# Kamp Kenan



## Cayleh (Aug 24, 2022)

So, my husband and I have been fans of Kamp Kenan for a while now. So when we were in Daytona and saw that he was selling tortoises, we were excited to be able to get babies from him. Initially when we got them, they looked good and we were very happy. When we got home, got them soaking, and gave them some food, we noticed yellow bumps. I immediately freaked out because between the bumps, peeling skin, missing claws, I knew what it was. Both babies were infected with Austwickia. We did let him know there was an issue, and he apologized stating he didn't know they were sick. I fully believe he didn't know, only because he has such a large number of babies, it is impossible to know that every one of them is healthy. He did refund us our money, which I respect. However we have basically since been ghosted, despite being told he wanted updates on the babies. He stated he would "look into it" and claimed he pulled his babies from being sold this year, however I have no way to know if this is true or not because he only sells through e mail and does not post about them. However, what upsets me is he has such a huge following, that one, he could have easily warned people who bought sick animals at Daytona, and two, he could have used it to educate. We bought the babies on Saturday, and as of Tuesday had to euthanize one of them, and the other we are attempting to treat while he still has fight in him, but know that ultimately he will very likely end up having to be euthanized as well. I am incredibly upset that not only are we out all this money for having to put one baby to sleep, but out all this money for a course of antibiotics that can last more than a year IF he survives that long, with no guarantee to even work. We are also upset that all of this happened from someone who we respected and admired so heavily. 
I still have hope that he will do the right thing, warn customers, and teach about Austwickia. But who knows. I do know that he is not someone I will shop from again nor support by watching videos if he doesn't speak up and do the right thing. Overall disappointed and saddened by the loss of our brand new baby.


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## ZEROPILOT (Aug 24, 2022)

He is entertaining. But there's A LOT that he does that I don't agree with.

Thank you for the information and keep us updated in this thread


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## G-stars (Aug 24, 2022)

Can you mention what species please? As far as I know it’s only been detected in 2-3 species so far.


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## Cayleh (Aug 24, 2022)

G-stars said:


> Can you mention what species please? As far as I know it’s only been detected in 2-3 species so far.


Sulcata


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## G-stars (Aug 24, 2022)

Cayleh said:


> Sulcata


Thank you for sharing that information. Unfortunately that seems to be the species that this virus is mostly associated with. I wonder how many unreported cases there has been. Sulcatas are usually purchased by first time reptile/tortoise owners, so I wonder if they don’t see those symptoms until it’s too late and the animal has died.


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## Cayleh (Aug 24, 2022)

G-stars said:


> Thank you for sharing that information. Unfortunately that seems to be the species that this virus is mostly associated with. I wonder how many unreported cases there has been. Sulcatas are usually purchased by first time reptile/tortoise owners, so I wonder if they don’t see those symptoms until it’s too late and the animal has died.


I knew as soon as I saw it. My husband said he'd never have noticed until it was too late. Shoot, many of the people in the group where I was like, asking if people noticed what I did, were saying they looked fine.


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## vladimir (Aug 25, 2022)

so sorry to hear this  I'm assuming you've seen this part of the forum? https://tortoiseforum.org/forums/yellow-bumps-on-tortoises.146/


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## wellington (Aug 25, 2022)

Yep not surprising really. He is entertaining but that's about it. I wouldn't buy from him or listen to much he has to say about care.
I also have a feeling he knew he had the highly contagious desease in his herd. He likes to talk like he knows so much. How do you breed sulcatas and not check everyone for this desease!
So sorry this happened. Thankful you told us who the breeder was.


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## wellington (Aug 25, 2022)

Please also post in Vendor review.


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## Cayleh (Aug 25, 2022)

wellington said:


> Please also post in Vendor review.


I thought I did. Lol. Im so confused, where did I post it under? Lol


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## Cayleh (Aug 25, 2022)

wellington said:


> Yep not surprising really. He is entertaining but that's about it. I wouldn't buy from him or listen to much he has to say about care.
> I also have a feeling he knew he had the highly contagious desease in his herd. He likes to talk like he knows so much. How do you breed sulcatas and not check everyone for this desease!
> So sorry this happened. Thankful you told us who the breeder was.


I kinda felt that too. Like, how did he not know this bacteria existed? He acted like he had no clue what was going on and stated hed look in to what happened. Gave him a number to call of one of the guys here who researches it, and he never even called.


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## Cayleh (Aug 25, 2022)

vladimir said:


> so sorry to hear this  I'm assuming you've seen this part of the forum? https://tortoiseforum.org/forums/yellow-bumps-on-tortoises.146/


I have


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## TeamZissou (Aug 25, 2022)

This has pretty big implications for austwickia spreading to many other species. Kenan seems to have dozens of species, and if he is selling tortoises with it at a reptile show and is generally not aware, he probably does not follow any bio security practices when handling different species. People should probably avoid buying any species from him unless or until he shows that he has gotten rid of it.


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## Cayleh (Aug 25, 2022)

TeamZissou said:


> This has pretty big implications for austwickia spreading to many other species. Kenan seems to have dozens of species, and if he is selling tortoises with it at a reptile show and is generally not aware, he probably does not follow any bio security practices when handling different species. People should probably avoid buying any species from him unless or until he shows that he has gotten rid of it.


He had other babies too. Dont know which kind. But one guy while we were in line, bought 10 sulcata babies, and 2 or 3 of this other species. The possibility of it spreading to other breeders thanks to him being at the show as well, its astronomical. People don't proprrly wash hands between vendors at these shows.


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## Tom (Aug 25, 2022)

This bacterial disease is everywhere now. Species lines are crossed. Its been documented in lots of snakes, lizards, and many tortoise species. It is hitting everyone now and there doesn't seem to be any logical explanation for where it is coming from or how it is spreading in some cases. Some cases can be obviously traced back to the origins, but now we are learning of cases since back in 2010 from Ivory sulcatas, which is where I first saw it in 2011. Its popping up everywhere. It appears we will be living with it for the foreseeable future.

It appears now that anyone keeping any type of reptile is being hit with it. Its bad, and its not clear what can be done about it. I'm not moving any animals on or of my ranch for the next year at least, and I won't be buying or taking in any new snakes, lizards or chelonians of any kind for the foreseeable future.


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## wellington (Aug 25, 2022)

Cayleh said:


> I thought I did. Lol. Im so confused, where did I post it under? Lol


Sorry I guess you did. I'm actually going to move it out as only those with experience with the vendor can lost. Then I will copy it back to vendor review.


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## Yvonne G (Aug 25, 2022)

I don't know the man and haven't watched much of his videos,but I've heard he mixes species. 

Finding Austwickia in his group of baby sulcata might be a death sentence for his business.


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## ZEROPILOT (Aug 25, 2022)

G-stars said:


> Thank you for sharing that information. Unfortunately that seems to be the species that this virus is mostly associated with. I wonder how many unreported cases there has been. Sulcatas are usually purchased by first time reptile/tortoise owners, so I wonder if they don’t see those symptoms until it’s too late and the animal has died.


So true.
Has this been documented in Redfoot tortoises?
I may stop taking in tortoises for a while


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## Tom (Aug 25, 2022)

ZEROPILOT said:


> So true.
> Has this been documented in Redfoot tortoises?
> I may stop taking in tortoises for a while


Yes. And it appears that adults or juveniles of most species are unaffected asymptomatic carriers.


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## ZEROPILOT (Aug 25, 2022)

Tom said:


> Yes. And it appears that adults or juveniles of most species are unaffected asymptomatic carriers.


Geez
OK I'm shutting things down.

Thank you


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## Sarah2020 (Aug 25, 2022)

What a sad post. As humans we have battled covid pandemic and now this Austwickia is contagious with various reptiles not just sulcata. We followed the yellow bumps for a few years and the sadness of death and total deep clean. Thanks for posting as good to share. Agree utmost care required when taking in new reptiles.


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## jsheffield (Aug 25, 2022)

Tom said:


> Yes. And it appears that adults or juveniles of most species are unaffected asymptomatic carriers.


Yikes... do you know of reported cases among MEPs?
I just added two hatchlings to my creep, and although they live in a separate enclosure, and I am using quarantine procedures, I'm not at 100% caution levels... I'd hate for Aretha to infect Ella and Louis.

Jamie


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## Tom (Aug 25, 2022)

jsheffield said:


> Yikes... do you know of reported cases among MEPs?
> I just added two hatchlings to my creep, and although they live in a separate enclosure, and I am using quarantine procedures, I'm not at 100% caution levels... I'd hate for Aretha to infect Ella and Louis.
> 
> Jamie


I have not.

@mastershake Any Manouria cases yet?


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## ZEROPILOT (Aug 25, 2022)

I wonder if this was started by cross species contamination.


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## Yvonne G (Aug 25, 2022)

ZEROPILOT said:


> I wonder if this was started by cross species contamination.


