# Anyone else here tired of being deleted or fluffed?



## ascott (Sep 9, 2013)

Likely this thread will be deleted or fluffed before many will see....but going to give it a try anyways...well, to see if there is still any real forum here where folks can share....

I have noticed, more so recently, that many threads are having the posts fluffed for nice nice instead of allowing the thread to develop a life of its own---amongst the general population? 

Now, don't misunderstand.... I don't find it beneficial for folks to get into cussing matches or outright vicious attacks on one another..however, if there is a certain level of banter that takes place without harsh name calling or the like...then I believe the moderators should take their place in the shadows to enter a block post reminding folks to not be vicious---BUT I do not believe that moderators should be under the impression that the run this forum---that I believe is Josh. I also believe that this forum has been going on strong due to its members, right.....not solely moderators.

I also believe that moderators should be voted in and not simply clicked in....I mean are we not a forum full of members? Why do members not get to decide who the moderators will be? I believe that at present there are some less than adult acting moderators at work here and it truly is making this forum a playground more than a resource....

So, I have not blasted anyone person here....I have not cussed anyone out here....I have not slandered anyone here...but lets just see what comes of this thread. I would like to hear what some of the other members "feel" on this thread....

Thank you.


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## Yvonne G (Sep 9, 2013)

Well, I'll give you my reasoning as to why I 'fluff' some threads.

We have many youngsters who read the threads. We want to set a good example to those youngsters. We want them to understand how to be grown up about stating their opinions and disagreements. 

So when I see a thread disintegrating into a hot tempered mis-match, I will usually delete (move the offending post to the moderator section) a post.

Everyone is supposed to be allowed to have an opinion on the Forum. If someone else doesn't agree with that opinion, that's fine too. But you MUST be civil about your disagreement. How can we expect our youngsters to act like grown ups when we sometimes don't.

Way back when, before the first "other" forum was started, we had arguments, hash slinging, verbal abuse, etc. and this wasn't a very nice place to be. After we, the mods, cleaned it all up, I made the promise that I wouldn't stand for any of that behaviour any more, and I was just going to arbitrarily delete offensive posts/comments.

I've tried to go by our guidelines, and allow differing opinions to be posted, but sometimes its pretty hard when some members can't watch how they voice their differences.


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## ChaseNTx (Sep 9, 2013)

I'm a newbie to the forum so I have posted very few items, but as a new follower I am already growing very tired of the back biting, unnecessary sarcasm and just plain rudeness of some posts. I come to this forum to learn and seek experienced tortoise people's opinions, not read a bunch of attacks on others opinions or knowledge. I appreciate each and every piece of feedback am I given and generally enjoy reading the posts and learning from the experiences of other and and just wish others could play nice or take their toys else where to play.


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## ascott (Sep 9, 2013)

Yvonne, I should have said that this does not apply to you...and here is why I say that....you have in the past come on and advised/warned folks on a particular thread that things are going in a negative direction and that you will put a stop to it if the participating parties don't get back in line---this, in my opinion, is completely expected of a moderator...you even weigh in from time to time with your opinion on a subject (without apparent bias---and I bet this can be difficult at times) that may be a bit sideways....but you do not offend, you do not belittle, you do not tell someone that your way is the right way no ifs ands or butts....

You Yvonne, are a perfect example of what I refer to as a fair and impartial moderator....You have pm'd me from time to time with a courteous advise on why you did an adjustment or the like and I respect that about you....I am not saying there should not be moderator review--there absolutely should be.

But that moderator review should always be done by someone who is mature enough in nature to not allow personal feelings into the mix....and yes, there are young folks on here--but that does that mean they are so ultra fragile that they can not observe the way a variety of opinions and passions can ignite through a thread..? 

Like I said, I do not believe that folks should be cussing and directly viciously attacking one another due to a difference of opinion, not at all...


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## Kapidolo Farms (Sep 9, 2013)

ascott, I agree Yvonne has rare/good sensibilities.

I have had a few posts nicked, and in retrospect I would have to agree with the nicking, no matter how objective the observation behind the post, the wording was subjective and negative. Some people . . .

My single most popular thread by orders of magnitude was an angst over what I referred to as 'silly' posts infused into informative threads. 

What to do. 

I nominate you for moderator, if that is within your interest to direct things for the better.

Will


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## luvpetz27 (Sep 9, 2013)

I agree with Will!!
ascott for moderator!!!


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## Jacqui (Sep 9, 2013)

I for one am more tired of seeing other moderators feeling like they should be doing fluffing, then actualy seeing it get done. I wished all members could allow each other to express their opinions without turning it into a war or resorting to name calling. Sadly that's not the case and why Mods step in. We don't like it, but it's better then allowing it to go on and having members getting turned off by it (especially the new members who are here to learn).

Thank goodness Mods are not chosen by a vote, as often those would be the folks who break and bend the rules the most.

Plus never forget this is Josh's forum. He is the one who makes these choices, so he is who you should be complaining to.


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## lisa127 (Sep 9, 2013)

ChaseNTx said:


> I'm a newbie to the forum so I have posted very few items, but as a new follower I am already growing very tired of the back biting, unnecessary sarcasm and just plain rudeness of some posts. I come to this forum to learn and seek experienced tortoise people's opinions, not read a bunch of attacks on others opinions or knowledge. I appreciate each and every piece of feedback am I given and generally enjoy reading the posts and learning from the experiences of other and and just wish others could play nice or take their toys else where to play.



This is the only forum (well, one of two but both are chelonian forums) I have ever, ever belonged to that did not have a bunch of fighting and name calling. I have never seen rudeness or meanness of any kind here and I'm wondering why you say this? I have enjoyed this forum due to the lack of arguing and name calling. As I said, never have I belonged to a forum where it didn't get nasty. And I'm sorry, I'm an adult and don't have the patience for forums that have a bunch of juvenile arguing. So I say thank you for the "fluffing".


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## DeanS (Sep 9, 2013)

On the other hand...reality is a bit too much for some people to grasp...hence my virtual nonexistence here anymore...

OOPS! I can hardly see my cave from here...gotta run (back to seclusion)!

Angela...I hope you have your answer  Miss your narrations of my animals' activities!




Jacqui said:


> Plus never forget this is Josh's forum. He is the one who makes these choices, so he is who you should be complaining to.



...but he rarely takes heed...


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## Kapidolo Farms (Sep 9, 2013)

Have you ever walked into a bar that had "regulars", even a fern bar? Sometimes looks like guns are about to be drawn, knives flashed, and the women folk, well you know what I mean.

But those regulars are soooo often harmless, just having fun, and not so reserved about that fun. 

Several people speak with passion. I have spent 10's of 1,000's of hours doing herpetoculture, professionally and as a hobbyist. I have a few _firsts_, and still a few _only's_ in raising and breeding herps. I also have much experience with a rather large number of other groups of plants and animals. Some people seem to like to trifle with that. It's actually fun to some extent, but at times it is tiresome, and facts and data gots-to-be pressed into the dialogue. That kind of passion is why I like this TFO.

I too have been pressed with some gots-to-be said things. I've even slipped in a few unsavory words here and there, spelled such that if your kid is smart enough to sort it out, they are not that young and impressionable.

And then there is writing "this", and someone reading "that". Sticks and stones, you know.

Will


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## Yvonne G (Sep 9, 2013)

Well, I think its a pretty sad commentary when I get a PM and the writer asks me a private question about his tortoises because, "...And thank-you for answering. I like the forum, but where you use tact, some 
others seem to get really up set ."

We all need to think, actually THINK about what we want to say and especially about HOW we say it. There's no reason for belittling anyone with our answers.


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## jaizei (Sep 9, 2013)

ascott said:


> Now, don't misunderstand.... I don't find it beneficial for folks to get into cussing matches or outright vicious attacks on one another..however, if there is a certain level of banter that takes place without harsh name calling or the like...then I believe the moderators should take their place in the shadows to enter a block post reminding folks to not be vicious---BUT I do not believe that moderators should be under the impression that the run this forum---that I believe is Josh. I also believe that this forum has been going on strong due to its members, right.....not solely moderators.
> 
> I also believe that moderators should be voted in and not simply clicked in....I mean are we not a forum full of members? Why do members not get to decide who the moderators will be? I believe that at present there are some less than adult acting moderators at work here and it truly is making this forum a playground more than a resource....



I agree with your philosophy. I prefer to let threads develop as long as they remain mostly civil. But once someone crosses the line, the hammer comes down. Keep in mind that even if all you see on the public forum is posts disappearing and maybe an occasional warning on a thread, there is usually spirited discussions going on in the moderator section. I think we should strive to make the forum hospitable for everyone. Even those that don't agree with the most popular opinion. This is why I think making moderation a popularity contest is not a good idea. 

While this may not be completely relevant to your situation, I think it reminds us that things are not always as they appear. When I was a regular member, I thought that there was favoritism with regards to certain members that broke the rules often and then had a moderator come behind them and clean up the mess. I eventually realized that it was just a side effect. The moderators were just working to protect the forum and any benefits to those members were coincidental. I like to think this is still true. Even when we make mistakes, we (hopefully) have the forum's best interest in mind.



lisa127 said:


> This is the only forum (well, one of two but both are chelonian forums) I have ever, ever belonged to that did not have a bunch of fighting and name calling. I have never seen rudeness or meanness of any kind here and I'm wondering why you say this? I have enjoyed this forum due to the lack of arguing and name calling. As I said, never have I belonged to a forum where it didn't get nasty. And I'm sorry, I'm an adult and don't have the patience for forums that have a bunch of juvenile arguing. So I say thank you for the "fluffing".



I think it is testament to the system that is in place that your experience is shared by many. Blink and you will miss it. On the other hand, if you had read some of the deleted posts, you opinion of some members would probably change drastically.


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## DeanS (Sep 9, 2013)

jaizei said:


> I think it is testament to the system that is in place that your experience is shared by many. Blink and you will miss it. On the other hand, if you had read some of the deleted posts, you opinion of some members would probably change drastically.



You would know...Josh's biggest mistake!


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## Baoh (Sep 9, 2013)

I would rather see things play out, but this is not something I have ownership of. Depending upon how the clipping is done, it can also dramatically alter the appearance of the exchange into something it may not be, thereby potentially creating a false impression. It may sometimes be difficult to avoid, but I find it sad when it does happen.




DeanS said:


> jaizei said:
> 
> 
> > I think it is testament to the system that is in place that your experience is shared by many. Blink and you will miss it. On the other hand, if you had read some of the deleted posts, you opinion of some members would probably change drastically.
> ...



I disagree.


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## ascott (Sep 9, 2013)

> Depending upon how the clipping is done, it can also dramatically alter the appearance of the exchange into something it may not be, thereby potentially creating a false impression



Absolutely. As pointed out, everyone has a different take on the same story ---every time. 

Therefore, if a moderator is going in and going to remove the entire post that is one thing (but that moderator should also be required to pm the party involved)...a moderator should not be allowed to EDIT a post and remove some of it and leave some of it--as this totally is infringement on the writers point----so intrusive and creates a different meaning all together....this should just not be allowed...after all--a moderator does not hold special mind reading skills...so to think that they are doing a good thing is a mistake... delete and pm parties involved or leave it as is...but don't monkey with someones point and tweak it to something else....


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## cemmons12 (Sep 10, 2013)

Well, I just want to say, "Wow"! I guess that's my .02. Now have a good day my forum friends!


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## CharlieM (Sep 10, 2013)

I am a moderator on a bird forum. When there is a problem the post is hidden and discussed behind the scenes and a PM is sent out alerting the member that their post was hidden for the various reason. The member is encouraged to edit their own post before its released back to public. This way the member is involved in the process. We never randomly edit of fluff anything and only delete if the member won't edit. Not saying that's right or wrong but it does help the member understand what's happening.


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## yagyujubei (Sep 10, 2013)

When a post is changed from the original without the knowledge of the original posted, it's censorship plain and simple. So I guess we have to address others on here as if they're a ten year old, just in case there's one listening. I said "holy crap" once in a post, and it was changed to "gee willikers" or "my goodness gracious" or something similar. I thought that that change portayed me as an idiot, since I don't talk like that. The forum has to decide what members they want here, knowledgable people that believe in what they're saying, or very nice and polite posters that know nothing and talk like eight year olds.


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## Irish (Sep 10, 2013)

yagyujubei said:


> The forum has to decide what members they want here, knowledgable people that believe in what they're saying, or very nice and polite posters that know nothing and talk like eight year olds.



Totally agree, and a healthy debate should always be respected. Agree to disagree.


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## IBeenEasy (Sep 10, 2013)

love the forum, but i do agree there are some 'know it alls" here...an most of the time..the rude coments are being said to a newbie whos just excited and has alot of questions and might have been guided in the wrong direction...those people come here for friendly advice..not to be mocked or made in fun of...which alot of the "regulars" , older members and some mods doo..quite alot.... why cant we all just be a big happy turtle family!!! new turtle lovers, old tortoise owners, we can be the TURTLE GANG!!! LOL


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## CharlieM (Sep 10, 2013)

yagyujubei said:


> I said "holy crap" once in a post, and it was changed to "gee willikers" or "my goodness gracious" or something similar. I thought that that change portayed me as an idiot, since I don't talk like that.




Hilarious! I'm sure not to you though.


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## abclements (Sep 10, 2013)

A little off topic, but my personal opinion on the matter is, that debate is good within reason... but I think the main reasons for giant name calling matches, is simply a misunderstanding. The problem with reading instead of listening, is that you get to make up their tone of voice in your head, no matter how the other person meant it. Then this progresses into hurt feelings and blow ups. Not saying this is always the case, but I bet it's pretty accurate at least sometimes. On the other hand, some people feel "safe" behind a user name and say things that shouldn't be said at all, and wouldn't be said if it was a face to face conversation. I hate seeing new members come on here and their "hey I'm new with questions" thread get turned into a pissing match between 2 long term members about wet vs dry, indoors vs outdoors, Mazuri or no... everybody keeps their torts differently! The best thing you can do is give your advice, back It up with why and let the new member make a decision on how they will raise THEIR tort. No arguing after, just present opinion and leave it at that.

