# Adding non-native species to the ESA hampers preservation of the species



## jcase (Dec 4, 2021)

USFWS is adding more non native species, including the egyption tortoise, to the ESA list. https://usark.org/2021-esa-kleinman...7u8JjRDlfNmAMcOiw4z1WoluODI3fc9QaV_rGTTa-2s-0

Adding non-native species (like the egyption tortoise) hampers preservation of the species.

It lessens the drive to captive breed them to a degree. Why produce so many, if its more difficult to legally get rid of them. Look at hamiltonii in states with a big population, some people are stuck with so many extras that I've seen them for $25.

It makes maintaining or increasing genetic diversity harder. I'm stuck with 4 unrelated radiata, no one I know of breeds them in my state, and with the current climate in USFWS I have no hope of getting a CBW permit.

We have CITES, the Lacey act and other laws that actually do more to protect non-natives.

Native species I can understand and even agree with. Non natives are not at risk of poaching, as they just don't exist in the wild here.


----------



## ZenHerper (Dec 4, 2021)

Yer preachin' to the choir.

Bureaucrats gotta stuff the bureaus with...crat.


----------



## jcase (Dec 4, 2021)

ZenHerper said:


> Yer preachin' to the choir.
> 
> Bureaucrats gotta stuff the bureaus with...crat.


Yeah, I know i mostly am, I do know there are some in our crowd that don't simply understand what ESA listing can do. I could name a few species I think should be added, I could even muster some non natives. I can also name a lot more that have no reason to be on it (cough radiata cough, jeez cant a man just get a few more radiata without having to move to a state lacking in proper BBQ, is that too much to ask)


----------



## Tom (Dec 4, 2021)

Our not-so-benevolent overlords who appoint the people making these policies and laws, without us ever voting on it, don't see it the way you see it. Their goal is not to protect wildlife or help species. Their goal is to control and restrict YOU. This fact is the reason their policies don't make sense to you, and there is NOTHING you can do about it. Go ahead and hire a lawyer. Petition them. Complain to your friends and family. Contact your elected officials. You will get nowhere.

You didn't elect these people. You didn't vote on the policies and laws they are currently enforcing upon you, with deadly force if necessary. You have no recourse to change these policies and laws that have been foisted upon you, and if you dare to even think about defying the edicts of your masters, they will unleash holy hell on you, destroying the life you've built, imprisoning you, and/or killing you if you try to resist.

Freedom is a fantasy and we are living in a dictatorship. We only do what they see fit to allow us to do, and they can take away our fun anytime it suits them. Welcome to the new America.


----------



## jcase (Dec 4, 2021)

Tom said:


> Our not-so-benevolent overlords who appoint the people making these policies and laws, without us ever voting on it, don't see it the way you see it. Their goal is not to protect wildlife or help species. Their goal is to control and restrict YOU. This fact is the reason their policies don't make sense to you, and there is NOTHING you can do about it. Go ahead and hire a lawyer. Petition them. Complain to your friends and family. Contact your elected officials. You will get nowhere.
> 
> You didn't elect these people. You didn't vote on the policies and laws they are currently enforcing upon you, with deadly force if necessary. You have no recourse to change these policies and laws that have been foisted upon you, and if you dare to even think about defying the edicts of your masters, they will unleash holy hell on you, destroying the life you've built, imprisoning you, and/or killing you if you try to resist.
> 
> Freedom is a fantasy and we are living in a dictatorship. We only do what they see fit to allow us to do, and they can take away our fun anytime it suits them. Welcome to the new America.


yep, one reason i am trying to obtain Pyxis now is because we have been hearing ages that they would be added. I wasn't exactly expecting Alligator snappers, heck even Egyptians were not immediately on my radar. Most shocking is the rumors of platynota beging discussed. I'll be stuck if they get added, no way I can get rid of potential offspring of my herd in NC alone. If they get added, I just won't be allowing males in with most of the females.


----------



## TeamZissou (Dec 4, 2021)

Feel free to throw a comment into the void:



https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2021/11/09/2021-23839/endangered-and-threatened-wildlife-and-plants-threatened-species-status-with-section-4d-rule-for



The people posting the pro-listing comments seem to think that this will somehow protect them in their home range. 

Here's another thread about this:






Ban on interstate trade with Egyptian tortoises?


