# Sudan Sulcatas (This never gets old...)



## Tom

My very first clutch of true 100% pure Sudan sulcatas is now hatching. I don't care how many times I see this, it just never gets old. I dig up the eggs carefully place them in my prepared shoe boxes, watch the temperature in the incubator and tend to them for months, and then...



When that first pip comes, I swear I'm more excited than I was when I was a little boy on Christmas morning. After all those years of raising the parents from hatchlings, soaking, feeding, watering, cleaning, building night boxes, tending to their enclosures, locking them up every night and letting them out every morning, and then months of watching the eggs and wondering what your gonna get... When they finally hatch it is just the most amazing thing ever. Little mini versions of their parents. Walking around and ready to join the world. I recall the fun and pure joy I had raising the parents of these babies and knowing that their new owners will experience that same joy and happiness and it brings a smile to my face every time I think about it. These babies will be ready for their new homes in about a month.

For any one who doesn't know what the difference between a Sudan sulcata and a "regular" sulcata is: Sudan males get literally twice the size of regular males, and have a much higher dome. Females of both are similar in size, but Sudan females also tend to have the higher domes. Care, diet, housing and every thing else is the same. Send me a PM if you are interested.


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## jsheffield

Congratulations!


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## iAmCentrochelys sulcata

Tom said:


> My very first clutch of true 100% pure Sudan sulcatas is now hatching. I don't care how many times I see this, it just never gets old. I dig up the eggs carefully place them in my prepared shoe boxes, watch the temperature in the incubator and tend to them for months, and then...
> View attachment 302098
> 
> 
> When that first pip comes, I swear I'm more excited than I was when I was a little boy on Christmas morning. After all those years of raising the parents from hatchlings, soaking, feeding, watering, cleaning, building night boxes, tending to their enclosures, locking them up every night and letting them out every morning, and then months of watching the eggs and wondering what your gonna get... When they finally hatch it is just the most amazing thing ever. Little mini versions of their parents. Walking around and ready to join the world. I recall the fun and pure joy I had raising the parents of these babies and knowing that their new owners will experience that same joy and happiness and it brings a smile to my face every time I think about it. These babies will be ready for their new homes in about a month.
> 
> For any one who doesn't know what the difference between a Sudan sulcata and a "regular" sulcata is: Sudan males get literally twice the size of regular males, and have a much higher dome. Females of both are similar in size, but Sudan females also tend to have the higher domes. Care, diet, housing and every thing else is the same. Send me a PM if you are interested.


Really interesting, they’re beautiful, the Carapace, is it hard to distinguish it from a normal sulcata?


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## Mystic_Queen (Llaria)

Beautiful hatchlings. 
congratulations.


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## Tom

iAmCentrochelys sulcata said:


> Really interesting, they’re beautiful, the Carapace, is it hard to distinguish it from a normal sulcata?


Not when they are babies. At around 8 years old the higher dome becomes noticeable. And then when a normal sulcata sort of peaks and stops growing, these just keep growing and growing and growing. I saw one that was nearly 400 pounds. I've seen more than a dozen that were over 250.


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## turtlesteve

Congrats! Looks like it’s gonna be a busy year raising hatchlings...


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## Maro2Bear

Nice job Tom! And what we all pretty much expect you to produce - darn perfect hatchling Sulcatas. Next pix, the team all in the pool for their first soak. ??


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## Toddrickfl1

Nothing better than having the fruits of your labor be baby tortoises.


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## Markw84

Congratulations, Tom!


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## Tom

turtlesteve said:


> Congrats! Looks like it’s gonna be a busy year raising hatchlings...


Man you don't know the half of it... If the SA leopard girls keep going, I'll have more than 200 eggs from them by November. I've got three clutches from my Burmese stars in the middle of summer, I can't imagine what they are going to do in winter when they normally lay. I finally got a male, so I should have radiata eggs this winter. I caught my red ackies breeding for the first time yesterday. I have a bunch of DT babies coming my way to start and adopt out. My roach colonies seem to be on reproductive overdrive. Plus a few other things going on...

Yeah. Busy is an understatement. Since I haven't worked for 6 months, I'm pretty happy to be busy in this way right now.


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## turtlesteve

Tom said:


> Man you don't know the half of it... If the SA leopard girls keep going, I'll have more than 200 eggs from them by November. I've got three clutches from my Burmese stars in the middle of summer, I can't imagine what they are going to do in winter when they normally lay. I finally got a male, so I should have radiata eggs this winter. I caught my red ackies breeding for the first time yesterday. I have a bunch of DT babies coming my way to start and adopt out. My roach colonies seem to be on reproductive overdrive. Plus a few other things going on...
> 
> Yeah. Busy is an understatement. Since I haven't worked for 6 months, I'm pretty happy to be busy in this way right now.



Yeah good problems to have for sure! I'm not sure I could handle 100's of hatchlings, but by the time I get there, the kids will be old enough to help out.


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## Tom

I frequently complain that "most people don't start babies correctly". I figure this is a good opportunity to expand on that and explain more.

Here are the first babies to hatch enjoying their first soak:



Here is the routine: I get the shoe box with the hatching babies out of the incubator and bring it to the sink. I get the water warm and turn it down to a trickle. I pick up each baby that has exited its egg and examine it's yolk sac. If the yolk sac is reasonably small, which it usually is if they were out of their egg, then I rinse them in the warm trickling tap water to get the schmutz and vermiculite off of them, and then I put them into a pre-filled warm soaking tub. I then put the lid back on the shoebox and put the rest of the eggs back into the incubator. Next I turn on the bird brooder, set the temp, and prepare their brooder boxes. Normally I limit it to 6 babies to a box, but I make an exception to 8 on day one. Tomorrow these guys will be divided up in to smaller groups of no more than six. If you don't have a bird brooder, this step can be done in the incubator, but I like the bird brooder because it gets them started on a day/night cycle with the lights, while the incubator is just always dark inside.

I used to use paper towels on the bottom of the brooder boxes, and if I don't have anything else, I still will on day one or two only. I prefer to use grape leaves, broadleaf plantain leaves, or large mulberry leaves. I alternate through these three. I also add in different grasses, weeds, leaves, baby opuntia pads, flowers, and grocery store greens for them to nibble on. In these first few days, I try to introduce them to new foods every day for at least two weeks before repeating anything. This makes for babies that will literally eat anything you put in front of them, which is why I'm always bitching at people to NOT let their tortoises have access to anything toxic with the incorrect assumption that the tortoises know better and won't eat the wrong stuff. My babies will, but I do this so they will eat a huge variety of the right stuff for their new owners.

I also leave some of their egg shells in with them for a few days. They don't seem to do anything with them, but I want them to have the option.



My bird brooder box has a fan that runs 24/7. I place the tub of water directly under the fan to keep humidity up and reduce the wind on my shoe boxes. As long as I have room, I keep the rain water spray bottle in there to keep the water in it warm. I can fit up to nine shoe boxes in the brooder at once.



Every day, I remove the old leaves and food, and soak them for 15-20 minutes in their brooder boxes. While they soak, I go outside and get fresh leaves and food for their new boxes. When they've soaked enough, I spray them off with my rain water and put them into their freshly made up clean boxes with a wet shell. Then they go back into the bird brooder for another day. This goes on for anywhere from 7 -10 days. Why 7-10 days? I'm glad you asked. This is about how long it takes for them to absorb their yolk sac and have the umbilical scar close up and heal. I do not think babies should be in an enclosure and on substrate until the yolk sac is absorbed and the umbilical scar completely closed up. I see many breeders making this mistake.