Very good point!


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## turtlesteve (Aug 25, 2022)

This disease is everywhere now. It is time to lock everything down and wait this out for a couple years to see what happens. 

Steve


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## wellington (Aug 25, 2022)

ZEROPILOT said:


> I wonder if this was started by cross species contamination.


Wow good point.


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## mark1 (Aug 25, 2022)

Cayleh said:


> So, my husband and I have been fans of Kamp Kenan for a while now. So when we were in Daytona and saw that he was selling tortoises, we were excited to be able to get babies from him. Initially when we got them, they looked good and we were very happy. When we got home, got them soaking, and gave them some food, we noticed yellow bumps. I immediately freaked out because between the bumps, peeling skin, missing claws, I knew what it was. Both babies were infected with Austwickia. We did let him know there was an issue, and he apologized stating he didn't know they were sick. I fully believe he didn't know, only because he has such a large number of babies, it is impossible to know that every one of them is healthy. He did refund us our money, which I respect. However we have basically since been ghosted, despite being told he wanted updates on the babies. He stated he would "look into it" and claimed he pulled his babies from being sold this year, however I have no way to know if this is true or not because he only sells through e mail and does not post about them. However, what upsets me is he has such a huge following, that one, he could have easily warned people who bought sick animals at Daytona, and two, he could have used it to educate. We bought the babies on Saturday, and as of Tuesday had to euthanize one of them, and the other we are attempting to treat while he still has fight in him, but know that ultimately he will very likely end up having to be euthanized as well. I am incredibly upset that not only are we out all this money for having to put one baby to sleep, but out all this money for a course of antibiotics that can last more than a year IF he survives that long, with no guarantee to even work. We are also upset that all of this happened from someone who we respected and admired so heavily.
> I still have hope that he will do the right thing, warn customers, and teach about Austwickia. But who knows. I do know that he is not someone I will shop from again nor support by watching videos if he doesn't speak up and do the right thing. Overall disappointed and saddened by the loss of our brand new baby.


when folks become dependent on selling animals for a living their moral compass inevitably changes , if it wasn't lacking to begin with , jmo.......... can i ask how was it diagnosed ?


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## Cayleh (Aug 25, 2022)

mark1 said:


> when folks become dependent on selling animals for a living their moral compass inevitably changes , if it wasn't lacking to begin with , jmo.......... can i ask how was it diagnosed ?


We honestly do not have a 100% guaranteed disgnosis yet. Basically they stated they are CONFIDENT its that, but until we can afford the biopsies, we are going with the assumption that it is. My husband did finally hear back from Kenan, who states he is having biopsies done. But we also spoke with a guy here on the forums, I BELIEVE its Mastershake just based on reading around here. But he said based on the pictures I sent him, he was pretty confident too. Yellow spots/lumps, peeling skin, missing claws. Plus vet found multiple signs of sepsis, like red lines and stuff on the shell of the one that we ended up euthanizing. Hopefully we can get a good spot here soon and afford to biopsy it. But the guy we currently have left, his larger spots have been like, part of his really bad peeling skin and have come off.


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## Dawn'sTooToo (Aug 26, 2022)

G-stars said:


> Thank you for sharing that information. Unfortunately that seems to be the species that this virus is mostly associated with. I wonder how many unreported cases there has been. Sulcatas are usually purchased by first time reptile/tortoise owners, so I wonder if they don’t see those symptoms until it’s too late and the animal has died.


I find it interesting that first time tort buyers would go for a Sulcata. Russian or Hermann would be so much “easier” and more forgiving.


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## ZEROPILOT (Aug 26, 2022)

Dawn'sTooToo said:


> I find it interesting that first time tort buyers would go for a Sulcata. Russian or Hermann would be so much “easier” and more forgiving.


It's an absolutely horrible impulse purchase


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## Cayleh (Aug 26, 2022)

ZEROPILOT said:


> It's an absolutely horrible impulse purchase


Wasnt an impulse buy. We already have a young one, have a good sized inside and outside wnclosure, as well as we had everything required for a quarantine enclosure.


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## glassbird (Aug 26, 2022)

I used to watch his videos, but lost all respect for him when he found an animal that had been stolen from his property (some sort of dark lizard). He was more concerned with getting overly dramatic video footage than he was with getting that poor, stressed, and clearly COLD reptile into a proper recovery situation. He just went on and on about the thrill of getting the lizard back, while the poor creature sat on a cold floor, not moving.


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## ZEROPILOT (Aug 26, 2022)

Cayleh said:


> Wasnt an impulse buy. We already have a young one, have a good sized inside and outside wnclosure, as well as we had everything required for a quarantine enclosure.


I meant in general. It was not directed at you.
We see many new keepers getting in way over their heads.


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## jsheffield (Aug 26, 2022)

I'm wondering & worried about how many people handled those infected hatchlings before wandering all around the convention hall, handling other vendors' hatchlings...

Jamie


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## wellington (Aug 26, 2022)

Dawn'sTooToo said:


> I find it interesting that first time tort buyers would go for a Sulcata. Russian or Hermann would be so much “easier” and more forgiving.


Many want a large tortoise not one that stays small. If they only have room for one, they should get what they want.


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## Tom (Aug 26, 2022)

Dawn'sTooToo said:


> I find it interesting that first time tort buyers would go for a Sulcata. Russian or Hermann would be so much “easier” and more forgiving.


You are not alone. I also can't understand what people think they are going to do with an active giant tropical reptile that needs thousands of square feet of warm area to walk around in, in a frozen winter climate.

Note to anyone reading: If you live in a NYC apartment, a sulcata is NOT the right species for you.


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## Obbie (Aug 26, 2022)

G-stars said:


> Thank you for sharing that information. Unfortunately that seems to be the species that this virus is mostly associated with. I wonder how many unreported cases there has been. Sulcatas are usually purchased by first time reptile/tortoise owners, so I wonder if they don’t see those symptoms until it’s too late and the animal has died.


Hopefully everyone does their due dillagence


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## elissaszoo (Aug 28, 2022)

Cayleh said:


> I thought I did. Lol. Im so confused, where did I post it under? Lol


Are you able to post any photos so we can see what this looks like? Could not find any online, only photos of lizards with this decease. Thanks in advance.


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## elissaszoo (Aug 28, 2022)

Cayleh said:


> He had other babies too. Dont know which kind. But one guy while we were in line, bought 10 sulcata babies, and 2 or 3 of this other species. The possibility of it spreading to other breeders thanks to him being at the show as well, i astronomical. People don't proprrly wash hands between vendors at these shows.


I was at the Daytona show and did not see him there and I don't see him listed in the vendor list. Where was his booth if you don't mind me asking? I did both rooms several times both days. Thanks.


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## Dawn'sTooToo (Aug 28, 2022)

wellington said:


> Many want a large tortoise not one that stays small. If they only have room for one, they should get what they want.


Def folks should get what they want. What I mean is Sulcatas are less forgiving (at least as youngsters) of poor or even just inadequate husbandry and their husbandry is harder to maintain for a lot of people (depending on where they live)


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## wellington (Aug 28, 2022)

Dawn'sTooToo said:


> Def folks should get what they want. What I mean is Sulcatas are less forgiving (at least as youngsters) of poor or even just inadequate husbandry and their husbandry is harder to maintain for a lot of people (depending on where they live)


More like more expensive then harder. I have leopards. Same care not same size or attitude. Almost everyone has to prepare for those cold nights. Those of us in the cold North have those cold nights and days longer. That's where the bigger costs come in.


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## mark1 (Aug 28, 2022)

elissaszoo said:


> I was at the Daytona show and did not see him there and I don't see him listed in the vendor list. Where was his booth if you don't mind me asking? I did both rooms several times both days. Thanks.


probably your post deserves an answer ........... i've had one interaction with the kenun guy , not a fan , one interaction was all i needed ..........

for someone to join and post this accusation the same day is certainly indicative of a pissed off individual .......hopefully they come back with more info ........

as far as self diagnoses , or a vet diagnosing on sight , if that were as easy as it is , well they wouldn't need cultures, pcr test, or microscopes .......not to mention more often than not a sick animal has more than one thing going on at a time ,often folks find what they're wanting or expecting to find ............

here's a half dozen or so diagnosed diseases , which ones are austwickia ?????


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## Yvonne G (Aug 28, 2022)

elissaszoo said:


> Are you able to post any photos so we can see what this looks like? Could not find any online, only photos of lizards with this decease. Thanks in advance.


Go to our home page. Click on "Tortoise Health" then click on "Yellow Bumps in Tortoises. " Starting at the top read through the threads. You will find some pictures there.