I was unable to go to TTPG this year, but I heard there was information regarding listing Egyptian tortoises as endangered, effectively destroying interstate buying/selling unless both parties lived in the same state or had CBW permits. Is this true? If so, what an incredibly terrible piece of...




tortoiseforum.org


----------



## unlikelyrussian (Dec 21, 2021)

Hi there,
This is under "debatable topics" but there doesn't seem to be much debate....
As someone who took on a tortoise by accident and is not involved in breeding tortoises, I am inclined to support adding non-native species to the ESA to add additional regulation to their trade. Here are my reasons:
(1) If non-native endangered species can be sold interstate without any regulation, that makes it a lot harder for a buyer to know if a tortoise comes from a responsible captive breeder or the wild. Unregulated trade provides "cover" for people who are sourcing the species irresponsibly. "Oh yeah, I bought this from a breeder I know....." These animals live for decades, who can say where it came from after ten years have gone by?
(2) People can obtain a permit. If it is too difficult to obtain a permit, that is a separate issue. But if the mere fact of having to obtain a permit makes people less likely to want a certain tortoise species...then that is the process working as it should to reduce demand for an endangered species. It sucks if you want to sell or buy that species but that is an impact on a relatively small number of people who have other choices. 
(3) Captive breeding, in insolation, does not help to save the species in any way that is meaningful, if the additional numbers of the species are never able to be reintroduced back into the native environment. I don't really buy that captive breeding as a hobby will help save a species, especially if people involved in producing tortoises for that purpose are opposing other conservation measures that might help keep wild tortoises in the wild. 
I get that this is a business/serious hobby for some folks, and I get that some people don't like government regulation. But I am frankly shocked that my Russian tortoise, that I got pretty much by accident was, at one point, wandering around in the wild (!) and ended up being sold at a pet shop in the United States. That seems very wrong. To the extent that endangered tortoises originate in places of the world that often do not have functioning governments (I know some will say the US doesn't either, but come on...you know what I mean!), it is not unreasonable for conservation officials here to do whatever they can within their powers. If people were stripping wild, endangered native U. S. turtles out of Virginia or Kentucky, and selling them in some far-off country for a profit, I would think it was morally imperative for that country's conservation officials to do what they could to stop it.
Anyway, that is my two cents. I never thought I'd be a tortoise caretaker but here I am. I just thought I'd add a comment since this is the "debatable" topics forum; I know most people here will not agree with me. I do appreciate all your expertise and wisdom you have shared on this site, I just can't get behind opposing efforts to stop the trade in endangered tortoises.


----------



## jcase (Dec 21, 2021)

unlikelyrussian said:


> Hi there,
> This is under "debatable topics" but there doesn't seem to be much debate....



I appreciate your post, exactly what I was looking for.

Counter debate:
1) With USFWS not issuing CBW permits for private individuals (see point 2), there is near no regulation to sales period for those without CBW permits. Since I don't have a permit, I could sell my radiated tortoises right now, as long as I believe they are NC residents. No requirement for me to confirm, nor report. I could also give them away to anyone in any state without any reporting. I don't even have to tell the person I give them to (to be clear, these are already willed to my kids) where they came from, nor tell the government I gave them to you, simply because they won't issue private people permits right now.

2) I would love to hear about a private non AZA/similar affiliated person getting a new CBW permit in the last year or so (not a renewal extension pending review, given i hear those are eventually being denied as well). If "too difficult" means zero private individuals can get one, that is the same as the permit not being obtainable at all by private individuals

3) Agreed mostly, which is exactly why I'm against adding non native species. Adding non native species, which are already protected by Lacey act, CITES and other more meaningful laws, creates artificial isolation. Additionally, there are species that simply don't exist in the wild anymore, and have no suitable habitat to return to (cuora aurocapitata, which isn't ESA listed, and shouldnt be simply because it can not possibly be poached). 

There is also a stark difference in an endangered species, and a species on the ESA list. My cyclornata is far more endangered than my radiata. Radiated number >10,000 legal specimens in the US alone, cyclornata? less than 100 non-integrade/hybrids. Radiated 6.5million in the wild, none of the cyclornata subspecies likely have a functional population.


----------



## TheLastGreen (Dec 21, 2021)

jcase said:


> It makes maintaining or increasing genetic diversity harder. I'm stuck with 4 unrelated radiata, no one I know of breeds them in my state, and with the current climate in USFWS I have no hope of getting a CBW permit.


