04-29-2008, 05:20 AM
04-29-2008, 05:30 AM
Looking beyond the disease problems, what happens in a very short time when the Redfoot grows considerably larger than the Box? Most likely the Box will be stressed and bullied by what is now his "friend". Yes this two have already been together and most certainly could even live the rest of their lives together comfortably.
The question also comes up in my mind, are you wanting to breed these guys down the line? Meaning are you planning on getting another RF or/and another Boxie? If so, do you realize you could be causing future harm to those breeding plans with the added threat of the possible cross contamination already caused? These two may (so far) not show any adverse problems from sharing a home, but what if you spend the money and get a new RF for instance. Add her in with your current RF. She becomes sick because she can't handle something that perhaps the Boxie had brought into the situation. Then it could get things stirred up enough that the first two could suddenly not be able to handle what at this point seems a passive disease/germ and they could die. Bad scenario isn't it, unfortunately not entirely outside the realm of possible futures.
You never really fully know what all your animals have been exposed to before you get them. You rely on others to take the same careful precautions you do. Isn't it just smarter to do everything you can to minimize future risks?
I know it's nice to be able to give them both companionship. It's nice to be able to have only one setup for both of them, especially since their needs are so close to being the same. Unfortunately it's not optimal to do so. They are your animals and in the end only you can decide what to do with them. They could have no adverse problems from living together and others have done so with no troubles. By both being CB hatchlings, the chances of problems are even more reduced. It's just something you need to think about and then follow your own heart on.
The question also comes up in my mind, are you wanting to breed these guys down the line? Meaning are you planning on getting another RF or/and another Boxie? If so, do you realize you could be causing future harm to those breeding plans with the added threat of the possible cross contamination already caused? These two may (so far) not show any adverse problems from sharing a home, but what if you spend the money and get a new RF for instance. Add her in with your current RF. She becomes sick because she can't handle something that perhaps the Boxie had brought into the situation. Then it could get things stirred up enough that the first two could suddenly not be able to handle what at this point seems a passive disease/germ and they could die. Bad scenario isn't it, unfortunately not entirely outside the realm of possible futures.
You never really fully know what all your animals have been exposed to before you get them. You rely on others to take the same careful precautions you do. Isn't it just smarter to do everything you can to minimize future risks?
I know it's nice to be able to give them both companionship. It's nice to be able to have only one setup for both of them, especially since their needs are so close to being the same. Unfortunately it's not optimal to do so. They are your animals and in the end only you can decide what to do with them. They could have no adverse problems from living together and others have done so with no troubles. By both being CB hatchlings, the chances of problems are even more reduced. It's just something you need to think about and then follow your own heart on.
04-29-2008, 05:35 AM
terryo Wrote:I don't get it. They were both hatchlings...neither was sick. As hatchlings, wouldn't they be hiding on the forest floor? Under leaves or logs or dug under? They both need high humidity. They have been together for months now and Pio follows her around like a puppy. Terry, you have to give me a good reason...please. The Three Toed now is eating greens because of Pio. If she was alone she wouldn't be up to that yet. Just give me a good reason. I won't mention names, (for some reason you two don't get along in your way of raising RF's), but by his comment on another forum, he seemed to think it was OK. I really want to learn....so give me some good reasons why not.
Even if they are captive bred and hatchlings, all bodies have micro-organisms inside of them. Over the ages, each specie has developed a tolerance to the kinds of micro-organisms it comes across and they live just fine with them. But if you put another turtle/tortoise with one from a different continent, and they come in contact with those "other" micro-organisms, your turtle or tortoise could become sick and even die. The problem is, it won't happen today or tomorrow. It will take so long to happen that you won't associate the sickness with the fact that the turtle has been living with the tortoise for the past few years.
Yvonne
04-29-2008, 06:20 AM
Thank you Jacq. & Yvon. - I get tired of saying what you said.
It becomes very trying.. as I'm occasionally thought to be "heated" by it all ------ nah!..... much too old for that!!! In order of caring or being concerned..... the tortoise's comes first! [ in most cases ] That's the only reason I'm here.