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## mastershake (Aug 28, 2022)

so here is my question if he gets a positive result will he say that? i know a couple other people now who bought one there and sent in emails and have yet to get a response. seeing the pics it def does look par for the course. im not going to say anything to allow someone to sue us but this is so widespread among sellers im not sure how anyone can not know about this by now. SO many people have actually stopped selling babies now who used to and some who do have steeply raised prices, i have recently seen some charging 200+ for babies. 

yes this is now seen in red foot (multiple), a yellow foot, greeks, leopards, a hingeback, aldabra, sulcata among others species, even a bearded dragon now that im guessing was infected because the person had a sulcata baby and they cross contaminated. they were sent to a lab for necropsy and they shared the result which was positive. 

this is now not going away and may never be going away. and it sucks. i dont know how many adults kenan still has BUT from people i know who were at the show they said he had a LOT of babies like one person bought 10-15 (i was told) and someone i trust very much walked by and said he had a lot of them. i dont know if his smaller group (i thought he did not have that many sulcata anymore from one video he did but i may be wrong) would produce that many in such a short time so im not sure if they were in fact all his or he maybe brought some in to sell. i cant say for sure. also at a show like daytona this could have devastating effects. many people do not practice proper hand sanitation after handling animals and may very well now have spread this to other species if this comes back that this is what it is (or if kenan will say it is thats a big question i have) and could cause huge damage. i know personally very well some of the sellers who were there one who i am a long time friend of and i told them about it because otherwise they would have no idea. they are highly protective of anyone touching the animals they bring so i think they should be okay but still. 

the other question is if these were in fact his babies then that means he has either an infected adult or somehow it found its way onto the property there. and what does that mean going forward. possibly an animal he brought in from someone else? his videos dont show how he does qt or if he even does. ive seen a few where he opens the box and lets them go right out into the water or into a pen. so again im not going to speculate there. 

someone else has contacted me though about a baby they got from him that has the bumps. is loosing toenails, and is now barely eating. they told me they would send them in if they pass but i can only go off that whether they actually do or not. i asked them to send them to us here directly or to send them to the lab for necropsy and i would pay for the necropsy to be done so i am hoping they follow through. 

for those that breed and sell this may be here to stay from now on and be something permanent just like coccidia or crypto. it may soon be something we all have to live with and hope we never get just like crypto. the best thing anyone can do at this point is practice extreme quarantine and treat every new animals as infected unless proven otherwise. 

i have been in contact with at least 7 people in the last two weeks who have POSITIVE diagnosis and have hundreds of other animals and have possible chance of cross contamination and are devastated and rightly so. one person may have already spread this to their other species since it was no sulcata they have the issue with and the animals sent to the lab were in fact positive upon necropsy.


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## mastershake (Aug 28, 2022)

mark1 said:


> probably your post deserves an answer ........... i've had one interaction with the kenun guy , not a fan , one interaction was all i needed ..........
> 
> for someone to join and post this accusation the same day is certainly indicative of a pissed off individual .......hopefully they come back with more info ........
> 
> ...




this is def true. i can only look for the tell tale signs. i let people know this does LOOK like aw and the only way to be 100% sure is a deep tissue biopsy or necropsy upon death. i have however seen prob 200+ cases in hand up close (with gloves and proper protection procedures) and every one of those animals who were actually sent into the lab (not all of them of course were) came back positive for aw. there are multiple labs now who have positive results across the usa. i agree with you that you cant 100% diagnose an animal from pics. but some of them have every symptom of this and its fairly common for them to be positive. i think so far only one time has an animal been sent in been negative for aw and it was something else but they only showed one of the typical symptoms. every sulcata who had the bumps/plaques toenails missing, swelling, facial issues etc all in one animal have been positive (again of those who were sent for testing). 

as well as others who had something along side aw besides when they were tested.


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## dd33 (Aug 28, 2022)

elissaszoo said:


> I was at the Daytona show and did not see him there and I don't see him listed in the vendor list. Where was his booth if you don't mind me asking? I did both rooms several times both days. Thanks.


He was there but didn't have his own booth. His tortoises were on a table in someone else's booth,


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## mastershake (Aug 28, 2022)

i wasnt there so that i dont know. i think a lot of people assumed it was his table


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## pacific chelonians (Aug 29, 2022)

Wow I’m not sure how I didn’t see this post earlier just thought that I would say how sorry I am for the bad circumstances that these babies are in what I find even more concerning is that I have seen him keep his sulcatas with his other species of tortoises I have dealt with Kenan a few times and A few friends have shared their experiences with me but just have come to terms with is that he prefers to do things on his own timeline and without concerns for others this being said I don’t think he’s a bad guy just not The most reliable or polite


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## mark1 (Aug 29, 2022)

mastershake said:


> this is def true. i can only look for the tell tale signs. i let people know this does LOOK like aw and the only way to be 100% sure is a deep tissue biopsy or necropsy upon death. i have however seen prob 200+ cases in hand up close (with gloves and proper protection i agree with you that you cant 100%


will the university of florida be publishing anything on these 200+
cases ? what exactly are they doing besides testing for it ......lots of published articles about austwickia , none even close to 200 cases ........ the university of oklahoma worked with a sulcata breeder who actually had an outbreak of austwickia in 2015 , i believe they worked with them until 2019 , identifying it and instructing them on how to eradicate it ....... they had nowhere close to 200 documented positive cases , not that they couldn't have , the breeder euthanized a large amount of untested baby sulcata's ..........

any bacterial or fungal infection in the nail bed will cause lost toenails ...i've seen rotted off toenails more than once , and treated them without issue ... same with the beak , any bacterial or fungal infection in the beak germinal layer or bone will cause a beak to , in extreme cases , fall off .......

dermatophilus has been documented, and written about, in bearded dragons since 1972 ...........

maybe it's just me , seems like what's being said here should be 100% verified ????i honestly don't like the kenum guy, i seriously think he's an +++++++, and i don't go to reptile shows......i do know as elissazoo said , this guy was not on the vendor list ...... has the original poster come back to answer their post ? or can one of the folks you know bought tortoises off him there answer that post? i'm pretty skeptical about info on the internet ......

here's two actual documented pictures of tortoises with austwickia


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## mastershake (Aug 29, 2022)

i cant say for sure what they will be doing. i do know that a leopard was JUST sent in who i am told they said was positive. as well as someone who was supposed to send in a chaco. we had many sent here to examine and take pics of (including ones we had brought in that were kept in full qt) as well as local people from around fl bring them to me or i met with to take a look at. most did not want to pay for necropsy. i should have worded that differently i have seen nearly that many total cases overall though. the ones here in hand were handled with gloves and extremely carefully. many of them were in hand. i am in the middle of daily cancer treatment and also trying to respond here as well so i did mis word that but i can not go and edit the post when i re read that i tried but the button was gone. but i have many pics of positive cases, dozens. i have posted many pics of babies who were actually tested positive here. we have had around 35 i believe shipped in here. with many people sent out to labs for necropsy at different labs themselves who got back to me to let me know results. as well as ones who have traveled to me here to have me look at and take pics of. as well as people who we traveled to locally within say 5-7 hours or so to check out. i have a red foot coming here, and another leopard this week for inspection once i see them ill decide to send them out or not.

one place in alb. nm alone had to euthanize 86 babies. they sent some for testing here and we sent some of those out to uf. they were positive. and every one ended up with the bumps on them shortly after within around 1-2 months along with toenails falling out some with major facial issues. they decided it best to not sell them. the ones that started that i was told came from underground reptiles in fl who we believe are buying them and not breeding them. i can not confirm this for sure that was just the info i was given. 4 of those were sent here one of those was sent to uf for necropsy and also verified positive. so yes there have def been that many cases overall.

in almost every case where the baby has died and tested positive they were missing toenails. some of those did not test for anything other then aw.

after doing enough necropsies uf said they know what it is and what the symptoms are and now are going to continue looking into further testing. the sensitivity has already been done before and they have also done it there. so there is not much else to do sadly unless the sources can be eliminated but i personally feel that its to late for that now.

i can assure you there are well over that many cases now between here the forum and facebook, and people calling us to ask questions, as well as shops and breeders bringing in babies to add to their groups wondering what these bumps are from pretty much every state now. one person just also talked to tom about it directly. another person just called last week with 12 babies, another with 3, another with 6, i think the one who talked to tom has 7 babies (i dont know how many of those have full symptoms yet though). this was just in the past 2 weeks. there are LOTS of them out there now.