Now imagine being in the country with the most species of tortoises in the world, 14 to be exact, how many can you own? 0
I understand that they want to help, but hell, you can't even create an organisation to look after and breed torts. 
Removing an individual from it's environment is devastating to the gene pool and removes vast amounts of genetic variation, but what caused the problem? Humans. What is the solution? Humans. I see the kinixys cooperative and daily they have new clutches of eggs. They responsibly control the breeding of the torts, and strengthen the gene pool. It will take time, but the effects are exponential.
In SA we have geos (P. geometricus) few thousands of the population live in a single valley, and currently, the conservation efforts are going good... but I think it could go stellar if people had a more active role to help them. (This is an understatement, large parts of their diet is unknown or difficult to source, which hampers captive care if it doesn't take place in native areas).
I do understand the concerns of people releasing torts with illnesses, but some people breed baby torts and release them. I'm not sure if they could be contaminated, but still, they do release them and the effect on native populations is unkown or varying, but currently nothing has been found, to my knowledge


----------



## Maggie3fan (Dec 21, 2021)

This is what I have seen happen in the PNW...there are 2 turtles native to Oregon and Washington the Western Pond turtle and the Western Painted turtle. Both shy reclusive sweet turtles. Then along comes the popularity of the red eared slider they get too big and they are thrown in a creek somewhere to breed and grow...an aggressive nasty turtle who can live anywhere and seem to propagate like rabbits. Now both of the Western turtles are endangered or threatened because released RES have taken over the West like crazy. It is illegal to keep RES in Oregon...and it is illegal to take the Western turtles from the wild. It's supposed to be illegal to keep them as well...but I know people who keep them here and no DFG ever knocked on a private keepers door. There is also Gopherus agassizii...Illegal to take out of California...do they stop ya at the border to check when you leave? I'm no expert but why have those laws and rules if they cannot be enforced?
oh and as for people releasing sick animals??? The population of California desert tortoises in the Mojave sickened and wiped out...given a highly contagious disease ...
Most research of upper respiratory tract disease (mycoplasmal URTD) in the threatened Mojave Desert tortoise (Gopherus agassizii) has worked under the hypothesis that the pathogen, Mycoplasma agassizii, has a relatively consistent and predictable effect on tortoise populations across their natural range...kills'em


----------



## jcase (Dec 21, 2021)

TheLastGreen said:


> In SA we have geos (P. geometricus) few thousands of the population live in a single valley, and currently, the conservation efforts are going good... but I think it could go stellar if people had a more active role to help them. (This is an understatement, large parts of their diet is unknown or difficult to source, which hampers captive care if it doesn't take place in native areas).


I could be speaking out the side of my neck, as I simply dont know and I'm only repeating what I've read. But from what I hear geometricus are simply exceedingly difficult to keep in captivity, am I correct?


----------



## TheLastGreen (Dec 21, 2021)

jcase said:


> I could be speaking out the side of my neck, as I simply dont know and I'm only repeating what I've read. But from what I hear geometricus are simply exceedingly difficult to keep in captivity, am I correct?


You are right. I feel that it isn't impossible to keep torts in captivity, you need a lot of research to know exactly what a tort needs, and I feel that, that is exactly what the torts need, humans need to step in and fix their mistake. Current populations are doing ok, but along the line, human efforts to take a more active role in their conservation, with needed research, would benefit the species


----------



## TammyJ (Dec 21, 2021)

Tom said:


> Our not-so-benevolent overlords who appoint the people making these policies and laws, without us ever voting on it, don't see it the way you see it. Their goal is not to protect wildlife or help species. Their goal is to control and restrict YOU. This fact is the reason their policies don't make sense to you, and there is NOTHING you can do about it. Go ahead and hire a lawyer. Petition them. Complain to your friends and family. Contact your elected officials. You will get nowhere.
> 
> You didn't elect these people. You didn't vote on the policies and laws they are currently enforcing upon you, with deadly force if necessary. You have no recourse to change these policies and laws that have been foisted upon you, and if you dare to even think about defying the edicts of your masters, they will unleash holy hell on you, destroying the life you've built, imprisoning you, and/or killing you if you try to resist.
> 
> Freedom is a fantasy and we are living in a dictatorship. We only do what they see fit to allow us to do, and they can take away our fun anytime it suits them. Welcome to the new America.


Wow, this is "heavy stuff", Tom. But I know what you are talking about. I guess we also suffer from that sort of thing here in Jamaica too. Small pond, small fish, but a few Big Fish ruling over it all. I can't enjoy a trip even to the pet shops here any more. All the interesting critters are illegal, for no earthly reason except that someone decided to make it so. Frustrating. That's my view of the situation here anyway. And I am not agreeing with the importation of sale of endangered species as such, but there are good reasons, such as conservation in captivity that works, to allow intelligent and concerned people to keep and breed certain species....etc. etc.


