TortoiseForum.org

[quote=livelycorpse]
Dudes and Dudettes, chill. LOL forget i asked.

No, you asked a good question that deserves an answer. But as has been brought out, there isn't a really clear one right now. However, I would rather err on the side of providing something (sunlight/UVB) that may not be, although probably is, needed for overall health.
RedfootNerd is growing some nice looking animals from hatchlings but there is more to the equation I think than that for long term maintenance. The redfoots very clearly seek out direct sunlight both in the wild and in captivity regardless of the temperature (unless it is extremely hot) and in my mind that is telling you something. So I provide it.
My only real issue on this thread is that I am not misquoted or misrepresented and that question is not oversimplified with blanket statements.

cdmay Wrote:[quote=livelycorpse]
Dudes and Dudettes, chill. LOL forget i asked.

No, you asked a good question that deserves an answer. But as has been brought out, there isn't a really clear one right now. However, I would rather err on the side of providing something (sunlight/UVB) that may not be, although probably is, needed for overall health.
RedfootNerd is growing some nice looking animals from hatchlings but there is more to the equation I think than that for long term maintenance. The redfoots very clearly seek out direct sunlight both in the wild and in captivity regardless of the temperature (unless it is extremely hot) and in my mind that is telling you something. So I provide it.
My only real issue on this thread is that I am not misquoted or misrepresented and that question is not oversimplified with blanket statements.

I agree 100% Carl.. when "keepers" do more research on the "native" environment and less research on 'forums' our beloved redfoots would fare much much better off!

It would take an ongoing "book" to provide tortoise needs.. and as you have told me.. "Much more to learn"!!! - 7/05.

For what it's worth.. the "un-edited" article [ submitted ] that appeared in the Sept. '06 issue of Reptiles magazine.. http://turtletary.com/gcarbonariabreeding.doc


In fact I spoke with a new keeper.. just the other day.. that met and spoke with Richard Cary Paull.. and commented that Richard said that he is now saying things about caring for redfoot tortoises that 30 years ago he didn't think he would ever say! Not exactly sure what that meant. But we were discussing the different UVB and DIET needs of different tortoises.. based on their native territory.

Although more are 'researching' BEFORE acquiring their tortoises.. we still hear - "I've got one.. what do I do now"? - much too often!

So Jake that was/is a good Q? that has created 'threads' 10 feet deep.. for at least 3 YEARS.. on every 'forum' out there.. and no doubt much longer!!!

Again thank you Carl for your statements about my "husbandry".. I've tried to follow your lead. And make statements based on observations and personal experience only.

My 'proven' females will be 10 years old [ raised from hatchlings ] this fall.. and overall produce like clockwork. So yes there is more to it than "blanket" statements. And I do provide an animal protein food source that claims to contain D3.

Itort Wrote:Here are few articles on forest torts : http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/trophab.html, http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/tropical.html, http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/fe...foots.html

These are the corrected links: http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/trophab.html http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/tropical.html I think these may shed some light on the lighting quandrey. What I see from these 10.0 and 08. UVB bulbs are overkill and a 05.0 is probably the best option. This is my opinion. One last thing I want to say is I got my RFs 35 years ago and I would have welcomed as spirited a discussion as this then instead blind luck as far as husbandry techiniques.

UVB is a pretty complicated topic- and I see a lot of people treat it very simplistically. A good site on several aspects of it is located at http://www.uvguide.co.uk.

Many reptiles seem to see UVB, but I can find no research or evidence that Red-foots or turtles in general can. (If anyone has seen research on this, please let me know.) Most tortoises avoid the sun when UV is at the highest, and the skin of the Red-foot is not consistent with species that need high levels of UVB. The critical vitamin D3 is the key element, and no one seems to have any clue what he necessary rate is for tortoises... I cannot even find a solid formula for determining calcium levels (ratios, yes- but not a recommended daily calcium intake formula.)

One interesting bit- the only commonly eaten vegetable that contains vitamin D is mushrooms- which not only contains more D per gram than meat, but is also relished by forest species. Of course, 'shrooms have almost no calcium in them.