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## Yvonne G (Aug 29, 2022)

mastershake said:


> i cant say for sure what they will be doing. i do know that a leopard was JUST sent in who i am told they said was positive. as well as someone who was supposed to send in a chaco. we had many sent here to examine and take pics of (including ones we had brought in that were kept in full qt) as well as local people from around fl bring them to me or i met with to take a look at. most did not want to pay for necropsy. i should have worded that differently i have seen nearly that many total cases overall though. the ones here in hand were handled with gloves and extremely carefully. many of them were in hand. i am in the middle of daily cancer treatment and also trying to respond here as well so i did mis word that but i can not go and edit the post when i re read that i tried but the button was gone. but i have many pics of positive cases, dozens. i have posted many pics of babies who were actually tested positive here. we have had around 35 i believe shipped in here. with many people sent out to labs for necropsy at different labs themselves who got back to me to let me know results. as well as ones who have traveled to me here to have me look at and take pics of. as well as people who we traveled to locally within say 5-7 hours or so to check out. i have a red foot coming here, and another leopard this week for inspection once i see them ill decide to send them out or not.
> 
> one place in alb. nm alone had to euthanize 86 babies. they sent some for testing here and we sent some of those out to uf. they were positive. and every one ended up with the bumps on them shortly after within around 1-2 months along with toenails falling out some with major facial issues. they decided it best to not sell them. the ones that started that i was told came from underground reptiles in fl who we believe are buying them and not breeding them. i can not confirm this for sure that was just the info i was given. 4 of those were sent here one of those was sent to uf for necropsy and also verified positive. so yes there have def been that many cases overall.
> 
> ...


So sorry to hear about the cancer. I truly hope it turns out well for you.

About those with whole clutches with the disease. . . does this mean one or more of the parents were infected? or how did the whole clutch get it?

It looks like I got out of the rescue business just in time.


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## mastershake (Aug 29, 2022)

hard to really say. they know it can be spread through fecal matter along with water, soil etc. so if the female defecates on the eggs or if the area becomes contaminated it can be spread that way.

they are doing radiation daily right now along with surgery i hope this week or next. we are def hoping for it to all go smoothly. they think for now they can get the spots treated and hopefully we dont see recurrence any time soon.


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## dd33 (Aug 29, 2022)

Sorry to hear about your health issues.

What is the largest tortoise you have seen die that either tested positive or exhibited symptoms? Do you think it is possible to have a bunch of adult tortoises and not know this is present until the hatchlings start dropping?


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## mastershake (Aug 29, 2022)

here we have only seen this in young animals personally. part of the one report from 2019 they suggest it could come from the female when the eggs are laid so while i can not say for sure since we have never seen an adult with the symptoms if you go off that report then yes an adult can carry it.


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## Cathie G (Aug 29, 2022)

mastershake said:


> hard to really say. they know it can be spread through fecal matter along with water, soil etc. so if the female defecates on the eggs or if the area becomes contaminated it can be spread that way.
> 
> they are doing radiation daily right now along with surgery i hope this week or next. we are def hoping for it to all go smoothly. they think for now they can get the spots treated and hopefully we dont see recurrence any time soon.


Get better! Soon!. Your research matters. you gotta keep on trucking


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## wellington (Aug 29, 2022)

mark1 said:


> will the university of florida be publishing anything on these 200+
> cases ? what exactly are they doing besides testing for it ......lots of published articles about austwickia , none even close to 200 cases ........ the university of oklahoma worked with a sulcata breeder who actually had an outbreak of austwickia in 2015 , i believe they worked with them until 2019 , identifying it and instructing them on how to eradicate it ....... they had nowhere close to 200 documented positive cases , not that they couldn't have , the breeder euthanized a large amount of untested baby sulcata's ..........
> 
> any bacterial or fungal infection in the nail bed will cause lost toenails ...i've seen rotted off toenails more than once , and treated them without issue ... same with the beak , any bacterial or fungal infection in the beak germinal layer or bone will cause a beak to , in extreme cases , fall off .......
> ...


Why are you doubting this so much? We have several cases already on here that fit the AW desease. Mastershake has been working with this for some time now and has proof of many cases. He or this forum can't make everyone that is suspected of having it in their tort send their tort in to be tested. I think with the proof mastershake has told us about is enough proof that this is spreading like wild fire and people should suspect it if their torts have any symptoms or be very cautious of buying anything from anyone.


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## wellington (Aug 29, 2022)

Wish you mastershake a speedy and full recovery.


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## tortoise16 2003 (Aug 30, 2022)

Have any Sulcata’s survived AW? Has there been a case of a full recovery I had some Sulcata’s that I purchased from AZ to resell in my area come with AW as soon as I found out I had all the babies euthanized but before I could it had spread to some of my other tortoises I had everything separated didn’t mix my Sulcata’s but somehow it mangled to spread to some of my Greeks which I was able to sell to a buddy of mine who wanted them with AW to examine the bacteria. I didn’t get any test done to be 100% sure it was AW but it seemed to be it. Surprising my friend said the Greeks are still alive and doing relatively good so it might not have be AW but im 95% sure it was. This is definitely a really scary disease and it seems there is no stopping it. It’s far to late to do anything to control it’s spread. A Total shutdown of Sulcata breeding for a few years will slow down its spread but that’s not possible.


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## tortoise16 2003 (Aug 30, 2022)

Also is it more contagious in indoor setting compared to outdoor ones? I’ve heard there have been studies showing UV rays can have harmful affects on bacteria and virus so would animals kept outside be less likely to spread it or general at a slower rate. Reason I’m asking is because it seems its been mainly seen in baby tortoises from what I'm hearing which are usually kept indoors.


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## tortoise16 2003 (Aug 30, 2022)

It’s been about 11-12 months since the Greeks I sold to my buddy started showing symptoms of what could be AW and they are still doing fine he said 2 males died right after he revived them but the rest are doing fine around 4-5 I’ll check back with him to get another update. If it is AW and the tortoises are surviving with it could that be a good thing should those animals be send to the lab to be tested?


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## wellington (Aug 30, 2022)

tortoise16 2003 said:


> It’s been about 11-12 months since the Greeks I sold to my buddy started showing symptoms of what could be AW and they are still doing fine he said 2 males died right after he revived them but the rest are doing fine around 4-5 I’ll check back with him to get another update. If it is AW and the tortoises are surviving with it could that be a good thing should those animals be send to the lab to be tested?


Are the Greeks adults? Even if they do survive and it is AW they still would not be able to be bred or they would/could pass it on to the hatchlings.


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## dd33 (Aug 30, 2022)

Were the greek tortoises adults? Did it spread to any of his other reptiles?


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## tortoise16 2003 (Aug 30, 2022)

Yeah the Greeks are adults he keeps the Greeks in an entirely separate location away from all his other reptiles. Yes they can pass it to other but since they are in an entirely separate location everything should be fine


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## wellington (Aug 30, 2022)

tortoise16 2003 said:


> Yeah the Greeks are adults he keeps the Greeks in an entirely separate location away from all his other reptiles. Yes they can pass it to other but since they are in an entirely separate location everything should be fine


That may be why they are surviving. I believe all that has been tested and that is known to have died so far that anyone knows of are hatchlings. Maybe adults can fight it much better. 
I sure hope your friend is not breeding and selling babies.
Also they need to be totally clean and sanitized before touching or going into another torts enclosure. Wearing the same shoes from one enclosure to another with spread it.


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## tortoise16 2003 (Aug 30, 2022)

wellington said:


> That may be why they are surviving. I believe all that has been tested and that is known to have died so far that anyone knows of are hatchlings. Maybe adults can fight it much better.
> I sure hope your friend is not breeding and selling babies.
> Also they need to be totally clean and sanitized before touching or going into another torts enclosure. Wearing the same shoes from one enclosure to another with spread it.


He isn’t breeding them and they are kept in tubs so the doesn’t walk in the enclosures.


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## mark1 (Aug 31, 2022)

mastershake said:


> hard to really say. they know it can be spread through fecal matter along with water, soil etc. so if the female defecates on the eggs or if the area becomes contaminated it can be spread that way.
> 
> they are doing radiation daily right now along with surgery i hope this week or next. we are def hoping for it to all go smoothly. they think for now they can get the spots treated and hopefully we dont see recurrence any time soon.


 best of luck with your treatment, they're getting better at every day .....


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## mark1 (Aug 31, 2022)

wellington said:


> Why are you doubting this so much? We have several cases already on here that fit the AW desease. Mastershake has been working with this for some time now and has proof of many cases. He or this forum can't make everyone that is suspected of having it in their tort send their tort in to be tested. I think with the proof mastershake has told us about is enough proof that this is spreading like wild fire and people should suspect it if their torts have any symptoms or be very cautious of buying anything from anyone.


this is the internet , i've seen "wildfires" that were in reality campfires ............. i believe this disease has been around a whole lot longer than you folks realize ........... i doubt it's anymore of an emerging epidemic than any of the incurable viral, bacterial , fungal or parasitic diseases that commonly occur in captive reptiles ... i see sulcatas for sale in lots of 100 , that's 100 tortoises kept in close proximity , often in hot wet conditions (dermatophilosis congolensis , is known as "rain rot") these babies are soak in communal tubs of water , any of the myriad of infectious diseases fatal to reptiles is a threat under those conditions ....... where do these 100 lot of tortoises go ? pet homes for 30 bucks and they die from a bacterial , viral , fungal or parasitic disease ....... i am sure the majority of all sulcatas hatched die within the first year....... i assure you if i were to tell you what the folks who have written articles on this disease recommend be done to avoid this disease , you would tell me they haven't a clue what they are talking about ..........

serious question , how many members of this board have had a documented case of AW ??????? 
most of what mastershake says i believe , but there has been some "misspeak" that has stood out to me ........ 

my pictures , 4 are AW the rest are not ......