So I'll say this:
[ IF ] Ignorance is not knowing.. stupidity is defending it.
Some keepers choose to be educated.. some choose to be stupid. And it's obvious which is which.
The tortoises don't have that choice.
Thanks again ladies!
It becomes very trying.. as I'm occasionally thought to be "heated" by it all ------ nah!..... much too old for that!!! In order of caring or being concerned..... the tortoise's comes first! [ in most cases ] That's the only reason I'm here.
So I'll say this:
[ IF ] Ignorance is not knowing.. stupidity is defending it.
Some keepers choose to be educated.. some choose to be stupid. And it's obvious which is which.
The tortoises don't have that choice.
Thanks again ladies!
04-29-2008, 03:32 PM
Chucky, I know you where just joking. I was too.
I was waitng for you to reply to this thread Terry. Its like ok lets watch and learn. I like to leave the teaching to the old folks 8' ).
I was waitng for you to reply to this thread Terry. Its like ok lets watch and learn. I like to leave the teaching to the old folks 8' ).
04-29-2008, 04:35 PM
So I'll say this:
[ IF ] Ignorance is not knowing.. stupidity is defending it.
Some keepers choose to be educated.. some choose to be stupid. And it's obvious which is which.
I hope you didn't mean me, Terry. This post was intended as a question, for my learning benefit.
Thanks for all the replies to my question. If you read my post, you would see that I said that I was only keeping them together until the summer when Pio goes outside. The Three Toed, I will put out (under my supervision) for a little bit during the day to get some sun. In my opinion, she is too small to go out alone all summer. Also I know they can't be together, since one will get much bigger than the other.....etc. This is only for the hatchling stage. The reason I asked was to learn, which I am always willing to, as this is my first tortoise.
That being said, I am not new to boxies, as my oldest Eastern, is over 50 years. I got him when I was a kid and raised him, and he lived in my parents yard for as long as I can remember. My sister lives there now and he is still there. He never was sick. My own Ornate, is in her 30's, and is still doing great and lives outside in a pen.
My oldest water turtle is over 21, and now lives in my sisters pond, as I converted my big pond into a Koi pond. So, you can see, I am not too new to the turtle world.
What does confuse me, is that on other forums, some never said this was a bad thing, and I was also told that my three toed and cherry head looked flawless. Also it was not such a bad thing to keep them together, as some people do this when the requirements are the same.
Maybe it's like the UVB question....do you need it or don't you. On another forum, there was a thread a mile long about that.
Thank you all for the replies.
[ IF ] Ignorance is not knowing.. stupidity is defending it.
Some keepers choose to be educated.. some choose to be stupid. And it's obvious which is which.
I hope you didn't mean me, Terry. This post was intended as a question, for my learning benefit.
Thanks for all the replies to my question. If you read my post, you would see that I said that I was only keeping them together until the summer when Pio goes outside. The Three Toed, I will put out (under my supervision) for a little bit during the day to get some sun. In my opinion, she is too small to go out alone all summer. Also I know they can't be together, since one will get much bigger than the other.....etc. This is only for the hatchling stage. The reason I asked was to learn, which I am always willing to, as this is my first tortoise.
That being said, I am not new to boxies, as my oldest Eastern, is over 50 years. I got him when I was a kid and raised him, and he lived in my parents yard for as long as I can remember. My sister lives there now and he is still there. He never was sick. My own Ornate, is in her 30's, and is still doing great and lives outside in a pen.
My oldest water turtle is over 21, and now lives in my sisters pond, as I converted my big pond into a Koi pond. So, you can see, I am not too new to the turtle world.
What does confuse me, is that on other forums, some never said this was a bad thing, and I was also told that my three toed and cherry head looked flawless. Also it was not such a bad thing to keep them together, as some people do this when the requirements are the same.
Maybe it's like the UVB question....do you need it or don't you. On another forum, there was a thread a mile long about that.
Thank you all for the replies.
04-29-2008, 08:21 PM
terryo Wrote:So I'll say this:
[ IF ] Ignorance is not knowing.. stupidity is defending it.