Anyways, long story short, I believe mods do the right thing by fluffing, but we as members also need to assume the best in each other, not take correction personally and agree to disagree sometimes. Just my thoughts on the matter...


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## DeanS (Sep 10, 2013)

*[split] [split] Anyone else here tired of being deleted or fluffed?*



Baoh said:


> I would rather see things play out, but this is not something I have ownership of. Depending upon how the clipping is done, it can also dramatically alter the appearance of the exchange into something it may not be, thereby potentially creating a false impression. It may sometimes be difficult to avoid, but I find it sad when it does happen.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Of course you do...since you're his clone...or vice versa! And I hope you have a *BS* in Science...as I'm sure that's your specialty!


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## Kapidolo Farms (Sep 10, 2013)

Fluffed = Edited? Wholly crap -> gee whilickers

To say _Fluff_ when you mean _edit_, is fluff.

I don't think I have been edited. I agree fully that editing should be channelled back to the original poster (OP). When I have had posts deleted, I reposted the same material, with less passion.

I have had peer reviewed text edited and published without it going back through me, and it makes the writing published by one author more accurately/honestly a co-authored text without credit to the co-author/ editor. That is dishonest. 

To edit and not say the text was edited is a dishonest means of depicting whatever was written. Mainstream magazine and journals at least use ( blah blah blah _eds_) when something has been edited.

The alternative is to reject the post for revision by the author.

If the mods are editing, or rejecting without notice to author or 'public disclosure' of edited or deleted posts, the entire TFO has no credibility.

The TFO is a public place designed to generate an income, say like a cafe. We come here and chat, while a product is being sold (advertising space). But if there is poor service (undisclosed alteration of content) then the cafe looses credibility. 

The clicks on the pop-up ads (which are based on cookies in YOUR computer or mobile device) and the paid banner ads must be working.

But unlike the cafe, the fixed costs are all done, there is fixed labor, Josh doing this or that, and volunteer (free) labor, the Mods.

If a Mod has told a lie, by undisclosed editing (fluff) or deletion without disclosure (censorship) then vote with your dollar, and never, NEVER click on an ad link in the TFO. 

Naive as it may seem for me to say, I really hope none of the Mods are liars, cause undisclosed editing and censorship is lying. Those are falsehoods of the most despicable kind. It is the same crime as selling placebos as the real drug, though here the result is not as tragic. 

Labeling one thing as another is dishonest.

To fluff a text, without disclosure, and leaving the posters name alone on the text is just that, a mis-label, a lie, told by the mod, and signed by the person who made the post. How can there ever be trust in the content?

Don't get sidetracked by what is changed or why. To change it and not say, is a lie.

I did not know we had that going on here, Thanks ascott for stepping over that line and bringing it out.

Will


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## Moozillion (Sep 10, 2013)

This is just my personal opinion. One of the reasons I stay with this forum is BECAUSE of active Moderators. I have checked out other forums and was totally turned off by the condescending, belittling nature of many of the posts there. Moderating is not an easy job, and there will never be 100% agreement on it, but I feel it helps keep the forum focused. Just my 2 cents.


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## cemmons12 (Sep 10, 2013)

To add to my earlier .02, I also believe sometimes that "good friends" will joke in a thread and others will take it out of context. I know its happened to me. Nobody's fault, you can't expect the mod's to know the personal on goings of everyone on here and how they get along and speak to each other in private pm's. So does this mean I have contributed .04 now? 

Sent from my DROID2 GLOBAL using TortForum mobile app


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## allegraf (Sep 10, 2013)

Healthy debate is one thing, but when members can't or won't control themselves and start name calling that is inappropriate and unnecessary. Unfortunately, some members cannot continue a healthy debate without feeling like it is a personal attack and resort to name calling and cursing. That behavior is also the biggest reasons I have limited my posts on the forum. The mods have a tough job and I wouldn't want it, so I give them kudos.


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## tortadise (Sep 10, 2013)

Some great words and opinions have been described here. This is my first forum, and first time being a moderator on such online dealings. I use to take debate classes and participate in a Mock United Nations college yearly debate scenario. I learned a lot from it. In that life experience, I could recognize many different types of people adding to their factual debate on international matters. However the difference was that it was done face to face. A lesson I learned to justify your arguments, beliefs, and thesis of agreements, or disagreements. That being said and many years ago. The new and improved internet, has given a change to peoples views, and opinions in the manor of how they are allocated or described by themselves. I recently saw a news feed story, about how people use fake profiles on social media sites to luer or trick people into believing they are some else. What purpose this brings I have no idea. The only parallelisms I can associate with stories like that are; hidden identity behind a screen. 

So in typing what I described above really doesnt have a point. I just though maybe I would throw it out there.

Back to my initial point. Most people can see the same word but have to interpretaions of the meaning of that word. Even though it is the same word, the same fact, or the same prinicple being brought up in discussions of husbandry, whether keeping multiple tortoises together, what to feed, etc... I feel the clicks, or social diversisications that can be brought amongst two members have caused an "unliking" of one another for some reason between those two members. 

In terms of fluffing or deleting. We as moderators do bring up any topic, discussion, thread or any harmful, personal attacks, or uncalled for statements. As yvonne stated we do have keep an order within a certain limitations. These limitations need to be rated to a "all ages" threshold. I try not to delete what people say without letting them know, and also have a discussion with other moderators before doing so. 

I am sure nothing I said depicts an image of clarity. But hopefully it makes some sort of sense to people reading.


A good quote from an unknown author

"I learn something new everyday. If in the event you do not learn something new everyday than perhaps we as humans, have not an open mind for mature stable growth of experience. Respect is a crucial element to learning the fastest from others."


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## Grandpa Turtle 144 (Sep 10, 2013)

Now I haven't been here long but remember the only reason we have " mods is to get us to do what we know 
Are the right things and don't want to 
So we have mods to get it right
They have a difficult job w/o any pay 
And we cannt Evan thank them
And I don't hear anyone saying oh please make me a mod now I'm sorry 
For my 5 cents


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## mikeh (Sep 10, 2013)

Well put Will. 

On a side note, I suspect the original poster here had her post reply significantly altered as I followed the thread in which this edit occurred. I was surprised by her "edited" post. The post and the meaning of was altered giving a false sense of the poster and her views on the subject. I would have not known any of this if the poster did not express her concern in this thread.

This somewhat reminds me of a pattern seen in the former communist country where I come from.

sent from mobile device using TFO app


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## DeanS (Sep 10, 2013)

Baoh said:


> I would rather see things play out, but this is not something I have ownership of. Depending upon how the clipping is done, it can also dramatically alter the appearance of the exchange into something it may not be, thereby potentially creating a false impression. It may sometimes be difficult to avoid, but I find it sad when it does happen.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





You would! Being as you're his clone...or vice versa! Or are you conjoined twins?!?!?

PLEASE NOTE: EVERY COMMENT I'VE MADE TODAY HAS BEEN DELETED...EVEN IN A *DEBATABLE* DISCUSSION...ONE IS NOT FREE FROM BIG BROTHER!


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## Saleama (Sep 10, 2013)

I am pretty new here and other than a few long time tort keepers jumping on newbies I have received nothing but good advice. I would advise the "experts" on here to understand that many of us have in fact, researched the animals we want to get but have been given contradictory (to what is advised here and not on here) advice by different keepers and or breeders. One must remember that being "an" expert on something does not make you "the" expert on that subject. Often these subjects then get heated and the original poster gets nothing helpful out of the thread. I read a post on temperatures the other day that was a good example of this. I myself got great things from the thread as I have two very different kinds of animals that fell into both arguements, but the person with the original question was forced into a situation where they had to decide who to listen to.

Anyway, I am very grateful of all the stuff this forum has given me and I am sure my Torts and Boxies will be better off for it so as long as we all agree that there is a mutual love for the animals, why should there be much fighting? Long time experts please be more patient and when there are questions be mindful that when YOU argue on those posts, the odd man out that doesn't get what they need is the tortoise or turtle in question...


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## Yvonne G (Sep 10, 2013)

DeanS said:


> PLEASE NOTE: EVERY COMMENT I'VE MADE TODAY HAS BEEN DELETED...EVEN IN A *DEBATABLE* DISCUSSION...ONE IS NOT FREE FROM BIG BROTHER!



Better go back and re-read the thread before you make such comments. For example...#27?

I thought your reference to BS was not called for, and deleted the comment. The person who it was directed towards asked me to put it back. If you would keep your comments clean and make your point without bad-mouthing someone else, you wouldn't have to worry about being censored.


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## DeanS (Sep 10, 2013)

Yvonne G said:


> DeanS said:
> 
> 
> > PLEASE NOTE: EVERY COMMENT I'VE MADE TODAY HAS BEEN DELETED...EVEN IN A *DEBATABLE* DISCUSSION...ONE IS NOT FREE FROM BIG BROTHER!
> ...



Yvonne...you're but one of a very few in the mod circle that I even have a modicum of respect for! I'm not worried about being censored...I just think it's ridiculous...and shows the thin-skinned nature of admin, members and mods alike! Once upon a time, we were allowed to swear using special characters to masquerade strategic parts of a word...now *BS* is offensive? Really!?!?!?




Yvonne G said:


> Better go back and re-read the thread before you make such comments. For example...#27?



Huh?


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## Yvonne G (Sep 10, 2013)

Well, it looks like its gone again. I'll have to do a little more reading to see what's happening.

But, it wasn't the "BS" that was offensive, it was the fact that you said the member you were talking about was full of it.


Sorry...it's post #23 that was reinstated, not #27.


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## DeanS (Sep 10, 2013)

Yvonne G said:


> Well, it looks like its gone again. I'll have to do a little more reading to see what's happening.
> 
> But, it wasn't the "BS" that was offensive, it was the fact that you said the member you were talking about was full of it.



No...it's still there...and Baoh knows it's true...and I said it was his specialty...i.e. lies!

Yvonne...PM in progress!


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## stinax182 (Sep 10, 2013)

*Re: RE: Anyone else here tired of being deleted or fluffed?*



yagyujubei said:


> When a post is changed from the original without the knowledge of the original posted, it's censorship plain and simple. So I guess we have to address others on here as if they're a ten year old, just in case there's one listening. I said "holy crap" once in a post, and it was changed to "gee willikers" or "my goodness gracious" or something similar. I thought that that change portayed me as an idiot, since I don't talk like that. The forum has to decide what members they want here, knowledgable people that believe in what they're saying, or very nice and polite posters that know nothing and talk like eight year olds.



i agree.

Sent from my MB886 using TortForum mobile app


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## mattgrizzlybear (Sep 10, 2013)

He he he... Fluffed


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## Tom (Sep 10, 2013)

I have a suggestion: When and if a post needs to be "cleaned up" or deleted, the moderator who is doing the deed should be required to notify the member with a brief explanation.

I have had many a post disappear into thin air. No explanation. No reason that I could see as no forum rules were broken. I think it would be simple common courtesy to let a member know why their input and effort was deleted. I find it highly disconcerting and upsetting when my posts disappear, and there have been a few times where I received no explanation, and no mod would take responsibility even after a request for who dunnit.

I believe this is the type of censorship that Will so kindly explained, and I agree with Will that it hurts the credibility of this great forum. This perceived favoritism, even if it is a misunderstanding, has caused many a new person, and some long term members too, to leave this forum. What I don't like, and what I think Dean is referencing, is that it seems like some moderators don't like some of the members. This is totally natural, normal and acceptable to me, as we are all human. If one of the mods who I respect and has shown me courtesy and respect in the past (Yvonne, for just one example) feels the need to tone down one of my more passionate posts, I have no problem with that. I would like to be made aware of it, but I understand it and have told her so in the distant past. But when my work is edited or deleted anonymously, and it does not seem justified according to the forum rules, I cannot help feeling some animosity toward this perceived injustice. Knowing that at least two mods clearly do not like me and have demonstrated marked discord toward me in the past, makes it even worse.

Mods, Will you please just let us know who dunnit and why? I think this policy might also slow down that finger on the delete button. Right now theses things are done anonymously and with no recourse. This is not fair or just and no member likes this.

And while we are on the subject. I wish to publicly thank our volunteer mod team for all of the hours they spend making tough judgement calls and trying to keep this forum as healthy and happy as they can. There is no way that every member will agree with every judgement call, but overall they do a good job. They also spend many hours doing monotonous boring tasks behind the scenes, that we don't even know about, and they deserve thanks for that too. Thanks mods.


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## Tim/Robin (Sep 10, 2013)

DeanS said:


> ...hence my virtual nonexistence here anymore...



Dean, you are in good company. Welcome to the HUGE crowd that refuse to post here due to the moderators!!! This very topic was discussed by MANY at the Daytona Expo!!!! Look at the average "join date" of those who post. The "old timers" have gotten fed up with the poor moderation and refuse to participate. It is a shame and a disservice to our tortoises and those wanting to learn, but a reality none the less. Other tortoise forums exist that are not moderated in this way!!


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## Tom (Sep 10, 2013)

Tim you are one of the ones I was referring to. I'm really bummed that you aren't here much anymore, but I do understand why. If things improve, I will be PMing and emailing you and asking you to return.


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## Jacqui (Sep 10, 2013)

Tom as one of the mods who you think: "Knowing that at least two mods clearly do not like me and have demonstrated marked discord toward me in the past, makes it even worse." I can honestly tell you that any time I have a problem with terms you use for folks and such, I don't delete you (nor does the person who I also think your referring to). What we do (and the rest of the team) is to place your posts (or other questionable) posts into the Mod area for us *all* to talk about and decide on a course of action. The general membership has no idea how much time we spend trying to be fair to everybody, especially those we are preceived to both like and dislike so all are treated as equally as possible... it's also why our Mod team is made up of folks with different "likes" and beliefs, so things are even and fair.

I rarely do simple "flufffing" as we seem to be calling it, I may be able to even count this year's on one hand. I did more in the past and I would write with it something like: "deleted by Mod Jacqui for name calling". We found that method did not work and I was told to stop. I do try to warn on the thread that something is going off topic and to stay on topic or to stop this or that behavior or further action will be needed. 