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## wellington (Aug 31, 2022)

mark1 said:


> this is the internet , i've seen "wildfires" that were in reality campfires ............. i believe this disease has been around a whole lot longer than you folks realize ........... i doubt it's anymore of an emerging epidemic than any of the incurable viral, bacterial , fungal or parasitic diseases that commonly occur in captive reptiles ... i see sulcatas for sale in lots of 100 , that's 100 tortoises kept in close proximity , often in hot wet conditions (dermatophilosis congolensis , is known as "rain rot") these babies are soak in communal tubs of water , any of the myriad of infectious diseases fatal to reptiles is a threat under those conditions ....... where do these 100 lot of tortoises go ? pet homes for 30 bucks and they die from a bacterial , viral , fungal or parasitic disease ....... i am sure the majority of all sulcatas hatched die within the first year....... i assure you if i were to tell you what the folks who have written articles on this disease recommend be done to avoid this disease , you would tell me they haven't a clue what they are talking about ..........
> 
> serious question , how many members of this board have had a documented case of AW ???????
> most of what mastershake says i believe , but there has been some "misspeak" that has stood out to me ........
> ...


Don't think any members of the "board" even deals with young new hatchlings that they purchase, so none I know of.
Not everyone that buys them joins the forum. So we will never know the severity. Most diseases are around for a while before its discovered and then even longer before its determined to be something that is bad enough to look into. Specially when you're dealing with animals and then on top of that tortoises. 
I have been on here since 2011 and never heard of this. Also have had multiple lizards and never heard of this.
I believe the longer term members have never heard of this. It seems to have spread fast and with all similar symptoms. 
I just don't think it can be taken lightly. Anyone soaking 100 plus hatchlings in one bin is like a filthy no good puppy mill breeder. I have seen a few of our members with lots of babies but always multiple soaking bins. 
If the trail could be followed back to the original source, I'd bet it's one of those no good puppy mill type breeders.


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## mark1 (Aug 31, 2022)

dermatophilosis infections have been known for 100yrs , been known in reptiles for at least 50yrs ...... not long ago every dermatophilosis infection was congolensis ....... since dna identification i don't believe congolensis has ever been diagnosed in a reptile ....... makes me wonder what those dermatophilus infections in reptiles 50yrs ago were before they were using dna technology .......


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## turtlesteve (Aug 31, 2022)

mark1 said:


> this is the internet , i've seen "wildfires" that were in reality campfires ............. i believe this disease has been around a whole lot longer than you folks realize ........... i doubt it's anymore of an emerging epidemic than any of the incurable viral, bacterial , fungal or parasitic diseases that commonly occur in captive reptiles ... i see sulcatas for sale in lots of 100 , that's 100 tortoises kept in close proximity , often in hot wet conditions (dermatophilosis congolensis , is known as "rain rot") these babies are soak in communal tubs of water , any of the myriad of infectious diseases fatal to reptiles is a threat under those conditions ....... where do these 100 lot of tortoises go ? pet homes for 30 bucks and they die from a bacterial , viral , fungal or parasitic disease ....... i am sure the majority of all sulcatas hatched die within the first year....... i assure you if i were to tell you what the folks who have written articles on this disease recommend be done to avoid this disease , you would tell me they haven't a clue what they are talking about ..........
> 
> serious question , how many members of this board have had a documented case of AW ???????
> most of what mastershake says i believe , but there has been some "misspeak" that has stood out to me ........
> ...



I’m more inclined to think the opposite is true; this isn’t being exaggerated, it’s being dismissed and/or suppressed - big players in the marketplace don’t want to talk about it or admit it. This is about the only place where the disease is being discussed openly.

Yes, almost all sulcata hatchlings die in the first year or so, but rarely from infectious disease (unless it’s secondary to poor care, e.g. respiratory infections due to being too cold, etc.).

Sure it’s possible this has been around longer than we’ve realized, but that doesn’t mean it hasn’t become a fairly big crisis recently…


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## Cayleh (Sep 1, 2022)

elissaszoo said:


> I was at the Daytona show and did not see him there and I don't see him listed in the vendor list. Where was his booth if you don't mind me asking? I did both rooms several times both days. Thanks.


He did not have his own booth. He was at a friends booth. It was in the middle of the big room. The sign simply said "Tortoises" and it was next to a booth selling all sorts of massive cork barks.


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## Cayleh (Sep 1, 2022)

mark1 said:


> probably your post deserves an answer ........... i've had one interaction with the kenun guy , not a fan , one interaction was all i needed ..........
> 
> for someone to join and post this accusation the same day is certainly indicative of a pissed off individual .......hopefully they come back with more info ........
> 
> ...


Gee, I apologize that I did not respond fast enough for you? Im a nurse who works 60+ hour work weeks, who took on a friend's dad as a private client helping him through end of life, this post was not my priority the last week. Not to mention the forum is NOT mobile friendly because I have an ad take up half my screen when Im on mobile, and I am not on a computer often.

And darn right I am mad about this situation. I bought 2 babies, only to have to almost immediately euthanize one of them. Anyone who WOULDN'T be upset at this, is not a person I want to deal with. And to top it off, multiple people have come forward with sick animals from the same guy and not gotten responses.


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## mark1 (Sep 2, 2022)

turtlesteve said:


> I’m more inclined to think the opposite is true; this isn’t being exaggerated, it’s being dismissed and/or suppressed - big players in the marketplace don’t want to talk about it or admit it. This is about the only place where the disease is being discussed openly.
> 
> Yes, almost all sulcata hatchlings die in the first year or so, but rarely from infectious disease (unless it’s secondary to poor care, e.g. respiratory infections due to being too cold, etc.).
> 
> Sure it’s possible this has been around longer than we’ve realized, but that doesn’t mean it hasn’t become a fairly big crisis recently…


if someone runs across a street and gets run over and killed by a car , i guess you would be correct in saying they died from running across a street .... when turtles or tortoises become immunocompromised, for whatever reason, they can and do harbor bacteria , parasites, viruses , and fungi that can be pathogenic and fatal .......... herpes virus is fairly common in tortoises , it can be asymptomatic in a "healthy" adult , until they become immunocompromised ...... herpes virus can be passed from the mother to the hatchlings through the nest or egg shells..... herpes virus is near 100% fatal to a hatchling tortoise ........ mycoplasma is another, a tortoise can be completely healthy and harbor mycoplasma bacteria , until they become immunocompromised .......university of florida within the last few years has published articles about a helicobacter bacteria that is killing gopher tortoises ...... i believe helicobacter is a bacteria that can be found in the gut of healthy animals , the fact it can also be a pathogen under the right circumstance , i believe such things are referred to as a pathobiants ......... i think it's also true if you run across a street and get run over by a car , you died from getting run over by a car ........

"it's only being talked about here" i think i could use that as an argument for my belief???????


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## mark1 (Sep 2, 2022)

Cayleh said:


> Gee, I apologize that I did not respond fast enough for you? Im a nurse who works 60+ hour work weeks, who took on a friend's dad as a private client helping him through end of life, this post was not my priority the last week. Not to mention the forum is NOT mobile friendly because I have an ad take up half my screen when Im on mobile, and I am not on a computer often.
> 
> And darn right I am mad about this situation. I bought 2 babies, only to have to almost immediately euthanize one of them. Anyone who WOULDN'T be upset at this, is not a person I want to deal with. And to top it off, multiple people have come forward with sick animals from the same guy and not gotten responses.


i actually never asked you a question to answer ????? hopefully the guy refunded your money ????? beyond that it's how we learn ....... these animals don't go from healthy to dead in a couple days .....


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## wellington (Sep 2, 2022)

mark1 said:


> if someone runs across a street and gets run over and killed by a car , i guess you would be correct in saying they died from running across a street .... when turtles or tortoises become immunocompromised, for whatever reason, they can and do harbor bacteria , parasites, viruses , and fungi that can be pathogenic and fatal .......... herpes virus is fairly common in tortoises , it can be asymptomatic in a "healthy" adult , until they become immunocompromised ...... herpes virus can be passed from the mother to the hatchlings through the nest or egg shells..... herpes virus is near 100% fatal to a hatchling tortoise ........ mycoplasma is another, a tortoise can be completely healthy and harbor mycoplasma bacteria , until they become immunocompromised .......university of florida within the last few years has published articles about a helicobacter bacteria that is killing gopher tortoises ...... i believe helicobacter is a bacteria that can be found in the gut of healthy animals , the fact it can also be a pathogen under the right circumstance , i believe such things are referred to as a pathobiants ......... i think it's also true if you run across a street and get run over by a car , you died from getting run over by a car ........
> 
> "it's only being talked about here" i think i could use that as an argument for my belief???????