Here is what these babies looked like today. I'll do a daily progression on them to show how quickly it absorbs and heals up if people would just keep them in a brooder box instead of in a dry enclosure on substrate.





Comments and questions are welcome.


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## Krista S

Thank you for sharing all of these details and pictures. It’s really interesting to learn about what all goes into doing this the right way. If I ever get another tortoise, I will be much more prepared and have a lot more questions that will need to be answered upfront. I appreciate all of the knowledge you’re always sharing. The babies are beautiful too!


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## Tom

@Markw84 Please chime in with any added info or details I am missing. I'm singling you out because I know your methods are similar to mine, and your attention to detail is unparalleled.


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## MichaelL

Love it Tom. The idea of using leaves as a sort of substrate in the brooder box is genius. Bet you never deal with impaction. Super cool.


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## Tom

MichaelL said:


> Love it Tom. The idea of using leaves as a sort of substrate in the brooder box is genius. Bet you never deal with impaction. Super cool.


Thanks. That is one of those details that I can't remember where I got it. I might have figured that one out myself, but I do remember @DeanS talking about keeping hatchings on a bed of food for substrate years ago around the same time I started doing this. I don't know which one of us got the idea from the other, or if we both just figured it out around the same time.

This is the kind of thing that I was talking about in that other thread. So much of the useful knowledge I have came from other tortoise keepers. So many little details have been shared in so many conversations over so many years, that I often can't remember where some of these wonderful ideas came from. I've been lucky to be exposed to so many inventive, innovative tortoise keepers. I'd say that the majority of this has happened either on this forum, or because of this forum.


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## Markw84

Tom said:


> @Markw84 Please chime in with any added info or details I am missing. I'm singling you out because I know your methods are similar to mine, and your attention to detail is unparalleled.


Tom, you and I do it almost identically. My incubators are converted wine coolers. So they have LED lighting. I do like to have a photoperiod for them once they hatch as you do with the bird brooder. The only slight difference is that I put in an extra pile of larger leaves to ensure they can hide under the leaves. I believe that baby tortoises naturally hide beneath leaf litter when first hatched. I feel this reduces stress. It always amazes me how quickly they start eating. So many have said for so long the don't need food while they are living off their yolk sac they are absorbing. We see this is not true.


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## BrookeB

Ahhhhh they are so fricken cute ??? I cant wait to have some  I absolutely love the way you start your babies as there is no chance of them hurting themselves with the medium and on top of that they get so much fresh food.. oh I’m really excited.


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## solidsounds17

Wow congrats man! I wish I had your time and knowledge ?


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## KarenSoCal

Tom, I'm so delighted for you! Caring for all these babies will keep you out of trouble for a while!  
This thread is going to be a blast! ?


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## Tom

Markw84 said:


> The only slight difference is that I put in an extra pile of larger leaves to ensure they can hide under the leaves. I believe that baby tortoises naturally hide beneath leaf litter when first hatched. I feel this reduces stress.


See Mark? That is exactly what I'm talking about! Starting tomorrow, I'm going to pile in the leaves for them. I have plenty, so no reason not to. This is the kind of tid bit that I will incorporate into my routine, and in a few years, I probably won't remember who taught me this.


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## Tom

KarenSoCal said:


> Caring for all these babies will keep you out of trouble for a while!


No. No it won't. I'll find a way...


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## Tom

All but 4 are out of their eggs now. Only one isn't going to hatch. 23/24 for her first clutch isn't bad. I'm pretty happy with that. The one egg had never showed any development when candled previously, so that wasn't a surprise. The first 8 from yesterday are in the upper tub in this photo:



Here are some Yolk sac photos on day 2 to compare to yesterday's photos:







It happens fast if they are soaked daily and kept in the correct environment. Here is the next tid bit of info: Once they all hatch, I soak them together and I sort them into their tubs by the size and condition of their yolk sacs. I put like with like. See how the one in the last picture above is much farther along? I'll put him and 5 siblings that are in similar shape in a box, and I'll put the other ones with more sac still showing together in their own brooder box.


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## BrookeB

Tom said:


> All but 4 are out of their eggs now. Only one isn't going to hatch. 23/24 for her first clutch isn't bad. I'm pretty happy with that. The one egg had never showed any development when candled previously, so that wasn't a surprise. The first 8 from yesterday are in the upper tub in this photo:
> View attachment 302308
> 
> 
> Here are some Yolk sac photos on day 2 to compare to yesterday's photos:
> View attachment 302309
> 
> View attachment 302310
> 
> View attachment 302311
> 
> 
> It happens fast if they are soaked daily and kept in the correct environment. Here is the next tid bit of info: Once they all hatch, I soak them together and I sort them into their tubs by the size and condition of their yolk sacs. I put like with like. See how the one in the last picture above is much farther along? I'll put him and 5 siblings that are in similar shape in a box, and I'll put the other ones with more sac still showing together in their own brooder box.



???? We need one more split scute/extra scute Tom! I’m already in love with the two I see in your group.. They are all sooo beautiful. ?

wow that belly button closes fast with your care, I was looking at a post on Facebook and it was taking like a week to get to that point.


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## TechnoCheese

It’s times like this when I desperately wish I had the space for another Sulcata


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## pennimo

Tom said:


> My very first clutch of true 100% pure Sudan sulcatas is now hatching. I don't care how many times I see this, it just never gets old. I dig up the eggs carefully place them in my prepared shoe boxes, watch the temperature in the incubator and tend to them for months, and then...
> View attachment 302098
> 
> 
> When that first pip comes, I swear I'm more excited than I was when I was a little boy on Christmas morning. After all those years of raising the parents from hatchlings, soaking, feeding, watering, cleaning, building night boxes, tending to their enclosures, locking them up every night and letting them out every morning, and then months of watching the eggs and wondering what your gonna get... When they finally hatch it is just the most amazing thing ever. Little mini versions of their parents. Walking around and ready to join the world. I recall the fun and pure joy I had raising the parents of these babies and knowing that their new owners will experience that same joy and happiness and it brings a smile to my face every time I think about it. These babies will be ready for their new homes in about a month.
> 
> For any one who doesn't know what the difference between a Sudan sulcata and a "regular" sulcata is: Sudan males get literally twice the size of regular males, and have a much higher dome. Females of both are similar in size, but Sudan females also tend to have the higher domes. Care, diet, housing and every thing else is the same. Send me a PM if you are interested.


I find this so interesting. Thank you for sharing and giving so much love to these little guys. I just joined this group and so happy I did.


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## Hutsie B

congratulations Tom on your babies, very interesting reading how you work with them.


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## Gijoux

So very excited for you Tom! What a first clutch. You are definitely going to be a busy man. How old are the adult Sudans? The babies are just beautiful. Congratulations once again.


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## Geri K

Tom said:


> All but 4 are out of their eggs now. Only one isn't going to hatch. 23/24 for her first clutch isn't bad. I'm pretty happy with that. The one egg had never showed any development when candled previously, so that wasn't a surprise. The first 8 from yesterday are in the upper tub in this photo:
> View attachment 302308
> 
> 
> Here are some Yolk sac photos on day 2 to compare to yesterday's photos:
> View attachment 302309
> 
> View attachment 302310
> 
> View attachment 302311
> 
> 
> It happens fast if they are soaked daily and kept in the correct environment. Here is the next tid bit of info: Once they all hatch, I soak them together and I sort them into their tubs by the size and condition of their yolk sacs. I put like with like. See how the one in the last picture above is much farther along? I'll put him and 5 siblings that are in similar shape in a box, and I'll put the other ones with more sac still showing together in their own brooder box.


