# What is the physiology behind pyramiding?



## lpcullum

This is just because I'm curious, and like to learn about this stuff, so don't hold back! What causes the shell to form the way it does normally? And why does the keratin stack the way it does when there is a nutritional issue?


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## Tom

Intra and extra cellular hydraulic pressure is the theory that I have seen.

The keratin and underlying bone does not malform due to nutritional issues. It malforms due to excessive dryness from the inside and out. This is the primary cause of pyramiding. Other issues can accelerate it or complicate it, but this is the main issue.


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## Yvonne G

There was a very good thread about this just a short while ago. Maybe Jaizei can find it for us. He's real good at that.

We do have this thread in the "important threads" section of the Health section:

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-41201.html

But the one I'm thinking of was just a post in someone else's thread and it gave a very good explanation and easy to understand.


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## Testudoresearch

Tom,

I have read your reports of your experiences with G. pardalis and G. sulcata in various threads posted here. I note you recommend rearing in a high humidity environment. Your results are interesting, and I applaud your tenacity in pursuing this research. Your results are meaningful and useful. However.... I do believe that you may be misinterpreting certain causes and effects. I also note that you state, above, that you believe in some form not only of external, but some form of "internal" or"cellular" dehydration as one of the causes. This would be quite remarkable, because physiologically, it would be unique in the animal kingdom. No such process is known to science. Living cells, within an organism, are invariably in a state of homeostasis - and if dehydrated to the point of "collapse", as proponents of the theory you appear to subscribe to suggest, then they would be no longer living cells, but dead cells. There is no cytological evidence, anywhere, that this is occurring.

The areas just below the outer keratin are very well supplied by numerous blood vessels. The underlying bone too, is also well supplied and is invariably at homeostasis. If any localised "drying" did take place at that level, it would cause cell death and localised necrosis. Examination of numerous 'pyramided' carapaces fails to reveal any such condition.

So, I think we have to look beyond that theory (which remains a theory, as absolutely no-one has produced a sliver of real, hard evidence to support it). This is particularly important when a theory contradicts the established physiological and biological sciences. 

I have two questions.

The first concerns Leopard tortoises in the wild which exhibit a type of raised scute phenomenon. I note you have said that you believe these are most probably ex-captives that have been released into the wild? (I hope I am not misquoting you here). While I have no count that this does occur (I have studied G. pardalis in South Africa), I believe it highly improbable it accounts for all of them - by a long way. Furthermore, there are numerous specimens in natural history museums, some dating back almost 200 years, that display identical scute formations. These were collected, in many cases from extremely remote areas, long before anyone, anywhere was keeping these animals in captivity. This is significant evidence. In the same context, it is useful to look at another species from the same part of the world, Psammobates tentorius (the Tent tortoise). These display, as a matter of course, very similar scute formations to some of these wild Leopards tortoises. Clearly, they are not all ex-captives, and again, we have collection material going back a very long way. It is quite clearly normal for them - not a result of any pathology or incorrect environment. How do they fit into the scheme of things, and if it is normal for them, why is not possible that it might also be normal for some populations of G. pardalis? 

My second question is more of a practical nature. You are using a very high humidity environment to rear G. pardalis. I understand you have seen these natural habitats... if so, you must surely recognise that the environment you are using is totally different from that in the wild. It is, in general, a semi-arid, scrubby habitat. Finding pockets of high humidity in that habitat is very, very difficult. I have recorded the actual conditions right next to both juvenile and adult wild Leopard tortoises, and typically, RH ranges from 35-60% for most of the year. Very high levels are only seen at certain times of year, during and immediately following rain. For most of the time, RH is in the 40-50% range. 

So as far as this goes, I have to question why people feel that such an entirely different set of microclimate conditions from that in the wild are needed in captivity? Surely, it should not be necessary. An intensely artificial method is being used here that bears almost no relation to conditions this species experiences in nature, in its natural habitat. It is important to enquire why, and what else is going wrong that demands such an approach?

Thank you for your time. I do believe these are important questions that all serious keepers and investigators have an interest in seeing addressed.


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## Yvonne G

Hi T.R. and Welcome to the Forum!

I can speak to the second question - you say you've tested the humidity around *juvenile* and adult tortoises. We only recommend the high humidity approach for the first year of life. Baby leopard/sulcata tortoises hatch out during the monsoon season when there is plenty of grassy ground cover and the ground is fairly wet. So, the humidity/pyramid issue starts at birth and is usually set by the time they reach about a year of age.


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## Testudoresearch

Yvonne G said:


> Hi T.R. and Welcome to the Forum!
> 
> I can speak to the second question - you say you've tested the humidity around juvenile and adult tortoises. We only recommend the high humidity approach for the first year of life. Baby leopard/sulcata tortoises hatch out during the monsoon season when there is plenty of grassy ground cover and the ground is fairly wet. So, the humidity/pyramid issue starts at birth and is usually set by the time they reach about a year of age.



They actually tend to hatch during the very first rain or two of the season, as the ground saturates somewhat causing O2 levels in the nest and in the egg to fall dramatically, prompting emergence. This species does have a very large range, of course, and so climate generalizations are dangerous, but.... your description of climatic conditions does not concur with my observations. I studied them in Namibia (among other places), for example, where there are two periods in the year when rainfall is likely (it is quite a drought ridden area, so these are by no means a certainly), but typically there will be some rain from September-November, then again from February-April (approximately). Between these periods the ground is pretty dry, and humidity very low. There is most categorically no period of 'constant' high humidity. There are approximately 300 days of sunshine a year. Rain usually lasts for a few days at most, then dries off very quickly. It is formally classed as a semi-arid environment with a maximum annual rainfall of 600mm. This occurs in very intense downpours typically, interspersed with long-lasting, very dry periods. To put this into context, the precipitation in that locality is only twice that of AZ in the US, and is very similar to that seen in much of Testudo habitat in Southern Europe. It is not a vastly dissimilar pattern in many other habitats occupied by G. pardalis throughout its range. Periods of 'high humidity' are therefore very limited in duration. Certainly none of the areas either in Namibia or elsewhere in South Africa where I personally have studied this species have anything I would describe as a sustained period of very high humidity. They are found predominantly in dry, grassy/scrubby habitats that for most of the year are really very arid indeed, with the exception of periodic rainfall as above. 

It is always difficult to really understand a habitat from mere figures. Tortoises are superb at utilizing microclimates, and have a highly developed set of behavioral tools which they use to maximum advantage. I highly recommend not drawing too many conclusions from generalized weather and climate data, but to try to visit such habitats in person, as only then do you really begin to get an accurate picture of what is going on.


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## nearpass

Wolfgang Wegehaupt, author of Naturalistic Keeping and Breeding Hermann's Tortoises has a good perspective here:

http://www.testudo-farm.de/html/formation_of_humps.html


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## Yvonne G

Testudoresearch said:


> I highly recommend not drawing too many conclusions from generalized weather and climate data, but to try to visit such habitats in person, as only then do you really begin to get an accurate picture of what is going on.



I was repeating information that I gleaned from a person who actually lives in Africa and operates a sulcata reserve...Tomas Diagne.


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## julietteq

Testudoresearch said:


> Tom,
> 
> I have read your reports of your experiences with G. pardalis and G. sulcata in various threads posted here. I note you recommend rearing in a high humidity environment. Your results are interesting, and I applaud your tenacity in pursuing this research. Your results are meaningful and useful. However.... I do believe that you may be misinterpreting certain causes and effects. I also note that you state, above, that you believe in some form not only of external, but some form of "internal" or"cellular" dehydration as one of the causes. This would be quite remarkable, because physiologically, it would be unique in the animal kingdom. No such process is known to science. Living cells, within an organism, are invariably in a state of homeostasis - and if dehydrated to the point of "collapse", as proponents of the theory you appear to subscribe to suggest, then they would be no longer living cells, but dead cells. There is no cytological evidence, anywhere, that this is occurring.
> 
> The areas just below the outer keratin are very well supplied by numerous blood vessels. The underlying bone too, is also well supplied and is invariably at homeostasis. If any localised "drying" did take place at that level, it would cause cell death and localised necrosis. Examination of numerous 'pyramided' carapaces fails to reveal any such condition.
> 
> So, I think we have to look beyond that theory (which remains a theory, as absolutely no-one has produced a sliver of real, hard evidence to support it). This is particularly important when a theory contradicts the established physiological and biological sciences.
> 
> I have two questions.
> 
> The first concerns Leopard tortoises in the wild which exhibit a type of raised scute phenomenon. I note you have said that you believe these are most probably ex-captives that have been released into the wild? (I hope I am not misquoting you here). While I have no count that this does occur (I have studied G. pardalis in South Africa), I believe it highly improbable it accounts for all of them - by a long way. Furthermore, there are numerous specimens in natural history museums, some dating back almost 200 years, that display identical scute formations. These were collected, in many cases from extremely remote areas, long before anyone, anywhere was keeping these animals in captivity. This is significant evidence. In the same context, it is useful to look at another species from the same part of the world, Psammobates tentorius (the Tent tortoise). These display, as a matter of course, very similar scute formations to some of these wild Leopards tortoises. Clearly, they are not all ex-captives, and again, we have collection material going back a very long way. It is quite clearly normal for them - not a result of any pathology or incorrect environment. How do they fit into the scheme of things, and if it is normal for them, why is not possible that it might also be normal for some populations of G. pardalis?
> 
> My second question is more of a practical nature. You are using a very high humidity environment to rear G. pardalis. I understand you have seen these natural habitats... if so, you must surely recognise that the environment you are using is totally different from that in the wild. It is, in general, a semi-arid, scrubby habitat. Finding pockets of high humidity in that habitat is very, very difficult. I have recorded the actual conditions right next to both juvenile and adult wild Leopard tortoises, and typically, RH ranges from 35-60% for most of the year. Very high levels are only seen at certain times of year, during and immediately following rain. For most of the time, RH is in the 40-50% range.
> 
> So as far as this goes, I have to question why people feel that such an entirely different set of microclimate conditions from that in the wild are needed in captivity? Surely, it should not be necessary. An intensely artificial method is being used here that bears almost no relation to conditions this species experiences in nature, in its natural habitat. It is important to enquire why, and what else is going wrong that demands such an approach?
> 
> Thank you for your time. I do believe these are important questions that all serious keepers and investigators have an interest in seeing addressed.



Very interesting! I have tried to create a table that allows for a very humid climate, to a dry one and everything in between. The torts themselves can decide where they want to be. I am keeping track of how much time each tortoise spends in each habitat. For a setup of my enclosure you can check http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-84008.html


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## Neal

Testudoresearch - I was excited to read your posts as the questions you have asked are ones that I keep challenging myself with having raised smooth tortoises in non-high humid environments. And reading that you have apparently done some detailed research on wild leopard tortoises, I find absolutely fascinating. 

Let me ask you a general question. What do you believe causes and/or influences pyramiding in tortoises? If you have a theory (or theories), have you any pictures or data as support that you could share with us?


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## Testudoresearch

Yvonne G said:


> Testudoresearch said:
> 
> 
> 
> I highly recommend not drawing too many conclusions from generalized weather and climate data, but to try to visit such habitats in person, as only then do you really begin to get an accurate picture of what is going on.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I was repeating information that I gleaned from a person who actually lives in Africa and operates a sulcata reserve...Tomas Diagne.
Click to expand...


That is a very different locality (Senegal) indeed than G. pardalis inhabit. Totally different - a huge distance away. When referencing tortoise habitats, even a few miles can have a massive impact, due to coastal influences and particularly altitude effects. I could take you to some localities with very high density Testudo populations, but if you look only 7 miles away, there are none at all. The maximum-minimum temperatures are different, precipitation is different, and average humidity levels are different. So different that one area offers an evidently very good set of climatic conditions, but the other area does not. Exactly the same situation applies in other habitats. G. sulcata also has a different behavior pattern, utilizing very deep burrows, whereas G. pardalis uses shallow scrapes... the microclimates they experience are utterly dissimilar. It is also important to take into account that within Senegal you find both G. sulcata and Kinixys belliana - reflecting the range of climatic variability and microclimates available.


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## Saleama

Interestingly enough, with the tent tortoise, the ones from the drier areas happen to be the smoothest? Still, I have been using the humid method with Leopards and Sulcatas in the exact same conditions and I am seeing pretty smooth leopards and not a whole lot of pyramiding in the Sulcatas started humid and noticable decreases in the ones started dry. Of course, I can only speak for my very limited number of animals and the short time I have had them, five months.


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## Testudoresearch

Saleama said:


> Interestingly enough, with the tent tortoise, the ones from the drier areas happen to be the smoothest? Still, I have been using the humid method with Leopards and Sulcatas in the exact same conditions and I am seeing pretty smooth leopards and not a whole lot of pyramiding in the Sulcatas started humid and noticable decreases in the ones started dry. Of course, I can only speak for my very limited number of animals and the short time I have had them, five months.



I am not really trying to dispute the fact that the development of scutes can be affected by varying levels of humidity - especially at both extremes, very dry and very wet. The empirical evidence is pretty convincing that it can be, and furthermore, there are straightforward physical reasons as to how and why this is possible. None of these answers requires breaking any established laws of either physiology or materials science.

What does concern me is where recourse is made to claims which are not accurate, and where conclusions are drawn that have absolutely no evidence to support them. Indeed, in some instances, all available evidence flatly contradicts the claims being made. Also, some of these conclusions can be very damaging to the long-term health of the animals involved. It also concerns me greatly that broad claims are often made which are incredibly easy to disprove conclusively, yet those claims gain wide acceptance among many keepers. One such example of this is that a high humidity rearing environment is "necessary" to produce excellent, smooth growth in tortoises. This is categorically untrue. I am quite happy to post photos of a number of species I have personally captive-bred over the years, not one of which was subjected to these artificial high humidity conditions and which I feel are good examples of what can be achieved without employing such methods. 

The article by Wolfgang is interesting, because he does at least illustrate the critical difference between a pathological 'pyramiding' typical of animals raised on poor diets and in poor conditions in captivity and a class of 'pyramiding' that may be seen in apparently 100% healthy wild tortoises living in their natural habitat (G. pardalis being one example where this occurs). The bone sections are particularly revealing, and fully match my own findings in that regard.

I have some very interesting (similar) sections of G. pardalis and G. sulcata skeletal material, also many hundreds of examples of various Testudo.


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## wellington

I would love to see pictures of your smooth tortoises. Also, with description of where you live and how you did raise them. Raising a leopard smooth in Florida is much easier then raising one in Arizona. Although,we have seen torts raised in Florida that does not benefit from some of the methods mention on this forum and they have pyramiding, where others, that do benefit from the suggestions of this forum don't. The high humidity way works for the different areas that we all live. If we all lived in Africa we probably wouldn't have to give such a high humidity if we left our torts to live outside and let them roam the whole range of area they naturally have. Duplicating the wide range available to them in the wild is impossible to duplicate in captivity. Keeping them as pets, prevents most or all if us from wanting to just let them loose in an area to fend for themselves.
It also depends on what some consider smooth. A couple other members, have experimented with different ways of raising smooth leopards and have admitted that theirs are not as smooth as Toms and his closed chambers high humidity. My leopard, unfortunately was raised with the natural humidity of my house for about 6 months of his life and has pyramiding. 
Proper diet and hydration is an important factor, but the results of the high humidity speaks for itself. I sure would hate for people to go back to low or no humidity, just to have a bunch of unnatural pyramiding tortoises being the end result.


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## StarSapphire22

I'm not very science-y and I'm fairly new to tortoises...but what if humidity, daily soaks, and hydration ARE helping prevent pyramiding, but not at a cellular level as you asked about before? Could it be aiding in digestion and therefore the absorption of nutrients, or other processes like that? Being very well hydrated has been proven to be beneficial in many species (duh)...for instance, I probably don't drink as much water as I should and eat and drink a lot of dehydrating foods, but I feel noticeably better when well hydrated. It's not necessarily that I am DEhydrated normally, but function better when I am focused on staying hydrated. By forcing our tortoises to stay in environments that aren't drying to the skin/keratin/whatever (obviously, you'd stay better hydrated in a rainforest than a desert), "force hydrating" them in daily soaks, and having water available at all times, we're keeping their body at a higher functioning level, aren't we? It makes sense then, that most, if not all, of their bodily processes would be functioning better by staying hydrated and these processes combined could be helping to prevent pyramiding. 

Maybe these aren't "natural conditions," but when kept in a back yard or small indoor pen, tortoises can't take advantage of the various microclimates they would have access to in the wild.


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## nearpass

It was presented to me several years ago by a European tortoise keeper, the source I do not remember, that 'over feeding' and too rapid growth contribute to excessive pyramiding in captive tortoises. By over feeding, I mean that in captivity our animals have to work very little for foods that may well be much more nutrient dense than what they would ever scrounge for much of the time in the wild. I suspect many captive raise animals have accelerated growth compared to wild roaming ones, and much less exercise is involved in their finding food. This is certainly not the complete picture, and I am no biologist, but might it not play a part?


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## Team Gomberg

The OP isn't doubting that high humidity in a closed chamber produces a smooth shell. He is doubting that raising them in high humidity for the first year mimic's their natural environment. 
Is this correct?
Let's make sure we discuss the correct point. 

When you take temperature and humidity readings, what level do you sample? Measuring from 6' above the ground will have different readings than measuring under a bush or at the base of thick grass. The moisture at the leopard hatchling level is much higher.

@ nearpass, do we "know" that wild ones grow slower than captive ones? I'm not asking sarcastically. I want to know if any studies can prove this. It seems like we assume this. 
The smaller you are in the wild, the longer you are lower on the food chain. This makes me think they aren't as slow growing as some claim. Especially when we see how fast they grow in good conditions. There are also those who have been free fed that are smooth and ones with restricted food intake that are pyramided.

I'd love to see any information that documents wild hatchling growth, one way or the other.


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## wellington

Heather, maybe some clarity is needed. I took it that the high humidity (80%)is not what they would naturally get in the wild, that it is more like 40-60% and that they would not get it as long or constant as it would be in the closed chambers.


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## Team Gomberg

Hydration is what matters. The constant high humidity is one way of achieving that. 

This is obvious but I'll say it anyway. In the wild they have access to micro climates. They don't walk around in 80% humidity 24/7 like they do inside my chamber or inside Tom's. However, their environment is humid and they do spend time at the base of plants with even higher humidity than what is recorded at "people level". 

Once Levi hit 4" in length he spent all day outside here in SoCal. His pen was heavily planted with tall grasses and lots of overgrown plants. I'm a stay at home mom so I went out multiple times a day and watered it down. He then slept inside the humid chamber. He was perfectly smooth with this routine. I knew inside the chamber was 80% RH minimally but outside in his grasses? I don't actually know because I never recorded the numbers. (This just inspired me to start recording that) 
So, even if Africa isn't 80% RH all the time at our level, I bet its still pretty high at the base of plants where they are and that they spend enough time in those conditions to be hydrated enough for smooth growth.

Remember, we are raising babies in the high humidity. Not juveniles or adults. The reason we don't know much about what babies do in the wild is because no one sees enough of them. But we know they are there because the species hasn't gone extinct. If the babies aren't seen it is probably because they are hiding under all the brush. That humidity level is what matters. That is why they stay hydrated and grow smooth. That is why we create a close chamber to efficiently and cost effectively create that micro climate.


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## Testudoresearch

nearpass said:


> It was presented to me several years ago by a European tortoise keeper, the source I do not remember, that 'over feeding' and too rapid growth contribute to excessive pyramiding in captive tortoises. By over feeding, I mean that in captivity our animals have to work very little for foods that may well be much more nutrient dense than what they would ever scrounge for much of the time in the wild. I suspect many captive raise animals have accelerated growth compared to wild roaming ones, and much less exercise is involved in their finding food. This is certainly not the complete picture, and I am no biologist, but might it not play a part?



Absolutely it plays a major role. This is not a theory - it is an established fact, and has been known for years. It is not only true in chelonia, but in other animals too. It is discussed in most veterinary nutritional texts. In the vast majority of cases, captive bred and raised animals can be anything from 100% to 400% larger than an equivalent aged wild specimen of the same species after 3 or four years growth. Wild growth, in most situations, is really quite slow. This is especially true of semi-arid habitat tortoises which experience strong seasonal variations in food availability (typically two fairly short periods of abundance, one in Spring (March-May) and again in Fall (September-October). Activity, and feeding, are (in the Mediterranean, for example) very low to non-existent over the heat of summer, and again very low to non-existent from December-February (there are a few exceptions to this, but that is very average and typical). There are only a few months of the year when what you might call 'serious' feeding and high activity occur, and even then, it takes place on a daily cycle, of short period in the mornings, very little at mid-day, and often again in late afternoon. They are most certainly not feeding constantly, or every day. There can be periods of days, or even weeks, or months between feeds. In many areas they both brumate (hibernate) _and _estivate. The precise pattern varies according to locality and altitude, but it is very different from a typical captive situation where daily feeding and (often) a 365-day-a year activity cycle is the norm. Also... the digestibility of wild foods tend to be considerably lower than most captive diets. A combination of a highly digestible diet plus extended feeding cycles predictably result in excess growth compared to a wild example. 

As mentioned, veterinary nutritional texts recognize this link. Donoghue and and Langenberg (1996) state that "the demands of shell growth may predispose juvenile chelonians to MBDâ€. MacArthur (2004) observes that â€œmetabolic bone disease is most frequently encountered in the rapidly growing juvenileâ€. Ware (1998) points out that â€œbecause the majority of nutritional problems become apparent during growth, bone disease often occurs where young animals are being rearedâ€. Rapid growth is therefore clearly established as an important co-factor in the development of shell deformities in chelonia, as it is an established and very common co-factor in MBD in mammals, birds and other reptiles, such as iguanas and bearded dragons (Rubel, Isenbugel and Wolvekamp, 1990). I am not aware of a single reputable text that disputes or challenges this in any way. It is also recognized in agricultural nutrition (hence high energy diets deliberately designed to produce high growth rates). 

In simple terms... rapid growth makes achieving good _bone density_ very difficult. As has been pointed out regularly for over over 20 years in terms of tortoise keeping "Any deficiency-induced skeletal disorders will obviously manifest much more rapidly and with greater severity in an animal undergoing a rapid growth phase than in a fully grown adult". If you grow animals at a high rate, it makes nutrition very, very critical indeed in terms of calcium and D3 supply in particular. Any deficiency at all will result in irreversible poor bone density and general MBD issues arising. The evidence for this is overwhelming and is easy to verify. The captive carapace section illustrated in Wolfgang's text is typical. I will post some further examples shortly for you to compare.




wellington said:


> Heather, maybe some clarity is needed. I took it that the high humidity (80%)is not what they would naturally get in the wild, that it is more like 40-60% and that they would not get it as long or constant as it would be in the closed chambers.



Correct.


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## wellington

Along with your next post, please post pics of your tortoises and give us a run down of the way you raise yours and what part of the country or world you do this in, please.


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## Testudoresearch

Team Gomberg said:


> When you take temperature and humidity readings, what level do you sample? Measuring from 6' above the ground will have different readings than measuring under a bush or at the base of thick grass. The moisture at the leopard hatchling level is much higher.



I believe some of the other points you raised have been addressed in my other response (above). There is a considerable amount of field data, incidentally, on wild growth rates for numerous species. The zoological (vs. pet keeping) literature is full of such reports. Mark and recapture is one means by which this is established. Individuals can be tracked over many years and precise growth recorded. For some example accounts see Hailey & Willemsen's excellent papers:

Your point about where and how you measure RH is valid and important. It is is standard practice to take the measurement 1 m above ground level, but as you rightly point out, this does not accurately reflect what is happening at 'tortoise level' - this is one reason why standard climate data can be misleading. I take data both at 1 m to establish a general ambient level and again right next to the tortoises, in some cases, using miniature data loggers that record all changes over a period of up to months at a time. These are later recovered, leading to a complete chart of the precise conditions the animal has actually experienced. This permits very accurate data to be captured, particularly when combined with GPS logger data which also records movements.




wellington said:


> Along with your next post, please post pics of your tortoises and give us a run down of the way you raise yours and what part of the country or world you do this in, please.



I am uploading some examples now, and will post shortly.


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## Tom

Testudoresearch said:


> Tom,
> 
> I have read your reports of your experiences with G. pardalis and G. sulcata in various threads posted here. I note you recommend rearing in a high humidity environment. Your results are interesting, and I applaud your tenacity in pursuing this research. Your results are meaningful and useful. However.... I do believe that you may be misinterpreting certain causes and effects. I also note that you state, above, that you believe in some form not only of external, but some form of "internal" or"cellular" dehydration as one of the causes. This would be quite remarkable, because physiologically, it would be unique in the animal kingdom. No such process is known to science. Living cells, within an organism, are invariably in a state of homeostasis - and if dehydrated to the point of "collapse", as proponents of the theory you appear to subscribe to suggest, then they would be no longer living cells, but dead cells. There is no cytological evidence, anywhere, that this is occurring.
> 
> The areas just below the outer keratin are very well supplied by numerous blood vessels. The underlying bone too, is also well supplied and is invariably at homeostasis. If any localised "drying" did take place at that level, it would cause cell death and localised necrosis. Examination of numerous 'pyramided' carapaces fails to reveal any such condition.
> 
> So, I think we have to look beyond that theory (which remains a theory, as absolutely no-one has produced a sliver of real, hard evidence to support it). This is particularly important when a theory contradicts the established physiological and biological sciences.
> 
> I have two questions.
> 
> The first concerns Leopard tortoises in the wild which exhibit a type of raised scute phenomenon. I note you have said that you believe these are most probably ex-captives that have been released into the wild? (I hope I am not misquoting you here). While I have no count that this does occur (I have studied G. pardalis in South Africa), I believe it highly improbable it accounts for all of them - by a long way. Furthermore, there are numerous specimens in natural history museums, some dating back almost 200 years, that display identical scute formations. These were collected, in many cases from extremely remote areas, long before anyone, anywhere was keeping these animals in captivity. This is significant evidence. In the same context, it is useful to look at another species from the same part of the world, Psammobates tentorius (the Tent tortoise). These display, as a matter of course, very similar scute formations to some of these wild Leopards tortoises. Clearly, they are not all ex-captives, and again, we have collection material going back a very long way. It is quite clearly normal for them - not a result of any pathology or incorrect environment. How do they fit into the scheme of things, and if it is normal for them, why is not possible that it might also be normal for some populations of G. pardalis?
> 
> My second question is more of a practical nature. You are using a very high humidity environment to rear G. pardalis. I understand you have seen these natural habitats... if so, you must surely recognise that the environment you are using is totally different from that in the wild. It is, in general, a semi-arid, scrubby habitat. Finding pockets of high humidity in that habitat is very, very difficult. I have recorded the actual conditions right next to both juvenile and adult wild Leopard tortoises, and typically, RH ranges from 35-60% for most of the year. Very high levels are only seen at certain times of year, during and immediately following rain. For most of the time, RH is in the 40-50% range.
> 
> So as far as this goes, I have to question why people feel that such an entirely different set of microclimate conditions from that in the wild are needed in captivity? Surely, it should not be necessary. An intensely artificial method is being used here that bears almost no relation to conditions this species experiences in nature, in its natural habitat. It is important to enquire why, and what else is going wrong that demands such an approach?
> 
> Thank you for your time. I do believe these are important questions that all serious keepers and investigators have an interest in seeing addressed.



To address your opening paragraphs: As I stated in sentence 1 of my reply, the cellular pressure theory is simply something that I have read that could explain what we see in captivity. You state that cells are either fully hydrated, or dead, as if their is no in between. Haven't you ever seen a wilted plant? Haven't you seen that wilted plant perk back up with the addition of water? Again, I have no idea what is really happening with those pyramided cells on a physiological level, I only know what I've seen right in front of my own eyes hundreds or thousands of times. If the theory that I repeated above is not correct, then please, by all means, enlighten us. I am willing to look at ANY theory that will give more insight into this problem. Frankly I STILL do not know what is happening or why, but I DO know how to grow a smooth leopard or sulcata and I know how to grow a lumpy one.

Your first question: I never said that pyramiding in wild leopards does not exist. I have made the point that many "wild" ones were started dry in captivity and this could account for some of the "wild" pyramided leopards that have been seen. Truth be told, no person, you or me included, really knows the answer to this. I don't know how many, or to what degree, "wild" leopards do or don't pyramid, and neither do you. Some of them, a little bit? Probably. All of them, or a lot? No. There has never been a wild one that looks like the absolutely grotesque ones that have been produced in dry indoor North American enclosures. I have thrown out my observations and what I have learned as a point of discussion for this forum. I have never commented one way or another on tent tortoises as I have no experience with them at all. We have a member here named Will who has seen and studied them in the wild, and he has generously shared his experiences and knowledge about them. From what he has posted it appears that some pyramiding is "natural" for that species.

For your second question: It should be noted that this IS a much more muddled case with G. pardalis than it is with G. sulcata due to the wide variation in wild leopard habitats, where sulcatas have much more homogenous seasons and weather patterns through out their range. I was in and around Cape Town and George for about four months from late March to June. We had many days with heat and humidity that rivaled the South Eastern US in summer. Me and the dogs were miserable trying to work in those conditions. As Fall set in and the days got cooler it did get drier. Of course the tortoises were not active, eating much or growing during this colder drier time. Not coincidentally, we have a South African member who also explained this to us. He said it is generally humid down there and the only time its really dry is during the cold winter months when the Southern leopards aren't active, eating or growing. And the way I keep my leopards is not "totally different from that in the wild". I keep my South African leopards in very similar conditions to what I observed in South Africa.

We can argue all day about what conditions do or don't exist in the wild. Having been to Africa, you and I both know the micro climates can vary tremendously in a relatively small area, much less the entire enormous range of the leopard. Where will this get us? Nowhere. The people who wrote the books on sulcatas also researched the climate over there extensively. They erroneously based their care info on their incorrect assumptions. Leopard tortoise book writers did the same thing. Where did this gets us all? It got us two decades of horribly pyramided, dehydrated captive tortoises. SOOOOOooooooo, rather than focus on what can or can't be known about what happens in the wild, rather than trying to simulate what we think happens in the wild for leopards, since that tactic failed for decades, it is my opinion that we ought to look at what does or doesn't work in our captive environments. For nearly 20 years I, and everyone else failed to produce a smooth leopard or sulcata, by following the "expert" advice. I quit keeping leopards years ago because of this. I kept my sulcatas, but I was more or less out of the hobby until someone came along and figured this all out. A series of events and chance encounters brought me back in in 2007, right around the time this was all being figured out. Since then I have been experimenting and observing the results of just about every method of keeping imaginable. Plain and simple; when it comes to sulcatas and leopards, dry dehydrated conditions lead to pyramiding and wet hydrated conditions lead to smooth growth. There are a million variables and "shades of gray" within these two extremes, but that's what I have observed over and over all over this country in a general sense. It is also repeatable by anyone, anywhere, anytime, as you have seen here on this forum. People all over the world are getting positive results by keeping their tortoises humid and hydrated.

In short, while I find the study of climate and weather on the African continent interesting, it is of limited value to me for raising captive bred animals on THIS continent. For almost 20 years the "dry" methods failed me and everyone I know. For the last 5 years or so, the "wet" methods have succeeded for me and everyone I know.


Now for another subject: We have a trend on this forum of people showing up, helping no one, sharing nothing, and trying to cut down anyone who stands up and tries to make things better for our captive tortoises. They like to say how this, that and the other thing are all wrong, and use lofty scientific terminology and big fancy words while they do it, but then they don't say what's right. They don't show their own positive results. Often we have no idea who they are, where they are, what species they currently have or have past experience with, how much practical experience they have, or even what their name is. There are labels for people like this, and right now YOU fit the entirety of the above description. You have the benefit of reading back over years of my posts and learning my tactics, experience level, failures and a whole host of other info. Why don't you take a breather on telling everyone how wrong we all are, and take a moment to introduce yourself and let us know who you are, what you know and how you know it.

Lastly, if you can raise a leopard or sulcata smooth and healthy in a dry environment, you are someone I would like to learn from. If you have done this, I would ask that rather than point out how I am wrong about this, that and the other thing, please demonstrate how you did it and show the results. In other words, do what I did. Stick your neck out there. Tell us what you are going to do, why you think it will work, and then go get a brand new hatchling and document what happens from day one with pics and explanations. We will have lots of questions and your results will speak for you, as mine have done for me.


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## Testudoresearch

wellington said:


> Along with your next post, please post pics of your tortoises and give us a run down of the way you raise yours and what part of the country or world you do this in, please.



One pair of photos is of one of my own 100% CB _Testudo graeca graeca._ The other pair is of a wild example. Which is which, any why?























This is 100%, CB 2nd generation Testudo horsfieldii photographed at 6 years of age.






I do not personally keep or breed G. sulcata these days. I have done so in the distant past. Likewise with G. pardalis. I did breed and raise them years ago (and will post some photos) but there are major problems with finding adequate homes for these in Europe, so I ceased doing so about 8 years ago. I now pretty much concentrate exclusively on working with Testudo graeca graeca (various races, from Libyan to Moroccan, Spanish and Middle Eastern). I do not keep other species here because I am located in wild tortoise habitat, and the risk of potential intra-specific contamination would be too great. I do, however, continue work with many other species at zoos and rescue centres throughout Europe.

In the case of the CB T. horsdfieldii (above) that was raised entirely in Northern Europe on a fairly artificial regime. The CB T. g.graeca was raised 50% in Northern Europe and the remainder of the time in very similar conditions to wild examples, with no supplementary feeding, and natural hibernation/estivation cycles here in Southern Europe. No 'high humidity' facilities are provided. No artificial housing is now provided. They are outdoors all year round. It is a very arid environment, and the alleged high humidity conditions suggested by some that they are supposed to be relying on simply do not exist. It is not unusual to have the last rainfall of the year in May, and apart from a rare thunderstorm in August, no more rain at all until September. It can then be very dry through December. Ambient air humidity can be below 30%, and at ground level, rarely higher than 50%. 45% is not unusual. 

I would prefer to concentrate on a factual discussion and sharing of data rather than bring 'personalities' into it. That is, in my experience of the internet, rarely helpful. Things tend to get side-tracked and can degenerate rather rapidly. It is one reason I rarely post on public forums these days.


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## Team Gomberg

Raising Testudo is different than raising Sulcata and Leopard tortoises. 
This high humidity method doesn't apply to your species. 

You tortoises look great but they are comparing apples to oranges.


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## wellington

Nice torts. Can't wait to see your other pics. However, I am kinda confused. The high humidity, you referenced to in Toms threads are for leopards and sulcatas. There are others that benefit too, but his threads are for just the two. The humidity you mention that yours were and are now housed in is what is usually suggested for that species. A little higher I believe for hatchlings, which again are probably hunkered down under the shrub or burrows where the humidity is usually higher anyway.


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## edwardbo

Please don't let this post deteriorate into a pissing match.there is maybe too much material for most ti comprehend in the manner presented. Ahah, a voice of reason is what I thought reading testodos first response. I think the words let's listen are fitting .im rushing,but testodos,is there nerve endings on the surface of the she ?(how is it they respond to the slightest misting even when their head is buried ? And can pyramiding be ground down or sanded of?what would happen? I'm really rushing ,thank your .don't abandon this forum due to the reception (chilly). Please keep talking I'm all ears.


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## nearpass

I'm all ears, too. Many of us think we know much more than we really do about this subject, which is far from understood even by experts in the field who have been working with these animals for years. I, for one, am very appreciative that someone so obviously intimately involved with the study of tortoises for many years is willing to provide us with some insights and, to me, considerable food for thought. Please, more information and thoughts...and pictures, Testudoreasearch!


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## tortadise

Testudoresearch said:


> Tom,
> 
> I have read your reports of your experiences with G. pardalis and G. sulcata in various threads posted here. I note you recommend rearing in a high humidity environment. Your results are interesting, and I applaud your tenacity in pursuing this research. Your results are meaningful and useful. However.... I do believe that you may be misinterpreting certain causes and effects. I also note that you state, above, that you believe in some form not only of external, but some form of "internal" or"cellular" dehydration as one of the causes. This would be quite remarkable, because physiologically, it would be unique in the animal kingdom. No such process is known to science. Living cells, within an organism, are invariably in a state of homeostasis - and if dehydrated to the point of "collapse", as proponents of the theory you appear to subscribe to suggest, then they would be no longer living cells, but dead cells. There is no cytological evidence, anywhere, that this is occurring.
> 
> The areas just below the outer keratin are very well supplied by numerous blood vessels. The underlying bone too, is also well supplied and is invariably at homeostasis. If any localised "drying" did take place at that level, it would cause cell death and localised necrosis. Examination of numerous 'pyramided' carapaces fails to reveal any such condition.
> 
> So, I think we have to look beyond that theory (which remains a theory, as absolutely no-one has produced a sliver of real, hard evidence to support it). This is particularly important when a theory contradicts the established physiological and biological sciences.
> 
> I have two questions.
> 
> The first concerns Leopard tortoises in the wild which exhibit a type of raised scute phenomenon. I note you have said that you believe these are most probably ex-captives that have been released into the wild? (I hope I am not misquoting you here). While I have no count that this does occur (I have studied G. pardalis in South Africa), I believe it highly improbable it accounts for all of them - by a long way. Furthermore, there are numerous specimens in natural history museums, some dating back almost 200 years, that display identical scute formations. These were collected, in many cases from extremely remote areas, long before anyone, anywhere was keeping these animals in captivity. This is significant evidence. In the same context, it is useful to look at another species from the same part of the world, *Psammobates tentorius (the Tent tortoise)*. These display, as a matter of course, very similar scute formations to some of these wild Leopards tortoises. Clearly, they are not all ex-captives, and again, we have collection material going back a very long way. It is quite clearly normal for them - not a result of any pathology or incorrect environment. How do they fit into the scheme of things, and if it is normal for them, why is not possible that it might also be normal for some populations of G. pardalis?
> 
> My second question is more of a practical nature. You are using a very high humidity environment to rear G. pardalis. I understand you have seen these natural habitats... if so, you must surely recognise that the environment you are using is totally different from that in the wild. It is, in general, a semi-arid, scrubby habitat. Finding pockets of high humidity in that habitat is very, very difficult. I have recorded the actual conditions right next to both juvenile and adult wild Leopard tortoises, and typically, RH ranges from 35-60% for most of the year. Very high levels are only seen at certain times of year, during and immediately following rain. For most of the time, RH is in the 40-50% range.
> 
> So as far as this goes, I have to question why people feel that such an entirely different set of microclimate conditions from that in the wild are needed in captivity? Surely, it should not be necessary. An intensely artificial method is being used here that bears almost no relation to conditions this species experiences in nature, in its natural habitat. It is important to enquire why, and what else is going wrong that demands such an approach?
> 
> Thank you for your time. I do believe these are important questions that all serious keepers and investigators have an interest in seeing addressed.




Very well put indeed. I am very curious to learn more of this research. In particular with the genus of psammobates. I do wonder, since the range of oculifera, tentorius is quite vast compared to that of the geometricus. The minor differences in carapace shape and growth of the scutes but yet the difference in climate from brushy grassy thorn brush in the Karoo versus the sandy rocky Namaque. Oculifera, Tentorius tend to present a more pronounced scute raising, than that of the geomtricus. I would love to know the if you have noted any major differences among the data, and or climactic variations. Knowing the geometricus is endemically present in a very small range. In comparison of latter species of the genus.

In a follow up question semi pertaining to the first. Chilensis is a very very intrigueing species of Arid-Semi Arid dwelling. Given the summers and climate data I have been able to find. These are exposed to lateraly very similar weather conditions of extreme heat summers and mild winters. Chilensis tends to not develop a pronounced scute pattern, in comparison to RSA/Namibian psammobates. Very similar patterns of life they take on as well. So what would your opinion or even better yet findings(if any research of this comparative title in arid to semi arid species) of the difference in physical development that pertains to the "pyramided" scutes.

It seems as if the pyramiding (naturally occurring in some species) would lead to a thermoregulation assistance. But perhaps not so in Chilensis. Of course I take no attempt in providing noted/cited material. But I do ask you. Since you seem very well educated and appropriate lots of research in this field.

Thank You,
Kelly


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## AnnV

I am not very familiar with the habits of this species. But I wonder how much time is spent burrowed in the damp ground or in other types of humid hides, in their natural environment.


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## Testudoresearch

Team Gomberg said:


> Raising Testudo is different than raising Sulcata and Leopard tortoises.
> This high humidity method doesn't apply to your species.
> 
> You tortoises look great but they are comparing apples to oranges.



That is absolutely not the view of everyone, by any means. There are hundreds of keepers in Europe who promote the "high humidity" method for these species too. The internet forums are full of them. I would be interested to know why you believe this? What is the precise biological difference between say, a Testudo graeca and G. pardalis in terms of:

1) Bone development
2) The growth process
3) Relationship between diet and growth rate
4) Skeleton-Keratin interface and cell proliferation?

I would be very interested to know, because as far as I am aware there is none. The biology and physiology in all those respects are *absolutely identical*. No difference whatsoever.

However, here is an apple to compare to an apple:






CB and raised G. pardalis at 8 years of age.

This one was very, very smooth. Again - no "high humidity" system used.


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## Team Gomberg

You don't think different species can have different husbandry requirements? I do. 

Do you think Tom and I (amongst others) use high humidity in closed chambers for all species alike? We don't. 
My Russians (adult wc) are not kept hot and humid. His Russian babies do have humid hides but they aren't housed like his sulcata hatchlings.

Your Leopard is very smooth. It looks great. I assume this guy was well hydrated? Can you share with us how you housed him? The more details you share about the husbandry the more other keepers have to glean from.


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## Testudoresearch

Just to further respond to a couple of interesting points raised.

*The effect of wear*

I am glad someone mentioned this. It is often overlooked. Yes, in the wild in most localities quite a lot of wear on the keratin does occur. Abrasion from scrubby, thorny plants, bumping into rocks, abrasion from sand, pebbles, etc. I would stress the amount is quite variable and highly dependent on the precise habitat. The most extreme examples I have ever encountered were at the very limits of Testudo graeca's known range, in the (very) far South of Morocco in the region of Tiznit. Just look at this....incredible!
















What you see there is something akin to sand blasting.. normally, it is not as obvious as that. That particular habitat was extreme in itself. Not really typical of T. graeca at all, in fact, we were very surprised to find as healthy population there. It actually looks closer to T. klieinmanni habitat than T. graeca...

The net result is that quite a lot of wear can occur, and when it does, it 'thins' the keratin scutes substantially. In some, less abrasive habitats, very little _physical_ wear may occur, however. Even so, _microbial erosion_ due to keratin-eating bacteria in the substrate can be a factor. I have observed this a number of times. It occurs during periods when they are buried, hibernation and estivation. The result is similar, a thinning of the keratin. This is in contrast to many captive situations where little or no wear occurs - resulting in a very thick scute depth. This has important implications.

*Psammobates*

I wish I knew more. Unfortunately, I have not had extended field experience with them. I have seen them in the wild, but far too briefly to draw any detailed conclusions. I have also kept (briefly) a few lone examples....I would love to study them in depth.. but there is only much time... my knowledge of them is therefore far too limited to say much of any value. 

No-one has had a guess yet at which of the pair of Testudo graeca photos were CB and which wild. Give it a go... nothing to lose!




Team Gomberg said:


> You don't think different species can have different husbandry requirements? I do.



I absolutely did not suggest that. I was not talking about husbandry. I was talking about their physiology and biology, with specific reference to the structure and development of the skeleton and keratin scutes. Just that, nothing else.

Where is the difference, strictly in those terms?

That Leopard was CB and raised in Northern Europe, in a moderate humidity environment - mostly between 50-60% RH. It had access to fresh drinking water, but was not "soaked", sprayed or in any other way given special treatment. It had a low digestibility, high-fibre, low protein, calcium-rich diet with some oral D3 supplement in the form of Nutrobal (as natural UVB levels there were pretty poor). A pair of 48" 40W UVB tubes were also used at approximately 14" above ground level. It was allowed outside as frequently as weather permitted, which was not really often enough. I subsequently rehomed it to a keeper in a more suitable climate, where it could have a better life.


Just to be going on with, something to look at. Large adult G. pardalis (Addo Elephant Park, SA). Has an abnormal scute division. Quite common, though, even in wild tortoises. 






Some typical habitats of G. pardalis in SA


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## Testudoresearch

Tom said:


> To address your opening paragraphs: As I stated in sentence 1 of my reply, the cellular pressure theory is simply something that I have read that could explain what we see in captivity. You state that cells are either fully hydrated, or dead, as if their is no in between. Haven't you ever seen a wilted plant? Haven't you seen that wilted plant perk back up with the addition of water?



Yes, but a plant is not a living animal. They function in very different ways indeed. You can certainly have severely dehydrated tortoises. No-one denies that. Certainly not me. However, dehydration in tortoises does not produce cellular collapse. It is very well understood. It has been studied extensively for decades. There are whole texts on the subject. It is lectured on in veterinary and biological science courses. We know what happens. We understand the biology very well. Nothing as drastic as what you suggest takes place. For anything on that scale to occur, they would have to be dehydrated practically to the point of mummification. They would certainly no longer be living. 



Tom said:


> Again, I have no idea what is really happening with those pyramided cells on a physiological level, I only know what I've seen right in front of my own eyes hundreds or thousands of times.



You are making good observations of a real effect. That is not being denied. What I do take issue with is the _conclusions_ drawn from the observations. Please understand that I am not trying to be argumentative for the sake of it. Like yourself, I suspect, this is a topic that has fascinated me for many years. I have spent a lot of time investigating it from different perspectives. My only interest is to drill down to the truth of what is really going on, and I am the first to admit that even after more than 35 years of working on it, there are still things I do not fully understand. I continue to try to learn more. 




Tom said:


> Your first question: I never said that pyramiding in wild leopards does not exist. I have made the point that many "wild" ones were started dry in captivity and this could account for some of the "wild" pyramided leopards that have been seen. Truth be told, no person, you or me included, really knows the answer to this. I don't know how many, or to what degree, "wild" leopards do or don't pyramid, and neither do you. Some of them, a little bit? Probably. All of them, or a lot? No.



Well, again, I am not entirely disagreeing with you, but I have reservations about some things you have said. For example, you say that "When I was over there in '99 and '05, I saw a total of 6 wild leos, actually in the wild. All of them were totally smooth". With respect, 6 is not very many, and is not a number I would be prepared to draw many conclusions from. I have probably seen three-fifty to four hundred in the wild (I admit to not keeping a precise count), and even then, I cannot be sure it would be entirely representative. I can say with certainty, however, that quite a number were far from 'perfectly' flat or domed. I am guessing - which I don't like to do - but I would estimate between 15-20% from a variety of habitats and locations. 



Tom said:


> There has never been a wild one that looks like the absolutely grotesque ones that have been produced in dry indoor North American enclosures.



We are in 100% agreement on that point. 



Tom said:


> I have never commented one way or another on tent tortoises as I have no experience with them at all. We have a member here named Will who has seen and studied them in the wild, and he has generously shared his experiences and knowledge about them. From what he has posted it appears that some pyramiding is "natural" for that species.



It is interesting, is it not, though, to inquire why? What is the difference? What is going on? It cannot be caused by an incorrect diet... and they are in what should be their ideal environment... is it genetic? or is environment or diet still somehow involved? I confess that I do not have the answer on this particular point! I can speculate.. but that's all it would be. 



Tom said:


> For your second question: It should be noted that this IS a much more muddled case with G. pardalis than it is with G. sulcata due to the wide variation in wild leopard habitats, where sulcatas have much more homogenous seasons and weather patterns through out their range. I was in and around Cape Town and George for about four months from late March to June. I keep my South African leopards in very similar conditions to what I observed in South Africa.



I cannot entirely agree with you. First, Cape Town is coastal and the conditions are really very different from those further inland where high density populations occur - and G. pardalis has an enormous range, including some really very arid areas indeed. Meantime, G. sulcata also has a large range, and is found in quite disparate humidity zones, from higher ranges in Senegal to some very seriously arid habitats indeed in Mali. IF humidity was the primary causal factor, we should expect to see a strong and direct correlation between the RH of the habitat and carapace formation. However - we simply do not. It is clearly more complex than that. We do tend to see that correlation to a much greater extent in _captive _situations - but then, there are also many _other _aggravating factors present. The point is, we do not see it consistently in the wild. 



Tom said:


> The people who wrote the books on sulcatas also researched the climate over there extensively. They erroneously based their care info on their incorrect assumptions. Leopard tortoise book writers did the same thing. Where did this gets us all? It got us two decades of horribly pyramided, dehydrated captive tortoises.



Some did, and some made errors by going on the basis of generalized data - not specific data. They also often suggested other aggravating methods of husbandry _known t_o result in MBD related issues. Some. Not all. Some of those people have raised consistently excellent animals for decades. 




Tom said:


> SOOOOOooooooo, rather than focus on what can or can't be known about what happens in the wild, rather than trying to simulate what we think happens in the wild for leopards, since that tactic failed for decades



Again... you are concluding that it was the environment that was incorrect and discounting all other possibilities, including any possible combination of factors. I do not accept that. Everything I have learned on this topic indicates to me it is multi-factorial with environment playing a part, but by no means being the full story. 




Tom said:


> For nearly 20 years I, and everyone else failed to produce a smooth leopard or sulcata..



I think you are using "everyone else" rather too loosely in this context. Please refer to the CB G. pardalis in my photo (above). Perhaps you might wish to reconsider that statement. That one was CB and raised by myself from 1995 onwards. I have many similar photos in my files showing identical results using the very same methods. 



Tom said:


> Lastly, if you can raise a leopard or sulcata smooth and healthy in a dry environment, you are someone I would like to learn from. If you have done this, I would ask that rather than point out how I am wrong about this, that and the other thing, please demonstrate how you did it and show the results.



See above.


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## Tom

Just a few points of clarification/discussion:
1. While over there, I saw 6 wild ones, but I also saw about 300 in "captive" enclosures too. All of these were older animals and housed outside in large "naturalistic" enclosures. None of them were pyramided. Saw a lot of smooth Chersina too. Didn't see any hatchlings or yearlings. So we don't share the 15-20% view. I am also talking only about the southern "clades" (formerly referred to as a subspecies) while I think you have seen multiple clades and geographical populations. I can't say what exists in parts of Africa that I haven't been to, so I will take your word for it. Again, the tactic I recommend for you here rather than tell me or anybody else we are wrong, simply make your own thread and share what you have learned. You seem to have much experience and knowledge that could benefit tortoise keepers world wide. I ask you to share it in a positive way. You have found an outlet to do some good for the tortoises of the world. Use it.
2. In the case of sulcatas and the reported differences in microclimates: I propose that their fossorial predilections mitigate any above ground climactic factors. They can find whatever temp and humidity they desire depending on where in the burrow they sit and how the burrow is constructed. My friend Tomas is supposed to be releasing a new book soon that will have much more data on wild temps, humidity and recorded burrow conditions. This new book will add much to our discussions on these matters. THIS subject has had me confounded with leopards for some time. We are in agreement that at least some of the time, and in some areas, leopard habitat is dry. Why 80-85% of them DON'T pyramided (using your numbers here) is still a mystery that I cannot solve, because if housed similarly in captivity they do pyramid.
3. I have seen no one in this country "raising consistently excellent animals for decades". Not sulcatas and leopards anyway. I don't know how many tortoises and enclosures that you have seen over here in the US, but I have seen literally thousands dating back to 1991 when I first became involved with sulcatas and leopards. You may think what you wish of my "everyone else" statement, but I stand by it. Sure there are occasional single tortoise exceptions, but no one can or has produced dozens of sulcatas or leopard that ALL turn out smooth and healthy. I have. You showed one pic of one tortoise and we have no idea of that tortoises origin, history or care regime. I have showed 100s of pics and documented the progress of many tortoises from hatchling to more than three years and still running. Plus there are now dozens, maybe hundreds of similar cases right here on this forum that show the same thing.
4. Your single picture of a smooth leopard looks lovely. If your goal is to educate and help people, I would like to formally, in writing here, request you do a thread on that tortoise. Please show his hatchling photos, enclosure photos, and explain to us all the details of his diet and care parameters. Include weights and age and give us as much detail and as many pics as possible and pratical, so that we may examine and learn from your experience. If you have discovered a method of raising smooth leopards that differs from mine, there is not a single person here who would not like to understand it and learn from it. Hopefully some will be moved to attempt to duplicate your results. I would like to see several hatchlings raised together with your method and compare results. Showing a single stand alone photograph does not help your case, even if it is a nice picture of a smooth leopard from somewhere in the world.


Here is the bottom line for me: I don't know how much more plainly I can put it.
1. Dry doesn't work here. Not for me. Diet, temps and UV have not mattered in regards to leopards and sulcatas pyramiding or not. I have seen every variation attempted and also attempted many of these variations myself. If its a dry enclosure, indoors or out, the tortoise (leopards and sulcatas) pyramids. Conversely, I have seen many examples in Louisiana and FL of animals raised "incorrectly" or on incorrect diets still grow a smooth carapace due to hydration and humidity.
2. The warm, humid, hydrated methods that I have developed DO work here. They work everywhere else too. There are now examples from all over the entire globe of well hydrated smooth growing tortoise of many species. I have no doubt that some Testudo species can be raised smooth while relatively dry. Not debating that here.
3. Last time I'm gonna say it: I think studying the wild conditions and trying to figure out exactly what is going on here is an interesting, fun, and a praiseworthy pursuit. More knowledge and understanding is always a good thing and something we should all strive for. HOWEVER, North American captive conditions are NOT the wild and never will be. Lets not let our understanding of wild conditions, or lack there of, stand in the way of promoting sound, time tested, proven methods that work in our captive environments. And lets not lose sight of the decades long record of failure and the conditions that caused that failure.

No doubt you have more "field" experience than I do. That's not saying a lot since I have very little. If you wish to spend your time pointing out details that you think are incorrect about my speculations of what happens in the wild, that is fine with me, but I think your time could better be spent sharing what YOU DO know rather than jumping on to a forum and pointing out what others DON'T know.


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## julietteq

I have the feeling nobody knows at this point why tortoises pyramid more often in captivity then in the wild. Until we do, I feel it is important to take Tom's advise to make sure humidity levels are up in the torts home. Since Tom is so succesful raising his torts, there must be some link to water/humidity. Maybe the extreme humidity in captivity compensates for circumstances in the wild that are so in front of our face that we do not see it? I personallly thought the comment about the "sandblasting/wear and tear on the shell" was very interesting. 

Lets compare it to humans, when you have a deskjob, your nails (ceratine) need clipping. However when we were hunter/gatherers I doubt we needed manicures! Your nails become brittle when you are in a bath and they break off very easy. Maybe that is what the humidity does. It makes the carapace soft so it wears down easier and thus prevents pyramiding? 

PS: I assume we are all normal people and nobody will start "sanding" off their tortoise shells!!!!


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## Tom

julietteq said:


> I have the feeling nobody knows at this point why tortoises pyramid more often in captivity then in the wild. Until we do, I feel it is important to take Tom's advise to make sure humidity levels are up in the torts home. Since Tom is so succesful raising his torts, there must be some link to water/humidity. Maybe the extreme humidity in captivity compensates for circumstances in the wild that are so in front of our face that we do not see it? I personallly thought the comment about the "sandblasting/wear and tear on the shell" was very interesting.
> 
> Lets compare it to humans, when you have a deskjob, your nails (ceratine) need clipping. However when we were hunter/gatherers I doubt we needed manicures! Your nails become brittle when you are in a bath and they break off very easy. Maybe that is what the humidity does. It makes the carapace soft so it wears down easier and thus prevents pyramiding?
> 
> PS: I assume we are all normal people and nobody will start "sanding" off their tortoise shells!!!!



Good points and humor, and I agree.

I can't say what is going on or why with any certainty (and I have found no one else who can either), but it is very obvious now what does and doesn't work in a practical sense for keeping these species in our captive environments.

By all means, let's keep learning and studying and trying to improve, but let's NOT ignore what is obvious and right in front of us daily, because of what we think might be happening on another continent. I don't know why the sky is blue, or how to define "blue", or what physical factors make it blue, but my ignorance on the matter does not mean the sky ISN'T blue.


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## Jacqui

Testudoresearch, I just want to say how happy I am that have you have joined our forum and are sharing with us your experiences, thoughts and knowledge! Please do not stop.


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## Testudoresearch

Well, if I could just point out that the title of this thread is very clear. It is "What is the physiology behind pyramiding". That is precisely what I am here to address. I was referred to the forum by a colleague who does follow it and thought that it might be helpful if I contributed on this subject, as it is the topic of a new publication I have pending. Having viewed some of the comments on the topic, it is very clear to me that there is a lot of confusion and misunderstanding. All I really wish to do is to highlight some new information that does shed considerable light on the physiological mechanisms involved.

I do not believe endless anecdotes on husbandry, from me or anyone else, are really that productive in this context. It is far more to the point to try to understand exactly why and _how_ this class of deformity really occurs. Once that is understood, it becomes much easier to determine appropriate husbandry. I do not feel that it is very satisfactory to advance specific husbandry advice when you cannot adequately _explain _why a particular method works (or not). Guessing is not the same as explaining. You must be able to present a *viable mechanism*. That must be credible from both biological and physiological perspectives. In short, it must make scientific _sense_. If it does not do so, then something is wrong or a piece of the puzzle is missing.

It is also not hugely productive to debate in great detail all the specific habitats used by tortoises on internet fora. The only reason I raised this is because many false assumptions are being made. In respect of G. pardalis, the prime habitat in SA is "semi-arid karoo veld". This has a specific meaning. I highly recommend anyone interested in finding out more for themselves to consult "Karoo Veld - Ecology & Management" by Milton and Dean (Fitzpatrick Institute, University of Cape Town). This provides a superb overview of the region, and even includes detailed precipitation and climatic maps that can be overlaid with tortoise distribution data. It is a very useful reference for anyone remotely interested in South African tortoises.

I included a photo of one of my tortoises simply because I was asked to. I have reared numerous examples, and I think this does show that very good growth can indeed be achieved without recourse to extreme measures and incredibly high levels of RH. Some have claimed this is not possible. I ask you to judge for yourselves. This one was photographed at 4 years of age. Not only does it _look _good, but bone mineral density was excellent, as confirmed by a dual-energy x-ray absorptiometry (DEXA) scan. 