----------



## TammyJ (Dec 21, 2021)

TammyJ said:


> Wow, this is "heavy stuff", Tom. But I know what you are talking about. I guess we also suffer from that sort of thing here in Jamaica too. Small pond, small fish, but a few Big Fish ruling over it all. I can't enjoy a trip even to the pet shops here any more. All the interesting critters are illegal, for no earthly reason except that someone decided to make it so. Frustrating. That's my view of the situation here anyway. And I am not agreeing with the importation of sale of endangered species as such, but there are good reasons, such as conservation in captivity that works, to allow intelligent and concerned people to keep and breed certain species....etc. etc.


Tammy, what are you doing here in this debate forum??? Mind now, you remember your place and don't get above yourself.


----------



## jcase (Dec 21, 2021)

TammyJ said:


> Tammy, what are you doing here in this debate forum??? Mind now, you remember your place and don't get above yourself.


They say talking to your self is ok, it is when you start answering yourself that you have to worry


----------



## Tom (Dec 21, 2021)

unlikelyrussian said:


> Hi there,
> This is under "debatable topics" but there doesn't seem to be much debate....
> As someone who took on a tortoise by accident and is not involved in breeding tortoises, I am inclined to support adding non-native species to the ESA to add additional regulation to their trade. Here are my reasons:
> (1) If non-native endangered species can be sold interstate without any regulation, that makes it a lot harder for a buyer to know if a tortoise comes from a responsible captive breeder or the wild. Unregulated trade provides "cover" for people who are sourcing the species irresponsibly. "Oh yeah, I bought this from a breeder I know....." These animals live for decades, who can say where it came from after ten years have gone by?
> ...


Your comments are well articulated, but based completely on ignorance of the situation and emotion. I will elaborate on what I mean for each of your points. Through debate, we end ignorance. Hopefully.

1. Illegally moving animals internationally, even non-endangered domestic animals, is EXCEEDINGLY difficult. Remember the Jonny Depp dog incident in Australia a few years ago? You can't just throw some endangered torts in your luggage and hop on a plane. It simply does not work that way. I used to work for a tropical fish importer years ago. Our shipments were always inspected by the government. No way to get anything illegal in. The penalties are stiff and the government overwatch worldwide is unimaginable. Illegal smuggling can and does still happen, but those numbers are minimal, and most of that is going into the Chinese markets, not the American pet trade. It is not practical to go to that trouble, risk, and expense, when a much healthier, much more suitable animal is being domestically bred and is easily available. The financial incentive alone, not even counting love and passion for a given species, is enough to get private breeders investing the time effort and money to breed any species that there is demand for. Why buy a sickly, mal-adapted, wild caught import, legal or not, when you can instead readily buy a healthy, well-adapted to captive life, baby from a reputable breeder? It makes no sense, and people don't do it that way when they have a choice. Make the trade of legal captive bred species illegal, and you create a black market, while harming the species as a whole. There are already many international laws in place to curtail illegal poaching and smuggling. No need to restrict captive bred animals that were legally imported into this country decades ago. This helps no one and does nothing to protect species in the wild elsewhere in the world. We are talking about all CB animals being bought and sold here. No one in America is dealing with illegally smuggled endangered chelonians, and that is the only thing the ESA would address. Americans in America. 
2. People CANNOT obtain a permit. You are mistaken. This cannot be discussed without things getting political, and we don't do politics here on TFO for good reason. There is a leftist takeover of our government and country underway. Its been underway for decades, and they are winning. Animal rightists with an agenda have been infiltrating and working their way up through the government ranks for decades. 25 years ago I saw a PETA add saying they would pay for your schooling, all the way through a doctorate degree, and then help you get a job in a position to push their agenda. A few years ago, a new person was appointed (not elected) to the position that used to give out CBW permits. This person refused to renew long standing permits from reputable breeders across the country and refused to grant any new permits. After years of stonewalling, this person released a public statement to the effect of: (paraphrasing here) Private breeders do not contribute to species conservation in any way. As a result of this belief, permits will now only be granted to legitimate AZA facilities. In reality, the opposite is true. For a wide variety of reasons, Zoos have largely failed at captive propagation of many endangered species, while private breeders have largely succeeded. So what we have now is a situation where any listed species are landlocked in their own state. No longer can conscientious breeders freely buy and sell their animals in order to maintain good genetic diversity in our captive populations, and get prospective new breeders started with a good mix of unrelated genetics. This is stupid and counter productive. ALSO, allowing breeding and free trade of these obviously captive bred animals, completely eliminates any sort of black market and the necessity to do anything illegal. Why risk prison and fines when you can just go buy what you want legally. See the war on drugs for a shining example of this concept.
3. What is "captive breeding in isolation"? The likelihood of any of my animals ever returning to the wild is slim, I will grant you that without argument, but I still take comfort in knowing that the option is there due to assurance colonies around the world. I would be completely on board if someone, or some group, wanted to buy my eggs or babies, properly quarantine and test them, and rerelease them into the wild after proper acclimation and protocols were observed. How cool would that be? While unlikely and largely unnecessary since they can usually be found captive bred in their country of origin, it is still possible because of my efforts. Restricting my efforts does not help anyone or any species.