Also while you in the general public may not know who deleted or apprved a post, we Mods (and Josh ) do. Moderator actions go onto a list. So it's not like something we can do on the sly, we do basically review each others work and at times ask why something was done. Besides moving a post (or thread) to the Mod section to talk about, we also have a "To Be Deleted" section where we move still more "deleted" threads and posts and we make comments on. To make it clear, threads and posts while appearing deleted to the public are not and are open to the Mods and Josh to review. So there are some checks and balances in place.




Tim/Robin said:


> DeanS said:
> 
> 
> > ...hence my virtual nonexistence here anymore...
> ...



I have to agree. I get told about that by so many "old timers" and new folks who left because we Mods bent over backwards to allow folks to speak their minds and didn't close things down faster. Just goes to show you, you can't please everybody. So glad there are other forums out there so those unhappy with one can find another one that may fit them better.


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## CharlieM (Sep 10, 2013)

Why can't the member who posted get notification that a post needs editing or it will be deleted? This puts the responsibility back on the person posting and they stay involved in the process. If they choose not to its deleted. I'm 100% against mods editing someone's posts without any notice.


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## Jacqui (Sep 10, 2013)

Let get this straight.... what your wanting is if Member Z makes a post name calling Member B (or any other rule breaking), the Mods need to remove the entire post off public view, PM member Z about the problem, have Member Z rewrite the post, and repost it? Or does the new post have to go through the Mods to make sure it meets the rules?


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## CharlieM (Sep 10, 2013)

Not the entire thread... Just any posts needing to be addressed. A PM is sent out explaining that a post has been hidden and needs editing. Once edited it will return. 
We do this on the finch forum I moderate.


Why not make the member fix it rather than one if you guys "fluffing" it for them.


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## Jacqui (Sep 10, 2013)

CharlieM said:


> Not the entire thread... Just any posts needing to be addressed. A PM is sent out explaining that a post has been hidden and needs editing. Once edited it will return.
> We do this on the finch forum I moderate.



I did just say the post or in most cases it would end up as posts because Member B no doubt responded back in kind, Member Z did another "nasty" type post and usually somebody else joined in as a second to either MemberZ or B. 

Also in your forum, what if the post is only still in the stage of the Mods trying to decide if it does or does not cross the lines? If just one Mod thinks it does, do we send the PM? Or do we wait until the Mods rule?


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## lynnedit (Sep 10, 2013)

allegraf said:


> Healthy debate is one thing, but when members can't or won't control themselves and start name calling that is inappropriate and unnecessary. Unfortunately, some members cannot continue a healthy debate without feeling like it is a personal attack and resort to name calling and cursing. That behavior is also the biggest reasons I have limited my posts on the forum. The mods have a tough job and I wouldn't want it, so I give them kudos.



I agree. We can all learn about tortoises (and turtles) w/o a thread turning into some kind of obscure series of references and innuendoes.
I just want to learn. Period.
I believe the moderators do a terrific job.


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## CharlieM (Sep 10, 2013)

Again, involving the members and encouraging us to play nice and be responsible will help in the long run. By deleting of "fixing" posts for us we aren't motivated to change. Just my opinion.


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## Jacqui (Sep 10, 2013)

Charlie I like the form you sent me (thank you) and I think with some changes it could work for us. I have made a thread in the Mod section seeing what the other Mods (and Josh) think. To me it's worth a try, even if in the end it fails to work for us.


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## CharlieM (Sep 10, 2013)

Great. Thank you.


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## sibi (Sep 10, 2013)

I've only been on this forum for a little over a year now. I came here with some knowledge and experience with water turtles, but had no idea how to raise my sulcatas properly. I read and read and did some research. I learn rather quickly, as I suppose many members did too. Many here had aided me to improve on the husbandry of my animals. For that I'm deeply grateful to this forum and all the combined experiences that were shared. I've enjoyed members like DeanS and others who no longer post here.

I get the issues and Angela's concerns. I agree with many here on both sides of the debate, but, like Will, I was unaware that sometimes comments are edited w/o the courtesy of even informing the writer of the "fluff" that would replace their word(s). Fundamentally, there is something really wrong with the covert operation of altering the expression that was once made public. Some call it a lie, and others would brand this action as communistic. I say it's unfortunate...for the member whose words were changed...for the members who just realized this practice was going on...for the mods who had to police and carried the burden of criticism for doing their jobs. 

This is a public forum. As members, we have to follow rules of membership, but there's no written rule that says this "fluff, or editing" would be practiced. We should all be outraged that this has been allowed because we assume we live by democratic principles in a democratic society, of which this forum is a beneficiary. As such, when those principles are violated, an overwhelming sense of injustice is felt and members begin to leave or remain silent. Is that what this forum has become? 

Tom made some sensible suggestions that can restore a sense of fairness to all members including the mods and Josh. Making the poster aware that a word or expression will be edited is not only fair, but it's the right thing to do. If the poster refuses to let it be edited, then the comment should be deleted. But, allowing mods to arbitrarily change the writer's word(s) is wrong, undemocratic, and dictatorial. 

Having said this, I admit that I'm one member who has participated in a few heated debates that I'm not particularly proud of. I think of the new members reading insults being flung from every corner and I apologize to everyone who had been offended by it. I'm human and I'm passionate about what I believe in. If I feel I'm being picked on, ridiculed, misunderstood, or just disrespected, I will lash out. Having this discussion has made me WANT to be better, not just for myself, but for the new members who are seeking help as we all once did.


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## Tom (Sep 10, 2013)

Jacqui, I am aware of the system of checks and balances and I'm aware of how it works. Still, the person whose post has disappeared has the right, in my opinion, to know who took their thread off the forum and why. You all may have an unseen system of checks and balances, but as far as we are all concerned, you might as well not. We don't see it happen, we don't know who said what about what. We don't know anything at all except that our post is gone. If I knew who took it down, I could send a PM offering an explanation, or offer a solution or revision, as Charlie has suggested.

What I'm asking for is some basic accountability for moderator action. Accountability from the MEMBERS point of view, not just the hidden, behind the scenes stuff that we are not privy to.

Don't you think that if Tim knew who was messin' with his stuff and why, he might not have been so frustrated that he felt the need to depart the forum and stop posting? If he knew who was doing it and what their reason was, he could appeal to other mods or Josh and feel like he was at least being heard. Of course you can't please all the people all the time, but a little due process, accountability and transparency, might keep the frustration levels low enough that experienced, knowledgable, helpful people like Tim, don't feel compelled to leave because their grievances cannot be redressed.

Sorry to use Tim as an example. There are dozens like him who left for similar reasons. Nobody wants to feel like the hidden hand of Big Brother can drop down unseen and invalidate all your time and effort spent trying to make a point.


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## Jacqui (Sep 10, 2013)

Tom said:


> .. or offer a solution or revision, as Charlie has suggested.



Tom did you miss above where I already had said I had taken Charlie's sugestion to he Mods andJosh? If not, please go back and read what I wrote.




Tom said:


> Don't you think that if Tim knew who was messin' with his stuff and why, he might not have been so frustrated that he felt the need to depart the forum and stop posting? If he knew who was doing it and what their reason was, he could appeal to other mods or Josh and feel like he was at least being heard. Of course you can't please all the people all the time, but a little due process, accountability and transparency, might keep the frustration levels low enough that experienced, knowledgable, helpful people like Tim, don't feel compelled to leave because their grievances cannot be redressed.



Okay using Tim as an example, *several Mods* even told him on public threads what and why things were being done.  PMs were sent. He was heard. He also talked to Josh. I am not going to get into a rehash.


*I think we all need to keep in mind in about 99% of these cases of "fluffs" and deletions, they are caused by folks not allowing others to voice opinions, experiences, and beliefs dfferent then their own without name calling and belittling . As I have taken steps to see if we can change things by using Charlie's idea, I would hope others in here would also step up to the plate and curb the need for such actions to happen in the first place. Allow ALL voices to be heard and heard equally. Let's not lose more members (both old and new) because they feel afraid to speak up or are treated badly when they do.*




Jacqui said:


> Charlie I like the form you sent me (thank you) and I think with some changes it could work for us. I have made a thread in the Mod section seeing what the other Mods (and Josh) think. To me it's worth a try, even if in the end it fails to work for us.



Tom this is the post you seemed to have missed.


For now, I am done commenting on this thread. We have a possible solution to try and I want to wait and see how that works and/or what the other Mods feel about it.


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## Tom (Sep 10, 2013)

I saw all of that Jacqui. I have no way of knowing what that form is or if it addresses the specific concerns or suggestions that I have brought up.

Does Charlie's form tell an OP that his or her work is about to be edited or deleted and why? Does it let the OP know which mod is evaluating the "problem"? Frankly, given my history with some of the people associated with our forum, I want to know who is handling my business. That matters to me.


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## ascott (Sep 10, 2013)

> If the mods are *editing, or rejecting without notice to author or 'public disclosure' of edited or deleted posts,* the entire TFO has no credibility.



This is exactly what has taken place. There have been two threads that I have participated on that this is exactly (to the T) what happened (and I would never known it took place had I not purposely revisited the thread only to find I had been fluffed/edited)....this is the act of crime....I understand if a moderator is hesitant on a post going live----however, if you act and stop/hide/remove/delete/fluff/edit without notice (what ever word works for each) then you have completely altered the meaning--so just delete the post and _*notify the poster....why is that so difficult?*_ Why are members required to follow "protocol" but moderators have carte blanche to hide in the moderator section and monkey with folks posts????..going on and on about how tough their job is?? really, if it is so taxing then don't do it...just not correct nor appropriate action....I mean, if I found myself in a position to either delete or leave, I would delete and send a pm....if the party was pissed then so be it...at least THEY HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY to be pissed for the right reason ...we can go kick some rocks and come back with a different way to express the initial point...


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## Jacqui (Sep 11, 2013)

Tom said:


> I saw all of that Jacqui. I have no way of knowing what that form is or if it addresses the specific concerns or suggestions that I have brought up.
> 
> Does Charlie's form tell an OP that his or her work is about to be edited or deleted and why? Does it let the OP know which mod is evaluating the "problem"? Frankly, given my history with some of the people associated with our forum, I want to know who is handling my business. That matters to me.




Tom, the matter would be handled by the "team", which means all of us give our input. The form states that there is a problem, what it is, and that the member can either change it (and give it back to us to review) and that once it's okay with the team it wil go back out. I hate to give specifics at this point, becase the form has to be modified for use in this forum. Once that is done (if the Mods and Josh approve of trying it), then we will post for all of you to see what it is like.


... just or the record folks, I do know what it is like to have a hard work on post be deleted. It's worse when your post is deleted because the ome you were replying to got deleted, so you actually did nothing wrong but rather your post did not mean anything after the first deletion is done. Been here.

And Tom to clarify so you have no questions on it, the 'team' in almost every ruling comes down to Yvonne, Barb, Cameron, and I. At times the others also add their thoughts. So the "team" should not be weighing in favor of any member.


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## yagyujubei (Sep 11, 2013)

Since the moderators frequently post/discuss as members, even argue as members, their credibility comes into question when they can simply remove threads that they feel don't belong. If they remove a comment from a member whose viewpoint they opposed openly it looks like a case of removing the evidence. Lets say several persons AND a moderator are in opposition to another person in a discussion, and the opposition's posts suddenly disappear, the jist of the entire thread changes. No more argument, no more discussion. People reading the thread don't even know that someone was opposed. Not notifying the author, that their thread has been changed/removed, is just a lack of common courtesy. It has happened to me at least ten times. I had several posts removed from this thread alone. When I find that odd lack of continuity in a thread, I always think "I wonder what was removed and why - what don't they want me to see?"


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## Tim/Robin (Sep 11, 2013)

Jacqui said:


> Okay using Tim as an example, *several Mods* even told him on public threads what and why things were being done.  PMs were sent. He was heard. He also talked to Josh. I am not going to get into a rehash.



Absolutely NOT true!!! I was NOT heard!!! Josh DID NOT "talk" to me regarding the completely unfair handling of those posts. Complete lies Jacqui!!!


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## Jacqui (Sep 11, 2013)

Tim/Robin said:


> Jacqui said:
> 
> 
> > Okay using Tim as an example, *several Mods* even told him on public threads what and why things were being done.  PMs were sent. He was heard. He also talked to Josh. I am not going to get into a rehash.
> ...



I guess all those PMs you sent me alone are all in my imagination? I am sure other Mods and Josh may have some of theirs hanging around still too. I do not rewrite history (and have no need to), I leave that for others who feel the need to. Like I said before, I am not going to rehash this any more. It is in the past. Constantly going back into the past just to stir up trouble, does not help the forum of today to move forward.


As in any debate, I said my thoughts and gave a reply back, I will not be drawn into these games futher. The forum does not need this.


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## Tom (Sep 11, 2013)

I was going to drop the whole Tim thing as I do not know what did or did not happen, and its none of my business other than what Tim himself has chosen to share.

His assessment of the situation, coupled with Jacqui's assessment of the situation illustrates the enormous disconnect between the members and what happens "behind closed doors" with the mods. I have met Tim in person. He is not some unreasonable hot head whacko. He is very rational, reasonable and well spoken. He is also a very polite and just "normal" person. If he is feeling this way, and many others obviously also feel this way, perhaps we should take it as an indication that there is a problem that needs addressing.

Whatever it is that is happening here, whoever's perception we choose to favor, the fact is that members of Tim's caliber are being driven away. Members like me, yagyujubei and Angela, are not happy with what goes on. That is a sad sad thing for a tortoise forum. Many of our more experienced members just choose not to contribute. I have had the same thing happen as yagyujubei, and I share the same perception of the situation.

Maybe this is just an unavoidable side effect of human nature, and things that happen when a large group of people is assembled, but maybe with some thought and effort we can improve the situation and get people like Tim to want to stick around and contribute their vast knowledge to our forum.

This is not an attack on the forum or its mods. Its simply acknowledgement that there is a problem that really ought to be addressed, in the interest of bettering the forum.


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## Jacqui (Sep 11, 2013)

yagyujubei said:


> Since the moderators frequently post/discuss as members, even argue as members, their credibility comes into question when they can simply remove threads that they feel don't belong. If they remove a comment from a member whose viewpoint they opposed openly it looks like a case of removing the evidence. Lets say several persons AND a moderator are in opposition to another person in a discussion, and the opposition's posts suddenly disappear, the jist of the entire thread changes. No more argument, no more discussion. People reading the thread don't even know that someone was opposed. Not notifying the author, that their thread has been changed/removed, is just a lack of common courtesy. It has happened to me at least ten times. I had several posts removed from this thread alone. When I find that odd lack of continuity in a thread, I always think "I wonder what was removed and why - what don't they want me to see?"