Thank you for the beautiful pics and the detailed explanation. This is wonderful for me, and I feel like these are my babies too!


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## Tom

Gijoux said:


> So very excited for you Tom! What a first clutch. You are definitely going to be a busy man. How old are the adult Sudans? The babies are just beautiful. Congratulations once again.


Dean and I drove out to the desert in May of 2012 and bought 20 hatchlings directly from the breeder. We've sold off the rest, but I kept these two because they were my favorites. The male is named Gargantua. I call the female Digger. Can you guess how she got that name?


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## Nash

I have a 10 year old girl visiting me and my husband. We have been reading through the Tortoiseforum messages as they come into my email. She really enjoys my sulcata and is today TOTALLY enjoying looking and reading all about your new hatchlings. She has learned so very much while she has been here and now this! Thank you Tom for these educational, beautiful and happy moments. She has a smile on her face and can't stop saying, "AWWWW! How cute, they're so cute!" She has learned that they aren't for everyone and that it takes a whole lot of time and money just for one.


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## Turtle mom to 36

iAmCentrochelys sulcata said:


> Really interesting, they’re beautiful, the Carapace, is it hard to distinguish it from a normal sulcata?





Tom said:


> My very first clutch of true 100% pure Sudan sulcatas is now hatching. I don't care how many times I see this, it just never gets old. I dig up the eggs carefully place them in my prepared shoe boxes, watch the temperature in the incubator and tend to them for months, and then...
> View attachment 302098
> 
> 
> When that first pip comes, I swear I'm more excited than I was when I was a little boy on Christmas morning. After all those years of raising the parents from hatchlings, soaking, feeding, watering, cleaning, building night boxes, tending to their enclosures, locking them up every night and letting them out every morning, and then months of watching the eggs and wondering what your gonna get... When they finally hatch it is just the most amazing thing ever. Little mini versions of their parents. Walking around and ready to join the world. I recall the fun and pure joy I had raising the parents of these babies and knowing that their new owners will experience that same joy and happiness and it brings a smile to my face every time I think about it. These babies will be ready for their new homes in about a month.
> 
> For any one who doesn't know what the difference between a Sudan sulcata and a "regular" sulcata is: Sudan males get literally twice the size of regular males, and have a much higher dome. Females of both are similar in size, but Sudan females also tend to have the higher domes. Care, diet, housing and every thing else is the same. Send me a PM if you are interested.



Wow, That’s absolutely amazing! Congrats on being a brand new tort daddy! ?


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## Ink

About how big are the babies? They are so cute


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## Blackdog1714

That many babies should be nothing after your Spiders and their babies?


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## Tom

Ink said:


> About how big are the babies? They are so cute


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## Sarah2020

So cute and fascinating. Thanks for sharing and look forward to further progress updates.


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## Tom

Day 3 umbilical pics:


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## Tom

BrookeB said:


> ???? We need one more split scute/extra scute Tom! I’m already in love with the two I see in your group..


Its your lucky day. I seldom get split scutes, but one of the remaining four from yesterday that hadn't left their egg yet turned out to be number split scute number 3.



Right now they are separated into brooding boxes according to when they hatched and the state of their umbilical scar. In a few days I will put them all together and get you a pic of your three all together.


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## Ink

So beautiful!


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## Gijoux

Tom said:


> Dean and I drove out to the desert in May of 2012 and bought 20 hatchlings directly from the breeder. We've sold off the rest, but I kept these two because they were my favorites. The male is named Gargantua. I call the female Digger. Can you guess how she got that name?


I'm sure you are glad you've got the amount of property that you do. For sure Digger is happy.


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## Mystic_Queen (Llaria)

Theses babies are so beautiful. And the information you give is just wow. 
there umbilical cord scars heal so fast unless you see them pics you truly wouldn’t believe it. 
can I fly over and adopt one of them beauty’s ?. Q
Sudan sulcatas are are just ??. But so is every tort breed. 
congrats on your beautiful bunch can’t wait to see more pics as they grow before they go to there new homes


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## EllieMay

Tom said:


> All but 4 are out of their eggs now. Only one isn't going to hatch. 23/24 for her first clutch isn't bad. I'm pretty happy with that. The one egg had never showed any development when candled previously, so that wasn't a surprise. The first 8 from yesterday are in the upper tub in this photo:
> View attachment 302308
> 
> 
> Here are some Yolk sac photos on day 2 to compare to yesterday's photos:
> View attachment 302309
> 
> View attachment 302310
> 
> View attachment 302311
> 
> 
> It happens fast if they are soaked daily and kept in the correct environment. Here is the next tid bit of info: Once they all hatch, I soak them together and I sort them into their tubs by the size and condition of their yolk sacs. I put like with like. See how the one in the last picture above is much farther along? I'll put him and 5 siblings that are in similar shape in a box, and I'll put the other ones with more sac still showing together in their own brooder box.



Omg.... I see two with beautiful aberrant scutes! I would love to have Sudans... ( you must tell me no!) I already have 3 yards, each with a male in it... and none are yet full grown... this is how it all goes bad! They really are beautiful babies... I love reading your info!


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## tortlvr

Tom said:


> I frequently complain that "most people don't start babies correctly". I figure this is a good opportunity to expand on that and explain more.
> 
> Here are the first babies to hatch enjoying their first soak:
> View attachment 302197
> 
> 
> Here is the routine: I get the shoe box with the hatching babies out of the incubator and bring it to the sink. I get the water warm and turn it down to a trickle. I pick up each baby that has exited its egg and examine it's yolk sac. If the yolk sac is reasonably small, which it usually is if they were out of their egg, then I rinse them in the warm trickling tap water to get the schmutz and vermiculite off of them, and then I put them into a pre-filled warm soaking tub. I then put the lid back on the shoebox and put the rest of the eggs back into the incubator. Next I turn on the bird brooder, set the temp, and prepare their brooder boxes. Normally I limit it to 6 babies to a box, but I make an exception to 8 on day one. Tomorrow these guys will be divided up in to smaller groups of no more than six. If you don't have a bird brooder, this step can be done in the incubator, but I like the bird brooder because it gets them started on a day/night cycle with the lights, while the incubator is just always dark inside.
> 
> I used to use paper towels on the bottom of the brooder boxes, and if I don't have anything else, I still will on day one or two only. I prefer to use grape leaves, broadleaf plantain leaves, or large mulberry leaves. I alternate through these three. I also add in different grasses, weeds, leaves, baby opuntia pads, flowers, and grocery store greens for them to nibble on. In these first few days, I try to introduce them to new foods every day for at least two weeks before repeating anything. This makes for babies that will literally eat anything you put in front of them, which is why I'm always bitching at people to NOT let their tortoises have access to anything toxic with the incorrect assumption that the tortoises know better and won't eat the wrong stuff. My babies will, but I do this so they will eat a huge variety of the right stuff for their new owners.
> 
> I also leave some of their egg shells in with them for a few days. They don't seem to do anything with them, but I want them to have the option.
> View attachment 302201
> 
> 
> My bird brooder box has a fan that runs 24/7. I place the tub of water directly under the fan to keep humidity up and reduce the wind on my shoe boxes. As long as I have room, I keep the rain water spray bottle in there to keep the water in it warm. I can fit up to nine shoe boxes in the brooder at once.
> View attachment 302202
> 
> 
> Every day, I remove the old leaves and food, and soak them for 15-20 minutes in their brooder boxes. While they soak, I go outside and get fresh leaves and food for their new boxes. When they've soaked enough, I spray them off with my rain water and put them into their freshly made up clean boxes with a wet shell. Then they go back into the bird brooder for another day. This goes on for anywhere from 7 -10 days. Why 7-10 days? I'm glad you asked. This is about how long it takes for them to absorb their yolk sac and have the umbilical scar close up and heal. I do not think babies should be in an enclosure and on substrate until the yolk sac is absorbed and the umbilical scar completely closed up. I see many breeders making this mistake.
> 
> Here is what these babies looked like today. I'll do a daily progression on them to show how quickly it absorbs and heals up if people would just keep them in a brooder box instead of in a dry enclosure on substrate.
> View attachment 302210
> View attachment 302211
> View attachment 302212
> 
> 
> Comments and questions are welcome.