I don't understand what you are saying with that last line? 
I take it as you think its gotta be a joke or not true if its talked about on this forum? 
Its obviously being talked about with what ever place mastershake is working with. Likely its talked about in other places that turtlesteve is not aware of, I would imagine. As for other tortoise forums, most are a joke or not active. Others are more into selling then proper care and concerns.


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## mark1 (Sep 3, 2022)

wellington said:


> I take it as you think its gotta be a joke or not true if its talked about on this forum?


that's an interesting leap of logic from my responses ....... 
if there were no useful information to be gained on this forum i wouldn't read it ????????? there are some very knowledgeable experienced members here to learn from ....... do i think there is incorrect info given on this forum ? obviously ........
if your tortoise or turtle actually gets austwickia it's no "joke" , the animal is most likely gonna die ........... did the op's 2nd tortoise also die ?

the only thing i've seen semi"recently" talked about in terms of austwickia is the diphtheria like toxin ........

in the paper written on the reclassification of austwickia 1995 , the three samples used were taken from a tortoise in 1980 , a turtle in 1982 , and a turtle in 1987 ........

i believe there are at least a few folks who deal in selling turtle and tortoises on here ?
i actually don't know of any other tortoise turtle forums , so i have no idea what they talk about ........
where have i looked to see who is talking about it ?
some of the places i've had access to , to look and see what's been/being "talked about" , * journal of comparative pathology , journal of wildlife disease , journal of herpetological medicine and surgery , journal of zoo and wildlife medicine , journal of herpetology , journal of small animal practice, journal of general and applied microbiology , international bulletin of bacteriological nomenclature and taxonomy , veterinary clinics of north america exotic animal practice, international zoo yearbook , african journal of ecology , journal of exotic pet medicine , zoo biology, oryx , biological conservation , studies of neotropical fauna and environment , journal of zoology , veterinary world , journal of comparative pathology , veterinary dermatology ....... *


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## wellington (Sep 3, 2022)

mark1 said:


> that's an interesting leap of logic from my responses .......
> if there were no useful information to be gained on this forum i wouldn't read it ????????? there are some very knowledgeable experienced members here to learn from ....... do i think there is incorrect info given on this forum ? obviously ........
> if your tortoise or turtle actually gets austwickia it's no "joke" , the animal is most likely gonna die ........... did the op's 2nd tortoise also die ?
> 
> ...


Thanks for clarifying. I was hoping I was reading your last line wrong.


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## Cathie G (Sep 4, 2022)

tortoise16 2003 said:


> It’s been about 11-12 months since the Greeks I sold to my buddy started showing symptoms of what could be AW and they are still doing fine he said 2 males died right after he revived them but the rest are doing fine around 4-5 I’ll check back with him to get another update. If it is AW and the tortoises are surviving with it could that be a good thing should those animals be send to the lab to be tested?


That's a really interesting question. I would at least want to know exactly what I'm dealing with first before I make any decisions. So yes to a diagnosis but the right way. Especially since they could be a carrier of aw. I'm not an expert to tell you how to do that but it just makes sense to me.


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## mike taylor (Sep 13, 2022)

Don't get me wrong not taking up for Kamp Keenan. I go t a lot of reptile shows. I watch people handle animals at one booth and move on to another with no hand washing in between. This could be the reason for a sick animal picked up at a show. I will not let people handle my animals at my house or anywhere else without washing their hands first. Most vendors don't care. I was at the show here in Conroe Texas this past weekend and a vender had a net put up so people couldn't openly handle his animals without hand sanitizer first. He also passed out gloves. That tells me he's trying to keep healthy animals for sell.


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## Cathie G (Sep 14, 2022)

mike taylor said:


> Don't get me wrong not taking up for Kamp Keenan. I go t a lot of reptile shows. I watch people handle animals at one booth and move on to another with no hand washing in between. This could be the reason for a sick animal picked up at a show. I will not let people handle my animals at my house or anywhere else without washing their hands first. Most vendors don't care. I was at the show here in Conroe Texas this past weekend and a vender had a net put up so people couldn't openly handle his animals without hand sanitizer first. He also passed out gloves. That tells me he's trying to keep healthy animals for sell.


Yes.


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## jcase (Sep 28, 2022)

I got ripped into a year ago on facebook by other "big names" "pros" and "old timers" when i publicly questioned his husbandry and biosecurity practices. "You dont know what its like to keep a lot of animals" ffs I had 1000+ reptiles at once in racks. I isolated by grouping, and washed hands and tools between each.


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## jcase (Sep 29, 2022)

Cayleh said:


> We honestly do not have a 100% guaranteed disgnosis yet. Basically they stated they are CONFIDENT its that, but until we can afford the biopsies, we are going with the assumption that it is. My husband did finally hear back from Kenan, who states he is having biopsies done. But we also spoke with a guy here on the forums, I BELIEVE its Mastershake just based on reading around here. But he said based on the pictures I sent him, he was pretty confident too. Yellow spots/lumps, peeling skin, missing claws. Plus vet found multiple signs of sepsis, like red lines and stuff on the shell of the one that we ended up euthanizing. Hopefully we can get a good spot here soon and afford to biopsy it. But the guy we currently have left, his larger spots have been like, part of his really bad peeling skin and have come off.


My son is a nurse, I know how hard ya'll work. Thank you for everything you do.

If you want to let me know the cost of the biopsy, (given i think they need to put the animal down to actually do the PCR test), I can probably cover the cost for you.

I'm absolutely sick of how breeders are behaving with AW and similar diseases. It is like they think, if we dont talk about it, it will go away.


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## jeannettep (Oct 9, 2022)

jcase said:


> I got ripped into a year ago on facebook by other "big names" "pros" and "old timers" when i publicly questioned his husbandry and biosecurity practices. "You dont know what its like to keep a lot of animals" ffs I had 1000+ reptiles at once in racks. I isolated by grouping, and washed hands and tools between each.


If they can't be sanitary, they should not be managing that many. Its hire help or downsize. Good for you to speak up! We manage a lot of various animals, on a ranch. Space is important for everyone. Yes I'd love to max the pastures with cattle. But I also know doing so causes a lot of issues and painful, expensive decisions. So I only maintain 75% capacity. This helps with sanitary conditions, pastures in a hard drought that are able to manage thru and bounce back. The financial side is that I didn't have to spend any money on feed, nor was I forced to sell any cattle. I still have plenty of grass, Thank goodness! Good management practices with tortoises, chickens, birds, wild animals, rodents, etc. Which reminds me I need to go to Taco Bell and get more mild sauce. Mice love it! All living creatures can have diseases and when people overload their area with too many and not enough space between them, it can cause diseases to jump from one species to another. That also means we have to manage the wild population as well... Because I manage birds, I've been tracking bird flu since the 90s and have a page in my own handbook for biosecurity. Now that it is across the US, everyone here at the ranch may think I take biosecurity too far, but I don't think anyone can take cleanliness too far. This disease I'm unfamiliar with, but I'm going to spend time reading more and very thankful that I got my tortoises from reputable people! Those familiar with this bacteria, is this so far an exotic trade disease or has it crossed to or from the wild population? If this crosses over to wild lizards or geckos, could be a massive problem of spreading. Sorry I get off on a tangent because it's been so hard to see people suffer from animal overload on land and seeing the result.


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## jcase (Oct 9, 2022)

jeannettep said:


> If they can't be sanitary, they should not be managing that many. Its hire help or downsize. Good for you to speak up! We manage a lot of various animals, on a ranch. Space is important for everyone. Yes I'd love to max the pastures with cattle. But I also know doing so causes a lot of issues and painful, expensive decisions. So I only maintain 75% capacity. This helps with sanitary conditions, pastures in a hard drought that are able to manage thru and bounce back. The financial side is that I didn't have to spend any money on feed, nor was I forced to sell any cattle. I still have plenty of grass, Thank goodness! Good management practices with tortoises, chickens, birds, wild animals, rodents, etc. Which reminds me I need to go to Taco Bell and get more mild sauce. Mice love it! All living creatures can have diseases and when people overload their area with too many and not enough space between them, it can cause diseases to jump from one species to another. That also means we have to manage the wild population as well... Because I manage birds, I've been tracking bird flu since the 90s and have a page in my own handbook for biosecurity. Now that it is across the US, everyone here at the ranch may think I take biosecurity too far, but I don't think anyone can take cleanliness too far. This disease I'm unfamiliar with, but I'm going to spend time reading more and very thankful that I got my tortoises from reputable people! Those familiar with this bacteria, is this so far an exotic trade disease or has it crossed to or from the wild population? If this crosses over to wild lizards or geckos, could be a massive problem of spreading. Sorry I get off on a tangent because it's been so hard to see people suffer from animal overload on land and seeing the result.