Since you asked direct questions let me answer them...

The posts of yours that were removed (but not deleted) were done so, as I said they would be here on this public thread, because they were part of an Off Topic group of posts meant to lighten the thread for a moment to have folks step back and take a breather. 

Many folks believe I "hate" Tom for example, because of that I do not delete his words or his posts. I don't want anybody to be able to use that lame excuse why something of his is removed. If i is something seriously offensive and no oher Mod is on dute, yes I will place it off public view and wait forother Mods to come in. This does not mean only Mods which are believed to "not like" him. I realize that each of us have our own ay of seeing things and our own sense of humor. Certain folk can see and take a comment or joke in one way, others in another way. Because of that, I want other eyes to see and to comment before we take any kind of course of action on something. I am not saying that once a problem is brought up for Mod review that I don't say my piece about it, I do, but then I do about all that come before us. 

The "fluffing" was a result (or should I say IS a result) of when a Mod tries to remove only the offensive part of a post (usually name calling) and leave the rest of the post. It goes both ways, with if it's best to leave atleast some of what they wrote or remove all including the "good and informative" parts. Which from what I have gahered in here, y'all want us to remove the entire post from now on and not bring it back to view until the writer has cleaned up their own post. Correct?

ALso as said before, we need to stop the behavior which is causng the Mods to have to step in. We have one member who has a habitual problem with giving in to name calling and demeaining other members. This draws other members into the same loop. This causes more folks to leave then any one thing. This is a two part problem and *all parts *must be addressed for anything to change or improve.


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## ascott (Sep 11, 2013)

> there is a problem that really ought to be addressed,



I wonder why Josh has not chimed in and offered any address?


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## wellington (Sep 11, 2013)

yagyujubei said:


> Since the moderators frequently post/discuss as members, even argue as members, their credibility comes into question when they can simply remove threads that they feel don't belong. If they remove a comment from a member whose viewpoint they opposed openly it looks like a case of removing the evidence. Lets say several persons AND a moderator are in opposition to another person in a discussion, and the opposition's posts suddenly disappear, the jist of the entire thread changes. No more argument, no more discussion. People reading the thread don't even know that someone was opposed. Not notifying the author, that their thread has been changed/removed, is just a lack of common courtesy. It has happened to me at least ten times. I had several posts removed from this thread alone. When I find that odd lack of continuity in a thread, I always think "I wonder what was removed and why - what don't they want me to see?"



As far as I know, we do not do this. I for one do not and will not be unfair. thats not me, never has been me and never will be. We are fair mods. We do not delete/edit because we don't agree. 
Second, I think a particular thing that happened in the recent past started this whole thread. It was explained at that time why, and that it was upon a request from the original OP of that particular thread. We do not "fluff" at will. There are rules and they usually are not followed in these particular "fluff" times. To explain every little step would take up time that we don't have. We do have lives outside of this forum! Moderating sometimes feels more like babysitting or refereeing. If everyone would play like adults, we wouldn't have to spend so much time playing baby sitter or referee. Besides, most likely the op knows exactly what and why. If not, read the rules. They aren't that hard to understand nor follow. Could us moderators do better, well of course. Could the members do better, well of course. Are changes needed, most likely, some things are always an after thought. Are we going to be able to make everyone happy, never, not possible. Do we try our best, absolutely!


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## ascott (Sep 11, 2013)

> It was explained at that time why, and that it was upon a request from the original OP of that particular thread. We do not "fluff" at will.



Barb, this is absolutely a misleading comment(and I use the word misleading as to not offend)....you know that you and Jacqui BOTH made the ultimate decision to remove MY post so as not to offend (in your opinions that is and not in the best interest of myself nor the other member nor anyone else here---as you see, the other party would not have been offended at all--but in your and Jacquis "opinion" it was not appropriate-- so when the op then later said to go ahead and put their post back --you two decided to not place mine back---if you are going to toss some of the rocks into the dirt please be sure to put the entire pile there)...

And to be clear, that is not the first time it happened but the first that you were a party to in regards to me....Hey, I have nothing to hide Barb--so if you want to rehash that issue I am surely able to...

The point here remains....I was part of a thread, as everyone else who participated, I was deleted and no notification was ever sent to me---I only found out when I went back to revisit the thread...

Another time, my post was so badly fluffed/edited that the post the moderators left was nothing in line with what I said....NOTHING...and to this day whoever the moderator(s) were that did the butcher and rewrite of that post has never said who they are and why they did it?


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## Pokeymeg (Sep 11, 2013)

I think you mods do a great job of trying to keep the peace on this forum. People tend to be very nasty to each other online... but for the most part this forum has a friendly vibe. I know you guys put in a ton of time of this forum. I would never have that much time!

That being said, I think the suggestion of alerting a poster to any modifications or deletions of their posts is a great idea (just move that one post, not the whole thread, until the poster responds). I have posted a few posts that in hindsight I'm not proud of, and was fine with them being deleted. But, I didn't get notification (except for 1 time), and I wish I had. My posts just went missing. I know that creates more work for you mods, but I think that would be fair.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using TortForum mobile app


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## Jacqui (Sep 11, 2013)

ascott said:


> > It was explained at that time why, and that it was upon a request from the original OP of that particular thread. We do not "fluff" at will.
> 
> 
> 
> Barb, this is absolutely a misleading comment(and I use the word misleading as to not offend)....you know that you and Jacqui BOTH made the ultimate decision to remove



Can I perhaps clear this up... the thread was removed at the OPs request to have it deleted. We kept it until they had a change of heart and said it could go back. Yes, I was the first to say (given what we thought the frame of mind was sounding like of the OP and even if said in a way you thought was teasing, it could be taken in a worse light) it should be deleted. Now here is where you went wrong, at that point it was talked about and decided yes, to delete that one post. It was not just Barb and I making this choice, others also agreed with it. It was a team action.


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## Yvonne G (Sep 11, 2013)

The way I remember that incident: I received a PM from the OP asking me to close and remove from view his *whole thread.*

The moderators got together and talked about it. The OP seemed to be in a very fragile state of mind and a joking comment that you made was, in our minds, unseemly under the circumstances.

I talked with the OP and we decided to leave the thread, but your joking comment was removed so that other members wouldn't jump on that band wagon, as so often happens.


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## yagyujubei (Sep 11, 2013)

I, personally would like to see somewhere in ALL threads, just how many threads were removed and why. IE: right on the title page....Title of thread... posts removed or altered-7....reason...removed by... You can put it right on our CP also under Total threads removed or altered. This habit of editing might be way more than we suspect. The sneaky way it'd done isn't right. More work for the MODs? Good, maybe they'll realize just how much they're doing this. Is there a tally sheet somewhere illustrating this? Who is the biggest deleter? Are there dozens of posts altered daily?


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## wellington (Sep 11, 2013)

Exactly what Jacqui said. Which was also explained to you at the time! Yes, we (mods) did make a mistake with that and not send you a pm explaining. Sorry we are not perfect. However, when you did bring it to our attention. We did explain. The other time you are talking about, I have no knowledge of.


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## lisa127 (Sep 11, 2013)

I wanted to chime in here about the issue of some leaving the forum due to the moderators. I have belonged to quite a few forums, both reptile related and dog related (I've been active in dog rescue, etc.). I have left a few forums due to the nastiness and name calling that happens on forums. And not that it has been that long since I've joined this particular forum, but I have stayed here. So while the forum may lose some members, it also keeps some that would otherwise leave. Now, I may not be an expert in tortoise keeping. But I have been active in the reptile hobby for going on 20 years. And considering that some reptile forums I have belonged to had an average member age of about 20 I guess I could have been considered an "expert" in herpetology in general. So on those forums I would give advice when asked, but never once did I ever get nasty, rude, or resort to name calling. There is no need...I am not a teenager. Heck, I didn't act like that even when I was a teenager! There is no need.


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## Jacqui (Sep 11, 2013)

yagyujubei said:


> Are there dozens of posts altered daily?



No, there are not. Right now we seem to be in a very active hot period (which we have every so often) where members are getting hot and nasty with each other. So the average right now is maybe one or two a day. For the most part we go for weeks, even months with no need to do any deletion of posts. It all depends on how the members are doing with controling their need to explode in unproductive ways.

... this not include the spam posts/threads (folks who only come on to do a spam and leave) which get deleted each day of a about a couple it seems.


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## tortadise (Sep 11, 2013)

Jacqui said:


> yagyujubei said:
> 
> 
> > Are there dozens of posts altered daily?
> ...


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## Yvonne G (Sep 11, 2013)

Ok...Joe the Plumber writes a post, "My tortoise loves to play in the sun."

and Suzy Cream Cheeze writes in response, "You are an addlepated nincompoop. Tortoises don't play. They have no "play" genes. They just live."

Suzy might have a valid point, but because she called Joe a name, it negates her whole comment. When I read that, I would just move her whole comment to the "to be deleted" file.

And if I left Suzy's comment there for all to see, you can damned well be sure that some other jerk would come right along behind her and jump on the band wagon to make fun of Joe.

This is the sort of thing I'm talking about. If only Suzy had made her comment without making fun of Joe, it could have stayed put.

Why do you all have to act like such children, then complain when we treat you like children?


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## yagyujubei (Sep 11, 2013)

I believe that about ten posts were removed yesterday from this thread. So this was an extremely unusual occurrence then? At the time, I believe it was about 1/3 of the entire thread. Just a couple weeks ago, several of my posts were removed. I believe that it's much more widespread than it might appear or that we're being led to believe.


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## Yvonne G (Sep 11, 2013)

And another thing:

Josh has the Forum program set up to automatically change bad words. Not all bad words are in there, but for instance, if you should type "excrement" (the s word, not excrement), the program automatically changes it to "stuff." We have no control over that. It happens automatically.


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## ascott (Sep 11, 2013)

> given what we thought the frame of mind was sounding like of the OP and even if said in a way you thought was teasing, _it could be taken in a worse light_



This is the part that I have a problem with Jacqui, who are you to suddenly become a therapist,...no harsh words nor cussing nor hateful things were said whatsoever in the post of mine, none. 

Are we now in a therapy session each and every post?--- I mean someone might be having an off day and come to the Forum to get a moment of fun and tortoise info and this will not be allowed because the mod police may not think someone can "handle" a joke? Really? Your post here was suppose to somehow explain and band aid what was done as it was thought the other party could not handle it? Wow...?

I COMPLETELY understand that the other party wanted a couple of their posts removed (not the entire thread) and why (I know) that is completely their choice (as they are the author of their post) HOWEVER, the reasoning why my post was removed and kept off the thread was irrational. 

Jacqui, here is where you went wrong---no notice to the party that had their post deleted...uh, that would be me.

Barb, your cavalier posture on


> _*"and not send you a pm explaining. Sorry we are not perfect."*_



Is the exact attitude I received from you and only you when I inquired.....



> _*"However, when you did bring it to our attention. We did explain"*_



Who is "we"? I did not discuss with "we", I discussed with you...you are where I received all of my information, not any other mod.

Also, as a mod you should have some professionalism that holds true when dealing with each and every member..not attitude, not snipes at us....and if hiding of deeds was not happening..then this thread likely would never come to fruition...


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## yagyujubei (Sep 11, 2013)

Well, gosh mom. If you would just follow your own rules for OUR behavior, you would edit yourself. You call people names to justify your behavior? Are we ALL jerks and children to you?


Yvonne G said:


> Ok...Joe the Plumber writes a post, "My tortoise loves to play in the sun."
> 
> and Suzy Cream Cheeze writes in response, "You are an addlepated nincompoop. Tortoises don't play. They have no "play" genes. They just live."
> 
> ...


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## Yvonne G (Sep 11, 2013)

No, not all.


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## ascott (Sep 11, 2013)

> Ok...Joe the Plumber writes a post, "_My tortoise loves to play in the sun."_
> 
> and Suzy Cream Cheeze writes in response, _"You are an addlepated nincompoop. Tortoises don't play. They have no "play" genes. They just live."_
> 
> Suzy might have a valid point, _but because she called Joe a name, it negates her whole comment. _When I read that, I would just move her whole comment to the "to be deleted" file.



And in here lyes a problem...suppose Joe did not know this at all...that there is some validity to what Suzy said---instead of a mod offering a pm to Suzy letting her know her point is valid but served up in unacceptable way her point and information gets tossed as not valid...this is a big disservice to the forum...and this is what is part of what is being expressed here....if fluffed/edited/deleted without warrant then so much is lost in that action....

I would also like to point out Yvonne, you have used some potentially offensive descriptive name calling in your post--some may be offended by that....


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## Jacqui (Sep 11, 2013)

yagyujubei said:


> I believe that about ten posts were removed yesterday from this thread. So this was an extremely unusual occurrence then? At the time, I believe it was about 1/3 of the entire thread. Just a couple weeks ago, several of my posts were removed. I believe that it's much more widespread than it might appear or that we're being led to believe.



I removed 8 posts actually. Four of which were mine and a couple of those four said these off topic posts would be deleted from this string of posts. As a member, I do have the right to delete my own posts or request them to be deleted once my time to do it myself has passed. So yes four posts were removed by somebody other then their writers (ie by a Mod who was me and becase they were off topic).

Now if you want your two posts put back, I can do that. However without the other posts (mine) they seem to lose meaning.

Also before your first post this was written in my second post...

"our conversation will be soon deleted as off topic."