What do you do if the yolk sac is injured?


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## Viola B

So many beautiful babies! Amazing! Thank you for sharing all the pictures and information.


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## Tom

tortlvr said:


> What do you do if the yolk sac is injured?


Don't injure it. Make sure is isn't injured in the first place. In most cases, that is a death sentence.

All you can do is try to keep the baby on damp perp towels and change them every few hours to reduce the build up of bacteria and any other pathogens.


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## Tom

EllieMay said:


> Omg.... I see two with beautiful aberrant scutes! I would love to have Sudans... ( you must tell me no!) I already have 3 yards, each with a male in it... and none are yet full grown... this is how it all goes bad! They really are beautiful babies... I love reading your info!


You have come to the WRONG place if you are looking for anyone to tell you NOT to get another tortoise! We are a bunch of enablers and co-addicts here!


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## Chefdenoel10

Tom said:


> My very first clutch of true 100% pure Sudan sulcatas is now hatching. I don't care how many times I see this, it just never gets old. I dig up the eggs carefully place them in my prepared shoe boxes, watch the temperature in the incubator and tend to them for months, and then...
> View attachment 302098
> 
> 
> When that first pip comes, I swear I'm more excited than I was when I was a little boy on Christmas morning. After all those years of raising the parents from hatchlings, soaking, feeding, watering, cleaning, building night boxes, tending to their enclosures, locking them up every night and letting them out every morning, and then months of watching the eggs and wondering what your gonna get... When they finally hatch it is just the most amazing thing ever. Little mini versions of their parents. Walking around and ready to join the world. I recall the fun and pure joy I had raising the parents of these babies and knowing that their new owners will experience that same joy and happiness and it brings a smile to my face every time I think about it. These babies will be ready for their new homes in about a month.
> 
> For any one who doesn't know what the difference between a Sudan sulcata and a "regular" sulcata is: Sudan males get literally twice the size of regular males, and have a much higher dome. Females of both are similar in size, but Sudan females also tend to have the higher domes. Care, diet, housing and every thing else is the same. Send me a PM if you are interested.



i love the fact that you are so excited!!!
I wanna see a picture of your “smiling” happiness!!!????
Congrats!!!
You did a GREAT job “Dad”.
Enjoy them while they are young because that’s when everything about them is FUN!!
?


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## Linda Fry

I love your split scute babies! What temperature do you incubate at and what temperature is your Bird Brooder Box?


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## Tom

Linda Fry said:


> I love your split scute babies! What temperature do you incubate at and what temperature is your Bird Brooder Box?


I incubate at 87-88 specifically to avoid the split scutes. Its rare for me to get them. I used to incubate at 89-90 to get more females, but I lowered it a bit so I would not get split scutes at all.

The Brinsea bird brooder box is kept at about 88-89.


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## Nickff15

Tom said:


> My very first clutch of true 100% pure Sudan sulcatas is now hatching. I don't care how many times I see this, it just never gets old. I dig up the eggs carefully place them in my prepared shoe boxes, watch the temperature in the incubator and tend to them for months, and then...
> View attachment 302098
> 
> 
> When that first pip comes, I swear I'm more excited than I was when I was a little boy on Christmas morning. After all those years of raising the parents from hatchlings, soaking, feeding, watering, cleaning, building night boxes, tending to their enclosures, locking them up every night and letting them out every morning, and then months of watching the eggs and wondering what your gonna get... When they finally hatch it is just the most amazing thing ever. Little mini versions of their parents. Walking around and ready to join the world. I recall the fun and pure joy I had raising the parents of these babies and knowing that their new owners will experience that same joy and happiness and it brings a smile to my face every time I think about it. These babies will be ready for their new homes in about a month.
> 
> For any one who doesn't know what the difference between a Sudan sulcata and a "regular" sulcata is: Sudan males get literally twice the size of regular males, and have a much higher dome. Females of both are similar in size, but Sudan females also tend to have the higher domes. Care, diet, housing and every thing else is the same. Send me a PM if you are interested.


Will you be selling any? If so send me an email. [email protected] 
Also do you have anymore pictures of the parents?


----------



## Tom

Nickff15 said:


> Will you be selling any? If so send me an email. [email protected]
> Also do you have anymore pictures of the parents?


Yes. I'll be selling all of them.
Here is an older pic of the parents. I've got to get fresh pics.




Dad:




Mom:


----------



## BrookeB

Tom said:


> Its your lucky day. I seldom get split scutes, but one of the remaining four from yesterday that hadn't left their egg yet turned out to be number split scute number 3.
> View attachment 302388
> 
> 
> Right now they are separated into brooding boxes according to when they hatched and the state of their umbilical scar. In a few days I will put them all together and get you a pic of your three all together.


Omg omg yay!!!!! Lmao your a tortoise wizard I asked for 3 with split scutes and LOOK at that???? I could throw you a party!!! Ohhh they are all so pretty. Can you tell I’m excited lol.


----------



## BrookeB

So I have a question about soaking the tortoises. I saw something interesting on Facebook and I’m unsure if using it would harm the tortoises in any way, as I haven’t seen this used by any of you experts. While soaking the hatchling the owner of the three hatchings put a washcloth on the bottom of the soaking tub. She showed a before video (Without washcloth) and an after video (with washcloth). In the before video you could see the normal reaction most hatchling have (running around/climbing walls not wanting anything to do with bath time etc. in the second video with the washcloth the tortoises (all 3 hatchlings) where sitting and relaxing, they would walk slowly and they where even drinking way more. Honestly it seemed like they enjoyed their soak a lot more with a washcloth floor. Is this a good idea or is there some issues that I’m not seeing in using this method? When I get some of your tortoises I don’t want to do anything wrong. Lol


----------



## Oxalis

Tom said:


> Here is an older pic of the parents. I've got to get fresh pics.
> View attachment 302447
> 
> 
> 
> Dad:
> View attachment 302445
> 
> 
> 
> Mom:
> View attachment 302446


Nothing warms the heart like baby photos! Mom and Dad look absolutely beautiful too. ? I'm amazed that the yolk sac is absorbed SO quickly with the added hydration, but I'm not surprised since your methods are near perfection. Great job!!