The problem is that you can have what appear to be very smooth tortoises externally, but which internally, have very poor bone mineral density - with fibrous lesions and poor mass. So, establishing the condition of bones generated under various husbandry regimes is absolutely critical. Yet, it is rarely done.

It is intriguing that so many keepers hold totally contradictory views on these matters. On the one hand, we have people who say that Leopard and Sulcata tortoises need this super high humidity regime, but Testudo do not... and then other keepers who enthusiastically argue the exact opposite. What I think many miss is that in the paper by Weisner and Iben (cited extensively by Richard Fife), they did _not _limit their argument to G. sulcata, but claimed it affected multiple species: "Many species of tortoises live most of their lives hidden either in caves (e.g. Testudo horsfieldii, Gopherus sp.) or on the ground surrounded by high humidity even during arid conditionsâ€.

Unfortunately, this is plain wrong. It is useful they included Gopherus, because we have superb microclimate data for this species, including burrow humidity throughout the year. In the most detailed and comprehensive study yet carried out on Desert tortoise burrows in Nevada, Bulova (2002) established accurate environmental data for more than 70 individual burrows over an extended period and recorded burrow relative humidity levels ranging from 6.1 to 44.5%, compared to surface relative humidity levels of 4.1 to 32.2%. Other data, from other researchers in various localities for these species totally confirms this. This data _conclusively _destroys the argument that these tortoises experience sustained levels of RH above 80% in nature (the authors of that paper actually recommend provision of RH up to 100%!!) 

There is no doubt, however, that humidity affects tortoises, and can influence the way in which a carapace develops. This is where physiology and ecology collide, and where the answers are to be found.

To do that we need to look closely at the physical structure of the tortoise skeleton and carapace, and in particular at the _properties _of the materials it is built from. How those materials respond to the environment, and to various mechanical stresses, is key to developing a viable explanation for the physiology of pyramiding.

I will shortly post some images of carapace sections for comparison and also explain what we have discovered concerning those interactions.


----------



## Sulcata_Sandy

Testudoresearch said:


> Well, if I could just point out that the title of this thread is very clear. It is "What is the physiology behind pyramiding". That is precisely what I am here to address. I was referred to the forum by a colleague who does follow it and thought that it might be helpful if I contributed on this subject, as it is the topic of a new publication I have pending. Having viewed some of the comments on the topic, it is very clear to me that there is a lot of confusion and misunderstanding. All I really wish to do is to highlight some new information that does shed considerable light on the physiological mechanisms involved.
> 
> I do not believe endless anecdotes on husbandry, from me or anyone else, are really that productive in this context. It is far more to the point to try to understand exactly why and _how_ this class of deformity really occurs. Once that is understood, it becomes much easier to determine appropriate husbandry. I do not feel that it is very satisfactory to advance specific husbandry advice when you cannot adequately _explain _why a particular method works (or not). Guessing is not the same as explaining. You must be able to present a *viable mechanism*. That must be credible from both biological and physiological perspectives. In short, it must make scientific _sense_. If it does not do so, then something is wrong or a piece of the puzzle is missing.
> 
> It is also not hugely productive to debate in great detail all the specific habitats used by tortoises on internet fora. The only reason I raised this is because many false assumptions are being made. In respect of G. pardalis, the prime habitat in SA is "semi-arid karoo veld". This has a specific meaning. I highly recommend anyone interested in finding out more for themselves to consult "Karoo Veld - Ecology & Management" by Milton and Dean (Fitzpatrick Institute, University of Cape Town). This provides a superb overview of the region, and even includes detailed precipitation and climatic maps that can be overlaid with tortoise distribution data. It is a very useful reference for anyone remotely interested in South African tortoises.
> 
> I included a photo of one of my tortoises simply because I was asked to. I have reared numerous examples, and I think this does show that very good growth can indeed be achieved without recourse to extreme measures and incredibly high levels of RH. Some have claimed this is not possible. I ask you to judge for yourselves. This one was photographed at 4 years of age. Not only does it _look _good, but bone mineral density was excellent, as confirmed by a dual-energy x-ray absorptiometry (DEXA) scan.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The problem is that you can have what appear to be very smooth tortoises externally, but which internally, have very poor bone mineral density - with fibrous lesions and poor mass. So, establishing the condition of bones generated under various husbandry regimes is absolutely critical. Yet, it is rarely done.
> 
> It is intriguing that so many keepers hold totally contradictory views on these matters. On the one hand, we have people who say that Leopard and Sulcata tortoises need this super high humidity regime, but Testudo do not... and then other keepers who enthusiastically argue the exact opposite. What I think many miss is that in the paper by Weisner and Iben (cited extensively by Richard Fife), they did _not _limit their argument to G. sulcata, but claimed it affected multiple species: "Many species of tortoises live most of their lives hidden either in caves (e.g. Testudo horsfieldii, Gopherus sp.) or on the ground surrounded by high humidity even during arid conditionsâ€.
> 
> Unfortunately, this is plain wrong. It is useful they included Gopherus, because we have superb microclimate data for this species, including burrow humidity throughout the year. In the most detailed and comprehensive study yet carried out on Desert tortoise burrows in Nevada, Bulova (2002) established accurate environmental data for more than 70 individual burrows over an extended period and recorded burrow relative humidity levels ranging from 6.1 to 44.5%, compared to surface relative humidity levels of 4.1 to 32.2%. Other data, from other researchers in various localities for these species totally confirms this. This data _conclusively _destroys the argument that these tortoises experience sustained levels of RH above 80% in nature (the authors of that paper actually recommend provision of RH up to 100%!!)
> 
> There is no doubt, however, that humidity affects tortoises, and can influence the way in which a carapace develops. This is where physiology and ecology collide, and where the answers are to be found.
> 
> To do that we need to look closely at the physical structure of the tortoise skeleton and carapace, and in particular at the _properties _of the materials it is built from. How those materials respond to the environment, and to various mechanical stresses, is key to developing a viable explanation for the physiology of pyramiding.
> 
> I will shortly post some images of carapace sections for comparison and also explain what we have discovered concerning those interactions.



AMEN!

I've been a licensed Veterinary Technician 25 years, and extensive experience in reptiles, particularly tortoises. I cannot agree more. While a humid environment is helpful in production of smooth keratin growth, it is not the only factor. 

I'm anxious to read more that you have on this subject.


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## Tom

Testudoresearch said:


> I do not feel that it is very satisfactory to advance specific husbandry advice when you cannot adequately _explain _why a particular method works (or not). Guessing is not the same as explaining. You must be able to present a *viable mechanism*. That must be credible from both biological and physiological perspectives. In short, it must make scientific _sense_.



Here we are going to disagree. No it mustn't make sense or be fully explainable for it to be true. See my blue sky reference above. Things are either fact or they are not, someone's ability to scientifically explain every detail of it, or their lack of ability to do so, does not make the thing true or false. It would be NICE if it could be clearly explained, and again, I'm all ears here when you are ready to offer your explanation of "What is the physiology behind pyramiding", and fill in all the missing puzzle pieces.

Here again you wish to discuss various wild climate conditions and yet you dismiss thousands of obvious examples that prove points in both directions of this debate as anecdotal. Here is the thing about anecdotes, stereotypes, personal observations, etc: Sometimes they are accurate and true. Sure there are exceptions, but as another forum member noted, "sometimes the exception proves the rule."



Testudoresearch said:


> The problem is that you can have what appear to be very smooth tortoises externally, but which internally, have very poor bone mineral density - with fibrous lesions and poor mass.


Really Andy? You are now going to tell us that all of these sulcata and leopard tortoises raised in 80% humidity with ideal diets, regular soaks, lots of exercise and sunshine in outdoor enclosures, have "poor bone density - with fibrous lesions and poor mass." This is borderline offensive. Where is your evidence than any of my tortoises have any such thing going on? I'll tell you what. I will put my money where my mouth is: You send me the money to have ANY of my tortoises x-rayed and I will take them to the vet and then post the X-rays right here in public. Here is your chance to prove me wrong. Here is your chance to demonstrate with physical evidence that what you say is true. And if any of my tortoises have poor bone density, fibrous lesions or poor mass, I will eat my words, publicly apologize, and give you back your money. Then I will thank you for the education. What do I get if you are wrong and my tortoises are fine with healthy bone growth? I mean besides some free x-rays?

So again... lets stop talking about what might or might not be happening in wild tortoise climates, and lets talk about pyramiding. Specifically, what causes it and how do we prevent it in our captive enclosures? I have found one way to prevent it, and yes it does prevent it even if the mechanism isn't known to me. If you have another way, I'd like to learn it and see it demonstrated. Please no more debate about who is right or wrong or phantom bone anomalies that you couldn't possibly know exist or not, or who is ignorant of wild conditions.

WHAT CAUSES PYRAMIDING AND WHAT METHOD DO YOU ADVOCATE FOR PREVENTING IT IN LEOPARD TORTOISES AND SULCATAS?


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## BeeBee*BeeLeaves

What a fascinating and wonderful thread to read, thank you all ... please do continue ... my friend in Nqweba Dam and I were just wading through ...


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## nearpass

BeeBee*BeeLeaves said:


> What a fascinating and wonderful thread to read, thank you all ... please do continue ... my friend in Nqweba Dam and I were just wading through ...



Thank you for lightening things up a bit 

My summary so far, extrapolating from all the posts, is that no one knows for sure what causes pyramiding, but there are likely different causes which play out differently depending on species and environment. Contributing factors can be: humidity levels, hydration, diet (quantity and quality thereof), age, rate of growth, species...and probably others I've missed. If there were a hard and fast, quantitative answer, someone would have published that long before this. Also, pyramiding has a variety of manifestations, not all of which are necessarily harmful.

I believe most of us here try to do our best and educate ourselves as much as possible, hence I welcome this thread, and will probably print it out to read several times. We should acknowledge that keeping many species of animals is a constant evolution of information, and that there are probably no 'right' methods...they are evolving constantly too. Information has certainly changed vastly in my life time.


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## Testudoresearch

Tom said:


> You are now going to tell us that all of these sulcata and leopard tortoises raised in 80% humidity with ideal diets, regular soaks, lots of exercise and sunshine in outdoor enclosures, have "poor bone density - with fibrous lesions and poor mass."



I am not going to tell you any such thing, because I have not examined enough of them to know. I can certainly tell you that _some _of the animals raised using that methodology _do_ have such problems, however. In one case, I was able to examine a Russian tortoise raised in that type of environment, which subsequently died from an unrelated infection. It had been reared on a high growth rate regime, but outwardly looked quite good. There was no extensive 'pyramiding', but some degree of spinal region depression. The keeper was fairly pleased with it. However - there were extensive fibrous lesions present throughout the skeleton, and the bone was thickened and of poor density. If we can get back to the topic.... I am trying to explain this. Please be patient. It is not a simple thing.

If you find anything factually incorrect in what follows, do point it out. 

First, I would just make it clear that no tortoises have ever been harmed for any study I have been involved in. All material is derived either from finds in the field (predator victims, etc.), road casualties and specimens donated by keepers and veterinarians. Many specimens are found just like this:







This provides both skeletal and keratin material for analysis.

This is a very typical Testudo graeca graeca carapace section. Please note - the species is not that relevant, the structure of G. pardalis, G. sulcata, T. horsfielii and most other terrestrial tortoises is very, very similar indeed. 






The basic 'shell' is formed of a fused rib structure. This is inherently quite a strong structure in terms of resistance to external pressure directed towards the body cavity. The bone is (as you can see) quite thin and very dense. This is overlaid (in life) by a thin membrane packed with blood vessels and nerve endings. Also, in life, the bone itself is not 'bone dry', but rich in moisture. It is alive. This outer membrane supplies the basal area of the scutes with blood and nutrients. It is from this that the keratin cells that form the scutes are generated. There are two prime modes of keratin cell generation and deposition in chelonia. One mode is used by many aquatic turtles. In this mode, new keratin cells push up vertically across the entire plane of the base of each scute. From the inside, out, as it were, in one go. This is why you do not see "growth rings" in those species - and also why in those species, old scute tissue is shed in one go.. to be replaced by a completely new scute, underneath. Like this.






It will be noted that 'pyramiding' is not seen in the same form in these species as it is in terrestrial chelonia (though other carapace deformities can and do occur).

Terrestrial tortoises use a different mode of keratin-cell deposition (epidermal proliferation). In this mode, new cells are predominantly deposited *at the edges *of the scutes, again building from the inside surface. This is what is responsible for the well-known 'tree ring' effect. 

Keratin is a very interesting material, with some remarkable properties. I will return to it shortly.

Tom mentioned some of these captive-reared, intensely deformed animals. This is a classic (and tragic) example.






This is what it looks like inside.






Look carefully. You can clearly see the porous nature of the skeleton, and how the bone itself is deformed precisely matching the scute deformities. The bone is extremely weak. This is very typical of such cases. That is a juvenile G. sulcata, by the way.

For comparison, here are two wild tortoise carapaces viewed internally.











Here, the bone is dense, with no abnormal lesions. This is very healthy, well-formed bone. It has excellent strength and mineralization.

Compare a wild tortoise plastron, here:






To one from a tortoise that suffered 'pyramiding', here:






Again, the characteristic lesions are present. The bone is of poor density and poorly mineralized. It lacks strength and fractures easily. This is classic "MBD".

These two sections (bridge region) graphically illustrate the situation. First from a wild tortoise.






Now, from a CB tortoise that had severe 'pyramiding'.






The differences are obvious. These are Testudo examples, but an absolutely identical situation occurs right across the spectrum of terrestrial tortoises. It makes zero difference if it is a Testudo, a Geochelone, an Indotestudo or even a Kinixys. This pattern of growth and the presentation of MBD *is identical.* 

More to follow.


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## wellington

Very interesting. The pics are great for understanding better for us that likes visuals.


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## Yellow Turtle

This thread is interesting as all other threads debating about pyramiding cause.

Well, as other hobbyist, I'm very eager to know all of this. But I'm very curious as well for Testudoresearch's id. Is it really Andy CH, or someone using similar name to put all the pictures here? We all know Andy's pov for pyramiding, and many have read his latest article on pyramiding cause, which is more or less the same with what is presented here. Personally, I'd be happy to have Andy here to share his views, as I've read many of his publications online.

I too, not raising any tortoise inside closed chamber due to thinking that it doesn't seem so natural. I put all my torts outside, but I do spray them a lot during hottest days. But I admit all the good results shared by other fellow members here, that this method is the best currently for smoothing captive tortoises. I'm eager to see the X-Ray result of all of those tortoises who have been raised inside the closed chambers as well and will be happy to know that they develop good bone density, as this will be a good contribution to hobbyist caring for their torts.

At the end of the day, I'm all ears about the scientific things presented here, but would expect that Andy or Testudoresesearch shares us the husbandry to raise non pyramiding tortoises. That's the only reason why many forum members following Tom's closed chambers and getting good results. For me, as I raise mines all outdoor, will be very eager to know an outdoor husbandry which can provide 100% smooth tortoise with 100% good bone density and healthy ones.


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## Testudoresearch

Let's consider bone in a bit more detail. Most of us think of bone as a rather fixed, static thing. The reality, however, is very different, at least in a live animal (or human). It is certainly inert when dead.. but when living it is a constantly renewing, highly 'plastic' substance. It just tends to move slowly... so we rarely notice it, but it certainly moves.

I apologize for the descent into some technical jargon here, but this is a very valuable quote, worth taking the time to read and think about. It is from a paper called "Plasticity and toughness in bone" by Robert O. Ritchie, Markus J. Buehler, and Paul Hansma (June 2009 Physics Today).

_Results suggest that permanent deformation, or plasticity, in bone occurs from multiple, concurrent deformation mechanisms that are active at all hierarchical levels. To appreciate the deformation mechanisms in bone, consider again its different structural levels. Individual collagen molecules deform by stretching and unwinding due first to entropic and then to energetic mechanisms that involve H-bond breaking. In collagen fibrils, molecular stretching competes with intermolecular sliding and the breaking of both weak and strong bonds between tropocollagen molecules. Those sliding motions enable bone to endure large plastic strain without suffering a catastrophic â€œbrittleâ€ failure._

This is important. *Bone is highly plastic.* Deformation can be caused by an extended period of low-level stress. One example is seen in the bowed legs of people with rickets. The weight of the body and the pull of muscles deforms the bones.... various stressors can do this. Bone is at its most plastic very early in life. Here's a great example. A hatchling tortoise, straight from the egg.










As we know, this straightens out over the next hours and days...it does show just how flexible bone is in those early phases. This becomes less obvious, but this property does remain, and bone _can _change shape in response to various physical stresses.

The type of deformation presented in a chelonian carapace will depend upon the precise combination of deficiencies (or excesses) present, and at what point in the animals life cycle they occur, but usually fall into one or more of the following categories:

*Carapace flattened, depressed and soft.*

Typical of classic osteomalacia. Common in animals raised on severely calcium or vitamin D3 deficient dietary regimes. On radiological exam, the bone is of very low density, features mottled radiolucent areas, a coarse trabecular pattern and thinning of cortices (Fowler, 1986).






*Carapace displaying pyramid-like raised scutes, pelvic area often depressed.*

Typical of fibrous osteodystrophy (juvenile osteoporosis) and nutritional secondary hyperparathyroidism. The condition is also known as â€œButcherâ€™s Dog Diseaseâ€ in canines. This type of deformity is most often observed on animals raised on higher protein, high phosphorus content, high energy, low calcium diets at high growth rates. In many cases, the keratin scutes are thicker and more melanistic than normal, and beaks and claws will be overgrowth due to excess keratin production (Jepson, 2006). Radiological presentation includes diffuse changes in opacity, obvious osteopenia, and abnormally thickened bones of the carapace. There may be pathological folding or compression fractures and coarse trabeculation (Dennis, Kirkberger, Wrigley and Barr, 2001).






Muscular tensions have a direct effect, and this is again most often seen in those cases where the bone is weak and MBD is present in one form or another. 

â€œThe muscles of the pectoral (shoulders) and pelvic (hips) girdles pull on the relatively weak shell as the disease progresses. The rear end of the carapace is pulled downwards and the carapace edges curl upwards.â€ (Redrobe, undated). The same relationship between the deformity of the carapace and appendicular muscle tension was noted by Frye (1991). 

Writing in Veterinary Nursing of Exotic Pets, Girling (2003) observes that â€œThe plastron and carapace are weakened due to the hypomineralisation which allows the muscles to deform their structure. This is particularly obvious over the internal attachments of the fore- and hind limbs where depressions are seenâ€.

In the case of the chelonian carapace, these muscular tensions exert a downward and inward force, producing the characteristic flat, sunken type of carapace deformity.

Another important muscular force acting internally upon the carapace is the result of the unique mode of chelonian respiration (Oâ€™Malley, 2005). In terrestrial species, during inhalation, the serratus muscle arises from the front of the carapace to insert on the coracoid while the abdominal obliquus inserts on the skin of the hindlimb. These two muscles, when they contract, result in negative pressure and active inspiration. During expiration the contraction of the pectoralis (which extends from the plastron to the humerus) and tranversus abdominus at the back of the carapace contract, expelling air in the lungs (Gans and Hughes, 1967; Wood and Lenfant, 1976). Here is a particularly terrible example of that.






I am including all this detail so that there can be no doubt what is causing these particular deformities, and to demonstrate conclusively that carapaces can be - in simple terms - pulled out of shape. 

Three classes of animal are most susceptible. Juveniles, younger tortoises undergoing a rapid growth phase, and tortoises where MBD is present. These are the very same classes also subject to the highest incidence of 'pyramiding''. This is no coincidence.

More to follow


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## Tom

Testudoresearch said:


> ...First, I would just make it clear that no tortoises have ever been harmed for any study I have been involved in. All material is derived either from finds in the field (predator victims, etc.), road casualties and specimens donated by keepers and veterinarians. Many specimens are found just like this:
> 
> 
> More to follow.





I'm with you so far. I have also seen many pyramided and un-pyramided shell cross sections. Most of the ones I've seen were Gopherus agassizii, but also a few leopards and sulcatas. I think yours has been the best and most complete explanation of this subject so far. Thank you for the pics, and please continue.


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## Team Gomberg

Great pictures. 



Testudoresearch said:


> The problem is that you can have what appear to be very smooth tortoises externally, but which internally, have very poor bone mineral density - with fibrous lesions and poor mass.



These pictures don't show what you said about those that look good externally. 
They show tortoises who were pyramiding and/or suffered from MBD with the "poor bone density - with fibrous lesions and poor mass."


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## Yvonne G

Well, so far, so good. I love seeing those pictures. But you still haven't answered the question, "What is the physiology behind pyramiding?", have you...or did I miss it?


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## Testudoresearch

Thank you, and yes, 'tis I. I did not wish to distract from consideration of the data on its own merits. It is very late here in Southern Spain (2.30 am) but I will try to continue for a little while. We have seen above that bone is plastic and can be "pulled out of shape". Let's take a look a keratin. Sorry again for having to draw on some unfamiliar terminology - but this is a highly complex subject, and if I oversimplify too much I would (rightly) be accused of failing to present a sufficiently well-documented case. 

Keratin has many interesting and valuable properties. One of these is that it is hygroscopic and takes up water in equilibrium with atmospheric humidity (Spearman, 1973). *Keratin becomes notably pliable in the presence of high humidity and high temperatures *(Shelley, 1954). This property was routinely exploited in the working of objects made from tortoiseshell, obtained from the carapace of the critically endangered Hawksbill turtle (Eretmochelys imbricata). The same property will also be familiar to anyone who takes a hot bath: human toe and fingernails respond in a similar manner. Veterinary problems associated with â€œwet footâ€ are also common in equines, where the keratin of the hoof may become over soft and vulnerable to trauma and infection if the animal is maintained on an excessively wet substrate (Reca, 2005). Similar issues have been identified with the beta-keratin of Ostrich claws when subjected to varying levels of ambient humidity (Bonser, 2000).* Studies conducted on a wide range of keratins suggest that at relative humidity levels above 80% and below 20% profound changes in both the molecular structure and mechanical properties of keratins occur *(Leeder and Watt, 1965, Duer, et.al. 2003). At levels of relative *humidity above 80%* absorption of water molecules by keratin is considerable (Leeder and Watt, 1965), and this has a very significant effect upon the mechanical properties of the scute, resulting in a major degree of softening and reduction in stiffness. The effect of increasing humidity on the Youngâ€™s modulus of keratin was profound, with 410MPa at 100% RH and 3.36 GPa at 53% RH. (Bonser, 2002). T*he effect of humidity on a wide range of keratins shows a consistent reduction in stiffness and in hardness as humidity and hydration is increased *(Fraser and MacRea, 1980, Tombolato, et. al 2010). These effects occur both in vitro and in vivo. In living animals with a horny keratinised hoof or scute, the interior of the keratin layer, adjoining the proximal germinative region, maintains a high level of hydration, and the* outer surface (unless the animal is in water) will attempt to equilibriate to the lower, prevailing ambient level *(Bertram and Gosline, 1987). The thicker the keratin layer the greater the potential for an increased differential between the two surfaces.

*OK.... we now, for the first time have a direct and verifiable link between a tortoise's tissue and external environmental humidity.*

So, when we subject a tortoise to very low external humidity, the very molecular structure of the keratin changes. It becomes stiffer and exerts a mechanical stress on the underlying bone. This becomes most acute if RH drops to circa 20%. Precisely those conditions do often exist directly beneath heat lamps. RH there can be _incredibly_ low. I have recorded levels of 11%..... for sustained periods. This is far below what any 'desert' species would experience in nature. In addition... when discussing all this with Frances Baines (of the UV Guide), Frances alerted me to the fact that with the exception of some very special medical lamps, all normal reptile incandescent lamps are emitting high levels of IR-A. I will quote Frances directly:

_"Sunlight (aldo) emits short-wavelength infrared (IR-A) which is filtered by the water vapour in the atmosphere. So it has been "drained" of energy in the wavelengths best absorbed by water.... in other words, the wavelengths which heat up water most strongly have already been removed from the sunlight before it hits the tortoise. The remaining wavelengths of IR-A penetrate gently and deeply into skin, muscle and bone and can warm an animal -literally - to the core. This beautiful "water-filtered IR-A" is what makes sunlight the perfect basking light.... as Andy says, warming the entire basking animal evenly and deeply.

On the other hand, incandescent lamps, halogen lamps, self-ballasted mercury vapour lamps, so-called "infrared" red bulbs... any lamp producing heat and light - also emit IR-A ...BUT.... there is only a tiny distance, usually less than a couple of feet, between lamp and reptile. You'd need maybe a mile of atmosphere to absorb those water-heating wavelengths.... So where is the first water those rays from a lamp encounter? Yep.... The water in and around the living cells of the reptile's skin, or in the case of the tortoise, in the living cells of its carapace"._

So there we have another intense drying effect. Heating and driving water molecules from the keratin. I actually have a lot of data on this, but it is not really necessary to go into it in depth here.

The basic situation is quite simply that if you "bake" keratin you dry it. The drier it gets, the stuffer it gets, and the more mechanical stress it can exert on underlying, plastic bone. This is one explanation of why these ultra-dry enclosures are so especially damaging and are so frequently associated with very severe forms of "pyramiding". 

One very interesting effect has been demonstrated in laboratory tests with chelonia. As they are subjected to extended periods of dehydration, the epidermis thickens in an attempt to reduce cutaneous evaporative losses. This affects the skin of the limbs, and in particular the proliferation of beta-keratin that comprises the horny scutes. *As the animal is subjected to dehydration, the scute growth accelerates, becoming ever thicker. Bone growth however does not accelerate at the same rate, producing a major differential.* This thickened, dry keratin begins to exert an enormously amplified force upon the skeleton (which in such animals is typically of very poor density). This is one other very important reason why we tend to see particularly badly deformed animals that have been raised in conditions of sub-optimal humidity. *Where accelerated growth (and typically MBD) meets dangerously low levels of humidity the conditions are ideal for producing gross distortions of the carapace* due to the conflicting physical stresses of muscular tension and tension resulting from over-proliferation of the keratin scutes.







Thickened keratin and gross deformity in a Geochelone chilensis showing characteristic upward deformity of scutes, aka 'pyramiding' 






Very clear illustration of the 'upward' stresses from keratin proliferation in a Geochelone radiata. 

Take the reverse situation. Subject the tortoise to high (80%+) levels of ambient humidity for extended periods. Keep it very warm. Soak/spray the carapace regularly. This too has a huge effect on the keratin as we have read above. It softens it. _It changes the Young's Modulus dramatically._ Physical stresses on the underlying bone are reduced.... the bones are not "pulled out of shape" by the keratin, and over-thick keratin is not generated. _This is the prime physiological mechanism behind the "high humidity" maintenance system. 
_

One big issue however, is that it _can_ have the consequence of suppressing a _symptom_ of MBD, while doing nothing to address the underlying situation. I say 'can'. I am not saying this is always or automatically the case. It is a risk, though. It can happen. It does not have any effect upon the need to generate high quality bone in the first place. If your nutrition or UVB is not adequate, MBD will still occur. The underlying bone will still be weak - even if it is not visibly deformed. All this does is remove or reduce the physical stress from keratin - it has no other effect.

Another potential problem is that wet keratin is much more vulnerable to bacterial and fungal attack. Again, human toenails can suffer for the same reasons! It is not an inevitable consequence, but it is most certainly a risk.. and I have seen such problems. 

A quick summary to date.

Keratin proliferates differently between most aquatic turtles and terrestrial tortoises.

Keratin responds dramatically to changes in humidity and temperature (this is why human hairs were often used in humidity measuring devices).

If the bone is compromised due to MBD, or is very flexible as a result of new growth or the young age of the animal, it will deform far more readily than in a fully developed, older animal.

The specific stresses upon the underlying bone relating to keratin are two-fold; the proliferation of new beta-keratin cells at the edges of the scute that result in an uplifting force (Alibardi) on the older corneous center, and tensions resulting from expansion and contraction as a consequence of hydration status. Where the keratin has an excessively low moisture content and becomes stiff these stresses will be maximised, and where the moisture content is excessively high they will be minimised, as the keratin becomes increasingly soft and pliable. 

*It is proposed that this is the mechanism responsible for the reported relationship between humidity levels in captive maintenance and so-called scute â€œpyramidingâ€ in terrestrial tortoises.*

There some areas we still need to know more about - particularly why some tortoises seem to have a similar 'deformed' scute formation, but _without _any concurrent MBD or any other detectable pathology. These, for example...






But that will have to do for now. Time for bed.

Hope you have found this interesting and that it has given you something to think about.


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## tortadise

Yes. Please do explain what you can on the psammobates(pictured lastly) I am very curious as to the differences of a smoothly grown chilensis(wild of course and when I use smooth it is used in context similar to a pardalis) compared to that of the tents that naturally "pyramid" especially when found in similar climactic zones.


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## MasterOogway

Jacqui said:


> Testudoresearch, I just want to say how happy I am that have you have joined our forum and are sharing with us your experiences, thoughts and knowledge! Please do not stop.



I also want to extend a welcome. I am enjoying this thread. I have great respect for you and Tom discussing also disagreeing without belittling one another but instead challenging each other in a positive fashion. Its a breath of fresh air and an interesting thread. Welcome


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## Sulcata_Sandy

Do you have normal radiographs for examples? Since I don't have access to a DEXA unit, just your average "analog" machine, I'd love to compare your findings with mine, I radiograph every tortoise that comes in, whether a rescue or for my personal collection.

Tom, if you lived up here, I'd radiograph all of yours! [SMILING FACE WITH SMILING EYES]

Wait...I lied...I've not xray'd Oliver...he's too enormous for our table, and I can't get the mAs high enough to blast thru that shell without causing a brown-out in western Oregon. LOL

Excellent, data, excellent comparative images. This is a greatly educational debate. Tom, I'm on board with you as well. You have carefully documented many years of hard work and have paid the price. Your recommendations and experience are highly valued.


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## FLINTUS

I am curious by saying it is the same with Kinixys. I have only seen pictures of 3 properly pyramided kinixys species. A lobatsiana, a homeana which went very white and a nogueyi-the latter was thought of as a Russian. They seem to stay smooth even with poor care, but I would be interested to see a cross section of a smooth, captive one. I have seen a few slightly raised scutes on others, but most people would still interpret it as 'smooth'. They also seem to grow differently to other species. With my reds, and other species I have observed, you have clear white growth lines in periods of fast growth. With my erosa, the scutes kind of move apart to form a small depression which is later filled in with new growth which looks the same as the old. I will try and get some pics when I get back on Monday.


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## Testudoresearch

Moving rapidly on...

I will address some of the above points shortly. I would like to cover 'wild pyramiding' and what _might_ be happening with Tent tortoises first. Then just give a summary of the husbandry practices that can be used to raise very nice looking tortoises, with excellent bone growth - or at least the methods I now employ to do so. 

First the mystery of 'natural' pyramiding. This has been a subject that has fascinated me and frustrated me in equal measure. Of course, it is all a matter of degree too - I totally agree with Tom that in pardalis, for example, you _never _see anything wild as bad as some of these captive-raised examples. Never. Not even close.

This also applies to many other species. What you do see, though, are _somewhat _raised scutes. Simply not perfectly flat. A few examples.






An adult wild T. marginata in Greece. The central point of the scutes is definitely _raised to a degree_. That's a wild juvenile found in the same area. That one is very 'smooth'. Interesting point: That adult marginata is much darker than average.






Yes, this is a 100% wild Testudo graeca graeca juvenile (2-3 years of age). You saw this before next to my own CB T. g. g. Again, there is some degree of raising present - look at the frontal vertebral. It is obvious there.






This is a wild young adult Testudo nabeulensis in Tunisia. Once more - not entirely smooth. Certainly not 'deformed', but some clear evidence of raising.






Wild Testudo hermanni hermanni in Italy. Slight raising present. 

This is fairly common. I stress again - nothing like the 'deformed' captives we are all so concerned about, but not 100% 'perfectly smooth' either. Whether you call this "pyramiding" or not is debatable. Some may overlook it, I would note it, and would include examples on this scale in the 15-20% of animals I'd regard as having some degree present.

More significant. and certainly more obvious, is this section of a wild G. pardalis carapace. This is a fine example of what I am talking about.






There is no evidence of *any pathological* problem here. The bone is of _excellent_ density throughout the entire carapace. There are no abnormal lesions. It looks near perfect from a bone density/quality perspective. Yet... the degree of centrai scute raising is very significant. This is very similar to what I have observed in many other wild Leopard tortoises. Another view from inside:






This is right over the pelvic girdle. If there was a major pathological problem, you should see it here - but these structures are excellent and everything about this skeleton appears normal and very, very healthy. Those of you who have studied carapace bones... would you agree?

So - what is happening?

As I said, this perplexed me for a very long time. Only when the keratin-stress data emerged did it even begin to make sense. This is what I _think _is happening.

Semi-arid habitat tortoises feed, typically, in two cycles per year. This is where the bulk of food is consumed, especially the in the Spring season, on fresh growth. This is more digestible and higher in energy than later Fall growth. Higher energy and more digestible = promotes more rapid growth. This is confirmed by field data and measurements. New bone growth is more sensitive to stress deformation than old, more stable bone. A lot of new keratin is also generated at this same time. _Animals in especially arid zones seem more susceptible than equivalent animals in more moderate zones. _ This also explains the degree of variability. Not all years are the same. Sometimes you get more regular rainfall and somewhat higher ambient humidity and for longer periods than other... some years are unusually dry. Also, different tortoise can behave in slightly different ways, making different microhabitat choices (digging down more - or less, for example). It is my opinion that the _fundamental physiological mechanism _is the same as seen in pathological 'pyramiding', namely, the varying mechanical stresses induced in bone by keratin, but that in these animals, the bone is not un-healthy. Quite the opposite - so it resists these stresses to a much, much greater degree. Even so, extended stresses _can_ cause some displacement.

In the case of pardalis, the surface area of the scutes is quite large... also, they do tend to have quite a thick, protective layer of scute material vs. some other species. I _speculate _that this large area of quite dense keratin, acting on a permanent basis, can and does 'pull' even good, strong bone to conformity. 

More reliable field data, from more species, would be very useful in this context. This is why I say I 'think' this is what is happening in these wild animals. In terms of the mechanical stress-humidity connection, I _know_ that is what is going on. Both the theoretical and experimental data confirms it beyond doubt (to my satisfaction, at least).

Psammobates...






I used to think this was probably genetic. Now I am minded to _suspect_ otherwise. I _think _the primary mechanism is the same. They inhabit a very arid Karoo-Veld zone. They are also cyclic feeders. I _suspect_ (but cannot prove) that some also respond to those conditions by generating quite thick keratin as a defence against dehydration... that would (if true) amplify such stresses. Purely subjective observation here, but I _think_ I see a trend where the darker examples are more 'pyramided' than very light examples... I am not claiming this as a fact. I could be wrong. I have not seen enough to be sure. Unfortunately, museum specimens are also thin on the ground, and obtaining osteological and scute specimens for more detailed study is very difficult. So I acknowledge this particular issue as no more than a vague theory.

Sorry I can't be more specific on the Psammobates question. If it is NOT genetic, and NOT the above, then there is some completely different and entirely unique mechanism in action in these that we know absolutely nothing about.


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## Yellow Turtle

Testudoresearch, your whole explanations are the most clear articles to describe pyramiding in tortoise compare to others. The added pictures are also very helpful.

But as I mentioned last time, I read most of those things already in the past. Although i wouldn't mind reading it again now, but the question always coming back to me. How would you do so different to raise a captive tortoise outdoor and get a 100% smooth result as shown in your perfect scute pardalis?

Also I recall you mention taking humidities data 1 meter above ground (as the SOP) and also on tortoise level. Can you share the graph plots for those data along the year? Especially for humidity in sulcata and pardalis natural habitat.

Please enlighten us.

Thanks.


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## Testudoresearch

Yellow Turtle said:


> Also I recall you mention taking humidities data 1 meter above ground (as the SOP) and also on tortoise level. Can you share the graph plots for those data along the year? Especially for humidity in sulcata and pardalis natural habitat.



Thank you.

Regarding data from both G. sulcata and G. pardalis habitats, I simply do not feel I have enough of publishable quality. I have some that I have gathered myself, and other material from kind and dedicated people who have shared some of theirs with me. It is 'patchy' and not consistent, however (different equipment used, uncertain calibration, possible errors in methodology - and plain and simple not enough of it).

It takes *years *to gather _quality _data. You can't do it by just making occasional visits. I did that for years, and still could not get the detail necessary. Even living in Morocco for months at a time left significant gaps. The only real way to do it is essentially to relocate and 'move in' with the tortoises you are trying to study! You can then _be there_ when unusual weather conditions occur... you can follow individuals... you can begin to build up a more accurate annual pattern... you can correlate behavior with climate.... even then, as anyone who has done much field work with tortoises can confirm, i*t is not easy*. Tortoises are often found in difficult terrain, and have large ranges. Lost a tortoise ever in a garden? Try finding one in 10,000 acres of thorny scrub at temperatures of 32C or in the middle of a rainstorm (click link for some photos of these habitats and data collection in progress). You can be out there day after day with nothing to show for it.

It is very hard work and very time-consuming. This past few weeks I have been locating hibernating animals and planting data-recorder probes next to them. Recording temperature fluctuations, RH and soil moisture levels. I have been doing that now for 4 years. It would be _fantastic _to have similar data taken right next to pardalis and sulcata over the same kind of periods. It will have to be someone else who does that, though, as I am fully occupied gathering data on T. g. graeca! All you need are some good quality instruments, and the determination to go out there and do it. It is more rewarding than just talking about it.

Yes, I will get some practical guidelines up. It may take a day or so, however. I am drafting something new right now.

Thank you again for your comments.


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## Tom

Testudoresearch,

All of this info and your manner of presenting it is EXCELLENT. Top notch. I can't thank you enough for taking the substantial amount of time to share this all with us.

As I read through and related your observations and study points to what I have learned with my captive observations and experiments, EVERYTHING you have presented here backs up MY assertions. Everything. Not one contradiction. For years I have been saying, "Pyramiding is CAUSED by growth in overly dry conditions." I have attempted to use the analogy of braces on human teeth to attempt to explain the malformation of the bone under the overly dry scute material in some of our captive environments. YOUR explanation has been VASTLY superior to mine. You have also added some significant pieces of the puzzle for me. For example, the info about the drying nature of our indoor heat bulbs. I knew it was bad, but I didn't know it was THAT bad. I have done some experiments with providing other heat sources with positive results and I've been in contact with some other people doing the same thing.

Also, given your excellent explanation of the hygroscopic nature of keratin, I don't see how this differs from my initial proposed theory at the very beginning of this thread. In the past I have equated the keratin to a sponge after noting obvious differences in the scute material after a long sunning session here in the hot dry desert, followed by a nice warm rehydrating soak. I even did a thread on this. I was fumbling around in the dark a bit, but I did manage to stumble upon some some of the points you elucidated here. Please read this thread from all the way back in October of 2010 and tell me how I was wrong, even more than three years ago: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-19252.html

Now I am hoping that you will give us a care and set-up regime to follow that utilizes and takes advantage of all the principals that you have so eloquently enumerated here. MY interpretation of what to do with this info seems to be different than yours. I think THAT is where our disagreement is going to lie. There have been many discussions here on TFO about providing "optimal" conditions year round, or intentionally providing less than optimal conditions for part of the year in an attempt to simulate what we think happens in the wild. I will be especially interested in your recommendations for housing leopards since they have such an ENORMOUS variety of wild habitats, and most of the captive ones here in the US are of totally unknown or mixed origins. Obviously they cannot be housed outdoors year round in a place like New York, for example, so how do you think they ought to be housed when indoors?

In case you missed it above, THANK YOU for sharing your time and experience with us.


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## tortadise

Sulcata_Sandy said:


> Do you have normal radiographs for examples? Since I don't have access to a DEXA unit, just your average "analog" machine, I'd love to compare your findings with mine, I radiograph every tortoise that comes in, whether a rescue or for my personal collection.
> 
> Tom, if you lived up here, I'd radiograph all of yours! [SMILING FACE WITH SMILING EYES]
> 
> Wait...I lied...I've not xray'd Oliver...he's too enormous for our table, and I can't get the mAs high enough to blast thru that shell without causing a brown-out in western Oregon. LOL
> 
> Excellent, data, excellent comparative images. This is a greatly educational debate. Tom, I'm on board with you as well. You have carefully documented many years of hard work and have paid the price. Your recommendations and experience are highly valued.



You have to set it to bone and shoot one left and one right to achieve results. Soft tissue shots wont show what you need to look for.


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## nearpass

Tom said:


> Testudoresearch,
> You have also added some significant pieces of the puzzle for me. For example, the info about the drying nature of our indoor heat bulbs. I knew it was bad, but I didn't know it was THAT bad. I have done some experiments with providing other heat sources with positive results and I've been in contact with some other people doing the same thing.
> 
> Obviously they cannot be housed outdoors year round in a place like New York, for example, so how do you think they ought to be housed when indoors?
> 
> In case you missed it above, THANK YOU for sharing your time and experience with us.



These are some points that really struck me, also, especially since I live in NY! I, too, had no idea how drying the lights that are recommended for us are! My tortoises are outside from the end of May through most of September, but what about the rest of the year?

Tom, what alternate light/heat sources have you been experimenting with?

Thank you, from me also, for a fascinating discussion.


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## Sulcata_Sandy

tortadise said:


> Sulcata_Sandy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do you have normal radiographs for examples? Since I don't have access to a DEXA unit, just your average "analog" machine, I'd love to compare your findings with mine, I radiograph every tortoise that comes in, whether a rescue or for my personal collection.
> 
> Tom, if you lived up here, I'd radiograph all of yours! [SMILING FACE WITH SMILING EYES]
> 
> Wait...I lied...I've not xray'd Oliver...he's too enormous for our table, and I can't get the mAs high enough to blast thru that shell without causing a brown-out in western Oregon. LOL
> 
> Excellent, data, excellent comparative images. This is a greatly educational debate. Tom, I'm on board with you as well. You have carefully documented many years of hard work and have paid the price. Your recommendations and experience are highly valued.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You have to set it to bone and shoot one left and one right to achieve results. Soft tissue shots wont show what you need to look for.
Click to expand...


Yah, that's the problem with an old machine. We can barely image giant breed dogs. We need a new unit, but our hospital is rural, and doesn't get the big business the city hospitals do to afford a new or even used digital. I can increase the KV to 128, but if the mAs is over 20 I get an error message and it won't fire. Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

But I can get some nicely detailed shots of my small/medium tortoises. [SMILING FACE WITH SMILING EYES]

I have a newly acquired RF female, 11.5" who is WC. Her shell is as smooth as glass.



I plan to image her soon. I'm very interested to see her bone density compared to my other rescues.


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## julietteq

I live in NY! I, too, had no idea how drying the lights that are recommended for us are! My tortoises are outside from the end of May through most of September, but what about the rest of the year?

Tom, what alternate light/heat sources have you been experimenting with?

[/quote]

Yes, I would be very interested in hearing about alternating heat sources as well.


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## Tom

Juliette and nearpass,

I don't want to sidetrack this excellent thread so I will do a more thorough thread elsewhere. Just a quick explanation though: I have done thermostat regulated Kane heat mats set on a timer with a florescent light bulb over the mat. It stays off all night and in the morning the bulb and heat mat kick on. The tortoises totally understood this and it worked fine.

In my outdoor night boxes, I switched from CHEs which get VERY hot in one small spot (I say "small spot" in relation to a large tortoise in a large box. Its all relative.), to radiant heat panels. They basically do the same thing as a CHE but that same heat is spread out over a larger area. They get hot, but they don't get hot enough to burn even if the animal touches it. They were designed for large constrictors in large indoor plastic cages. It is difficult to put something so high up that a 18' long snake can't reach it, so they had to make something that would get the job done, but not burn the animal if it touched the heating element.

More on this later...


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## Team Gomberg

Sandy, will you share with us what you find on the smooth Redfoot?

TR, I also thank you for such detailed information. I, too will be curious to see what your housing recommendations are.


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## Testudoresearch

Tom said:


> For example, the info about the drying nature of our indoor heat bulbs. I knew it was bad, but I didn't know it was THAT bad.



Tom, thank you. I really appreciate your views on this.

Yes, these heatlamps. They bother me. It bothers me even more I used them for years myself without fully understanding what they could do. Here's just one test result that shows how drastic their effect can be. We started here with 70% RH in an open room. We placed a 100w MVB lamp at 50 cm above 'ground zero' then ran an extended on-off cycle test. 'Ground zero' is where your tortoise would sit. Right under it. The peaks are ambient... the 'troughs' are switched-on periods. Note how it falls almost immediately... and stays there (<20% in this test) before rising again when turned off. Then plummeting down again the next time it is tuned on. 







I call that pretty drastic, and frankly - scary. I freely confess when we started getting that data, that was the last time I personally used a basking lamp like that. Thousands of keepers are subjecting their tortoises to this every day and have no idea. When you add in Frances Baines' incredibly valuable observations on the unfiltered IR-A spectrum, it gets even worse. No wonder we are seeing a virtual 'epidemic' of deformed animals.

Not only that.... but you can see from this IR Thermograpy image that I took during the same test just how the very top of the carapace OVER heats... yet the body remains too cold. The heat distribution (especially in a tortoise of reasonable mass) is absolutely terrible. 






At the same ambient background temperature (22C) this is the heat distribution pattern under natural sunlight, outdoors.






There is no comparison. It is completely different..... 

Maybe this is why we see animals like these (each of which I know was raised indoors extensively, with reliance on overhead basking lamps)?






















Thickened keratin (protective response to ultra-low humidity?), gross deformities... even deep tissue burn trauma from localised over-heating, while the body stays cold... disrupting thermoregulation...

Very worrying indeed.


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## Team Gomberg

The IR-A spectrum is fascinating!!!


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## julietteq

I really feel this thread is fascinating and I really appreciate all of you spending so much time on educating us, but if you could also give us hands on tips how to improve our tortoises lives that would help so much!

Should we get rid of the heatlamps and use ambiant heat using Ceramic lamps, heating mats and heating panels? We could give them UV-B from specialized lights that do not emit heat (http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00B7P7LJU/?tag=exoticpetnetw-20 when it is bathtime maybe?


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## Yellow Turtle

Testudoresearch said:


> Thickened keratin (protective response to ultra-low humidity?), gross deformities... even deep tissue burn trauma from localised over-heating, while the body stays cold... disrupting thermoregulation...



I used this MVB lamp before, and just like you recorded, I also found the same low humidity (less than 30%) as soon as the light was on. That's the reason I used humidifier before stop to use the MVB completely.

I would like to assume that is the reason why a closed chamber would be better to use for indoor enclosure. It traps humidity inside and I don't think you will get those terrible 20% RH reading in there, even with MVB used as heating lamp.

So can you share us what kind of heating element you used to raise the balling smooth G. pardalis in page 3? You did mention the use of UVB tube and vitamin D to replace the poor natural UVB level there. But what about the heater, as it seemed that pardalis was mostly kept indoor all year?

Saying it again, but I'm still waiting eagerly for you to share your husbandry both indoor and outdoor to raise smooth tortoises.


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## ulkal

*AW: What is the physiology behind pyramiding?*

this thread is great, thanks for sharing your experience, knowledge, sources and potential methodological approaches/errors. looking forward to many more posts and interesting questions. im actually taking notes


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## edwardbo

Testtudoresearch,thank you for your patience. I apologize for the rudeness, ignorance,hostility and egos you have been met with ....with regard to lights/basking and temps; maybe good results can be had by "faking the turtle out" ,belly heat (for that core affect),good humidity( easily done)and LED lighting(not broiling /toasting the torts shell into deformity)toss in some UV, a decent diet and everything should be fine.your information distills into simplicity and common sense....your thoughts on the darkness of shell color ,short periods of gorging on high quality foods,good climate,bad climate and the torts good choices/poor choices ( I have boxies that I have to burry into hibernation,)are also going to be factually proven true. SO,could you"cure"pyramiding by grinding the shell down and adding moisture thus relieving the tugging on the "plastic "living tissue?providing the tort is still growing and nutritionally heathy....also how does a tort feel a gentle misting immediately ?....this has been the best read ever and if it doesn't qualify to be sticky I'll be shocked.(perhaps some editing to tidy it up a bit...)..Also, some of the know It alls are conspicuously absent ,good. We need people like you ,stay on my friend. Thank you again,


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## Testudoresearch

julietteq said:


> I really feel this thread is fascinating and I really appreciate all of you spending so much time on educating us, but if you could also give us hands on tips how to improve our tortoises lives that would help so much!
> 
> Should we get rid of the heatlamps and use ambiant heat using Ceramic lamps, heating mats and heating panels? We could give them UV-B from specialized lights that do not emit heat (http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00B7P7LJU/?tag=exoticpetnetw-20 when it is bathtime maybe?



I know it looks like we are just talking about problems... not answers, but I take the view that in order to provide reliable answers we absolutely must understand the nature of the problems first. Otherwise, we can come up with incomplete or misleading answers.

I understand the problems of keeping in colder climates. I did that myself for many years, and it was not easy. Not easy at all. My current _general _advice in respect of heat is this. 

1) Try to use natural sunlight as much as possible. It is the best. No lamp gets close. It is also free. No electric bills. When I lived in a colder climate I made extensive use of plastic agricultural 'tunnels'. These provided a massive amount of solar gain over outdoor ambient at very low cost (I also note Richard Fife has used similar setups). You can create dry... tropical... anything in between. Surprisingly some useful UVB gets through too (it does not pass to the same degree through normal glass). These were my own semi-arid zones in a very wet, cold climate next to the Irish Sea.
















A lot of 'detail' features present there. Ability to burrow and bury. Fairly abrasive substrate (helps keep keratin thickness down), etc. I also had outdoor areas, also using a fairly stony substrate, so they could outside in good weather (CB T. hermanni here)






If anyone thinks that substrate is _too _stony... no, it can be much more so in the wild.











Do not use substrates like these (pellets, woodchip). They are intensely hygroscopic and contribute to chronic dehydration. You can see it in these tortoises. 






Go for a deep (as possible) sandy/natural substrate they can bury in. 

2) I know this is not possible in all localities at all times of year. In those locations you are very likely forced to rely on indoor pens and some form of artificial heat/light. I now recommend fluorescent UVB tubes in those situations for light and UVB. For heat... try to reduce the _differential_ between ambient and basking temperature during daytimes, say to 12C. Giving a 22C ambient and 34C basking zone (this is for Testudo and similar species). For heat, you need a gentle *VERY WIDE BEAM SOURCE*. Not a narrow 'hot spot'. Really, a large flood source at a distance, not a 'spot' close too. This can be achieved in various ways. The basking zone needs to provide EVEN HEAT over an area *at least *as large as the animal. Narrow, concentrated basking zones are a huge problem. I am in complete agreement with Frances on this. We used to talk about "basking spots" - it is better to think of "basking zones". Concerning ceramic heaters and heat 'pad' type elements. This is what Frances says "The non-light-emitting ceramic heater, or heat plate, or heat mats, etc.... These do not emit short-wavelength IR-A, but almost entirely long wavelength IR-C. Sunlight contains hardly any IR-C. But when sunlight warms the ground, the hot substrate re-radiates the heat in the form of IR-C. (Hold your hand just above sunlit rock and feel this type of radiant heat coming off it). But IR-C from above isn't normal"

We also know that heat pads from below are a major problem too! However, large emitters wall-mounted at an angle? Not perfect, but preferable, I think, to a super-concentrated "hot spot" that effectively cooks your tortoise. I am being far too simplistic here, but the principle holds.

3) Humidity. You do not want sub 40% humidity for extended periods. You WILL get that if you start with a normal room at, say, 50%, and then use heat lamps. In those circumstances, it can fall to around 10% by the tortoise. In the above test we stated with 70% and it fell to <20%. That is a disaster. Not only these keratin issues, but also chronic dehydration... bladder 'stones'... renal failure. I do not use ultra-high humidity environments at all. By that, I mean anything over 70% in my own case. I keep it around 45-60%. In a dry house over winter, a whole room (warm air type) humidifier helps a lot. I get very good results with this indeed, and have done on numerous species (I do use higher for tropical forest species, however - but not semiarid habitat tortoises). Here's a CB graeca raised on humidity in that range, back in the UK, when I lived there.






That one was raised with a lot of 'indoor' time on the regime described here (diet included)... but basking lamp use was very restricted. I also used the plastic tunnel quite a lot. I realize that is probably not an option in an apartment or locality with really severe winters. 

Diet. Critical. The diet should be designed to maximize _healthy _bone generation. This diet probably looks OK to most keepers... but it is not.






Too digestible. Too low in fiber. This kind of diet promotes rapid growth, especially if over-fed. The vast majority of keepers over-feed. Most of these species are seasonally cyclic feeders. Not every day. You could write a book on this topic alone (in fact, I did) - the 'Tortoise & Turtle Feeding Manual' back in 2000. It is now out of print but a new, updated edition is due out early 2014. Avoid fruits with semi-arid and desert species. People think they help hydration.... they also cause diarrhea, loose stools, and fluid loss. They also accelerate gut function and change gut pH. I use none at all. I use higher calcium ratios than most people recommend. We financed a study on wild T. kleinmanni diets in Israel a couple of years ago... and the calcium-phosphorus ratio was as high as 14:1. Here in Spain, the wild graeca diets are also in that range. Very high. Many folks seem to think 2:1 is adequate. I disagree. Fiber content needs to be extremely high. 30-40%. Most diets are below 20%. Full recent article on this.
 (click link to read). This also shows food deprivation periods...

Yes - I do not feed every day if keeping tortoises indoors (which I do rarely these days). I give "off days". No extra light. No extra heat. No food. This slows growth up, and coincidentally reduces exposure to potentially damaging heat/light sources. They have "off days" in the wild too. Lots of them. More off days than on in some cases. Many keepers find this a difficult concept to accept...

That is just a brief summary, very incomplete, but includes the _basic _principles I have found to produce really healthy tortoises that are practically indistinguishable from wild specimens. Some of the animals raised on this regime are now producing 2nd generation offspring.

I have a very busy schedule this week, so have to leave it at that for the time being. I do hope you found this interesting. Thanks to all who contributed


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## edwardbo

People,I think your trying to make tort keeping difficult, it's not complex ,it's a hobby for the most part, enjoy it!.... What could you be taking notes on ?....now breeding that rare,specialized species is a different story.......keep it simple stu....... w/much love,later!


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## FLINTUS

This is an excellent subject. So basically we are saying to get rid of the old light beam style lamps, but as you said, there aren't many options. Just a thought, what about the poultry style bulbs, are they broader in their beam? Otherwise, perhaps this is something that Arcadia could look into as I know John has a strong interest in tortoises. With my guys, basking spots are not so essential, but lots of species desperately need them. 
Btw, if you have time Andy I would be interested to hear your opinion on the kinixys growth which I mentioned earlier in the thread.


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## Team Gomberg

Testudoresearch, if I had to recap your opinion in simple terms would I be accurate to say this:

You don't like the closed chambers and hot and humid method because you state the 80%-99% of constant RH is unnatural. You do think they benefit from the hydration offered by at least 40% RH. 
The intense basking spots are a main contributor to drying out the carapace. The keratin thickens and pulls leading to the extreme pyramiding in captivity. Heat should be provided in zones over a greater area than the single localized spot. 

You've given A LOT of information and if I'm trying to break it down to simple terms for understanding, then I'm sure others are as well. 
I have a few things to ask or comment on but I want to see if I understood you correctly first.


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## DeanS

edwardbo said:


> People,I think your trying to make tort keeping difficult, it's not complex ,it's a hobby for the most part, enjoy it!



Interesting concept! I think the idea here is to simplify tortoise keeping. I don't see this as a hobby per se! It's more of a custodial responsibility we've chosen to take part in...and we (all) want to get it right! I did not criticize or downplay any of Andy's statements...and have no reason too! There is a great deal of logic and extensive research put into this thread...and I view it as one of the finest put out. We are ALL still learning to get it right! Keep it comin'


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## StarSapphire22

I am loving this thread. Lots of very interesting (and useful!) information being put out there! Please keep it up!


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## Testudoresearch

Team Gomberg said:


> You don't like the closed chambers and hot and humid method because you state the 80%-99% of constant RH is unnatural. You do think they benefit from the hydration offered by at least 40% RH.
> The intense basking spots are a main contributor to drying out the carapace. The keratin thickens and pulls leading to the extreme pyramiding in captivity. Heat should be provided in zones over a greater area than the single localized spot.



I really have to be brief in any replies this week as I have a chapter in a veterinary and animal welfare text to proof and deliver by Dec 22.... also other commitments. 

For _indoor maintenance _ I recommend aiming for ambient RH in the 50-60% range for most semi-arid habitat species (Testudo and relevant Geochelone - elegans, pardalis, radiata, sulcata, etc). This provides a 'safety net'. 40% is on the low side. Lower than I would recommend. 50-60% has also proven consistently safe and effective over a long period. Not only in terms of keratin hydration status, but for the prevention of general bodily dehydration. 

I highly recommend using a suitable substrate of adequate depth. This is also extremely important as it permits natural burying behavior. This also plays a major role in the prevention of generalized dehydration and consequent bladder stone formation, renal problems. I have been going on about this for years. I gave a presentation on the subject back in the early 90's at symposium in California one time. I have used this method with all my CB animals for for a _very _long time. A more detailed summary is available online, here. 

Many people use mister-sprayers. To maximize effectiveness do this last thing at night. After radiant heat sources have been off a while, and things have cooled right down. You do not have to saturate anything. Just a light mist. This most accurately replicates the early morning dew formation typical in many semi-arid/desert habitats. I think it also helps to rehydrate the keratin somewhat. In nature, this burns off rapidly just after sunrise. I did observe T. kleinmanni sipping at this dew by 'brushing' their noses against it some years back in Egypt.. also geckos doing the same thing.

I highly recommend fresh drinking water be available at all times in captivity. This is more than they (speaking of T. graeca here) get in the wild, however. We may get our last rain in May, then nothing until a thunderstorm in mid-August... and nothing more again until mid-September. Interesting side-note on natural history... if you get an overnight thunderstorm with rain in August, estivating tortoises emerge in large numbers to drink, and simultaneously 'flush' urates. *Even at night - in the pitch dark. * Yes, this is true nocturnal activity in Testudo. We have recorded this multiple times. We reported on it a couple of years ago. The first ever confirmed reports of this behaviour in this species in the wild as far as I am aware.