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## wellington (Sep 11, 2013)

Again you are wrong. The WHOLE thread was asked to be removed, no, deleted. Yvonne already explained that, yet again. Then post were asked to be removed/deleted for a reason I will not say here, but a reason from the op. I also will not say why we kept yours out. As a "friend" it should have been obvious that your comment was not appropriate at that time. Maybe any other time, but not then. Jacqui was not playing therapist, she was being a concerned friend, as all us mods were! I have tried to explain this over and over to you. You have an agenda stuck in your head about it and just refuse to try and understand how we perceived a few post before yours. I don't know how to get you to understand, it was all out of GREAT CONCERN. Also, for my apologizing for not being perfect. It is not meant in any other way, then to say "SORRY". I am not PERFECT, mistakes happen! No snide remark intended. 
As for more work for us mods. We will take it on without complaining. Too bad a lot of you can't do the same. 
As for the posts that were removed. I didn't remove them. However, i just went and read them. It was your comment Dennis, that I am sure whoever removed them, felt they should. You didn't like the way their posts were trying to lighten things. So, they accommodated you!



ascott said:


> > given what we thought the frame of mind was sounding like of the OP and even if said in a way you thought was teasing, _it could be taken in a worse light_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## lisa127 (Sep 11, 2013)

ascott said:


> > Ok...Joe the Plumber writes a post, "_My tortoise loves to play in the sun."_
> >
> > and Suzy Cream Cheeze writes in response, _"You are an addlepated nincompoop. Tortoises don't play. They have no "play" genes. They just live."_
> >
> ...



I don't understand why there should be a need to send a pm to an adult person telling them to say to someone "you are a this or that" is inappropriate. As an adult a person should already know that.


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## wellington (Sep 11, 2013)

lisa127 said:


> ascott said:
> 
> 
> > > Ok...Joe the Plumber writes a post, "_My tortoise loves to play in the sun."_
> ...



Yes Lisa, you would think so. Most of us are taught as kinds, that name calling is not excepted. Unfortunately, that's just not so Glad you get it


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## Yvonne G (Sep 11, 2013)

ascott said:


> > Ok...Joe the Plumber writes a post, "_My tortoise loves to play in the sun."_
> >
> > and Suzy Cream Cheeze writes in response, _"You are an addlepated nincompoop. Tortoises don't play. They have no "play" genes. They just live."_
> >
> ...


 

This is a direct quote from the "guidelines":

1. Do not post anything blatantly rude and/or insulting.

don't you think calling poor Joe an addlepated nincompoop is rude and insulting? Per the guidelines, I am perfectly within my rights to delete that. Then Suzy has the option to contact a mod or Josh and ask why her post never show up or was deleted, and we can explain it to her. But I have a sneaking suspicion that she knows what she did wrong.


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## ascott (Sep 11, 2013)

Now what I see going on here is shameful ....I believe Barbara you and I have visited this word before.

I started a post expressing my tiredness of grown folks going in and altering someones post and leaving it raped of its initial intent and leaving behind some fluffed garbage....along with the person that did the act never sending a courteous pm to the party who did the initial post..

Two of the moderators here (Barbara and Jacqui--see, I am a big girl and can be upfront) have proceeded to make this about personal feelings vs keeping on target. This is what I fear also happens when a post is fluffed or deleted.

I will no longer speak of other forum members here by OP or other party in a sheepish way to avoid being direct....that is actually not my style.

I do not have to mention others in my thread intent---as appears folks here need to turn this into something it was not intended to be.

Barbara, I have no need for you to continue to repeat the bogus information you are reporting here as you attempted to feed me before....does nothing for me.

The attempts to use statements like ; 



> As an adult a person should already know that.



Really, should also an adult should not have a problem owning what they did and why and offering up so all is on the table? 



> Yes Lisa, you would think so. Most of us are taught as kinds, that name calling is not excepted. Unfortunately, that's just not soSad Glad you get it



Yet another example of your delightful attitude....lovely.

See, I can do the same thing--however, this is not what my intent was.

So, I am bringing it back around to what my original intent was when I started this thread....

If you must fluff---please just delete---please let the party being fluffed or deleted be aware so there is no question of what happened....and I sure would hope that mods know that they are not PERFECT and therefore should not assume that they know best.


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## Laura (Sep 11, 2013)

BIG BROTHER>.. Love that show!
I am one of the Originals.. I don't come here as often.. but its mainly due to the repeat questions, concerns, etc etc... I wish there was an easier way to get people to READ before posting.. 
I am more on the Tortoise Home facebook page now.. but I tell people to come here all the time..


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## Kapidolo Farms (Sep 11, 2013)

The fix is pretty simple.

1) change one word to another, like "Blah blah" to "(*&$% _mod_) just like they do in those old fashioned things called newspapers.

This is even used in the Sunday funnies for *Beetle Bailey*'s Sarge and *Blondie* whose husband, Dagwood, often gets the wrath of of his boss Mr. Dithers.

In more erudite magazines like *Smithsonian*, when people write to the editor, those letter are sometimes, not always, edited. That is acknowledged by the editor or editors as _ed_ or _eds_, which Tee Hee has nothing to do with erectile disfunction.

2) return the offending post to the OP or thread contributor and say "please alter the tone of this content"

These two very simple things would lend great credibility to the TFO.

The "introductions" thread is overwhelmed by newbies, you just gotta wonder why? Some are new to chelonains, some are very experienced but just new to TFO. Why is this????

My answer to that question is easy . . .

TFO comes up in Google searches very near the top of most general interest key words a newbie might use to learn something, or the experienced person found a good alternate point of view on a topic they searched for or was prompted by another past newbie. So the two for one answer is, lets all say it together. . .

TO LEARN

Is that learning going to come from another "newbie" at least in the sense of chelonian husbandry, science, or culture? My guess would be not so much.

The great contribution by newbies that are new to chelonians are the questions that make the experienced person think. Thank you for that. 

Despite some Mod's indicating in the past that there are no 'experts' on TFO, frankly my opinion is the opposite, and that TFO via the internet is probably the biggest collection of experts ever assembled.

THAT ALONE IS WHY *TFO* persists and grows via content contribution by the experts answering those newbie questions and debating among themselves.

TFO is bigger collection of experts than the formation meeting of what is now the TSA (which I attended) and bigger than any chelonian specific seminar or conference that I have attended, and that is dozens. The TFO is a global clearing house for chelonian husbandry information. TFO has ruined the sale of dozens of "how to books" by the freely offered expert advice and knowledge so readily given here. The debates keep it current less we would be putting sulcatas in ten gallon aquariums on rabbit pellets in a cold room and feeding them iceburg lettuce. 

If you edit and censor invisibly behind the keyboard, frankly you are (*@#'ing ) [word cleaned up by moderator ) that up royally, and then all TFO is left with are the threads about all those other topics and posts not related to chelonian husbandry, science and culture. There is an even bigger internet portal for that kind of content, it's called FaceBook. Josh, don't just wish you had that on tap??

There is no 'publish or perish' driver here, there are no printing, circulation, or color image costs here. The peer review is the other posters. Some of the info shared here is so near feces, I'm worried my computer will need a vet visit, but that too is how informative information is created and resolved. Those feces become fertilizer for good information growth.

A few posters pretty much only contribute images with little actual content, as an ongoing every post sales banner, "oh cute" without even paying Josh a cent. Hmm, that may be the other reason people come here to window shop, wish I had one of those, and those, and those, and those . . . and then they do click the paid ad or banner.

I find this as "all good" until ascott woke me from the lie of undisclosed editing and censorship, and that is soooooo easy to fix, just be transparent in your activities, JOSH and the MODS.

1) Turn away whole posts back to the poster for edit, you don't have to work your poor tired heads over the edit yourself after that drive in the rain to use the library computer, I agree you should not have to do that. Just read the new version and see if it fits the _feel_ that is wanted here for information or language.

OR 

2) change that one or two words followed by (one or two words _mods_) right in that darn offending post - gee whilickers already.

Garsh Mickey, that sure looks like alot of werk to mee. Why don't we just whitewarsh the hole town, and let the rain keep it kleen. Even Disney made fun of low wattage light bulbs and was sarcastic. His widow told me so.

White wash, yellow content, or opaque modification by the moderators, that is what we are talking about here.

So, all you younger audience of TFO, try a google search on _yellow journalism_, _state propaganda_, or some of those much more despicable things like _plagiarism_. Then when you have unattended access to your computer, you know, no parental supervision, you can see what all the fuss is about.

Will


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## Yvonne G (Sep 11, 2013)

As to your fluff over delete comment, please remember that the Forum's program has an auto correct feature that doesn't allow certain words to be posted, and it automatically changes the word. The mods have no control over that. Not saying we don't or haven't changed words, just saying its not always us.


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## Kapidolo Farms (Sep 11, 2013)

Yvonne G said:


> As to your fluff over delete comment, please remember that the Forum's program has an auto correct feature that doesn't allow certain words to be posted, and it automatically changes the word. The mods have no control over that. Not saying we don't or haven't changed words, just saying its not always us.



Then change the darn software to add _CompMod_ with those changed or deleted words. I would guess that is where Josh would earn his nickel.

Will


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## ascott (Sep 11, 2013)

Yvonne, entire sentences have been deleted and left behind selected sentences that then removes the entire meaning of the post to begin with--this is what I find horrid and not right---then no notice sent on top of it?

...I understand what you mean---I did not use curse words--this I understand auto changes


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## Yvonne G (Sep 11, 2013)

Ok, folks. We've heard you and we are acting on it.

Jacqui is going to make up a form letter advising a member that his recent post is offensive (or whatever). All the mods will have input on the letter's content.

We will make the offensive post invisible to the general membership, but it will stay right where it is in the thread. 

We will send the form letter along with a copy/paste of the offensive post and ask the member to clean it up. They will have one chance to make it right or it will be permanently deleted.

We haven't nailed it down yet, but I'm thinking maybe we'll make *bold* what we have found to be against the guidelines.

Once we get the corrected post back, we'll edit the original post and make it visible again.


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## Neal (Sep 11, 2013)

Will said:


> 2) return the offending post to the OP or thread contributor and say "please alter the tone of this content"
> 
> These two very simple things would lend great credibility to the TFO.



This is brilliant. 

I too have been "put off" by how the forum is managed. I don't consider my problems with this forum as an issue with the moderators on a personal level, I think it's more of the forum culture that the moderators are trying to encourage. As an example - from Yvonne's first post, I get the feeling that things are edited to cater to a younger demographic. Which isn't a bad thing, but it loses the interest of someone like me who would appreciate more grown up conversations without someone hovering over my every word. So I choose to spend the bulk of my time elsewhere that agrees more with what I want. "It's not you, it's me". 

Sure we can get into heated conversations, but personally, I have learned the most from these types of discussions. I don't feel that I can participate on this forum with as much passion as I really have because...well...the bulk of what has been brought up in this thread is why. I understand that the reality of what happens is a lot more complex than what I see, but I'm not in a position to see the whole picture so I think something like Will's suggestion above would go a long way towards improvement on the issues discussed here.


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## Tim/Robin (Sep 11, 2013)

Tom said:


> His assessment of the situation, coupled with Jacqui's assessment of the situation illustrates the enormous disconnect between the members and what happens "behind closed doors" with the mods. I have met Tim in person. He is not some unreasonable hot head whacko. He is very rational, reasonable and well spoken. He is also a very polite and just "normal" person. If he is feeling this way, and many others obviously also feel this way, perhaps we should take it as an indication that there is a problem that needs addressing.
> 
> Whatever it is that is happening here, whoever's perception we choose to favor, the fact is that members of Tim's caliber are being driven away. Members like me, yagyujubei and Angela, are not happy with what goes on. That is a sad sad thing for a tortoise forum. Many of our more experienced members just choose not to contribute. I have had the same thing happen as yagyujubei, and I share the same perception of the situation.
> 
> Maybe this is just an unavoidable side effect of human nature, and things that happen when a large group of people is assembled, but maybe with some thought and effort we can improve the situation and get people like Tim to want to stick around and contribute their vast knowledge to our forum.



Thanks Tom!!! I have been made out to look like a complete moron or at very least a hostile individual. It is nice to hear from someone that has met me, that this could not be farther from the truth. 

The only way any change will come about is IF it hits Josh in the pocket book. I guarantee if everyone were to boycott the forum for 6 months and the traffic stats changed drastically, he would take a serious look at the current moderation!!


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## ShellyTurtlesCats (Sep 11, 2013)

Ah, good old "Gang mentality".


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## sibi (Sep 11, 2013)

Yvonne, I was with you all the way until your last sentence. See, that comment of ...then complain when we treat you like children...is derogatory. Most of us here are NOT children, and despite disagreements and spewing insults, which all grown-ups are capable of, it's very much a part of adult life. No one has a right to treat another as a child. It's insulting to the adult, regardless of any childish behaviors, and no one likes it! When mods add their opinions, they must be very objective, otherwise their opinions not only adds fuel to the fire, but then they become guilty of doing the same thing they're trying to halt. It doesn't help ease tensions, but adds to the problem. Yes, mods are humans who sometimes make mistakes and who may lash out like a child too, but you wouldn't like it if someone treated you as a child, right? I'd like to say I think the world of you mods. Just watch what you say, or you may have another battle on your hand.




Yvonne G said:


> Ok...Joe the Plumber writes a post, "My tortoise loves to play in the sun."
> 
> and Suzy Cream Cheeze writes in response, "You are an addlepated nincompoop. Tortoises don't play. They have no "play" genes. They just live."
> 
> ...


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## laney (Sep 11, 2013)

Oh gee, I feel like I've missed something here! I haven't been a member for years so maybe I have missed a lot of what people are getting so fuelled up about.
I think thinks are running ok but to be honest when I see things starting to get off topic or personal I just stop reading the thread, which is a shame but in all honesty I'm here to drain the information out of all your heads mwahaha (in an evil laugh btw)  I almost stopped reading this thread as it was getting a wee bit tense lol but I cheated to be honest and skipped a few pages! (Oops truthful keyboard grr)
I assume that without the work of the moderators I would have probably left by now because things would just keep going off topic and personal.
What I will say for sure is that I don't know any of you but I sure do appreciate every one of ya, whether you have helped in one of my posts or just posted some pics on your torts.

Sharing the love fae a hippie in a kilt LOL  xx


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## ShellyTurtlesCats (Sep 11, 2013)

I haven't been here long, but I enjoy it all... even the "childish" stuff.