----------



## phengx83

Tom said:


> My very first clutch of true 100% pure Sudan sulcatas is now hatching. I don't care how many times I see this, it just never gets old. I dig up the eggs carefully place them in my prepared shoe boxes, watch the temperature in the incubator and tend to them for months, and then...
> View attachment 302098
> 
> 
> When that first pip comes, I swear I'm more excited than I was when I was a little boy on Christmas morning. After all those years of raising the parents from hatchlings, soaking, feeding, watering, cleaning, building night boxes, tending to their enclosures, locking them up every night and letting them out every morning, and then months of watching the eggs and wondering what your gonna get... When they finally hatch it is just the most amazing thing ever. Little mini versions of their parents. Walking around and ready to join the world. I recall the fun and pure joy I had raising the parents of these babies and knowing that their new owners will experience that same joy and happiness and it brings a smile to my face every time I think about it. These babies will be ready for their new homes in about a month.
> 
> For any one who doesn't know what the difference between a Sudan sulcata and a "regular" sulcata is: Sudan males get literally twice the size of regular males, and have a much higher dome. Females of both are similar in size, but Sudan females also tend to have the higher domes. Care, diet, housing and every thing else is the same. Send me a PM if you are interested.


----------



## phengx83

WOW! Congrats! They look awesome. I have never known about them.


----------



## Nickff15

Tom said:


> I frequently complain that "most people don't start babies correctly". I figure this is a good opportunity to expand on that and explain more.
> 
> Here are the first babies to hatch enjoying their first soak:
> View attachment 302197
> 
> 
> Here is the routine: I get the shoe box with the hatching babies out of the incubator and bring it to the sink. I get the water warm and turn it down to a trickle. I pick up each baby that has exited its egg and examine it's yolk sac. If the yolk sac is reasonably small, which it usually is if they were out of their egg, then I rinse them in the warm trickling tap water to get the schmutz and vermiculite off of them, and then I put them into a pre-filled warm soaking tub. I then put the lid back on the shoebox and put the rest of the eggs back into the incubator. Next I turn on the bird brooder, set the temp, and prepare their brooder boxes. Normally I limit it to 6 babies to a box, but I make an exception to 8 on day one. Tomorrow these guys will be divided up in to smaller groups of no more than six. If you don't have a bird brooder, this step can be done in the incubator, but I like the bird brooder because it gets them started on a day/night cycle with the lights, while the incubator is just always dark inside.
> 
> I used to use paper towels on the bottom of the brooder boxes, and if I don't have anything else, I still will on day one or two only. I prefer to use grape leaves, broadleaf plantain leaves, or large mulberry leaves. I alternate through these three. I also add in different grasses, weeds, leaves, baby opuntia pads, flowers, and grocery store greens for them to nibble on. In these first few days, I try to introduce them to new foods every day for at least two weeks before repeating anything. This makes for babies that will literally eat anything you put in front of them, which is why I'm always bitching at people to NOT let their tortoises have access to anything toxic with the incorrect assumption that the tortoises know better and won't eat the wrong stuff. My babies will, but I do this so they will eat a huge variety of the right stuff for their new owners.
> 
> I also leave some of their egg shells in with them for a few days. They don't seem to do anything with them, but I want them to have the option.
> View attachment 302201
> 
> 
> My bird brooder box has a fan that runs 24/7. I place the tub of water directly under the fan to keep humidity up and reduce the wind on my shoe boxes. As long as I have room, I keep the rain water spray bottle in there to keep the water in it warm. I can fit up to nine shoe boxes in the brooder at once.
> View attachment 302202
> 
> 
> Every day, I remove the old leaves and food, and soak them for 15-20 minutes in their brooder boxes. While they soak, I go outside and get fresh leaves and food for their new boxes. When they've soaked enough, I spray them off with my rain water and put them into their freshly made up clean boxes with a wet shell. Then they go back into the bird brooder for another day. This goes on for anywhere from 7 -10 days. Why 7-10 days? I'm glad you asked. This is about how long it takes for them to absorb their yolk sac and have the umbilical scar close up and heal. I do not think babies should be in an enclosure and on substrate until the yolk sac is absorbed and the umbilical scar completely closed up. I see many breeders making this mistake.
> 
> Here is what these babies looked like today. I'll do a daily progression on them to show how quickly it absorbs and heals up if people would just keep them in a brooder box instead of in a dry enclosure on substrate.
> View attachment 302210
> View attachment 302211
> View attachment 302212
> 
> 
> Comments and questions are welcome.


They look great ?


----------



## Nickff15

Tom said:


> Yes. I'll be selling all of them.
> Here is an older pic of the parents. I've got to get fresh pics.
> View attachment 302447
> 
> 
> 
> Dad:
> View attachment 302445
> 
> 
> 
> Mom:
> View attachment 302446


They look perfect ? and no pyramiding. Great job! 
I'll have to get their diet plan one day.


----------



## BrookeB

Last couple questions!!

what age do you usually starts selling the babies, how long am I going to have to wait lol.. is it at a certain size like @Gijoux or is it at a certain age? I’ve seen babies at their new homes with their umbilical not even fully scarred up yet. And to me that doesn’t seem right.

And with this method have you ever had issues with hatchling failure syndrome? I know what it is and I have read all of the information on it on here (even your personal explanation Tom) because of my past babies but I was wondering if you still get a small percentage that has it Still or if it’s actually completely fixed with the way you care for them.

(I hope I’m not asking to much on this thread I definitely don’t want to steal any of your attention because these little guys and you deserve praise.)


----------



## Tom

BrookeB said:


> Last couple questions!!
> 
> what age do you usually starts selling the babies, how long am I going to have to wait lol.. is it at a certain size like @Gijoux or is it at a certain age? I’ve seen babies at their new homes with their umbilical not even fully scarred up yet. And to me that doesn’t seem right.
> 
> And with this method have you ever had issues with hatchling failure syndrome? I know what it is and I have read all of the information on it on here (even your personal explanation Tom) because of my past babies but I was wondering if you still get a small percentage that has it Still or if it’s actually completely fixed with the way you care for them.
> 
> (I hope I’m not asking to much on this thread I definitely don’t want to steal any of your attention because these little guys and you deserve praise.)


I like to wait 4-6 weeks to make sure they are eating well and growing. As seen in this thread, the umbilical scar will be all closed up and healed before they set foot in an enclosure.

Zero "Breeder Failure Syndrome" with these methods. The organ damage caused by chronic dehydration simply doesn't happen with daily soaks and a warm humid enclosure.


----------



## Tom

It was an unusually cool August day with temps only in the 80s. I caught Dad up and walking around. You can see his burrow in the first pic. That is where he spends most of his time in summer. That's why he looks so dirty. I include the pics to show the high dome characteristic of Sudans. You can clearly see it in these pictures. He's only 8 years old and about 80 pounds, so this will become more apparent as time passes.


----------



## Tom

DAY 4 PLASTRON PICS:


----------



## Mystic_Queen (Llaria)

Awwwww there ikkle feet and ikkle eyes and mouth. Cuteness overload ??.
And wow there yolk sacs have heals massively over 4 short days ?


----------



## Mystic_Queen (Llaria)

Tom said:


> It was an unusually cool August day with temps only in the 80s. I caught Dad up and walking around. You can see his burrow in the first pic. That is where he spends most of his time in summer. That's why he looks so dirty. I include the pics to show the high dome characteristic of Sudans. You can clearly see it in these pictures. He's only 8 years old and about 80 pounds, so this will become more apparent as time passes.
> View attachment 302522
> 
> View attachment 302523


Beautiful boy.