Highly concentrated, narrow beam basking sources are without a doubt in my mind _seriously _problematic from several perspectives. We do face the practical difficulty than an 'ideal' alternative is not yet readily available. So we are looking at a compromise in indoor settings. If using lamps do not use them at too close a range and use the widest beam spread possible. Investigate alternatives such as 'dark' IR sources - large area panel radiators, for example. I am actually running some tests on those at the moment. They have some promise. They do need to be used in combination with a separate UVB source, of course. The idea is to avoid localized surface over-heating (and drying) with poor deep tissue penetration. What we really _need _is a directional, but very wide area source, with a good IR spectrum... ideally with water-filtered IR-A... but this just does not exist yet in any accessible form. Bottom line: we do not have a fully satisfactory solution yet. A lot of work has been done on artificial UVB, but this problematic IR issue has been pretty much ignored. That needs to change. 

What you _must _avoid is this situation. 100w basking lamp humidity RH effect... down to 14.8% in this instance. 






(that tiny peak you see there at exactly 11.00 am is surface evaporation seconds after the lamp is turned on... water molecules being driven off and out of your tortoise... then the levels drop through the floor and stay there until turned off)

and this... 






instead... this is what we _should _see (wild tortoise thermography research)






Incidentally... regarding feeding... this is a typical activity cycle of 'our' local Testudo graeca graeca.

January: Rare activity
February: Usually hibernating
March: Usually emerge mid-late March
April: Peak activity
May: Peak activity
June: Much less activity, possibly none
July: None
August: None (except in thunderstorm for very brief period)
September: Usually come out of estivation mid-September with thunderstorms, nests hatch.
October: Moderate activity
November: Moderate activity
December: Possibly some activity

Forced 365 day activity and feeding is also a huge problem with many species.


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## gtc

Thank you Testudoresearch for sharing your knowledge. I have a greek tortoise, I live in northen Europe (cold climate), my tort lives mostly indoors and I am afraid I am doing everything you warn against:

1. 160W mvb with a basking temp of 100F on everyday
2. Feeding everyday
3. No off days regarding lights 

I really hope you can give me some advice on the following:

1. Should I replace my mvb with a UVB tube + CHE (or heatmat)? Or is is enough to move the mvb higher up, reduce the basking temp to maybe 90-95C and keep if off some days?
2. How many days a week should I keep my mvb off? Once - twice a week?
3. How about feeding? Fresh greens maybe every other day?


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## Testudoresearch

gtc said:


> Thank you Testudoresearch for sharing your knowledge. I have a greek tortoise, I live in northen Europe (cold climate), my tort lives mostly indoors and I am afraid I am doing everything you warn against



I it _is _difficult that far north, but it _can_ be done. There is some very good info on my friend Per-Anders Swedish Website. 

He uses the 'days off' feeding/activity system, and employs a very good diet based on Agrob Pre/Pro Alpin. He captive breeds and his tortoises are really nice. There are also some keepers in Denmark using similar methods. Otto not only has done a lot of field research himself (specializing in Testudo marginata), but also has good examples and advice that is relevant for keepers in Northern Europe. His website is marginata.dk  . There is good advice and housing ideas there... as with all of us, we are still learning more all the time, so I think maybe some of the lamp positions used there might be different now...

1. We are running some tests now and should have more data soon.

2. I give three days a week with 'off time' on average.

3. If using an diet indoors, Agrob Pre/Pro Alpin is really excellent as a base. High fibre, low protein, works very well. I do not know of a direct equivalent in the US, unfortunately. Available within the EU only, I believe.


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## gtc

Testudoresearch said:


> gtc said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you Testudoresearch for sharing your knowledge. I have a greek tortoise, I live in northen Europe (cold climate), my tort lives mostly indoors and I am afraid I am doing everything you warn against
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I it _is _difficult that far north, but it _can_ be done. There is some very good info on my friend Per-Anders Swedish Website.
> 
> He uses the 'days off' feeding/activity system, and employs a very good diet based on Agrob Pre/Pro Alpin. He captive breeds and his tortoises are really nice. There are also some keepers in Denmark using similar methods. Otto not only has done a lot of field research himself (specializing in Testudo marginata), but also has good examples and advice that is relevant for keepers in Northern Europe. His website is marginata.dk  . There is good advice and housing ideas there... as with all of us, we are still learning more all the time, so I think maybe some of the lamp positions used there might be different now...
> 
> 1. We are running some tests now and should have more data soon.
> 
> 2. I give three days a week with 'off time' on average.
> 
> 3. If using an diet indoors, Agrob Pre/Pro Alpin is really excellent as a base. High fibre, low protein, works very well. I do not know of a direct equivalent in the US, unfortunately. Available within the EU only, I believe.
Click to expand...


Thank you for the great info, I'll check those websites. I use Pro alpin. When you say "off time", do you mean both lights and food, only food or only lights?

Thanks again


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## gtc

I read through Per-Anders Swedish Website and marginata.dk, they are both great and I recommend them to anyone with Testudo species. I am making some changes to how take care of my greek due to those sites. 

On another note, there has been talk about basking spot vs basking zone and that a basking zone is recommended. Wouldnt that mean that a powerful mvb would be better than a small basking bulb with a uvb tube (the exact opposite of what some recommend)? My thinking is that a small basking bulb creates a concentrated hot spot while a big mvb creates a bigger basking zone.....am I way off here?


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## Testudoresearch

gtc said:


> On another note, there has been talk about basking spot vs basking zone and that a basking zone is recommended. Wouldnt that mean that a powerful mvb would be better than a small basking bulb with a uvb tube (the exact opposite of what some recommend)? My thinking is that a small basking bulb creates a concentrated hot spot while a big mvb creates a bigger basking zone.....am I way off here?



No. You are basically correct.

There is a direct relationship between the size of the 'target' animal, and the proportion of coverage achieved by the surface area and 'beam width' of the lamp. Multiple factors affect the precise heating pattern obtained from lamps, and also the time scale involved in distributing the heat from the lamp throughout the tortoise's body. These include:
a) The size and mass of the animal
b) The power and physical size of the basking source
c) The beam distribution (e.g. spot vs. flood)
d) The background (ambient) temperature
e) The distance from the heat source to the animal

So, there are several variables.

In short, a small lamp positioned close to the tortoise will produce a more concentrated effect that a large, wide-beam lamp positioned at a greater distance. What matters very much is the relative size and power of the lamp to the animal. A 5 cm juvenile will respond quite differently from a 30 cm adult under an identical lamp. The larger the tortoise, the more extreme the effect is.

Use at close range greatly exaggerates extreme local heating effects, and causes very severe drying and dehydration problems. Larger sized lamps with a broad beam used further away are in this respect preferable to small, lower powered lamps at close quarters. The risk of thermal damage to sensitive tissues is also greatly reduced by this approach.

To address your previous question, yes, we would not feed on those 'off' or 'quiet' days. The idea is to give a break from the unnatural 365-day constant feeding activity patterns so often seen in captive animals. By giving 'rest' periods, this is not only much closer to natural behavior, but has very critical implications for gut function and digestion. This is another area 90% of "hobby" tortoise keepers seriously underestimate or ignore altogether.


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## Team Gomberg

> The idea is to give a break from the unnatural 365-day constant feeding activity patterns so often seen in captive animals. By giving 'rest' periods, this is not only much closer to natural behavior, but has very critical implications for gut function and digestion.





> January: Rare activity
> February: Usually hibernating
> March: Usually emerge mid-late March
> April: Peak activity
> May: Peak activity
> June: Much less activity, possibly none
> July: None
> August: None (except in thunderstorm for very brief period)
> September: Usually come out of estivation mid-September with thunderstorms, nests hatch.
> October: Moderate activity
> November: Moderate activity
> December: Possibly some activity
> 
> Forced 365 day activity and feeding is also a huge problem with many species.



Please don't read this with sarcasm. I'm genuinely asking...

You show these guys as being active for a few months here and then not active for a few months there. So, how is a few days a week 'rest' closer to natural behavior? Wouldn't a few months at time 'rest' be more accurate to say it's closer to natural behavior?

My Leopards are active all year and the Russian(s) outdoors brumate and aestivate on their own. At this time I don't plan to stop daily feeding but I'm trying to understand your perspective better.


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## Testudoresearch

Team Gomberg said:


> Please don't read this with sarcasm. I'm genuinely asking...
> 
> You show these guys as being active for a few months here and then not active for a few months there. So, how is a few days a week 'rest' closer to natural behavior? Wouldn't a few months at time 'rest' be more accurate to say it's closer to natural behavior?
> 
> My Leopards are active all year and the Russian(s) outdoors brumate and aestivate on their own. At this time I don't plan to stop daily feeding but I'm trying to understand your perspective better.



You are quite correct in that an ideal situation is to provide naturally regulated inactivity cycles through estivation and hibernation/brumation. Certainly if you are in a climatic zone that permits this, then this is by far the best solution. It is precisely what I am able to do here, for example. However... for many years I did live in a climatic zone (cold, wet Northern Europe) where achieving estivation in particular is very difficult indeed - the temperatures just do not reach sufficient levels. It is also a problem for anyone keeping indoors for a significant period. Estivation requires quite a specific set of environmental conditions. So, while it is acknowledged that this is "the best" solution, it may be impractical for many people simply because they live in a climate zone where achieving those conditions is difficult or impossible. 

I have always said that the closer you live to the natural bioclimatic zone of the species kept, the easier things get from the maintenance perspective. This is very true, as those of us who have struggled with very different conditions know, whether keeping tropical forest species in a desert, or arid habitat species in a wet, humid climate know to their cost. This results in major obstacles, which are difficult and costly to overcome, and even then, the results may leave much to be desired.

If the keeper is in a location where natural conditions cannot be exploited to produce a more representative activity cycle, then some artificial means are required to reduce over-feeding and consequently artificially accelerated growth.

In your situation, you probably do not need to adopt that approach. This greatly depends on your local climate, however, and is a good example of how "one size fits all" husbandry advice can be quite misleading. It is always necessary to take into account the area where the animals are being kept. Even within the US, conditions vary hugely. How humidity management is approached will be different for a keeper in say, Georgia, than it is for a keeper in Arizona or Nevada.


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## ALDABRAMAN

nearpass said:


> *'over feeding' and too rapid growth contribute to excessive pyramiding in captive tortoises. By over feeding, I mean that in captivity our animals have to work very little for foods that may well be much more nutrient dense than what they would ever scrounge for much of the time in the wild. I suspect many captive raise animals have accelerated growth compared to wild roaming ones, and much less exercise is involved in their finding food. // but might it not play a part?*



** I agree with this based on our experience and observations!*


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## Testudoresearch

There are quite a number of papers where wild vs. captive growth has been plotted, involving several species. Like all papers, they are of varying quality, but one thing is very consistent across all of them (to the best of my knowledge - I can only refer with confidence to those I have read), and that is that for the reasons Nearpass highlights very succinctly, captive growth rates are typically substantially greater. 

This has inevitable consequences for health and development. The incidence of Metabolic Bone Disease in high-growth rate animals in captivity is incredibly high, even when directly compared to animals on similar regimes but lower energy inputs, and consequently slower-grown.

To put this in simple terms, if you grow an animal at an accelerated rate, you are "pushing the envelope" in terms of meeting skeletal needs for minerals, hormones and other essential components such as D3 that are critical to constructing a healthy bone structure. If just one of these is not adequate, or the balance is wrong, then the resulting bones will be defective: too weak, too flexible, suffering from lesions, etc. The margin for error is really very small.


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## edwardbo

aldabraman,please explain, what did you see ,


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## Elohi

Testudoresearch said:


> This has inevitable consequences for health and development. The incidence of Metabolic Bone Disease in high-growth rate animals in captivity is incredibly high, even when directly compared to animals on similar regimes but lower energy inputs, and consequently slower-grown.



This reminds me of the studies in human teens regarding high milk consumption as teens, rapid growth rate, and hip injuries breaks/replacements later in life. Rapid growth does indeed have it's consequences. To what degree in tortoises, I have yet to learn. I love this thread.


And in those human studies, lower milk consumption led to slower growth, less height, and far fewer hip injuries and breaks/replacements later in life. Go figure.


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## edwardbo

team goldberg,i think its more about what is going on in the gut ,like brewing beer, it has to ferment, or ageing wine. dont cows do something simular ,they eat , then they chew thier cud ,.....fat people are hungry because they are in need of nutrient,thier intestines are so packed that they dont absorb certain things.........TESTUDO how about making a trans keritin patch to put on torts shell like ladys put under thier eyes .?...i think the same type of problems we see in torts happens with dogs hips and elbows, thier system is not desighned to have such fortified food.


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## Testudoresearch

Elohi said:


> This reminds me of the studies in human teens regarding high milk consumption as teens, rapid growth rate, and hip injuries breaks/replacements later in life. Rapid growth does indeed have it's consequences. To what degree in tortoises, I have yet to learn. I love this thread.
> 
> 
> And in those human studies, lower milk consumption led to slower growth, less height, and far fewer hip injuries and breaks/replacements later in life. Go figure.





I agree with you and am convinced beyond doubt that the comparison is a valid one. You only have to read the veterinary journals to see case-after-case linking excess growth to subsequent orthopedic problems. Cats, dogs, horses, reptiles... everything. I mentioned above that there are studies comparing wild to captive growth, this is just an example (one of many) but the results are pretty typical.


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## julietteq

Does anybody maybe have a linegraph that shows the growthrate of leo's in the wild? That way we can make sure we stay on the line with our captive loved ones.


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## Sulcata_Sandy

ALDABRAMAN said:


> nearpass said:
> 
> 
> 
> *'over feeding' and too rapid growth contribute to excessive pyramiding in captive tortoises. By over feeding, I mean that in captivity our animals have to work very little for foods that may well be much more nutrient dense than what they would ever scrounge for much of the time in the wild. I suspect many captive raise animals have accelerated growth compared to wild roaming ones, and much less exercise is involved in their finding food. // but might it not play a part?*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ** I agree with this based on our experience and observations!*
Click to expand...


This is 100% true in mammals as well, and contributes to growth abnormalities and later joint and cardiac disease in adulthood. A rolly-polly fat puppy is NOT healthy. It's being over fed. Same is true for all growing bone and soft tissue...less is indeed more. Unless you have extensive experience in judging what an overweight Chelonian looks like, it's very difficult to judge true body mass. Slow, controlled, steady growth is key to a healthy adult and later geriatric animal, regardless of taxonomic rank.


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## Elohi

Sulcata_Sandy said:


> This is 100% true in mammals as well, and contributes to growth abnormalities and later joint and cardiac disease in adulthood. A rolly-polly fat puppy is NOT healthy. It's being over fed. Same is true for all growing bone and soft tissue...less is indeed more. Unless you have extensive experience in judging what an overweight Chelonian looks like, it's very difficult to judge true body mass. Slow, controlled, steady growth is key to a healthy adult and later geriatric animal, regardless of taxonomic rank.



This is an area where I have a lot of interest. (Human nutrition) 
Not quite on topic (bear with me it comes back to topic) the rolly polly puppy example reminds me of how us humans think that a baby covered in fat rolls is a heathy baby. That they need this fat reserve should they become ill. So here's the thing. Fat rolls aren't a sign of health in a human of any age, why on earth do we reserve this strange way of thinking towards infants. An infant should have a healthy body fat just like a juvenile or an adult. Feeding them full of man made formula has caused infant growth rates to increase dramatically and GI illnesses and systemic diseases to skyrocket. How many babies have reflux? How many babies have allergies?? Abnormal numbers of them because of their diet. Corn syrup solids, soy proteins, and bovine lactose is not human infant food. Human breast milk is. And that mothers milk should be clear of the same ingredients that cause so many problems and increased growth rates in formula fed babies. That is why there is a separate growth rate chart for breastfed babies...they DO NOT grow as fast as their formula fed counterparts. 

I'm not sure how we can provide the right balance for our captive tortoises to keep their growth rate more natural but I'd sure like some insight. I have leopards and as some of you know I've inquired about a more natural diet in another thread. I'd also be interested in a feeding schedule that would yield the best results.


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## nearpass

Very few of us, I believe, have a real comprehension of the nature of the environments many tortoises come from, and the reasons for their adaptations. Poor tortoise, we think, surely I can provide much better for him...optimal conditions and diet, as it were, based on what WE think that should be. How can hibernation, and estivation, and dried up weeds be the best, when we can do so much more for them? Wouldn't it be fine if we give them that optimal life, if we can meet all their needs, or better yet, provide then with even better?

Problem is, we know next to nothing about much of this, and are making many assumptions, much as we've done with other animals, not for the good, in the long run, of any of us. Tortoises have survived quite nicely for millions of years living a pretty grueling existence by our standards, til we came along and messed things up for many of them, particularly those 'desolate' environments so many of them can live in. Just because we CAN provide them with more, I don't think we should be going that route. I think we should be focusing much more on adjusting our 'keeping methodologies' rather than trying to adjust the tortoises to what we find comfortable, or convenient or pleasing to our environments and 'sensibilities.'.

I applaud many of the European keepers and breeders whose web sites I have visited. They put major emphasis on having an adequate outdoor enclosure, with descriptions of how to accomplish that, and on hibernation for at least a couple of months, at least for testudo species I have seen. Many refuse to sell hatchlings unless these requirements can be met. I'm sure this is not a perfect solution by any stretch, and not universal, but it is an attempt.


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## Yvonne G

I have a male sulcata that came to me when he was about 35lbs. He had some pyramiding, but just little points in the middle of each scute...not bad, but not smooth. He lives outside. Always has, ever since I got him. He has a heated house for winter. 

I don't feed this tortoise. He has to make do with whatever he finds growing in his pen. During the summer, that would be plenty of bermuda grass and weeds. In the winter, the grass is dormant and brown, and if there is no rain, no weeds. So for about five months out of the year, my 110lb sulcata subsists on brown grass.

I've had him now for about 20 years. He looks and acts perfectly healthy. Only time will tell if this on-again, off-again diet has done him any long run harm.


----------



## julietteq

I don't feed this tortoise. He has to make do with whatever he finds growing in his pen. During the summer, that would be plenty of bermuda grass and weeds. In the winter, the grass is dormant and brown, and if there is no rain, no weeds. So for about five months out of the year, my 110lb sulcata subsists on brown grass.


[/quote]

That is so interesting. I would love to provide an environment like that for my leo's. How big is the pen and do you maybe have pictures of it so I can see what it looks like?


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## nearpass

Yvonne G said:


> I have a male sulcata that came to me when he was about 35lbs. He had some pyramiding, but just little points in the middle of each scute...not bad, but not smooth. He lives outside. Always has, ever since I got him. He has a heated house for winter.
> 
> I don't feed this tortoise. He has to make do with whatever he finds growing in his pen. During the summer, that would be plenty of bermuda grass and weeds. In the winter, the grass is dormant and brown, and if there is no rain, no weeds. So for about five months out of the year, my 110lb sulcata subsists on brown grass.
> 
> I've had him now for about 20 years. He looks and acts perfectly healthy. Only time will tell if this on-again, off-again diet has done him any long run harm.



I would be willing to bet he's as healthy as any captive raised sulcata could ever be...bet he's in excellent shape


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## ulkal

I agree with you and when the day comes on which I can translate my hopefully by then acquired real comprehension of natural environments of my tortoises into my living room/ garden, I promise I will. Of course this would be the best for the tortoises, because this is how they survived for millions of years as you pointed out. It would spare us the trial and error of "tinkering" to get them healthy in capitivity.

As of now, I doubt any of us can emulate those natural environments thousands of kilometers away to the detail (like setting miniwildfires in the garden, mimicking drought- how you know its time for a drought?). I do not say we should not try or at least take what we know and apply it the best way we can- according to our circumstances. (Right now I am blasting 250â‚¬ worth of lighting and heating equipment behind me to do so) There are still some chelonian secrets to uncover. I am thankful to people like Testudoresearch, who tirelessly try to do so (Thanks again for sharing your experience, I learned a lot in this thread. Glad, you are a member here). This goes also for people like Tom, who equally tirelessly try to find husbandry techniques that fit the situation (sorry for sloppy phrasing- and likewise!) 
Maybe it really comes down to preference?


I commend those breeders, too. Its just so funny how according to those ads, Testudos could never ever live without outdoor time, but others like leopards easily could.
__________________________________________________________
I am aware that I accounted with extreme situations when talking about creating natural environments. I hope you still get what I mean.



nearpass said:


> Very few of us, I believe, have a real comprehension of the nature of the environments many tortoises come from, and the reasons for their adaptations. Poor tortoise, we think, surely I can provide much better for him...optimal conditions and diet, as it were, based on what WE think that should be. How can hibernation, and estivation, and dried up weeds be the best, when we can do so much more for them? Wouldn't it be fine if we give them that optimal life, if we can meet all their needs, or better yet, provide then with even better?
> 
> Problem is, we know next to nothing about much of this, and are making many assumptions, much as we've done with other animals, not for the good, in the long run, of any of us. Tortoises have survived quite nicely for millions of years living a pretty grueling existence by our standards, til we came along and messed things up for many of them, particularly those 'desolate' environments so many of them can live in. Just because we CAN provide them with more, I don't think we should be going that route. I think we should be focusing much more on adjusting our 'keeping methodologies' rather than trying to adjust the tortoises to what we find comfortable, or convenient or pleasing to our environments and 'sensibilities.'.
> 
> I applaud many of the European keepers and breeders whose web sites I have visited. They put major emphasis on having an adequate outdoor enclosure, with descriptions of how to accomplish that, and on hibernation for at least a couple of months, at least for testudo species I have seen. Many refuse to sell hatchlings unless these requirements can be met. I'm sure this is not a perfect solution by any stretch, and not universal, but it is an attempt.


----------



## nearpass

ulkal said:


> I agree with you and when the day comes on which I can translate my hopefully by then acquired real comprehension of natural environments of my tortoises into my living room/ garden, I promise I will. Of course this would be the best for the tortoises, because this is how they survived for millions of years as you pointed out. It would spare us the trial and error of "tinkering" to get them healthy in capitivity.
> 
> As of now, I doubt any of us can emulate those natural environments thousands of kilometers away to the detail (like setting miniwildfires in the garden, mimicking drought- how you know its time for a drought?). I do not say we should not try or at least take what we know and apply it the best way we can- according to our circumstances. (Right now I am blasting 250â‚¬ worth of lighting and heating equipment behind me to do so) There are still some chelonian secrets to uncover. I am thankful to people like Testudoresearch, who tirelessly try to do so (Thanks again for sharing your experience, I learned a lot in this thread. Glad, you are a member here). This goes also for people like Tom, who equally tirelessly try to find husbandry techniques that fit the situation (sorry for sloppy phrasing- and likewise!)
> Maybe it really comes down to preference?
> 
> 
> I commend those breeders, too. Its just so funny how according to those ads, Testudos could never ever live without outdoor time, but others like leopards easily could.
> __________________________________________________________
> I am aware that I accounted with extreme situations when talking about creating natural environments. I hope you still get what I mean.



I certainly do understand, and agree 100%. I struggle with this issue a great deal, because I know, where I live, I can only make a meager attempt with my hermanni. But, I have discovered it's much easier to 'be nice' to them, than to 'be mean'...by 'mean' I am trying to say, doing things like feeding less often, and days with no light. I'm going to be instituting that from now on, a small attempt at some adjustment. Years ago, when my torts were just in a box in the living room under a window, with only an incandescent bulb, they would slow themselves down in the fall, burrow into corners, and become inactive as we kept our room temperatures on the cool side and heated with wood. I kind of ignored them, turned the light on daily, but fed them maybe once a week. They did quite nicely, and went outside all spring and summer. Then the internet came along, and I read more, and began to feel guilty  Now I'm rethinking, and 'stepping backward.' Not a total answer, as you say, but maybe a small step.


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## FLINTUS

Ignoring diet, space etc. and just looking at meteorology. 
While we can't follow the weather-wild fires, short low pressure systems etc. anything contributing to the environment over a short space of time- we can follow the climate, and as a result the seasons. We can at least control temps and humidity for different seasons-divide the year into 4 to make it more simple- with relative ease. We can understand the standard, average weather that you would get in the wild by looking at climatic nature of an area.


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## OCTortoiseGuy

FLINTUS said:


> Ignoring diet, space etc. and just looking at meteorology.
> While we can't follow the weather-wild fires, short low pressure systems etc. anything contributing to the environment over a short space of time- we can follow the climate, and as a result the seasons. We can at least control temps and humidity for different seasons-divide the year into 4 to make it more simple- with relative ease. We can understand the standard, average weather that you would get in the wild by looking at climatic nature of an area.



This is a very interesting topic. In the reef aquarium hobby they have controllers that will mimic the weather of the area your reef fish and corals come from. Your light will come on and off at the same day and night cycles, will mimic thunderstorms when they happen, adjust the temperature of the water as it goes up and down in the wild and even accelerate the motion of the water in your tank. Using the controller with Led lights, heaters and pumps make it very easy to mimic the weather from the natural habitat of your animals.

What if there was a controller made for the reptile hobby that could control Humidity, light, temperature mimic thunder storms?


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## Testudoresearch

OCTortoiseGuy said:


> What if there was a controller made for the reptile hobby that could control Humidity, light, temperature mimic thunder storms?



You know, I am sure it could be done. I think you'd need more than just a controller, however. From working with all kinds of scale set-ups, generally speaking, the larger the installation the easier it gets. Very small setups are very difficult, as you go up in size, it definitely gets easier. Tropical butterfly houses are a good example of where this kind of approach has already been used. Getting a decent environment (for a tortoise) in a fish-tank is practically impossible - but in a very large greenhouse or plastic tunnel system, it is far easier to achieve. Of course, the costs of doing so, and the sheer space required, are prohibitive for most keepers.


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## FLINTUS

OCTortoiseGuy said:


> FLINTUS said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ignoring diet, space etc. and just looking at meteorology.
> While we can't follow the weather-wild fires, short low pressure systems etc. anything contributing to the environment over a short space of time- we can follow the climate, and as a result the seasons. We can at least control temps and humidity for different seasons-divide the year into 4 to make it more simple- with relative ease. We can understand the standard, average weather that you would get in the wild by looking at climatic nature of an area.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is a very interesting topic. In the reef aquarium hobby they have controllers that will mimic the weather of the area your reef fish and corals come from. Your light will come on and off at the same day and night cycles, will mimic thunderstorms when they happen, adjust the temperature of the water as it goes up and down in the wild and even accelerate the motion of the water in your tank. Using the controller with Led lights, heaters and pumps make it very easy to mimic the weather from the natural habitat of your animals.
> 
> What if there was a controller made for the reptile hobby that could control Humidity, light, temperature mimic thunder storms?
Click to expand...

Ah now that's a bit different. I was saying things like reducing the temps for a new season, and making it more humid for the rainy season. 
Arcadia-reptile lighting company- have been working on some plans for the above-not up to date with weather but from the average for the years-you set the date and the month and time etc. when starting. Not any thunderstorm stuff, but stuff like late afternoon rainfall due to cumulonimbus clouds, changes in humidity using misters, changes in temps using heaters, overcast days. They reckon to do it as one, combined piece it would cost around Â£600($900).


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## Testudoresearch

Yvonne G said:


> I don't feed this tortoise. He has to make do with whatever he finds growing in his pen. During the summer, that would be plenty of bermuda grass and weeds. In the winter, the grass is dormant and brown, and if there is no rain, no weeds. So for about five months out of the year, my 110lb sulcata subsists on brown grass.
> 
> I've had him now for about 20 years. He looks and acts perfectly healthy. Only time will tell if this on-again, off-again diet has done him any long run harm.



I think you have done the _opposite _of harm. The "harm" tends to be done by those who "kill with kindness". You are providing a much closer cycle to that which these tortoises are 'designed for' than average keepers. My guess is also that this is now one healthy tortoises. You have got it right. 

This may be of some interest. These are some photos taken over several months in our own Testudo pens... we follow the same general approach. I don't even see _some _of them for weeks, or months on end...

First emergence from hibernation, 27 Feb 2012:







Another up very next day:






Hibernation burrow (usually around 10cm/4" deep)






Vegetation in pen area, February






More vegetation in the pens











Mating! 23 March






Same pens... vegetation by August (no tortoises, all estivating, ground surface temperatures very high, no rain since May)











Short emergence following mid-August overnight thunderstorm. Then back down again by 11.00 am the same morning. Tortoises observed drinking and passing urates. Also munching on dry vegetation.






First rain of early September... first hatchings begin to emerge 2nd week of the month (natural incubation, in the ground). This one is a 2nd generation Libyan.






That is a very typical year here in terms of activity and vegetation cycle. They are pretty much left alone... and take care of themselves.

Obviously, this is not possible in all climates.


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## Tom

Testudoresearch said:


> I think you have done the _opposite _of harm. The "harm" tends to be done by those who "kill with kindness".



Oh yes. My dozens of tortoises are all dying because I'm smothering them with all my "kindness" by letting them have a drink of water and feeding them some weeds and grass every day...





Testudoresearch said:


> This may be of some interest. These are some photos taken over several months in our own Testudo pens... we follow the same general approach. I don't even see _some _of them for weeks, or months on end...



"Neglect" is not a good husbandry strategy in my opinion.


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## nearpass

Tom said:


> Oh yes. My dozens of tortoises are all dying because I'm smothering them with all my "kindness" by letting them have a drink of water and feeding them some weeds and grass every day...
> 
> "Neglect" is not a good husbandry strategy in my opinion.



Tom, with all due respect, sarcasm really isn't necessary; would you please read and try to understand what people here are trying to say. NO ONE here is talking about neglect.


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## lilacdragon

Those pictures paint a thousand words.

Nearpass wrote:


> Very few of us, I believe, have a real comprehension of the nature of the environments many tortoises come from, and the reasons for their adaptations. Poor tortoise, we think, surely I can provide much better for him...optimal conditions and diet, as it were, based on what WE think that should be. How can hibernation, and estivation, and dried up weeds be the best, when we can do so much more for them? Wouldn't it be fine if we give them that optimal life, if we can meet all their needs, or better yet, provide then with even better?



This is so true! I still feel absurdly guilty about not giving my chuckwallas food, when they are still coming out to bask for a few hours, as they often do, during their mid-winter fast...They look at me and I wonder if I'm being cruel.. yet I know that really, offering them food now would be the cruel thing to do.

It seems to me, from reading this thread and another rather similar one, that one of the major reasons that pyramiding doesn't often occur in the wild - in Mediterranean tortoises, at least - might be because in the microhabitat their bodies are best equipped for, their average growth rate is very slow. They don't grow when conditions aren't optimal, am I right?

In spring, when food is in good supply, they can grow fast; but at that time - and only at that time - the solar radiation is suitable for full morning basking; its warmth and short-wavelength infrared stimulates healthy bone and scute growth, its UVB ensures vitamin D3 levels are optimal too... and the humidity levels are possibly higher under green vegetation and maybe dawn dews also moisten the scutes occasionally, so contributing to softer keratin and healthy shell growth. 
But as soon as things are less optimal, either because it's too hot, or too dry, or winter is approaching... the very first thing that happens, in the wild, is that the food supply dries up or dies off. So they stop eating, and stop growing. 
Could this be protecting them from deformity?

Frances


----------



## nearpass

lilacdragon said:


> Those pictures paint a thousand words.
> 
> Nearpass wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> Very few of us, I believe, have a real comprehension of the nature of the environments many tortoises come from, and the reasons for their adaptations. Poor tortoise, we think, surely I can provide much better for him...optimal conditions and diet, as it were, based on what WE think that should be. How can hibernation, and estivation, and dried up weeds be the best, when we can do so much more for them? Wouldn't it be fine if we give them that optimal life, if we can meet all their needs, or better yet, provide then with even better?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is so true! I still feel absurdly guilty about not giving my chuckwallas food, when they are still coming out to bask for a few hours, as they often do, during their mid-winter fast...They look at me and I wonder if I'm being cruel.. yet I know that really, offering them food now would be the cruel thing to do.
> 
> It seems to me, from reading this thread and another rather similar one, that one of the major reasons that pyramiding doesn't often occur in the wild - in Mediterranean tortoises, at least - might be because in the microhabitat their bodies are best equipped for, their average growth rate is very slow. They don't grow when conditions aren't optimal, am I right?
> 
> In spring, when food is in good supply, they can grow fast; but at that time - and only at that time - the solar radiation is suitable for full morning basking; its warmth and short-wavelength infrared stimulates healthy bone and scute growth, its UVB ensures vitamin D3 levels are optimal too... and the humidity levels are possibly higher under green vegetation and maybe dawn dews also moisten the scutes occasionally, so contributing to softer keratin and healthy shell growth.
> But as soon as things are less optimal, either because it's too hot, or too dry, or winter is approaching... the very first thing that happens, in the wild, is that the food supply dries up or dies off. So they stop eating, and stop growing.
> Could this be protecting them from deformity?
> 
> Frances
Click to expand...


From my perspective that sounds very right  I think that testudo hatchlings, too, hatching in late summer, probably do limited immediate eating and growing, before beginning brumation.


----------



## Testudoresearch

One of the things that I have not personally been involved in (but a friend of mine here, Marcos, has) is in _identifying_ the species of plants consumed by tortoises. It really encompasses a remarkably wide range, depending on habitat, from around 70 to 120+ different species throughout the season. In some cases leaves are consumed, in other cases flowers, seed heads and stalks. All parts of some plants are eaten, only specific parts of others. The soil the plants grow in is INCREDIBLY high in natural calcium. Also, UVB levels are ideal - consequently no supplementation or artificial lighting is required. This is quite different from some localities where I kept tortoises. There, supplementation was essential. It was also a struggle to supply even a small proportion of the variety of plants eaten by tortoises within the natural habitat. You can see the range of plants that grow in these pens in Spring (Feb to early May is when fresh vegetation cover peaks).


























We have around 10,000 square meters which is fully fenced and secured against predators, permitting the tortoises a near-natural life cycle.

This is one particularly important plant to tortoises in this area, and in parts of North Africa. Esparto grass (Macrochloa tenacissima). This is used as a hide and popular overnight scrape.






You will also find tortoises using dead, dry vegetation in a similar manner.






Analysis of fecal pellets is a useful tool. You can see here just how incredibly fibrous it really is....compare with output from most captive 'pet' examples. There is an enormous difference. 











One very interesting fact is that very, very little (if any) weight loss occurs during either brumation or estivation. You might _expect _tortoises to be dehydrated after, say, three months underground with surface temperatures just a few inches above them like this...






51.2 Celsius or 124.16F.

But... they are not in the least. They remain very well hydrated and losses are near imperceptible. A testament to their excellent 'design' and total suitability to be right 'at home' in this kind of environment. 

Over-feeding with _highly digestible_ foods that lack long fibers on the kind of scale seen above are major problem areas when using artificial diets. Dietary fiber content achieved in these pens is 35-40%. Many captive diets are 12% or less, and even the best of them rarely exceeds 20%. Even then, fiber length is much shorter (due to production methods). More energy is extracted from these chopped, short fibers, prompting more rapid growth... with the consequent problems that brings. Energy release from very long fibers is much slower and more restricted. Another example of "more is not always better".


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## mikeh

*Re: RE: What is the physiology behind pyramiding?*



Tom said:


> Testudoresearch said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think you have done the _opposite _of harm. The "harm" tends to be done by those who "kill with kindness".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh yes. My dozens of tortoises are all dying because I'm smothering them with all my "kindness" by letting them have a drink of water and feeding them some weeds and grass every day...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Testudoresearch said:
> 
> 
> 
> This may be of some interest. These are some photos taken over several months in our own Testudo pens... we follow the same general approach. I don't even see _some _of them for weeks, or months on end...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> "Neglect" is not a good husbandry strategy in my opinion.
Click to expand...


This natures "neglect" produces animals that are perfect. 
Our "kindness" struggles to produce animals rival those in nature.

One can say but my animals are all robust, smooth, eating machines, growing faster, bigger, etc, but weather the "kindness" truly rivals natures "neglect" could be truly only considered after some adequate time tortoise has lived under these "kind" conditions, 50-60-70-80 years and is still thriving. There may be some zoos that have few animals that long, but were they raised kindly from hatchlings? If so, that perhaps may prove the case.
Tortoise making it to lets say 20years is equal to human making it to 20 years, not showing for much.


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## nearpass

Testudoresearch said:


> Over-feeding with _highly digestible_ foods that lack long fibers on the kind of scale seen above are major problem areas when using artificial diets. Dietary fiber content achieved in these pens is 35-40%. Many captive diets are 12% or less, and even the best of them rarely exceeds 20%. Even then, fiber length is much shorter (due to production methods). More energy is extracted from these chopped, short fibers, prompting more rapid growth... with the consequent problems that brings. Energy release from very long fibers is much slower and more restricted. Another example of "more is not always better".



This is a problem here in the US. I contacted Agrops in Germany about importing Pre Alpin or their other diets to the US. We had a nice email exchange several years ago, and they were kind enough to send me samples. They indicated they were, at that time, looking for an importer, but since the US market is so limited, they doubted it could be done, and as far as I can tell, it has not happened. Sooooo...any suggestions for us here?


----------



## Testudoresearch

lilacdragon said:


> It seems to me, from reading this thread and another rather similar one, that one of the major reasons that pyramiding doesn't often occur in the wild - in Mediterranean tortoises, at least - might be because in the microhabitat their bodies are best equipped for, their average growth rate is very slow. They don't grow when conditions aren't optimal, am I right?



Certainly growth is very _restricted_ when food intake is minimal or non-existent (though it does not necessarily cease completely). I have encountered tortoises that have emerged from hibernation or estivation with some new growth evident. Growth is also certainly *slow*, however, outside of peak foraging periods (of which here, there are two). I have some data for T. horsfieldii in my files, and if I recall correctly, there was only a total of 12 weeks activity out of 52 with those in the wild... and foraging periods even then were measured in minutes (not hours) per day. They spend vastly more time doing 'nothing' than doing 'something'! I could mention some people who also match the same description! 



lilacdragon said:


> In spring, when food is in good supply, they can grow fast; but at that time - and only at that time - the solar radiation is suitable for full morning basking; its warmth and short-wavelength infrared stimulates healthy bone and scute growth, its UVB ensures vitamin D3 levels are optimal too... and the humidity levels are possibly higher under green vegetation and maybe dawn dews also moisten the scutes occasionally, so contributing to softer keratin and healthy shell growth.
> But as soon as things are less optimal, either because it's too hot, or too dry, or winter is approaching... the very first thing that happens, in the wild, is that the food supply dries up or dies off. So they stop eating, and stop growing.
> Could this be protecting them from deformity?



I am personally sure that it is a very big part of it. I would say that it is not _just_ a question of food availability as such, but from my observations, temperature and water availability play a huge role in regulating behaviour - initiating and terminating estivation especially. More so, I feel, than mere food availability. We have been running some trials on that..... with some very interesting results.

Certainly it is the case that wild feeding, growth and activity is _incredibly _cyclic, in a stop-start kind of way, whereas most pets are expected to "perform" on a daily basis, possibly even for 12 months out of 12.

Those tend to be the very animals we see all kinds of health problems in.....the tortoises we have been monitoring here for just over four years now have had zero health problems and zero mortality. Other keepers and researchers I am in contact with who are using similar approaches report the same thing.




nearpass said:


> This is a problem here in the US. I contacted Agrops in Germany about importing Pre Alpin or their other diets to the US. We had a nice email exchange several years ago, and they were kind enough to send me samples. They indicated they were, at that time, looking for an importer, but since the US market is so limited, they doubted it could be done, and as far as I can tell, it has not happened. Sooooo...any suggestions for us here?



It is a problem. It is quite bulky stuff, so international shipping is disproportionally expensive. It is quite a different product from anything Zoomed/Mazuri currently make.... and in my opinion, considerably superior on many levels. I am actually quite surprised that no-one has developed anything similar in the US. There must be a market... I know Susan Donoghue DVM had something going (Walkabout Farms) but that was years ago and I believe the business was sold, then ceased. 

I really would have thought there is an opening there, for someone determined to do it right.


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## edwardbo

It may have been bought and ceased to eliminate the competition. ...what does the food look like ? Composed of ?


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## nearpass

edwardbo said:


> It may have been bought and ceased to eliminate the competition. ...what does the food look like ? Composed of ?



Here is the Agrops info on their tortoise foods...really wish we could get something like this here:

http://www.agrobs.de/futter/en/shop/10000/130000/


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## Sulcata_Sandy

In regards to long fibre diets, my INDOOR 50 lb Sulcata (yep, you heard me right, it's wet and freezing in Oregon) is on 100% hay (orchard blend) and IMHO doing very well on it. I have a 5 lb Sulcata with a cleft beak and palate that has extreme difficulty eating, so in order to boost his long fibre intake with the minced leafy greens he CAN ingest, I sprinkle hay "dust" (more or less the leftover short bits from my big Sully) on his greens. This has improved not on,y his appetite but also his stool quality to more like a normal Sulcata.

I have also recently started the same regime of hay sprinkles for all my other species of torts (Greek, Russian, Hermanni, Redfoots).

Do you feel this is a good plan for augmenting our "captive/indoor" diets? Mine are all wintering indoors now, it's freezing, muddy, raining, no vegetation currently. I am moving to a more rural area early spring so everything will change).

This thread is fascinating, I'm enjoying the questions, debate...everything.


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## Elohi

nearpass said:


> edwardbo said:
> 
> 
> 
> It may have been bought and ceased to eliminate the competition. ...what does the food look like ? Composed of ?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is the Agrops info on their tortoise foods...really wish we could get something like this here:
> 
> http://www.agrobs.de/futter/en/shop/10000/130000/
Click to expand...


Why in earth are those products not available here? How do we change that?


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## Cowboy_Ken

Elohi said:


> Contact the company and become the first US dealer. I can see those headlines already, â€œStay at home mom become millionaire importing tortoise chow"
> 
> The pellets may contain viable seeds that the US agriculture dept is worried about.


----------



## Yellow Turtle

Testudoresearch said:


> I think you have done the _opposite _of harm. The "harm" tends to be done by those who "kill with kindness". You are providing a much closer cycle to that which these tortoises are 'designed for' than average keepers. My guess is also that this is now one healthy tortoises. You have got it right.
> 
> This may be of some interest. These are some photos taken over several months in our own Testudo pens... we follow the same general approach. I don't even see _some _of them for weeks, or months on end...



I keep my tortoises outdoor, but now then if I ever keep any testudo species again, that means that I would provide the "kindness" every day and every year.

We don't have winter here, only rainy season and our dry season is not as hot as there. I have greens growing everyday full year. So, that means that I need to remove them from outdoor and provide one day eat, two days off eating cycle? And also provide them with artificial hibernation? And also, calcium supplementation is a must every day since I'm pretty sure our soil's calcium is not high due to half year raining...


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## ulkal

lilacdragon said:


> [...]
> 
> In spring, when food is in good supply, they can grow fast; but at that time - and only at that time - the solar radiation is suitable for full morning basking; its warmth and _short-wavelength infrared stimulates healthy bone and scute growth,_ its UVB ensures vitamin D3 levels are optimal too... and the humidity levels are possibly higher under green vegetation and maybe dawn dews also moisten the scutes occasionally, so contributing to softer keratin and healthy shell growth.
> 
> [...] Italics mine



okay, 1 second, I am confused. In the German Wikipedia-article they state, that IR-A is the short-wavelength Infrared. Please see the graphic here:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infrarotstrahlung
It also states that the "range of IR-B is founded on the waterabsorption at 1450 nm"
Above it was stated that IR-A gets filtered out and actually contributes to drying. Can someone please 'enlighten' me?Thanks!


----------



## Testudoresearch

Hopefully, Frances will jump in with some answers for you on the IR-A question. She explains it well.

I'd like to go back quite a few years and return to something I said in the introduction of one of my earlier books:
_
"One has only to look at how intimately wild tortoises rely upon their natural environment for all of their biological requirements; food, warmth, moisture, humidity, light, cover, nesting sites and mates are all there in exactly the right balance. Tortoises are 'niche' animals that have adapted over the millennia to fit perfectly into a very specific environmental and ecological 'slot'. Remove them from that environment, cut them off from their ecological roots, and tortoises very rapidly begin to experience serious difficulties. Most captive environments do not even begin to approach the true environmental and ecological ideal of the animals they are supposed to contain. It is for this reason, because it is so absolutely fundamental to successful maintenance, that I would suggest that everyone who wishes to keep tortoises or turtles in captivity should examine as carefully as possible the native habitats of whatever species they intend to keep. Nothing is more instructive, or is likely to provide more insight, than a few days spent meeting tortoises in the wild or visiting their habitats"_

This is something I feel quite strongly about, and I believe the above is as true to day as it ever was. Going back even further, writing in the context of diet in captivity, I have said this:

_"Nutritional disorders. The disorders may be usefully divided into two main groups consisting of:

diseases of excess
diseases of deficiency

The dietary requirements of captive herbivorous chelonians are far more complex than has previously been assumed by many keepers. It is apparent that the simplistic approach of providing a high quality diet in mammalian terms is totally inadequate to meet the real needs of chelonians which have a completely different set of requirements. Indeed, that which may represent a high quality diet for a mammal or carnivorous reptile may have entirely negative consequences when presented to a chelonian herbivore"_

Again, I feel this remains very true and very relevant. It goes to the core of the argument that the further we remove these animals from their natural environment, and natural diet, and the more we believe we can "improve" on these, the more problems we in fact create.

In that context, we see increasing evidence of keepers believing that "more is better" in so many areas. We started out finding that 'Tru-Lite' tubes made a huge difference to the prevention of MBD. More and more powerful lamps have subsequently been developed (this is no bad thing of itself), but keepers have often taken a very simplistic view, looked up mid-day UVB levels in the relevant natural habitat, and then 'blasted' their animals with this peak level for 14 hours a day! Not taking any account at all of the fact that the animal in question may *never *be out and about at mid-day in the first place! 

The same thing is seen with temperatures. You hear about the "Preferred Optimum" - but this can be highly misleading. I was quite shocked, when recently, I reviewed a large number of books and papers that have relied upon such data - only to discover that in _numerous _cases, the methodology used to take those temperatures was defective. The result is that much of the "Preferred Optimum" information and advice in print is incorrect and effectively meaningless. Yet, you again encounter case after case of people deciding that if the "preferred optimum" they read in a book says 32 Celsius, it must be a great idea to provide that 24/7! 

A further example is the person who reads that their tortoise, in the wild, is "most active" during the rainy season, and then decides that this must mean the rainy season is "best" and it is therefore a great idea and even "better" to provide it all year round. 

These are fundamental mistakes. *Mistakes not only in terms of the conditions that result, but also mistakes in terms of the psychology and education of keepers. *

I have coined a term for this. I call it *Environmental Excess Syndrome. * I should probably add little (r), (c) and (TM) symbols! Regardless, you read it here for the first time, 20 December 2013. It is from a forthcoming book dealing with advanced principles of chelonian husbandry. I define it as referring not only to the unsuitable conditions themselves that result, but also to the motivations and behaviour of keepers who - while genuinely intending to do good - actually cause harm.


----------



## paludarium

Testudoresearch said:


> I agree with you and am convinced beyond doubt that the comparison is a valid one. You only have to read the veterinary journals to see case-after-case linking excess growth to subsequent orthopedic problems. Cats, dogs, horses, reptiles... everything. I mentioned above that there are studies comparing wild to captive growth, this is just an example (one of many) but the results are pretty typical.


The study tried to compare growth rates in captive and wild tortoises, however it did not show adverse outcome of the fast growing captive individuals. 

To my surprise, the 3 sulcata tortoises ate animal matters when they were young. Because the authors reported that in their first years of life carp (fish) food was offered as well, as was common practice at the time. The three individuals, two males and one female, were weighed regularly during a period of almost 18 years. 

The research team also observed that both males masturbated at an age between four and five years (as confirmed by microscopic identification of ejaculate) and that the female laid her first eggs at an age of five years. In contrast, the estimated age of sexual maturity was 15 years (inflexion point) for free-ranging animals. 
This meant that fast growing sulcata tortoises accomplished their life cycles earlier. Would that be harmful to an endangered species? I don't know. I speculate that only healthy tortoises would copulate or even lay eggs?

The authors also pointed out that in the literature for private tortoise breeders, one can find warnings against fast growth, and even warnings that offspring of fast-growing animals may be less viable (e.g. Wegehaupt 2006). Nevertheless to the autors' knowledge, further evidence for these claims is lacking in tortoises...

The authors published another study in 2012 Variation in growth and potentially associated health status in Hermann's and spur-thighed tortoise (Testudo hermanni and Testudo graeca). They did not find indication that animals particularly heavy for their age were more prone to diet/growth-related disorders. In general, ortoises fed diets with meat/grain were heavier for their age than tortoises fed more appropriate diets; dietary history was not related to a particular disease. 

Their retrospective study also could not provide direct evidence for a correlation of growth rates with growth diseases, including MBD or pyramiding or of the presence of pyramiding with disease and survival.

Diets and fast growth may be correlated to pyramiding or health issues, but obviously were not causative in the some of the studies. We need prospective controlled study to prove that. At least, Tom already showed us that hundreds of tortoises raised in closed chamber were doing well so far. That's is a fact that we should not ignore, unless Tom lied to us. 

Erich


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## Testudoresearch

paludarium said:


> The study tried to compare growth rates in captive and wild tortoises, however it did not show adverse outcome of the fast growing captive individuals.



I think you must have missed this sentence:

*"slow-growing animals are more likely to thrive after release into the wild" *

I call that quite a significant adverse outcome.



paludarium said:


> The authors published another study in 2012 Variation in growth and potentially associated health status in Hermann's and spur-thighed tortoise (Testudo hermanni and Testudo graeca). They did not find indication that animals particularly heavy for their age were more prone to diet/growth-related disorders. In general, ortoises fed diets with meat/grain were heavier for their age than tortoises fed more appropriate diets; dietary history was not related to a particular disease.



That paper concluded:

*"growth-related disorders may well limit the life expectancy of tortoises"*

They also did not conclude that rapid growth was not an issue. They simply tried to argue that body length (rather than weight) was a more useful measure. 

That is just one paper. 

There are multiple studies and reports on why accelerated growth rates are a high-risk strategy and demonstrating a whole catalog of negative side-effects. You do not even have to read these however - you just have to understand the basic biology involved and it is self-evident that it would have to be so. From achieving normal, healthy, bone growth to avoiding renal problems, to healthy liver function - if you 'overload' on growth, there are consequences. You do not get "something for nothing". There is a price to be paid.


Opinions on this?


----------



## lilacdragon

Hello, guys.



> Hopefully, Frances will jump in with some answers for you on the IR-A question.



Hmm, ok Andy, although I've nicked some of your pictures to do it  

I've rambled on about it for a while, in a new post - since this one's now more looking at the effects of growth rates and diet.
Try this:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-84606.html

Best wishes,

Frances


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## julietteq

I have 2 leo's who hatched 1 week apart. They come from the same breeder and have different mothers. One of them is quite dark (Taco) and the other one is relatively blond (marshmellow). They have been living on the same table, under the same lamps, same food. Within weeks the darker one of the two started to pyramid. I have been measuring the temperature of their carapace and Taco's temperature is in average 2 degrees F higher then Marshmellow due to the color difference of the caparpace I assume. The other difference between them is their growthrate. Taco eats significantly more then Marshmellow (I feed them together, but Taco just eats "longer" then Marshmellow) and is thus gaining more weight. 

Taco MM
Oct 23, 2013	116 105
Oct 27, 2013	121 108
Oct 31, 2013	123 112
Nov 7, 2013	138 119
Nov 14, 2013	144 123
Nov. 20, 2013	153 130
Dec.4,2013 177 145
Dec 13, 2013	188 160

Summary: the tortoise who grows the fastest and is the warmest is pyramiding. The other one is not.


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## Yellow Turtle

julietteq said:


> Summary: the tortoise who grows the fastest and is the warmest is pyramiding. The other one is not.



My aldabra is black, which I believe much darker than your dark leopard. I soak him every morning under direct sunlight which is pretty hot for like 1 - 2 hours.

He eats a lot every day and should be more than any leopard his size can eat.

To summarize, he grows very fast and absorbs heat lightning fast due to his nature dark color. Well, I think I get lucky then that he still grows pretty smooth.


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## julietteq

Yellow Turtle said:


> julietteq said:
> 
> 
> 
> Summary: the tortoise who grows the fastest and is the warmest is pyramiding. The other one is not.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My aldabra is black, which I believe much darker than your dark leopard. I soak him every morning under direct sunlight which is pretty hot for like 1 - 2 hours.
> 
> He eats a lot every day and should be more than any leopard his size can eat.
> 
> To summarize, he grows very fast and absorbs heat lightning fast due to his nature dark color. Well, I think I get lucky then that he still grows pretty smooth.
Click to expand...


I am not making any conclusions. Just stating my observations. Obviously it is only 2 torts and the results are not signifiant.


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## Yellow Turtle

julietteq said:


> I am not making any conclusions. Just stating my observations. Obviously it is only 2 torts and the results are not signifiant.



Please have no worry cause like I mention, I just feel lucky with my single aldabra.

Oh, maybe I should add up more since I also have a leopard, too. He gets the same daily care as my aldabra. He eats much less, grows significantly slower and still somehow pyramided.


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## Tom

Does it not make sense that a young tortoise in favorable conditions, with good temps, hydration and a good weedy high fiber diet, is going to grow faster than its wild counterpart who is dealing with weather extremes, dodging predators all day, carrying a larger parasite load, and suffering from seasonal food shortages? It makes sense to me. Of course the captive is going to grow faster. This does not make it a bad thing. In fact it has proven to be a very good thing. Now if the accelerated growth is due to an inappropriate and possibly deleterious diet, or intentionally "power feeding", or intentionally keeping a given species, like testudo for example at high temperatures all the time, then I could see it as a problem. Painting any and all growth that is faster than what occurs in the wild as "bad" is ridiculous. If a sulcata is fed a good diet ("good" meaning lots of grazing on grasses, weeds, leaves and occasional succulents), kept well hydrated with available drinking water and soaks, and allowed to roam around in a large outdoor "natural" looking well planted enclosure, it WILL grow faster in captivity than in the wild, and I say this is in NO way bad or detrimental. What is bad is keeping hatchlings on dry substrate in a dry enclosure under hot bulbs and feeding them a poor diet of plain lettuce.


There are two factors that are being ignored here in all this discussion, at least by some people:

1. Captivity is NOT the wild. No matter what we do or don't understand about the wild, there are millions of factors and variables that cannot be known much less accounted or compensated for. No matter how much we think we know, simulating the Sahel in a North American backyard or British garden is not possible. We should all do our best to come as close as we can, but we must understand that some things are necessary and beneficial in captivity to make up for the things that we don't understand and cannot simulate about the wild. Having drinking water available every day is a good example. Its not "natural" for them to have this everyday in the wild, but that doesn't mean its "bad" for them in captivity.

2. A little box in a living room, while sometimes necessary, has its draw backs. lilcadragon's explanation of our available lighting options highlights this fact. It should be obvious that attempting to exactly duplicate "wild" temperatures and humidity in this decidedly "un-wild" situation using artificial electric heating and lighting equipment will not lead to good results. In the case of sulcatas and leopards we have 20+years of history to demonstrate this. There are things we can do to help mitigate the effects of our artificial indoor set ups. Things like maintaining higher humidity than what they might encounter every day in the wild and offering a humid hide box and shell spraying for the animal to escape the effects of our necessary desiccating light bulbs. Claims that doing these things are harmful are completely un-based, and reality has demonstrated otherwise with thousands of examples over many years now. Claiming that doing these things are "insane", is in fact insane, as they make perfect sense. Using "un-natural" captive techniques to counter "un-natural" captive shortcomings makes perfect sense, AND it works very well if done correctly. If you wish to build a dirt pile that is 4' tall, but your pile will start in a 2' hole, doesn't it makes sense that you will need 6' of dirt and not 4'? To make my analogy more clear, the 2' hole represents the desiccating heating elements that do not exist in the wild, but are necessary in our captive indoor environments. So yes, I do offer a humid hide with higher humidity than what my russian tortoises are likely to encounter in the wild every day. I do it because I also offer them a desiccating light bulb to warm up under when they are indoors, which they would also not encounter in the wild.

I tried to simulate wild conditions with my sulcatas for years and years. I studied everything I could find, talked to experts all over the globe and kept things as natural as possible. I used a lot of the techniques that Andy is advocating here to sell his new upcoming book. In fact my climate is pretty close to the Sahel for at least part of the year. The end result is that "natural" didn't work because even my 5 acre ranch in the country isn't "nature". Time showed me that certain elements, whether understood or not, could not be duplicated in our captive environments. I have looked at hundreds if not thousands of cases from friends, family, co-workers, people I meet out in the world and a large number of vets who treat tortoises and reptiles. Certain patterns are obvious and to ignore them makes no sense. When the "natural" methods failed me and everyone else I know time and time again, I began looking for solutions. I began studying the captive exceptions that grew well (in FL and Louisiana mostly). I began looking at the extreme cases of failure with the horrid malformed scutes. My tortoises grew very slowly, but still somewhat pyramided. Other examples were horribly pyramided. I looked and those examples and how they were housed and tried to discern what was different. In time, with lots of help, and many sources of info and discovery, I was able to figure out some techniques that worked well to counter the bad elements of our artificial environments. From the very beginning many protested that it was un-natural and that all sorts of bad things would happen. Bad things didn't happen. Good things happened. Then I did it again and again and again, and EVERY time, good things happened. Then other people started doing it, and good things happened for them too. I fact, I have yet to see any of the bad things that were supposed to happen, ever happen. In thousands of cases of people using these techniques, there has not been one case of the sky falling. This being the case, the nay-sayers are grasping at straws with the latest claim being that "while things SEEM okay now, we are doing damage that won't be seen for 15-20 years. This is absolute non-sense and has NO basis in fact, whatsoever. These claims are made with not one single examination of ANY of the tortoises that have benefitted from these new techniques. My challenge on this fact was completely ignored. I offered any of my animals up for examination and the offer was ignored. Not even addressed. Meanwhile, I am painted as an uneducated unscientific idiot, for not ignoring clear evidence right in front of my face, while the person painting the picture has NO evidence whatsoever to base his claims on. Yet Andy is going to sit here and continue peddling his wares and not addressing these valid points because, he claims, I questioned his integrity by asking him to explain the origin and history of two tortoises that he posted pics of. Laughable.