Another interesting bit- a recent study showing no difference in growth in Red-ear Sliders with or without UVB (http://turtlesurvival.org/abstract07/3.htm) It does not really prove much for this debate, but it does suggest that a sun-loving species that eats at least a partially carnivorous diet does not depend on UVB to process calcium.

It seems like for every reason to offer UVB to Red-foots, there is a reason not to. Not only do we have the basic 'do they need it' issue, we also need to look at UVB lights- at least some of which seem to be causing problems (as per the above site).

A lot of keepers use high-output UVB lights all day, which does not simulate the changing levels of UVB in the wild very well, and a lot of tortoises avoid high UVB times of the day much of the year.

Personally- I think we tend to use UVB as a band-aid- 'it can't hurt' sort of thinking, and that the evidence of actual large-scale, long-term keepers/breeders seems to show that they don't 'need' it, but that there may nonetheless be a benefit to it, as long as it is not too intense. (I would love to know if the UVB lights themselves are the main benefit, or if it is more like people who offer UVB are offering higher levels of care overall!) I also think that the best option is to keep them outside and let them figure it out for themselves!

But this is just the 2 cents of a small-scale, short-term keeper who spends too much time on the net.

cdmay Wrote:[quote=Redfoot NERD]
Make note.. cdmay is referring mainly to "Southern" redfoots.. aka Cherryheads.

Actually Terry, the cherryheads are from Eastern Brazil and are not a 'southern' type. Although the Paraguayans are. But I was referring to redfoots in general.

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Also keep in mind that I'm the best part of 750 miles North of cdmay.. and mine ARE primarily Northerns.. whereas he is much further South and breeds ONLY Southerns!

That part isn't correct either as I have bred Colombian, Suriname, Guyana as well as the cherryheads. I have maintained but not bred redfoots from Bolivia and have kept redfoots from Barbados and Martinique during the 34 years I have kept G. carbonaria. All of these animals have behaved exactly the same in my experience when it comes to basking behavior.
It is true that NOW I only keep the cherryheads as I gave up the last of my Colombian animals a few years ago.
Just trying to keep the facts straight.

I used to have a Columbian male, but all my females are probably from Surinam or some other northern stock. My current males are both from Guyana stock. I hate mixing the types, but at least the Guyana males are closer to the females' origins than the Columbian male was.

They certainly do come out and bask on cool mornings. From what I've read these northern ones spend much of their time in more open areas than the yellowfoots that are primarily forest animals. Redfoots hang out along the gallery forests in the llanos, so they have access to both sun and shade. It's always best to give the animal a choice by giving them access to direct sunlight. The best UVB bulbs still pale in comparison with natural sunlight.

I've read a few field studies on redfoots in the llanos, and they do seek out carrion. In fact you can find them hunkered down under dead cows. I would expect that all tortoises would snack on a little beef jerky given the chance.

I've always kept the adults outside and provided calcium without D3. I raise all the babies indoors and supplement them with calcium with D3, but the juveniles always seem to do better if they get to spend time outdoors. I have never had a calcium problem and my females always lay good calicified eggs. I never supplement with dog or cat food, but they do enjoy a good romp in the Mazuri chow which probably gives them a little protein boost.

Lupita

cdmay Wrote:[quote=Redfoot NERD]
Make note.. cdmay is referring mainly to "Southern" redfoots.. aka Cherryheads.

Actually Terry, the cherryheads are from Eastern Brazil and are not a 'southern' type. Although the Paraguayans are. But I was referring to redfoots in general.

(Quote)
Also keep in mind that I'm the best part of 750 miles North of cdmay.. and mine ARE primarily Northerns.. whereas he is much further South and breeds ONLY Southerns!

That part isn't correct either as I have bred Colombian, Suriname, Guyana as well as the cherryheads. I have maintained but not bred redfoots from Bolivia and have kept redfoots from Barbados and Martinique during the 34 years I have kept G. carbonaria. All of these animals have behaved exactly the same in my experience when it comes to basking behavior.
It is true that NOW I only keep the cherryheads as I gave up the last of my Colombian animals a few years ago.
Just trying to keep the facts straight.