Putting non-native species on the ESA list does nothing to help conservation efforts in other countries. It only hurts the species and people trying to work with the species here in America.

Why does wild collection of reptiles, or other animals seem "wrong" to you? There is nothing wrong with taking a sustainable numbers of animals from the wild and in some cases it can be detrimental to not take some. Ducks, deer, wild/feral pigs, rabbits, etc... There is nothing wrong with collecting a limited number of wild tortoises and shipping them around the world for the pet trade, as long as we aren't stripping the wild of them. Local environmental damage is far worse than pet trade collection in most cases anyway. We are literally rescuing some of the animals from some areas because their areas are being destroyed. Without some limited wild collection, there couldn't be a pet trade. Is that what you are advocating? No pet trade? In order to sell CB babies to the public, founder animals have had to come from somewhere. That is not wrong. Don't fall for the leftist narrative.

No one is opposing laws to prevent over collection of any of our native species here in America. What we are opposing is pointless freedom crushing laws that do nothing to help a non-native species, and in fact do harm over the long term. Me breeding CB babies here in America has nothing to do with the damage that is being done to these species in these other parts of the world. If anything, my efforts help the non-native endangered species in many ways: Assurance colonies with diverse genetics whose origins are all CB imports is a win anyway you look at it. Lots of readily available CB babies that can be legally purchased completely destroys the black market and removes any incentive to poach or other wise illegally remove these animals from their native range. People protect what they love. People love what they know. More babies being moved into more hands means more people will get to know and love these species, which very well could lead to increased conservation efforts back in the native range.

We need to get back to the freedoms that made this country great in the first place. Wildlife laws should make sense. This doesn't. It only makes sense if your goal is to destroy the private ownership of these animals.


----------



## Tom (Dec 21, 2021)

maggie3fan said:


> This is what I have seen happen in the PNW...there are 2 turtles native to Oregon and Washington the Western Pond turtle and the Western Painted turtle. Both shy reclusive sweet turtles. Then along comes the popularity of the red eared slider they get too big and they are thrown in a creek somewhere to breed and grow...an aggressive nasty turtle who can live anywhere and seem to propagate like rabbits. Now both of the Western turtles are endangered or threatened because released RES have taken over the West like crazy. It is illegal to keep RES in Oregon...and it is illegal to take the Western turtles from the wild. It's supposed to be illegal to keep them as well...but I know people who keep them here and no DFG ever knocked on a private keepers door. There is also Gopherus agassizii...Illegal to take out of California...do they stop ya at the border to check when you leave? I'm no expert but why have those laws and rules if they cannot be enforced?
> oh and as for people releasing sick animals??? The population of California desert tortoises in the Mojave sickened and wiped out...given a highly contagious disease ...
> Most research of upper respiratory tract disease (mycoplasmal URTD) in the threatened Mojave Desert tortoise (Gopherus agassizii) has worked under the hypothesis that the pathogen, Mycoplasma agassizii, has a relatively consistent and predictable effect on tortoise populations across their natural range...kills'em


I think that everyone reading this will agree that non-native animals should NEVER be released into the wild.


----------



## Tom (Dec 21, 2021)

TammyJ said:


> Wow, this is "heavy stuff", Tom. But I know what you are talking about. I guess we also suffer from that sort of thing here in Jamaica too. Small pond, small fish, but a few Big Fish ruling over it all. I can't enjoy a trip even to the pet shops here any more. All the interesting critters are illegal, for no earthly reason except that someone decided to make it so. Frustrating. That's my view of the situation here anyway. And I am not agreeing with the importation of sale of endangered species as such, but there are good reasons, such as conservation in captivity that works, to allow intelligent and concerned people to keep and breed certain species....etc. etc.