To the best of my knowledge, and im not the expert here at all, it was first identified in Australia. It has been found in reptiles, and birds. It has been identified in wild gopher tortoises ( see https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34780647/) and I'm told it has also been identified or suspected in wild desert tortoises.

Biosecurity isn't hard. Separate enclosures, nitrile gloves, sterilization, surgical scrub and moving from longest kept healthy individual to newest arrival. It only gets too hard when you go too far into animal hoarding that you can no longer properly care for them.

Unfortunately, I think a lot of youtuber animal keepers reach that point. New animals == views.


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## mark1 (Oct 9, 2022)

if i remember correctly , the only place it's been found on birds is their feet ........ it is known austwickia does not grow/do well in a lab at 37 centigrade , it does better at 27 centigrade ...... i don't believe a bird has ever been found to have an acute or fatal case of austwickia ? i would guess it is an adaption/evolution of dermatophilaceae bacteria (rain rot , mud fever) to live in ectotherms.......


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## jeannettep (Oct 9, 2022)

mark1 said:


> if i remember correctly , the only place it's been found on birds is their feet ........ it is known austwickia does not grow/do well in a lab at 37 centigrade , it does better at 27 centigrade ...... i don't believe a bird has ever been found to have an acute or fatal case of austwickia ? i would guess it is an adaption/evolution of dermatophilaceae bacteria (rain rot , mud fever) to live in ectotherms.......


It's really sad. I hope progress can be made quickly to get this under control.


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## ZEROPILOT (Oct 11, 2022)

jcase said:


> I got ripped into a year ago on facebook by other "big names" "pros" and "old timers" when i publicly questioned his husbandry and biosecurity practices. "You dont know what its like to keep a lot of animals" ffs I had 1000+ reptiles at once in racks. I isolated by grouping, and washed hands and tools between each.


That's a shame. But just from the tone of the replies, you clearly hit a nerve.
Most breeders are seriously compromised right now.
Your forward thinking could've helped them.


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## ZEROPILOT (Oct 11, 2022)

jeannettep said:


> It's really sad. I hope progress can be made quickly to get this under control.


Currently it seems to be growing and spreading rapidly


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## cdmay (Oct 11, 2022)

I must admit that I've never even heard of this disease before reading this thread. Sounds scary indeed but Mark1 does make a good point in that on the Internet such things can get exaggerated. Before you know it everyone is seeing the disease everywhere. Not downplaying the threat at all mind you and caution should ALWAYS be exercised when purchasing animals.

As for Kenan...he is YouTube entertainer and not a responsible reptile keeper. I doubt that any reputable, or long term keepers take him seriously, let alone have any respect for him. I've seen enough of his videos in which he obtains new (he's always getting 'new' stock it seems) animals that he simply dumps in with other resident animals. 
Do not confuse YouTube personality/popularity with knowledgeable/responsible reptile husbandry.


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## jcase (Oct 11, 2022)

cdmay said:


> I must admit that I've never even heard of this disease before reading this thread. Sounds scary indeed but Mark1 does make a good point in that on the Internet such things can get exaggerated. Before you know it everyone is seeing the disease everywhere.


Considering only scientifically confirmed (PCR) cases, we have it coast to coast in captivity and at least in the wild in some states. 

A zoo veterinarian i recently spoke to suspects it is being misdiagnosed as herpes in some cases as well.

Paranoia is a protective respond, and sometimes it is warranted.


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## Cathie G (Oct 11, 2022)

jcase said:


> Considering only scientifically confirmed (PCR) cases, we have it coast to coast in captivity and at least in the wild in some states.
> 
> A zoo veterinarian i recently spoke to suspects it is being misdiagnosed as herpes in some cases as well.
> 
> Paranoia is a protective respond, and sometimes it is warranted.


Yes and also proactive. Animals are notorious for trying to just keep on carrying on until they can't. So quarantine is almost always the best when you bring home a new animal.


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## ZEROPILOT (Oct 11, 2022)

I know personally one actual breeder and another person that owns a retail store selling tortoises here in south Florida.
One has already seen/had cases. (And i cant confirm what he has done about it) One has not. And it seems like neither of them knew about this before the forum did.


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## ZEROPILOT (Oct 11, 2022)

Do not confuse YouTube personality/popularity with knowledgeable/responsible reptile husbandry.
I think that YouTube is pretty powerful. And being popular makes people trust you.
I fully agree with you. But I have people tell me about Kenan a lot when I mention thar I keep tortoises


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## Tom (Oct 11, 2022)

cdmay said:


> I must admit that I've never even heard of this disease before reading this thread. Sounds scary indeed but Mark1 does make a good point in that on the Internet such things can get exaggerated. Before you know it everyone is seeing the disease everywhere. Not downplaying the threat at all mind you and caution should ALWAYS be exercised when purchasing animals.
> 
> As for Kenan...he is YouTube entertainer and not a responsible reptile keeper. I doubt that any reputable, or long term keepers take him seriously, let alone have any respect for him. I've seen enough of his videos in which he obtains new (he's always getting 'new' stock it seems) animals that he simply dumps in with other resident animals.
> Do not confuse YouTube personality/popularity with knowledgeable/responsible reptile husbandry.


Hi Carl! Long time no see!

Unfortunately, this Austwikia is the real deal. Not an exaggeration and appears to be popping up everywhere. It is truly a disastrous epidemic right now, and its not clear how it is going to end.

You are dead right about Kenan and that is an eloquent way to word it all. I keep trying to explain this to people, but your explanation is far superior. I'm going to "borrow" your words here going forward.


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## Cathie G (Oct 11, 2022)

Cathie G said:


> Yes and also proactive. Animals are notorious for trying to just keep on carrying on until they can't. So quarantine is almost always the best when you bring home a new animal.


I amend my statement that it's almost always better to it's always best to quarantine a new animal. Another reason is a jetlagged poor little critter. A bit of time to destress.


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## mark1 (Oct 11, 2022)

is it being seen in turtles and lizards ?


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## Tom (Oct 11, 2022)

mark1 said:


> is it being seen in turtles and lizards ?


Yes. Confirmed cases. Snakes too.


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## mark1 (Oct 11, 2022)

wh


Tom said:


> Yes. Confirmed cases. Snakes too.


what type of turtles ? snakes? lizards ? i'd be interested in who is seeing/confirming this ?


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## Tom (Oct 11, 2022)

mark1 said:


> wh
> 
> what type of turtles ? snakes? lizards ? i'd be interested in who is seeing/confirming this ?


Talk to @mastershake He has all the details and specific cases.

He's been tracking this thing for years. I've talked to him on the phone several times about it, and I've also talked personally to the most recent and obvious "patient zero" in AZ. I'm sure this was around before patient zero in AZ, but we tracked it all back to him two years ago. I did see a reference of a case from 10-12 years ago, which is likely where the more recent AZ guy got it.


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## jcase (Oct 11, 2022)

mark1 said:


> wh
> 
> what type of turtles ? snakes? lizards ? i'd be interested in who is seeing/confirming this ?


It was first discovered in an Australian turtle some Elseya sp iirc.

It's been found in crocodile lizards, Agamid lizards, Uromastyx


I'm sure others too, these are what I recall in a half asleep state. All came from white papers I've read.


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## mark1 (Oct 11, 2022)

i do know all that ...... this is not new to me ....... i told mastershake what it was before he ever told me or any of you , it's on this board ....... reptile/animal diseases have been a hobby of mine forever .......


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## jcase (Oct 11, 2022)

mark1 said:


> i do know all that ...... this is not new to me ....... i told mastershake what it was before he ever told me or any of you , it's on this board ....... reptile/animal diseases have been a hobby of mine forever .......


I was just answering a question asked


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## mark1 (Oct 11, 2022)

jcase said:


> I was just answering a question asked


i understand , all those cases are old , some date back to the 1980's .......... i'm interested in new turtle , snake, lizard outbreaks ......


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## jcase (Oct 11, 2022)

mark1 said:


> i understand , all those cases are old , some date back to the 1980's .......... i'm interested in new turtle , snake, lizard outbreaks ......


I'm only aware of any in turtles (specifically tortoises) recently but Im not in the know. There is no real attention to it, even most vets don't know to look, and people don't want to openly discuss it when people have outbreaks, so I'm not surprised not much is being heard.


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## ZEROPILOT (Oct 11, 2022)

I wonder if south Florida's feral population of green iguanas contracted it, they'd spread it like wildfire.
There are absolutely millions of iguanas everywhere here.


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## wellington (Oct 12, 2022)

mark1 said:


> i do know all that ...... this is not new to me ....... i told mastershake what it was before he ever told me or any of you , it's on this board ....... reptile/animal diseases have been a hobby of mine forever .......


Wondering why you didnt bring it too everyone's attention? Seems to important to have not shared what it was and what it looked like in tortoises.