----------



## DeanS

Cowboy_Ken said:


> Elohi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Contact the company and become the first US dealer. I can see those headlines already, â€œStay at home mom become millionaire importing tortoise chow"
> 
> The pellets may contain viable seeds that the US agriculture dept is worried about.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I doubt this is any different than feeding ZooMed Grassland. Does European production make it better? I was quite satisfied with the ingredients in Grassland...I just found I got 'bigger, faster' results with Mazuri, hay and my lawn...replete with all the proper grasses, weeds, succulents...you get the picture. But I have opted to change up the lighting process...for necessary indoor husbandry. Andy's theories on environmental lighting and off-feeding days strike me as extremely feasible...so why not?!?!? Not too sure about some of the other banter...but baby steps will suffice, for now!
Click to expand...


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## FLINTUS

Tom said:


> In fact it has proven to be a very good thing.


I think you know my opinion on wild replication in captive environments so we won't go over that again. 
BUT, that above is a very bold statement. What is your evidence of this proof that faster growth is definitely better?
Not slating you, but I cannot see how you can draw that conclusion.


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## lilacdragon

Hi, DeanS.
I didn't know what either of these products were, so I looked them up.

This is ZooMed Grassland.
It's pelleted. How big are the pellets? Is this finely ground? It's hard to guess from the picture.
http://zoomed.com/db/products/EntryDetail.php?EntryID=228&DatabaseID=2&SearchID=5

This is Agrobs Pre-Alpin Testudo Fibre Tortoise Food.
It's rough-chopped dried material, with pieces that look about 1/2 to 1 inch long. (Check out the stuff in the transparent bags, in the smaller photos..)
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/AGROBS-PRE-ALPIN-TESTUDO-FIBRE-TORTOISE-FOOD-250g-1-2-lb-8-8oz/301038928289

It depends how finely ground the pellets are, as to the comparative gut transition time, the gut flora produced, and the digestibility..... I would suspect that the rough-chopped stuff has very different characteristics, even if the weeds and hay it is made out of were to be identical.

Has anyone looked at this?

Frances


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## mikeh

I too am very curious about this. 
Below is an image of "dry" Zoomed grassland diet. Pellets size and crushed. 




For comparison, here is a "dry" Mazuri tortoise diet (old formula) that is very popular among tortoise owners. Faster growth has been reported by number of people feeding Mazuri.


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## Tom

FLINTUS said:


> What is your evidence of this proof that faster growth is definitely better?
> Not slating you, but I cannot see how you can draw that conclusion.



Not saying faster growth is better. I'm saying that a good diet, sunshine exercise and hydration, is better than a lack of a good diet, sunshine, exercise and hydration, which would all contribute to slower growth.

I'm saying that growth rate doesn't matter. All the proper conditions matter. Health matters. Intentionally growing them slower by starving them, dehydrating them, and keeping them cold and dark throughout the year id just as bad as powerfeeding and intentionally trying to grow them fast.


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## Sulcata_Sandy

I radiographed my 20 year old WC RF today.



Guess I better call the person I got her from and ask if she's been exposed to males. [GRINNING FACE WITH SMILING EYES]

She is 11.5" and 8 lbs. I caught her nesting yesterday. Thoughts on her bone density?
INWILL get mynCB male imaged soon


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## lilacdragon

mikeh said:


> I too am very curious about this.
> Faster growth has been reported by number of people feeding Mazuri.



A quick search on Google and I found this:
Baer, D. J., Oftedal, O. T., Rumpler, W. V., & Ullrey, D. E. (1997). Dietary fiber influences nutrient utilization, growth and dry matter intake of green iguanas (Iguana iguana). The Journal of nutrition, 127(8), 1501-1507.
http://nutrition.highwire.org/content/127/8/1501.full

I'm not sure if it can be generalised to tortoises but if so, it would suggest a reason for the faster growth with Mazuri.

I am not happy with promoting un-naturally fast growth as something to aim for. It's difficult enough to provide a baby creature with all it needs to grow at a normal rate (just think about rickets re-emerging in human children, in some of the best-fed and best-educated nations worldwide...) and maxing out the growth rate seems like chancing fate to me... 
I've no doubt it can be done with no obvious ill effects by some experienced keepers. But since advice on forums is always going to be taken up and followed blindly by many people less dedicated and less well informed than the regular readers of the forum, I think it always has to err on the side of caution.

Frances


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## Testudoresearch

DeanS said:


> I doubt this is any different than feeding ZooMed Grassland. Does European production make it better?




It is totally different. Simply no comparison. The Zoomed is a highly processed product that contains wheat and soy byproducts, in addition to numerous other artificial ingredients:

"Soybean Hulls, Wheat Middlings, Suncured Alfalfa Meal, Whole Ground Wheat"

These are not appropriate. The ingredient list reads like a chemical plant inventory....

"Suncured Oat Hay, Suncured Timothy Hay, Soybean Hulls, Wheat Middlings, Suncured Alfalfa Meal, Whole Ground Wheat, Escarole, Endive, Calcium Carbonate, Monocalcium Phosphate, Dicalcium Phosphate, Yeast Culture, Dandelion Greens (dried), Sodium Bicarbonate, Soy Lecithin, Direct-Fed Microorganisms (heat stable cultures of Lactobacillus acidophilus, Lactobacillus casei, Bifidobacterium bifidum, Enterococcus faecium, Aspergillus oryzae), Yeast Extract, Hydrated Sodium Calcium Aluminosilicate, Garlic Extract, Anise Extract, Cassia Extract (Chinese), Ginger Extract, Horseradish Extract, Juniper Extract, Natural Flavoring, Marigold (petal extract), Yucca schidigera (whole plant powder), L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (source of stabilized Vitamin C), Zinc Methionine Complex, Selenium Yeast, Vitamin E Supplement, Mixed Tocopherols, Rosemary Extract, Ascorbic Acid, Citric Acid, Lecithin, Silicon Dioxide, Choline Chloride, Vitamin A Supplement (Retinyl Acetate), Vitamin D3 Supplement, Niacin Supplement, d-Calcium Pantothenate (source of Vitamin B5), Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex (source of Vitamin K activity), Riboflavin Supplement (source of Vitamin B2), Thiamine Mononitrate (source of Vitamin B1), Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (source of Vitamin B6), Biotin, Folic Acid, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Zinc Oxide, Manganous Oxide, Ferrous Sulfate, Tribasic Copper Chloride, Calcium Iodate, Sodium Selenite"

The Agrob products are - most importantly - cereal free without these spurious additives. The phytic acid content of Zoomed is of concern. If highly fermentable sugars and starches are added to a mix already inadequate in particle size, the digestion will accelerate rapidly. Unfortunately, many pelleted foods are extremely poor performers in this regard as they typically include a high proportion of starch-rich food industry by-products such as corn (maize) meal, soya derivatives, oats and other grain-based ingredients. 

Rapid growth is not a model or measure of success, for the reasons Frances highlights.




lilacdragon said:


> It depends how finely ground the pellets are, as to the comparative gut transition time, the gut flora produced, and the digestibility..... I would suspect that the rough-chopped stuff has very different characteristics, even if the weeds and hay it is made out of were to be identical.
> 
> Has anyone looked at this?



Yes, in some detail. The raw ingredients are entirely different and the manufacturing process is also entirely different. The fibres of the Agrob product are much less "disturbed" and are far longer than in the Zoomed product. The digestibility profile is different. I feel the Agrob is the best product so far available for herbivorous reptiles. 

While it is the case that on the surface pelleted foods may appear to be an attractive means of providing dried vegetation to captive tortoises, most - as noted - fail in a number of critical respects. The development of pelleted foods that include a high proportion of very long fibres, coarse, large particles and an appropriate protein and trace-element content should not be impossible, however. Some commercial manufacturers have already moved in that direction (Pro-Alpin and Pre-Alpin Testudo). These products are unusual in that they include a much broader diversity of plant species than typical mass-produced pellet feeds, and they omit the potentially very damaging grain and maize-based derivatives included in most other commercial offerings. They also have crude fibre and protein levels that more closely approximate that of the typical wild diet.

I do feel that promoting high growth rates is an extremely outmoded husbandry objective. It was a popular concept 30 or more years ago. Things have moved on in reptile nutrition, and overly-simplistic, flawed views such as "faster, bigger = better" really should be combined to history. What we should be aiming at is achieving healthy growth as measured by bone mineral density and other reliable markers.


----------



## Team Gomberg

I'm not aware of anyone that is promoting high growth rates. 
I know my leopards grow "faster" because they are well fed and properly hydrated but the speed in which they grow has never been my focus, let alone something I promote.


----------



## paludarium

Testudoresearch said:


> paludarium said:
> 
> 
> 
> The study tried to compare growth rates in captive and wild tortoises, however it did not show adverse outcome of the fast growing captive individuals.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think you must have missed this sentence:
> 
> *"slow-growing animals are more likely to thrive after release into the wild" *
> 
> I call that quite a significant adverse outcome.
> 
> 
> 
> paludarium said:
> 
> 
> 
> The authors published another study in 2012 Variation in growth and potentially associated health status in Hermann's and spur-thighed tortoise (Testudo hermanni and Testudo graeca). They did not find indication that animals particularly heavy for their age were more prone to diet/growth-related disorders. In general, ortoises fed diets with meat/grain were heavier for their age than tortoises fed more appropriate diets; dietary history was not related to a particular disease.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That paper concluded:
> 
> *"growth-related disorders may well limit the life expectancy of tortoises"*
> 
> They also did not conclude that rapid growth was not an issue. They simply tried to argue that body length (rather than weight) was a more useful measure.
> 
> That is just one paper.
> 
> There are multiple studies and reports on why accelerated growth rates are a high-risk strategy and demonstrating a whole catalog of negative side-effects. You do not even have to read these however - you just have to understand the basic biology involved and it is self-evident that it would have to be so. From achieving normal, healthy, bone growth to avoiding renal problems, to healthy liver function - if you 'overload' on growth, there are consequences. You do not get "something for nothing". There is a price to be paid.
> 
> 
> Opinions on this?
Click to expand...



Here are 2 prospective studies that began with the hatchlings or neonate for a few years.

Growth and body composition in captive Testudo graeca terrestris fed with a high-energy diet. The diet in the study was exclusively composed from a commercial canned, vitamin-enriched cat food(Tuffyâ€™s, Heinz Pet Products, Kentucky, USA). 78 g of cat food was blended with22 g starch (corn ï¬‚our), to dilute the excess protein with a high carbohydrate. However, the breeding activity was attained at about 170 wk in males and 230 wk (4 years) in females. The authors concluded that growth and maturity were highly accelerated in Testudo graeca terrestris, *without symptoms of disease*, by providing them with a high energy protein-balanced diet.

Assessment of dual-energy x-ray absorptiometry for use in evaluating the effects of dietary and environmental management on Hermann's tortoises (Testudo hermanni). The neonates kept in group 1 housed in an artificial setting and fed naturally growing vegetation were prone to develop pyramiding than group 2 housed housed in an artificial setting and fed vegetables grown for human consumption. The natural-housed control group had the shell with the lowest BMD(bone mineral density). *The difference in BMD of captive-raised tortoises and control tortoises in the study could have been secondary to the environment, apart from the diet.* In the authorsâ€™ opinion, the environment may have been responsible for the variations in BMD in 2 ways. The authors also speculated that excess calcium in Hermannâ€™s tortoises is primarily deposited in the carapace bones. This exaggerated deposition could result in pathological morphological consequences (ie, pyramidal growth). 

So, what were roles of animal matters or high protein and the vegetables for humans in the above prospective studies that have been conducted for more than 2 years on the neonates? To promote pyramiding?

IMHO, the tortoises in our enclosures were no more wild animals but pets, unless we leave the tortoises alone in their own habitats and they make their own living, nothing is natural, even in the well equipped zoos or breeding centers. Human beings intended to breed animals for dozens of reasons, e.g. for the appearances (smooth shells or brilliant colors) and for more offsprings to sell or to eat. Tom has showed us a way to raise tortoises with minimal pyramiding, and I accepted it.

Erich


----------



## Dizisdalife

Testudoresearch said:


> I do feel that promoting high growth rates is an extremely outmoded husbandry objective. It was a popular concept 30 or more years ago. Things have moved on in reptile nutrition, and overly-simplistic, flawed views such as "faster, bigger = better" really should be combined to history. What we should be aiming at is achieving healthy growth as measured by bone mineral density and other reliable markers.



I agree with Heather in that I have not seen anyone promoting high growth rate as a sign of good husbandry, or tortoise health in general. Often it is mentioned that one should not be overly concerned if their pet is growing faster (or slower) than someone else's tortoise.
How would I as a keeper of a single sulcata measure bone mineral density? Is this something that my local reptile Vet could do for me, and how often should it be done?


----------



## lilacdragon

Hmm... 

I agree with Team Gomberg, I don't think anyone here is deliberately promoting high growth rates, i.e., recommending "power feeding" or whatever. And I hardly think that anyone is promoting "intentionally growing them slower by starving them, dehydrating them, and keeping them cold and dark throughout the year", either. That is an insulting insinuation.

I think Tom has summed up his position rather well in one of his last couple of posts, when he said: 


> Using "un-natural" captive techniques to counter "un-natural" captive shortcomings makes perfect sense, AND it works very well if done correctly. ....... the desiccating heating elements that do not exist in the wild, .... are necessary in our captive indoor environments. So yes, I do offer a humid hide with higher humidity than what my russian tortoises are likely to encounter in the wild every day. I do it because I also offer them a desiccating light bulb to warm up under when they are indoors, which they would also not encounter in the wild.



Now there is a certain logic to this. Dealing with a problem by alleviating its symptoms does not mean you have solved the problem; but you have put "sticking plaster over the wound" and it's often the best we can do. I think Tom is acknowledging this, and he is presenting us with what he has found to be good "sticking plaster" for certain problems with growing Sulcatas.... 

The honest truth is that there is no way that we can ever completely remove the problems inherent in keeping a species in an environment it has not evolved to live in. The animal is "not meant to live here".
We can only (a) decide that it is wrong to keep an animal outside of its natural habitat (which is a perfectly reasonable conclusion) or (b) work towards finding the best alternative environment that the animal can cope with, and which is within the owner's capabilities and resources. 

(b) will inevitably mean applying sticking plaster over a certain number of as-yet unsolved, and possibly insoluble problems. 
I think Testudoresearch is right that there are going to be long-term health issues which are not at all obvious in the first decades, maybe the first half-century of life, when animals are taken out of the environment they evolved to inhabit, and so many factors are altered.
To take an example I am more familiar with: Can you think of a way of providing an indoor pet reptile in a vivarium with a "sun" that rises, moves across the sky and sets at a slightly different time each day, changing its UV and visible spectrum and creating polarisation patterns in the sky as it does so? And if you could, would you refuse to sell any reptile to anyone who can't afford the "solar simulator"? 
But reptiles, like many other animals, use the sun to set their circadian and circannual rhythms, which govern all their neurological and endocrine pathways.. seasonal changes, activity levels, and basking behaviour.... A tortoise that is living in artificial day/night cycles with no seasons, no rest periods, no real sunlight will not have normal physiology. It appears "normal" and seems perfectly "healthy" ... but will that abnormal physiology alter its susceptibility to stress, infection, metabolic disorders or cancer, in later life?
I don't know. But I know that there's a huge burden of disease in humans that's increasingly being ascribed to our "civilised" way of life, far from the outdoor lifestyle of our ancestors, who were tied to day/night cycles and seasonal unprocessed foods. We all seem "healthy" but our circadian rhythms are messed up, there is a pandemic of vitamin D deficiency, and in later life there's a huge and ever-growing number of people developing seasonal affective disorder, auto-immune diseases, obesity, heart disease, diabetes, osteoporosis, cancers....

Fortunately, the animals we choose to keep are some of the most resilient creatures on the planet, surviving in some of the most inhospitable places on earth. I think this is why somehow so many survive the most inexpert care... and why those people who do offer their animals expert care, care a great deal about them, like Tom and Testudoresearch, who I suspect have very different opinions regarding my (a) and/or (b)....

But I digress. The topic was "food and growth rates"...
Free unlimited access to food throughout early life is inevitably going to increase growth rates over those which a perfectly healthy youngster in its own habitat, in the best of years, would achieve, even without parasites, predators etc. It is a technique used in "headstarting" re-population programs worldwide, for rearing baby reptiles of highly endangered species so that they will be big enough to have a better chance of survival than wild babies would have done, at the time of release.
And finely powdered meal is highly digestible compared to coarse fibrous pellets and the even coarser Pro Alpin or whatever. So that will also increase growth rates. If it contains cereals then there will be starches and sugars, not found in wild diets, which are rapidly digested too. 
So the type of food offered, and the period it is offered for, _will_ "promote high growth rates" whether the owner knows and wants this, or not....

Frances

p.s. Has anyone looked at the X-ray of Sulcata Sandy's tortoise, in the last post on the previous page?


----------



## Testudoresearch

paludarium said:


> Growth and body composition in captive Testudo graeca terrestris fed with a high-energy diet. The diet in the study was exclusively composed from a commercial canned, vitamin-enriched cat food(Tuffyâ€™s, Heinz Pet Products, Kentucky, USA). 78 g of cat food was blended with22 g starch (corn ï¬‚our), to dilute the excess protein with a high carbohydrate. However, the breeding activity was attained at about 170 wk in males and 230 wk (4 years) in females. The authors concluded that growth and maturity were highly accelerated in Testudo graeca terrestris, *without symptoms of disease*, by providing them with a high energy protein-balanced diet.



It helps if you are familiar with the full paper and its conclusions before citing it.....

This is what it _actually_ says. I have it in my library.

_
"the *achievement of rapid growth were found to result in three syndromes* in growing tortoises: soft shell (osteomalacia) (Wronski et al., 1992; Homer et al., 1998); lumpy shell (pyramiding), due to insufficient calcium and phosphorus; and* gout (uricacidaemia), as a result of excessive protein intake *(Scot, 1992). A high protein diet was suggested to solve soft shell and lumpy shell syndromes, but this* diet frequently caused gout and eventual death* in growing tortoises. This was also our experience in initial trials: A *vegetarian diet produced the soft shell syndrome* and high mortality of hatchlings, even when reared in the open exposed to natural sunlight; a high *protein diet alleviated soft shell but resulted in gout and therefore also a high rate of mortality*"_

The methodology of this study was also _seriously_ flawed (a common trend). One failure was the use of a *glass greenhouse.* Glass blocks UVB... duh! They also used an infra-red, not UVB generating lamp. Double duh! They claim "tortoises experienced a natural humidity" - but had the windows closed some of the time and in any event the humidity in a greenhouse, even with the windows open is invariable different than that outside (measure it yourself - they didn't), and the real 'killer'? The "vegetarian diet" used was lettuce and tomato! No supplements or other source of calcium used. Does that qualify for a triple "Duh!"?

It is a wonderful example of some of the really _poor _work relying on abysmal methodology, and drawing completely the wrong conclusions, that manages to get itself published. Just because it is published does not mean it is true.....




paludarium said:


> Assessment of dual-energy x-ray absorptiometry for use in evaluating the effects of dietary and environmental management on Hermann's tortoises (Testudo hermanni). The neonates kept in group 1 housed in an artificial setting and fed naturally growing vegetation were prone to develop pyramiding than group 2 housed housed in an artificial setting and fed vegetables grown for human consumption. The natural-housed control group had the shell with the lowest BMD(bone mineral density). *The difference in BMD of captive-raised tortoises and control tortoises in the study could have been secondary to the environment, apart from the diet.* In the authorsâ€™ opinion, the environment may have been responsible for the variations in BMD in 2 ways. The authors also speculated that excess calcium in Hermannâ€™s tortoises is primarily deposited in the carapace bones. This exaggerated deposition could result in pathological morphological consequences (ie, pyramidal growth).



I have read that one too. Again, you have (some pretty obvious) variables not taken into account, and quite a bit of speculation with zero supporting evidence. Their main intent was not to grow nice tortoises (so they did not put much thought into that) but instead, to look at x-ray techniques. They showed certain x-ray techniques are useful. They did not discover much about tortoises....



paludarium said:


> So, what were roles of animal matters or high protein and the vegetables for humans in the above prospective studies that have been conducted for more than 2 years on the neonates? To promote pyramiding?



Quoting from the first study:

lumpy shell (pyramiding), due to insufficient calcium and phosphorus
gout (uricacidaemia), as a result of excessive protein intake
a high rate of mortality

All of which is 100% predictable and was described years ago. 



paludarium said:


> IMHO, the tortoises in our enclosures were no more wild animals but pets



Are you suggesting that their nutritional and environmental needs are somewhere different? How? Just because you remove them from the wild for a couple of generations has no effect whatsoever on either...

Their needs are identical.




lilacdragon said:


> p.s. Has anyone looked at the X-ray of Sulcata Sandy's tortoise, in the last post on the previous page?



Difficult to get a totally accurate analysis with that image size/resolution, but the pelvic and limb bones appear well formed and of acceptable density. The carapace mineralization appears (to me) to be _possibly_ a little bit on the 'light' side. It is not gross, however and may not be significant. I would not like to reach a firm conclusion from that one image. There is nothing there that I can see that suggests anything seriously wrong. The eggs appear well-calcified.




Dizisdalife said:


> I agree with Heather in that I have not seen anyone promoting high growth rate as a sign of good husbandry, or tortoise health in general.



You will see it if you read a cross-section of various journals. It crops up quite frequently. In the Israeli study cited above, for example, the idea was to use high growth rates to "farm" Testudo... this is not an isolated case. In fact the same authors wrote another paper suggesting the same thing. It is a concept you see put forward quite often. 




Dizisdalife said:


> How would I as a keeper of a single sulcata measure bone mineral density? Is this something that my local reptile Vet could do for me, and how often should it be done?



Honestly, you should not need to, certainly not on a routine basis. This is not something every keeper has to do. Once a good basic diet, and suitable environment is adopted, _very few problems will occur_. Major problems only tend to be seen where husbandry is quite evidently defective.

If you adopt a diet (for a herbivorous tortoise) that offers:

a) High fiber (aim for >30%)
b) High calcium, low phosphorus (>5:1 minimum, preferably >8:1)
b) Wet basis protein levels in the 4-5% range (DM circa 9%)
c) Avoids highly fermentable carbohydrates/starches

and

d) Provide adequate UVB
e) A suitable thermal environment
f) Adequate space and exercise and avoid overfeeding

.... you will, generally, be absolutely fine.


----------



## Testudoresearch

lilacdragon said:


> Dealing with a problem by alleviating its symptoms does not mean you have solved the problem; but you have put "sticking plaster over the wound"



Precisely.

Let me try to be *really clear* here. 

You can prevent/suppress 'pyramiding' by maintaining the scute keratin at saturation point, almost regardless of nutritional factors. The physics are really simple. *Soft keratin results in a massively reduced stress loading on the skeleton. * However.... as I said in the first edition of the "Tortoise & Turtle Feeding Manual (2000), when these methods began to be suggested:
_
"It is also vital to note that none of the other consequences for health.... would in any way be ameliorated by increasing ambient humidity during such growth even though the most visible external effect known as â€˜pyramidingâ€™ may be reduced"_

That was written well before the complete mechanism had been fully explored and explained (as set out in our initial presentation in 2010).

The full paper appears as a chapter in the new edition of that text which is appearing shortly. 

In short, 'Pyramiding' is a *SYMPTOM *of a problem, *not the problem itself*, and the symptom can be suppressed using extreme husbandry techniques (saturation at high temperatures), because this _changes the physical property_ of the keratin (temporarily). Remove the humidity/heat and normal stiffness will return.... better hope all the bones are very good condition at that point....

When the extreme humidity is removed, the keratin will begin to equalize to normal ambient humidity. It will stiffen and shrink... considerable pressures and stresses will be generated. Not theory. Proven material science. Look it up.


----------



## Tom

lilacdragon said:


> And I hardly think that anyone is promoting "intentionally growing them slower by starving them, dehydrating them, and keeping them cold and dark throughout the year", either. That is an insulting insinuation.



Insulting insinuation? This is exactly what Andy has suggested for people to do. He says to not feed them three times a week, leave the heat and lights off sometimes, and posted pics saying that he doesn't even see some of his tortoises for months at a time. I cannot sit by and pretend any of that is okay or acceptable. It isn't to me. I feel sorry for his tortoises.



lilacdragon said:


> Now there is a certain logic to this. Dealing with a problem by alleviating its symptoms does not mean you have solved the problem; but you have put "sticking plaster over the wound" and it's often the best we can do. I think Tom is acknowledging this, and he is presenting us with what he has found to be good "sticking plaster" for certain problems with growing Sulcatas....



I will agree with this to a point. But I don't find 80% humidity, 80 degree temps, and daily soaks, to be "sticking plaster over a wound" for sulcatas. They do experience these conditions in the wild for at least part of the year from everything I have been told and read, and in this case, it DOES seem that I have solved the problem. Further, these things work in actual practice, where all else has failed. Turns out that these things also work very well for starting hatchlings of many other species whether or not those species experience those conditions with regularity in the wild.




lilacdragon said:


> The honest truth is that there is no way that we can ever completely remove the problems inherent in keeping a species in an environment it has not evolved to live in. The animal is "not meant to live here".
> We can only (a) decide that it is wrong to keep an animal outside of its natural habitat (which is a perfectly reasonable conclusion) or (b) work towards finding the best alternative environment that the animal can cope with, and which is within the owner's capabilities and resources.



This seems to me to be a very insightful way of looking at all this. I frequently consider point (a) when I hear people lamenting about their lack of funds or space. Option (b) is what I have spent more than 2 decades trying to perfect. I have spent untold thousands of dollars and I can't even count the number of thousands of hours trying to determine what is "best" in a PRACTICAL sense. This is why when Andy's second post on this forum specifically addresses me, by name, and then decries what I have learned as "unnatural", "insane", or somehow detrimental, I react with defense of my stance.

I have raised dozens of animals using the techniques he describes and recommends. The results for me, and for hundreds of others that I have observed, were not satisfactory for sulcatas or leopards. In my experience, his recommendations will work fine for Greeks, Russians and CA desert tortoises. By contrast, Andy has never raised a single animal using the techniques that I recommend. Nor has he seen first hand or examined a single one. Yet he accuses ME of making statements and assertions that are made up and don't have proper scientific data to back them up.



lilacdragon said:


> I think Testudoresearch is right that there are going to be long-term health issues which are not at all obvious in the first decades, maybe the first half-century of life, when animals are taken out of the environment they evolved to inhabit, and so many factors are altered.



This I do not understand. Please elaborate. So you are saying that with good temperatures, diet, hydration, and outdoor exercise and sunshine, my tortoises are going to grow up and seem to be healthy and fine, but somehow, after 50 years of health and reproduction, I am going to discover some health issue because of how they were started 50 years ago? Forgive me, but this defies any known logic, and I can think of nothing to relate this too. Unfortunately, it is likely that none of us will be around to see if this is true or not.



lilacdragon said:


> Free unlimited access to food throughout early life is inevitably going to increase growth rates over those which a perfectly healthy youngster in its own habitat, in the best of years, would achieve, even without parasites, predators etc. It is a technique used in "headstarting" re-population programs worldwide, for rearing baby reptiles of highly endangered species so that they will be big enough to have a better chance of survival than wild babies would have done, at the time of release.



Here you bring up a good point. This "head-starting" and faster than wild growth rates, may indeed present a problem for SOME tortoises in SOME situations. Case in point: At this years TTPG conference we received several presentations on the goings on in the Galapagos. Don't remember which Island offhand, but it is one of the very sparsely vegetated ones. For 70 years there has been NO wild reproduction because introduced rats consume hatchlings upon emergence. (This problem, thank goodness, has now been solved and wild reproduction has resumed after all these years...) The researchers have been collecting eggs and head starting the babies for decades before reintroducing the tortoises to their island of origin once they get to a size where the rats wouldn't bother them. After nearly 20 years these head-started babies are literally twice the size of their wild raised parents. Normal adult size for this island is around 90 pounds, while some of the tortoises that were head started for 5 years and then released back onto the island have now attained sizes of 180 pounds. Interesting to me that those first five years has such a profound effect, even after the next 15 years is spent with the islands limited hydration and nutrition issues. They are concerned that these giants may have trouble surviving down the road because the island might not be able to support the caloric needs of such large animals. It is a study in progress.

This highlights the profound effect that we humans have over these animals lives based on what we do or don't do. Since none of our animals are intended for wild re-release, it seems logical to me to try and give them the best we can. As has been noted, I am not trying to grow my animals at any speed, fast or slow. I am trying to grow them healthy. If they are larger than their wild counterparts of the same age, I am okay with that and can see the reasons for that.

lilacdragon, I don't know who or where you are, or what your background is, but you demonstrate an insight and open-mindedness that many don't. I appreciate that, and look forward to more.




Testudoresearch said:


> When the extreme humidity is removed, the keratin will begin to equalize to normal ambient humidity. It will stiffen and shrink... considerable pressures and stresses will be generated. Not theory. Proven material science. Look it up.



You are dead on here, and this is my current issue. I start hatchlings with the methods you decry as so extreme, despite the obvious success of the techniques, but at some point these babies grow up and have to live outside in my dry climate. I gradually have the babies spend more and more time outside on a daily basis as they gain size. A weaning, of sorts, from the conditions that allowed their carapaces to form naturally as tiny hatchlings. Once they are outside full time, the scute margins begin to reflect the dry growing conditions.

For this problem, I have not yet found a satisfactory solution. Any suggestions?


----------



## Testudoresearch

There is some stuff on this forum that is so good I just had to grab a screenshot of it. No-one would ever believe it otherwise 



On the subject of Agrobs vs. Zoomed and Mazuri and similar highly processed products, I realized I had done a "condensed" little write up on that which is from the "Tortoise Trust Guide to Tortoises & Turtles" (4th edition) combined with some text from the new version of the "Feeding Manual". Might be helpful to quote it in full because it explains _why_ chopped fibers are problematic:

_

Provision of adequate herbivorous tortoise diets can be challenging, requiring the sourcing of a wide range of plant materials (which may suffer seasonal lack of availability) and additional supplements. Many keepers and program managers therefore seek a more convenient way of providing a satisfactory diet for their animals. A number of manufacturers have tried to address this market with pre-packaged pelleted foods. Many of these are described as â€œcomplete dietsâ€. Stated analysis of such foods indicates that with few exceptions the crude fibre content is typically substantially less than 20% and in some cases is below 12%. Most manufacturers also label their products to indicate the maximum fibre content, and fail to divulge either the average level or the minimum level, which can prove very misleading. Studies by Hatt, Clauss, et. al. (2005) suggest that if high rates of digestibility in tortoises are to be avoided, the crude fibre content on a DM basis needs to be in the order of 30 to 40%. As we noted in the example of grinding dry vegetable matter, the crude fibre content remains the same, but digestibility varies enormously according to the size of the resulting particles and also according to how much damage has been done to the protective cuticle surrounding the plant cells. For ease of extrusion, commercial manufacturers typically utilise fine particles and softer grade fibres. Donoghue and Langenberg (op. cit.) also point out that process used in extrusion and pelleting involve high temperatures that partially destroy labile vitamins. Such processes typically also degrade the protective integrity of the plant cells by damaging the waxy cuticle. It has already been noted (above) that the *more a whole plant part is chopped, ground, degraded or processed the greater the number of cells that will be immediately exposed to immediate microbial attack. *There is, therefore, a major difference in derived energy between a tortoise consuming nearly-whole plant parts and a tortoise consuming highly processed plant parts with very much more surface area available to the gut microflora. 

While it is the case that on the surface pelleted foods may appear to be an attractive means of providing dried vegetation to captive tortoises, most - as noted - fail in a number of critical respects. The development of pelleted foods that include a high proportion of very long fibres, coarse, large particles and an appropriate protein and trace-element content should not be impossible, however. Some commercial manufacturers have already moved in that direction (Pro-Alpin and Pre-Alpin Testudo). These products are unusual in that they include a much broader diversity of plant species than typical mass-produced pellet feeds, and they omit the potentially very damaging grain and maize-based derivatives included in most other commercial offerings. They also have crude fibre and protein levels that more closely approximate that of the typical wild diet. Other manufacturers and some independent smaller scale specialist suppliers are also offering a range of dried edible herbs and â€œweedsâ€ (JR Farm). Over the last few years a new mini-industry in supplying seeds, and both fresh and dry food plants to tortoise keepers has appeared, with many independent sellers of such items on sites such as Ebay. One common problem area with many of these independent suppliers, however, is the lack of adequate quality control and accurate labelling. Such products will, hopefully, continue to develop. There is room for such products, and certainly room for further developments in this field. The use of compression of a kind that results in minimal plant cell damage rather than extrusion to produce pre-packaged foods, the avoidance of high temperatures in the production process, and the inclusion of plants grown in the Mediterranean zone are some areas that should be considered. 

These products are certainly a very useful addition to the options available to today's keeper and breeder who is concerned with achieving high quality, healthy growth. The best way in which these products (and others like them) can be most effectively utilised is still very much in the early stages, however. Good results are already being reported using a combination of these dried sources (e.g. the Alpin Testudo) range in combination with a well-designed, well-balanced and healthy diet of fresh plants, combined with additional calcium supplementation and adequate UV-B lighting and provision of suitable basking temperatures. More work needs to be done on establishing the ideal blend between provision of dried plant material and fresh plant material to produce consistently healthy growth, however. It is clear that in addition to controlling the gross protein level of captive tortoise diets, and ensuring adequate levels of calcium, vitamin D3 and other bone-building essentials, the control of fibre intake and digestibility is equally important. 

It is only 20 or so years ago that many organisations and veterinarians advising on tortoise husbandry were still recommending a diet of lettuce, tomato, dog food and boiled eggs for captive tortoises, and the need for UVB was almost entirely ignored - so we have come a long way. We will only make further progress based upon a foundation of reliable observations of tortoises in the field, encompassing both behaviour and feeding patterns, accurate analyses of key dietary constituents, and a more complete understanding of their complex and highly variable temperature dependent digestive and vitamin D3 metabolisms."_


----------



## lilacdragon

Hi, guys.

To whom it may concern: Will you two alpha males please stop sparring with each other about which of you is the most insane/unbelievable/cruel tortoise-torturer in the world? I suspect that you both care deeply about your animals and have a great deal of valuable knowledge that you could share with each other. But every time I read your posts, I have an image of two huge beautiful 6ft male Green Iguanas standing broadside on to each other, dewlaps flared, eyeing each other for possible weaknesses and preparing for a crushing tail-whip. It is very distracting 



> This I do not understand. Please elaborate. So you are saying that with good temperatures, diet, hydration, and outdoor exercise and sunshine, my tortoises are going to grow up and seem to be healthy and fine, but somehow, after 50 years of health and reproduction, I am going to discover some health issue because of how they were started 50 years ago? Forgive me, but this defies any known logic, and I can think of nothing to relate this too. Unfortunately, it is likely that none of us will be around to see if this is true or not.



Tom, I will need to collect some references for my reply to this very good request. Please bear with me as I collect up what I need. As regards tortoises specifically, I don't have much data. I hope Andy will be able to indicate some good quality research we can read. 
But as a veterinarian (although now retired) I have always been very aware that much anatomy and physiology applies to all vertebrate life, so it is often perfectly okay to cautiously extrapolate when dealing with very basic principles... 
There is a growing field of human data on the effects of what seem like minor, inconsequential deficiencies early in life, to adult health. There are also disturbing associations between certain apparently harmless things, like diet and light-at-night, and later development of cancer, in mammals. I'll dig out the papers and post some links to them. 

And there are some absolutely amazing peer-reviewed papers on reptilian physiological responses to - for example - changing daylength, seasons, temperatures... So I have many un-answered questions about how years of not-quite-normal responses will affect the health of our animals. 

For example: Reproduction is well known to be controlled, in many reptiles, by the presence of a period of good nutrition (eg. good plant growth the preceding spring) followed by a cold period with little or no food. What if the ovaries receive the first part of the stimulus but not the second? What if ovulation in that species is not spontaneous, but requires the stimulus of mating? .... is it possible that eventually these ovaries will develop harmful cystic changes, follicular necrosis, ovarian cancer? Will the annual resorption of mature follicles with their high fat content cause gradual liver damage?

These are the questions I have. My actual experience is very limited indeed but over the last 20 years I have lost several adult female lizards of three very different species, apparently very healthy and well cared-for, but not bred from, with ovarian problems undiagnosed until post-mortem. And the only leopard gecko I have ever post-mortemed which did not have an unhealthy-looking fatty liver was a skinny little thing that had some sort of lizard equivalent of irritable bowel syndrome, that we never found the reason for. She never got that "healthy plump" look that everyone likes to see. But when she died, on post-mortem she had the healthiest, most beautiful liver, I realised I'd never seen a normal one before.

Best wishes
Frances


----------



## Testudoresearch

Certain parallels stand out for me from simply being involved in this for a very long time. I remember when "cat, dog and monkey chow" diets were being heavily recommended. Your tortoises grew twice as fast! You can breed them in half the time! It actually took well over 15 years before people started to wake up to what else was happening. Fatty degeneration of the liver... gout... kidney disease... MBD....unfortunately, as someone once said to me (and it stuck in my mind) "tortoises die slowly"....

The "pellet foods" were another disaster area. Again, sold to keepers as "scientifically formulated"! Some were (and still are) supposed to suit everything from a box turtle to a redfoot to a sulcata and a Russian in between..... we saw protein (DM) levels of 22%. Calcium to Phosphorus ratios of less than 2:1, poor fiber content, all kinds of additives - some of them rather strange, and which no-one had any clue as to what they might actually do in real life with a reptile. Independent tests found that some products did not even match what was on the 'contents' label. Thousands of keepers used these products, believing what was claimed. It became obvious there were huge problems - too late for some, sadly. That also took 10 years+. Even now, many products fall far short of the marketing hype. 

As with environment (including UVB), if we take our cues from nature, we are on reasonably safe ground. The further we depart from that, the further we head into unknown territory - and any "mistakes" could take years to become evident.


----------



## ulkal

lilacdragon said:


> Hi, guys.
> 
> To whom it may concern: Will you two alpha males please stop sparring with each other about which of you is the most insane/unbelievable/cruel tortoise-torturer in the world? I suspect that you both care deeply about your animals and have a great deal of valuable knowledge that you could share with each other. But every time I read your posts, I have an image of two huge beautiful 6ft male Green Iguanas standing broadside on to each other, dewlaps flared, eyeing each other for possible weaknesses and preparing for a crushing tail-whip. It is very distracting


100% agree. Let alone how much others can learn from a civilised ping-pong between knowledgable people who do not agree on certain things


----------



## Sulcata_Sandy

Sulcata_Sandy said:


> I radiographed my 20 year old WC RF today.
> 
> Guess I better call the person I got her from and ask if she's been exposed to males. [GRINNING FACE WITH SMILING EYES]
> 
> She is 11.5" and 8 lbs. I caught her nesting yesterday. Thoughts on her bone density?
> I will get my CB male imaged soon.



Apparently I popped in just in the middle of a heated diet debate. LOL

Andy? Any thoughts on this radiograph? I will image the CB male next week, prob Tuesday.


----------



## Testudoresearch

Did reply in post 142, Sandy:

"Difficult to get a totally accurate analysis with that image size/resolution, but the pelvic and limb bones appear well formed and of acceptable density. The carapace mineralization appears (to me) to be possibly a little bit on the 'light' side. It is not gross, however and may not be significant. I would not like to reach a firm conclusion from that one image. There is nothing there that I can see that suggests anything seriously wrong. The eggs appear well-calcified"

*Keratin....*

If you wish to read some really detailed, well-referenced material on what happens to keratin at various levels of humidity, there is one paper I can highly recommend. You can access it in full for free, here. 

They used horse-hoof keratin for this paper, but tortoise carapace (and beak/nail) keratin behaves in a very similar manner. The mathematics are at times quite challenging, but quite a number of things jump right out. It is worth a read as it really does show exactly what is going on when you place a tortoise in a hot, very high humidity environment. The table of references contains a number of other important papers on this topic, many of which are also relevant to chelonian carapace keratins and their responses to differing levels of hydration status.


----------



## Sulcata_Sandy

Testudoresearch said:


> Did reply in post 142, Sandy:
> 
> "Difficult to get a totally accurate analysis with that image size/resolution, but the pelvic and limb bones appear well formed and of acceptable density. The carapace mineralization appears (to me) to be possibly a little bit on the 'light' side. It is not gross, however and may not be significant. I would not like to reach a firm conclusion from that one image. There is nothing there that I can see that suggests anything seriously wrong. The eggs appear well-calcified"
> 
> *Keratin....*
> 
> If you wish to read some really detailed, well-referenced material on what happens to keratin at various levels of humidity, there is one paper I can highly recommend. You can access it in full for free, here.
> 
> They used horse-hoof keratin for this paper, but tortoise carapace (and beak/nail) keratin behaves in a very similar manner. The mathematics are at times quite challenging, but quite a number of things jump right out. It is worth a read as it really does show exactly what is going on when you place a tortoise in a hot, very high humidity environment. The table of references contains a number of other important papers on this topic, many of which are also relevant to chelonian carapace keratins and their responses to differing levels of hydration status.



Oh, thank you, Andy, I did indeed miss your reply. And I agree, tough tough to evaluate fully with this small res image, just wanted a quick peek and initial thoughts. Very appreciated. I will image my CB male this week. Would you be interested in me mailing those to you? I have to way to make a true digital image, unless I call around for having the images scanned. We still have old equipment.

And thank you for posting the link to the equine keratin paper, I am erasing that now.


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## paludarium

Testudoresearch said:


> Analysis of fecal pellets is a useful tool. You can see here just how incredibly fibrous it really is....compare with output from most captive 'pet' examples. There is an enormous difference.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One very interesting fact is that very, very little (if any) weight loss occurs during either brumation or estivation. You might _expect _tortoises to be dehydrated after, say, three months underground with surface temperatures just a few inches above them like this...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 51.2 Celsius or 124.16F.
> 
> But... they are not in the least. They remain very well hydrated and losses are near imperceptible. A testament to their excellent 'design' and total suitability to be right 'at home' in this kind of environment.



Field researches provided us important information and facts, but due to interoberver and intraoberver variations, those facts were not always truths. 

Wegehaupt's website http://www.testudo-farm.de/html/habitatsklima.html also recorded some informations about the climate in a habitat of European tortoises. Please take a look at picture at the bottom of the page, the shoes were extremely WET in the early morning, the author also wrote that "der Boden einschliesslich der bodennahe Bewuchs und somit auch die darin lebenden SchildkrÃ¶ten sind zumindest in den frÃ¼hen Morgenstunden extrem feucht. "(sorry, in German).

The fecal analysis, too. A few analyses of stool samples from some individuals showed only what some tortoises might have eaten a few weeks ago. Those stools did not represent their real diets. However, if the data were collected from hundreds of tortoises over a period of 10 years, the information would be more objective. According to a research in Romania, Long term observations on the alimentation of wild Eastern Greek Tortoises Testudo graeca ibera (Reptilia: Testudines: Testudinidae) in Dobrogea, Romania. occasional intake of animal food, i.e. carrion, was also noticed. Tortoises were observed feeding on a dead wild cat, as well as on remains of dead birds, bovines and ovines, leftovers from the prey of jackals and/or feral dogs. Overall, the carrion (and generally animal food) intake seems far less marked than in other studies, but the authors cannot exclude that this could be due to a method bias since through direct observation it is more difficult to find animals feeding upon carrion.

Stool analysis has another limit. The foods with more fibers that are hard to digest will be more easily detected in the stools. Therefore the actual percentage of the easily digestible parts like animal matters would have been underestimated. We probably have to analyse the stable isotopes of carbon and nitrogen in the carapace scutes, like the study Asynchrony between dietary and nutritional shifts during the ontogeny of green turtles (Chelonia mydas) in the Mediterranean.

I don't think the pathophysiologic processes of pyramiding are now well known, the information extrapolated from the studies for other species especially from mammals, are misleading and not reliable. I won't do that.

Erich


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## Testudoresearch

paludarium said:


> Wegehaupt's website http://www.testudo-farm.de/html/habitatsklima.html also recorded some informations about the climate in a habitat of European tortoises. Please take a look at picture at the bottom of the page, the shoes were extremely WET in the early morning, the author also wrote that "der Boden einschliesslich der bodennahe Bewuchs und somit auch die darin lebenden SchildkrÃ¶ten sind zumindest in den frÃ¼hen Morgenstunden extrem feucht. "(sorry, in German).



Yes. You get dew in the morning in some localities at some times of year. You get more of it in the coastal zone than you do further inland, typically. This proves what, precisely? It is well known. It also burns off very quickly as the sun rises. You also get it in true deserts under some climatic conditions. Everyone knows this... It is the dew point. 



paludarium said:


> The fecal analysis, too. A few analyses of stool samples from some individuals showed only what some tortoises might have eaten a few weeks ago. Those stools did not represent their real diets.



??????????

If that is what you believe then you need to tell all the biologists who have been relying on this data for decades. 



paludarium said:


> However, if the data were collected from hundreds of tortoises over a period of 10 years, the information would be more objective. According to a research in Romania, Long term observations on the alimentation of wild Eastern Greek Tortoises Testudo graeca ibera (Reptilia: Testudines: Testudinidae) in Dobrogea, Romania. occasional intake of animal food, i.e. carrion, was also noticed. Tortoises were observed feeding on a dead wild cat, as well as on remains of dead birds, bovines and ovines, leftovers from the prey of jackals and/or feral dogs. Overall, the carrion (and generally animal food) intake seems far less marked than in other studies, but the authors cannot exclude that this could be due to a method bias since through direct observation it is more difficult to find animals feeding upon carrion.



Again... this has already been discussed. Such intake is extremely limited. I have personally examined hundreds of samples over many years. I continue to do so. As already stated, if they find something, they are opportunistic and will eat it. However, there are far more efficient (and dangerous) scavengers around who get this stuff first... and if a tortoise is there, would could take that too. I have found occasional evidence... snake skin... lizard skin... beetle...this has been really quite rare and is absolutely no way a significant proportion of their normal diet. 




paludarium said:


> Stool analysis has another limit. The foods with more fibers that are hard to digest will be more easily detected in the stools. Therefore the actual percentage of the easily digestible parts like animal matters would have been underestimated.



I don't think so.



paludarium said:


> I don't think the pathophysiologic processes of pyramiding are now well known, the information extrapolated from the studies for other species especially from mammals, are misleading and not reliable.
> Erich



Explain - precisely - how you think it is "misleading". Are you, for example, claiming that chelonian keratin has completely different physical properties from other keratins? That is is not hygroscopic, for example? Or are you claiming that the bone metabolism of chelonians is unique and operates on different principles entirely from all other known animals?

Please. Tell me.


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## Yellow Turtle

For 11 pages, this looks like very hot debates.

While I accept all the theories from Andy about pyramiding, keratin, humidity, diet, etc. I can't help but wonder, is Tom's way of raising hatchlings inside humid environment brings harm effect to those hatchlings? Instead of this prolong debates, isn't advanced medical technique now enable us to monitor those hatchlings health easily? Blood samples, bone densities, internal organ imaging, aren't they sufficient enough to at least indicate if anything goes wrong with those hatchling?

Time will eventually tells what happens to those hatchlings in the future, but at least for now, I would just enjoy raising my torts and see what current technology says about those hatchlings' condition raised inside closed chambers. Since Andy and Tom are the 2 alpha males here, why don't you guys just make a bet and do those medical analysis on those torts. Losers pay for all medical fees...

Btw, Tom, can you show us all the new pictures of the earliest torts raised inside those closed chamber? I just wonder how big they are now and current condition of the scutes. I believe they are raised fully outside now, and I'd like to know whether they can maintain those perfect smooth scutes till now.


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## Yvonne G

I was thinking about this too. I know you're busy, Tom, but could you take some time to add some current pictures in the same thread where you show the pictures of the babies in their closed chambers. You did keep some of them, right?


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## Testudoresearch

There some photos on paludarian.net of T. horsfieldii that are very strange and rather worrying.

As for tests, we are happy to fund some tests, provided they are properly documented and carried out by qualified veterinarians. Another thing that would be very useful is analysis of skeletal material from deceased tortoises that could then be directly compared to identical material from healthy wild examples. We do not support and never fund any form of research that involves killing ('sacrificing' ) animals, so such would have to originate from animals that have died naturally from other causes.


I'd also like to address one more area of the bizarre and wacky pseudo-science that has infected this whole issue and which so far, has only been mentioned briefly. This is the question of alleged "dehydration".

It is important to note right at the outset that semi-arid habitat tortoises are effectively "built" to make very efficient use of available water, and their metabolism functions in a manner that requires minimal inputs. Their excretion of urates is the best example. Their structure too, is intended to guard against fluid losses in very low humidity environments. Overlapping, heavy limb scales, for example as seen in G. sulcata, G. pardalis and T. kleinmanni. Smaller ocular orbits - compare an equivalent-sized G. pardalis to a G. denticulata or K. homeana, for example...all of these features help to prevent fluid loss. All of this is basic level comparative Eco-physiology.

So... alleged dehydration....

We have heard the term "cellular dehydration" used. The â€œcellular dehydrationâ€ suggested here would seem to be impervious to improvement when the animal drinks. *Fresh water was freely available for all of the groups of Geochelone sulcata in Weisner and Ibenâ€™s experiment, for example.* An animal that is dehydrating to the point where cells are â€œcollapsedâ€ would surely be motivated to drink. This would rapidly reverse any such dehydration. Other keepers have noted the same anomaly: _â€œit appears to involve a dehydration of the animals that, for currently unknown reasons, is not compensated by the oral intake of waterâ€ (Kruger, 2008)_. The entire concept that the animal can be drinking, feeding, growing, have normal urinary output, and apparently in every other sense remain metabolically healthy while suffering from some form of medically unrecognised condition of â€œcellular dehydrationâ€ of the collagenous tissues is simply not credible when viewed from the perspective of established veterinary and physiological science. In accepted veterinary and medical literature, the term â€œcellular dehydrationâ€ is not used to describe a condition distinct from chronic dehydration, but rather to point out _the effects _of generalised dehydration on living cells. Therefore, an organism not suffering from dehydration is in no danger of suffering from cellular dehydration.

A very similar theory was advanced by Bidmon and Jennemann (2006) , who also believed that low environmental humidity was the sole cause of the â€œpyramidingâ€ effect. Again there is the suggestion that lack of a high humidity microclimate surrounding the tortoise causes some form of internal dehydration and â€œlack of pressureâ€ in the cells of the connective tissue. These authors suggest that the site of this â€œdehydrationâ€ is primarily via the clefts along the new growth â€˜ringsâ€™. This theory fails for the same reasons cited above, and completely ignores the fact that this area of new growth is well supplied by a rich flow of blood (and consequently is invariably well hydrated) via layers of epithelial cells and connective tissue rich in nerve endings (Haycroft, 1890, Albardi 2005). 

*Semi-arid habitat tortoises do not need to be kept in "damp" or "wet" environments to avoid dehydration.* This totally ignores their entire evolutionary physiology. They are adept at maintaining adequate hydration in some very seriously difficult environments. They do this through a combination of their specialized physiology, and also though behavioral means. These suggestions to the contrary by amateur keepers quite simply defy logic and defy established science. It is pseudo-science.

I have asked several people who believe in this stuff to _explain to me _ how the processes that they are referring to can possibly occur. No-one ever has.* Quite simply, how could an otherwise healthy tortoise, that has free access to drinking water, become so dehydrated that its cells would "collapse", especially in moderate levels of humidity in the 45-60% range? *


Alibardi, L. (2005). Proliferation in the Epidermis of Chelonians and Growth of the Horny Scutes J. Morph. 265: 52-69

Bidmon H.J. & Jennemann G. (2006): Hohe relative Luftfeuchtigkeit - gleich glatte Panzer: Wie lÃ¤sst sich das in der LandschildkrÃ¶tenhaltung praktikabel realisieren? - SchildkrÃ¶ten im Fokus, 3(4), Bergheim

Haycroft, J. B. (1890) Termination of Nerves in the Nuclei of the Epithelial cells of Tortoise Shell. J. Microscopical Science. (2-31): 124 pp 563-570. 

Kruger, E. (2008) Moist Root Shelters for Hatchlings. Radiata 17 (2), 14-18


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## Yellow Turtle

Well Andy, if you can fund such tests, I really hope for the sake of hobbyist here, you and Tom can work together for that.

There is really no point, amidst so many theories that contradict each others, to further debate this. A series of lab test would provide all the answers to us.

Also I point out a question last time, for environment like in my area, with 2 seasons, humidity 30-80% depends on season, and greens grow all years. No chance for hibernation nor estivation. So from the whole theories I've been reading, this should not be the suitable environment to raise any desert tortoise. So instead I should raise them indoor only and also provide artificial hibernation?


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## Testudoresearch

Yellow Turtle said:


> There is really no point, amidst so many theories that contradict each others, to further debate this. A series of lab test would provide all the answers to us.



There are two common definitions of what constitutes a "theory":

1. . A set of statements or principles devised to explain a group of facts or phenomena, especially one that has been repeatedly tested or is widely accepted and can be used to make predictions about natural phenomena.

2. An assumption based on limited information or knowledge; a conjecture.

Both are present in this discussion....



Yellow Turtle said:


> Also I point out a question last time, for environment like in my area, with 2 seasons, humidity 30-80% depends on season, and greens grow all years. No chance for hibernation nor estivation. So from the whole theories I've been reading, this should not be the suitable environment to raise any desert tortoise. So instead I should raise them indoor only and also provide artificial hibernation?



I would concentrate on keeping species that better suit your environment. I would not try to keep tropical turtles where I live (in a semi-arid habitat bordering a true desert). You will always be fighting the environment... not working with it. That is just my personal view...

It can be easier to create a humid area in a dry environment than the other way around, too....that can be very difficult. The only species I now keep are those that occur within the same bioclimatic zone that I actually live in. I used to keep many different species, but now, concentrate on just those that are best suited to the climate where I am located.


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## Yvonne G

I'm not a scientist, and I don't have a scientific mind, however, I can tell when a baby box turtle is so dehydrated that he might die soon. I have a brand new baby box turtle living in a well-planted plastic tub and there is a waterer in the habitat. The soil is kept moist because of the plants. But because the waterer is shallow so the baby doesn't drown, it evaporates before the day is out. I re-fill it every morning. If I have forgotten to re-fill the waterer, the baby is obviously dehydrated, with sunken eyes and is very light weight.

I also raise baby tortoises. This same dehydration factoid is common with them too. If I don't soak the babies every day, their eyes sink in and they are very light when you pick them up. I don't know if they are retaining their urine, and I don't wait to find out. I soak them to be sure they don't become so desiccated that they die.

In order to have the high temperatures in our indoor habitats to keep the babies alive, we have them on "slow cook." It makes good sense to soak babies every day.

So, you say, don't have the temperature so high. If you keep a baby too cool you run the risk of having it get sick. We do what we have to do.


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## Testudoresearch

Yvonne G said:


> I'm not a scientist, and I don't have a scientific mind, however, I can tell when a baby box turtle is so dehydrated that he might die soon. I have a brand new baby box turtle living in a well-planted plastic tub and there is a waterer in the habitat. The soil is kept moist because of the plants. But because the waterer is shallow so the baby doesn't drown, it evaporates before the day is out. I re-fill it every morning. If I have forgotten to re-fill the waterer, the baby is obviously dehydrated, with sunken eyes and is very light weight.
> 
> I also raise baby tortoises. This same dehydration factoid is common with them too. If I don't soak the babies every day, their eyes sink in and they are very light when you pick them up. I don't know if they are retaining their urine, and I don't wait to find out. I soak them to be sure they don't become so desiccated that they die.



What heating and lighting are you using with tortoises? What species are they? Ambient humidity in room? 

That sounds to me to be a very extreme and rapid level of dehydration. If eyes are sinking that fast, something is very wrong. I have raised many species of terrestrial tortoise (around 25, as I recall) and while I totally agree with you that care must be taken over hydration levels, if I was seeing tortoises dehydrate to the point of sunken eyes in under 24 hours - I would be very concerned indeed. Eve when rearing quite large numbers in very artificial conditions, I never saw anything as severe as that. 

Obviously, North American box turtles are not (apart from T. o. luteola) found in particularly arid habitats and they lack the protections that true arid habitat species possess that dramatically reduce fluid losses. As already mentioned, Hingeback tortoises are similar to box turtles in that regard. T. o. luteola is unusual in that peak activity occurs around 60% RH, and they become largely inactive at circa 39% RH. With T. carolina I did keep these for many years, and agree that a relatively moist environment is required, especially for juveniles.


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## mikeh

I'd like to go back to keratin mechanics and effect of moisture. Are keratin mechanics same in all species? Aren't some tropical species such as some red/yellow foots, manouria, wood turtles etc, exposed to constant moisture and high humid levels?
I also would like to ask specifically about manouria scutes, but have seen this in red foots as well. I have asked this some time back but it hasnt been fully explained. 
I have been raising two emys emys in high moisture/humid environment. (90+% humidity and moist) I have observed when removed from this environment, even slightly, or if the humidity drops to 70-80% humidity range which is still moderate, ends of their scutes noticeably swell upward within an hour or so. They remain swelled until the carapace is moistened and reintroduced back to high levels of humidity. This again takes about an hour or longer. 
What is happening there? And is this "working" of the scutes normal in long run. Should I keep them in this high humidity state, alternate humidity or slowly reduce the humidity?

Below an image of scute while moist and exposed to high humidity. They remain very smooth and flat.
View attachment 65257


And an image of the same tortoise after an hour of experiencing lower but still moderate humidity. The ends of scute noticeably raise and white/silverish lines appear between the scutes.





Insert didn't work, here it is again, with scutes flat, under moist conditions.




I am also including a picture from Google, of adult WC emys emys. I believe they belong to one of the members here. It can be seen that all their scute are "sunken". Is it possible same mechanics created this "raised" ends of the scutes rather then being sunken as many times its believed.


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## Testudoresearch

mikeh said:


> I'd like to go back to keratin mechanics and effect of moisture. Are keratin mechanics same in all species? Aren't some tropical species such as some red/yellow foots, manouria, wood turtles etc, exposed to constant moisture and high humid levels?
> I also would like to ask specifically about manouria scutes, but have seen this in red foots as well. I have asked this some time back but it hasnt been fully explained.
> I have been raising two emys emys in high moisture/humid environment. (90+% humidity and moist) I have observed when removed from this environment, even slightly, or if the humidity drops to 70-80% humidity range which is still moderate, ends of their scutes noticeably swell upward within an hour or so. They remain swelled until the carapace is moistened and reintroduced back to high levels of humidity. This again takes about an hour or longer.
> What is happening there? And is this "working" of the scutes normal in long run. Should I keep them in this high humidity state, alternate humidity or slowly reduce the humidity?



