TortoiseForum.org

Does anyone happen to know how many sub species are in the greek spur family now?

Hi George,
That is the HUGEST can of worms right now. We'll get into the species first. With all the DNA work done recently, there will definately be at least 2 species of greeks and maybe 4. The North African greeks will definately be a seperate species from the European and Middle eastern greeks. The European and Middle eastern greeks maybe further seperated into 3 species.
They have gone crazy in recent years elevating all subspecies to species rank, thats what prompted all the DNA work. On to subspecies.
With the North Africans there have been 6 named subspecies, that will at some point in time be dropped to 5 at most. There are,
T.g.graeca
T.g.soussensis
T.g.marokkensis
T.g.whitei
T.g.nabeulensis
T.g.cyrenaica

T.g.marokkensis and whitei will be lumped together and nabeulensis was already named before Highfield named it with the name mauritanica, so mauritanica takes presidence

I will get to the European and Middle eastern subspecies when I get back home.

Danny

egyptiandan Wrote:Hi George,
That is the HUGEST can of worms right now. We'll get into the species first. With all the DNA work done recently, there will definately be at least 2 species of greeks and maybe 4. The North African greeks will definately be a seperate species from the European and Middle eastern greeks. The European and Middle eastern greeks maybe further seperated into 3 species.
They have gone crazy in recent years elevating all subspecies to species rank, thats what prompted all the DNA work. On to subspecies.
With the North Africans there have been 6 named subspecies, that will at some point in time be dropped to 5 at most. There are,
T.g.graeca
T.g.soussensis
T.g.marokkensis
T.g.whitei
T.g.nabeulensis
T.g.cyrenaica

T.g.marokkensis and whitei will be lumped together and nabeulensis was already named before Highfield named it with the name mauritanica, so mauritanica takes presidence

I will get to the European and Middle eastern subspecies when I get back home.

Danny

Aaaaaaah! - I knew this one was a mine field but I had some inkling as to how bad it had got. For example there seem to be two types of Ibera now - the normal ones and the Southern Ibera. No doubt it will become more confusing in the future!!!

I'm back

So the North African list should be,
T.g.graeca
T.g.soussensis
T.g.marokkensis/whitei
T.g.mauritanica
T.g.cyrenaica

Now onto the European/Middle eastern greeks
Species wise it will probably be terrestris, zarudnyi and armeniaca but we'll stick with the old way first
Subspecies now are
T.g.ibera
T.g.terrestris
T.g.anamurensis
T.g.antakyensis
T.g.armeniaca
T.g.buxtoni
T.g.floweri
T.g.nikolskii
T.g.pallasi
T.g.perses
T.g.zarudnyi

The DNA work has shown that perses and buxtoni are indestinguishable, so buxtoni takes presidence. Floweri is invalid as it was never described properly and not sure if pallasi will hold up as wasn't included in the DNA work

With the new DNA work it will probably look like this
T.terrestris terrestris
T.t.anamurensis
T.t.antakyensis
T.t.ibera
T.t.nikolskii
T.t.ssp (Jordanian/Israeli formerly floweri)

T.zarudnyi zarudnyi
T.z.buxtoni

T.armeniaca armeniaca
T.a.pallasi

Danny

thanks for that Dan

Dan, other than he DNA are there ways to tell them apart, physical charateristics that the rest of us could notice?

Any sample pictures of the different ones?

Thanks,

Keith

There are physical charateristics to look for and I will post all the pictures I have with what to look for. Not sure if I should post crosses though, might confuse more but maybe not.
I'll do it soon

Danny

That will be interesting to see Danny. So which are the Golden boys going to be? Im assuming my Ibera male will be T. t. ibera?

The Golden boys will be T.t.terrestris as technically are all Goldens, but (you knew there was a but) I have seen what my animals have produced and what has been produced in mixed groups when it comes to Goldens. The DNA right now may say they are all the same, but thats not what I'm seeing with hatchlings.
With the way I have mine arranged the pairs produce all similar babies in a clutch. I have seen hatchlings from single clutches in mixed groups and you will get ones of each type in a clutch. That to me says they are different and thats why I have seperated mine.
Yes the ibera will be T.t.ibera.
So as not to make this thread huge, I will do each subspecies in it's own thread.

Danny

Thanks Danny.

Danny, I appreciate all the work you are putting into this. It will be interesting and an asset when you have posted, to see the differences in them all.
Thanks,

Not an easy question to answer but I'll ask it anyway . How 'different' are the sub species from each other? I know that some are more fragile than others and are more prone to illness if the climate is not just right and some are a bit bigger. Are they 'different' in the same way as a Greyhound is different to a Husky (essentially cosmetic - both are variations of the domestic dog) or is more significant than that?

Actually they are quite a bit different from each other George. There are a few that are just subtly, but most you can tell the difference by looking at the animal. As I post the subspecies you will be able to see what I mean.

Danny