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## mike taylor (Sep 11, 2013)

*Re: RE: Anyone else here tired of being deleted or fluffed?*



IBeenEasy said:


> love the forum, but i do agree there are some 'know it alls" here...an most of the time..the rude coments are being said to a newbie whos just excited and has alot of questions and might have been guided in the wrong direction...those people come here for friendly advice..not to be mocked or made in fun of...which alot of the "regulars" , older members and some mods doo..quite alot.... why cant we all just be a big happy turtle family!!! new turtle lovers, old tortoise owners, we can be the TURTLE GANG!!! LOL



Thats what I'm screaming !!!! Turtle Gang . But I have been a victim of fluff myself . I got called a racist so I called him a jackass is that wrong I think not but i was fluffed .
It hurts to be fluffed I can still fill the pain . I'm just kidding people get over it nobody is got to get along with everyone so if it takes being fluffed or made fun of to help my animals then make fun of me . Then you will be leaving someone else alone . 
Sent from my C771 using TortForum mobile app


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## hunterk997 (Sep 11, 2013)

Yvonne G said:


> Ok, folks. We've heard you and we are acting on it.
> 
> Jacqui is going to make up a form letter advising a member that his recent post is offensive (or whatever). All the mods will have input on the letter's content.
> 
> ...



I have read all of the replies, and this seems like a good way to get rid of the issue people are talking about. I like the "bold" idea too, I just think it's nifty.


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## jaizei (Sep 11, 2013)

Tom said:


> This perceived favoritism, even if it is a misunderstanding, has caused many a new person, and some long term members too, to leave this forum. What I don't like, and what I think Dean is referencing, is that it seems like some moderators don't like some of the members. This is totally natural, normal and acceptable to me, as we are all human. If one of the mods who I respect and has shown me courtesy and respect in the past (Yvonne, for just one example) feels the need to tone down one of my more passionate posts, I have no problem with that. I would like to be made aware of it, but I understand it and have told her so in the distant past. But when my work is edited or deleted anonymously, and it does not seem justified according to the forum rules, I cannot help feeling some animosity toward this perceived injustice. Knowing that at least two mods clearly do not like me and have demonstrated marked discord toward me in the past, makes it even worse.



_â€œI don't dislike you, I nothing you.â€_

I have a poor opinion of your behavior. Change it and my opinion would change. Attacking anyone with a different opinion and name calling will not.

This 'perceived favoritism' has had one benefactor over all else: YOU. The posts I have deleted were egregious and unmistakably against the rules. You think your posts being deleted hurts you? It helps you. You should be sending Josh a check every month for PR. If every post you have ever made to this forum were to become available for all to see, I think you would have some explaining to do. 

Every post I have made, every PM I have sent, every action I have performed as a moderator. All aboveboard. If it were possible to collate this information and make it available for all to see, I would do so instantly. It will show the countless cheap shots certain members have taken where I didn't respond, look no further than this thread for an example. There will be no profanity filled PMs directed at anyone.


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## BeeBee*BeeLeaves (Sep 11, 2013)

Well, I am just grateful that I have 30 minutes to edit my posts. In non forum life, I don't get 30 minutes and I have no filter between brain and mouth and it can be a wee bit of a problem every now and then. I enjoy this forum and have not been fluffed or deleted yet, so I have not experienced that. What I love about this forum is that over all there is a lot of sharing and caring ... and its for better lives for tortoises and turtles which everyone on the forum has in common. We sure do love our tortoises. We are all sick. We need help. LOL!


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## Sh3wulf (Sep 11, 2013)

ChaseNTx said:


> I'm a newbie to the forum so I have posted very few items, but as a new follower I am already growing very tired of the back biting, unnecessary sarcasm and just plain rudeness of some posts. I come to this forum to learn and seek experienced tortoise people's opinions, not read a bunch of attacks on others opinions or knowledge. I appreciate each and every piece of feedback am I given and generally enjoy reading the posts and learning from the experiences of other and and just wish others could play nice or take their toys else where to play.



Nicely said


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## ALDABRAMAN (Sep 11, 2013)

ascott said:


> *You Yvonne, are a perfect example of what I refer to as a fair and impartial moderator....*



** Fair and impartial for sure!*



Jacqui said:


> *Plus never forget this is Josh's forum. *



** Vital fact!*



Tim/Robin said:


> *The only way any change will come about is IF it hits Josh in the pocket book. I guarantee if everyone were to boycott the forum for 6 months and the traffic stats changed drastically, he would take a serious look at the current moderation!!*



** Imagine that!*


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## Madkins007 (Sep 11, 2013)

Long time member, mostly-retired moderator (and this post may be the nail in my coffin, finally!)

I have a solution to this whole thing. Pay the mods. 

If you want some sort of professional level activity from the mods- unbiased replies, quick responses, some sort of feedback loop, etc.- then pay them and give them job titles and standards. Some of these guys put in a ton of time to do what they do- and no, most of it has little to do with policing every little word that falls from your mouths. They combat spam, approve posts, try to clean up duplicates, try to help with getting things in the right slots for good answers. They spend an ungodly amount of time trying to keep people who have been asked to leave for whatever reason from rejoining under other names.

You guys have spoken of a democracy, censorship, etc.- as if this is some sort of free and open space- and it is not. This is, as you have pointed out when it works in your favor- Josh's sandbox, and HE has entrusted the mods to help keep it free from cat poop and used syringes. Do the mods get 'overzealous' sometimes? Sure. Are the posters sometimes complete *(*&^%-*&*(#%@%'s that need to be slapped upside the head? Sure.

Vote for the mods? Why on Earth would Josh do that? Do you vote among the open populace about the rules of your house or who does what chores? Now- if this was a SUBSCRIPTION site, with paid mods, then it might make sense to have at least some of the seats selected by an open vote- but in reality, it would make even more sense for it to be handled by people who submit resumes and are interviewed and hired for skills. Quite frankly, I don't know hardly any of you enough to vote for you for something like this.



Oh! As an alternative to paying the mods... how about if we fine people that we need to moderate because they violated a posted rule or policy? Used a bad word or called someone names? Say $5 for the first incident (after a fair warning), and it rises by $5 each time after, and you are banned until you pay up? If you feel you've been charged unfairly, Josh acts as ref and doubles the fine if you loose.

The more I think about it, the more I like that idea! Hey Josh!


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## mainey34 (Sep 11, 2013)

Posts are edited no matter if you are cussing someone out or making a joke, or simply making a comment that mods, or a mod doesn't like. Or a mod. That doesnt care for you you. This crap of deleting, "fluffing" without permission is inexcusable. Ive had posts that had things deleted that made me sound like a complete idiot...Thanks Moderators! How would that make you feel? If you even cared....


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## ascott (Sep 11, 2013)

Ok, folks. We've heard you and we are acting on it.



> Jacqui is going to make up a form letter advising a member that his recent post is offensive (or whatever). All the mods will have input on the letter's content.
> 
> We will make the offensive post invisible to the general membership, but it will stay right where it is in the thread.
> 
> ...



Yvonne, when will this be available/complete/implemented? I mean, in the interim what will be the temporary fix?


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## sibi (Sep 11, 2013)

Personally, I wouldn't mind paying the mods and josh annual dues to be a member. I learn from others here, and certainly admire and respect the dedication and hard work of the moderators. And, I wouldn't expect any more of them than what they are currently doing. Would I like to see the forum be more transparent, sure. It would certainly quite those of us who never knew editing was being conducted w/o the writer's knowledge. For my part, I really couldn't care less if words were edited so long as I was informed, and I believe that is what the team is currently trying to resolve. 

The bashing I see going on here with the mods and josh is completely uncalled for! There's nothing that they had done that warrants hashing the past, calling out mods as liars, or feeling personally offended for actions that were necessary, albeit imperfect. If remedied, I think everyone should bury the hatchet and let bygones be bygones.


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## mainey34 (Sep 11, 2013)

I understand that everyone has been heard, i for 1 wanted to give my input. My right as a member...


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## Madkins007 (Sep 11, 2013)

mainey34 said:


> Posts are edited no matter if you are cussing someone out or making a joke, or simply making a comment that mods, or a mod doesn't like. Or a mod. That doesnt care for you you. This crap of deleting, "fluffing" without permission is inexcusable. Ive had posts that had things deleted that made me sound like a complete idiot...Thanks Moderators! How would that make you feel? If you even cared....



I have only edited a couple posts that were not mine in my entire history, and I have never had a post edited or fluffed. Because I am a moderator? Heck no- the other mods probably forget I am part of the team because I am here so rarely in the last year. But, even when I am mad at someone or violently disagree with them, I can express it without violating rules or common courtesy. And I HAVE "cuss[ed] someone out or ma[de] a joke, or simply making a comment that mods, or a mod doesn't like." And I still did not get edited. 

How would it make me feel if I WAS fluffed? I would feel embarrassed that I acted in such a way on a visible forum that someone felt the need to correct me because I did such a poor job of editing myself.

And, if I may be so blunt... WHAT SORT OF JERKHAT ARE YOU to ask if the mods care? THAT IS OBVIOUSLY COMPLETE AND TOTAL *#$^! If they didn't care, they would not work so hard. If they did not care, they would just ban jerks, idiots, and bozos rather than trying to work with people. 

Your final comment is a PERFECT EXAMPLE of the sort of garbage the mods have to deal with- it was meant to be inflammatory or manipulative without being at all helpful or having any truth behind it.


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## mainey34 (Sep 11, 2013)

Madkins007 said:


> mainey34 said:
> 
> 
> > Posts are edited no matter if you are cussing someone out or making a joke, or simply making a comment that mods, or a mod doesn't like. Or a mod. That doesnt care for you you. This crap of deleting, "fluffing" without permission is inexcusable. Ive had posts that had things deleted that made me sound like a complete idiot...Thanks Moderators! How would that make you feel? If you even cared....
> ...


And of course you just twisted that around to make you and mods look good...you should "fluff" your post...You carry the title mod. Why are you not doing your job?


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## cemmons12 (Sep 11, 2013)

I would just like to say, once things are fixed, I hope we can go back to being the great forum we once were. Even though I am not an old timer, I seem to remember some really good times, conversations, and learning on this forum. And not just from a couple people, but from many, many members. This has been an eye opener, for one, but it has also been pretty upsetting to me. I would just like for us all to be friends, and I know in the real world that's not possible. But maybe after all this, we can just get along and learn from each other again. And I hope I have not offended anyone with this post.

Sent from my DROID2 GLOBAL using TortForum mobile app


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## Pokeymeg (Sep 12, 2013)

I am just not seeing the big deal here... This is a private forum, not a public office. Mods don't need to be voted in, and Josh can set whatever rules he wants. It's his forum. 

The mods all seem like sensible people who have their own lives, they are not going to waste time 'fluffing' or deleting posts just for kicks and giggles. They have better things to do, I'm sure! There is usually a good reason. Without the mods doing what they do, this forum would be a rather nasty place.

I value this forum a lot, and I doubt my tortoise would be alive without the information I get from folks on here. The #1 priority of this forum is to provide tortoise related information, and I think that is being lost in the argument.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using TortForum mobile app


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## jaizei (Sep 12, 2013)

Pokeymeg said:


> I am just not seeing the big deal here... This is a private forum, not a public office. Mods don't need to be voted in, and Josh can set whatever rules he wants. It's his forum.
> 
> The mods all seem like sensible people who have their own lives, they are notgoing to waste time 'fluffing' or deleting posts just for kicks and giggles. They have better things to do, I'm sure! There is usually a good reason. Without the mods doing what they do, this forum would be a rather nasty place.
> 
> ...



Too often discontent is swept under the rug. It is better when it is discussed openly (as long as it is civil). Angela (and a few others) have legitimate concerns. Posts should not be edited or deleted if they do not break the rules, rules that should be applied equally to every member. Angela can have a sharp tongue, but her comment that was edited wasnt any different than others she has made. (Not intended as an insult Angela). This inconsistent moderation makes it hard for members to know what is right and wrong. There is favoritism on this forum, a relic from the past. And when those members that are accustomed to privilege are treated like regular members, they somehow see it as them being wronged. 



Who watches the watchmen? I would have no problem with 100% transparency. Every moderation action I have performed has been aboveboard, despite insinuations and accusations to the contrary. If every post I have made, every pm sent was laid out on the table, I would have nothing to be ashamed of. I do not resort to name calling or sending profanity filled pms at the drop of a hat. The members that seem to have a problem with me cannot say the same. If the posts that were deleted were presented to the open forum, there would be little question about the ones I remove.


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## jaizei (Sep 12, 2013)

Pokeymeg said:


> I am just not seeing the big deal here... This is a private forum, not a public office. Mods don't need to be voted in, and Josh can set whatever rules he wants. It's his forum.
> 
> The mods all seem like sensible people who have their own lives, they are not going to waste time 'fluffing' or deleting posts just for kicks and giggles. They have better things to do, I'm sure! There is usually a good reason. Without the mods doing what they do, this forum would be a rather nasty place.
> 
> ...




Too often discontent is swept under the rug. It is better when it is discussed openly (as long as it is civil, I believe no topic should be off limits). Angela (and a few others) have legitimate concerns. Posts should not be edited or deleted if they do not break the rules, rules that should be applied equally to every member. Angela can have a sharp tongue, but her comment that was edited wasnt any different than others she has made. (Not intended as an insult Angela). This inconsistent moderation makes it hard for members to know what is allowed or not.


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## Pokeymeg (Sep 12, 2013)

*Re: RE: Anyone else here tired of being deleted or fluffed?*



jaizei said:


> Pokeymeg said:
> 
> 
> > I am just not seeing the big deal here... This is a private forum, not a public office. Mods don't need to be voted in, and Josh can set whatever rules he wants. It's his forum.
> ...



I see... It's hard to follow 11 pages of this. I was assuming this was about legitamite inappropriate language etc. I'll just back away slowly now!.....

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using TortForum mobile app


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## jaizei (Sep 12, 2013)

It is like several different threads at once. Some of the concerns are valid. Some are not. Refer back to the insinuations and accusations that I delete posts simply because I do not like someone. If the posts that were removed by me were shown to the forum, there would be no question of why they were deleted. I try to keep everything I do aboveboard. I do not resort to name calling and sending profanity filled pms at the drop of a hat.


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## diamondbp (Sep 12, 2013)

I think at this point this thread is potentially hurting the forum and needs to cease. I'm sure the people that it really affects(the mods) and veteran members have said enough of their mind by now and need to handle any further conversations in PM or personal email/phone/etc.