I can understand the logic behind restricting the import of potentially harmful non-native species, especially on an Island nation. I can't understand the logic of stopping legal commerce of CB non-native species in mainland USA that are already here and have been here for decades. I can understand restricting wild collection and exporting/importing endangered species. That makes perfect sense and we have lots of local, national and international laws to prevent that already.


----------



## mark1 (Dec 21, 2021)

unlikelyrussian said:


> If people were stripping wild, endangered native U. S. turtles out of Virginia or Kentucky, and selling them in some far-off country for a profit, I would think it was morally imperative for that country's conservation officials to do what they could to stop it.


that is exactly what is happening ....... state protection does nothing but make a species worth more money ....... you can get maybe 400 dollars for a "screamer" eastern box turtle in the states , in china i've been told you can get as much as $10,000 ........ a wood turtle 200-300 dollars in the states , 1000-2000 in china .......... i know two guys busted for smuggling poached turtles out of the country ...... hundreds of wood turtles went from pennsylvania to louisiana , then illinois and california then to china ........ box turtles from oklahoma to new jersey , to china 75 turtles $80,000 ........... blandings turtles , ohio to kentucky and then "fauna classifieds" for $1000 a pop ....... those are ones i personally know of ....... the only reason these folks got busted was they tried to get these turtles out of the country , for bigger money ........ triegle i believe pled guilty to selling $500,000 worth of wood turtles ...... if i remember correctly he was getting $500 a turtle , that's a lot of turtles ......

there was a study going on in pennsylvania of a population of wood turtle , the entire population disappeared from one year to the next ........

to have such shoddy regulations on native species and to make interstate trade on supposedly captive born/imported/ legally owned non-native species is ridiculous ....

cbb turtles and tortoises in the private sector will never be returned to the wild , but the more available they become within the hobby the lower the demand for wild caught will be ......

if you take michigan wood turtles to re-establish a pennsylvania population , did you save the pennsylvania population , or extirpate it .......

living on the same river for almost 60yrs , it's my observation there is no sustainable collection numbers of wild turtles , not snapping turtles , softshelled turtles , painted turtles , musk turtles , box turtles , wood turtles or blanding's turtles .......... it's just a matter of time before it becomes evident to everyone ...... there is a reason that turtles and tortoises have the highest percentage of threatened and endangered species of any order of animal on the planet .....


----------



## Tom (Dec 21, 2021)

mark1 said:


> that is exactly what is happening ....... state protection does nothing but make a species worth more money ....... you can get maybe 400 dollars for a "screamer" eastern box turtle in the states , in china i've been told you can get as much as $10,000 ........ a wood turtle 200-300 dollars in the states , 1000-2000 in china .......... i know two guys busted for smuggling poached turtles out of the country ...... hundreds of wood turtles went from pennsylvania to louisiana , then illinois and california then to china ........ box turtles from oklahoma to new jersey , to china 75 turtles $80,000 ........... blandings turtles , ohio to kentucky and then "fauna classifieds" for $1000 a pop ....... those are ones i personally know of ....... the only reason these folks got busted was they tried to get these turtles out of the country , for bigger money ........ triegle i believe pled guilty to selling $500,000 worth of wood turtles ...... if i remember correctly he was getting $500 a turtle , that's a lot of turtles ......
> 
> there was a study going on in pennsylvania of a population of wood turtle , the entire population disappeared from one year to the next ........
> 
> ...


You make some good points Mark. Thanks for sharing your experience with the North American stuff.


----------



## Jan A (Dec 21, 2021)

Tom said:


> You make some good points Mark. Thanks for sharing your experience with the North American stuff.


So in general, when Big Government comes in & over-regulates something it knows very little or nothing about and has little interest in it (i.e., no one in the current Administration has this on their bucket list), somebody's making big bucks on the back side. Who or what is driving this?


----------



## Tom (Dec 21, 2021)

Jan A said:


> So in general, when Big Government comes in & over-regulates something it knows very little or nothing about and has little interest in it (i.e., no one in the current Administration has this on their bucket list), somebody's making big bucks on the back side. Who or what is driving this?


Often when things don't make sense, we can figure it out by following the money. Not so in this case. Its not the money. Its something much more sinister. Its ideologues pushing and following an agenda. Animal rights.


----------