Excellent question. 

First, yes - in general terms the mechanical properties of terrestrial chelonian keratins are identical across species - however, different species do have some differences in typical scute thickness, apparently in 'hardness' and in color (of course). All are hygroscopic, for example, and all are stiffer/harder when dryer than when wet. The manner of cell proliferation is also (as far as is known) identical across species. 

Scute thickness is of itself an interesting topic. Some species do have quite thick scutes, others are thinner and more 'fragile'. Even within say, Testudo, there are quite substantial differences between Turkish-origin Testudo ibera and North African origin Testudo graeca graeca, with the former typically possessing thicker, more 'hard wearing' scutes, than the latter. Also, in the wild, natural abrasion occurs and this is rarely the case in captivity - so you can very often find CB examples of the very same species with thicker accumulated keratin scutes than a wild example of the same age. Thickness matters because a thick 'sheet' of keratin will respond differently to hydration conditions than a thin sheet, and will exert quite substantially different stresses upon any connected tissue (underlying bone, for example).

Manouria is a fascinating case, and I have personally observed the same thing you are reporting. For example, in this tortoise, where you can see a kind of "dishing" of concavity in the vertebrals, and the same rise at the edges elsewhere:







The skeletal structure of Manouria impressa is, I suspect, _particularly _vulnerable to these influences of keratin, as the bones are very thin, and are extensively fenestrated (they have gaps and holes between the boney plates, rather than being completely fused). It is logical that this provides less of a 'firm anchor' to the scutes than does a heavily built, fully fused carapace skeleton (as seen in most other genera). The fast reaction to differing levels of hydration therefore makes sense. There is "less to hold them down" in simple terms. Less resistance than you would find, in say, a T. graeca or Geochelone pardalis.
_
Is this "working of the scutes normal"?_

I don't know. They must experience changes in humidity and "wetness" in the wild, and clearly, the keratin and skeleton would respond in the same way.. but how much? This is another case where more extensive field-data might provide some definitive answers.

Unfortunately, a lot of field-workers just don't bother (for various reasons) to collect the kind of data that would be of most use to those of us involved in captive maintenance. 

Thanks for highlighting this species. Fascinating! It is a wonderful example of humidity-induced dimensional changes in keratin in the chelonia.


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## paludarium

Testudoresearch said:


> Over-feeding with _highly digestible_ foods that lack long fibers on the kind of scale seen above are major problem areas when using artificial diets. Dietary fiber content achieved in these pens is 35-40%. Many captive diets are 12% or less, and even the best of them rarely exceeds 20%. Even then, fiber length is much shorter (due to production methods). More energy is extracted from these chopped, short fibers, prompting more rapid growth... with the consequent problems that brings. Energy release from very long fibers is much slower and more restricted. Another example of "more is not always better".



I don't think the following researches supported the concept that tortoises must be restricted to high-fiber diets. 

In the study Body Size Development of Captive and Free-Ranging Leopard Tortoises (Geochelone pardalis), the leopard tortoises were kept in enclosures with a natural vegetation of grasses and small shrubs with a regular supplement of a variety of vegetables (tomato, carrot, bell pepper, zucchini, cucumber and pumpkin), fruits (melon, papaya, grapes, apple, pear, berries, banana and cactus fruits), fresh lucerne (Medicago sativa), fresh grasses, browse (Ziziphus spina-christis), flowers and grass hay ad libitum. Although the authors noted in the introduction that a growth rate exceeding that of natural populations was suspected to occur in many captive and pet tortoises, with potential pathological consequences such as obesity, high mortality, gastrointestinal illnesses, renal diseases, pyramiding, fibrous osteodystrophy or metabolic bone disease. However, the authors wrote down in the discussion that *whether faster growth rates were actually linked to health problems could, so far, only be speculated upon.* Although there appeared to be a consensus in this respect in the reptile literature, *experimental evidence was lacking*. Therefore the authors could only conclude that although experimental evidence for a negative effect of fast growth on health of tortoises or reptiles was lacking, these observations suggested that in order to mimic conditions in the wild, feeding regimes in captivity should be restricted.

In the study Nutritional Quality of Natural Foods of juvenile Desert Tortoises (Gopherus agassizii): Energy, Nitrogen, and Fiber Digestibility the authors found that* tortoises lost mass and shell volume when eating grasses* but gained mass and volume when eating forbs. This was partly a result of the lower availability of nutrients in dry grasses. However, *voluntary intake rates for grasses were far lower than rates for forbs.* That means the young tortoises did not like diets higher in fiber like grasses and they consequently lost their body weight after eating grasses. Why would a healthy tortoise lose its weight?

In the american study Food Habits and Selective Foraging by the Texas Tortoise (Gopherus berlandieri), the Male and female tortoise fecal samples had 2.12% and 6.83% animal fragments, respectively. However, the juvenile tortoises had 9.4% animal fragments. The dietary differences between adult and juvenile tortoises were significant. In another research conducted in Algeria Food choice of an Algerian population of the spurthighed tortoise, Testudo graeca, the authors found the undermined invertebrates in 0.36%, 3.10% and 7.21% in the stool fragments of male, female and juvenile tortoises, respectively. The authors wrote that invertebrates were consumed occasionally, especially by juveniles. *Juveniles probably ate invertebrates of their high protein contents, which may help juvenile grow. The presence of invertebrates in diets of herbivorous tortoises was a widespread occurrence.* And in agreement with their study, juveniles of other terrestrial and freshwater chelonians were more carnivorous than their adults.

Based upon the above facts and evidence, I would not come to a conclusion that the tortoises should refrain form eating animal matters. Instead I would focus on when can a juvenile tortoise eat animal matters and how many of them.

Erich


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## FLINTUS

FLINTUS said:


> I am curious by saying it is the same with Kinixys. I have only seen pictures of 3 properly pyramided kinixys species. A lobatsiana, a homeana which went very white and a nogueyi-the latter was thought of as a Russian. They seem to stay smooth even with poor care, but I would be interested to see a cross section of a smooth, captive one. I have seen a few slightly raised scutes on others, but most people would still interpret it as 'smooth'. They also seem to grow differently to other species. With my reds, and other species I have observed, you have clear white growth lines in periods of fast growth. With my erosa, the scutes kind of move apart to form a small depression which is later filled in with new growth which looks the same as the old. I will try and get some pics when I get back on Monday.


Camera was broken but Andy, any opinion on this? Since you were talking about how the scutes vary so much for every species.


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## Yellow Turtle

Testudoresearch said:


> I would concentrate on keeping species that better suit your environment. I would not try to keep tropical turtles where I live (in a semi-arid habitat bordering a true desert). You will always be fighting the environment... not working with it. That is just my personal view...
> 
> It can be easier to create a humid area in a dry environment than the other way around, too....that can be very difficult. The only species I now keep are those that occur within the same bioclimatic zone that I actually live in. I used to keep many different species, but now, concentrate on just those that are best suited to the climate where I am located.



I will check on this. So far I've know 1 hobbyist who successfully breeds hermanni tortoise with our climate. Also I was told by 1 of senior member here that hermanni would match our environment pretty good compares to others.


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## Testudoresearch

paludarium said:


> I don't think the following researches supported the concept that tortoises must be restricted to high-fiber diets.
> 
> .....
> Based upon the above facts and evidence, I would not come to a conclusion that the tortoises should refrain form eating animal matters. Instead I would focus on when can a juvenile tortoise eat animal matters and how many of them.
> 
> Erich



I would suggest that rather than try to find extremely obscure pieces of research that support opinions you already hold, and that you consistently misinterpret anyway (evidently not even having read anything except the abstract), start with some of the work on chelonian nutrition by acknowledged specialists like Susan Donoghue. Her contribution to Douglas Mader's "Reptile Medicine & Surgery" is classic, and excellent. If you want to understand this subject, there is no better place to start.




FLINTUS said:


> FLINTUS said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am curious by saying it is the same with Kinixys. I have only seen pictures of 3 properly pyramided kinixys species. A lobatsiana, a homeana which went very white and a nogueyi-the latter was thought of as a Russian. They seem to stay smooth even with poor care, but I would be interested to see a cross section of a smooth, captive one. I have seen a few slightly raised scutes on others, but most people would still interpret it as 'smooth'. They also seem to grow differently to other species. With my reds, and other species I have observed, you have clear white growth lines in periods of fast growth. With my erosa, the scutes kind of move apart to form a small depression which is later filled in with new growth which looks the same as the old. I will try and get some pics when I get back on Monday.
> 
> 
> 
> Camera was broken but Andy, any opinion on this? Since you were talking about how the scutes vary so much for every species.
Click to expand...


A few examples for people who may not be familiar with these:





















There are certain visual similarities with M. impressa on the face of it.. similar scutes, and - you also see that 'dip' or concavity in some. I have a couple of Kinixys skeletons on loan to someone, and will try to get some photos of them in the next couple of weeks. They are not fenestrated, however, but rather fused (apart from the rear section, obviously!). Flintus, I do have some photos of 'pyramided' Kinixys, but I'll have to dig them out and scan them. They are still on 35mm transparencies. You will see many 'convergent' features between species that occupy similar habitats, of course... moist forest vs. desert, for example, simply because those features are advantageous in those habitats. Also many species are trying to "balance" function with camouflage and other factors such as thermoregulation or the prevention of dehydration. The latter is critical to arid habitat species, but rarely a pressing matter for a tortoise from a moist rainforest.


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## Sulcata_Sandy

I have a juvenile G. carbonaria I acquired in very poor condition: Severely dehydrated, disturbingly light, soft plastron, and dished vertebral scutes. I've had her several months now, and other than being very shy, she's gaining weight and thriving.

Would dehydration in this sp. cause inverted scutes? And with proper environment/diet, do you suspect her scutes will become normal in shape, or will they remain dished from that growth ring and normal after?



Photo taken a week after receiving her. Unfortunately, it really does not depict how dished her scutes are. They are not too severe, but definitely abnormal. She is also very stunted for her alleged age of 2 years. I argue she is much younger, but the previous owner was quite sure of the timing he obtained her.


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## Testudoresearch

I think it is important we separate two distinct things. 

Dehydration, which refers to the state of the entire animal, where an excessive loss of body fluids occurs, exceeding the amount taken in...

and

External over-drying, which refers to localised conditions in the epidermis and which can be entirely unrelated to the general state of hydration.

It is this latter that affects the scutes. If the underlying bone is suffering from any form of MBD, or lack of calcium or D3 ("soft shell syndrome"), then it will deform far more readily than a healthier, well formed skeleton. That tortoise looks to me to have had periods of quite rapid growth, and if the husbandry was very poor, I would think it highly likely some MBD exists.

I am sure in your capable hands, with a good environment and nutrition, it should improve substantially.


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## FLINTUS

Testudoresearch said:


> paludarium said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think the following researches supported the concept that tortoises must be restricted to high-fiber diets.
> 
> .....
> Based upon the above facts and evidence, I would not come to a conclusion that the tortoises should refrain form eating animal matters. Instead I would focus on when can a juvenile tortoise eat animal matters and how many of them.
> 
> Erich
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I would suggest that rather than try to find extremely obscure pieces of research that support opinions you already hold, and that you consistently misinterpret anyway (evidently not even having read anything except the abstract), start with some of the work on chelonian nutrition by acknowledged specialists like Susan Donoghue. Her contribution to Douglas Mader's "Reptile Medicine & Surgery" is classic, and excellent. If you want to understand this subject, there is no better place to start.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FLINTUS said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FLINTUS said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am curious by saying it is the same with Kinixys. I have only seen pictures of 3 properly pyramided kinixys species. A lobatsiana, a homeana which went very white and a nogueyi-the latter was thought of as a Russian. They seem to stay smooth even with poor care, but I would be interested to see a cross section of a smooth, captive one. I have seen a few slightly raised scutes on others, but most people would still interpret it as 'smooth'. They also seem to grow differently to other species. With my reds, and other species I have observed, you have clear white growth lines in periods of fast growth. With my erosa, the scutes kind of move apart to form a small depression which is later filled in with new growth which looks the same as the old. I will try and get some pics when I get back on Monday.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Camera was broken but Andy, any opinion on this? Since you were talking about how the scutes vary so much for every species.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> A few examples for people who may not be familiar with these:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There are certain visual similarities with M. impressa on the face of it.. similar scutes, and - you also see that 'dip' or concavity in some. I have a couple of Kinixys skeletons on loan to someone, and will try to get some photos of them in the next couple of weeks. They are not fenestrated, however, but rather fused (apart from the rear section, obviously!). Flintus, I do have some photos of 'pyramided' Kinixys, but I'll have to dig them out and scan them. They are still on 35mm transparencies. You will see many 'convergent' features between species that occupy similar habitats, of course... moist forest vs. desert, for example, simply because those features are advantageous in those habitats. Also many species are trying to "balance" function with camouflage and other factors such as thermoregulation or the prevention of dehydration. The latter is critical to arid habitat species, but rarely a pressing matter for a tortoise from a moist rainforest.
Click to expand...



Ah, yes it definitely gives a 'fusing' look. Oak(21 cm SCL male, LTC for approaching 4 years or so, has lived OUTSIDE a lot at both his previous owner in Scotland and here, they are very cold tolerant) is probably the best example I have seen recently for this. He has both the 'broken' look of #1 and the 'gap filling' of #3. It is always more obvious after animal matter has been fed but no surprise there as it creates faster growth. As I said, camera is broken but I will try and get some pics with my iphone-but it might not give a clear image.


Also, what species is that baby at the bottom? It looks homeana but I can't remember you ever doing an article on homeana alone, so if not is that another picture of Ashley Woods' erosa hatchlings? Any chance of some newer pics of them as they grew up as there are very few captive successful breeding and incubation of them outside their home range.


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## paludarium

Testudoresearch said:


> If you adopt a diet (for a herbivorous tortoise) that offers:
> 
> a) High fiber (aim for >30%)
> b) High calcium, low phosphorus (>5:1 minimum, preferably >8:1)
> b) Wet basis protein levels in the 4-5% range (DM circa 9%)
> c) Avoids highly fermentable carbohydrates/starches
> 
> and
> 
> d) Provide adequate UVB
> e) A suitable thermal environment
> f) Adequate space and exercise and avoid overfeeding
> 
> .... you will, generally, be absolutely fine.



In his book Tortoises (Complete Herp Care) E.J. Pirog also points out that "many experienced keepers suggest limiting protein by feeding a high-fiber/low-protein diet. Inexperienced keepers who follow this advice commenly end up with a malformed tortoises or a tortoise that is not growing properly, because protein is extremely important for proper growth, development and...". Obviously I am not a loner on the issue of protein.

Do tortoises need high-calcium diets to prevent pyramiding? I don't think the following researches back up that theory.

In the study Calcium and phosphorus supplementation decreases growth, but does not induce pyramiding, in young red-eared sliders (Trachemys scripta elegans), the author found that in red-eared sliders shell pyramiding could not be induced in young turtles by supplementation with dietary Ca and/or P at levels between 1.16â€“2.95% Ca and 0.92â€“2.56% P, but that supplementation with Ca alone at 2.24% was detrimental to normal growth and development in young red-eared sliders. Pyramiding was not induced in any group during this study, with all turtles having shells of normal shape and appearance. Ok, I know that a red-eared slider is by no means a tortoise...

In the study Influence of the calcium content of the diet offered to leopard tortoises (Geochelone pardalis), the authors found no shell distortion, including pyramidal doming even in the group 1 (without calcium supplement) and group 2 (with the calcium supplement at the recommended dose). Pyramiding was one issue, health problem was quite another. In addition, the authors also noted that the calcium supplementation of group 3 (three times the recommended calcium supplementation) and group 4 (nine times the recommended calcium supplementation) was shown to have been excessive, as metastatic calcifications were observed. However, the tortoises in the study were offered a basic diet, relatively poor in calcium, consisting of a mixture of chopped vegetables such as carrots, iceberg lettuce, cucumber, sweet peppers, tomatoes and hay. Besides, each group received the same quantity of a supplement containing vitamins and minerals(with phosphorus). Unfortunately the authors did not show us the exact rations of Ca to P in the diets of all groups. However, most of the food items were not rich in calcium but phosphorus, and I speculated that the Ca to P might have been even less 1 in the group 2. 

In the study Influence of different dietary calcium levels on the digestibility of Ca, Mg and P in Hermann's tortoises (Testudo hermanni) the authors found that the relative difference between the digestibility of oraganic matters between diet I and diet II was not significant. However the authors suggested that it might be prudent to feed a lower yet adequate level of dietary Ca, because higher levels might risk the pathologic accumulation of calcium somewhere in the animal.

Indeed I did not find any evidence that a healthy tortoise really needed Ca to P >5:1 minimum and preferably >8:1.

Erich


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## Testudoresearch

paludarium said:


> Testudoresearch said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you adopt a diet (for a herbivorous tortoise) that offers:
> 
> a) High fiber (aim for >30%)
> b) High calcium, low phosphorus (>5:1 minimum, preferably >8:1)
> b) Wet basis protein levels in the 4-5% range (DM circa 9%)
> c) Avoids highly fermentable carbohydrates/starches
> 
> and
> 
> d) Provide adequate UVB
> e) A suitable thermal environment
> f) Adequate space and exercise and avoid overfeeding
> 
> .... you will, generally, be absolutely fine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In his book Tortoises (Complete Herp Care) E.J. Pirog also points out that "many experienced keepers suggest limiting protein by feeding a high-fiber/low-protein diet. Inexperienced keepers who follow this advice commenly end up with a malformed tortoises or a tortoise that is not growing properly, because protein is extremely important for proper growth, development and...". Obviously I am not a loner on the issue of protein.
Click to expand...


Oh, please...

Enough. I have already suggested a very well regarded introduction to chelonian diets and nutrition you should read (and preferably try to understand) first before inventing more any more "way out" scenarios and before citing yet more references you have not even read and understood adequately. 

You are adding nothing of any value to this debate whatsoever. No-one is suggesting (or ever has) that protein is not of importance. There are three thresholds: too low, within range, and excessive. The consequences of excessive amounts are well documented: gout, renal damage, excess growth typically with consequential MBD. Most arid habitat tortoises have highly efficient digestive systems (microbial fermentation based) that are capable of extracting very adequate nutrition from what are (in mammalian terms) "poor quality" diets. Goats are a valid comparison. No-one has _ever _suggested "depriving" tortoises of levels that they perfectly obviously do extremely well on.... we have a lot of data on these levels. You have repeatedly made assertions that have no factual basis _whatever._

If you wish to make any relevant or intelligent comments I will be pleased to respond to them. I am far too busy to waste time debating pure nonsense with you, however.




FLINTUS said:


> Also, what species is that baby at the bottom? It looks homeana but I can't remember you ever doing an article on homeana alone, so if not is that another picture of Ashley Woods' erosa hatchlings? Any chance of some newer pics of them as they grew up as there are very few captive successful breeding and incubation of them outside their home range.



Captive-bred (UK) Kinixys erosa, though not one of Ashley's....

As I recall, I took that photo at about 8-10 weeks.


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## Testudoresearch

For anyone who is becoming confused by the mass of spurious and misinterpreted arguments on protein (above), it is helpful to go right back to basics. There are some incontrovertible physiological and ecological *facts* that determine tortoise diets.

1. A tortoisesâ€™ kidney structure is much more primitive than that of a mammal. The kidneys themselves are elongated and lobed, and are flattened against the carapace wall. In reptiles there are very few nephrons present compared to approximately a million nephrons in a typical mammal. Tortoises cannot concentrate urine in the same way that mammals can (they lack an organ known as the â€˜loop of Henleâ€™), so they cannot eliminate dissolved metabolic wastes such as ammonia and urea without losing a considerable volume of water. This is not so important to aquatic or rain forest species, _but is a critical limiting factor to desert and arid habitat tortoises._ Wastes from arid habitat species are normally excreted in the form of uric acid and urate salts. Aquatic and semi-aquatic turtles have free access to water, so are able to produce ammonia instead. The relationship between the proportions of ammonia to uric acid generated by individual species closely mirrors the environments they come from. As habitats become moister, the shift from water-conserving uric acid elimination to water-intensive ammonia elimination is quite marked. 

2. The dietary shift from higher protein to lower protein intakes also reflects environmental constraints, particularly free water availability. So, you find omnivorous and carnivorous species in habitats where water is relatively abundant, and herbivorous species in habitats where water is scarce. This is not mere chance or coincidence. It is a absolute constraint imposed by the fact that processing high protein intakes requires access to significant quantities of free water. Alligators and crocodiles have no problem with this, because they have plenty of water available. A desert tortoise does not, and consequently is not equipped to deal with it. Their entire physiology and biology has developed to deal with a lower protein intake that requires minimal amounts of water availability. Try to think of a carnivorous desert tortoise....

3. Urine pH is also a very useful indicator of whether protein intakes are about right, or too high. We do not have to guess at this. The pH of the urine of healthy tortoises fed on herbivorous diets is typically alkaline, while the urine pH in tortoises with a high protein intakes becomes acidic - a state also associated with renal disease in these species. Uric acid crystals are also present at high concentrations in species fed on elevated protein intakes. This is also an extremely unhealthy condition. Again, this is objective data. Measurable and repeatable. 

This is a simplified explanation, but nonetheless it needs to be taken into account whenever claims are being made that are inconsistent with this key area of chelonian physiology. These 'rules' do not just become irrelevant, or find themselves suspended in some way.... the renal system of tortoises is what it is, and they cannot easily be over-ridden. This is why extreme skepticism needs to be exercised when people make claims to the contrary or which apparently conflict with these basic 'rules'. 

If you feed a high protein diet to a species that is ill-equipped to deal with it, _and _you maintain a very good state of general hydration, you _might_ just be able to avoid _some _of the consequences (gout, for example). You will not avoid them all, however. Massively accelerated growth, for example. 

My position on this is very clear. I believe we should aim for diets that are safe in both theory and in practice, and which it can be demonstrated are capable of sustaining healthy growth over multiple generations.


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## FLINTUS

Testudoresearch said:


> FLINTUS said:
> 
> 
> 
> Also, what species is that baby at the bottom? It looks homeana but I can't remember you ever doing an article on homeana alone, so if not is that another picture of Ashley Woods' erosa hatchlings? Any chance of some newer pics of them as they grew up as there are very few captive successful breeding and incubation of them outside their home range.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Captive-bred (UK) Kinixys erosa, though not one of Ashley's....
> 
> As I recall, I took that photo at about 8-10 weeks.
Click to expand...



Did you breed them then? Or do you have contact details of who did? Sorry but CB kinixys erosa are so rare, I thought Ashley was the only person to have bred them here.


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## Testudoresearch

FLINTUS said:


> Did you breed them then? Or do you have contact details of who did? Sorry but CB kinixys erosa are so rare, I thought Ashley was the only person to have bred them here.



That particular one was hatched by my old friend John Dickson when he was curator of reptiles at Bristol Zoo many years ago. There have been a few others too.

Certainly not a common event, but it has been done a few times. I do have incubation data for that one, incidentally. It was incubated in a moist 'jar' at around 80% RH at roughly 31C on vermiculite (notes on slide). As with many reputedly 'difficult' species, much depends on having a healthy, truly compatible pair in the first place. If you manage that, you are 90% of the way there, in my experience.


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## Testudoresearch

FLINTUS said:


> I am curious by saying it is the same with Kinixys. I have only seen pictures of 3 properly pyramided kinixys species




A couple for your collection.











Prime examples, at that...


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## FLINTUS

Thanks for that. Always good to have more information on incubation for these.
Those are really heavily pyramided, although it still does seem they are harder to get pyramiding signs for MBD compared to other species. In fact, those guys are so pyramided it is hard to tell the species? Not homeana or erosa and looks too patterned and orange for nogueyi, too high for spekii, so I might guess at zombensis or Madagascan?


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## Testudoresearch

FLINTUS said:


> In fact, those guys are so pyramided it is hard to tell the species? Not homeana or erosa and looks too patterned and orange for nogueyi, too high for spekii, so I might guess at zombensis or Madagascan?



Kinixys belliana belliana in Kwa-Zulu Natal, South Africa. Wild caught as small juvenile, then raised in captivity. Unfortunately on a diet of dog food and fruit, with some use of basking lamp (non-UVB). 

Just shows... if you try hard enough, you can even mess up tortoises despite living in their natural habitat.....


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## FLINTUS

They're really colorful for belliana, but then again as you said they were raised really badly by the looks of it. Surely it would've been better to keep them outside due to the climate there?
Actually, speaking of climate, I was reading something from some South African reptile owners the other day advising someone to hibernate her hingeback-didn't say which species- as this is what they do. Now I know it has been suspected that the S.African(and from Botswana and Namibia I believe) brumate during winter, but as far as I know there have been no actual studies of hibernation of them-at least ones published in books or on the web.


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## paludarium

Testudoresearch said:


> The problem is that you can have what appear to be very smooth tortoises externally, but which internally, have very poor bone mineral density - with fibrous lesions and poor mass. So, establishing the condition of bones generated under various husbandry regimes is absolutely critical. Yet, it is rarely done.
> 
> It is intriguing that so many keepers hold totally contradictory views on these matters. On the one hand, we have people who say that Leopard and Sulcata tortoises need this super high humidity regime, but Testudo do not... and then other keepers who enthusiastically argue the exact opposite. What I think many miss is that in the paper by Weisner and Iben (cited extensively by Richard Fife), they did _not _limit their argument to G. sulcata, but claimed it affected multiple species: "Many species of tortoises live most of their lives hidden either in caves (e.g. Testudo horsfieldii, Gopherus sp.) or on the ground surrounded by high humidity even during arid conditionsâ€.
> 
> Unfortunately, this is plain wrong. It is useful they included Gopherus, because we have superb microclimate data for this species, including burrow humidity throughout the year. In the most detailed and comprehensive study yet carried out on Desert tortoise burrows in Nevada, Bulova (2002) established accurate environmental data for more than 70 individual burrows over an extended period and recorded burrow relative humidity levels ranging from 6.1 to 44.5%, compared to surface relative humidity levels of 4.1 to 32.2%. Other data, from other researchers in various localities for these species totally confirms this. This data _conclusively _destroys the argument that these tortoises experience sustained levels of RH above 80% in nature (the authors of that paper actually recommend provision of RH up to 100%!!)
> 
> There is no doubt, however, that humidity affects tortoises, and can influence the way in which a carapace develops. This is where physiology and ecology collide, and where the answers are to be found.



The paper by Weisner and Iben was neither a field research nor a retrospective review, it was indeed a prospective study or a controlled trial. I agreed with Dr. Sue Donahue that further work is needed to replicate these results, determine mineral balance (acid-base balance) under dry and humid conditions, and examine the carapacial tissue histologically. Richard Fife was one of the first but not the only keeper who replicated the results. It has been 10 years since Weisner and Iben published their study, thousands of tortoises have been raising with high humidity regime, how could we have missed any study regarding its adverse outcome. Trying to explain why and how is quite another issue.


Field researches unveiled some facts and provided us some information, but the data collected from the field have to be interpreted cautiously. 

Apparently you missed or ignored some important information in the study How temperature, humidity, and burrow selection affect evaporative water loss in desert tortoises. According to Bulova, the subjects in the study were 28 adult individuals (body mass > 1600 g) and the 74 burrows selected were for the adult tortoises. The adult tortoises were not as vulnerable as the juveniles to dehydration, and they used different burrows in the wild. In the study Characteristics of Burrows Used by Juvenile and Neonate Desert Tortoises (Gopherus agassizii) during Hibernation the author observed that burrows used by juveniles were significant larger thant neonate burrows, and burrow height and width were both significant correlated with tortoises size.

The author did not measure microclimate of occupied burrows but the unoccupied burrows, because the presence of a tortoises might change burrow humidity. So there were no tortoises inside when she measured the 74 individual burrows, which showed relative humidity(RH) levels ranging from 6.1-44.5%. By the way, the RH levels were measured between 1000-1200 h from July to September in 1993, by no means throughout the year! I would never expect the RH to be high near to noon with the ambient temperature 33.5-46.0 degree celcius, and those data were not representative of humidity variations over 24 hr in the burrows. The author literally measured 4 burrows for 24 hr from 20 July 1100 hr to 1100 hr 21 July in 1993, and the range of RH fluctuated by 7.2-15.5%. With the sample size of 4 burrows and the measurement of RH for only 1 day, were those information representative of the that habitat? I don't think so. The author also observed that the tortoises passed burrows before entering others and entered and subsequently left burrows. Both observations suggested that not all burrows were suitable for use by a given tortoise at a given time. Unfortunately we did not know whether the tortoises actually utilized them or not, not to mention that the author did not show us the real humidity variations in the burrows where the tortoises indeed stayed overnight. 

With all the limitations in her study, I would only come to a conclusion that between 1000-1200 h humidity was significant higher and temperature lower inside burrows than on the surface.

Erich


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## Testudoresearch

paludarium said:


> The paper by Weisner and Iben was neither a field research nor a retrospective review, it was indeed a prospective study or a controlled trial.



Simple question.

Do you find the methodology used in that study valid and acceptable?

Second question.

Define:

Low humidity (typical range)
High humidity (typical range)



paludarium said:


> Apparently you missed or ignored some important information in the study How temperature, humidity, and burrow selection affect evaporative water loss in desert tortoises. According to Bulova, the subjects in the study were 28 adult individuals (body mass > 1600 g) and the 74 burrows selected were for the adult tortoises. The adult tortoises were not as vulnerable as the juveniles to dehydration, and they used different burrows in the wild. In the study Characteristics of Burrows Used by Juvenile and Neonate Desert Tortoises (Gopherus agassizii) during Hibernation the author observed that burrows used by juveniles were significant larger thant neonate burrows, and burrow height and width were both significant correlated with tortoises size.



I did not miss anything... I am extremely familiar with the paper. I have also measured burrows and scrapes in multiple locations, including Arizona with Gopherus, and throughout the Mediterranean. The suggestion - if that is what you really are trying to suggest - that the RH in these burrows approaches 100% on a regular or routine basis is absolutely ridiculous. *It simply does not happen like that. * I have taken (using data loggers) over* 25,000 measurements *in such burrows to date over a continuous 4 year period at all times of year, and the typical range is 40-60%. You only have to visit these habitats to know why this is the case, and why suggestions of 80, 90 or 100% are just so plain silly and totally impossible it should not even be up for discussion. 

FYI, we measured active, occupied burrows in Morocco as far back as 1996 and published the results(1). The results:

"burrow humidity rarely exceeded 60% and was typically 50% or less compared to external ambient air humidity levels of approximately 20%.... Burrow humidity was often sustained below 45% for extended periods during peak periods of tortoise activity and growth in the Spring period, and reduced to 40% or less in June, July and August....Shallow tortoise scrapes possessed marginally higher relative humidities than the prevailing ambient conditions, but not by much, typically by less than 5% over ambient (scrapes are far less efficient at sustaining a stable temperature and higher localised humidity than are true burrows). It is also necessary to point out that tortoises using such scrapes tend to only partly bury themselves, primarily covering the front limbs and head, leaving the vast majority of the carapace fully exposed and therefore entirely subject to the prevailing ambient conditions of temperature and humidity"
*
Fact. Based on real measurements. Not guesswork and speculation. *

One of the burrows in Morocco:






Tortoise burrow in Florida also studied and measured:






How much time have you personally spent in arid and semi-arid habitats? Where is your data? Photos? Evidence that supports the claims you make? Not second-hand or anecdotal. YOUR data - please? 


(1) Highfield, A. C. and Bayley, J. R (1996) Observations on ecological changes threatening a population of Testudo graeca graeca in the Souss Valley, southern Morocco. Chel. Cons. Biol. 2(1):36-42


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## tortadise

Testudoresearch said:


> FLINTUS said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am curious by saying it is the same with Kinixys. I have only seen pictures of 3 properly pyramided kinixys species
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A couple for your collection.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Prime examples, at that...
Click to expand...




Very nice specimen. I have read some on these belliana in those regions(Zululand/Swaziland) Once were labeled belliana zulensis. But phylogenic analysis kept them as Belliana Belliana. Flintus. Your thinking of the Natals and the Belliana in those regions of South East Africa. Some lobatse too. They react similar to Pyxis. Hibernate or more along the lines of aestiviate during extreme seasons of dryness.


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## Yvonne G

Just a note from one of the moderators to a fairly new member here on the Forum. We allow everyone to have their opinion here on the Forum. If you don't agree with that opinion, or in YOUR opinion, the other guy has posted something that he hasn't read and understood, we still allow him to say it anyway. We don't make fun of posts made by others and we don't talk down to them. I must say that even after your rude remarks, the person they were said to responded in a polite manner. Speaks well for him, but not so well for you.

Please don't sling mud. Keep it polite.


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## Testudoresearch

There is a fundamental difference between facts and opinions.

Anyone can have an opinion. No problem with that.

Misrepresenting and distorting established facts, however, is another thing entirely.


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## Yvonne G

That's fine, but in a debate, you come back with your proof as to why the debated comment is a misrepresentation, you don't talk down to him or be rude.


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## Testudoresearch

Yvonne G said:


> That's fine, but in a debate, you come back with your proof as to why the debated comment is a misrepresentation, you don't talk down to him or be rude.



I have responded with real proof. Repeatedly. It is consistently disregarded and ignored.

"The suggestion - if that is what you really are trying to suggest - that the RH in these burrows approaches 100% on a regular or routine basis is absolutely ridiculous. It simply does not happen like that. I have taken (using data loggers) over 25,000 measurements in such burrows to date over a continuous 4 year period at all times of year, and the typical range is 40-60%. You only have to visit these habitats to know why this is the case, and why suggestions of 80, 90 or 100% are just so plain silly and totally impossible it should not even be up for discussion.

FYI, we measured active, occupied burrows in Morocco as far back as 1996 and published the results(1). The results:

"burrow humidity rarely exceeded 60% and was typically 50% or less compared to external ambient air humidity levels of approximately 20%.... Burrow humidity was often sustained below 45% for extended periods during peak periods of tortoise activity and growth in the Spring period, and reduced to 40% or less in June, July and August....Shallow tortoise scrapes possessed marginally higher relative humidities than the prevailing ambient conditions, but not by much, typically by less than 5% over ambient (scrapes are far less efficient at sustaining a stable temperature and higher localised humidity than are true burrows). It is also necessary to point out that tortoises using such scrapes tend to only partly bury themselves, primarily covering the front limbs and head, leaving the vast majority of the carapace fully exposed and therefore entirely subject to the prevailing ambient conditions of temperature and humidity"

Fact. Based on real measurements. Not guesswork and speculation."


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## lilacdragon

lilacdragon said:


> Tom wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> This I do not understand. Please elaborate. So you are saying that with good temperatures, diet, hydration, and outdoor exercise and sunshine, my tortoises are going to grow up and seem to be healthy and fine, but somehow, after 50 years of health and reproduction, I am going to discover some health issue because of how they were started 50 years ago? Forgive me, but this defies any known logic, and I can think of nothing to relate this too. Unfortunately, it is likely that none of us will be around to see if this is true or not.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tom, I will need to collect some references for my reply to this very good request. Please bear with me as I collect up what I need. As regards tortoises specifically, I don't have much data. I hope Andy will be able to indicate some good quality research we can read.
> But as a veterinarian (although now retired) I have always been very aware that much anatomy and physiology applies to all vertebrate life, so it is often perfectly okay to cautiously extrapolate when dealing with very basic principles...
> There is a growing field of human data on the effects of what seem like minor, inconsequential deficiencies early in life, to adult health. There are also disturbing associations between certain apparently harmless things, like diet and light-at-night, and later development of cancer, in mammals. I'll dig out the papers and post some links to them.
Click to expand...


Hi, guys.
I'm sorry that I've taken so long to get back to this - and the debate has moved on a lot over the holiday period - but if anyone's still interested in how apparently minor deficiences or stress in early life can affect health in adulthood, then I have a couple of interesting references here... These are not referring to tortoises, or even reptiles, however, so if anyone knows of any relevant studies on reptiles I would very much like to hear of them!

What seems to happen is that as an animal develops, there are "windows of opportunity" in which immature organs respond to very specific inputs - either biochemical (eg. nutrients or hormones) or physical (eg. sounds or sights) - for optimal development and "normal" responses to occur later in life. 
The concept has been given the name of "fetal programming". 

Here are three examples: 

1. HyppÃ¶nen, E. (2010). Vitamin D and increasing incidence of type 1 diabetesâ€”evidence for an association?. Diabetes, Obesity and Metabolism, 12(9), 737-743.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1463-1326.2010.01211.x/pdf
This reviews the evidence for vitamin D deficiency in early life predisposing human children to the development of the auto-immune type of diabetes. The authors describe the development of diabetes in genetically modified mice born to vitamin D- deficient dams, in one experiment. 


> NOD mice that were vitamin D deficient in utero and in early life (up to day 100) had earlier disease onset and higher incidence of diabetes compared with controls......... The more aggressive disease pattern in the vitamin D deficient group continued after restoration of normal vitamin D status and metabolism, suggesting that early life influences may contribute to the disease progression in the NOD mouse.



2. Crozier, S. R., Harvey, N. C., Inskip, H. M., Godfrey, K. M., Cooper, C., & Robinson, S. M. (2012). Maternal vitamin D status in pregnancy is associated with adiposity in the offspring: findings from the Southampton Women's Survey. The American journal of clinical nutrition, 96(1), 57-63.
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/96/1/57.full.pdf+html
In this study, children born to mothers who had low vitamin D levels during their pregnancy (which would presumably mean that as fetuses, they also had low vitamin D status) had a higher proportion of body fat at 6 years of age. 


> One interpretation of our data is that there are programmed effects on the fetus that arise from maternal vitamin D insufficiency that remain with the individual and that may predispose him or her to gain excess body fat in later childhood.



3. Delisle, H. (2002). Programming of chronic disease by impaired fetal nutrition. Evidence and implications for policy and intervention strategies. Suiza: World Health Organization.
http://www.who.int/nutrition/publications/programming_chronicdisease.pdf
And this one published by the World Health Organization reviewed causes of death of a population of humans, when comparing those whose birth dates occurred during seasons when food was scarce, with those born at "better" times of the year. They found there was no difference between the two groups in childhood mortality, so one might conclude they were all equally healthy; but when adulthood was reached, the people who had, in theory at least, less optimal nutrition before birth were more likely to die from infections...


> Based on cohort studies in the Gambia and in view of animal evidence, fetal programming of immunity was hypothesized.
> There was a marked increase .. (_in risk of death after puberty_) ... with a risk ratio of 3.7 for deaths after 14.5 years, and of 10.3 for deaths after 25 years, in people born during the hungry season. Causes of death were primarily infection or infection-related, not chronic diseases. It was therefore suggested that early life events caused permanent damage to the immune system.
> There is abundant evidence of sustained effects of fetal undernutrition on immunological function in animals. Zinc depletion during gestation, in particular, has a profound effect on the development of lymphoid organs, especially the thymus and spleen, and later repletion is ineffective. Intergenerational effects of maternal zinc deficiency have even been reported in the â€™70s. Similar effects may result from protein-energy or other micronutrient deficiencies, but zinc is known to play a prominent role in the modulation of immune function.



Normal "Fetal Programming" of many organs may require adequate vitamin D during development. 
Here is an excellent article that I can recommend:
Hossein-nezhad, A., & Holick, M. F. (2013, June). Vitamin D for Health: A Global Perspective. In Mayo Clinic Proceedings. Elsevier.
http://download.journals.elsevierhealth.com/pdfs/journals/0025-6196/PIIS0025619613004047.pdf


> Epidemiologic evidence has suggested a link between fetal life events and susceptibility to disease in adult life.
> The role of vitamin D in epigenetic modification and fetal programming could potentially explain why vitamin D has been reported to have such wide-ranging health benefits.
> Vitamin D deficiency during pregnancy may, therefore, not only impair maternal skeletal preservation and fetal skeletal formation but also influence fetal â€œimprintingâ€ that may affect chronic disease susceptibility soon after birth as well as later in life.



I think this review is well worth reading, even though it is about humans, since MBD resulting from vitamin D deficiency is still one of the most common conditions presented to reptile veterinarians. 
Many pet tortoises have obvious MBD, which indicates _gross_ deficiency.. I don't think we can ignore the possibility that in view of the high incidence of such severe deficiencies in the population, many apparently normal tortoises, like apparently normal humans, may have "normal" skeletons and carapaces, but still be deficient enough to have increased susceptibility to a whole range of conditions in later life... 

This is of course looking at vitamin D, which is what I study most. However, I have come across some other articles relating to early influences on health in later life. Most are relating to prenatal influences on mammals, but a few studies are appearing on birds. I only have access to the abstract of this paper - on the effect of stress hormones on chicks - but it looks relevant:
Spencer, K. A., Evans, N. P., & Monaghan, P. (2009). Postnatal stress in birds: a novel model of glucocorticoid programming of the hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis. Endocrinology, 150(4), 1931-1934.
http://press.endocrine.org/doi/pdf/10.1210/en.2008-1471


> Postnatal stress (_post-natal exposure to glucocorticoids_) has significant long-term effects on the physiological stress response in birds and provides a potential mechanism underlying long-term behavioural responses to developmental conditions.



I hope this hasn't deviated too far from the latest posts; if so please just carry on and ignore it...
Best wishes
Frances


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## BeeBee*BeeLeaves

I am really enjoying the back and fo of this thread, such wonderful information for consideration, albeit it does take me-brain a little time to digest it all, so I have to read and re-read. And re-read again ... woo hoo!

Just want to say thank you all so much! Again, just passing by ... this time with my lil friend from the Masai Mara National Reserve (picture by Robert Winslow). Look at that shell! Love me the tortoises and all this awesome tortoise education from everybody! Lots to think about! Back to reading the links! Muah! (blowing kiss) : )


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## Dizisdalife

Testudoresearch said:


> Yvonne G said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's fine, but in a debate, you come back with your proof as to why the debated comment is a misrepresentation, you don't talk down to him or be rude.
> 
> 
> 
> I have responded with real proof. Repeatedly. It is consistently disregarded and ignored.
Click to expand...


Perhaps you missed the part about talking down to him or otherwise being rude. I, for one, had tuned out this thread because it had, in my opinion, strayed far from the topic. When I saw that Yvonne had posted here I came back to read her post. It did not surprise me, and it was written as a moderator. I have to admit that I have learned a few things reading this thread. There are many things presented here that I already knew and from the postings here I can see that there is some science to it. The fact that spot lights create hot spots on the carapace that are damaging, for instance. A good diet of fiber and high calcium is essential, as another example. However, after reading post after post, over and again, I have no more knowledge of the "physiology of pyramiding" that I did two weeks ago.
Testudoresearch, I have mostly enjoyed your input here. I can't say for certain that I will buy your forthcoming book, but your presence here is welcomed by me. I am a pet owner. Not too different than most others here. Maybe I am a tortoise enthusiast. As such, I think that over the years science has failed us. Your references to research that is 10, 20, or more years old just doesn't have the influence on me that techniques being tried and implemented today will have. 20 years ago I was being told to keep my tortoise in a small aquarium on sand under hot lights. No, you were not the one saying those words. I used that as an illustration of why I have a difficult time reading old research. Perhaps 20 years from now we will have the answers that we seek.


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## Testudoresearch

I would disagree strongly that "science has failed us". Good science is just that. Good science. It reveals truth, and it makes sense. If it does not make sense, that is the time to question the quality of the science being relied on.

Unfortunately.... in the pet keeping field there are a lot of people who try to _interpret _science, but lack the knowledge and experience to do so accurately. The internet, which should have made sharing real knowledge and factual information easy and available to all, has - in my opinion - made things even worse. You only have to peruse internet forums to see that. The "signal to noise ratio" is now overwhelmingly awful, and poor information vastly outnumbers the good. You have totally unqualified, inexperienced people proclaimed as "experts" - just because they shout the loudest and have an "opinion" on everything. It is not an advancement. It is a massive dumbing down. It is hugely destructive and has real impacts. Very negative impacts. Today, quite a high proportion of serious welfare and rescue cases that arrive at reptile rescues are the direct result of poor information and advice sourced from the internet, for example. One time, you just had to worry about "TFH" publications.... now the bad science and atrocious advice is everywhere.

One problem area is that many average keepers simply have no grasp of the fact that _comparative _ biology/physiology is a completely valid and incredibly useful tool. I have seen valuable (and totally valid) data obtained from, say - a lizard - dismissed out of hand by tortoise keepers because it was "a different animal"! They simply do not comprehend the points of similarity and differences. To them... it is a meaningless comparison.....

Good research and good science also stands the test of time. There are biology papers and books written not 10, 20 or even 50 years ago that are still valid, but some from 100 years ago and more. There are books and papers published this year that are full of errors, based on appalling methodology, and that reach entirely erroneous conclusions. I can think of one immediately (published in 2002 and much referenced by some) that achieves the dubious honor of fulfilling all three criteria.

Good science is incredibly useful and can have huge practical applications and benefits. Work on UVB in reptiles, for example... and the work we have been doing with the effects of basking lamps. These things can be the difference between illness and health, life and death. We are learning more all the time. We just have to be careful we do not bury it under pseudo-science and ill-informed nonsense. Keepers need to educate themselves, to at least the point where they are capable of determining fact from fiction.


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## Testudoresearch

To return to the very core of this matter as unfortunately far too much extraneous matter has been introduced...

Would any care to comment, for or against, the 'infamous' paper by Weisner and Iben which most pro-humidity proponents routinely cite as their prime source?

Does anyone see any problems with the methodology used there? Anything at all? 

If you think it is a great piece of research, feel free to explain why it is to be relied upon.


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## Sulcata_Sandy

Andy, from a scientific standpoint, it's very sloppy, poorly written, and not, in fact, very scientific at all.

One sp is used, a relatively small selection at that, and from I gather, out of the same clutch. This represents a very small scope of only the G. Sulcata species. It does not touch upon what was fed, just a weak description of protein, with no values, and lists a HUGE RH range. I find this article completely useless for even a remote assumption of pyramiding causes.

In my professional opinion...as a Licensed Veterinary Technician with 25 years of experience with reptiles (and 8 academic years), this is a very small scale and useless article. I have gleamed nothing from it, accept that they had some interesting findings with their small scale "experiment".


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## Yvonne G

May I ask which article you are referring to, Sandy?


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## Dizisdalife

Testudoresearch said:


> I would disagree strongly that "science has failed us". Good science is just that. Good science. It reveals truth, and it makes sense. If it does not make sense, that is the time to question the quality of the science being relied on.


Okay. I really didn't mean to paint science as a bad thing. After all, I relied on science, physics, applied physics, and mathematics to do my work for far too many years. But I did see "good science" fail. I do agree whole heartedly that when it does not make sense then it time to question the quality of the science relied on. That is mostly what I was referring to in my statement. The tortoise care information that was generally available 20 to 30 years ago, for the most part, yielded poor results. If it had yielded good results then keepers would not have resorted to alternative measures. I sympathize with you. As a scientist you must feel like the MD viewing all those "cold remedies" that are on the market. If you exercise and eat right and are otherwise healthy you should not be prone to colds. And if you do get a cold then get plenty of rest and drink liquids and your body will naturally fight off that cold. Sometimes a bowl of chicken soup just makes you feel better.

That is the kind of logic I keep hearing here, in this thread. If I keep my tortoise in the same conditions that it would experience in the wild then it shouldn't pyramid or have MBD. I can not disagree with that, but is it really science? What I am looking for science to do for me is to teach me how to keep my tortoise in unnatural conditions, as far as climate goes, and yet have the same results as if they were raised in their native land. Maybe this is too much to ask? 

The answer may be wasted on me as I have my limit of tortoises. I don't expect that I will again raise a hatchling. It may serve to help others.



Testudoresearch said:


> Unfortunately.... in the pet keeping field there are a lot of people who try to _interpret _science, but lack the knowledge and experience to do so accurately. The internet, which should have made sharing real knowledge and factual information easy and available to all, has - in my opinion - made things even worse. You only have to peruse internet forums to see that. The "signal to noise ratio" is now overwhelmingly awful, and poor information vastly outnumbers the good. You have totally unqualified, inexperienced people proclaimed as "experts" - just because they shout the loudest and have an "opinion" on everything. It is not an advancement. It is a massive dumbing down. It is hugely destructive and has real impacts. Very negative impacts. Today, quite a high proportion of serious welfare and rescue cases that arrive at reptile rescues are the direct result of poor information and advice sourced from the internet, for example. One time, you just had to worry about "TFH" publications.... now the bad science and atrocious advice is everywhere.


Can't disagree with you about the internet making a lot of bad information available. On the other hand, if not for the 'net we would not be having this conversation at all. My sulcata would have been raised entirely on a dry substrate with hot lamps and no thermostat or perhaps even a thermometer! I provide a service to over 1000 home owners in San Diego. Not related to pets of any type. I get into many homes every year and have seen how people keep their tortoises. I try to steer them to this forum because I know that here they will get some practical help and advice. I just hope they don't stumble into a thread like this right off the bat. In my opinion, it is the absence of the internet that has keep tortoise keepers in the dark about the needs of their pet. When I got my first tortoise, a rescued California desert tortoise, twenty-five years ago, I went to a Tortoise Society meeting and was given a three-page handout covering the care and diet of this animal. Wow! 

So, for all the misinformation that is out there, I feel that the internet is positive tool for us pet keepers. It facilitates discussions such as the one we are having. It does allow for, and I too feel the frustration with this, the constant challenging of existing ideas, concepts, and practices. It's not that everyone thinks they are an expert it is more that the experts have to pull more people up to their level than ever before. That's a tough job. I can see why you think it is a massive dumbing down. There was a time in my life when my professional career, mostly pre-internet, but focused on the technology that ushered in the "internet age", called upon me to write for industrial journals, present at association meetings, conduct seminars, and participate in advanced studies. Once the internet became established the questions seemed to come out of left field. It was as if I were starting over with the entire education process. 



Testudoresearch said:


> One problem area is that many average keepers simply have no grasp of the fact that _comparative _ biology/physiology is a completely valid and incredibly useful tool. I have seen valuable (and totally valid) data obtained from, say - a lizard - dismissed out of hand by tortoise keepers because it was "a different animal"! They simply do not comprehend the points of similarity and differences. To them... it is a meaningless comparison.....


The problem is that I am the average keeper. I am the many or the most that you are referring to. I read these statements as an attempt by you to classify yourself as the "all knowing" and the rest of us as the "incapable of knowing". You are certainly more educated than myself when it comes to tortoises, that's for sure, but statements like this I find to be condescending. Maybe it is just me and I am the only one that thinks that this is arrogant. Facts, and research, and experiences can be presented without condescension and rudeness. 



Testudoresearch said:


> Good research and good science also stands the test of time. There are biology papers and books written not 10, 20 or even 50 years ago that are still valid, but some from 100 years ago and more. There are books and papers published this year that are full of errors, based on appalling methodology, and that reach entirely erroneous conclusions. I can think of one immediately (published in 2002 and much referenced by some) that achieves the dubious honor of fulfilling all three criteria.
> 
> Good science is incredibly useful and can have huge practical applications and benefits. Work on UVB in reptiles, for example... and the work we have been doing with the effects of basking lamps. These things can be the difference between illness and health, life and death. We are learning more all the time. We just have to be careful we do not bury it under pseudo-science and ill-informed nonsense. Keepers need to educate themselves, to at least the point where they are capable of determining fact from fiction.


Good science and good research does endure when it is indeed good and has met the test of application and usefulness. I applaud the ongoing research by you and others to bring to light new information that can be applied to better the environments for our pets. We keepers do need to educate ourselves and we need teachers that can relate to our problems and answer our concerns. We need simple, direct answers that are believable and fit into a frame of reference that we can relate to. 

For all the science that has been referenced here (I admit that I find it to be dry reading and difficult for me to really get into) I don't know any more about the physiology of pyramiding than I did two weeks ago. Am I failing science or is science failing me? I guess that is what I mean when I am suggesting simple, direct answers are what works here. At leasts I don't find them to be rude or condescending. Tom just tells me I am wrong and tells me how he does it. He took the time (and he is a busy man) to teach me how to cut a notch for the doorway of my tortoise house. Very practical and useful advice. It has had a great impact on the life of my sulcata. Tom gave me the dimensions to use for this doorway. Again, practical and useful information.Yvonne tells me she does it a different way and it works for her. Len creates something that works even better. Ken has great advice. When I ask them for help they give it freely and courteously. So do many other keepers here. Pseudo-science and ill-informed non-sense? Maybe. But these are the people I am most likely to trust when it comes to tortoise husbandry, methods, techniques and information. Without the internet I would be not have access to their experience. I would be sitting reading research papers wondering why my sulcata was not growing like the ones in the pictures I saw. Why his nose is always runny or his stools are always loose. It is due to the internet, this forum, and these good people that I do not have these worries. Maybe someday we will have a answer to "what causes pyramiding", but until then we keepers will adopt methods to raise our pet the best we can.


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## jaizei

Sulcata_Sandy said:


> Andy, from a scientific standpoint, it's very sloppy, poorly written, and not, in fact, very scientific at all.
> 
> One sp is used, a relatively small selection at that, and from I gather, out of the same clutch. This represents a very small scope of only the G. Sulcata species. It does not touch upon what was fed, just a weak description of protein, with no values, and lists a HUGE RH range. I find this article completely useless for even a remote assumption of pyramiding causes.
> 
> In my professional opinion...as a Licensed Veterinary Technician with 25 years of experience with reptiles (and 8 academic years), this is a very small scale and useless article. I have gleamed nothing from it, accept that they had some interesting findings with their small scale "experiment".



Did you read the article? 



Yvonne G said:


> May I ask which article you are referring to, Sandy?


Wiesner CS, Iben C. 2003.
Influence of environmental humidity and dietary protein on pyramidal growth of carapaces in African spurred tortoises (Geochelone sulcata).
J Anim Physiol a Anim. Nutr 87:66-74.

It was previously uploaded to the forum here:

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/attachment.php?aid=32499


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## Testudoresearch

Dizisdalife said:


> The problem is that I am the average keeper. I am the many or the most that you are referring to. I read these statements as an attempt by you to classify yourself as the "all knowing" and the rest of us as the "incapable of knowing".



Really sorry if it seems that way, as it is not the case at all. My frustration actually stems from the very fact I have made so many mistakes myself over the years... and I hate to see people repeating them. I unfortunately learned some things the hard way... or rather animals I was responsible for did. Mixing species... before we knew the problems... incorrect diets... even more recently, over-use of heat lamps... unfortunately I have made all those mistakes. The only thing I can do now is to try to help other people avoid making the same ones over and over. 



Dizisdalife said:


> For all the science that has been referenced here (I admit that I find it to be dry reading and difficult for me to really get into) I don't know any more about the physiology of pyramiding than I did two weeks ago. Am I failing science or is science failing me? I guess that is what I mean when I am suggesting simple, direct answers are what works here.



There is a brief, practical list of things in this thread. Post number 9.

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-84819.html


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## ulkal

Testudoresearch said:


> Unfortunately.... in the pet keeping field there are a lot of people who try to _interpret _science, but lack the knowledge and experience to do so accurately. The internet, which should have made sharing real knowledge and factual information easy and available to all, has - in my opinion - made things even worse. You only have to peruse internet forums to see that. The "signal to noise ratio" is now overwhelmingly awful, and poor information vastly outnumbers the good. You have totally unqualified, inexperienced people proclaimed as "experts" - just because they shout the loudest and have an "opinion" on everything. It is not an advancement. It is a massive dumbing down.



Jaa, too bad it was opened up to the plebs. Dunno what I dislike more, rude (!) disregard of other peoples opinions and experiences or cultural/civilizational pessimism. Majority of people isn't dumb, people just have different backgrounds. I understand that you approach studies like this differently than the "amateur". You are trained for this.


This is like the guys (ja,mostly guys, unfortunately) at tech customer service getting annoyed with old people asking basic questions about computers. You studied it years and years and years and get mad at people with a different background. There is a saying in German: There are no dumb questions(I leave the second part out)

As to the study, it tackles the issue from a different end than you. Amateur question: Can a study be conclusive with taking only 2 variables into account and no thorough physical examination of all growth (bone, shell, organs)?Nevertheless, can it be a starting point buy showing which variables actually to take into account?
__________________________________________________________
okay, I just saw you answered before me and understand that you are very passionate about this. But people do not try to maliciously antagonize they just reflect on things in different ways. IMO.


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## Testudoresearch

The problem with uncritical acceptance of "facts" or advice is that it can - and does - lead to devastating mistakes being made. Other people come along and add their own misinterpretations.... and the poor information gets even poorer. 

In the case of captive animals, those mistakes cause illness, suffering and death.

That's why it matters.

This paper, for example... used as prime source and cited countless times on tortoise forums as reliable research.

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/attachment.php?aid=32499

Read it carefully.


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## ulkal

Testudoresearch said:


> The problem with uncritical acceptance of "facts" or advice is that it can - and does - lead to devastating mistakes being made. Other people come along and add their own misinterpretations.... and the poor information gets even poorer.
> 
> In the case of captive animals, those mistakes cause illness, suffering and death.
> 
> That's why it matters.
> 
> This paper, for example... used as prime source and cited countless times on tortoise forums as reliable research.
> 
> http://www.tortoiseforum.org/attachment.php?aid=32499
> 
> Read it carefully.



I understand, but then isn't it a good thing that people also challenge facts that you give, amateur or not? Whats the problem with them to say "oh, I heard otherwise" or "I came to a different conclusion". Has nothing to do with being dumb. Pointing then out the flaws in their interpretations of the sources or the sources itself is perfectly fine. 

I read it and had two initial questions in my former post: 
"Amateur question: Can a study be conclusive with taking only 2 variables into account and no thorough physical examination of all growth (bone, shell, organs)?" You might add two variables in captivity.


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## Testudoresearch

Certainly. By all mean challenge any data I present. 

Could you explain your question in more detail. What study are you referring to? Which two variables do you mean?


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## ulkal

Testudoresearch said:


> Certainly. By all mean challenge any data I present.
> 
> Could you explain your question in more detail. What study are you referring to? Which two variables do you mean?



Thats what I meant that nobody is just antagonizing for the sake of antagonizing here. Neither you nor anyone else.