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## jcase (Oct 12, 2022)

wellington said:


> Wondering why you didnt bring it too everyone's attention? Seems to important to have not shared what it was and what it looked like in tortoises.


It has been around for a LONG time, without wide spread impact. There are many other diseases out there that are deadly too without much attention brought to them. It didnt appear to warrant it until it started to spread more.


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## wellington (Oct 12, 2022)

jcase said:


> It has been around for a LONG time, without wide spread impact. There are many other diseases out there that are deadly too without much attention brought to them. It didnt appear to warrant it until it started to spread more.


Well that's real stupid. Early detection and attention usually equals a smaller outbreak. "Usually" if breeders are honest and willing to do the work to not spread it along.


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## jcase (Oct 12, 2022)

wellington said:


> Well that's real stupid. Early detection and attention usually equals a smaller outbreak. "Usually" if breeders are honest and willing to do the work to not spread it along.


I'm unaware of any way to do early detection on austwickia (but im no expert).

I agree, its being spread because some people don't care.


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## wellington (Oct 12, 2022)

jcase said:


> I'm unaware of any way to do early detection on austwickia (but im no expert).
> 
> I agree, its being spread because some people don't care.


I have no idea if there is an early detection. However, seeing it's been around and known about for years, the first time it was detected in tortoises it should have been on red alert. Obviously at that point, if not before, it was known to be able to spread to other species.


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## jcase (Oct 12, 2022)

wellington said:


> I have no idea if there is an early detection. However, seeing it's been around and known about for years, the first time it was detected in tortoises it should have been on red alert. Obviously at that point, if not before, it was known to be able to spread to other species.


There are a ton diseases in reptiles that are worth a concern. I had cryptosporidium 20ish years ago (thankfully contained due to proper biosecurity procedures), there is herpes which is all too common in tortoises, and dozens of others. The only reason austwicka is worth extra concern right now is because it appears to have an active outbreak that is going unmitigated, primarily in an often abused, released, abandoned, plentiful and cheap species that happens to be a beginner's favorite. Otherwise, it should sit with the rest of them. If people, breeders and keepers, acted responsibility, practiced good quarantine and biosecurity procedures then it wouldn't be that big of an issue.


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## mark1 (Oct 12, 2022)

wellington said:


> Wondering why you didnt bring it too everyone's attention? Seems to important to have not shared what it was and what it looked like in tortoises.


here's some virus types all have been found in turtles and tortoises , all contagious and deadly , iridoviradae , flaviviridae , togaviridae , flaviviridae, iridoviridae, adenoviridae, herpesviridae, papillomaviridae, poxviridae, circoviridae, retroviridae, paramyxoviridae, rhabdoviridae, bunyaviridae, picornaviridae...........add to that the numerous types of bacteria found in tortoises and turtles ..... i'm a realist .......


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## mike taylor (Oct 26, 2022)

This is why you QT every new animal into your collection. No animals go anywhere near my animals without quarantine. You have to wash hands and tools between enclosures. Only after a quarantine and a vet check does the animals join my group. When buying animals from shows watch how they are handling them. If you see them just handing them from one person to another move on. They're only there to make money flipping animals they probably got off someone else. Ideally if you go to enough shows you learn whom to buy from and whatnot. I haven't seen any case's of this happening here in Houston yet. I got my yellow footed tortoise a year or so ago and it still hasn't been put out in the tortoise shed. Just to give you an idea of how long to wait. It has a clean bill of health but until I put together a good enclosure in my yard it will stay in quarantine. Of course it's still to small for an outdoor setup, but it still isn't around any of my long term animals. Things like giardia will cost you big bucks to get your tortoise over and that's mostly from nasty water. So house keeping for the keeper is a must.


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## Cathie G (Oct 26, 2022)

wellington said:


> Wondering why you didnt bring it too everyone's attention? Seems to important to have not shared what it was and what it looked like in tortoises.


Some subjects are kind of off limits because none of us want to scare new and young members half to death with all the concerns. When the truth is Good hygiene is the best when caring for any animal including your children . I wash my hands after petting my cat, rabbit, etc and cutting up and cooking chicken for dinner.


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## wellington (Oct 27, 2022)

Cathie G said:


> Some subjects are kind of off limits because none of us want to scare new and young members half to death with all the concerns. When the truth is Good hygiene is the best when caring for any animal including your children . I wash my hands after petting my cat, rabbit, etc and cutting up and cooking chicken for dinner.


Not quite sure what you are answering/responding too here. My post you quoted was about the disease not hygiene or quarantine. 
However, good hygiene is if course a good thing but over doing it can be bad. I know a few families that are not the cleanest when it comes to their homes but are overly clean with themselves and using antibacterial soaps etc and they are always sick. Myself as a tom boy when I was a kind, barely washed my hands when out playing and was never sick same with my son. Happy medium is the key in my opinion.


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## jcase (Oct 27, 2022)

wellington said:


> Not quite sure what you are answering/responding too here. My post you quoted was about the disease not hygiene or quarantine.
> However, good hygiene is if course a good thing but over doing it can be bad. I know a few families that are not the cleanest when it comes to their homes but are overly clean with themselves and using antibacterial soaps etc and they are always sick. Myself as a tom boy when I was a kind, barely washed my hands when out playing and was never sick same with my son. Happy medium is the key in my opinion.


LTTFA (leave them the f alone) is a care technique that works wonderfully with some species, and I believe it is the reason some species struggle in the hands of some keepers.


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## jsheffield (Oct 27, 2022)

I believe that all animals, tortoises and humans included, carry around a legion of parasites and maladies most of the time... my thinking is that many of these are opportunistic and only emerge or amplify when the host is living under stress or poor conditions or diet.

I have no reason to believe that this is the case with Austwickia, but think it's always worth considering when some members of a population are afflicted and others are not.

Jamie


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## jcase (Oct 27, 2022)

jsheffield said:


> I believe that all animals, tortoises and humans included, carry around a legion of parasites and maladies most of the time... my thinking is that many of these are opportunistic and only emerge or amplify when the host is stressed by stress or poor living conditions or diet.
> 
> I have no reason to believe that this is the case with Austwickia, but think it's always worth considering when some members of a population are afflicted and others are not.
> 
> Jamie


Part of LTTFA is the idea that for some species, being kept too sterile allows naturally carried and controlled parasites/bacteria/fungus to go on raging benders when whatever keeps them in check is suppressed by being kept overly sterile (eg opportunistic). I had a former zoo keeper who has worked with Cuora zhoui express similar thoughts contributing to the struggles with that species stateside.

(and likely your statement, i dont think this is the case with austwickia).


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## Cathie G (Oct 27, 2022)

wellington said:


> Not quite sure what you are answering/responding too here. My post you quoted was about the disease not hygiene or quarantine.
> However, good hygiene is if course a good thing but over doing it can be bad. I know a few families that are not the cleanest when it comes to their homes but are overly clean with themselves and using antibacterial soaps etc and they are always sick. Myself as a tom boy when I was a kind, barely washed my hands when out playing and was never sick same with my son. Happy medium is the key in my opinion.


I always kind of hesitate to go into for example the herpes virus and other things like salmonella. I think a lot of us hesitate saying anything because of the newer people just joining. Other issues also can be like that too. I'm usually afraid I'll give a new tortoise parent the wrong idea so I don't. And I don't think I'm the only one that does that.


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## wellington (Oct 27, 2022)

Cathie G said:


> I always kind of hesitate to go into for example the herpes virus and other things like salmonella. I think a lot of us hesitate saying anything because of the newer people just joining. Other issues also can be like that too. I'm usually afraid I'll give a new tortoise parent the wrong idea so I don't. And I don't think I'm the only one that does that.


But it's more helpful for anyone new or not to know everything possible. I'd rather I or them know what we are getting into. Specially newbies who may not have a tortoise yet. It might help in their decision of what species or whether they even want to get a tortoise.
I wouldn't buy a breed of dog without knowing everything possible about the breed. I also would not want to get into a species of animal I'm not familiar with, without doing research. I'd rather scare someone with the truth then keep it from them. Then they can make a better informed decision.


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## Cathie G (Oct 27, 2022)

wellington said:


> But it's more helpful for anyone new or not to know everything possible. I'd rather I or them know what we are getting into. Specially newbies who may not have a tortoise yet. It might help in their decision of what species or whether they even want to get a tortoise.
> I wouldn't buy a breed of dog without knowing everything possible about the breed. I also would not want to get into a species of animal I'm not familiar with, without doing research. I'd rather scare someone with the truth then keep it from them. Then they can make a better informed decision.


Yes all that. But I usually wait for longtime members to answer just in case I don't say it right. I really appreciate, love and learn from their feedback. And especially since I still don't know how to share the links. I know I'm not the only one that does that. Sometimes I just try to offer support to let them know we are here. And the only real thing I can do is offer my little bit of experience.


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