I've been using the forum for about a year now and really enjoy checking it everyday and helping out where I can.

But I can honestly say I'm growing tired of seeing this thread continue. Any newcomer that comes across this thread may get turned off rather than getting excited about some of the members here. 

So with that being said, I'm grateful for this forum and the dedication of MANY of its members and I hope it continues to grow and help shed light on turtle/tortoise care for the masses. God bless


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## luvpetz27 (Sep 12, 2013)

diamondbp said:


> I think at this point this thread is potentially hurting the forum and needs to cease. I'm sure the people that it really affects(the mods) and veteran members have said enough of their mind by now and need to handle any further conversations in PM or personal email/phone/etc.
> 
> I've been using the forum for about a year now and really enjoy checking it everyday and helping out where I can.
> 
> ...



I agree with everything you said!!!!


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## BeeBee*BeeLeaves (Sep 12, 2013)

I love this forum. Thank you all for your opinions and thoughts and rants and raves and to the moderators who try to do their best. Little bumps on the road are always okay. 
Like a tortoise ... moving on ... next ....


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## theelectraco (Sep 12, 2013)

This is the only forum I belong to that "fluffs and removes" material. In my opinion, you accept all risks of posting on the forum when you chose to do so. This is the Internet. People should be prepared for arguing, hostile debates. The censorship or removal of things should only be removed, in my opinion, when the OP, or person "offended" requests, not when the mod deems fit. There is also a lot of "fluffing" due to the fact that there are minors on this site, and some people need to be filtered to make the site more appropriate for them. I think it would be wise to create a 18+ rule. Then we are all adults here, and don't have to tip toe around offending naive underaged posters. If members chose to lie about their age upon membership agreement then they accept the risks involved in posting in a public place. 

Also, I know Josh's presence is absent on the forum most of the time. I don't know if there is already a "lead mod" or such, but if there isn't I think it would be a good thing to implement. Someome like Yvonne would be great at this. She could make a quick decision whether or not the material needs edited or deleted, do so and move on. She has been extremely fair to all members, has an excellent way with words helping people understand things, can edit information without completely changing it. I don't think it requires multiple people to determine if it needs fluffed, but also don't feel that it should fall into just any mods choice whether or not content is edited. 

I'm done rambling.


0.1.0 Dachshund
0.0.1 Redfoot
1.0.0 Greek


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## lisa127 (Sep 12, 2013)

This is the internet, people should be prepared for rudeness and arguing?? 

That's like saying, this is life and you should be prepared to be treated rudely and unkindly. It may be true (life is like that) but it doesn't excuse the people that are rude and argumentative and not nice. 

Oh yes, I know. Freedom of speech. I forgot. In this country that is always our excuse for being not nice, for saying inappropriate things, and for not considering others (including children). Because our freedom of speech always comes before the welfare of children or the feeling of others.

I agree....this thread has gone on long enough.


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## theelectraco (Sep 12, 2013)

Yes they should be prepared for hostile debates and arguments. This. Is. The. Internet. I don't know what candy land some people are living in when they are surprised or offended by what anyone says on the Internet. Half the time, the people being offended a) are actually wrong and b) aren't even being insulted, the Internet just doesn't show attitude or tone. I have had to write a post 2x as long as necessary just to get the same tho across, so that people don't get offended because they don't know how it's being stated. 

And I'm sure this will get read in a way of which I didn't write it, but I don't feel like typing 2x as much to get my point across without "offending"others or being rude.


0.1.0 Dachshund
0.0.1 Redfoot
1.0.0 Greek


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## Jacqui (Sep 12, 2013)

ascott said:


> Yvonne, when will this be available/complete/implemented? I mean, in the interim what will be the temporary fix?



I am not Yvonne, but I can tell you that yesterday I did take the example Charlie sent me, reworked it for use in this forum, the other Mods (four I believe) did look at it and comment. At this point three Mods are in full favor of trying it and one is more reluctant. However, as I have stated before this is Josh's forum and as such all such changes must go through him. At this point, he is doing some thinking and seeing how he wants to handle things. So as of now, that is where things are sitting.


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## ascott (Sep 12, 2013)

> At this point three Mods are in full favor of trying it and one is more reluctant



Are there only 4 complete and entire mods for this entire Forum?



> So as of now, that is where things are sitting.



Thank you Jacqui...


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## txturtle13 (Sep 12, 2013)

diamondbp said:


> I think at this point this thread is potentially hurting the forum and needs to cease. I'm sure the people that it really affects(the mods) and veteran members have said enough of their mind by now and need to handle any further conversations in PM or personal email/phone/etc.
> 
> I've been using the forum for about a year now and really enjoy checking it everyday and helping out where I can.
> 
> ...



Well said! This is not pleasant to read. I get that not everything is rainbows and butterflies all the time... But are we seriously having such a lengthy discussion about the difficulty of being polite to each other?? I understand there's more to it, but we are here to talk about the animals after all.


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## ascott (Sep 12, 2013)

> about the difficulty of being polite to each other?



This is about so much more than politeness....and absolutely some will not want to view this thread and others will....simple really, don't visit the thread or do visit the thread.....choice.


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## Tom (Sep 12, 2013)

txturtle13 said:


> But are we seriously having such a lengthy discussion about the difficulty of being polite to each other??



No Sir/Ma'am. (Sorry. Your username doesn't give away your gender) We are having a discussion about what is perceived as unfair and anonymous censorship, with no recourse or accountability.

In the end, I think the forum will be a better place for having had the discussion, and that should be everyone's goal!


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## Arnold_rules (Sep 12, 2013)

txturtle13 said:


> Well said! This is not pleasant to read. I get that not everything is rainbows and butterflies all the time... But are we seriously having such a lengthy discussion about the difficulty of being polite to each other?? I understand there's more to it, but we are here to talk about the animals after all.



I guess not everyone's parents taught the lesson "If you cannot say something nice, don't say anything at all". Again, I understand not everything is rainbows and butterflies, but there are some basic rules of human communication and being civil is one of them. Generally, most people, excluding the Internet Trolls, will take someone more seriously if they communicate using civil tone than if someone comes out swinging and looking for a knock down drag out fight. Not to elevate myself from being guilty of entering and or starting a "Jane, you ignorant -Fluffed Word-" (for you older SNL fans ) debate, but I try to recognize when I have lowered my conversation to that level and am person enough (political correctness inserted here) to apologize for my actions.

And how do we truly know it was the mods doing the editting and not the NSA????????? Oh no, the black van is outside my door.....Ah......Oh wait, that is just the cable guys.

Now, let's get back to the discussions about the real animals, such as our torts, rather than the perceived animals lurking in the corners waiting to start a heated debate.


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## TommyZ (Sep 12, 2013)

Just an observation....ya know, peeps talk of the issues within the forum, but do you all see that right here on this very thread, youre all doing just what this forum is for....having an open, logical debate, in a civil format, exchanging ideas and negotiating a change with quantifiable results....

Im a newbie here, and to tortin. Within my short 6 months here, ive met countless awesome people. Theres at least a dozen strangers here, whom i have emailed countless times, that have obliged me, and answered all my redundant questions. IMO, based on past experiences and from what ive seen here, TFO is a great forum, but nothing is ever perfect. 

Mods, are just people too. People by our inate human-ness, are judgemental, biased, opinionated. I think perhaps were being a tad hard on them and shouldnt assume theyre all "evil". Having said that, i have seen a few instances of rudeness etc, but ive never found myself offended. Ive even had a mod correct a post for me once where i blatantly made myself loom a fool,(which is easy for me, lol)

All in all, i think both side here have vaild points...somethings can indeed be better, but i also think they arent all as bas as some are lead to believe. 

Lastly, i dont even know this man Josh. I get it, he started this forum, but ive seen many people say "its joshs show", that i dont find accurate. CEO, or what ever he may be, hed have no forum if not for his members, so that needs to be recognized. Having said that, people still must realize this is still a private domain, and at times not all things wi be 100% fair at all times. Unless someone wants to charter a TFO constitution, i think we all need to be understanding of the processes here, and be patient and trying to change things. 

Sent from my SCH-I535 using TortForum mobile app


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## Jacqui (Sep 12, 2013)

ascott said:


> Are there only 4 complete and entire mods for this entire Forum?



The current Mods are: Yvonne, Barb, Cameron, Mark, Kelly, and myself. David is still out on medical leave, but does come in every so often for a short while. Kristina I am not sure of.


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## jaizei (Sep 12, 2013)

Jacqui said:


> ascott said:
> 
> 
> > Are there only 4 complete and entire mods for this entire Forum?
> ...



Shelly!


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## Jacqui (Sep 12, 2013)

jaizei said:


> Jacqui said:
> 
> 
> > ascott said:
> ...



OMGosh!! I am sooo red right now! I did forget Shelly. I knew that list did not sound right. *hides head in shame*

Thank you Cameron for correcting that. 

Ummmm can I blame that on old age?


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## RuthJanice (Sep 12, 2013)

Wow... I have not been a member of the forum for very long and am exhausted just reading all of this. I only joined to get advice from those that have walked the path of tort ownership and learn from their misakes/success. I take all advice into consideration given my location, etc. Since we are not all the same, we cannot expect we all will share the same views however, we are all here for the same common cause and goals of giving our precious torts the best life we can. I do appreciate the mods assisting in helping everyone play nice. I am sure some of my posts seem like stupid questions or non important topics, however they are important to me and I always assume someone who can relate or help will respond. I do appreciate everyone here and enjoy looking at everyone's posts and pictures. So it may not be perfect but its still a great forum.


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## FROG (Sep 12, 2013)

I think ascott is right , nobody should be allowed to change any postings or delete any threads because they don't agree with the way you word it . I have been a member since May and find what seems to be a large amount of animosities between some members. I truly enjoy several threads and often wonder why some of the more experienced members seem to be selectively inactive.


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## Yvonne G (Sep 12, 2013)

ANGELA13 said:


> I think ascott is right , nobody should be allowed to change any postings or delete any threads because they don't agree with the way you word it .



Let's just address this right now. None of us arbitrarily change postings or delete threads *because we don't agree with the way you've worded it.*

We change bad/cuss/inappropriate words. We delete whole posts that break the rules.

The first rule is very specific: Do not post anything blatantly rude and/or insulting.

This is most often the rule that the mods have to enforce.

And as long as I'm on the subject of "THE RULES," rule #5 states:

Taunting, berating, or antagonizing moderators and/or staff will not be tolerated. Issues with our 100% volunteer staff can be directed to [email protected].

Some of you have skated very close to breaking rule #5 here in this thread.


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## Madkins007 (Sep 12, 2013)

ANGELA13 said:


> (snip) I truly enjoy several threads and often wonder why some of the more experienced members seem to be selectively inactive.



One interesting phenomena on almost all forums- but especially hobby-based forums- is that at some point a lot of 'old hands' just stop being as active. Part of it is moving on to other things, some of it is a strong sense of 'I've already answered this question a thousand times' or some other form of 'been there done that'. Some of it is a basic tendency in any hobby that as you get deeper and deeper into it, you begin to get interested in different aspects that may or may not still involve being active in the forum.

This also happens in hobby-based clubs, etc.


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## wellington (Sep 12, 2013)

To my knowledge, we DO NOT change anything because we don't like the way you worded it or disagree with it. We will correct bad language, name calling and even if you know your spell check did you wrong, we will spell the word correctly for you. I personally have done this once and did send that person a pm. Like I said before, we do make mistakes, we may forget a pm here or there. We do not delete, or change things just because we don't agree with it. We are not perfect, same as all of you, we do make mistakes, same as all of you. We may forget to do something, same as all of you. We bite our tongues way more then any of you. We try to be fair with all the bad post we do have to delete. Sometimes editing is done so a post can stay in. We try to give the offending parties as many, too many chances, to stop their mud slinging, before deleting. Tell me you haven't seen one or more of us mods asking for a thread that has gone bad to keep it nice and on subject. The older members seem to forget why they are here. Thankfully many newer members have been pointing it out. We not only have our own lives to live and it's not just this forum but we 99% of the time will approve a new member, welcome them and try to advise them if possible. Approve all new members post, keep track if they are duplicates, which usually they are, scan other threads to see if everyone is following rules and still read threads and post just for our own knowledge and fun. I think this idea of us having our own agenda and deleting because we don't agree with whats being said, or because we don't like the way someone worded it is very insulting. Usually people that are so suspicious of others, are so, because they are suspect themselves.


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## ascott (Sep 12, 2013)

> deleting because _we don't agree with whats being said_, or because we _don't like the way _someone worded it _*is very insulting.*_



This is the funniest thing I have read in a very long time.



> Usually people that are so suspicious of others, are so, because they are suspect themselves.



I have found this to be true too of the suspect folks trying to render their actions innocent to others instead of owning their own actions for what they are....


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## wellington (Sep 12, 2013)

I don't know where you think we are hiding anything. I don't lie, don't need to hide behind anything and I have nothing to hide. There are some people that no matter what we do, they will never be happy, will always be suspicious and will always find something to complain about. Unfortunately, I think this forum has more then its fair share and your one of them. Can't please them all, and I am done trying to explain what we do and don't do. ChowðŸ˜†


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## harris (Sep 13, 2013)

Jacqui said:


> Kristina I am not sure of.



I've seen her hanging out on that "other" forum lately.


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## laney (Sep 13, 2013)

Right so we've got the people who don't like the way things are run,
The people who do like the way things are run,
So the mods have agreed to meet somewhere in the middle, can we just put a stop to this now and see how things go?
Rome wasn't built in a day! Lets give it time to sort things out and get back to the torts pleeeeeease


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## Madkins007 (Sep 13, 2013)

mainey34 said:


> Madkins007 said:
> 
> 
> > mainey34 said:
> ...



You made a comment that included inflammatory words and accusations. I replied, using inflammatory words in my reply- and neither of us got fluffed or edited. Imagine that! In a forum where moderators are being accused of selective editing all of the time, neither of us had it happen to us here.

'Twisting it' is entirely your take on it, and I have no need to defend my fellow mods- I've only met one of them in real life, and don't know squat about most of the rest but I know they can stand up for themselves if they need to. From my point of view, I just challenged you on what your comments and accusations.