Sorry if that was unclear, I am referring to the Iben and Wiesner study.

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/attachment.php?aid=32499

You asked what we think about the methodology and I in return wanted to know if it is "enough" to conduct this in captivity and only look at two variables. For me it does not read as if looking for the reason of pyramiding in captivity or for pyramiding in general. Also, the physical examination does not include a look at bones, organs, etc.


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## Testudoresearch

No problem. I understand the context of the question now.

I think there are a number of serious problems with that study. They say that their intent was to (I quote) "examine the effect of dietary protein level and environmental humidity on the degree of pyramidal growth in the carapaces". They also said that their aim was to provide "the basis for advice to turtle keepers". I certainly think a valid study with those aims could be designed. I do not (for reasons I will explain later) think they succeeded in doing that, however. Sulcata Sandy has pointed out one problem area. You also raise another - the lack of any kind of evidence of bone quality. In other words, we have no idea if MBD was present or not in any of the tortoises in this study.... we don't know if the bone growth resulting from each group was "good" or "bad". There are no X-rays, for example.


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## lilacdragon

I have read the Weisner and Iben paper again, carefully, several times today, and I agree with Sulcata_Sandy.


> from a scientific standpoint, it's very sloppy, poorly written, and not, in fact, very scientific at all.



There is nothing wrong with looking at just two variables at all - if you look at them carefully while taking appropriate measurements; control other variables properly; and have sufficient numbers of replications of each treatment group to get results that are statistically significant.
I'm not convinced that the study succeeded on these counts; for this reason I am concerned to learn that it seems to be used as the sole piece of evidence for a whole "method" of tortoise rearing....
I think other people should try to replicate this experiment using much better recording methods, checking far more parameters to ensure all the vivaria are indeed identical except for the specified variables, and looking much harder at the comparative health of the animals at the end.

Their humidity measurements, in particular, are very crude - they simply stuck a probe into the top corner of each tank. So their only measurements were of the water vapour in the air at the top of the vivarium. Yet they installed halogen heaters just 25cm (10") "above the ground" in these tanks. When switched on, these would have had a huge effect on the humidity just below them - and on the carapaces of the basking animals.

Also, surprisingly few measurements of humidity seem to have been taken. The caption for the relevant table states:
_Average of eight weekly measured values of the max and min RH %_

So they only measured "max and min" for each group eight times, over five months? 
And there were no replicate vivaria, i.e., only one vivarium in each treatment group....

Here are the figures:
Group A "Dry" 24.3 - 57.8% "low humidity, low protein"
Group B "Dry" 27.4 - 55.5% "low humidity, medium protein" 
Group C "Intermediate" 30.6 - 74.8% "moderate humidity, medium protein" 
Group D "Humid" 47.9 - 99% "high humidity, medium protein" 
Group E "Humid" 45 - 99% "high humidity, high protein" 

The range is also enormous, and curiously, these are only the mean values for max and min... so if I wanted to play devils advocate, I could suggest that it is possible that the humidity in Groups A and B was more often close to its maximum reading (above 55%) and that the humidity in Groups D and E might have been more often close to its minimum reading (below 48%). If that were true, then Groups A and B would have been more humid, for more of the time, than Groups D and E.  I'm sure this wasn't the case, but.... 

Another problem: looking at Table 3, I can see that *ALL their tortoises had "humps"*  ... they say in the text that a perfect carapace would have a negative H-index. 
It is true that the biggest deviation from a smooth carapace is found in the group kept dry and fed fairly high protein... i.e., growing fast, in drier conditions. But there is very little difference between Groups A and E. _Is this a non-significant difference?_ The authors do not report any statistics comparing groups A and E... I wonder why not? 
If there is no significant difference in carapace shape between young animals that grow slowly on a lower-protein diet in what they describe as "low" humidity (24 - 58%), and those that grow far, far faster on a high-protein diet in "high humidity" (Over 45%) then what is the benefit of growing them fast, in wet vivaria? 

People have been debating the cause/ causes of pyramiding for years. But it is only very recently that the full facts about UVB, vitamin D synthesis and metabolic bone disease have been worked out; studies on keratin and how it responds to moisture have been linked to pyramiding; and now, studies have been emerging on the effects of artificial lighting and heating on living cells, at the molecular level. Maybe we will soon have a much fuller picture...

Until a year or so ago, I assumed that all infrared did was "warm" the animal. Now I read that it has all sorts of effects upon cellular chemistry depending on wavelength; and that lamps emit different wavelengths from sunlight; and different wavelengths penetrate to different depths; and some heat water, and others don't...
I would like to hear what people think about an idea that has recently been playing around in my head. 

What if the selective warming of the blood vessels between the bony plates (as seen in Andy's thermal images) is simultaneously causing abnormal changes in blood flow, or cell division, or fluid balance at those sites? It does in human skin, here are a couple of papers:

Cho, S., Shin, M. H., Kim, Y. K., Seo, J. E., Lee, Y. M., Park, C. H., & Chung, J. H. (2009, August). Effects of infrared radiation and heat on human skin aging in vivo. In Journal of Investigative Dermatology Symposium Proceedings (Vol. 14, No. 1, pp. 15-19). Nature Publishing Group.
http://www.nature.com/jidsp/journal/v14/n1/pdf/jidsymp20097a.pdf

Schieke, S. M., Schroeder, P., & Krutmann, J. (2003). Cutaneous effects of infrared radiation: from clinical observations to molecular response mechanisms. Photodermatology, photoimmunology & photomedicine, 19(5), 228-234.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1034/j.1600-0781.2003.00054.x/pdf

Might not such changes cause abnormal growth which contributes to pyramiding, in tortoises?

If so, why would keeping the animal moist be of benefit in reducing pyramiding? 
Apart from the effects already described fully by Andy, relating to the increased flexibility of soft, moist keratin, I would like to submit the following idea:
.. if there is a lot of moisture in the keratin of the scutes, then those water molecules, rather than those within the deeper tissues, could be "drawing the heat" from the "non-solar" IR-A, as well as the inevitable IR-B and IR-C, from the heat lamps.... protecting the deeper layers. (A bit like sunscreen vs. UVB?)
A simple experiment would be to do thermal imaging on a basking tortoise under a heat lamp, that has been living in a "moist" environment cf. one from a drier one....

This could be adding to the effects of dietary and calcium/phosphorus imbalances on the shape of the carapace. This paper I found particularly interesting as the author explains clearly how he believes certain specific deformations might occur:
Gerlach, J. (2004). Effects of diet on the systematic utility of the tortoise carapace. African Journal of Herpetology, 53(1), 77-85.
http://islandbiodiversity.com/Afr%20J%20Herpetol%202004%20tortoise%20diet.pdf
What is the consensus on Justin Gerlach's conclusions here?

Frances


----------



## tortadise

I will say this;
Of many pages and or thousands of words od scientific defined text and portrayal of chelonian study papers or published a
Papers.

The way I keep all the 28 species of tortoise I have kept over 20 years have been to the utmost single naturalistic manor of all.

I may not have the experiance or title to claim such research or scientific proclaimed status.

It seems to me the thought process of many here begins shallow and too following like. Just because one says you must do "this" to grow your animal smooth or "unpyramided" makes me cringe. The following is what makes us as "keepers" less intelligent than that of "protectors". Which is what I proclaim to be. A protector of these precious beings of earth. To understand these precious beings is to understand the enviroent in which they thrive, live, eat, procreate, endure, and survive. The most simple rule in humanistic behavior in keeping; and or caring for such chelonia of SSP. Is to understand its surroundings and its life its exposed to. Until a keeper or " collector understands such. Then it will all be as if a breathe in the wind. 

It shames me to say too many people seek a answer to which should already be in knowledge we seek for our pets, or hobby, or interest. The answers lye benith our sight and within our scent. Too much has slipped from our knowledge. Too much has faded from our aspirations. Too much has faded from our common sense. Look in too nature. Follow its paths. Listen to its rythems. Hear its storms. Feel its warmth and cool air. Follow the guidance it portrays to the world and you shall keep what of its precious creations in pure harmony. 

Dont be a follower. Be a student of nature. Dont question its reasons. Just understand them and follow the path it tends to imply. 

When we question why from nature, and why must we do such. You must question your intelligence and question your reasons in changing what nature has allowed these animals to thrive in. When we as keepers or collectors try to establish a humanistic approach of what we can so better. That is when WE ARE WRONG in thinking, we have the RIGHT of changing and or forcing a changed enviroent of something ment not to live in that environment, but yet survive as long as it can. Yes I said survive. Any studies on captive collections of chelonia and longetivity in captivity? Hmmm? I think not. Because of our failures as a human egotistical race. we must portray a ceremonis, a accomplishment. Without respect and honor of natures being. We minimalize our standards to keep an animal. We keep for our benefit. But yet we do not understand why we see death. Why we see unnatural growth. Why we see sorrow. Why we see disfunction. Yet the diafunction is of our own misinterpretation of how we care. How we research. How we choose to care for these animals. 

The simple choice is at our dispesense. However we follow that which is worded by of uncreditable sources to be fact. A source of which holds no creditability in nature. A source which resides with a personal and human emotional standings. 

I choose nature. I choose to follow natures patterns. I choose to follow the environments weather, fauna, and seasonal patterns to care for all the species I chose to become administrator of. Its a simple choice. A choice we must be smart enough to dictate. 

What is right for our tortoises. Well what does the natural surroundings and the natural enviroent tell us? Find those answers and you will have a perfectly grown, perfectly healthy, long lived tortoises.


That is all from me for now.


Sorry if their are many typos I am on my phone.


----------



## Testudoresearch

Justin's paper I think highlights very well the influence of diet on this matter. You cannot possibly ignore diet. *It affects the integrity of the skeleton.* It therefore _has_ to have an important role. It would be absurd and irrational to claim otherwise. 

The three key dietary factors are:

1) Calcium and Phosphorus: absolute levels and ratio

2) Protein content - intimately involved in determining growth rates

3) Fiber content and digestibility - determines the amount of energy 'extracted' from a given intake over a certain timescale. Also related to growth rates. Most captive diets are far too low in fiber, and far too digestible (Justin did another paper on this, incidentally, comparing wild growth Aldabra growth with those maintained in a zoo. The zoo grown animals demonstrated massively accelerated growth. Steps were taken to reduce the digestibility of the captive diet). 

There are of course other factors..other important trace elements....and D3/UVB... but those are the primary areas I would identify as being of absolutely *critical importance *in chelonian diets in terms of generating good bone growth. Good bone growth is, in turn, of critical importance when looking at keratin stress and bone interactions. This is the root of this entire "pyramiding" problem.

We have now moved from wild theories into understanding what is really happening, and even more importantly, in knowing how to prevent it in a genuinely effective and safe way. Without resorting to "sticking plasters" that merely cover up (or delay) the impacts of getting it wrong.

Frances. Bingo! Yes. 

There's even more. I'll add my own little contribution shortly. 

Does anyone still think that paper should be taken seriously?

Kelly. I agree with you 100%. If we start to consider nature, and the natural environment or diet "irrelevant", then we really have lost the plot. Completely.

To deal (briefly) with Frances' idea on how lamps may be affecting keratin growth specifically. I suspect something like that is going on. If we look at 'vivarium reared' tortoises we often see quite thick keratin... this could be a protective response to the very low humidity under those lamps... it could be due to some form of 'direct stimulation', or a combination of both. This is something that we need to examine in more detail as further research is undertaken.


----------



## ulkal

I rather meant that they only really disclose quantitative data on protein and humidity, without taking other measurements on the "identical conditions". (you explained that well already, lilacdragon) 
The Iben and Wiesner paper mention different POV about pyramiding and the possible connection with unhealthy bone-growth, flawed diet and UV. So they seem to be aware of potential other factors. Nevertheless they do nothing to include this in their analysis. Not talking about them not conducting a super-analysis of all factors with maybe limited funds, experience, time etc. But should they not point this out in their conclusion? Something like "ja, okay, the sulcatas kept in humid conditions are less bumpy...this could be because of keratin..humidity (etc.etc.).....there can be no conclusions on the development of bones and organs without a thorough physical examination....we did not examine the impact of lighting/other parts of the diet....further research is needed concerning bone growth....and some suggestions about further research?"

In the humanities, a good research is not only about what you found out but also reflect on what you might have missed, could not include, or how to proceed.


Nevertheless, I still have to see proof that the tortoises started humid are less healthily developed. This is not because I do not understand the reasons of why it is potentially harmful. 
Again, it would be really great to have some x-rays of animals raised hot and humid looked at by someone who can make something out of it


----------



## paludarium

Testudoresearch said:


> My second question is more of a practical nature. You are using a very high humidity environment to rear G. pardalis. I understand you have seen these natural habitats... if so, you must surely recognise that the environment you are using is totally different from that in the wild. It is, in general, a semi-arid, scrubby habitat. Finding pockets of high humidity in that habitat is very, very difficult. I have recorded the actual conditions right next to both juvenile and adult wild Leopard tortoises, and typically, RH ranges from 35-60% for most of the year. Very high levels are only seen at certain times of year, during and immediately following rain. For most of the time, RH is in the 40-50% range.



The leopard tortoise inhabits dry semi-deserts with only 100 mm annual rainfall, thorny scrublands, to rainy areas with 1400 mm, from flat plains at sea level to altitudes of nearly 3,000 meters. They seem to be quite versatile in its selection of preferred habitat and are not picky in terms of their habitats except dense forest areas. Leopards tortoises don't live in the jungles, probably due to less food and sunlight under forest canopy, or the high humidity. We have to test it but not just muse on the habitat. Unless we verify that Tom's method is detrimental to the health of the the leopard tortoise, I would not conclude that the closed chamber is not feasible to raise them. 

We also have to take climate change into account. For example Sahara, the climate of the Sahara has undergone enormous variations between wet and dry over the last few hundred thousand years. At present (2000 AD), we are in a dry period, but it is expected that the Sahara will become green again in 15000 years (17000 AD). However the fossil evidence indicated that both sulcata and leopard tortoises have been existing on the african continent for more than one millon years! Both species were too slow to escape from the harsh enviroment and they also have experienced the dramatical changes of the climates.

As the ancestors of _homo sapiens_ trekked out of the Africa continent, they never ever predicted that their descendent would evantually have survived and thrived on the Tibetan plateau, in the arctic and in the Amazon jungles. On the contrary, if we investigate the Tibetan and find out human beings who have been living there for thousands of years, we could indeed collect some important facts and information, but they by no means represented the only lifestyle of _homo sapiens_. What about american lifestyle or living in space?

Just anothter example to show that field researches do not reveal the truth.



Testudoresearch said:


> Justin's paper I think highlights very well the influence of diet on this matter.



I would always focus on the materials and methods of a study. Gerlach's study was neither a proscpective study nor a controlled trial, it was only a retroscpective review. The data used in the study were supplied by private tortoise keepers. These comprised 240 British captive bred and reared Testudo and 354 Seychelles captive bred and reared Dipsochelys dussumieri. The diets of some of these tortoises were changed during rearing. All tortoises were 10-15 years old when measured. I would always be very cautious about a review data that referred to private tortoise keepers and consisted of more than 500 tortoises and in a period for more than 10 years. We did not know the real contents of the diets and the raising environments in past 10-15 years of all tortoises. It should have been a huge project.

The best way to prove if Tom is wrong is to conduct the autopsy on his leopard tortoises and find out the real shell structure of the tortoises.



lilacdragon said:


> What if the selective warming of the blood vessels between the bony plates (as seen in Andy's thermal images) is simultaneously causing abnormal changes in blood flow, or cell division, or fluid balance at those sites? It does in human skin, here are a couple of papers:
> 
> Cho, S., Shin, M. H., Kim, Y. K., Seo, J. E., Lee, Y. M., Park, C. H., & Chung, J. H. (2009, August). Effects of infrared radiation and heat on human skin aging in vivo. In Journal of Investigative Dermatology Symposium Proceedings (Vol. 14, No. 1, pp. 15-19). Nature Publishing Group.
> http://www.nature.com/jidsp/journal/v14/n1/pdf/jidsymp20097a.pdf
> 
> Schieke, S. M., Schroeder, P., & Krutmann, J. (2003). Cutaneous effects of infrared radiation: from clinical observations to molecular response mechanisms. Photodermatology, photoimmunology & photomedicine, 19(5), 228-234.
> http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1034/j.1600-0781.2003.00054.x/pdf
> 
> Might not such changes cause abnormal growth which contributes to pyramiding, in tortoises?



I would only trust a doctor who tries to treat me using the evidence-based medicine, but never trust a medical doctor who tries to treat me using the data extrapolated from the tortoises. Would you?

Here is an excellent website to learn about bad science: http://www.badscience.net/

Erich


----------



## Testudoresearch

paludarium said:


> We have to test it but not just muse on the habitat. Unless we verify that Tom's method is detrimental to the health of the the leopard tortoise, I would not conclude that the closed chamber is not feasible to raise them.
> Here is an excellent website to learn about bad science: http://www.badscience.net/
> 
> Erich



Some of us HAVE "tested it". Been there. Measured it....got the data. 

I did earlier ask you some specific questions which you have totally ignored. Please answer them. I am sure if you can find time to attack the methodology of highly respected researchers like Justin Gerlach you can at least find 10 minutes to answer some direct questions that will allow us to evaluate your contributions. The first questions concerned the Weisner & Iben paper:

Simple question.

*Do you find the methodology used in that study valid and acceptable?

Second question.

Define:

Low humidity (typical range)
High humidity (typical range)


Third question:

How much time have you personally spent in arid and semi-arid habitats? Where is your data? Photos? Evidence that supports the claims you make? Not second-hand or anecdotal. YOUR data - please? 

Please provide some straight answers to some very simple, direct questions that you have been asked. 

Thank you in advance for your cooperation.*


----------



## ulkal

Testudoresearch said:


> Some of us HAVE "tested it". Been there. Measured it....got the data.



Could you share those measurements and the specs? Or have you already and I missed something-if so, sorry.


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## Testudoresearch

paludarium said:


> I would only trust a doctor who tries to treat me using the evidence-based medicine, but never trust a medical doctor who tries to treat me using the data extrapolated from the tortoises. Would you?



PS: Are you truly unaware of the fact that almost without a single exception all medicines in use today rely on data "extrapolated" from non-human animals at some stage in their development? Also that medicines veterinarians use to treat tortoises were not developed or tested on tortoises? But on other animals, normally mammals? To dismiss like this all forms of comparative biology and physiology is indeed... bad science.




ulkal said:


> Could you share those measurements and the specs? Or have you already and I missed something-if so, sorry.



I will retrieve it from my records. It is quite simply recordings of relative humidity levels that were taken every time a wild leopard tortoise was spotted. These levels were taken right next to the tortoise. They include levels during activity periods, and levels while in "hides" in thorny (often Acacia) vegetation. None of the leopards used 'true' burrows, but rather, shallow pallets or 'scrapes'. As such, the conditions they experience are not too far divergent from general, ambient conditions. There is some small difference due to ground proximity effects (evaporation), etc., and reduced air movement, but the levels are not massively different. Going purely from memory here, but you will find them out and grazing in quite a large range of conditions. From really very dry, to very humid (depends on rainfall). By that, I mean from around 25% RH to around 85%. It can even go over that during and immediately after rain, but then reduces quite rapidly to 'normal' levels. The average level of measurements I recorded was approximately 55%. They are a tortoise associated with "dry, scrubby" habitats in the main. If it is being argued that they experience constant levels of high humidity, then a 'plane ticket to South Africa and a reliable hygrometer will provide all the proof to the contrary that anyone could ever wish for.


----------



## Dizisdalife

Testudoresearch said:


> paludarium said:
> 
> 
> 
> We have to test it but not just muse on the habitat. Unless we verify that Tom's method is detrimental to the health of the the leopard tortoise, I would not conclude that the closed chamber is not feasible to raise them.
> Here is an excellent website to learn about bad science: http://www.badscience.net/
> 
> Erich
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Some of us HAVE "tested it". Been there. Measured it....got the data.
> 
> I did earlier ask you some specific questions which you have totally ignored. Please answer them. I am sure if you can find time to attack the methodology of highly respected researchers like Justin Gerlach you can at least find 10 minutes to answer some direct questions that will allow us to evaluate your contributions. The first questions concerned the Weisner & Iben paper:
> 
> Simple question.
> 
> *Do you find the methodology used in that study valid and acceptable?
> 
> Second question.
> 
> Define:
> 
> Low humidity (typical range)
> High humidity (typical range)
> 
> 
> Third question:
> 
> How much time have you personally spent in arid and semi-arid habitats? Where is your data? Photos? Evidence that supports the claims you make? Not second-hand or anecdotal. YOUR data - please?
> 
> Please provide some straight answers to some very simple, direct questions that you have been asked.
> 
> Thank you in advance for your cooperation.
> *
Click to expand...

*
Wow. Testudoresearch, I certainly do not have any answers for you on this. Realizing, of course, that it is not I that you have addressed the questions to. I have suspected since reading some of your earlier post that your intent here is to either a)discredit Tom's method of raising baby sulcata or leopard, or b) promote your forthcoming book. 

I just want to point out to you that while you are attempting to discredit some ancient research (Weisner & Iben), Tom is readying his closed chambers to produce yet another round of smooth shelled sulcata and leopard babies. He nightly reviews his in-box full of thank you notes from the keepers that have received tortoise that he has started for them. There are many more thank you notes from those that he has taken the time to help directly and indirectly prevent or arrest the pyramiding in their babies. I have only to scan through the many threads in the sulcata section of this forum to find testimony after testimony as to the effectiveness of "Tom's method".

So, tell me again that it is not scientific. It doesn't account for all the proper variables. There is no physiological basis for it (and I do agree that certain attempts to explain why it is working fail in that department). Tell me again that all I need to do is to travel to South Africa and walk about taking random measurements of the RH when I spot a tortoise to understand why this method is wrong. Okay, so the measurements are not so random, statement withdrawn. Tell me again that the long term effects of this method that produces smooth shell specimens with big appetites, will certainly be health deficiencies do to rapid growth.

I have come to the conclusion that there is no conclusion until you, or someone else, performs a study similar to the one by Weisner and Iben. With todays advances in environmental control and measuring techniques it should be a vast improvement to what was done, when, 1988? Pre-internet. I really don't see what the reluctance to doing this study is.

The book that contains this study, one that tracks the the test groups from hatchling to adulthood, is the one I will buy.*


----------



## Testudoresearch

Dizisdalife said:


> Wow. Testudoresearch, I certainly do not have any answers for you on this. Realizing, of course, that it is not I that you have addressed the questions to. I have suspected since reading some of your earlier post that your intent here is to either a)discredit Tom's method of raising baby sulcata or leopard, or b) promote your forthcoming book



I have zero interest in "discrediting" anything for the sake of it. I am rather more interested in weeding out facts from fiction, particularly when systems are being promoted to keepers that are based on deeply flawed research and defective hypothesis. The reason that this matters has been pointed out before. If you do things that are based on poor research and false beliefs as to cause and effect, this is not a very good situation. I think most people would agree with that. It s a bit like in the old days, when fevers were treated by bleeding... and other strange "remedies". People believed it worked... they even had theories to explain why. Unfortunately, they were both wrong. People actually got sicker. Some died. That's the problem with theories based on nothing more than belief. 



Dizisdalife said:


> I just want to point out to you that while you are attempting to discredit some ancient research (Weisner & Iben)



You mean the very same "ancient research" that is regularly cited on Tortoise Forums (like this one) as alleged "proof" that the sole cause of so-called "pyramiding" is humidity? The very same "ancient research" that proponents of the theory keep referring to again and again? Strangely enough... that's the very same paper.

Since it is the prime source for almost all of these claims, do you not think it is a very good idea to re-examine it and subject it to critical review? 

It makes very good sense to me that something that so many cite as "proof" should be looked at very closely indeed.



Dizisdalife said:


> So, tell me again that it is not scientific. It doesn't account for all the proper variables. There is no physiological basis for it (and I do agree that certain attempts to explain why it is working fail in that department).



If you check back on what I have consistently said, you will find that my criticism is directed at the _explanations_ being offered to justify the method. You appear to share the same concerns. 



Dizisdalife said:


> Tell me again that all I need to do is to travel to South Africa and walk about taking random measurements of the RH when I spot a tortoise to understand why this method is wrong. Okay, so the measurements are not so random, statement withdrawn.



No. That is not what I said at all. What I said was perfectly clear.

I said that if it is being claimed that these tortoises are experiencing near constant levels of high humidity in the wild, this is quite simply incorrect and that were you to go there, with a hygrometer, you would quickly be able to prove that for yourself - in person. The claim is factually incorrect. They don't. Simple as that.


----------



## mctlong

Testudoresearch said:


> Dizisdalife said:
> 
> 
> 
> I just want to point out to you that while you are attempting to discredit some ancient research (Weisner & Iben)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You mean the very same "ancient research" that is regularly cited on Tortoise Forums (like this one) as alleged "proof" that the sole cause of so-called "pyramiding" is humidity? The very same "ancient research" that proponents of the theory keep referring to again and again? Strangely enough... that's the very same paper.
> 
> Since it is the prime source for almost all of these claims, do you not think it is a very good idea to re-examine it and subject it to critical review?
Click to expand...


From what I've see on this forum, the above article is not "the prime source for claims" proving the relationship between humidity and pyramidding. On this forum, user experience is the prime source.




Dizisdalife said:


> I have come to the conclusion that there is no conclusion until you, or someone else, performs a study similar to the one by Weisner and Iben. With todays advances in environmental control and measuring techniques it should be a vast improvement to what was done, when, 1988? Pre-internet. I really don't see what the reluctance to doing this study is.
> 
> The book that contains this study, one that tracks the the test groups from hatchling to adulthood, is the one I will buy.



Great idea! So who's volunteering to duplicate the study? Testudoresearch? Dizisdalife? Tom? Any biology grad students on the forum looking for a Thesis Project? Lets get the ball rolling on this!


----------



## wellington

I'd like to make a correction here. Tom, and many others, have never said that humidity alone prevents pyramiding. Although, it seems to work for even the tortoises not being fed the best of diets and seems to be a big role in pyramiding, Tom has always promoted good diet, as natural as possible, does not promote over feeding of supplemented food like Mazuri or grocery greens and always promotes proper exercise, sunlight and natural grazing. 
I'm also confused that most of your findings seem to be the Testudo species. Although humidity seems to be beneficial to many species, Toms experiments have been with the sulcata and leopard. 
There is a lot to still be learned and discovered, that can't be argued. The high humidity works for making leopards and sulcatas and others look like they are suppose too. Tortoises being raised this way, seem to be very healthy too. It's simple, can be accomplished no matter where you live and it seems to be working great. It comes with the years of experiments Tom has done and with the knowledge of their native land of Toms friend Toma. Can it be improved, probably. But keep in mind, the more scientific you want to speak, the less proof you can show, the harder you make it to understand, the more listeners you will loose. Most of us here want to care for and enjoy our pet tortoises. We do want to do the best for them, in the easiest way to understand. So, if you really want to change things, and better the life of tortoises in captive care, then, state your facts, show your proof and then put together an easy to follow and easy to accomplish care sheet.


----------



## Testudoresearch

I would respectfully disagree with both statements above.

A perusal of various threads provides multiple examples.

As to the Weisner and Iben paper's importance in this, it is incontrovertible that this is indeed the prime source cited repeatedly as "scientific" support for the theory. This is what Richard Fife said about it:

"In 2003 the University of Veterinary Medicine in Vienna (Austria) finally quantified the importance of humidity in the environment of hatching tortoises, and also showed in their research that high levels of protein had little affect on pyramiding"

This claim (which, incidentally actually misquotes Weisner and Iben in the first place!) has been repeated again... and again...and again...


----------



## wellington

I would love you to post where this has been repeated again and again along with the op of it. If you could please. 
Also, not that I am saying they are right or wrong, but what makes their ("In 2003 the University of Veterinary Medicine in Vienna (Austria) finally quantified the importance of humidity in the environment of hatching tortoises, and also showed in their research that high levels of protein had little affect on pyramiding")
research less accurate then yours? 
Also, not sure if I may have missed it or not, or if I have it incorrect or not. However, did you say, you are now in the process or have been in the process of raising some tortoises (not sure of species)in a way that in your opinion or within your research is different from the past and even present and more to a natural habitat. What are these specifics and can you give any input on any results yet.


----------



## Testudoresearch

mctlong said:


> Great idea! So who's volunteering to duplicate the study? Testudoresearch? Dizisdalife? Tom? Any biology grad students on the forum looking for a Thesis Project? Lets get the ball rolling on this!



There has already been a much better controlled study. Worth a read.

It is important to highlight (yet again) another common misconception repeated in the article linked:

_"After
more research I came across a book
that mentioned pyramiding of tortoise
shells. The book stated pyramiding was
caused by high levels of protein in the
diet, such as feeding large quantities of
dog food"
_

The book in question was one of mine. 

Except... it does not say that or claim that. This is yet another case of people thinking something was said, when it never was. What it actually said was that:

a) High protein intakes promote high growth rates
b) Most high protein diets are calcium deficient and can inhibit calcium utilization
c) High growth rate animals are highly susceptible to a variety of developmental disorders affecting bone quality (MBD, for example) and that such disorders can and do result in various forms of carapace deformity
d) High protein diets are associated with high rates of renal failure and with gout
e) High protein diets can be associated with excess keratin production.

Protein was at no time stated to be the "cause of pyramiding". It was stated to be (and still is) one of the contributory factors, for the simple reason that it promotes high growth rates, and tortoises in high growth phases are most susceptible to all forms of orthopedic disorders, resulting from absolute or relative deficiencies.


----------



## wellington

I am totally confused now. That article/study shows high humidity played a big role in the test tortoises not pyramiding, while the dry tortoises did pyramid. Isn't this going against what you are trying to say and discredit Tom for saying? Isn't this the total opposite from what you are trying to promote? I stopped reading this thread because it was getting confusing. Now with your latest post and article reference, it still is confusing to me. I will bow out again, and will keep promoting Toms way as I have been. He has the proof to back up his work


----------



## Testudoresearch

wellington said:


> I would love you to post where this has been repeated again and again along with the op of it. If you could please.



Can you be somewhat clearer on what you are asking for? Claims that protein has no effect? Claims that the cause is entirely humidity related? Or claims that the Weisner and Iben paper is credible and of importance?



wellington said:


> Also, not that I am saying they are right or wrong, but what makes their ("In 2003 the University of Veterinary Medicine in Vienna (Austria) finally quantified the importance of humidity in the environment of hatching tortoises, and also showed in their research that high levels of protein had little affect on pyramiding")
> research less accurate then yours?



Full details following. Judge for yourself.



wellington said:


> Also, not sure if I may have missed it or not, or if I have it incorrect or not. However, did you say, you are now in the process or have been in the process of raising some tortoises (not sure of species)in a way that in your opinion or within your research is different from the past and even present and more to a natural habitat. What are these specifics and can you give any input on any results yet.



Please refer back to earlier posts in this thread. Full details already provided.


----------



## wellington

Thanks, I thought you had already posted, details in your housing, just wasn't sure. I didn't want to search incase you hadn't. Thanks. 
The proof, actually threads/post, I am asking for is that high protein does not play a role in pyramiding. Maybe I miss understood, I took it that it is said over and over again on this forum.


----------



## lilacdragon

Tom, Paludarium and Andy, I'd really value your thoughts on this. And others too, of course...

Tom wrote:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-83263-post-789689.html#pid789689


> Using "un-natural" captive techniques to counter "un-natural" captive shortcomings makes perfect sense, AND it works very well if done correctly.



1. I'm sure most people, including all protagonists in this thread, would agree with me that tortoises are extremely highly evolved to thrive best in the precise microhabitat they evolved in. No-one is denying this fact. Therefore *if* we could provide that precise microhabitat, we would be offering the ideal environment for our tortoises. And conducting field research is the only way to discover what that microhabitat is.
(Comparing modern tortoise husbandry with humans living an "american lifestyle or living in space" seems unwise, by the way, because although humans do survive in both situations, the general health of people living Western lifestyles is suffering massive declines in the last few decades, with a pandemic of vitamin D deficiency, colossal increases in obesity, diabetes, auto-immune diseases, autism...)

2. *However*, we acknowledge that *we cannot provide that precise microhabitat.* Therefore we should either cease keeping them in captivity, or find ways of overcoming these shortcomings. We have already accepted many very artificial aids, without the furore associated with this "humidity" thing. How many people go nuts when someone recommends adding vitamin/mineral supplements to food? Hardly anyone. In fact it is almost universally recommended. Yet oral vitamin D3 is not part of the normal diet of any herbivorous animal. 
Tom appears to have discovered something extremely interesting: that damp keratin somehow helps prevent pyramiding in his young tortoises.
And here's something else that's also interesting. It doesn't even have to be associated with high humidity. 
In May 2010, Tom wrote: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-15137-post-135421.html#pid135421


> Interesting that you should say this. I had a conversation with Richard Fife a couple of weeks ago and one of the things he told me about, was spraying the carapace. He felt like that alone would prevent pyramiding, but was not ready to go public with it, until he had done some more research on it.



3. If we consider "wetting the carapace" as just like giving powdered vitamin D3 on food, then there is nothing terrible in investigating (a) whether it works and (b) whether it is safe. And then deciding whether the benefits outweigh the risks.
With regard to vitamin D supplementation - (a) people seem to have found out that it works for many species, and can prevent MBD; but (b) it is not completely safe, because humans are then controlling the dose; no-one actually knows the appropriate dose; both over-dosing and under-dosing are harmful; and the animal's metabolism isn't used to handling its D3 levels via the gut, and so natural internal controls on blood concentrations don't work properly. Nevertheless many people have decided that the benefits outweigh the risks, and so use VitD3 supplements with their animals ..and take the supplements themselves, too.
So what about wetting the carapace/ increased humidity?
(a) Does it work? Tom, please get your evidence into some serious herp publications. Charts, tables, photos, measurements. Everyone wants to see this data! 
(b) Is it safe? Paludarium wrote: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-83263-post-793439.html#pid793439


> The best way to prove if Tom is wrong is to conduct the autopsy on his leopard tortoises and find out the real shell structure of the tortoises.


Well, "autopsy" sounds a bit drastic.. but I'd sure like to see some investigations as to all aspects of health - X-Rays, bone density, blood panels, etc. and evidence of no harm from increased damp on respiratory function, skin health etc - This would reassure a lot of people and give credence to claims that this method is safe. And if any die from accidental injury for example, yes autopsy... and histology of kidney, liver etc as well as carapace and bone.
Only then will we be able to ascertain whether the benefits of this admittedly abnormal way of tortoise-rearing outweigh the risks.
And one big risk - as Andy has pointed out -is most definitely that it could mask an underlying serious bone pathology, namely Metabolic Bone Disorder.
I am deeply concerned about this possibility because vitamin D deficiency is still a number one problem, and we still haven't perfected UVB lighting, and we still don't have any universally accepted ideal of what constitutes a healthy heating/lighting/UVB environment.... 
PLEASE NOTE, I am NOT saying that anyone's torts reared using the humid method actually have "disguised MBD". What I'm saying is that the humid method might prevent it from being diagnosed.... so some torts might have it, but it might go un-recognised until very late...

I would also like to say something about this:
*Why does wetting the carapace help prevent pyramiding?*

OK we've gone over and over the idea that soft keratin is malleable. But when I posted those references about the effects of non-water-filtered IR-A on human skin, I was trying to add a new hypothesis for consideration....

Paludarium wrote: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-83263-post-793439.html#pid793439



> _lilacdragon Wrote: What if the selective warming of the blood vessels between the bony plates (as seen in Andy's thermal images) is simultaneously causing abnormal changes in blood flow, or cell division, or fluid balance at those sites? It does in human skin, here are a couple of papers:
> ....Effects of infrared radiation and heat on human skin aging in vivo. ....Cutaneous effects of infrared radiation: from clinical observations to molecular response mechanisms.
> Might not such changes cause abnormal growth which contributes to pyramiding, in tortoises?_
> 
> I would only trust a doctor who tries to treat me using the evidence-based medicine, but never trust a medical doctor who tries to treat me using the data extrapolated from the tortoises. Would you?



I was not even considering "medicine" or "treatment". All I was suggesting was that these particular wavelengths of IR-A, found under basking lamps but not in natural sunlight, have been shown to cause very distinct photobiological changes to living cells, including "angiogenesis" -increased blood vessel formation - and release of "cytokines" - inflammatory proteins. There's no reason to think that tortoise cells are substantially different from human cells when it comes to basic responses to irradiation. So could the sensitive, rapidly-multiplying cells along the edges of the scutes be affected by this abnormal IR-A? 
To my knowledge, no-one has ever suspected this could happen, before. I think it warrants investigation... 

We are all looking for answers as to why indoor-reared tortoises are more susceptible to pyramiding than outdoor-reared ones. If those wavelengths of IR-A are adding to the harm, but _wetting the carapace/ soaking the keratin layer prevents them from reaching the sensitive growth plates underneath_, then this could be one more reason why Tom's method works. 

As for the wretched Weisner and Iben paper: it was a poor study, but I'm sure it became popular because it appeared to offer a "scientific explanation" for an observed effect - and people wanted an explanation.
The _effect_ does not go away because the study is discredited. It does not go away if Weisner and Iben's tortoises weren't even good examples of the effect, and were all showing signs of pyramiding!

 Happy New Year, everyone    
Frances


----------



## Tom

I don't tell people how to raise Greek tortoises. Know why? I don't have enough experience. I've never raised a single one from hatchling to adult using any method. Sure I can answer basic question about them, but you will not see a Greek care sheet or humidity recommendation from me.

Likewise, Andy does not have enough sulcata or leopard experience to know what he is talking about. He is guilty of everything that he is accusing everyone else of. He dismisses or ignores evidence that does not support his preconceived notions and latches on to anything that does support them. He praises an author who has been criticized for lack of scientific data, citing decades of personal experience in its place, yet condemns others who do the same thing. He has never examined one single tortoise raised the way I raise them. He has no evidence whatsoever to back up any of his preposterous claims, so he keeps going back to what he does know better than anyone here, including me. He has used a hygrometer in some parts of the leopard range. I have not. I have, however raised hundreds of leopards and sulcatas in captive conditions and HE has not. If he had, then he would know, as I do, what will happen if you raise a sulcata hatchling on dry sandy soil, with 40% humidity. When I want to know how to raise a Greek tortoise in a naturalistic outdoor enclosure in or near their native range, I think Andy would be a great source of info. His apparent success speaks for itself. If you want to raise a smooth healthy sulcata, I would not ask him how to do it, since he has no idea.

Further, no one is claiming that any wild species lives in super high humidity 24/7/365. But it IS that high some of the time for leopards, and a lot of the time for sulcatas during the rainy season. I mlived through many miserable South African days with temps in the 90s and humidity over 90%. we had to keep hosing the dogs off to prevent heat stroke. Keep in mind that all this debate is about a 10% difference in recommended humidity. I recommend 80% based on my experience with sulcatas and leopards, and Andy has stated he recommends as high as 70%. Time has shown again and again what our attempts to replicate wild sulcata and leopard habitats will achieve. The last five years has demonstrated what a little hydration and humidity will achieve.

When someone can show me a dozen smooth sulcata hatchlings raised at 40% humidity on dry substrate with no humid hide, and actually discuss the details without throwing a hissy fit and quitting the debate, then that someone will have some credibility. I HAVE raised them that dry, so I DO know what will happen and what I'm talking about. Furthermore, that same someone ought to try raising them my way at least once so they will have at least SOME basis in fact and personal experience instead of posting fancy scientific articles about horse hooves in an effort to dodge the fact that he has never even raised a tortoise in the way he decries.

Another point to this discussion: Even in their native range, raising sulcatas dry in large captive environments is problematic. Tomas told me of the troubles they had when they first started their breeding programs and started rearing their hatchlings. He listed several problems that they were experiencing, and all those issues disappeared when they began irrigating the enclosures.

Like everyone else who has tried to argue this with me in the past, we are talking about apples and oranges. I'm not saying a Greek tortoise can't be raised smooth and healthy with lower humidity. I don't know if they can or can't. I've never done it either way. I HAVE however done it BOTH ways with lots of sulcatas and leopards, and so I feel pretty comfortable making a recommendation or two about them.


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## Kapidolo Farms

Testudoresearch said:


> To return to the very core of this matter as unfortunately far too much extraneous matter has been introduced...
> 
> Would any care to comment, for or against, the 'infamous' paper by Weisner and Iben which most pro-humidity proponents routinely cite as their prime source?
> 
> Does anyone see any problems with the methodology used there? Anything at all?
> 
> If you think it is a great piece of research, feel free to explain why it is to be relied upon.



Hey Andy, 

I say "Because so far not much has been done in controlled groups and settings that is better". I get that careful ex-situ observation goes a long way, ask any astronomer, no variable control with that field of science yeah? But as biologist we get to control variables and measure effects and contend correlations with more research causation.

My interest to this thread was brought to me externally by a friend. Been reading my way through nothing new for several pages. Got here and figured I'd ask a seemingly reasonable question myself.

Keratin is an extracellular matrix, it is not cells, it is plastic, more plastic than the extracellular matrix of bone. Components of bone can be acquired for other physiological purposes, components of keratin do not seem to have this feature. Keeping both plastic while in the 'proper' shape is the half the deal, while keeping them in balance is the other half. 

Not to mention the roles of gene processes that if not turned on early in life, do not function well later with a corollary that those turned on for a temporary environmental stress may not turn off so well after that stress abates.

Growing animals through the phase where a pattern (good or bad) tends to be set up for life is optimal/detrimental, to meet the needs of both the keeper and the kept (for the good and the optimal). Both needs are appropriate to consider. Good quality growth is good. Stopping and starting it, and keeping it constrained by wild type variables has no bearing on the animal as the constraints imposed by a wild life would have on a captive animal. They can inform us of how to meet optimal, but simply replicating the wild is not, IMO, being optimal.

We have decided that for ourselves, it is not a great leap to decided that for our captives. At least with out animals we are allowed to practice eugenics with out to much activism getting involved (it's not against the law).

As for this study W & I, it could be much better, I've shared what I think are it's shortcoming elsewhere on TFO. There was poor symmetry to sum it up. And it is only correlative, it does not show or demonstrate causation, which seems to be the 'bone' of interest in this thread's OP.

This is my question:

Without the burden of having to do the experiment - what limited variables, such as W and I did, explain your idea of an ex-situ limited variable experiment that would depict the result of humidity, and or diet etc, that compels or limits pyramiding?

Doing the research would be a great follow-through, but parse out an experiment that would give statistically significant (yeah redundant) results indicating anything, single or covariants, that can be applied in captivity to eliminate or reduce the factors that create tortoise monsters. 

So even if the experiment is not done, you have the precedent of first idea here on TFO, yeah?

So far it would be a fair explanation that higher RH in a micro climate (closed chamber) works. This also emulates a zoo exhibit system that is still in place and has been in use for 40 years at the Fresno Chaffee Zoo. Some chelonians there in the same chambers for well over 20 years, all indoors all the time. Doing as well as wild counterparts.

Another off topic and now alternate thread is regarding over head artificial heat. There is a big difference between having an ambient just below the operating temps for an animal, with a slightly hotter spot, than having an entire enclosure heated with a hot spot. That is why I have suggested a use of many lower wattage heat sources over a wider area, against an ambient that is at just slightly less than what the heat spot/area creates.

Among others, mikeh (by description here on TFO) has sorted this out with different mechanisms as has Yvonne (as I've see it).

There are many studies of in-situ and ex-situ examples of "operating" temperatures of many chelonians, as well as studies indicating basking is not necessarily a straightforward thermoregulatory behavior. But I digress into the abyss of an informative, fun, messy topic.

Any ways:

Propose the study that would subvert the W & I study, towards the purpose of better understanding of the physiology of pyramiding, or even the correlative variables of physiology of pyramiding for ex-situ inside management of chelonians.

Yeah outside this and outside that. What IS the indoor controlled climate/diet tight variable control experiment that will segway to common pet tortoise keeping, indoors?


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## FLINTUS

Tom said:


> Further, no one is claiming that any wild species lives in super high humidity 24/7/365.


I have to disagree with that. Kinixys erosa, homeana and chelonoidis denticulata will rarely be found in areas of less than 80% RH. Chelonoidis carbonaria and the species of indotestudo and manouria-depending on which part of the range they occupy-will very rarely be found in less than 60% RH. 
I do not doubt that humidity has a role in maintaining good health for most species of chelonia, however, I disagree with how unnatural the humidity is. While the shell is smooth, I think long term there may be some negative affects. If constant high humidity-yes they'd have it in the wild, but for very short periods at a time- is providing smooth growth, then it is obviously compensating for something else which is lacking in the care of these guys which I'm sure as the whole group of captive bred humidity raised sulcatas and leopards get older we'll find more about. Tom, even you have to agree this is unnatural compared to the wild. But the shell is growing smoothly at least. So I would guess there is still something which has not been figured out in terms of sulcata and leopard care.


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## Testudoresearch

wellington said:


> I am totally confused now. That article/study shows high humidity played a big role in the test tortoises not pyramiding, while the dry tortoises did pyramid. Isn't this going against what you are trying to say and discredit Tom for saying? Isn't this the total opposite from what you are trying to promote?



Let me repeat.

1. No-one is trying to "discredit" anyone. That's a truly bizarre and utterly baseless suggestion.
2. No-one is saying that humidity is not a factor. 
3. What is being discussed are the links between assumed cause and effect, and the *physiological mechanisms *involved (the title of the thread).

I hope that clears up the confusion for you.


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## Testudoresearch

I have no desire to see this very useful thread deteriorate into a slanging match. I choose therefore not to respond to some of the comments made above. 

I will simply state some facts, however.

1. Regarding my supposed "lack of experience" with leopard tortoises this needs addressing. The facts are that I personally kept leopard tortoises for 20 years and bred them regularly (from 1984 to 2005). I was also heavily involved with the handling of illegal trade seizures and worked closely with customs and wildlife agencies in several countries. In that capacity I was often responsible for the day-to-day care and rehabilitation of up to 200 animals at a time. I was further adviser to government agencies in Tanzanier and Kenya on both rehabilitation and captive breeding programs for G. pardalis. I also studied G. pardalis at many locations in South Africa and recorded data from approximately 400 wild specimens. I also produced a 90 minute long TV program on the ecology and conservation of tortoises in South Africa that featured G. pardalis extensively. I am still a consultant to several zoos and rescue centers where both G. pardalis and G. sulcata are maintained. I no longer keep them personally, however, as I now work more or less exclusively with Testudo species and am in daily contact with wild specimens. If you wish to call that "lack of experience" by all means carry on.

2. Please do not lose sight of the fact that I have not once denied - ever - that there is a real effect from environmental humidity. So, I am not saying, and never have, that Richard Fife, Tom, or anyone else is wrong when they report that. Quite the contrary, way back in 2000 I wrote a chapter in one book entitled "Further Insights into the Nutritional Requirements and Disorders of Tortoises; Protein, Energy, and Environment". In that, I said this:


_"One interesting aspect of the environment-development interface that requires further investigation is the possible impact of localized humidity upon rapidly growing keratin. Keratin is a fibrous protein formed of coiled polypeptide chains that are combined into supercoils of several polypeptides linked by disulphide bonds between adjacent cysteine amino acids. Aggregates of these supercoils form microfibrils which are embedded in a protein matrix. The resulting structure is strong, but relatively elastic. Keratin is also hygroscopic - to the extent that for many years human hair was employed in laboratory humidity measuring equipment as the sensor mechanism. Hair comprises dead keratin cells, while the keratin of a tortoise's shell is living, however, there is undoubtedly a differential in the fluid content between inner and outer surfaces (even though the thickness involved is only a fraction of a millimeter) especially in hot, arid environments). *It has been noted that carapace â€˜pyramidingâ€™ tends to be worse when animals are reared at high growth rates in very dry as opposed to the same rate of growth in more humid environments*. It is interesting to speculate upon the possible mechanisms for this. The most probable cause is that the fluid content differential in very dry environments creates physical stresses within the keratin layer that have the effect of exerting influence upon the rapidly developing (and relatively plastic) underlying bone"

"Feeding, growth and environment are inseparable in ectotherms. It is impossible to consider one factor without reference to others. In this sense, it is quite true to state that environment plays a critical role in growth and development. It does so, however, because it influences food intake, feeding behavior, and the way in which the consumed foods are processed. Bone structure and development is not directly affected by temperature, water or ambient humidity, and it is quite* erroneous to assume any such direct link*, save for the *possible influence of humidity upon the keratin outer layer of a turtle's shell as discussed above.* The primary causal factor of growth is food intake and utilization. Carapace deformities are primarily caused by nutritional disorders, but *may be amplified under certain environmental conditions.*"_

That is entirely accurate and I stand by it. We have subsequently learned a lot more, but in general, that remains the position. I actually do not see how this is antagonistic to anyone. Do remember - that was published in the year 2000, exactly 14 years ago....

3. We have subsequently done a lot more work to pin this down and tie these elements together. This involved a very, very substantial investment in both technology and in time. _As a direct result, we now understand the actual physiological mechanisms._ Humidity is certainly a factor. So is the peculiar mode of cell proliferation in certain species of chelonians. So too is diet and the formation of healthy, strong bone. We also are beginning to get a much clearer picture of the role of basking lamps, their acute dehydrating effects, and are just _beginning_ to see how various IR wavelengths can have profound effects on living tissue. This is all very new stuff. It is not even in the textbooks yet. 

4. Points of divergence from some commentators. I have said (and stand by it) that claims of a *direct effect* upon the internal skeleton by external ambient humidity are unsupported by any evidence whatsoever and that there is no known mechanism that could facilitate this. That is why I have referred to the supposed humidity-bone linkage as a "red herring". It is not what is happening. The direct effect is on the keratin. Not the bone. The bone then deforms to "follow" the keratin.

A summary of those findings was first presented in September 2010 at a conference in Valencia and online in November 2010

I also do not agree with those who claim that juveniles of semi-arid habitat tortoises spend a large proportion of their lives in "high humidity" situations. Certainly not in ultra-high humidity situations. I have personally been avidly collecting field data on this since 1990 and have an absolute mass of measurements from all over the place... and I consequently feel that quite a lot of the information out there on this is very misleading. 

My task has not been to "discredit" anyone or prove anyone's husbandry methods "wrong" - but to* investigate the causes and to identify the mechanisms involved. * Nothing more. That was and is the sole object of everything I and those I have worked with on this over the past 14 years has been directed towards. 

I have no desire to personally "discredit" Weisner and Iben either. They had some good ideas, but the execution of the project was (unfortunately) not very good.


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## Yvonne G

Testudoresearch said:


> I also do not agree with those who claim that juveniles of semi-arid habitat tortoises spend a large proportion of their lives in "high humidity" situations. Certainly not in ultra-high humidity situations. I have personally been avidly collecting field data on this since 1990 and have an absolute mass of measurements from all over the place... and I consequently feel that quite a lot of the information out there on this is very misleading.




I'm old, so my memory fails me quite a bit, but it is MY contention, and I THINK other's who believe in the high humidity theory, that you use the high humidity for the first year of the hatchling's life. After that you start weaning them off the high humidity and they start living most of the day outside. So, in my case (and I THINK in Tom's case too) we're only talking about the first year of a hatchling's life.


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## Team Gomberg

Yvonne G said:


> I'm old, so my memory fails me quite a bit, but it is MY contention, and I THINK other's who believe in the high humidity theory, that you use the high humidity for the first year of the hatchling's life. After that you start weaning them off the high humidity and they start living most of the day outside. So, in my case (and I THINK in Tom's case too) we're only talking about the first year of a hatchling's life.



Yes, Yvonne you are correct. 

My leopard hatchlings spend their time in the high humidity with only a little time outside at first. As they grow in size so does their time outdoors. By the time my largest leopard was a year old (5") he was outside all day long in a heavily planted pen and could choose his own preferred micro climate. Here in SoCal that means no 80%+ RH. 
He still slept inside but has recently moved outside full time at 6".


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## Testudoresearch

Yvonne G said:


> Testudoresearch said:
> 
> 
> 
> I also do not agree with those who claim that juveniles of semi-arid habitat tortoises spend a large proportion of their lives in "high humidity" situations. Certainly not in ultra-high humidity situations. I have personally been avidly collecting field data on this since 1990 and have an absolute mass of measurements from all over the place... and I consequently feel that quite a lot of the information out there on this is very misleading.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm old, so my memory fails me quite a bit, but it is MY contention, and I THINK other's who believe in the high humidity theory, that you use the high humidity for the first year of the hatchling's life. After that you start weaning them off the high humidity and they start living most of the day outside. So, in my case (and I THINK in Tom's case too) we're only talking about the first year of a hatchling's life.
Click to expand...


Let me play Devil's Advocate here and raise a couple of practical questions.

1. It is certainly not the case that those tortoises in the wild are being subjected to 80%+ RH and constant high temperatures (+26C) around the clock and for 365 days a year. They get some wetter, more humid periods, with some extremely arid, dry periods and some moderate periods. There are no constants in the wild. So... why do they allegedly need it in captivity? 

2. Why is the level of humidity being advised so high? Even in the 'rainy season' air humidity levels are not normally that high for extended periods. Air movements and the warm sun reduce levels very rapidly in those environments.

3. Note what Richard Fife has said. That spraying the carapaces alone appears to produce a similar result to the use of humid hides. When you consider the properties of keratin, it is logical why this would have an effect, producing an intense temporary 're-hydration' effect. Provided you do not 'bake this off' too quickly with over-exposure to basking lamps, to me this would seem a far safer and more natural approach, as it would approximate the dew point cycle that occurs in even quite hot, arid habitats under certain circumstances (do not confuse the dew point with relative humidity. This is a fundamental technical error that I see constantly on pet keepers forums). Here is a helpful chart that demonstrates the difference.







Also note that Richard Fife does *not *subject his tortoises to 24/7 constant high humidity. He provides a "humid hide" only and the rest of the area is what he calls "dry" (I do not have current information on what exact level that is). My question is this. If Richard Fife is indeed raising nicely formed tortoises (including leopards and sulcatas) using just the humid hide approach (and I have no reason to disbelieve him - he is a genuinely good, skilled keeper and has shown great dedication to trying to solve this problem), why are enforced 24/7 super-saturated conditions required as advocated by some on this forum? The two situations are entirely different.


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## Dizisdalife

Testudoresearch said:


> Let me play Devil's Advocate here and raise a couple of practical questions.
> 
> 1. It is certainly not the case that those tortoises in the wild are being subjected to 80%+ RH and constant high temperatures (+26C) around the clock and for 365 days a year. They get some wetter, more humid periods, with some extremely arid, dry periods and some moderate periods. There are no constants in the wild. So... why do they allegedly need it in captivity?



You'll get no argument from me about the absence of constants in the wild. The short answer here is: this is what has worked in captivity. We are talking baby tortoises here, in a small enclosure, with hot lamps. Very drying, and you know how quickly they can dehydrate. I am sure you have seen this, right? Serious problem. Much worse than pyramiding, I think. For the most part these small enclosures are void of plant life or any thing else that would be found in the wild to hold the moisture that nature provides. They remind me, even the ones I used, of a prison cell. A water dish, a feeding dish, a basking rock, and a hide. 

Okay. So why keep it at a constant? I can only speak from my experience here. Once I began to see smooth growth I was unwilling to risk a lower humidity range for fear that the pyramiding would return. I did not start with a hatchling. My rescue was about 8 months and had started to pyramid. The high humidity arrested the pyramiding so I continued with it.



Testudoresearch said:


> 2. Why is the level of humidity being advised so high? Even in the 'rainy season' air humidity levels are not normally that high for extended periods. Air movements and the warm sun reduce levels very rapidly in those environments.



I have not spent any time in the wild observing the climate there. In the small enclosure for my baby sulcata when the humidity fell, even for a short period of time, the carapace got dry. Because of the hot lamps we use in these small tanks I am afraid of dehydration as much as pyramiding. Yes, there are other ways to prevent dehydration, but once again, the short answer is this is what works.



Testudoresearch said:


> 3. Note what Richard Fife has said. That spraying the carapaces alone appears to produce a similar result to the use of humid hides. When you consider the properties of keratin, it is logical why this would have an effect, producing an intense temporary 're-hydration' effect. Provided you do not 'bake this off' too quickly with over-exposure to basking lamps, to me this would seem a far safer and more natural approach, as it would approximate the dew point cycle that occurs in even quite hot, arid habitats under certain circumstances (do not confuse the dew point with relative humidity. This is a fundamental technical error that I see constantly on pet keepers forums). Here is a helpful chart that demonstrates the difference.



It has been two years now since my tortoise has lived in an indoor enclosure and the tendinitis from squeezing that spray gun trigger is finally gone. The effect is temporary, it does bake off too quick, and from what I see the tortoises are over-exposed to hot lamps. I learned that tip here on TFO. Outdoors I just turn on the sprinklers or use the "mist" setting on my garden hose nozzle. Lots easier on the tendons.



Testudoresearch said:


> Also note that Richard Fife does *not *subject his tortoises to 24/7 constant high humidity. He provides a "humid hide" only and the rest of the area is what he calls "dry" (I do not have current information on what exact level that is). My question is this. If Richard Fife is indeed raising nicely formed tortoises (including leopards and sulcatas) using just the humid hide approach (and I have no reason to disbelieve him - he is a genuinely good, skilled keeper and has shown great dedication to trying to solve this problem), why are enforced 24/7 super-saturated conditions required as advocated by some on this forum? The two situations are entirely different.


I have recently heard a little of this. Very interesting, but I feel that I haven't got the whole story and therefore have no comment. It just proves that we don't know all there is to know. Super-saturated is is not what is suggested here, I think you know that and are just digging the methods where you can. I will tell you though, my baby spent most of his time in a humid hide. I would guess that if Richard Fife's babies do the same they are spend most of their time in a 80% humidity environment.

There is one member of TFO that has a 19 month old smooth sulcata he has raised since hatchling with no spot light or CHE for heat. He has made his own heated tiles that warm the enclosure to the desired temperatures. Beautiful specimen. I am confident he has a humid hide, not 100% sure. If Richard Fife is doing something like this I would expect his tortoises to be smooth. See, there just isn't enough info presented here for us to really know what Fife is doing differently.

Other TFO members are sure to have a different slant on answering these questions. There is certainly more to be said. But heck, it's not what you find in the wild, it's just what we find works in captivity. 

