seperate them because they are different subspecies! and with them being different subspecies, then oven moreso that that they're male/female because you don't want to cross breed like that!

Not to open a can of worms.. but don't they naturally cross breed in the wild? Originally dan said that he thought my t. g. antakyensis was a natural cross between that and t. g. terrestris.

yah i dunno! LOL I was just saying what I heard! Danny can shed some insight!

Yes it does happen in the wild.
When you have a subspecies thats pure there is no need to breed it to another subspecies though. It's actually something I try not to do. but if your not paying attention it happens. It did to me this past fall. I got a large female Greek in August last year. From her size and her look I thought she was a T.g.ibera and never gave it a second thought or a second look which I should have done. She didn't quite look like my other ibera, but ibera have a huge range and have many variations. When I brought her in, in the fall, I put her in with one on my male ibera. Well they bred and she laid eggs, 3 clutches (11 eggs total). Only 2 were fertile and only 1 hatched. The hatchling was huge and didn't do well. He died 5 days after he hatched. Well with the fertility rate being so poor and the hatchling not doing well I knew they weren't a well matched pair. I was on the look out for a male that matched her better and it so happened that hermannichris had a male that I thought matched her perfectly.
I got the male and I've had him for a bit. With all my animals I never sat down and really checked him out. Well I did the other day. I was watching him and really paying attention to what he looked like. I noticed that his last vertebral scute looked big, bigger than the rest.
So I measured and yes it was the biggest scute, so that made him a T.g.antakyensis. I was kind of blown away. He was I know from Turkey as I know who owned him before Chris. This was the biggest T.g.antakyensis I had ever seen at 7 inches and the books say thats as big as they get. Well I went and looked at the female I got in August and measured her scutes. Wouldn't you know she's T.g.antakyensis too Now she's the biggest T.g.antakyensis I've ever seen at 9.5 inches So now I have T.g.antakyensis from their whole range. This just goes to show how bad fertility rates can be when you cross subspecies.
If you already had the crosses than thats another story. They did this in the wild and the area that they are from is already mixed, so there probably aren't many new crosses of the subspecies. Just matings between the crosses.

Danny

Danny here's another question on crosses. If you have say a cross between a T.g.Antakyensis and a Jordanian/Israeli
Who would you mate it with if you didn't have another T.g.Antakyensis and Jordanian/Israeli cross? Or would you look for another cross? An not mate until one is found?

If I can help it and don't mis-identify, I always wait till I can find a match for my animals. I have a few males that have never been paired up because I can't find a match or more females.
I waited 10 years to pair up my large female T.g.ibera to a male that was her match in color. Thats the pair that produced all the hatchlings last year.

Danny

Make sense, however if one likes the traits of the Jordanians, then could you mate a cross to bring out (hopefully) the traits of jordanians or would you just wait for another Jordanian?

If I can help it and don't mis-identify, I always wait till I can find a match for my animals. I have a few males that have never been paired up because I can't find a match or more females.
I waited 10 years to pair up my large female T.g.ibera to a male that was her match in color. Thats the pair that produced all the hatchlings last year.

Danny

There have been lots of Jordanians around lately, so if that's what you want, you'll find one soon! There is a Jordanian male sitting at a petstore here in my town right now. He's gorgeous and I was tempted to get him, but I have 1.1 Jordanians and really would have nothing to do with another male... Although I"m concerned Dozer's "maleness" won't be enough to breed with Zelda - he has such a "blunt" tail... Is that ever an issue?

Hi Dan,

Do hybrids have health problems? are they sterile?

It shouldn't be a problem at all Kelly.

George they can have health problems, but they don't always. Usually crosses (breeding between subspecies) do well and are fertile. I think it says a lot that most of my eggs from the pairing of 2 supposed subspecies weren't fertile and the ones that were fertile had trouble as did the one hatchling. Hybrids (breeding between species) in tortoises don't always do well and fertility rates are way down. I know crosses are fertile, but not sure whether hybrids are fertile or not.

Danny