----------



## EllieMay

Tom said:


> It was an unusually cool August day with temps only in the 80s. I caught Dad up and walking around. You can see his burrow in the first pic. That is where he spends most of his time in summer. That's why he looks so dirty. I include the pics to show the high dome characteristic of Sudans. You can clearly see it in these pictures. He's only 8 years old and about 80 pounds, so this will become more apparent as time passes.
> View attachment 302522
> 
> View attachment 302523


Would you take a similiar pic of one of your other Sulcatas that’s not a Sudan??? I’d like to compare them... I’m trying to educate myself!! ?‍


----------



## Tom

EllieMay said:


> Would you take a similiar pic of one of your other Sulcatas that’s not a Sudan??? I’d like to compare them... I’m trying to educate myself!! ?‍


----------



## EllieMay

Ok.. this put it in perspective for me! Thank you. I can definitely see the difference now..


----------



## Oxalis

EllieMay said:


> Ok.. this put it in perspective for me! Thank you. I can definitely see the difference now..
> View attachment 302540


That's crazy! Totally new to me as well. Thanks for the comparison photos. 

@Tom, are these considered a subspecies or just a kind of separated Sulcata community?


----------



## BrookeB

EllieMay said:


> Ok.. this put it in perspective for me! Thank you. I can definitely see the difference now..
> View attachment 302540


Wow that’s a big difference. I can’t believe I’m going to be lucky enough to have a few of theses guys. And look at how beautiful that are ?... the baby pictures are getting me lol.


----------



## Tom

EllieMay said:


> Ok.. this put it in perspective for me! Thank you. I can definitely see the difference now..


It becomes more pronounced with age and size. Here are some pics of older ones that I took at a private facility in AZ. This one is around 250 pounds:





The owner estimated this one at 380 pounds. The week before I saw this tortoise, I had done a job with Aldabras that were 400+ pounds on a scale, and this sulcata looked bigger to me:



These adults came from the facility that I got my babies from. Its physically possible that one of these is the parent of my babies. Not likely, but possible.


----------



## Tom

Oxalis said:


> That's crazy! Totally new to me as well. Thanks for the comparison photos.
> 
> @Tom, are these considered a subspecies or just a kind of separated Sulcata community?


These are just from a different locality than the "normal" sulcatas, and there are some morphological differences. All one species. Similar in this way to the SA leopards compared to "regular" leopards.

As babies and juveniles, I don't know of any obvious difference or way to tell them apart, but at 10-15 years old the normal sulcatas will usually have reached their full size of 100-130 pounds, and these ones just keep growing and growing an growing...

For a few years Dean and I had our doubts about how different they were or weren't, but now its becoming more and more apparent as Gargantua gains size.


----------



## Oxalis

Tom said:


> These are just from a different locality than the "normal" sulcatas, and there are some morphological differences. All one species. Similar in this way to the SA leopards compared to "regular" leopards.
> 
> As babies and juveniles, I don't know of any obvious difference or way to tell them apart, but at 10-15 years old the normal sulcatas will usually have reached their full size of 100-130 pounds, and these ones just keep growing and growing an growing...
> 
> For a few years Dean and I had our doubts about how different they were or weren't, but now its becoming more and more apparent as Gargantua gains size.


That is really fascinating to me. I love being able to learn more about torts while checking out adorable baby photos.  Thanks!!


----------



## EllieMay

Tom said:


> It becomes more pronounced with age and size. Here are some pics of older ones that I took at a private facility in AZ. This one is around 250 pounds:
> View attachment 302581
> 
> View attachment 302582
> 
> 
> The owner estimated this one at 380 pounds. The week before I saw this tortoise, I had done a job with Aldabras that were 400+ pounds on a scale, and this sulcata looked bigger to me:
> View attachment 302583
> 
> 
> These adults came from the facility that I got my babies from. Its physically possible that one of these is the parent of my babies. Not likely, but possible.


Is it just me or does the color and the texture of the carapace differ as well... even the regal shaped heads look different to me now....?


----------



## Tom

EllieMay said:


> Is it just me or does the color and the texture of the carapace differ as well... even the regal shaped heads look different to me now....?


Color varies depending on age, current growth, environment, and individual habits. I have not noticed a color difference between Sudans and regulars.


----------



## Mimzy2225

Tom said:


> @Markw84 Please chime in with any added info or details I am missing. I'm singling you out because I know your methods are similar to mine, and your attention to detail is unparalleled.


Hello Tom, I have a question about my baby tortoise, I wanted to know about how much is she supposed to eat everyday at a month old? She doesn’t eat much at all and everything I find says about a 1/4 cup a day but she want eat not even half of that and I wanted to make sure that was ok or not?


----------



## Tom

DAY 5 PLASTRON SHOTS:


----------



## mrnewberry

Awesome thread! Thanks for taking the time to share.


----------



## Tom

DAY 6 PLASTRON SHOTS:


----------



## Tom

This little guy has an unusual anomaly. He's got rough serrations on the sides of his shell. I feel it every time I pick him up in and out of the soak water. Hard to see in the pics, but very noticeable when you touch him. I wonder how these serrations will develop or fade as this one grows.


----------



## BrookeB

Tom said:


> This little guy has an unusual anomaly. He's got rough serrations on the sides of his shell. I feel it every time I pick him up in and out of the soak water. Hard to see in the pics, but very noticeable when you touch him. I wonder how these serrations will develop or fade as this one grows.
> View attachment 302770
> View attachment 302771
> View attachment 302773



Wow this guys kinda cool.. that’s really different.


----------



## Tom

DAY 7:


----------



## Mimzy2225

They are beautiful!!!!


----------



## Mimzy2225

I changed all my stuff up to just like your care sheet says “Tom” and my baby is running around the tank now and has her open again and looks great, I’m just concerned because she never eats more then a teaspoon a day and I’m soaking her 30 minutes everyday too.


----------



## EllieMay

Tom said:


> This little guy has an unusual anomaly. He's got rough serrations on the sides of his shell. I feel it every time I pick him up in and out of the soak water. Hard to see in the pics, but very noticeable when you touch him. I wonder how these serrations will develop or fade as this one grows.
> View attachment 302770
> View attachment 302771
> View attachment 302773


That’s so cool!!! Extra weapons...I bet they develop...


----------



## BrookeB

EllieMay said:


> That’s so cool!!! Extra weapons...I bet they develop...


I saw that little guy and asked my husband if I could get 4 from Tom instead of 3 ?? he said no and I need to stop talking to or following posts from @Tom because “he’s a bad influence” ????? I’m already going to get 2 more leopards and 3 of Toms sullies but I pushed my luck.. lol... Awe well can’t win them all, I guess I’ll have to settle for 5 new tortoises...

maybe I do have a problem ?


----------



## turtlesteve

BrookeB said:


> I saw that little guy and asked my husband if I could get 4 from Tom instead of 3 ?? he said no and I need to stop talking to or following posts from @Tom because “he’s a bad influence” ????? I’m already going to get 2 more leopards and 3 of Toms sullies but I pushed my luck.. lol... Awe well can’t win them all, I guess I’ll have to settle for 5 new tortoises...
> 
> maybe I do have a problem ?



Yes, you most certainly do. But, I’m also in line for some of Tom’s leopard hatchlings, so you’re in good company here...


----------



## BrookeB

turtlesteve said:


> Yes, you most certainly do. But, I’m also in line for some of Tom’s leopard hatchlings, so you’re in good company here...


I’m actually not getting the leopards from Tom but another wonderful member here on the forum @Gijoux .. still I only found her through Tom’s recommendation. I want the smaller leopards so that’s one of the reasons I’m not buying his and of course we are lucky to have some really wonderful breeders in this community. But I am ecstatic that I’m going to be getting some of these beautiful Sudan hatchlings. They are monsters but absolutely adorable.