When I first became a member of TFO the most common Thread title was "my tortoise has a runny nose". So most of the discussion was about respiratory infections and treatments. Tortoises were being kept in open top enclosures with poor heat control and little or no accurate temperature measurements. Suggesting the use of "closed chambers" with constant heat and humidity has benefited that aspect of caring for a baby tortoise as well as helping with the pyramiding. We amateur keepers need simple instructions. What I am saying is that the "constant" humidity level, or the "constant" temperature level is maybe more necessary for the keeper than it is for the tortoise. Again, some of our more experienced keepers will have different views on this.


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## paludarium

While human needs are satisfied by 45 minutes exposure to the sun a week, reptile veterinarian and researcher Dr. Alison Alberts states that 30 minutes exposure to the sun a day is sufficient for green iguanas. What about the tortoises? I don't know. But in 1994 Charles Innis already pointed out that a tortoise that had been maintained outside in a warm sunny climate during the summer would probably synthesize and store enough vitamin D3 to last it through the winter. 

According to Medicine and Surgery of Tortoises and Turtles(2004), *the vitamin D metabolism in chelonians is poorly understood.* Although Ulrey & Bennet in 1999 reviewed some chelonia data:
The serum 25[OH]D level in adult desert tortoises housed outdoors in Nevada was 8.2 ng/ml (n = 14) with a range from less than 5 ng/ml (n = 3) to 16.5 ng/ml. Also the apparently healthy juvenile desert tortoises and juvenile African spurred tortoises housed indoors and fed diets containing about 2000 IU vitamin D3/Kg had serum concentrations of 25[OH]D less than 5 ng/ml. No measurable changes in serum levels were seen after oral dosing with vitamin D2/D3. What did "apparently healthy" mean here?

In his research Plasma concentrations of 25-hydroxycholecalciferol in 22 captive tortoises (Testudo species) published in 2008 Eatwell studied 22 tortoises of the Testudo species. The tortoises received no artificial light but were exposed to unfiltered sunlight in southern England during the summer months and hibernated during the winter. There were no dietary sources of cholecalciferol, but the diet had a calciumhosphorus ratio of approximately 7.4:1 and the calcium constituted 2.4 per cent of the dry matter; it contained 20.7 per cent protein, 5.2 per cent fat and 45.6 per cent crude fiber. The result showed that *none of the tortoises became ill or died during the study, and no significance signs of disease were observed* and the results of the blood biochemical analyses and hematological profiles were within reference ranges reported previously. The author found that the concentrations of 25-HCC measured in his study were comparable to those previously reported in tortoises housed indoors (Ullrey and Bernard). The author also stated that the use of artificial UVB sources should be considered when tortoises are kept at higher latitudes, *if it is found *that the concentrations of 25-HCC in wild tortoises are similar to those of lizards. Eatwell's referneces did not show us the data that of wild tortoises but the lizards. Maybe the tortoises in England only need high calcium diets instead of artificial UVB to maintain their health if they are exposed to unfiltered sunlight during the summer months. I don't know. 

If a medical doctor extrapolates these findings of the tortoises to the human health. What would happen to him? And what about the reactions of his/her patients? That must be very interesting.

Erich


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## lilacdragon

Dizisdalife said:


> The short answer here is: this is what has worked in captivity. We are talking baby tortoises here, in a small enclosure, with hot lamps. Very drying, and you know how quickly they can dehydrate. I am sure you have seen this, right? Serious problem. Much worse than pyramiding, I think. For the most part these small enclosures are void of plant life or any thing else that would be found in the wild to hold the moisture that nature provides. They remind me, even the ones I used, of a prison cell. A water dish, a feeding dish, a basking rock, and a hide.



But that's _dreadful_! A "prison cell".
That's exactly what these "tortoise starter kits" I see in so many pet stores are... prison cells.
At the risk of offending hundreds of people, which I do _not_ intend to do deliberately... *Why on earth are we improving methods of growing tortoises in prison cells?* Shouldn't we be decrying this in the strongest possible terms, and instead be developing methods of housing tortoises in far better conditions altogether?

I totally agree with Dizisdalife in her analysis of the reasons why these prisons cause abnormalities. I would add that not only are the lamps too hot, they also produce FAR too narrow beams. The tortoises are heating the middle of the carapace far more than the rest of the body. That is a disaster waiting to happen...

Frances


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## Testudoresearch

paludarium said:


> According to Medicine and Surgery of Tortoises and Turtles(2004), *the vitamin D metabolism in chelonians is poorly understood.*



What I don't understand is why you can write all that and still refuse to address a couple of simple, straightforward, direct questions that have been put to you more than once...

A reminder (again):


I did earlier ask you some specific questions which you have totally ignored. Please answer them. I am sure if you can find time to attack the methodology of highly respected researchers like Justin Gerlach you can at least find 10 minutes to answer some direct questions that will allow us to evaluate your contributions. The first questions concerned the Weisner & Iben paper:

Simple question.
*
Do you find the methodology used in that study valid and acceptable?*

Second question.

*Define:

Low humidity (typical range)
High humidity (typical range)
*
Third question:
*
How much time have you personally spent in arid and semi-arid habitats? Where is your data? Photos? Evidence that supports the claims you make? Not second-hand or anecdotal. YOUR data - please? *

You constantly criticize other people's work. It is only fair and reasonable that we get the chance to assess yours. Please direct us to where we can see it. 

Until you do so, I feel it is utterly pointless engaging in any further dialogue with you.


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## lilacdragon

Hi, Erich.



paludarium said:


> While human needs are satisfied by 45 minutes exposure to the sun a week, reptile veterinarian and researcher Dr. Alison Alberts states that 30 minutes exposure to the sun a day is sufficient for green iguanas.


Indeed. But green iguanas don't wear clothes.
And how many humans get 45 minutes exposure to the sun a week? In temperate climates, modern humans typically expose no more than 10% of their skin to daylight (head and bare arms and hands) and as for sunlight - how often do people employed indoors actually go outside in their lunch hour, and how many days per year is it actually sunny during the lunch break?



> In his research Plasma concentrations of 25-hydroxycholecalciferol in 22 captive tortoises (Testudo species) published in 2008 Eatwell studied 22 tortoises of the Testudo species. The tortoises received no artificial light but were exposed to unfiltered sunlight in southern England during the summer months and hibernated during the winter. .....The result showed that *none of the tortoises became ill or died during the study, and no significance signs of disease were observed* and the results of the blood biochemical analyses and hematological profiles were within reference ranges reported previously.



Yes, that was an interesting study. But "unfiltered sunlight in Southern England" is hardly an advertisement for good vitamin D levels in a species adapted for a much higher UV Index during morning basking periods? 
(A recent study conducted at Bristol Zoo, in Southern England, found that the sunlight was insufficient to generate adequate vitamin D in outdoor-housed callitrichid primates..)



> The author found that the concentrations of 25-HCC measured in his study were comparable to those previously reported in tortoises housed indoors (Ullrey and Bernard).



This is not surprising. And not just because of the low strength of English sun.
Serum 25(OH)D levels in humans are often compared to "those previously reported" ... and then considered "normal", because the "normal range" was established, long before vitD metabolism was well understood in humans, by sampling large numbers of deficient human beings!



> If a medical doctor extrapolates these findings of the tortoises to the human health. What would happen to him? And what about the reactions of his/her patients? That must be very interesting.



But Erich, there is no need for that extrapolation to be done. It has already been done. It is mainstream medical thinking! It goes like this: "We are all "normal" and we don't "normally" get rickets, so living a modern lifestyle with virtually no sun exposure and low 25(OH)D3 levels is absolutely fine."
But it isn't optimal. It really isn't.....

Frances


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## Testudoresearch

The Weisner and Iben paper - some thoughts

The paper by Wiesner and Iben has been uncritically cited numerous times and used frequently as key source material in discussions and reference texts related to the problem of so-called â€œpyramid growthâ€ in tortoises. One of the most striking recent examples is this statement, by world famous chelonian expert Peter C. H. Pritchard in his chapter â€œEvolution and Structure of the Turtle Shellâ€ which features prominently in â€œBiology of Turtlesâ€ (CRC Press, 2008) pages 71-72:

â€œIt has long been believed that the condition resulted primarily from a diet too rich in protein, and an alternative cause _was believed_ to be an unnatural ratio of calcium to phosphate (sic) in the diet ... secondary causes _were attributed _to overfeeding, dietary fiber, temperature, UV light and so on... however _current belief_ is that the condition derives from excessively dry conditions and when hatchlings are raised on a_ substrate of wet sphagnum_, shells will develop normally (Weisner & Iben, 2003).

My italics. Note how other factors are dismissed by use of the past tense, and â€œcurrent beliefâ€ identifies â€œexcessively dry conditionsâ€ as the sole cause and â€œwet sphagnumâ€ as the sole solution. The inconvenient fact that â€œwet sphagnumâ€ (or anything like it) is not typically present at all in semi-arid tortoise habitats is entirely overlooked... and no physiological mechanism of any kind is suggested that could account for such an effect. 

Furthermore, the above quotation is not directed merely at Leopard and African Spurred tortoises. It is directed at _all tortoises_, without exception or limitation. 

With such uncritical acceptance, and such widespread and influential citation it is extremely important that the claims made by that paper, and the methodology employed to arrive at them, are indeed examined most carefully and with a critical eye. It is also important to highlight and identify cases where the paper is misinterpreted and misquoted as this creates yet another layer of obfuscation and confusion. 

*Humidity measurement and control*

The most striking criticism of the data cited in their paper "Influence of environmental humidity and dietary protein on pyramidal growth of carapaces in African Spurred tortoises (Geochelone sulcata)" is that the bands of experimental humidity employed are so profoundly overlapping and are of such wide individual range. Sulcata Sandy and Frances have already highlighted this glaring and fundamental defect that runs through the whole paper. The terminology used is also contradictory in the extreme. For example, they define what they term â€œdry environmental conditionsâ€ as consisting of the ranges â€œ24.3-57.8 % and 30.6-74.8% relative humidityâ€. They then go on to define â€œhumid conditionsâ€ as comprising â€œ45-99% relative humidityâ€. It is difficult to know what to make of this, when a relative humidity of (for example) 45% is described as â€œhumidâ€ in one sentence and then classed as â€œdryâ€ in another.

It is also the case that very few ecologists or geographers would normally accept relative humidity of 74.8% as in any way representing dry conditions, or 45% as representing humid conditions (such conditions are normally defined as those containing a high percentage of water vapor; noticeably moist). The use of such inconsistent and erratic definitions applied to the measured relative humidities must therefore give rise to serious concern and further confuses the earlier claims made in respect of â€œdrynessâ€ or â€œhumidâ€ conditions allegedly experienced in natural habitats. 

The criticism of the methodology employed goes far beyond mere terminology, however. The actual bands used in the experiment are cited as follows:

Group A: 24.3-57.8%
Group B: 24.7-55.5%
Group C: 30.6-75.8%
Group D: 47.9-99%
Group E: 45-99%

The authors state that these measurements represent the â€œmean of eight weekly measured values of the maximum and minimum relative humidityâ€ in the experimental enclosures employed which consisted of a series of 100 X 80 X 80 cm glass terraria fitted with two sliding glass doors. Hiding places or â€œcavesâ€ made of brick measuring 30 X 65 X 10 cm were provided in each enclosure, and the substrate used was the same in all units, comprising 4-5 cm of â€œbark humusâ€. The humidity levels cited in the above table were â€œmeasured directly under the top paneâ€, which would mean at the very top of the inside of the unit close to the heat lamps (were the heat lamps on or off at the time?). They took a second set of humidity measurements in the caves of the â€œthree humid terrariaâ€ (no mention at all is made of any such measurements in the â€œdryâ€ terraria) which it is claimed were â€œ10-15% higherâ€ (than what?). It is unfortunately entirely unclear what these actual measurements were as no actual figures are given. If indeed the measurements were â€œ10-15% higherâ€ however, and were calculated on the same basis as Table 1, that would mean that humidity levels of up to 114% were achieved. This is a scientific impossibility (the maximum theoretical level of RH is 100%), therefore it is likely that they really meant â€œ10-15% higher than the average ambientâ€ - but they do not say this, and they provide no figures for what those averages might have been, so again, we are left without a clue as to what conditions these tortoises were really subjected to. 

Also, no temperature measurements of _any kind_ are provided anywhere in the paper. It is unclear why the authors considered this critical information unimportant. Information on temperature is absolutely essential when considering relative humidity and the dew point, for example. Temperature information is also extremely important when evaluating any method of tortoise maintenance. 

Where to begin? Only *eight *weekly measurements with just the mean of the maximum and minimum values cited? This is statistically insignificant. As Frances eloquently points out, it could also mean almost _anything_ in real terms. The range is so huge, and the method of measurement so unreliable and imprecise we have no idea at all what the true average relative humidity was for each group! None whatsoever. How can you possibly reach any valid conclusion on the effects of a particular level of relative humidity, when you are subjecting the tortoises to anything from 45% to 99% for unspecified periods as they did with â€˜Group Eâ€™ for example, or 30.6% to 74.8% in â€˜Group Câ€™? Most people would regard 30% as quite dry and 75% as quite humid......the range is so enormous for each group that the results are completely meaningless. _You cannot possibly infer anything from those results. _

We simply have no idea at all of how long these animals were subjected to these various levels of humidity. Take â€˜Group Câ€™ again. In any 24 hour period, were they subjected to 30.6% for 6 hours and 74.8% for 18 hours? Or the reverse? Or some other period? We can only guess.

The method of taking a once weekly measurement from the very top of the tank is also incredibly misleading and inaccurate. Of far more relevance would be a set of continuously recorded levels at just above the substrate taken at various points (near the animals) - but they did not even measure these and we have no idea what they were. They would certainly not be the same as what was recorded at the top of the tanks where the heat sources were situated. Higher? Lower? We simply have no idea (again). It is also usual in trials like this to specify what equipment was used to obtain the measurements. This is important, as there is likely to be a big difference between the results obtained from say, a greenhouse hygrometer and a piece of properly calibrated precision laboratory equipment. The authors were aware of this, because they do cite the make and model of the atomic absorption spectrophotometer used. They fail to say what they used for the most important measurements of all, however... the hygrometers. This is a very disturbing omission. Did they use the same instrument for all the measurements? Was it calibrated? We just donâ€™t know. 

The method of humidity control employed is said to have consisted of 40 X 40 X 15 cm plastic bowls filled with demineralized water and â€œatomisers to produce fogâ€. The use of a â€œfoggerâ€ type atomizer to produce humidity is also problematic. These do not directly produce humidity. They produce water droplets that are then vaporized by temperature. We have no idea what these temperatures were, as already pointed out. They are very prone to producing a â€˜cold fogâ€™ on the bottom of the tank while creating very high humidity at the top... amphibian keepers like them for this very reason. They also produce a profound evaporative, localized chilling effect toward the bottom of the terraria. Anyone who has ever used one will recognize this characteristic. _We again have no idea what the effects of this really were in this trial, because insufficient data is provided._ We can be absolutely certain, however, that what was happening at â€œground levelâ€ next to the animals would profoundly differ from what was recorded on those mere eight (!) occasions at the very top of the tanks.

Unfortunately, from an experimental point of view, other factors that would substantially influence the allegedly â€œcontrolledâ€ humidity within these enclosures were also present: in each, a 13 cm diameter dish with drinking water, and the provision of soaked pellet food and â€œendive saladâ€. These would both evaporate adding to humidity within the units in an uncontrolled manner under the heat lamps. As so little environmental data is provided, it is impossible to guess what impact this may have had. It is disconcerting that this possibility does not even seem to have been considered by those conducting the experiment. It would have been preferable if feeding and drinking could have been conducted in a separate, isolated area within the â€œcontrolledâ€ environment to eliminate this variable.

*General maintenance*

The authors state that while the animals were provided with â€œlight for activityâ€ for eleven hours a day, the UVB tube and heating light was only turned on for three hours in the morning (9-12 am) and 90 minutes each afternoon (3-4.30 pm). This is a quite unusual regime and is certainly not typical of what most captive tortoises experience. It would certainly have had some quite profound effects upon feeding, activity and upon digestive efficiency. It is yet another strange and unquantifiable variable present in this study. We cannot know what effects (if any) it had on the results or the behaviour of the tortoises. 

One effect we can predict with confidence is that if the heat lamps were turned on for three hours in the morning, and again for 90 minutes in the afternoon, this would have had an immediate and massive impact on the RH experienced within the units, producing either a considerable rise, or a severe drying effect depending upon the amount of water evaporated within the unit. It is quite impossible it had no effect at all. This very considerable variable is not even mentioned by the authors and absolutely no data as to the levels that resulted is presented. The net result is that these tortoises experienced wildly fluctuating, unspecified levels of RH on a daily basis. It is hard to reconcile this with the claims subsequently made as to the effects of any one particular level or levels of relative humidity.
*
Diet*

There are a number of other serious methodological criticisms of this study that can be made, including the failure to adequate monitor and regulate actual calcium and phosphorus intake for the duration of the experiment, which would appear to have been highly variable and subject to individual preference (loose cuttlefish bone was provided in each enclosure and a tortoise could consume as much â€“ or as little â€“ of this as it preferred). Given that calcium intake and overal calcium to phosphorus balance is such a critical factor in bone development, the lack of control here is very worrying from the point of overal experimental validity. The authors conclude, however, that even on what they call a â€œhigher proteinâ€ diet, the tortoises raised in what they call the â€œhigh humidityâ€ (45-99% RH!) environment of Group E had less â€œpyramidingâ€ than those raised on a lower protein diet in Groups A and B.

Curiously, the three lateral views of example tortoises from Groups B, C and D (no images whatever from groups A and E were published)_ all show growth abnormalities to some degree._ There is an apparent slightly reduced level of deformity on the example tortoise from Group D compared to that of Group B. However, due to the lack of control over calcium intake and Calcium-Phosphorus balance (cuttlefish bone is rich in phosphorus) we cannot be sure how much of this effect might be due to any difference in humidity, or how much might be the result of different amounts of cuttlefish bone consumption or of food intake. It appears no attempt whatever was made to measure or record this variable. A very wide range of blood calcium, phosphorus values were recorded in each group throughout the study, but interpreting it is difficult when such unquantified variables are present. We also have no idea how truly representative the very few animals depicted really are. 

It is interesting to contrast keeperâ€™s often aggressive reactions to discussions of this topic on the internet, with their typically unquestioning acceptance of the validity of this paper. I tested this myself. Whenever discussing the matter I was met with demands for photographs to â€œproveâ€ my results. Not just one or two photographs - but numerous photographs were often demanded. Even when photos were produced, their genuineness was questioned. Contrast this with the fact that this paper contains only three tortoises (out of fifty) that were depicted in photographs of rather poor quality, and that representatives of two of the experimental groups were not depicted at all. One might be inclined to reflect on the double standards evident here!

Finally - but certainly not least - the values of dietary protein provided in the diet are disturbing. By just about any normally accepted chelonian nutritional standards,* all of these tortoises without exception were fed a high protein, highly digestible (low fiber, 10.9 to 13.4%) diet. *Not one group was tested using a diet that could be defined as â€œlow proteinâ€ or â€œhigh fiberâ€. The lowest protein level provided was 13.7% and the highest, a rather staggering 30.7% (both DM basis). It would have been far more realistic (and useful) if a genuine â€œlowâ€ protein, high fiber option had been included. This could be defined as something offering circa 7.5% protein (DM) and at least 30% fiber content, which more closely represents a typical â€˜wildâ€™ dietary profile. _There is no question whatever that the dietary regime used would have promoted artificially high rates of growth in all of the groups._ This fact is admitted by the authors.
*
Misquotes and distortions*
In stark contrast to the claims of what I might term â€œvocal supportersâ€ of this particular paper (who consistently misinterpret it and misquote it), at no time do the authors themselves actually seek to deny the role of protein intake in the development of â€˜Pyramidal Growth Syndromeâ€™ (PGS), indeed, in their summary they clearly state â€œit is understandable that the abnormal combination of a dry environment *and a persistent high level of protein* may lead to health disorders, such as PGS. Such management conditions are very common both in private and institutional situations, which probably explains the high prevalence of PGS in tortoises in captivityâ€ and go on to state* â€œsome influence of dietary protein is probableâ€.* Quite how anyone could read that and reach the conclusion that protein intake was considered â€œirrelevantâ€ entirely escapes me. 

They also openly admit that â€œthe combination of dry environmental conditions and comparatively *high growth rates* induced by a nutritionally dense diet led to pyramidal growth in the African spurred tortoises of this studyâ€, thereby also acknowledging the key role of high growth rates and diet - another link which â€œsupportersâ€ of this paper have consistently misrepresented.* Do not forget the fact that all of the tortoises in this study - without exception - developed â€œpyramidingâ€ to some degree or other!* Not a single really smooth, deformity-free animal was produced out of the entire fifty. If this is a model for success, I must be missing something. 

While I decry the methodology of this particular study, and many of the conclusions reached, I do actually agree with them on those particular points. High growth rates, promoted by nutritionally â€œdenseâ€ diets are also a factor and must be considered along with environmental influences. Each of these factors is involved and we need to consider them all. We should not concentrate on just one aspect to the exclusion of the others.

There is one other widespread distortion and massive misunderstanding of what this paper proposes.* These authors absolutely did not advocate keeping tortoises at constant levels of very high humidity*. Nowhere do they even suggest that. What they actually say is very different. They simply say that â€œareas with a relative humidity of nearly 100% for hiding should be provided to the tortoises at all timesâ€. This is not at all the same thing as forcing animals to endure constant levels of high humidity. They are specifically referring to the provision of a â€œhumid hideâ€ where a tortoise can retreat - voluntarily - on a temporary basis - *not recommending an enforced 24/7 â€œsaunaâ€ type environment with no means of escape*. This latter is, unfortunately, an apt description of the conditions adopted by some keepers who refer to this paper as their inspiration.... where constant round-the-clock 80-90% humidity at high temperatures (26C+) is the only environment ever available to them. Such conditions deprive those animals of thermoregulation opportunities, subject them to constant levels of humidity that would only be experienced on an infrequent basis in nature, and which could have unknown metabolic and physical consequences over the long term. 

It is a strange and somewhat ironic fact that the authors of this paper were really very close to identifying the true causes of â€œPyramidal Growth Syndromeâ€. Their experimental methodology may have been defective, but the link between humidity and this type of growth is real. Had they persisted further, and inquired in far more detail into the one material that is extremely affected by humidity and that almost completely surrounds a chelonian - keratin - they might have arrived at a genuinely viable answer. Instead, they overlooked keratin entirely (the word is not mentioned once in the entire paper), and they sought refuge in vague, unsubstantiated and unviable theories involving â€œintracellular and intercellularâ€ pressure of osseous (bone) tissues caused by dehydration. Had they instead looked at what effect external hydration and dehydration has on keratin, and also at the two key modes of cell proliferation in chelonian keratin, a great deal of confusion would have been avoided.


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## Tom

FLINTUS said:


> Tom said:
> 
> 
> 
> Further, no one is claiming that any wild species lives in super high humidity 24/7/365.
> 
> 
> 
> I have to disagree with that. Kinixys erosa, homeana and chelonoidis denticulata will rarely be found in areas of less than 80% RH. Chelonoidis carbonaria and the species of indotestudo and manouria-depending on which part of the range they occupy-will very rarely be found in less than 60% RH.
Click to expand...


Duly noted FLINTUS. I should have been more specific. This discussion, for me, has been primarily about leopards and sulcatas, with a bit of Testudo thrown in. I apologize for my lack of specificity.


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## Tom

Frances, before I respond, let me first say thank you. Your post here is the sort of post that makes this forum great. Thank you for NOT closing your mind to the obvious, and NOT disregarding various people's lifetimes of firsthand experience because of lack of "scientific" citation. THANK YOU for furthering meaningful, useful discussion.



lilacdragon said:


> Tom, Paludarium and Andy, I'd really value your thoughts on this. And others too, of course...
> 
> Tom wrote:
> http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-83263-post-789689.html#pid789689
> 
> 
> 
> Using "un-natural" captive techniques to counter "un-natural" captive shortcomings makes perfect sense, AND it works very well if done correctly.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1. I'm sure most people, including all protagonists in this thread, would agree with me that tortoises are extremely highly evolved to thrive best in the precise microhabitat they evolved in. No-one is denying this fact. Therefore *if* we could provide that precise microhabitat, we would be offering the ideal environment for our tortoises. And conducting field research is the only way to discover what that microhabitat is.
Click to expand...


From what I have seen, there is not any "precision" at all to the natural habitats of our tortoises. The climate, seasons and annual variations are all over the board. There are drought years, rainy years, hot years, cold years, predator die offs, predator flourishes, parasite outbreaks, fruit windfalls, irregular carrion discoveries, etc. It is my view that our tortoises are adapted to handle all of the above, and much more. Meaning (to me) that they are able to SURVIVE through a lot of variables. This does NOT mean to me, that all of these survivable conditions are "optimal" for them. I think we can all recognize that some environmental conditions in the wild are "better" for them than others. In my view this is why captive animals of many species (not speaking of tortoises since no one has any idea what their lifespan really is) live on average twice as long as their wild counterparts. It is my goal, to at least attempt to simulate the "good" days that they would experience in the wild, and forego the "bad" days, when possible. It should be noted that my older tortoises all live outside and are subject to whatever mother nature throws at us. I try to compensate for this by providing species appropriate housing, like heated boxes for the leopards and sulcatas, or proper shelters for the temperate species to escape temperature extremes and rain. My tortoises still get rained on in winter and experience scorching summer heat, but through enclosure design I do my best to keep them in their comfort range. For example when our annual daily highs start consistently hitting 32C+ (usually June through October), I open up the burrow and start letting the sulcatas go underground to escape the summer heat. The leopards get lots of "summer rain" through my sprinkler heads.

To more directly answer your above statement, yes, field research is the only way to understand the habitats our animals come from, but 30 years of trial and error, have demonstrated the shortcomings of this understanding of wild conditions and attempting to simulate them. I have learned through the school of hard knocks that sometimes we have to think outside the box. Simulating what our understanding of leopard and sulcata habitats are, and what Andy is promoting here, has led to decades of pyramided tortoises. And I mean THOUSANDS upon THOUSANDS of them. It is so bad that when trinket makers make little tortoise figurines, that the figurines are modeled after pyramided tortoises, because that is all the trinket makers have ever seen.




lilacdragon said:


> 2. *However*, we acknowledge that *we cannot provide that precise microhabitat.* Therefore we should either cease keeping them in captivity, or find ways of overcoming these shortcomings. We have already accepted many very artificial aids, without the furore associated with this "humidity" thing. How many people go nuts when someone recommends adding vitamin/mineral supplements to food? Hardly anyone. In fact it is almost universally recommended. Yet oral vitamin D3 is not part of the normal diet of any herbivorous animal.
> Tom appears to have discovered something extremely interesting: that damp keratin somehow helps prevent pyramiding in his young tortoises.
> And here's something else that's also interesting. It doesn't even have to be associated with high humidity.
> In May 2010, Tom wrote: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-15137-post-135421.html#pid135421
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting that you should say this. I had a conversation with Richard Fife a couple of weeks ago and one of the things he told me about, was spraying the carapace. He felt like that alone would prevent pyramiding, but was not ready to go public with it, until he had done some more research on it.
Click to expand...


2 paragraphs above: Paragraph 1: I agree with your assessment of the situation of using captive methods to overcome the shortcomings of captive conditions. Personally, I would like to listen in when someone calls to tell Bill Zovickian that soaking his tortoises every day for the first four years is somehow wrong. Oh, to be a fly on THAT wall...
Still on the first paragraph, there is much debate about D3, and maybe Andy or the "we" he keeps referring to, can finally answer this for us. I saw a study done in the early 90's on green iguanas that proved that they cannot use dietary D3. I have to date seen NO study that proves tortoises CAN use dietary D3. Because of the low dosage offered in commercially available calcium with D3 supplements, it has been my experience that it does no harm, but I still don't know if it offers any benefit. In any case it is no concern of mine because my tortoises get sunshine year round, so I have no need for D3 supplementation, even though I typically did use it, at least sporadically, in the past. Perhaps someone could pose this question to Andy for me since I am on the "ignore" list for asking him to explain the origin of the photos he posted.

On to paragraph 2: Yes, I did discuss that with Mr. Fife. However, I learned of it from our friend and forum member Terry K. He was using the technique with great success with his redfoots in Tennessee. When I joined the forum and was having this same battle about how un-natural the "wet" routine is, Terry contacted me out of the blue and befriended me. He wanted to learn more about what I had seen in my world travels, what I was doing at home, and generally talk tortoises. It was he that convinced me to give the shell spraying a try for sulcatas, and it worked. At least it was part of the puzzle. When I credited Terry with this "discovery" on the forum, another forum friend, Carl May, contacted me to let me know that Terry K. did not "invent" this technique and that shell spraying and many of the other aspects of my new sulcata hatchling care regime had been in practice with RF keepers since the 60's. These techniques just hadn't been applied to "desert" species before.




lilacdragon said:


> So what about wetting the carapace/ increased humidity?
> (a) Does it work? Tom, please get your evidence into some serious herp publications. Charts, tables, photos, measurements. Everyone wants to see this data!



In short, yes, it works. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of examples right here on this forum, not counting the hundreds of hatchlings that I have personally raised myself. It should be understood that in addition to my "wet" routine, my hatchling tortoises are fed a somewhat "natural" diet consisting of mostly grasses, weeds, leaves, and smaller amounts of flowers and succulents, supplemented by occasional Mazuri or calcium or mineral powder. They have drinking water and get regular soaks, and they all get lots of exercise and real sunshine year round in large outdoor enclosures. They demonstrate none of the maladies that have been baselessly suggested in this thread. They DO demonstrate smooth, natural looking carapaces and every indication of good health.

As far as publishing my info, TFO is as close as I will likely get to that. I've toyed with the idea of a book, but I have no time. I have a full time career and an even fuller time family, not to mention a few dozen tortoises to take care of. I would love to retire and spend more time pursuing and spreading tortoise knowledge, but for now, this is it for me. I have several threads listing weights, growth, various experiments, and all the details all over the forum. Many of the people who have gotten tortoises from me are doing the same thing with theirs. All the "evidence" a person could want is out there.




lilacdragon said:


> (b) Is it safe? Paludarium wrote: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-83263-post-793439.html#pid793439
> 
> 
> 
> The best way to prove if Tom is wrong is to conduct the autopsy on his leopard tortoises and find out the real shell structure of the tortoises.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, "autopsy" sounds a bit drastic.. but I'd sure like to see some investigations as to all aspects of health - X-Rays, bone density, blood panels, etc. and evidence of no harm from increased damp on respiratory function, skin health etc - This would reassure a lot of people and give credence to claims that this method is safe. And if any die from accidental injury for example, yes autopsy... and histology of kidney, liver etc as well as carapace and bone.
> Only then will we be able to ascertain whether the benefits of this admittedly abnormal way of tortoise-rearing outweigh the risks.
> And one big risk - as Andy has pointed out -is most definitely that it could mask an underlying serious bone pathology, namely Metabolic Bone Disorder.
> I am deeply concerned about this possibility because vitamin D deficiency is still a number one problem, and we still haven't perfected UVB lighting, and we still don't have any universally accepted ideal of what constitutes a healthy heating/lighting/UVB environment....
> PLEASE NOTE, I am NOT saying that anyone's torts reared using the humid method actually have "disguised MBD". What I'm saying is that the humid method might prevent it from being diagnosed.... so some torts might have it, but it might go un-recognised until very late...
Click to expand...


My take on this: If a tortoise is living in conditions that will allow/promote MBD, what difference does it make if we grow it smooth or lumpy? While these to issues can sometime be related, they are still two separate issues. None of my lumpy tortoises of the past had any sign of MBD. How could they? They got a natural weedy, grassy diet, had regular calcium supplementation ON TOP OF a calcium rich diet, and they were outside in the CA sunshine all day every day for most of the year. On average I would say they might have had 30 days spread out over the course of an entire years where they didn't go outside in the sunshine.

Some history: My first sulcata was obtained in late 1991. At the time I was very into green iguanas, Ctenosaurs, Uromastix, and I even had a prehensile tailed skink. All herbivorous reptiles. I grew up in the big city and had no means to obtain or even a concept of a "natural" diet. My sulcata was fed the same leafy greens from the grocery store as my other reptiles. In accordance with all the books and "experts" he was housed dry to simulate the wild conditions that sulcatas came from. (Sound familiar?) Of course he pyramided, much to my dismay, because I had offered him the best I could. With the burdens of college, I decided to give him away to a most amazing man and facility out here called "Casa de Tortuga", run by a bunch of fantastic volunteers and headed by the late and VERY great Walter Allen. Seeing my dismay at giving up my tortoise, Water personally wrote me an IOU and told me to come back and get a hatchling whenever I was ready. My failure caused me to really examine what I had done wrong with my sulcata, and try to learn from the experience. I went to shows, lectures, called breeders and vets... I did everything I could, short of physically going to Mali. Remember this is pre-internet, so all I had were books and "experts" to talk to. The advice of the day was: He pyramided because of the grocery store greens and not enough UV. They told me the grocery store greens were too rich, too nutritious, and I fed him simply too much. The fast growth was "un-natural" since they spent much of their time in the wild with little to nothing to eat and experienced very slow growth as a result. (Still sounding familiar?) So off I went to Walter's place to redeem my coupon for a free hatchling armed with my new knowledge of what had gone wrong. I picked out "Scooter" in July of '98. When Walter saw me picking he came over and handed me "Bert", since he thought I'd like to have 2 and he had an abundance with more on the way. I raised Scooter and Bert form hatchlings with all this new advice. I made them a naturalistic outdoor enclosure that was about 35' long and 10-12' wide with a L shape. Remember we are talking about 2" hatchlings here. Due to our extraordinary weather here, they spent nearly every day, all day outside in their pen. They would be brought indoors only at night and on cold rainy winter days. They were fed small amounts of grass, weeds, leaves, and cactus, and I regularly skipped feeding one to three days a week. (Sounding even more familiar yet?) They were famished and would pounce on any dry leaf that happened to blow into their enclosure. The result: Small, slow growing, arguably stunted, PYRAMIDED tortoises. A friend gave me a third one, Delores, who was added to the group a little over a year later, with the same results. I did everything "right" according to all the experts, and they still pyramided. To say I was discouraged was an understatement. This is the same advice that Andy is promoting here on TFO over the last couple of weeks, so you can imagine my frustration at hearing the same BAD advice so many years later. I knew way back then that something was missing. I kept those tortoises, but I took a sort of "mental vacation" from the hobby for a few years until I, or somebody else, could figure out the problem. I had lots of other tortoises and helped lots of friends, family, and clients with their tortoise over the intervening years and saw consistent results across the board. I couldn't grow a smooth leopard to save my life and temporarily gave that species up entirely. Meanwhile I couldn't make a russian pyramid, or even find a pyramided russian if I tried. Desert tortoises were a mixed bag. Indoor raised babies seemed to pyramid more than outdoor ones, but outdoor raised ones were often pyramided too, so they were a mixed bag. Fast forward to 2005. I lived in South Africa for about 4 moths while working on a movie. We were all over the place with more than a dozen filming locations, plus my South African girlfriend and other friends took me all over the place. I saw 100's of tortoises housed in all sorts of different ways in captivity, plus a few wild ones running around in the cold clammy weather at the Cape as if it were a warm summer day. In 2007, The Fife brothers released their "Leopard Tortoises" book , introducing for the first time I had seen the concept of humid hides for tortoises as a means to prevent dehydration and pyramiding. I had been using humid hides for lizards and snakes for years, so this made perfect sense to me. Then, while on a job in New Orleans, I met a man from South Florida who should me pics on his phone of his two five year old 60 pound sulcatas that lived loose in his back yard and ate the cat kibble off the back porch every day, in addition to whatever weeds and grass grew in the yard. His tortoises were giant for their age, eating the wrong food, and they were smooth as a cue ball. I don't know how healthy the inside was, but the outside was perfect. This showed me that humidity was NOT bad for them, totally inappropriate diets would not kill them and did NOT cause pyramiding, and that I (we as a community) had much to learn. Later that year on yet another Louisiana job I came across a pet store with two young sulcatas. Seems the uncle of one of the employees was a breeder just outside New Orleans. One tortoise was about 8" and smooth as anything I had ever seen. The other tortoise was about 3.5" and demonstrated he typical captive sulcata pyramiding. They were clutch mates about a year and a half old. One was raised inside in a dry enclosure, while the sibling was raised outside in the hot, humid, rainy, wet, Louisiana climate. Seeing a pattern here yet? Soon after my big experiment with Daisy began, then I found TFO, made all these same argument to no avail, and so began my "End of Pyramiding" thread in 2010. I decided to "put up, or shut up", and asked the same of my critics who were spouting a similar, although less articulate line, to what Andy is promoting here recently. The results of that "experiment" and the hundreds of other people who duplicated it with the same successful results speak for themselves. So please pardon my skepticism when I'm told that well hydrated, properly fed, well exercised tortoises that live in natural enclosures and get daily sunshine their whole lives, are going to somehow demonstrate some sort of mystery ailment in 50 years because they had daily soaks and humid hides when they hatched.




lilacdragon said:


> We are all looking for answers as to why indoor-reared tortoises are more susceptible to pyramiding than outdoor-reared ones. If those wavelengths of IR-A are adding to the harm, but _wetting the carapace/ soaking the keratin layer prevents them from reaching the sensitive growth plates underneath_, then this could be one more reason why Tom's method works.



In my lengthy explanation above, it should be clear that it is not an indoor/outdoor issue. It is a too dry/wet enough issue. They pyramid just the same outdoors IF it is too dry like it is here in a climate like mine. Scooter and Bert had CHEs indoors for night heat when they were little, but they didn't have traditional basing lamps, if I recall correctly, since they were outside almost every day.


There. I think I hit everything. Please let me know what you think.




Yvonne G said:


> Testudoresearch said:
> 
> 
> 
> I also do not agree with those who claim that juveniles of semi-arid habitat tortoises spend a large proportion of their lives in "high humidity" situations. Certainly not in ultra-high humidity situations. I have personally been avidly collecting field data on this since 1990 and have an absolute mass of measurements from all over the place... and I consequently feel that quite a lot of the information out there on this is very misleading.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm old, so my memory fails me quite a bit, but it is MY contention, and I THINK other's who believe in the high humidity theory, that you use the high humidity for the first year of the hatchling's life. After that you start weaning them off the high humidity and they start living most of the day outside. So, in my case (and I THINK in Tom's case too) we're only talking about the first year of a hatchling's life.
Click to expand...


Yvonne, I don't go by age, I go by size, but yes, you have the right idea.

Andy, on this subject, I cannot argue with your data on leopards outside of South Africa, but I can argue that at least some of the time it is very hot and humid in South Africa, and several South African members have said so. Constant? Maybe not. At least some of the time? Yes. As far as sulcatas go, it most certainly is hot and humid during the rainy season according to my friend who has lived their his whole life. You seem to want to ignore those few months and focus on the dry season. I have no answer for that. No one knows what the wild babies do in the drier times of the year. What that leaves us with, is what happens in our captive environments here at home. It is obvious and repeatable what happens when they are raised dry, or when they are raised wet, regardless of whether they are indoors or out, or what diet they are fed. This is simple and easy to understand for anyone.


----------



## Testudoresearch

You can lead a horse to water... but you can't make it drink. Same with knowledge. Even more so with wisdom.


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## FLINTUS

Tom said:


> FLINTUS said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tom said:
> 
> 
> 
> Further, no one is claiming that any wild species lives in super high humidity 24/7/365.
> 
> 
> 
> I have to disagree with that. Kinixys erosa, homeana and chelonoidis denticulata will rarely be found in areas of less than 80% RH. Chelonoidis carbonaria and the species of indotestudo and manouria-depending on which part of the range they occupy-will very rarely be found in less than 60% RH.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Duly noted FLINTUS. I should have been more specific. This discussion, for me, has been primarily about leopards and sulcatas, with a bit of Testudo thrown in. I apologize for my lack of specificity.
Click to expand...

Just wanted to clear it up as where as you have been talking about leopards and sulcatas, not all the conversation has gone that way-psammobates, kinixys, chelonoidis, elegans, etc. I am still interested to see what you think about my comment that perhaps something in sulcata and leopard care is still off, and the humidity is compensating for it.


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## Yvonne G

Testudoresearch said:


> You can lead a horse to water... but you can't make it drink. Same with knowledge. Even more so with wisdom.



How funny that the pot is having a hard time seeing the black kettle.


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## Testudoresearch

My own view is that there are often a number of things "off"...I could tell you one right away... think thermodynamics... radiant heat sources....thermoregulation cues. 

What I really very sad and thoroughly, deeply depressing is just how far some keepers these days are absolutely and totally "cut off" from reality. How they have managed to create a completely artificial internalised scenario where nature is second best and what they can offer in their back yards is superior in every respect. Where they can even "feel sorry" for animals living a natural, healthy life, in their own natural habitat. It is no step at all from that to convincing yourself (and anyone else arrogant and foolish enough to fall for it) that tortoises and all other wild creatures are "better off" in captivity. At that point, there is no hope. Why bother even protecting the last remaining wild places and wild creatures if that is what you believe? If views like that become the norm - we are finished. It is the supreme arrogance.


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## Tom

Testudoresearch said:


> Let me play Devil's Advocate here and raise a couple of practical questions.
> 
> 1. It is certainly not the case that those tortoises in the wild are being subjected to 80%+ RH and constant high temperatures (+26C) around the clock and for 365 days a year. They get some wetter, more humid periods, with some extremely arid, dry periods and some moderate periods. There are no constants in the wild. So... why do they allegedly need it in captivity?



They don't NEED it it. They can survive without it. Mine did for nearly two decades. The fact, however, is that they BENEFIT from it and we are able to grow them in a way that looks more natural than if we attempt to grow them dry, as you advocate. I don't find any benefit to inflicting hardships that might be encountered in the wild to my captive tortoise, and I HAVE tired it and it doesn't work.




Testudoresearch said:


> 2. Why is the level of humidity being advised so high? Even in the 'rainy season' air humidity levels are not normally that high for extended periods. Air movements and the warm sun reduce levels very rapidly in those environments.



I disagree with you about rainy season levels in sulcata territory based on the word of a man who has lived there his whole life and been a student of Chelonians for most of that time. Still, I think discussion of wild conditions are pointless to this discussion. None of us live in the wild range of the sulcata, and as you keep harping on wild wild wild, I will continue harping on captivity captivity captivity. Attempting to simulate wild sulcata conditions in indoor enclosures and in outdoor enclosures in some areas, fails.

To answer your question: I advocate those numbers because lower numbers don't work as well. In my initial experiments with the wet routine, I used open topped enclosures and I was only able to maintain the lower levels of humidity, closer to what you recommend. I had humid hides, damp substrate and sprayed the substrate and enclosure several times a day, but I could only maintain 50-70% ambient humidity even with all that effort. I even attempted to humidify the entire room, but my climate is just too dry. The results from those initial experiments were good, and far better than any tortoise I had ever produce as far as carapace smoothness goes, but I felt there was room for improvement, and I felt it could be done with a lot less effort. When I switched to closed chambers I found it easy to maintain higher humidity levels and still have relatively dry substrate. The tortoises that grew in these closed chamber with the consistently higher and easy to maintain humidity simply grew smoother. Even better than my first attempts with the open tops. So 50-70% with a humid hide was good, but 80% with a humid hide is even better and MUCH easier. Further in my initial experiments I housed groups of tortoises together in the same enclosures. They got the same diets, sunning and soaking routines. They ate off the same plates. The individuals that used the humid hide boxes, which were always 96-99% humidity, grew smoother and faster than their clutch mates in the same enclosure on the same diet. This was yet another clue that higher humidity would work better than lower humidity, and another indicator that faster growth is not necessarily bad. This has been repeated in my closed chamber many times with many animals. The ones who stay in the humid hides more grow faster and smoother than their clutch mates that spend more time out in the lower humidity levels. Live and learn.




Testudoresearch said:


> 3. Note what Richard Fife has said. That spraying the carapaces alone appears to produce a similar result to the use of humid hides. When you consider the properties of keratin, it is logical why this would have an effect, producing an intense temporary 're-hydration' effect. Provided you do not 'bake this off' too quickly with over-exposure to basking lamps, to me this would seem a far safer and more natural approach, as it would approximate the dew point cycle that occurs in even quite hot, arid habitats under certain circumstances (do not confuse the dew point with relative humidity. This is a fundamental technical error that I see constantly on pet keepers forums). Here is a helpful chart that demonstrates the difference.
> 
> Also note that Richard Fife does *not *subject his tortoises to 24/7 constant high humidity. He provides a "humid hide" only and the rest of the area is what he calls "dry" (I do not have current information on what exact level that is). My question is this. If Richard Fife is indeed raising nicely formed tortoises (including leopards and sulcatas) using just the humid hide approach (and I have no reason to disbelieve him - he is a genuinely good, skilled keeper and has shown great dedication to trying to solve this problem), why are enforced 24/7 super-saturated conditions required as advocated by some on this forum? The two situations are entirely different.



Richard is still producing tortoises that pyramid. I know. I bought a bunch from him. Not horribly pyramided mind you, but not as smooth as mine either. Certainly better than what was produced before he and his wife (who he credits for the humid hide "discovery") began using the humid hide technique. I am not attempting to mimic anyone's technique. I have combined useful elements from many people to come up with what I have found to work the best. This is an ongoing process too. I intend to use Frances' IR-A info too, when I figure out how best to incorporate it.

Again it has been an ongoing 6 year process of trial, error, and refinement to get to where we are now. Why do we do it this way? Why do we advocate doing it this way on this forum? BECAUSE IT WORKS! It produces healthy great looking tortoises. Combined with a good diet, suitable UV, hydration and exercise in large enclosures, we are growing HEALTHY SMOOTH tortoises using these techniques. Haven't you noticed? More moderate parameters generate more moderate results.




Testudoresearch said:


> What I really very sad and thoroughly, deeply depressing is just how far some keepers these days are absolutely and totally "cut off" from reality.



Do you not understand that many of us think EXACTLY this about you? You ignore the reality of thousands of pyramided tortoises that were raised totally inappropriately as people attempted to copy what you promote as "natural" conditions, at the same time ignoring the reality of thousands of other tortoises that are healthy and smooth because they were raised in conditions that were in line with what works for that species in a given captive environment.

From MY POV it seems YOU are the one cut off from reality. You keep going on and on about what you have observed in the wild and disregard what happens right in front of everyone's eyes every day.

No one is saying nature is "second best". We are saying that we are unable to duplicate what nature accomplishes in our captive environments, so we make the necessary adjustments to keep our captive animals healthy. 

All that other stuff is just negative mumbo jumbo. Save your "arrogance", "foolish" and other doom and gloom comments about the state of the entire world for your shrink. Good lord man. No need to foretell the end of the natural world because some dude in CA is having success raising tortoises at 10% higher humidity than what you think is "right". Talk about cut off from reality...


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## Testudoresearch

I just hope the majority of people are bright enough to see exactly what is going on here. 

All these point blank denials that it is "impossible" to raise healthy smooth tortoises without resorting to entirely bizarre and extreme techniques, promoted by people who cannot even explain (or understand) the mechanisms involved... despite the fact that for years, many, many people have been doing precisely that. Even photos are dismissed as questionable.... all evidence to the contrary is trashed and anyone who disagrees is subject to an ill-informed stream of personal attacks... told they "lack experience"....are "promoting" harmful methods.... Disgraceful. Absolutely disgraceful. 

It is really is very sad, and very pathetic. Tactics like this have no place in a civilised debate.

I simply do not understand why the moderators of this forum stand by and allow this kind of thing to continue.


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## Sulcata_Sandy

Eeeeeeeek!!!


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## wellington

The best way to get through to people is too let them know who you are. Give them the experience you've had and how you required your knowledge for what you speak. Then, the real big one for me, show me the proof. I took someone's word for it when I bought my leopard and he paid for it. Luckily, Tom does his home work, shares his experience in picture proof and is always there to help. He backs up his words with his proof. He still has nay sayers, and he always will, same as you do, and always will. The best way to help tortoises, if you feel your way is the right way, or someone else's way is bad or wrong, is too keep showing up proof. Don't expect everyone to agree with you, they won't. Don't expect everyone to follow you, they won't. Most of us, not in the tortoise world long have a clue if you are Andy or who Andy even is. The pics of the basking lights hit home too me as I could feel it and see it for myself with my own leopard and changed things up that day. Show me that the high humidity is destroying the tortoises insides and I would never grow them that way again and I'm sure many would change also. Don't participate in a good discussion, educational thread and then leave because everyone won't pat you on the back. Keep discussing, keep sharing, keep working on the proof is nay sayers are asking for.


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## Tom

Testudoresearch said:


> I just hope the majority of people are bright enough to see exactly what is going on here.
> 
> All these point blank denials that it is "impossible" to raise healthy smooth tortoises without resorting to entirely bizarre and extreme techniques, promoted by people who cannot even explain (or understand) the mechanisms involved... despite the fact that for years, many, many people have been doing precisely that. Even photos are dismissed as questionable.... all evidence to the contrary is trashed and anyone who disagrees is subject to an ill-informed stream of personal attacks... told they "lack experience"....are "promoting" harmful methods.... Disgraceful. Absolutely disgraceful.
> 
> It is really is very sad, and very pathetic. Tactics like this have no place in a civilised debate.
> 
> I simply do not understand why the moderators of this forum stand by and allow this kind of thing to continue.



Is there no end to your contempt for those you perceive as lower than you?

No one said its "impossible to raise healthy smooth tortoises without resorting to entirely bizarre and extreme techniques". The methods promoted here are neither bizarre nor extreme. That is YOUR spin on the matter.

"promoted by people who cannot even explain (or understand) the mechanisms involved..." This is not the least bit true either. We all agree that pyramiding is caused by growth in conditions that are too dry.

"despite the fact that for years, many, many people have been doing precisely that." NO they have not! When I asked you for details on how the pics you posted were raised you threw a hissy fit and quit talking to me, like a child. EVERY single leopard or sulcata that I have ever seen that was raised dry has pyramided. Your opinion and surly attitude will not change that. When I asked you to describe an exception you abruptly ended the conversation.

"all evidence to the contrary is trashed and anyone who disagrees is subject to an ill-informed stream of personal attacks... " False again. Ever since YOU personally addressed ME in your second post on this forum, I have been trying to debate the ISSUE with you. You are the one who resorted to to insults and demeaning comments because your almighty will was not bowed to.

"told they "lack experience"... Despite your recent post, you have not demonstrated otherwise. I know guys who have raised thousands of leopards. Does not mean any of them have ever raised a smooth one in a dry enclosure. As far as all of us know, neither have you.

"are "promoting" harmful methods...." The disgrace here is that if people follow YOUR advice and try to raise hatchling leopards and sulcatas dry, HARM will be done. Yet you continually ignore 1000s of examples that prove this. You even POSTED examples of this.


Personally I am glad that the mods allow everyone to voice their opinion here, you included. It prevents anyone from being a bully or tyrant as happens on some other forums. I SHOW my work. You are free to do the same. People here are free to voice there opinions and keep their tortoises how they choose.


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## Yvonne G

Testudoresearch said:


> I just hope the majority of people are bright enough to see exactly what is going on here.
> 
> All these point blank denials that it is "impossible" to raise healthy smooth tortoises without resorting to entirely bizarre and extreme techniques, promoted by people who cannot even explain (or understand) the mechanisms involved... despite the fact that for years, many, many people have been doing precisely that. Even photos are dismissed as questionable.... all evidence to the contrary is trashed and anyone who disagrees is subject to an ill-informed stream of personal attacks... told they "lack experience"....are "promoting" harmful methods.... Disgraceful. Absolutely disgraceful.
> 
> It is really is very sad, and very pathetic. Tactics like this have no place in a civilised debate.
> 
> I simply do not understand why the moderators of this forum stand by and allow this kind of thing to continue.



So far, no one has broken any rules. The one 'rude' post that was made was removed from the thread before too many people saw it. Don't worry, we're watching the thread.

The above was said with my moderator hard hat in place, and the next sentence is said with my moderator hat taken off:

I know that the wind blows, but I can't see it. I know that airplanes fly, but I have no idea how they manage to do that. I know that keeping sulcata and leopard babies on the moist side, in a humid environment helps them to grow smooth carapaces, but I have no idea how or why that happens. As long as it works, I'm going to do it. I have a very bumpy 5 year old leopard tortoise that I raised from an egg, on dry alfalfa pellets with daily soaks. I also have two nicely smooth SA leopards that I raised in a humid environment with a humid hiding place. It works. So I'm on the humid side of the debate. I don't know why, I just know that it does.


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## nearpass

Tom said:


> Is there no end to your contempt for those you perceive as lower than you?
> 
> No one said its "impossible to raise healthy smooth tortoises without resorting to entirely bizarre and extreme techniques". The methods promoted here are neither bizarre nor extreme. That is YOUR spin on the matter.
> 
> "promoted by people who cannot even explain (or understand) the mechanisms involved..." This is not the least bit true either. We all agree that pyramiding is caused by growth in conditions that are too dry.
> 
> "despite the fact that for years, many, many people have been doing precisely that." NO they have not! When I asked you for details on how the pics you posted were raised you threw a hissy fit and quit talking to me, like a child. EVERY single leopard or sulcata that I have ever seen that was raised dry has pyramided. Your opinion and surly attitude will not change that. When I asked you to describe an exception you abruptly ended the conversation.
> 
> "all evidence to the contrary is trashed and anyone who disagrees is subject to an ill-informed stream of personal attacks... " False again. Ever since YOU personally addressed ME in your second post on this forum, I have been trying to debate the ISSUE with you. You are the one who resorted to to insults and demeaning comments because your almighty will was not bowed to.
> 
> "told they "lack experience"... Despite your recent post, you have not demonstrated otherwise. I know guys who have raised thousands of leopards. Does not mean any of them have ever raised a smooth one in a dry enclosure. As far as all of us know, neither have you.
> 
> "are "promoting" harmful methods...." The disgrace here is that if people follow YOUR advice and try to raise hatchling leopards and sulcatas dry, HARM will be done. Yet you continually ignore 1000s of examples that prove this. You even POSTED examples of this.
> 
> Personally I am glad that the mods allow everyone to voice their opinion here, you included. It prevents anyone from being a bully or tyrant as happens on some other forums. I SHOW my work. You are free to do the same. People here are free to voice there opinions and keep their tortoises how they choose.



I find it personally offensive that you are as arrogant and denigrating as you accuse others of being, Tom. You convey as much of an attitude of contempt and 'it's my way or you'll fail' as you accuse others of. I also find it astonishing that so few here seem to be able to truly read and comprehend the information that has been presented without picking and choosing what they agree with, and taking personal offense at what they don't agree with. Aren't most of us supposed to be adults, here.

I have read every post in this thread, glossing over the personal attacks, because it is obvious to me that we all know much less than we think we do about tortoise biology, physiology, captive requirements, and I that have much I can learn, and have learned. I am actually pretty humbled in the realization that the whole issue of pyramiding is incredibly complex and may never be entirely understood. I have read all the studies that I could find which were referenced, and am even more humbled at all that I don't really know and am eager for more information. And I've probably kept tortoises for longer than you, Tom, have been alive.


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## wellington

I don't think it matters how long you have kept tortoise. To me it's more important how well you have kept them. Have you learned from the mistakes you have made. Do you try to make things better for them. Do you improve their look, life? I have never gotten the feel that Tom is apposed to learning. He says it all the time, he is still learning and willing to learn. There is not one member of this forum, current or past(since I have been a member) that has put so much out there in regards to experience, experiments, failures and non failures as Tom has. No one has ever backed up there words with picture proof either. I have tried myself to get some former members too cough up proof of their words, all I got was pics of someone else's tortoises, no details on the way they were raised. In fact some members purposely and openly withholds info for themselves. Tom, has always answered every question I have asked, answered threads I have asked him to offer help on and Tom, can back up his words with proof. That says it all for me and many others.


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## FLINTUS

Right, I am preparing for criticism of this so fire away once I've written this:
Andy, I am kind of on your side with the humidity thing. Dry raised tortoises can be smooth and I too would be worried about the affects of such a consistent, unnatural environment. However, firstly, Tom has got results with his method, so what do you think is this missing piece? What I personally disapprove of, is how both of you are presenting your evidence-Tom's brazen claim 'the end of pyramiding' and your reluctance to prove to us your case when both of you agree we DO NOT know enough about MBD in tortoises at present. New light still being shed. 
Secondly, contradicting your stance on moderating on this forum- while I do not deny your forum is a great resource, there are many people that have claimed to be 'bullied' off your forum for simply disagreeing and often members quickly shout before thinking and only later realize they may have misunderstood the original post. I have experienced the latter with your forum when we were talking about hybridization and mixing of species-two things I am opposed to- and I considered the 'other side' of the argument. For instance for the former point, one of the things that is constantly brought up is sand. Many have claimed it to cause impaction. But you don't seem to accept that. Another thing is the good old 'vivarium' debate. You can actually establish a good temperature gradient and moderate humidity, vivariums vary a lot and while your experiments were perfectly fine, you did not account for the fact that most of the tortoise owners using vivariums on this forum, Shelled Warriors, RFUK, The Tortoise Board etc. will be using custom made accommodation due to recognizing that tortoises need space. Tom has the same 'unacceptance' with open topped enclosures in his claim you cannot get high humidity with them. I managed to get 80%+ CONSTANT humidity with no mister in two plastic enclosures for my red foots of sizes 4 by 2ft and 6 by 2ft. 
Sorry to have a slight moan, but this is what I find really annoying, both of you have said before that we still know very little about these creatures ultimately-despite excellent field studies by people such as Andy- yet both of you seem to be very much 'in denial' of certain points. Perhaps, maybe working together you could combine the best of both methods, and also work out the faults?




nearpass said:


> I find it personally offensive that you are as arrogant and denigrating as you accuse others of being, Tom. You convey as much of an attitude of contempt and 'it's my way or you'll fail' as you accuse others of. I also find it astonishing that so few here seem to be able to truly read and comprehend the information that has been presented without picking and choosing what they agree with, and taking personal offense at what they don't agree with. Aren't most of us supposed to be adults, here.
> 
> I have read every post in this thread, glossing over the personal attacks, because it is obvious to me that we all know much less than we think we do about tortoise biology, physiology, captive requirements, and I that have much I can learn, and have learned. I am actually pretty humbled in the realization that the whole issue of pyramiding is incredibly complex and may never be entirely understood. I have read all the studies that I could find which were referenced, and am even more humbled at all that I don't really know and am eager for more information. And I've probably kept tortoises for longer than you, Tom, have been alive.