Some keepers choose to be educated.. some choose to be stupid. And it's obvious which is which.
I hope you didn't mean me, Terry. This post was intended as a question, for my learning benefit.
Thanks for all the replies to my question. If you read my post, you would see that I said that I was only keeping them together until the summer when Pio goes outside. The Three Toed, I will put out (under my supervision) for a little bit during the day to get some sun. In my opinion, she is too small to go out alone all summer. Also I know they can't be together, since one will get much bigger than the other.....etc. This is only for the hatchling stage. The reason I asked was to learn, which I am always willing to, as this is my first tortoise.
That being said, I am not new to boxies, as my oldest Eastern, is over 50 years. I got him when I was a kid and raised him, and he lived in my parents yard for as long as I can remember. My sister lives there now and he is still there. He never was sick. My own Ornate, is in her 30's, and is still doing great and lives outside in a pen.
My oldest water turtle is over 21, and now lives in my sisters pond, as I converted my big pond into a Koi pond. So, you can see, I am not too new to the turtle world.
What does confuse me, is that on other forums, some never said this was a bad thing, and I was also told that my three toed and cherry head looked flawless. Also it was not such a bad thing to keep them together, as some people do this when the requirements are the same.
Maybe it's like the UVB question....do you need it or don't you. On another forum, there was a thread a mile long about that.
Thank you all for the replies.
Terry you just justified why you are doing what you are doing! And you'll believe what you want to believe. That's why anyone "surfs" the forums until they find one that tells them what they want to hear.
So.... I hope you didn't mean me, Terry. This post was intended as a question, for my learning benefit.
... Terry you've had those [ on this forum ] that keep virtually every 'species' known tell you that "mixing" species is WRONG! We're waiting to hear you tell us that you have now seperated and will never again house together.. different species! [ age has nothing to do with anything! ]
Well.. have you learned?
Nerd
04-30-2008, 04:34 AM
Yes in a way it is like the UV question or hibernation or just about anything that has to do with tortoises. There is no one thing written in stone, that you can't find somebody who has broken the rule and gotten lucky that their animal had no noticeable problems with it. The key is often the noticeable part.
I think too many of us have either had or known folks that had the bad outcomes and want to spare every tortoise keeper and their charges from the experiences. Often we write these posts more for the other folks who may be thinking of doing the same thing, not so much for the person who has already done it.
As I said in my post, they are your animals, you have the finial say in how they will be cared for.
I think too many of us have either had or known folks that had the bad outcomes and want to spare every tortoise keeper and their charges from the experiences. Often we write these posts more for the other folks who may be thinking of doing the same thing, not so much for the person who has already done it.
As I said in my post, they are your animals, you have the finial say in how they will be cared for.
04-30-2008, 08:29 AM
I don't think any reptile needs company but the interaction of more than one animal can add another dimension to the mix.
As to the mixing of species... They're your animals... I don't care if you mix em... use em as bait... or eat em.
If you don't want to be criticised about the practice... don't advertise it.
Is it wrong to mix species... I don't think so. Some folks seem to think that each species has their own individual set of parasites. They are kind of right because there are parasites that are species specific. There are also some species that seem to deal better with parasites than others. If you are dealing with captive born and raised animals this is a moot point. If you quarentine and treat the animals involved... it is also a moot point.
There can be added risks in keeping different species together... again... it's the keepers choice. I don't see how this can be considered cruel if the animals are fairing well.
I could never understand why it is acceptable to mix water turtles and not tortoises...
![[Image: ybs_and_southern_painteds281.jpg]](http://xs226.xs.to/xs226/08183/ybs_and_southern_painteds281.jpg)
There are two species on that log and I know there are at least 5 different species in that pond.
There are species I mix and there are species I don't mix... it all depends on each individual situation.
![[Image: breaking_bread184.jpg]](http://xs226.xs.to/xs226/08183/breaking_bread184.jpg)
As to the mixing of species... They're your animals... I don't care if you mix em... use em as bait... or eat em.
If you don't want to be criticised about the practice... don't advertise it.