----------



## Tom

Here is what my daily soaking routine looks like. I set the babies up in their soaking water, put the lids on and then prepare the new clean tubs for them to move into after soaking. In each new tub is some radish top, a hollyhock flower, some broadleaf plantain, and the yellow is petals from a cactus flower. I give them something different every day for the first couple of weeks at least.



Here is what it looks like with the lids up for a picture:



And here are the DAY 8 plastron pics:








I also got my first poops today. I didn't think to take a pic, but I'll try to remember tomorrow. The first poops are loose, dark, and have flecks of vermiculite in them. This is why I argue with people who say they don't eat while they still have a yolk sac, or in their first couple weeks. This is also why I tell people to NEVER incubate on perlite. Some of the incubation media WILL be ingested. It better be something inert that can't hurt them.


----------



## Sarah2020

Really interesting to see the journey. Have they put in weight?


----------



## Tom

Sarah2020 said:


> Really interesting to see the journey. Have they put in weight?


They aren't really eating much yet, so I doubt it. I haven't weighed them since hatching. Now I'm curious so I'll have to check.


----------



## Toddrickfl1

Tom said:


> Here is what my daily soaking routine looks like. I set the babies up in their soaking water, put the lids on and then prepare the new clean tubs for them to move into after soaking. In each new tub is some radish top, a hollyhock flower, some broadleaf plantain, and the yellow is petals from a cactus flower. I give them something different every day for the first couple of weeks at least.
> View attachment 303037
> 
> 
> Here is what it looks like with the lids up for a picture:
> View attachment 303038
> 
> 
> And here are the DAY 8 plastron pics:
> View attachment 303039
> View attachment 303040
> View attachment 303041
> View attachment 303042
> View attachment 303043
> 
> 
> 
> I also got my first poops today. I didn't think to take a pic, but I'll try to remember tomorrow. The first poops are loose, dark, and have flecks of vermiculite in them. This is why I argue with people who say they don't eat while they still have a yolk sac, or in their first couple weeks. This is also why I tell people to NEVER incubate on perlite. Some of the incubation media WILL be ingested. It better be something inert that can't hurt them.


Don't deprive us of ? pics!


----------



## Oxalis

Tom said:


> Here is what my daily soaking routine looks like. I set the babies up in their soaking water, put the lids on and then prepare the new clean tubs for them to move into after soaking. In each new tub is some radish top, a hollyhock flower, some broadleaf plantain, and the yellow is petals from a cactus flower. I give them something different every day for the first couple of weeks at least.
> View attachment 303037
> 
> 
> Here is what it looks like with the lids up for a picture:
> View attachment 303038


Just out of curiosity, why are the lids closed on the soaking boxes? Do the babies ever have an issue sharing a box?

Those leaves and flowers look like tortoise heaven!! ?


----------



## Tom

Oxalis said:


> Just out of curiosity, why are the lids closed on the soaking boxes? Do the babies ever have an issue sharing a box?
> 
> Those leaves and flowers look like tortoise heaven!! ?


Closing the lids keeps it more humid and also keeps the water warmer longer.

Never an issue with baby sharing a box.


----------



## Tom

DAY 8:







I could probably put these guys in an enclosure now, but the extra time in the boxes will allow me more time to introduce new and novel foods to them, while allowing those umbilical scars to close up and heal even more.


----------



## Tom

Day 9:


----------



## Ranger406

They are so cute! I can’t wait to get one of these in a couple of weeks. Counting down the days! Thank you for being so thorough with your posts and keeping us all updated. We are all grateful for you care and expertise, @Tom ! ?


----------



## Tom

DAY 10. These guys are pretty much ready to go into their first enclosure now. I'll make the move tomorrow.


----------



## Oxalis

Tom said:


> DAY 10. These guys are pretty much ready to go into their first enclosure now. I'll make the move tomorrow.
> View attachment 303391
> View attachment 303392
> View attachment 303393
> View attachment 303394
> View attachment 303395


Simply amazing. Way to go, @Tom!!!!  Those are definitely going to be some happy, healthy tortoises!


----------



## Sarah2020

Amazing transformation and great to see healthy growth. They will start to keep you very busy when they get attitude and exploring energy.


----------



## Tom

DAY 11:


----------



## Tom

During the soak today, I noticed that some of them are starting to show new growth. You can see the light colored new growth around each scute on some of them. They are eating like pigs already.


----------



## Tom

Here they are all moved into their first enclosure. I like to have lots of food spread all over the enclosure. Whenever they move into their first enclosures, all babies tend to sample the substrate. Its unnerving, but like most baby animals, they sample their world with their mouth. They pick up pieces of orchid bark and then spit it out, but I like their to be food everywhere so that any direction they look or walk, they run into something to eat. This seems to discourage the substrate sampling. This behavior usually doesn't persist past the first day, but this is something a tortoise owner would never know unless you were hatching babies and starting them in their first enclosures. By the time they go to their first homes, they don't do this anymore.

Those are mulberry branches and grape vines all around the enclosure as well as the day's food in the bowl. After these pics, I put even more stuff in there. The leaves also give the babies a place to hide and feel secure, a concept that @Markw84 has been talking a lot about lately.


----------



## Maro2Bear

Tom said:


> Here they are all moved into their first enclosure. I like to have lots of food spread all over the enclosure. Whenever they move into their first enclosures, all babies tend to sample the substrate. Its unnerving, but like most baby animals, they sample their world with their mouth. They pick up pieces of orchid bark and then spit it out, but I like their to be food everywhere so that any direction they look or walk, they run into something to eat. This seems to discourage the substrate sampling. This behavior usually doesn't persist past the first day, but this is something a tortoise owner would never know unless you were hatching babies and starting them in their first enclosures. By the time they go to their first homes, they don't do this anymore.
> 
> Those are mulberry branches and grape vines all around the enclosure as well as the day's food in the bowl. After these pics, I put even more stuff in there. The leaves also give the babies a place to hide and feel secure, a concept that @Markw84 has been talking a lot about lately.
> View attachment 303484
> 
> 
> View attachment 303482
> View attachment 303483



Wow Tom. Perfection. You do a great job. I wish folks with hatchlings would just follow your lead. Substrate, plants, a hide, incandescent bulb, .nice slate to feed on, ...etc. ??


----------



## Tom

Babies are doing great. Munching on some opuntia today:


----------



## Melissacoop

Tom said:


> Man you don't know the half of it... If the SA leopard girls keep going, I'll have more than 200 eggs from them by November. I've got three clutches from my Burmese stars in the middle of summer, I can't imagine what they are going to do in winter when they normally lay. I finally got a male, so I should have radiata eggs this winter. I caught my red ackies breeding for the first time yesterday. I have a bunch of DT babies coming my way to start and adopt out. My roach colonies seem to be on reproductive overdrive. Plus a few other things going on...
> 
> Yeah. Busy is an understatement. Since I haven't worked for 6 months, I'm pretty happy to be busy in this way right now.



Roach colonies?!


----------



## Melissacoop

Can we see a picture of the parents please??


----------



## Tom

Melissacoop said:


> Roach colonies?!


Yep. Down to only three species.


----------



## Tom

Melissacoop said:


> Can we see a picture of the parents please??


See post #51 on page 3 and post #61 on page 4 of this thread.