"Ive had posts that had things deleted that made me sound like a complete idiot." Umm... so what was deleted from these posts?


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## sibi (Sep 13, 2013)

Angela, since we know that the mods are working on the.problem, and that it's going to take some time, can you just end this thread? It just doesn't accomplish anything anymore. People are just rehashing stuff and it's not helpful. The change is coming, we'll have a chance to review it, and hopefully it will satisfy some. At the very least, it will advise members of any editing. But only you can request to end this thread. Will you?


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## ascott (Sep 13, 2013)

> But only you can request to end this thread



Folks are compelled to visit the thread.... 

If folks do not visit this thread then it is complete. 

Simply because someone says that they are working on a resolution this does not mean it has yet come to fruition.

This thread was started to hear what others thought...and that is being shared now.

If you are no longer interested in the thread after you have shared your thoughts--please then do not continue to visit the thread.


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## mainey34 (Sep 14, 2013)

Are you really trying to pick a fight? Cause if you are its on! There is no need for this. If you would use your brain and read what i said. By removing some of the thread it made me sound like an idiot. What is your problem here? MARK?!?! THE ONLY REASON IT WAS OVERLOOKED IS BECAUSE OF WHO YOU ARE... I was going to drop it and be civil, but you had to open the can of worms...very professional of you. Egg it on some more....


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## Yvonne G (Sep 14, 2013)

I believe Mark was asking you to give an example so we all could see just what fluffing had occurred. Tell us what was deleted that made the remaining post make you look like an idiot.

I would like to pose that same question to the rest of you who think you have been violated. Tell us exactly what was cut out of your post that was so benign in your way of thinking that it should have been allowed to stay.


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## Mserratore (Sep 14, 2013)

I was new to this forum and stopped using it due to the rudeness of some people. Some of the members acted as though their opinions were the only ones that mattered and you were an idiot for looking elsewhere. I love my tortoises and am a highly educated person who believes in doing my research. I have gone elsewhere for information because of the way I was responded to here. I browse occasionally but am disappointed in the way that some people react with such disrespect when they are not agreed with. I would never post a question on this site because of the disrespect and condescending attitudes.


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## mike taylor (Sep 14, 2013)

I think the problems are the way people word stuff . Its so hard to tell a joke . If you would use more of these :exclamation::angel::dodgy::shy::-/:at::idea::heart::blush::sleepy::s I think people would under stand. And some questions that are asked can be avoided by just going to say the African tortoise section and reading care tips and so on. And when some tells you something that helps say thank you .

Sent from my C771 using TortForum mobile app


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## ascott (Sep 14, 2013)

> who *think* you have been violated.



Wow, I believe we are all being fluffed about any resolution now. Take care all.


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## Sh3wulf (Sep 15, 2013)

[SMILING FACE WITH OPEN MOUTH] Fluffed or not fluffed I personally greatly appreciate the efforts of those that run the forum, and take the personal time and effort to give us newbs a learning environment. 

If a few misdirected comments or personal attacks are moderated, oh well. Take a breath, realize that just like in life, sometimes you won't get your way and move on. 

I certainly hope people can try and imagine the amount of time that moderators must invest in their position, on their personal time, to ensure a forum continues in an appropriate and educating manner good for all ages. 

Thanks moderators, this forum offers a great learning environment and many a reptilian friend are benefitting as a result


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## ICUSleeping (Sep 15, 2013)

I don't even understand why this conversation is still going on. If you're not rude inconsiderate or the total Butthead then you won't have to worry about your post being edit. Moderators: have a job( and DO CARE) and that's what they're doing they have to take control of people who can't use proper language or talk in a decent matter to someone. They have already come up with a solution the day of or shortly after this post has come out. The fact that people are still on here complaining and whining is dumb & annoying . And being rude to the moderators is not going to solve anything but prove this fact. People that are unhappy they left simple as that. Its not a dictatorship in this form. Everyone has the right to speak their peace but everyone forgets that there's kids and teenagers involved because it is an open forum to anyone and everyone around the world. I don't know how many post or thread that I've seen with people arguing back and forth with each other people talking to each other like trash, making new members feel like absolute crap. I've only been a member for 2 years and I plan on continuing to be a member for as long as my torts are alive.The people that say josh hasn't seen it or just doesn't care I'm pretty sure he has run by this thread already. everyone is talking about edited this and fluffed that get over it. Be a freaking adult don't belittle somebody don't curse somebody out watch your language watch how you come out and maybe you won't be edited or fluffed. People forget the kids come to this form too, yousit there and you be little them or you talk to them like crap you make them feel stupid and then the next thing you know, they might be the type of person who ruins good animals because they can't get good advice from a good forum because someone decided to curse them out and be little them and make them feel so dumb that they don't properly care for an animal that's just ridiculous and sad. If you're so freakin un happy stop coming stop posting stop complaining find a different forum do something that does make you happy but for god sakes get back to the freaking forum and stop talking crap on this thread get over it already. They have already come up with a solution period End of discussion. I'm not going to quote any members on what they said because I read almost every single comment since this thread has started so please don't reply back with your explanation on why this or why that I really don't care I'm stating my piece just like everybody else. Some of you have valid facts and are respectful some of you DONT and are plane out rude and nasty . At this point everyone's so hooked on this thread you've forgotten the base purpose of this place. I for one am tired of this bitter bickering over non since and will no longer waste my time reading non sence. Hopefully everybody can put on there big boy pants and just move on cuz if you're going to get your panties in a wad over stuff that may have or may have not affected you personally like some of the older members then you need to just stop talking junk and keep it movin. Especially since a solution or maybe kind of a solution has come up already.


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## luvpetz27 (Sep 15, 2013)

I think everyone would forget about this thread if people would stop posting to it. I personally look at it everytime I see a new post. I am tired of this thread also. I think I am done reading it now...


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## mainey34 (Sep 15, 2013)

Yvonne G said:


> I believe Mark was asking you to give an example so we all could see just what fluffing had occurred. Tell us what was deleted that made the remaining post make you look like an idiot.
> 
> I would like to pose that same question to the rest of you who think you have been violated. Tell us exactly what was cut out of your post that was so benign in your way of thinking that it should have been allowed to stay.


First off i will not embarrass my self once again on here. It has been brought up a couple of times, and i see that the only reason you are not "fluffing " some of these posts are to make a point. In a different setting, on a different post. I guarantee you would be deleting a few of my posts...am i right???


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## mainey34 (Sep 15, 2013)

mainey34 said:



> Yvonne G said:
> 
> 
> > I believe Mark was asking you to give an example so we all could see just what fluffing had occurred. Tell us what was deleted that made the remaining post make you look like an idiot.
> ...


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## Terry Allan Hall (Sep 21, 2013)

Moozilion said:


> This is just my personal opinion. One of the reasons I stay with this forum is BECAUSE of active Moderators. I have checked out other forums and was totally turned off by the condescending, belittling nature of many of the posts there. Moderating is not an easy job, and there will never be 100% agreement on it, but I feel it helps keep the forum focused. Just my 2 cents.



Agreed.


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## yagyujubei (Oct 16, 2013)

I just made a post here, and it hasn't posted as far as I can see. Interesting...Anyway, I simply stated that I just had several posts edited and removed arbitrarily. There was no promised notice. Bet no one is surprised by that. I am done contributing here.


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## mainey34 (Oct 16, 2013)

yagyujubei said:


> I just made a post here, and it hasn't posted as far as I can see. Interesting...Anyway, I simply stated that I just had several posts edited and removed arbitrarily. There was no promised notice. Bet no one is surprised by that. I am done contributing here.


Were you told that they were going to do that? And i will bet you Didnt get an explanation of why...


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## BeeBee*BeeLeaves (Oct 16, 2013)

I totally love this forum. I have learned so much. My tortoise keeping is better because of it and I personally believe there are a lot of wonderful, experienced, willing to share, more expert than me people who will help those who ask for help if they ask and are open to the responses they receive. 
That being said, I am never going to read this thread again, I promise myself. It was on the Portal and it made me look. Bad Portal, very bad Portal. Moving on ... next ...


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## Cowboy_Ken (Oct 16, 2013)

I once started a thread that wasn't where I started it. I asked where it went and it was pointed out to me that I posted it in the wrong section and was moved to the appropriate sub-section. In life, I think things can progress smoothly when folks take personal ownership of their actions on an interpersonal level, not an extropersonal level. There are members of whom I don't care for for any number of reasons, so I don't interact with them. I value my time too much.


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## tortadise (Oct 16, 2013)

Cowboy_Ken said:


> I once started a thread that wasn't where I started it. I asked where it went and it was pointed out to me that I posted it in the wrong section and was moved to the appropriate sub-section. In life, I think things can progress smoothly when folks take personal ownership of their actions on an interpersonal level, not an extropersonal level. There are members of whom I don't care for for any number of reasons, so I don't interact with them. I value my time too much.



I know I will move many threads to a different forum. If it is out of relevance pertaining to the original one posted to. Example would be, a post in the sulcata forum about food, I would move that to tortoise diet. As far as manipulating, editing, or deleting actual written material. That will be sent in a notification to the author. Unless it is outright against the rules, contains inappropriate material like profanity etc..


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## Cowboy_Ken (Oct 16, 2013)

And I appreciate that!


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## N2TORTS (Oct 16, 2013)

"Anyone else here tired of being deleted or fluffed? 
Likely this thread will be deleted or fluffed before many will see....but going to give it a try anyways...well, to see if there is still any real forum here where folks can share....

I have noticed, more so recently, that many threads are having the posts fluffed for nice nice instead of allowing the thread to develop a life of its own---amongst the general population? 

Now, don't misunderstand.... I don't find it beneficial for folks to get into cussing matches or outright vicious attacks on one another..however, if there is a certain level of banter that takes place without harsh name calling or the like...then I believe the moderators should take their place in the shadows to enter a block post reminding folks to not be vicious---BUT I do not believe that moderators should be under the impression that the run this forum---that I believe is Josh. I also believe that this forum has been going on strong due to its members, right.....not solely moderators.

I also believe that moderators should be voted in and not simply clicked in....I mean are we not a forum full of members? Why do members not get to decide who the moderators will be? I believe that at present there are some less than adult acting moderators at work here and it truly is making this forum a playground more than a resource....

So, I have not blasted anyone person here....I have not cussed anyone out here....I have not slandered anyone here...but lets just see what comes of this thread. I would like to hear what some of the other members "feel" on this thread...."

*******************************************************











**********BINGO****** WELL SAID MY FRIEND!


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## Cowboy_Ken (Oct 16, 2013)

Can't those that have the problems with the way the forum is set up and operated just go start their own forum? I have no idea how one would go about doing such a thing, but it makes sense to me. 
When u
I got tired of my restaurant messing up my tenderloin, I decided it was far more important to me to cook it myself and not deal with the crap involved. And now I only visit at lunch for a simple bacon/cheese burger.


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## Terry Allan Hall (Oct 16, 2013)

Pleased to participate here, where I can share my knowledge (and add greatly to it), and I'm proud to have made some really great friends. 

I realize that some folks may not feel like this place is the best possible of forums, _but it suits me just fine_, and I feel like the mods have ALWAYS been very fair, even when we don't see exactly eyes to eye.


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## mainey34 (Oct 16, 2013)

N2TORTS said:


> "Anyone else here tired of being deleted or fluffed?
> Likely this thread will be deleted or fluffed before many will see....but going to give it a try anyways...well, to see if there is still any real forum here where folks can share....
> 
> I have noticed, more so recently, that many threads are having the posts fluffed for nice nice instead of allowing the thread to develop a life of its own---amongst the general population?
> ...



WELL SAID, JD......


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## Yvonne G (Oct 16, 2013)

yagyujubei said:


> I just made a post here, and it hasn't posted as far as I can see. Interesting...Anyway, I simply stated that I just had several posts edited and removed arbitrarily. There was no promised notice. Bet no one is surprised by that. I am done contributing here.



It wasn't arbitrary at all. I did what we said we were going to do. I removed the offensive posts from the thread and sent you an email telling you that when you made acceptable corrections your posts would be put back up. When I saw that you had posted here saying you had been fluffed, I assumed you had not read your emails yet and that I was dealing with the problem so I removed your fluffing comment from this thread. 

When the problem is being dealt with, there is no reason to beat the horse to death in this thread. The ball is back in your court. When you correct your offensive post, it will be put back up, just like we all agreed to when this problem showed up first time around.


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## Redstrike (Oct 16, 2013)

ascott said:


> Likely this thread will be deleted or fluffed before many will see....but going to give it a try anyways...well, to see if there is still any real forum here where folks can share....
> 
> I have noticed, more so recently, that many threads are having the posts fluffed for nice nice instead of allowing the thread to develop a life of its own---amongst the general population?
> 
> ...



I'm just now reading this post, it's been replied to many times over but I agree with Angela's initial assertions above, 100%. 

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this, Angela.


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## terryo (Oct 16, 2013)

Terry Allan Hall said:


> Pleased to participate here, where I can share my knowledge (and add greatly to it), and I'm proud to have made some really great friends.
> 
> I realize that some folks may not feel like this place is the best possible of forums, _but it suits me just fine_, and I feel like the mods have ALWAYS been very fair, even when we don't see exactly eyes to eye.



I feel exactly the same way.


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## lisa127 (Oct 16, 2013)

terryo said:


> Terry Allan Hall said:
> 
> 
> > Pleased to participate here, where I can share my knowledge (and add greatly to it), and I'm proud to have made some really great friends.
> ...



Me too.


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## Tom (Oct 16, 2013)

I have had personal experience with the "new" system that we all requested. It worked, I was able to discuss the matter, and given the chance to plead my case and rephrase.

I feel satisfied with the way things are being handled now. Thanks to the mods who were involved.


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## Cowboy_Ken (Oct 16, 2013)

And we all gotta live with our selves after all.


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## Madkins007 (Oct 20, 2013)

Huh. I did not realize this thread was still open.

I really appreciate those who took the time to publically support the work of the active and dedicated moderators*, and who realize that they are human and just trying to make this a helpful and fun place for tortoise enthusiasts. Thank you.

(* unlike me)


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