That was basically what I was trying to say in my post.


----------



## wellington

Proof, please post picture proof of these SMOOTH DRY raised tortoises. Also, don't forget to give the perimeters of how dry you are considering dry! 70% is not dry. Half day in dry and half day in 70% is not dry. Please, please give picture proof with all the details of how this smooth dry tortoises was achieved.


Correction, leopards and sulcatas, smooth, dry leopards and sulcatas.

I will post a pic of a leopard started out dry from the breeder and then unfortunately by me for 5 months. I live in Chicago, not the highest humidity, not the lowest either. Got him in May, no heat on and no air conditioning running. Water available, with some wet area of moss that the breeder told me to get rid of. This is my home. His basking was right on, the rest of his enclosure was 70-75. I don't know if there was any readable humidity, probably very little to non. Here is a dry started for 7 months leopard





Not very smooth looking too me. The smoother growth you can see, is from the high humidity, just too little too late for us.


----------



## Testudoresearch

FLINTUS said:


> For instance for the former point, one of the things that is constantly brought up is sand. Many have claimed it to cause impaction. But you don't seem to accept that. Another thing is the good old 'vivarium' debate. You can actually establish a good temperature gradient and moderate humidity, vivariums vary a lot and while your experiments were perfectly fine, you did not account for the fact that most of the tortoise owners using vivariums on this forum, Shelled Warriors, RFUK, The Tortoise Board etc. will be using custom made accommodation due to recognizing that tortoises need space.



With respect to sand and impaction.I have personally used it for over 20 years, many, many hundreds of tortoises - not one problem. It is also the case that many tortoises live on almost pure sand (though I do not normally recommend that in captivity). Testudo kleinmanni, some T. graeca, some T. horsfieldii, Chersina angulata, Psammobates and Tunisian tortoises among others . I have heard of confirmed cases with some commercial 'reptile' sands - these can clump when wet. However, the normal, regular sands I have used (and many other keepers have used) have not once resulted in any problem at all. I cannot prove a negative... I do believe that if a high fiber diet is employed risk is minimal. The problem is all substrates can have problems of one kind or another... nothing is 100% guaranteed in every circumstance. I would never say it is risk-free, but I do believe the risk is as low or lower than other suitable alternatives. 

With enclosed vivaria - I can only speak of those I have tested. Not those I have no data on. If anyone has a design they wish to submit for testing, I will test it. Simple as that.


----------



## nearpass

wellington said:


> No one has ever backed up there words with picture proof either.
> 
> Tom, has always answered every question I have asked, answered threads I have asked him to offer help on and Tom, can back up his words with proof. That says it all for me and many others.



Why is it necessary to 'take sides' to have a discussion?

There are pictures of smooth, dry raised tortoises posted by Testudoresearch on the pages below.

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-83263-page-2.html

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-83263-page-3.html


----------



## Testudoresearch

wellington said:


> Proof, please post picture proof of these SMOOTH DRY raised tortoises. Also, don't forget to give the perimeters of how dry you are considering dry! 70% is not dry. Half day in dry and half day in 70% is not dry. Please, please give picture proof with all the details of how this smooth dry tortoises was achieved.
> 
> 
> Correction, leopards and sulcatas, smooth, dry leopards and sulcatas.





I already did. It was disbelieved.

They were raised in a polytunnel (18ft X 40 feet) with ambient humidity ranging from 40% to 60%. It would mostly be in the 50-55% range. No overhead heat lamps were used. Background heat was provided by multiple water-filled radiators powered by an oil-fired central heating system. Solar gain was excellent from spring to early fall. Tortoises achieved body temperatures of up to 30C quite easily even on overcast days. In hot weather, they hid under shade and some buried into scrapes. In good weather, they were given access to an outdoor area this contained mixed grazes and grasses. Some natural UVB passed through the plastic but UVB tubes were added at a low level to assist in that respect. In winter, heat continued to be provided, but tortoise activity and feeding was much reduced.. additional insulation was added to the tunnel.... light levels were lower and temperatures in the area reduced to around 18-20C, sometimes even a bit lower at night. Diet was high fiber, high calcium, with a (DM) protein level of circa 8%. A calcium-D3 product called "Nutrobal" (similar to Repcal+D3) was also provided daily. Concrete 'trays' permitted drinking and bathing from fresh water also provided daily. 

Really. That's it. That's all. Photos of animals posted previously. 

Disbelieve if you will. I can't change that. Believe or disbelieve. Your choice. Not really my problem.


----------



## lilacdragon

Tom said:


> Thank you for ... NOT disregarding various people's lifetimes of firsthand experience because of lack of "scientific" citation.



Tom, I had a friend (sadly we lost touch about 5 years ago and I never got a forwarding address) who was an absolute genius with frog husbandry. He was a pioneer with the use of both vitamin D3 and UVB with a whole range of reptiles - he was a devoted and skilled zookeeper - but with frogs he was amazing. He got dozens of species to breed, that no-one else could. But he never published a single article, and he was doubted openly - and sometimes in a very hostile manner - wherever he went. This was totally unfair because he, too had a lifetime of firsthand experience. 20 years of astonishing results. But no "scientific citation".
Among others, I pleaded with him to spend time tabulating his results and recording his methods. But he got totally disillusioned with his work and once he told me, in effect, that he couldn't go on because he would send baby frogs he had raised to new owners and "three months later they would write and ask for more, because they had died".
He gave up his work and disappeared entirely from the zoo world. What a loss!



> There are hundreds, if not thousands, of examples right here on this forum...





> I have several threads listing weights, growth, various experiments, and all the details all over the forum. Many of the people who have gotten tortoises from me are doing the same thing with theirs. All the "evidence" a person could want is out there.



Unfortunately it is very difficult, if not impossible, to create acceptable scientific evidence from other people's forum posts. I had a terrible time collecting data from forum-posters when there was a disaster with certain UVB lamps sold in 2006-7 causing photo-kerato-conjunctivitis. Not only did I need to get permission to use the posts and photos, I had to have real names and locations, plus detailed case histories - and when gathering these, although almost everyone was super keen to help, a large number of cases could not be included because the owners remembered only the vaguest of details about the lamp, the animal's history and the treatments given. But it can be done....



> I've toyed with the idea of a book, but I have no time. I have a full time career and an even fuller time family, not to mention a few dozen tortoises to take care of. I would love to retire and spend more time pursuing and spreading tortoise knowledge, but for now, this is it for me.


I know the feeling only too well. I am sometimes desperate to update my own website, heaven knows I have gigabytes of data for it, but time always eludes me. I have my work cut out, this month... in fact I will have to leave this thread soon because I simply must do some written work folks are waiting on me for...
But please keep ALL your data and please consider writing that book. Or paper... these are far shorter, and oddly enough have more impact nowadays...

Tom, if you could somehow create a document that is laid out in the form of a scientific paper, with some "methods" and "growth charts" etc (rather than the excellent but chatty article in a magazine, by Jason Oneppo, that Andy gave the link to) I am certain that several serious herp publications would consider publishing it. I'm thinking of the British Herpetological Society Bulletin; The Bulletin of the Chicago Herpetological Society; even the prestigious SSAR's Herpetological Review, the AZA's Zoo Biology or ARAV's Journal of Herpetological Medicine and Surgery might be interested if it was concise and included a neat description of theories on pyramiding to date, as well as your methods and results....

What I'm trying to say is - without a published, peer-reviewed paper it's very hard to be believed (crazy as this is). But once you have a solid reference to show people, more often than not your theory will be taken quite seriously by many people. Some will take it uncritically on face value (a pity; especially if the theory is flawed, of course) whereas others will give it a very critical appraisal which is, after all, the foundation of progress in science..



> I have several threads listing weights, growth, various experiments, and all the details all over the forum. Many of the people who have gotten tortoises from me are doing the same thing with theirs. All the "evidence" a person could want is out there.



Hey... if it needs gathering up into one place, couldn't some of the other regular posters, or the moderators, get together - create a Working Party - and assemble the material as a sort of fantastic forum project? It would be brilliant fun for those compiling it; there's nothing like the buzz of working with like-minded folks on something worthwhile.... Then all you'd have to do, would be to edit it...



> From what I have seen, there is not any "precision" at all to the natural habitats of our tortoises. The climate, seasons and annual variations are all over the board. There are drought years, rainy years, hot years, cold years, predator die offs, predator flourishes, parasite outbreaks, fruit windfalls, irregular carrion discoveries, etc. It is my view that our tortoises are adapted to handle all of the above, and much more. Meaning (to me) that they are able to SURVIVE through a lot of variables.


Yes, indeed. I'm sure that amazing capacity for survival is why they can be kept as pets at all.



> It is my goal, to at least attempt to simulate the "good" days that they would experience in the wild, and forego the "bad" days, when possible. It should be noted that my older tortoises all live outside and are subject to whatever mother nature throws at us. I try to compensate for this by providing species appropriate housing, like heated boxes for the leopards and sulcatas, or proper shelters for the temperate species to escape temperature extremes and rain. My tortoises still get rained on in winter and experience scorching summer heat, but through enclosure design I do my best to keep them in their comfort range. For example when our annual daily highs start consistently hitting 32C+ (usually June through October), I open up the burrow and start letting the sulcatas go underground to escape the summer heat. The leopards get lots of "summer rain" through my sprinkler heads.



I would love to see your torts! They must be some of the luckiest alive... 



> Still on the first paragraph, there is much debate about D3,
> I saw a study done in the early 90's on green iguanas that proved that they cannot use dietary D3.



Yes, that was probably either the one by Bernard, done for her PhD thesis - (in 1991 I think), or one of a series by Bernard, Allen, Oftedal and several other colleagues around 1995-8. I can dig out the papers if you're interested... These showed, eventually, that they can in some circumstances use dietary D3 to a very limited extent... But it is certainly not natural for them, and very difficult to assess a suitable dose... Some day geckos, however, do appear completely unable to use dietary D3... (a second part of another sad study also by Allen et al).



> I have to date seen NO study that proves tortoises CAN use dietary D3.


Neither have I! Has anyone ever done the work needed? It is only a few years ago that anyone proved, using 25(OH)D3 sampling, that chelonians (red-eared sliders) could actually make vitamin D3 *from UVB*!! 



> Some history: ..................


Thank you so much for sharing this with us. It's been a long but rewarding journey by the sound of it... 
You kept Ctenosaurs? A rescued _Ctenosaura palearis_ is one of my scaly companions here. He was a terrified little skinny misery when I took him on, maybe 6 months old but already through 2 homes and a rescuer. He's grown into the most handsome and intelligent creature, so keen to learn, so curious... we love him very much. He's now 6yrs old.



> In my lengthy explanation above, it should be clear that it is not an indoor/outdoor issue. It is a too dry/wet enough issue. They pyramid just the same outdoors IF it is too dry like it is here in a climate like mine. Scooter and Bert had CHEs indoors for night heat when they were little, but they didn't have traditional basking lamps, if I recall correctly, since they were outside almost every day.


This is very interesting... Seriously, this does need writing up formally!



> There. I think I hit everything. Please let me know what you think.



I think this has been a most fascinating discussion.

I think you, Richard Fife, Terry K and Carl May, and no doubt others, have found something very interesting that warrants investigation and DEFINITELY warrants a scientific write-up and preferably, a controlled large-scale trial. 

I think that Andy's descriptions of the physiological processes involved in pyramiding are unrivalled, answer the question posed by the OP, and not only explain what we have all seen, but do so in a way we can all understand. They also provide a very good working hypothesis as to why the "humid method" works...

I think there may be additional things that contribute to pyramiding and abnormal growth, that we will continue to discover. Like the "abnormal" radiation from any type of artificial heat source.
But I think Andy is right to conclude that humidity is a very major factor affecting mainly the keratin. The multiplication of keratin cells and their transformation into keratin sheets is also, of course, affected by nutritional status, hormonal controls, seasonal changes, vitamin D levels, etc just as is the production of, for example, hair or fur in mammals.
I think he is also correct that dietary protein, fibre, growth rates, vitamin D, calcium and phosphorus status, etc. are more important factors affecting bone formation beneath the keratin; and if this is abnormal then pyramiding will be even easier to obtain owing to soft, defective bone and the effects of bone re-modelling that is well described by Gerlach.
There are countless other important factors of course....

I think it is very sad that stores sell Starter Kit "prison cells" for tortoises, and I repeat, "Shouldn't we be decrying this in the strongest possible terms, and instead be developing methods of housing tortoises in far better conditions altogether?"
Tom's descriptions of his baby sulcata tortoise rearing doesn't sound like _he_ is rearing them in "prison cells", but rather, in proper enclosures with the addition of damp hides...admittedly, I have not seen any pictures of his enclosures - but I haven't looked. 
I have, however, seen some dreadful *dry prison cells *in pet stores though, and Andy has a really worthwhile analysis of the problems associated with these, on his website, including scathing comments on the drying effects of the small, hot lamps and the lack of humidity:
http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/vivreport.html 

Finally, I think despite all the strong undercurrents of hostility, the people who've posted on this thread are actually working towards a similar aim - improved husbandry. I think what is lacking is a scientific paper with lots of tables and charts and hard data. Actually, no... two. One from Andy on field data and one from Tom on the "humid method" for improving the lives of baby tortoises currently so often reared in despicable "dry prison cells" such as Andy has reviewed.
Maybe - and here is a great challenge - Flintus has just had the best idea of all: 


> Perhaps, maybe working together you could combine the best of both methods, and also work out the faults?


I bet you could! 

I'm sorry, I have to go now, for a while. Thank you for allowing my posts and for your warm welcome.
Frances


----------



## Testudoresearch

I also have to go as I do have other pressing things to work on now that the holidays are over.

Those of you who have contributed thoughtful and thought-provoking input - many thanks. 

Further updates on the lamp research will appear on the main Tortoise Trust website over the next couple of months. Look out also for a forthcoming popular magazine article and two peer-reviewed journal articles which should be out sometime this year that address different aspects of what we have discussed here.


----------



## Dizisdalife

Yvonne G said:


> Testudoresearch said:
> 
> 
> 
> I just hope the majority of people are bright enough to see exactly what is going on here.
> 
> All these point blank denials that it is "impossible" to raise healthy smooth tortoises without resorting to entirely bizarre and extreme techniques, promoted by people who cannot even explain (or understand) the mechanisms involved... despite the fact that for years, many, many people have been doing precisely that. Even photos are dismissed as questionable.... all evidence to the contrary is trashed and anyone who disagrees is subject to an ill-informed stream of personal attacks... told they "lack experience"....are "promoting" harmful methods.... Disgraceful. Absolutely disgraceful.
> 
> It is really is very sad, and very pathetic. Tactics like this have no place in a civilised debate.
> 
> I simply do not understand why the moderators of this forum stand by and allow this kind of thing to continue.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So far, no one has broken any rules. The one 'rude' post that was made was removed from the thread before too many people saw it. Don't worry, we're watching the thread.
> 
> The above was said with my moderator hard hat in place, and the next sentence is said with my moderator hat taken off:
> 
> I know that the wind blows, but I can't see it. I know that airplanes fly, but I have no idea how they manage to do that. I know that keeping sulcata and leopard babies on the moist side, in a humid environment helps them to grow smooth carapaces, but I have no idea how or why that happens. As long as it works, I'm going to do it. I have a very bumpy 5 year old leopard tortoise that I raised from an egg, on dry alfalfa pellets with daily soaks. I also have two nicely smooth SA leopards that I raised in a humid environment with a humid hiding place. It works. So I'm on the humid side of the debate. I don't know why, I just know that it does.
Click to expand...

Thanks Yvonne. If there was a "like" button I would have pressed it (I am not suggesting that we add one either). There are a lot of things that I don't know, although I do know what makes an airplane fly, and I know that elevated humidity minimizes pyramiding in sulcata. I know this because I tried it and got results.

For me, the keeping of a tortoise is a low stress proposition. I love the serenity it brings when I see them basking in the warm sun, seemingly smiling, not a care in the world. This morning I joined Chuck (my almost 4 year old sulcata) for a bit of basking time. The air temperature was just above 60F, but the sun was bright and warmed us both. I ate a tangerine from my tree, still cool from the evening chill, while Chuck had an optunia pad fresh from the plant. I wonder if he could see me smiling.


----------



## wellington

nearpass said:


> wellington said:
> 
> 
> 
> No one has ever backed up there words with picture proof either.
> 
> Tom, has always answered every question I have asked, answered threads I have asked him to offer help on and Tom, can back up his words with proof. That says it all for me and many others.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why is it necessary to 'take sides' to have a discussion?
> 
> There are pictures of smooth, dry raised tortoises posted by Testudoresearch on the pages below.
> 
> http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-83263-page-2.html
> 
> http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-83263-page-3.html
Click to expand...


AGAIN, show me a dry raised leopard or sulcata. Toms way is being said to be endangering the insides of our tortoises, or at the very least, they don't need high humidity. Toms way is leopards and sulcatas. Your not showing me anything that I didn't already see. If your going to attack Toms way, show up some proof of a leopard or sulcata that is smooth and raised dry. I did. Oops, that's right, he's not smooth. Had a dream that hot and dry would grow a smooth leopard. I would love for that to be a fact. I'm sure most of us would love to not have to add the humidity that for some of use takes more time and money then we would like. I would love for the way I started raising my leopard to have been the right way, the appropriate way. It wasn't, he's not smooth and does not look like a leopard tortoises is suppose to look. Please, for leopards and sulcatas, prove Tom wrong, we would all love an easier way, a dry way. Don't tell me he's wrong, prove it and show and tell the details as he has. Tell me and the average tortoise keeper on this forum who you are and why we should believe you. Heck, I could tell you how Tom met his wife and where she used to work and now works. I and most of us on this forum have no clue who you are or if your name is really Andy, but you want us to believe we are raising our Sullies and leopards in a inappropriate way, yet, you keep talking and showing pics of the Testudo species.


----------



## tortadise

Post 31/33 is the start of Pardalis Andy has raised.


----------



## FLINTUS

The D3 stuff interests me. I know a lot of keepers have kept species successfully without UV inside for many years-even if they don't get much outside access. The species which are covered here include elegans, carbonaria, kinixys species and more recently a few people are growing smooth graeca and hermanni mainly inside without UV lights. I remember a post by Terry on here, something like 'they(k.erosa) get all their D3 requirements through their food.' In this case he was talking about mushrooms. I am using low level UV lighting with my k.erosa now, and they do seem to like it. However, species such as k.erosa and c.denticulata live in deep forest, very few rays of light aren't filtered in the canopy and undergrowth. The only times they might see decent sunlight levels will be at rivers. IF D3 cannot be taken from dietary means for these species, maybe they have evolved to capture much more of the UV rays from the sun than savannah/desert/steppe tortoises do as when they do come out into the sunlight they absorb the rays quickly. A slightly absurd idea, based on no evidence whatsoever, but just a thought.


Kelly who goes by the name of stells on the shelled warriors forum claims to have raised them dry. Baoh on the tortoise board has some of the nicest leopards around using moderate humidity outside. We are not denying humidity is not needed, but a simple humid hide or a place to dig burrows in should be adequate. I really do wish I took pics of those leopards kept on sand in Mauritius, with a humid hide of around 80%.


----------



## wellington

tortadise said:


> Post 31/33 is the start of Pardalis Andy has raised.



Thanks Kelly, but again, where are the details? How humid. Where was he located. Living in Florida (I know he doesn't) I could most likely raise a smooth leopard with no artificial (whatever his meaning of this is) humidity either. Same goes for living in England, Ireland, rain, rain and more rain with plenty of humidity under the shrubs. If it can be done. Give the details of how it was done. Don't leave out things like some members or former members do. We all live in different areas. In order for us to duplicate your dry? success, we have to know exactly how you did it, the temps use, humidity levels used, diet, etc so we can apply the same to the areas we all live.


----------



## FLINTUS

Huge difference between hot humidity and mild(temperature) humidity as what we have in the British Isles and North West Europe. Hot humidity is the kind of thing you are promoting, and what you might find in Florida or southern India. Personally I hate that kind of humidity. Mild humidity is not what you're promoting.


----------



## Dizisdalife

FLINTUS said:


> Huge difference between hot humidity and mild(temperature) humidity as what we have in the British Isles and North West Europe. Hot humidity is the kind of thing you are promoting, and what you might find in Florida or southern India. Personally I hate that kind of humidity. Mild humidity is not what you're promoting.



You are correct.


----------



## wellington

I too don't like it hot and humid. However it's been seen on here many 
Times, low temps with or without humidity produces sick tortoises. 
Hatchlings anyway. The hot and humid is for hatchlings upto a year 
Or so. Warm and humid, is still humid.


----------



## nearpass

wellington said:


> tortadise said:
> 
> 
> 
> Post 31/33 is the start of Pardalis Andy has raised.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks Kelly, but again, where are the details? How humid. Where was he located. Living in Florida (I know he doesn't) I could most likely raise a smooth leopard with no artificial (whatever his meaning of this is) humidity either. Same goes for living in England, Ireland, rain, rain and more rain with plenty of humidity under the shrubs. If it can be done. Give the details of how it was done. Don't leave out things like some members or former members do. We all live in different areas. In order for us to duplicate your dry? success, we have to know exactly how you did it, the temps use, humidity levels used, diet, etc so we can apply the same to the areas we all live.
Click to expand...


Post #252 on the pervious page.


----------



## Yvonne G

I think Tom spoiled us. What we were hoping Andy could provide was a step-by-step in the raising of his leopard tortoise. Like, "Here's a picture of my baby leopard tortoise and here's his habitat." Then in 6 months or a year, "Here's that same leopard tortoise at a year and his habitat."

See, anyone can post a picture of a smooth tortoise and say, "This is my tortoise I raised him from a hatchling on dry alfalfa pellets." 

We wanted to see pictures of the process.


----------



## wellington

Thank you Yvonne, at least you get it. I'm not into believing someone 
Just because they said so. No one else should be either. I can't say 
It any plainer then I already have. Details, every detail. If you can't
Give every detail, then people are left to assume and we all know that's
Not a good thing. Remember, there are all kinds of people here. Some
Even preaching one thing, yet doing another Others who talk as
Experts, yet shows nothing. If you want to change things show all the
Proof, ALL the details.


----------



## Team Gomberg

> They were raised in a polytunnel (18ft X 40 feet) with ambient *humidity ranging from 40% to 60%. It would mostly be in the 50-55%* range. *No overhead heat lamps were used*. Background heat was provided by multiple water-filled radiators powered by an oil-fired central heating system. Solar gain was excellent from spring to early fall. Tortoises achieved body temperatures of up to 30C quite easily even on overcast days. In hot weather, they hid under shade and some buried into scrapes. In good weather, they were given access to an outdoor area this contained mixed grazes and grasses. Some natural UVB passed through the plastic but UVB tubes were added at a low level to assist in that respect. In winter, heat continued to be provided, but tortoise activity and feeding was much reduced.. additional insulation was added to the tunnel.... light levels were lower and temperatures in the area reduced to around 18-20C, sometimes even a bit lower at night. Diet was high fiber, high calcium, with a (DM) protein level of circa 8%. A calcium-D3 product called "Nutrobal" (similar to Repcal+D3) was also provided daily. Concrete 'trays' permitted drinking and bathing from fresh water also provided daily.
> 
> Really. That's it. That's all. Photos of animals posted previously.


 _*bold and italics mine*_

I wouldn't consider this raising them dry. They have moderate humidity and without the drying effect of basking bulbs (now that we are hearing about IR-A) I can see how they stayed hydrated. 

A few others that aren't raising them with "The hot and humid method" of 80%+RH yet still achieve relatively smooth results all seem to have 2 things in common. 1- moderate humidity in the environment and 2- NO BASKING BULBS

Since NO ONE is raising them smooth with _real_ DRY methods, it seems to me you have a few choices. We all know there is no 1 way to do it.

You can raise them outdoors as "natural" as possible with moderate humidity and different micro climates. They grow slower but relatively smooth. 
*But* if your outdoor conditions CANT offer moderate humidity then maybe you'll choose to start them indoors. That's what I do. It's what anyone in any location in the world can do. So, in this case we see using higher humidity with basking bulbs works very well. After a hydrated head start they move outdoors and all this debate over 10%-20% difference in humidity becomes a moot point anyway.

When people ask me how to raise their leopard tortoise I tell them how I raise mine. It's what I know and has produced results I like. They can choose to try it or not. It's up to them. If they want to, I can help them because it's what I know. If they want to set them up like Andy in a poly tunnel outdoors I can't help them because I don't know that. 
There are certain members here that don't share enough details about what they do. I wish they did. I've tried to understand what Baoh does. I've seen some great looking torts by him. Other members, too. They show great tortoises but don't share enough details for me to understand what they do or implement it myself if I wanted to. Tom has gone into so much depth on the "how to" with his method that I have a good understanding of how to apply it. 
Honestly, if I could raise all the leopards outdoors full time, I would. I'd prefer to do that. But I want them healthy and with a natural smooth look. I'm not after a bowling ball of perfection. But I don't like the horribly spiked leopards I commonly see. 

If someone could share their outdoor raising information as detailed as Tom shares about the humidity/ closed chambers AND it worked in my location... I'd consider it.


----------



## wellington

Ditto Heather. We would all love to be able to raise our tortoises out side with little to no added equipment. It would be a whole lot cheaper too. Unfortunately, not only do most of us not have that option, but like you said, the other members won't share what they want to preach. I too have asked many times for proof of Baoh and details. Also like you, he gives nothing. I have not seen his torts, only pics of others he has posted. So, I too will stay with what has proven too work. Well if I were to get another leopard that is. I will though keep dong what I have from the beginning, promoting Toms way.


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## nearpass

Team Gomberg said:


> I wouldn't consider this raising them dry. They have moderate humidity and without the drying effect of basking bulbs (now that we are hearing about IR-A) I can see how they stayed hydrated.
> 
> A few others that aren't raising them with "The hot and humid method" of 80%+RH yet still achieve relatively smooth results all seem to have 2 things in common. 1- moderate humidity in the environment and 2- NO BASKING BULBS
> 
> Since NO ONE is raising them smooth with _real_ DRY methods, it seems to me you have a few choices. We all know there is no 1 way to do it.
> 
> You can raise them outdoors as "natural" as possible with moderate humidity and different micro climates. They grow slower but relatively smooth.
> 
> But if your outdoor conditions CANT offer moderate humidity then maybe you'll choose to start them indoors. That's what I do. It's what anyone in any location in the world can do. So, in this case we see using higher humidity with basking bulbs works very well. After a hydrated head start they move outdoors and all this debate over 10%-20% difference in humidity becomes a moot point anyway.
> 
> When people ask me how to raise their leopard tortoise I tell them how I raise mine. It's what I know and has produced results I like. They can choose to try it or not. It's up to them. If they want to, I can help them because it's what I know. If they want to set them up like Andy in a poly tunnel outdoors I can't help them because I don't know that.
> There are certain members here that don't share enough details about what they do. I wish they did. I've tried to understand what Baoh does. I've seen some great looking torts by him. Other members, too. They show great tortoises but don't share enough details for me to understand what they do or implement it myself if I wanted to. Tom has gone into so much depth on the "how to" with his method that I have a good understanding of how to apply it.
> Honestly, if I could raise all the leopards outdoors full time, I would. I'd prefer to do that. But I want them healthy and with a natural smooth look. I'm not after a bowling ball of perfection. But I don't like the horribly spiked leopards I commonly see.
> 
> If someone could share their outdoor raising information as detailed as Tom shares about the humidity/ closed chambers AND it worked in my location... I'd consider it.



I think that's a fair and concise summary. After thinking all of this through a great deal, I'm very interested to explore lighting and heating changes, and dietary changes as well, since I have no option right now but to keeo them inside in the winter. I've added a humidifier to my animal room, may add a second, to try and keep the ambient humidity around 60%. I've changed to some lower wattage incandescent lights a little closer, in those combo-fixtures that lets them be horizontal, (to maybe create more of a warm zone) and tube flourescents...just got an Arcadia bulb. I'm letting the night time temps drop a little bit more, but not to a really chilly level, and I'm misting more often with a spray bottle. 

I'm really struggling with the high fiber diet part, which I think is crucial. 

I know this is probably a feeble beginning, and am intrigued with the poly-tunnel idea, and may explore some greenhouse options, which should at least allow me to extend the 'outdoor' time by a couple of months.


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## Turtulas-Len

I've tried the green house and it doesn't work in my area (MD,VA) unless their is no exposed soil in it. On concrete or or some other type of vapor barrier I have had some success. The moisture coming from the ground keeps it to moist and almost impossible to heat. I actually test with tender opuntia types first, it will tell me how cold it gets, cold and moist will kill many types of cactus, if the test cactus cant take it a tortoise cant either. I have many plants that are not supposed to live here that I can keep outside without added heat, just have to keep them dry. I keep several sulcatas outside all year. They have heated houses, heated mostly with heat pads and or panels made of ceramic tiles. When they exit their house they are outside not in any other protected area. This is my 4th winter doing it this way and it works for me and I believe the tortoises are better off this way rather than being inside all winter under artifical lighting. Even the young ones come out daily to eat and drink. It reminds me of what they are said to do when it gets real hot and they spend most of the day hideing in a cool spot, only these are getting out of the cold. As for raising a smooth sulcata I did it with Alex sort of the way Tom suggest, I did not use any type of hot lighting, CHE, or oil filled heater, and I believe a little less humidity. I have posted about her progress since the day I recieved her. Last Feburary I posted pics of Walker in snow, they are still their but on a closed topic. Another thing, could the incubation process that is used be in any way a factor in how well a sulcata grows ?


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## Dizisdalife

Thanks Heather for summarizing this so well. 

I read about Len's heated tiles earlier in the month and was impressed with how smooth his sulcata looked. What really caught my eye was that he wasn't using traditional basking lamp and che or radiator to heat with.
If anyone is interested in seeing them here is the link. http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-82952.html


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## nearpass

Dizisdalife said:


> Thanks Heather for summarizing this so well.
> 
> I read about Len's heated tiles earlier in the month and was impressed with how smooth his sulcata looked. What really caught my eye was that he wasn't using traditional basking lamp and che or radiator to heat with.
> If anyone is interested in seeing them here is the link. http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-82952.html



Thanks for the link! Will definitely peruse this!


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## Tom

nearpass said:


> You convey as much of an attitude of contempt and 'it's my way or you'll fail' as you accuse others of.



You are entitled to your opinion of the situation, but I cannot, will not, let the above stand unchallenged. This is simply NOT true. I am open to anyone who can show me new things and how to make tortoises healthier or find better ways to raise them. If you read all these posts you would see me giving credit where it was due. I have learned form other people for as long as I've been keeping tortoises. The fact of the matter is, a leopard or sulcata tortoise raised in any normal conventional set up with dry substrate, low humidity and a hot bulb, WILL pyramid. I have seen it hundreds of times and done it myself more times than I care to remember. This is not a question of "MY" way. This is a simple fact. There is no one in the world that is going to come on to this forum, post a single picture with no explanation, and then tell me that everything I have seen with my own eyes for the last 20+ years is wrong. Andy FINALLY divulged some of the details about how he did this with the single leopard tortoise he showed a picture of. Basically its a giant outdoor closed chamber from the sound of it. The devil is in the details. I would love to see a whole thread on this with pics and much more detail. I will publicly grant him right here and now that he has apparently raised one leopard tortoise smooth using the method he described. So he didn't do it my way, and with the few details he's given, he did not fail. There. Now the above quoted sentence is clearly false.




lilacdragon said:


> I would love to see your torts! They must be some of the luckiest alive...



Frances, not sure if you will see this, but I'm sad to see your time here end so abruptly. I think you have much to offer and your ability to be diplomatic is second to none. Even if you are gone, I thought other people reading might also like to see some of the tortoises we are discussing and the enclosures they are housed in. I'm afraid my indoor enclosures might meet your "prison cell" standards, but they are made to be practical, not so aesthetically pleasing, and only used for a year or two at most. My time is mostly spent on the outdoor enclosures, since this is where they will spend the vast majority of their lives. I have a real problem with indoor plants in my enclosures. All of my tortoises of all species try to eat plastic plants, so I don't use them to avoid impaction risk. Live plants that can be bought from a store are laced with systemic pesticides that last up to a year. When I have tried to grow my own, the tortoises trample or eat them in a few days. I have not found a solution to these problems, so my indoor enclosures are quite barren looking although they meet the tortoises needs just fine.

Anyway here are some threads:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-56465.html
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-56643.html

Outdoors:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-38788.html
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-28662.html
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-30151.html
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-50846.html

I took the time to re-read these as I pulled them up. I wonder what your assessment of the long term health of my tortoises will be after seeing some of these.


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## Tom

Dizisdalife said:


> For me, the keeping of a tortoise is a low stress proposition. I love the serenity it brings when I see them basking in the warm sun, seemingly smiling, not a care in the world. This morning I joined Chuck (my almost 4 year old sulcata) for a bit of basking time. The air temperature was just above 60F, but the sun was bright and warmed us both. I ate a tangerine from my tree, still cool from the evening chill, while Chuck had an optunia pad fresh from the plant. I wonder if he could see me smiling.



Joe, I was smiling when I read this. This is the whole reason why I keep these animals. I just got to do this yesterday. I set down the food tray sat down and watched all my bigger sulcatas come walking over to eat. I felt so serene and content during that 30 minutes or so of doing absolutely nothing.

Thanks for sharing this.


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## Dizisdalife

Tom said:


> Andy FINALLY divulged some of the details about how he did this with the single leopard tortoise he showed a picture of. Basically its a giant outdoor closed chamber from the sound of it. The devil is in the details. I would love to see a whole thread on this with pics and much more detail.



I would too. I looked up polytunnel and found that it is a greenhouse kit. Interesting. One of the TFO members, I can't recall the user name, constructed a smaller version of this recently and is using it in addition to a heated house for his sulcata this winter. Where I live there are too many sunny days that would make it hard to manage the heat and humidity. When I drive past all the green houses in my area I see the vents open and the fans blowing to get the heat out. Maybe Andy resolved these issues. I hope he shares the details.


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## FLINTUS

One of the major problems/conflictions in this thread is the use of the words 'dry' and 'humid', something I myself have been guilty of-while I have spent time in arid areas, the UK is naturally mild and humid so I kind of think of dry as 60% or under. When Andy and I and others mean dry, we are putting it in context compared to your definition of 'humid' , so we are not talking about 10% humidity or anything. We are proposing what you refer to as 'moderate' humidity, around the 50-60% mark. Perhaps when debating this again we need to stop using words which can be interpreted in a number of ways like 'humid' & 'cold'-the latter as proved in a weather thread on here.


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## Sulcata_Sandy

FLINTUS, you took the words right outta my mouth. 

I, too, would like RH values used vs "dry/humid". I posted on another thread my findings of using pellets for substrate. One of my rescues came with them, so I left him in his own house (came with him) as to not completely change his world. When I added a hygrometer, I consistently got 8-12% RH!!! 

Now he's on or is bark (adult Jordanian Greek), and he's at 45-65% RH.
My hatchling from Tom (now almost 4 months) is now at 75% RH, on damp peat/sphagnum.
My Redfoots are 85-95% RH.

I also most everyone's carapace twice daily. So far, all new growth coming in on all of my tortoises is still very smooth.


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## Tom

FLINTUS said:


> One of the major problems/conflictions in this thread is the use of the words 'dry' and 'humid', something I myself have been guilty of-while I have spent time in arid areas, the UK is naturally mild and humid so I kind of think of dry as 60% or under. When Andy and I and others mean dry, we are putting it in context compared to your definition of 'humid' , so we are not talking about 10% humidity or anything. We are proposing what you refer to as 'moderate' humidity, around the 50-60% mark. Perhaps when debating this again we need to stop using words which can be interpreted in a number of ways like 'humid' & 'cold'-the latter as proved in a weather thread on here.



Man you are SOOOOO right about this. My climate is so "dry". I don't think we hit 50% humidity WHILE its raining! (Kidding) Seriously though, my hygrometers which show every indication of being "reasonably" accurate, at least within a few percentage points, only go down to 16%. They won't register anything any lower. They are pegged at 16% almost every day. I have a grassy well planted back yard that is irrigated every night. One of my hygrometers is mounted about 5' above the ground on a pole bordering the grass. Right now it is reading 16% humidity and 46 degrees F. Later today we will warm up to about 75 F and the humidity will only get drier as the moisture burns off. I have smiled in amusement several times during this discussion when 80% humidity is called "bizarre", but 70% is "moderate" and perfectly "normal" and fine.


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## Yvonne G

I don't know how accurate it is, but my SIL got me a gizmo that you mount once section outside and the other inside. It tells you humidity, temperature, day of the week, moon phase, etc. Right now, outside, the humidity is 76% and inside it is 35%.

I had no idea our humidity here in the Central Valley was so high. We're in a drought with no measurable rain for many months, and I haven't run any sprinklers for a couple months either.


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## Team Gomberg

Wow sandy, 8-12% RH? Now that IS DRY!


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## Dizisdalife

Yvonne G said:


> I don't know how accurate it is, but my SIL got me a gizmo that you mount one section outside and the other inside. It tells you humidity, temperature, day of the week, moon phase, etc. Right now, outside, the humidity is 76% and inside it is 35%.
> 
> I had no idea our humidity here in the Central Valley was so high. We're in a drought with no measurable rain for many months, and I haven't run any sprinklers for a couple months either.



These are great to have. If you check the outside humidity later this afternoon I bet it will be closer to your inside humidity. Mine is always highest in the mornings.


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## Sulcata_Sandy

Team Gomberg said:


> Wow sandy, 8-12% RH? Now that IS DRY!



I know! It freaked me out when I was able to repeatedly record that RH. I recently lost a rescue who'd been housed on hay in an aquarium. Died of severe, chronic dehydration. No animal should live in 10% humidity. My father was kind enough to bury him on the family property. 

So I listen to Tom and Andy...two people I really respect from so many aspects of animal husbandry, experience and science. I grew up on a farm, raised many creatures, show, breed and train dogs processionally, am a 25 year veteran Licensed Vet Tech, was a pre-vet student...I can respect and sympathize anyone....so this thread has been interesting for me. I still admire both Andy and Tom, as both have a multitude of experience to offer.

Can you both agree to disagree? Take someone like me, for example....I'm a veterinary professional...I never finished Vet school do to nasty divorce. But I did complete 8 years of school, two of which I majored in microbiology. My farm background, and my 25 years as a working vet tech....I have a unique perspective on science and nature vs nurture. This is why both Tom and Andy have much to offer. I gleam what I can use from both. I have a duty to clients and the DVMs I work with to offer sound advice. 

Tom-there is a reason I bought two hatchlings from you...your experience, dedication, and years of proven results drew me to you. 

Andy-you are a pure scientist, I am drawn to that vs anecdotal "housewife" experience. Your methods are precise, your data is methodical and repeatable, your articles are well documented and fairly reviewed.

I kinda want a group hug right now.


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## lilacdragon

I'll second that, Sandy.

I propose that someone with a humidity meter does some serious humidity measurements, with gradients across the WHOLE cage/tank/tub/tortoise table, across a huge range of substrate types, heater/lamp types and spraying routines.
This info ought to be out there!
A lot could be done over a few days, if someone has some empty set-ups and access to assorted lamps, heaters and substrates...

It strikes me that although Andy has done quite detailed work on a set of shop-bought vivaria, and Tom has done a vast amount of work on humid method enclosures, there are dozens of other ways that torts are being housed and no-one has a clue as to what humidity they provide.
It reminds me of when I started measuring the output of UVB lamps, 10 years ago. Even some of the companies selling them had NO IDEA of their output!

Oops I ought to be back at work. This debate is too interesting


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## Sulcata_Sandy

lilacdragon said:


> I propose that someone with a humidity meter does some serious humidity measurements, with gradients across the WHOLE cage/tank/tub/tortoise table, across a huge range of substrate types, heater/lamp types and spraying routines.
> This info ought to be out there!
> A lot could be done over a few days, if someone has some empty set-ups and access to assorted lamps, heaters and substrates.



The same came be said for UVB exposure in our enclosures. Only a very small percentage of keepers have a UV meter. I recently bought one, still figuring it out (it reads results as XXX.X).

I can tweak your splendid idea, since we keepers all have differing enclosures/habitats, why don't we all do a study of our own enclosures. I have about 15 hygrometers, I keep at least two in each enclosure. Three of mine have ReptiFoggers, and I mist all of my tortoises twice a day (well, sometimes I forget [GRINNING FACE WITH SMILING EYES]). I'd be happy to document my temps/humidity and share. Maybe you or I can start a separate thread with our findings? While not scientific, the information can still be useful and possibly quite illuminating! As I found with those darn pellets! 10% RH....EEEEEK!

Anyone else interested in documenting their findings? Tom? 
Andy or Tom, is this a good idea? I'd love to hear your thoughts.


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## tortadise

Do do it accurately you need some pricy tools. Properly testing RH also conjectures with soil moisture content. Ambient humidity may be "good" but the start of it all is below and integraded in the soil systems. This is why I always recommend very deep and layered substrates. ECh species and their native environment dictates wwhich soils and layer systems I use.

For example. For my Egyptians. I use a first layer of clay about 4". Then an additional layer of pea gravel/sand. Then a layer of top soil capped with decomposed granite. When it "dews" ( I spray down with a sprayer) in the morning. It spikes humidity as it were a morning fog or climate change. Ounce it warms up the RH drops but at substrate level it still retains some moisture. That dwindles throughout the day as the temperature rises. Thusly creating a more stable natural climate. Constant humidity is never ideal in any environment. Even in rainforests the RH spikes and declines with temperatures infliction. Data loggers are the best tool for this measurement. They can set to daily hourly monthly weekly etc... settings. They also test the temperatures. Then you can test ambient and RH. 

I look at tortoise keeping like a house. You can't have a good house without a foundation. So providing proper enclosures in captivity, you have to have a good foundation. A natural foundation. Just mulch or coco coir does not suffice for me. I think its a huge issue. It seems to be the major problem with keepers maintaining proper temperatures and RH.


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## Dizisdalife

Sulcata_Sandy said:


> Tom-there is a reason I bought two hatchlings from you...your experience, dedication, and years of proven results drew me to you.
> 
> Andy-you are a pure scientist, I am drawn to that vs anecdotal "housewife" experience. Your methods are precise, your data is methodical and repeatable, your articles are well documented and fairly reviewed.
> 
> I kinda want a group hug right now.



As long as the hug includes a tortoise or two, I would agree. What I would add to your above reasoning is the Tom is someone that sincerely loves the tortoise. What he does, or does not do, is for the sake of the tortoise. He is a tortoise keeper. Has a life long interest in reptiles, but tortoises specifically. Tom has pets and babies. His are not subjects and specimens. They all have names and he knows each of their personalities. I just don't get that from reading Andy's articles and certainly not from his post here. I do agree that he is a pure scientist. Tom's writings are, in my opinion, understandable to the "housewife", or in my case the "average keeper" that Andy doesn't have the time to respond to.



lilacdragon said:


> I'll second that, Sandy.
> 
> I propose that someone with a humidity meter does some serious humidity measurements, with gradients across the WHOLE cage/tank/tub/tortoise table, across a huge range of substrate types, heater/lamp types and spraying routines.
> This info ought to be out there!
> A lot could be done over a few days, if someone has some empty set-ups and access to assorted lamps, heaters and substrates...
> 
> It strikes me that although Andy has done quite detailed work on a set of shop-bought vivaria, and Tom has done a vast amount of work on humid method enclosures, there are dozens of other ways that torts are being housed and no-one has a clue as to what humidity they provide.
> It reminds me of when I started measuring the output of UVB lamps, 10 years ago. Even some of the companies selling them had NO IDEA of their output!
> 
> Oops I ought to be back at work. This debate is too interesting



This would be interesting, but I am not sure what this would add. Andy has taken 25,000 measurements in the wild, including burrows, tunnels, scrapes, plus the studies on vivariums. One of his more interesting post, at least to me, showed that heat lamps reduced the RH significantly at the carapace. The physiology that was attributed to this spot seems to very damaging. This was not a surprise to me. It merely substantiated a hunch of mine that Tom and I discussed off line some 18 months ago.

To further the raising of smooth shelled healthy tortoises I feel that the real work is to be done in the area of lighting and heating of the average keepers enclosure. There have been some interesting post recently on TFO in both of those areas. Tells me that I am not the only one that was suspicious about those hot lamps. I am really not that smart after all. The technology is a little too pricey and obscure right now for us average keepers, but it will evolve. When we can sort out these issues, and understand why the tortoise needs to bask as opposed to just be warm, then we can indeed raise them in a more naturalistic manner. Something that Tom and Andy could both embrace.


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## Sulcata_Sandy

When I used the term "housewife" as far as anecdotal evidence is concerned, I by no means meant Tom. Tom is an advanced keeper, and has valid information and experience he's passed on to others over the course of many years.

When I say "housewife", it's what we in Veterinary Medicine refer to as people who, for example, have owned one dog for 15 years, and build Webpages or start a class and claim to be an expert and tell the true professionals who have advanced degrees or a lifetime of academic field work that they are idiots and no one should listen to their "stupid" veterinarian. 


Now back to the idea of TFO members obtaining non-scientific data for an interesting study on differing enclosure setups....because it will be realistic of what is out there in the tortoise keeping world. I can read Andy's brilliant studies on wild habitat all day long, but I live in a cold climate and my tortoise are wintered indoors about 9 months of the year. So while his data shows me what I should strive to achieve for said spp, it doesn't tell me what I can achieve in my own home...indoors or out.

If this project is done right, it would include a picture of the setup, description of substrate (type, depth, etc), lighting/heating products used, misting or fogging or both, then the various readings of temp and RH. I feel it would be useful for us to see what results we can achieve with various already exhibiting household setups. We can share and gleam ideas. Make suggestions for new people. What Andy can buy or have built, most pet keepers cannot, Tom posts lots of pix of his fantastic outdoor enclosures/hides, some members have posts elaborate, decorative houses, others are simple and a child can put it together. We can see what these various sets are producing in terms microclimates.


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## lilacdragon

Kelly, my instinctive response to reading your description is "Yes! That totally sounds right!"
Do you have a data logger that records these parameters? 
If so, then your recordings for the different habitats, for the species you keep, would be absolutely invaluable. Have you already published this? If not, would you consider doing so? 

My thoughts, though, are that your set-up is an ideal to be aspired to, but probably rarely imitated by many tortoise keepers for many reasons (even though it should be!)
I suspect a poll would reveal the majority of pet owners (as opposed to more dedicated keepers, if you know what I mean) who keep an indoor pet do use mulch, coir etc. and I think we need data on these "less ideal" things too. If only to explain why they are not suitable... I had no IDEA that alfalfa pellets caused that kind of dryness. I bet not many people do....!

So I think if any readers like Kelly have a data logger - do go for a really detailed study. It will have scientific credibility and should definitely be done.

But I also love Sandy's idea of a "forum data collection project" using just the simple tools most of us already have to hand. There is nothing as productive (and fun) as what's fashionably called "citizen science"..... and if enough people take part, what can be learned is usually every bit as valuable in practical terms as a fully "scientific" study. 
I just checked my own little cheap humidity meters. They are digital, and do have max and min recording. OK maybe not brilliantly accurate but not too disastrous... 
So anyone with one of these could do much better than Weisner and Iben  *LOL*  by recording at least once a day over a month or two, at substrate level, and re-setting the max-min each day! 
Go for it guys!


oops! While I was writing that, Sandy beat me to it. And said, better than I did, what I wanted to say...


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## tortadise

Yes I use these they are couple hundred bucks for the ones I got. Some are cheaper but may not read as well or as many time frames you seek to use. I like to record hourly, so I can see the spikes and drops in temperatures. http://www.logtagrecorders.com/products/trex.htm. I have not published anything yet. I do have plenty of records though. One day I will publish it into a book (being worked on slowly). What I try to do is accomadate as close to the wild habitat as possible. Sometimes flora and substrates cannot be totally mimiced. But as close to being natural as possible to achieve similar results. Where it gets really tricky is elevations. I have not yet researched or tried to apply (in great detail) the elevation and exposure differences. For example a higher elevation in which a species is found is going to have a much greater pressure, and UV exposure, and different RH and temperature flucuations than that of a lower elevation species. Longitudinal and Latitudinal coordinates are cruciual too. So many species can be found within a certain range. But be exposed to a slightly different microclimate. Therefore creating a somewhat different method to keeping said species. Which is why its important to know the locale or country of which species you have. It is very difficult to find out for some people. But I feel is an important key element in providing the perfect care. Yes it seems a little over kill to many. But not to me. Most people think of a red foot as a red foot. When in reality you have 5 phylogenic different ones, and over 35 different locale specific ones all living in complete different environments and micro climates through out South America. Dry forests, wet forest, dry grasslands, wet grasslands, wet canopy forests, cloud forests, arid evergreen forests, etc... The same care can be provided in captivity for all these types and achieve an active eating, moving, reproducing specimen for sure. But how well do we know its life expectancy? How do we know it isnt unhealthy, and just surviving. After all tortoises are to achieve one main objective in their life. Survive. Survive is of course a loaded term. Reproduce, Eat, Germinate seeds, sleep, move, hide, and repeat day in and day out...Survive. But are we letting them live or are we letting these tortoise survive? They are program to adapt and survive. So How do we know what we are doing in captivity is within exemplary standards in comparison to their wild life.

Anyways blah blah blah. To me a lot more is needed in keepers research before applying the challenge of keeping a tortoise. In research terms, I mean dont google "tortoise keeping". Find the one your interested in and research everything about where they are from, what kind of plants they are exposed to, soil systems, annual rain, seasonal patterns, pressures, UV radiation logs, elevations in which they are found, rivers systems and what kinds of water in those rivers, PH of soils, PH of water, Ph of plants, etc....


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## Dizisdalife

Sulcata_Sandy said:


> When I used the term "housewife" as far as anecdotal evidence is concerned, I by no means meant Tom. Tom is an advanced keeper, and has valid information and experience he's passed on to others over the course of many years.
> 
> When I say "housewife", it's what we in Veterinary Medicine refer to as people who, for example, have owned one dog for 15 years, and build Webpages or start a class and claim to be an expert and tell the true professionals who have advanced degrees or a lifetime of academic field work that they are idiots and no one should listen to their "stupid" veterinarian.



I sorta understood what you meant, Sandy. Didn't get the building web pages or telling Vets how to do their jobs part though. I am an average keeper/pet owner. I would never describe anyone as "stupid". Just not in my nature. Having advanced degrees myself (not in any medically related field) I am more inclined to show respect for a professional than some others would. The professionals that can talk to me in terms and language that I can understand are the ones that I will follow the advise of. The ones that talk over my head confuse me, making it hard to follow their advice. Fortunately I have a couple of good Vets that I work with. A reptile Vet that breeds leopards. A horse Doc that breeds race horses, a specialist for my birds, and a generalist for my cats, and a darn good mechanic for my 1963 Alfa Romeo Giulia 1600 Veloce. Now that's a different animal altogether. Think finding a qualified tortoise Vet is tough? 



Sulcata_Sandy said:


> Now back to the idea of TFO members obtaining non-scientific data for an interesting study on differing enclosure setups....because it will be realistic of what is out there in the tortoise keeping world. I can read Andy's brilliant studies on wild habitat all day long, but I live in a cold climate and my tortoise are wintered indoors about 9 months of the year. So while his data shows me what I should strive to achieve for said spp, it doesn't tell me what I can achieve in my own home...indoors or out.
> 
> If this project is done right, it would include a picture of the setup, description of substrate (type, depth, etc), lighting/heating products used, misting or fogging or both, then the various readings of temp and RH. I feel it would be useful for us to see what results we can achieve with various already exhibiting household setups. We can share and gleam ideas. Make suggestions for new people. What Andy can buy or have built, most pet keepers cannot, Tom posts lots of pix of his fantastic outdoor enclosures/hides, some members have posts elaborate, decorative houses, others are simple and a child can put it together. We can see what these various sets are producing in terms microclimates.


Not trying to throw a blanket on the experiment here. Andy's research, while exhaustive, really doesn't answer my day to day challenges of keeping a sulcata in Southern California. Although I do live in a semi-arid climate and my pet lives outdoors full time it is not his natural habitat. I can't imagine keeping one indoors (sulcata that is), well, for any any extended period. I can see where information obtained from the study you are proposing would be beneficial to hundreds of keepers that sulcata or leopards or any tortoise that is kept exclusively or mostly inside. I will certainly support the project and contribute what I can.

It is my belief that there have been some advances to both lighting and heating that will have bearing on how we keep our tortoises in the future. I would hate to see these overlooked because they are not in wide circulation at this point. I'll be looking forward to the start of this thread.


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## Yvonne G

We've really gotten far afield from the original message of the thread, which is, "What is the physiology behind pyramiding?"

I'd hate to lose all this good info because someone looking for lighting or substrate or whatever, moves beyond this thread because of the subject title.

I'd like to suggest that someone start a new thread with the lighting, substrate, etc. that has branched off, and stick to the subject in this thread.


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## tortadise

I agree Yvonne. I kinda steered it wrongly and added to it.


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## Kapidolo Farms

Well Andy, I don't get it. I met you enough times to know how you are communicating here is not in any way shape or form how you communicate in person. But that is deja vu from the first time I read e-mails of you - written on a listserve some 20 or so years ago, then meeting you - but now still. Come on dude. 

I'd still like to hear/read what your controlled conditions experiment would be to ascertain the nature pyramiding and how it relates to captive husbandry. Correlative or direct observation. That is the value from the W & I paper.

I popped that question out in response to your inquiry about the value of the W & I study, about page 15 of this protracted nothing new string on pyramiding.

Glad you are living near wild torts these days.

Peace out.


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## MyTortoise

*What Causes Pyramiding*

This is quite a difficult topic because I can't seem to find a straight answer. Can someone give me a simple answer?
My little tortoise seems to have a bit of pyramiding so I want to prevent anymore in the future!
Thanks


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## Yvonne G

*RE: What Causes Pyramiding*

There isn't a 'simple' answer. We've just had a very long and intensive thread about this subject, with debate between two very knowledgeable tortoise-keepers. If you type 'pyramiding' into the box up in the right corner of every page - the Google custom search box, you will have many, many threads where we've talked about this subject. Here's just one of them:

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-84819-page-2.html


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## ascott

*RE: What Causes Pyramiding*

lol...so, I am simply going to offer up a suggestion for you to go to the search bar here on the forum and enter one word "pyramiding" and you will have a gazillion reference points


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## Yvonne G

*RE: What Causes Pyramiding*

Simple answer - being kept too dry.


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## ascott

*RE: What Causes Pyramiding*

lol...see, and here we go....kinda like asking about brumation...

I am game....some will say not high enough humidity on a constant basis...while I do agree that a tortoise should have access to a warm humid hide/area...I also am a firm believer that alone is not the entire answer...diet, exercise and that wonderful bit shiny ball in the sky and the uv rays it offers is, to me, just as important....

next


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## Tom

*RE: What Causes Pyramiding*

Pyramiding is cause by growth in conditions that are too dry. We all agreed on that one. How much influence all the other factors like diet, UV, growth rate, exercise, stress, calcium, dietary fiber, etc., is very debatable.


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## mainey34

*RE: What Causes Pyramiding*

Humidity, hydration, exercise, proper diet, natural sunlight are your key factors.


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## ascott

*RE: What Causes Pyramiding*



> Pyramiding is cause by growth in conditions that are too dry. _*We all agreed on that one. How much influence all the other factors*_ like diet, UV, growth rate, exercise, stress, calcium, dietary fiber, etc., _*is very debatable.*_



Now Tom...you know I have nothing but love for ya man.... I know that you believe/recognize/support that the _reason_ pyramiding happens is because of dry conditions....I agree that hydration is imperative as well.

I have to add that, to dismiss other balanced factors (the "debatable" things you reference as _diet uv, growth rate, exercise, stress, calcium, dietary fiber, etc_. in my opinion, does a disservice to the overall health of a tortoise...there is no way to know, to prove, to absolutely verify that these things are not imperative just as hydration is....you know that I have to point this out, right? 

This is in the debatable section, yes?


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## Dizisdalife

*RE: What Causes Pyramiding*

I like Yvonne's simple answer.


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## Tom

*RE: What Causes Pyramiding*



ascott said:


> Pyramiding is cause by growth in conditions that are too dry. _*We all agreed on that one. How much influence all the other factors*_ like diet, UV, growth rate, exercise, stress, calcium, dietary fiber, etc., _*is very debatable.*_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now Tom...you know I have nothing but love for ya man.... I know that you believe/recognize/support that the _reason_ pyramiding happens is because of dry conditions....I agree that hydration is imperative as well.
> 
> I have to add that, to dismiss other balanced factors (the "debatable" things you reference as _diet uv, growth rate, exercise, stress, calcium, dietary fiber, etc_. in my opinion, does a disservice to the overall health of a tortoise...there is no way to know, to prove, to absolutely verify that these things are not imperative just as hydration is....you know that I have to point this out, right?
> 
> This is in the debatable section, yes?
Click to expand...


Yes ma'am. I knew you would have to, and I love you for it. The feeling is mutual. 

The OP did not ask what factors are involved in raising a HEALTHY tortoise. All of those factors are vitally important in raising a healthy tortoise. On that you and I agree. But I can show you NON-pyramided tortoises that never see UV or get outside at all, or eat a horrible diet, or that grew way too fast, or that live in a small tank, or that get no calcium supplementation, etc... How overall "healthy" any of these examples may be is questionable, but they are smooth.

Raising a SMOOTH tortoise, and raising a HEALTHY tortoise are not necessarily the same thing. You can do one without the other both ways. My older adults are very health but not smooth. My current lot of sulcatas are healthy AND smooth. I know a guy with two really big smooth sulcatas that have eaten cat kibble nearly every day of their lives.


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## gustaf

*Re: What Causes Pyramiding*

There is your answer. Care for your tort like Tom and Ascott and you will not fail.


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## ascott

*RE: What Causes Pyramiding*



> My older adults are very health but not smooth. My current lot of sulcatas are healthy AND smooth. I know a guy with two really big smooth sulcatas that have eaten cat kibble nearly every day of their lives.



I love love love this word "variables"  You rock Tom and you know I appreciate your contributions...absolutely ...


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