Is it wrong to mix species... I don't think so. Some folks seem to think that each species has their own individual set of parasites. They are kind of right because there are parasites that are species specific. There are also some species that seem to deal better with parasites than others. If you are dealing with captive born and raised animals this is a moot point. If you quarentine and treat the animals involved... it is also a moot point.
There can be added risks in keeping different species together... again... it's the keepers choice. I don't see how this can be considered cruel if the animals are fairing well.
I could never understand why it is acceptable to mix water turtles and not tortoises...
There are two species on that log and I know there are at least 5 different species in that pond.
There are species I mix and there are species I don't mix... it all depends on each individual situation.
04-30-2008, 09:00 AM
-EJ Wrote:I don't think any reptile needs company but the interaction of more than one animal can add another dimension to the mix.
There are species I mix and there are species I don't mix... it all
Hi Ed: I wondered why you were being so quiet on this subject. We've had many a discussion about it!!
Yvonne
04-30-2008, 09:01 AM
emysemys@pacbell.net Wrote:-EJ Wrote:I don't think any reptile needs company but the interaction of more than one animal can add another dimension to the mix.
There are species I mix and there are species I don't mix... it all
Hi Ed: I wondered why you were being so quiet on this subject. We've had many a discussion about it!!
Yvonne
I forgot to mention that the water turtles in that pond all come from the same continent. We were talking about not mixing species from different continents.
Yvonne
04-30-2008, 09:07 AM
Sometimes when you have one baby and he doesn't eat and doesn't seem to be doing well, adding another baby to the habitat will make him perk up and do better. I think its the old competition-for-the-food thing.
But tortoises are solitary animals and really don't require another tortoise to keep them company. They don't want to have to share the best hiding place or share their food. There are some tortoises that seem to get along with having more of the same in their pen, and there are some the are just downright mean to another tortoise. It is very possible to keep more than one tortoise together in the same pen, but is it necessary? No.
Yvonne
But tortoises are solitary animals and really don't require another tortoise to keep them company. They don't want to have to share the best hiding place or share their food. There are some tortoises that seem to get along with having more of the same in their pen, and there are some the are just downright mean to another tortoise. It is very possible to keep more than one tortoise together in the same pen, but is it necessary? No.
Yvonne
04-30-2008, 09:10 AM
Why would that make a difference. The Leopard and the boxie is not native to the UK. Actually... if you think about it... that's the ideal situation to mix species.
Again... don't loose the point. I'm not advocating mixing species. For the most part I don't think it is a good idea but at the same time I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with it.
People created the concept of species... people like to pigeon hole items...
It's my opinion that there is nothing wrong with the practice under certain circumstances.
Again... don't loose the point. I'm not advocating mixing species. For the most part I don't think it is a good idea but at the same time I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with it.
People created the concept of species... people like to pigeon hole items...
It's my opinion that there is nothing wrong with the practice under certain circumstances.
emysemys@pacbell.net Wrote:emysemys@pacbell.net Wrote:-EJ Wrote:I don't think any reptile needs company but the interaction of more than one animal can add another dimension to the mix.
There are species I mix and there are species I don't mix... it all
Hi Ed: I wondered why you were being so quiet on this subject. We've had many a discussion about it!!
Yvonne
I forgot to mention that the water turtles in that pond all come from the same continent. We were talking about not mixing species from different continents.
Yvonne
04-30-2008, 09:40 AM
Percy played with a yellow lab and a miniature bulldog the other day - under my supervision. He was trying to eat their tennis ball and they sat back and watched him with their heads titled until I took it away from him - he was actually making progress on eating the yellow fuzz.
I think my tortoise has FICA.
I think my tortoise has FICA.
04-30-2008, 09:46 AM
That is soooooooo wrong... even I have limits as to mixing species... wait... no I don't... I never have to pick up after my Rottie... if you know what I mean.
Ed
Ed
janiedough Wrote:Percy played with a yellow lab and a miniature bulldog the other day - under my supervision. He was trying to eat their tennis ball and they sat back and watched him with their heads titled until I took it away from him - he was actually making progress on eating the yellow fuzz.
I think my tortoise has FICA.