Carl I'm trying to determine the facts.. so we can keep them straight. I guess now we have to figure out where is North and where is South! I've always considered the Amazon river as the North-South line. So I consider the E. Brazilian's as Southern! Whether that's right or wrong isn't the issue.. just what I've always heard.. so that's what I meant when I said you breed only "Southern's".

AND since we are talking about NOW.. and I'm as far North as I am [ 750 miles of you Carl ].. the seasons are different.. so my redfoots act different than yours. How far South of Guyana is Bahia?

Interesting how this has become a geography thread.. I thought we were talking about UVB? See what I meant about threads 10 feet deep? Have we established their needs.. NO! Like Mark said.. ".. it can't hurt.. ". AND we can't even agree on that!

And Jake is probably sitting there laughing at us that don't even know how to spell........... Bye!

(quote)
AND since we are talking about NOW.. and I'm as far North as I am [ 750 miles of you Carl ].. the seasons are different.. so my redfoots act different than yours. How far South of Guyana is Bahia?

Um, I think my point has been missed........
Terry, it is IRRELEVANT where you or I live or what our seasons are.
The point I was trying to make was that wild redfoots tortoises, REGARDLESS of what population they are from, actively seek out and and bask in natural sunlight. As I mentioned, in my mind this means that there is obviously a reason for this behavior besides simple thermoregulation.
Also, if you recall, my original point was to correct the erroneous statements that redfoots are 'jungle' animals that lives in places that are covered in deep shade and therefore do not require or want sunlight. I felt this needed to corrected as it gives a very distorted view of the kind of habitat they come from.
A redfoot living in Tennessee, Florida or ANTARCTICA (!) is still a redfoot tortoise with the same requirements. The redfoots I have kept have been from all over the species' range--from the Caribbean, Colombia, Suriname, Guyana, E.Brazil, and Bolivia. But as I mentioned, they have ALL acted the same when it comes to basking behavior.
I get the impression that some feel that hatchling or young redfoots do not need natural or artificially provided sunlight for their well-being. This might be true of very young hatchlings that are naturally cryptic and spend much of their time hiding. However, soon they begin to bask as adults do. I know that mine do so pretty much from a month old on. In addition, while you may not provide UVB or natural sunlight for your very young animals, at SOME point you do as when they are large enough to go into your outdoor pens. Correct?
Lastly, when it comes to artificial lighting such as the commercial UVBs I would be very careful with them even though I would use them if I had too. For example, there are some very expensive, high output bulbs that are used for marine aquarium reef tanks. Of course these would be unsafe for the tortoises. And, as somebody already stated, many of the commercially available bulbs are entirely too powerful. You have to use common sense.

Oh yeah, please excuse my spelling, punctuation and grammer.

Ok, I have been following this thread and although I know little or nothing about RFs I have found if quite interesting. But now I have to chime in. Please let’s not get into spelling, punctuation and grammar or I won't be able to communicate on this forum any more. I am probably one of the worst around. If it wasn't for spell checks and thesauruses I couldn’t communicate at all.

I wasn't referring to Carl.. he knows how to spell Colombia [ South America ] and knows the difference between animal protein and plant protein...

Crazy1 Wrote:Ok, I have been following this thread and although I know little or nothing about RFs I have found if quite interesting. But now I have to chime in. Please let’s not get into spelling, punctuation and grammar or I won't be able to communicate on this forum any more. I am probably one of the worst around. If it wasn't for spell checks and thesauruses I couldn’t communicate at all.

Robyn what's that dinasore got to do with spelling & communicating?

Ok guys thanks for all the info, now... Who wants to give me a redfoot lol Seriously though, keep it lighthearted.

livelycorpse Wrote:Ok guys thanks for all the info, now... Who wants to give me a redfoot lol Seriously though, keep it lighthearted.

Just curious, Livelycorpse, where are you located?

Yvonne

I am located in Toronto, Ontario Yvonne, why do you ask?

Jake.

Redfoot NERD, You know they are the ones that started the whole communication thing??