----------



## Melissacoop

Tom said:


> Here they are all moved into their first enclosure. I like to have lots of food spread all over the enclosure. Whenever they move into their first enclosures, all babies tend to sample the substrate. Its unnerving, but like most baby animals, they sample their world with their mouth. They pick up pieces of orchid bark and then spit it out, but I like their to be food everywhere so that any direction they look or walk, they run into something to eat. This seems to discourage the substrate sampling. This behavior usually doesn't persist past the first day, but this is something a tortoise owner would never know unless you were hatching babies and starting them in their first enclosures. By the time they go to their first homes, they don't do this anymore.
> 
> Those are mulberry branches and grape vines all around the enclosure as well as the day's food in the bowl. After these pics, I put even more stuff in there. The leaves also give the babies a place to hide and feel secure, a concept that @Markw84 has been talking a lot about lately.
> View attachment 303484
> 
> 
> View attachment 303482
> View attachment 303483


What is that vine plant? Pothos??


----------



## Tom

Melissacoop said:


> What is that vine plant? Pothos??


Yes. Pothos. I'm trying to take advice from @Markw84 and put lots of plants in, but I'm encountering the same problem I've always encountered. If they can reach it, they eat it. All species and all ages. I want them to have some security and foraging, so I cut mulberry and grape vine branches to drop in there for them to hide amongst and nibble on. I replace the benches with fresh ones every couple of days as needed.


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## Melissacoop

I thought they can’t eat Pothos?


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## Tom

Melissacoop said:


> I thought they can’t eat Pothos?


We were wrong. Always learning...


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## BrookeB

Tom said:


> We were wrong. Always learning...


Really? I have those too, they can eat those?! What kind?


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## Tom

BrookeB said:


> Really? I have those too, they can eat those?! What kind?


I don't recommend it as a food, but if they nibble on it, it won't kill them.


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## mastershake

they are looking great!! i cant wait till i can get a couple from you. ill def keep in touch about future clutches


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## Sarah2020

How are they doing. Grown lots I expect?


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## Tom

Sarah2020 said:


> How are they doing. Grown lots I expect?


Doing great. I'll get some current pics and post them here.


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## mastershake

id love to see some updated pics also!!


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## saleena.lewis

Congratulations!


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## Tom

Finally got around to getting some more pics today. The babies are doing well. The smallest are over 50 grams now and they make a surprising amount of food disappear daily.


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## mastershake

man they look GREAT!! i wish we could do a few now but you know the situation. i WILL be getting 2 or three next clutch for sure


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## sspapkins

Tom said:


> My very first clutch of true 100% pure Sudan sulcatas is now hatching. I don't care how many times I see this, it just never gets old. I dig up the eggs carefully place them in my prepared shoe boxes, watch the temperature in the incubator and tend to them for months, and then...
> View attachment 302098
> 
> 
> When that first pip comes, I swear I'm more excited than I was when I was a little boy on Christmas morning. After all those years of raising the parents from hatchlings, soaking, feeding, watering, cleaning, building night boxes, tending to their enclosures, locking them up every night and letting them out every morning, and then months of watching the eggs and wondering what your gonna get... When they finally hatch it is just the most amazing thing ever. Little mini versions of their parents. Walking around and ready to join the world. I recall the fun and pure joy I had raising the parents of these babies and knowing that their new owners will experience that same joy and happiness and it brings a smile to my face every time I think about it. These babies will be ready for their new homes in about a month.
> 
> For any one who doesn't know what the difference between a Sudan sulcata and a "regular" sulcata is: Sudan males get literally twice the size of regular males, and have a much higher dome. Females of both are similar in size, but Sudan females also tend to have the higher domes. Care, diet, housing and every thing else is the same. Send me a PM if you are interested.


Congratulations


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## Beasty_Artemis

What cute little ones! Any updates for us ?


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## Lauren Tilbury

Tom said:


> My very first clutch of true 100% pure Sudan sulcatas is now hatching. I don't care how many times I see this, it just never gets old. I dig up the eggs carefully place them in my prepared shoe boxes, watch the temperature in the incubator and tend to them for months, and then...
> View attachment 302098
> 
> 
> When that first pip comes, I swear I'm more excited than I was when I was a little boy on Christmas morning. After all those years of raising the parents from hatchlings, soaking, feeding, watering, cleaning, building night boxes, tending to their enclosures, locking them up every night and letting them out every morning, and then months of watching the eggs and wondering what your gonna get... When they finally hatch it is just the most amazing thing ever. Little mini versions of their parents. Walking around and ready to join the world. I recall the fun and pure joy I had raising the parents of these babies and knowing that their new owners will experience that same joy and happiness and it brings a smile to my face every time I think about it. These babies will be ready for their new homes in about a month.
> 
> For any one who doesn't know what the difference between a Sudan sulcata and a "regular" sulcata is: Sudan males get literally twice the size of regular males, and have a much higher dome. Females of both are similar in size, but Sudan females also tend to have the higher domes. Care, diet, housing and every thing else is the same. Send me a PM if you are interested.


Hi. Where are you in southern Calif. I would love to see them. I'm in Huntington Beach


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## Tom

Beasty_Artemis said:


> What cute little ones! Any updates for us ?


All of them are sold and off to new homes. Mom and Dad will hopefully do it again this winter/spring.


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## Tom

Lauren Tilbury said:


> Hi. Where are you in southern Calif. I would love to see them. I'm in Huntington Beach


All of them have sold.


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## Horse ‘n tortoise

Tom said:


> I frequently complain that "most people don't start babies correctly". I figure this is a good opportunity to expand on that and explain more.
> 
> Here are the first babies to hatch enjoying their first soak:
> View attachment 302197
> 
> 
> Here is the routine: I get the shoe box with the hatching babies out of the incubator and bring it to the sink. I get the water warm and turn it down to a trickle. I pick up each baby that has exited its egg and examine it's yolk sac. If the yolk sac is reasonably small, which it usually is if they were out of their egg, then I rinse them in the warm trickling tap water to get the schmutz and vermiculite off of them, and then I put them into a pre-filled warm soaking tub. I then put the lid back on the shoebox and put the rest of the eggs back into the incubator. Next I turn on the bird brooder, set the temp, and prepare their brooder boxes. Normally I limit it to 6 babies to a box, but I make an exception to 8 on day one. Tomorrow these guys will be divided up in to smaller groups of no more than six. If you don't have a bird brooder, this step can be done in the incubator, but I like the bird brooder because it gets them started on a day/night cycle with the lights, while the incubator is just always dark inside.
> 
> I used to use paper towels on the bottom of the brooder boxes, and if I don't have anything else, I still will on day one or two only. I prefer to use grape leaves, broadleaf plantain leaves, or large mulberry leaves. I alternate through these three. I also add in different grasses, weeds, leaves, baby opuntia pads, flowers, and grocery store greens for them to nibble on. In these first few days, I try to introduce them to new foods every day for at least two weeks before repeating anything. This makes for babies that will literally eat anything you put in front of them, which is why I'm always bitching at people to NOT let their tortoises have access to anything toxic with the incorrect assumption that the tortoises know better and won't eat the wrong stuff. My babies will, but I do this so they will eat a huge variety of the right stuff for their new owners.
> 
> I also leave some of their egg shells in with them for a few days. They don't seem to do anything with them, but I want them to have the option.
> View attachment 302201
> 
> 
> My bird brooder box has a fan that runs 24/7. I place the tub of water directly under the fan to keep humidity up and reduce the wind on my shoe boxes. As long as I have room, I keep the rain water spray bottle in there to keep the water in it warm. I can fit up to nine shoe boxes in the brooder at once.
> View attachment 302202
> 
> 
> Every day, I remove the old leaves and food, and soak them for 15-20 minutes in their brooder boxes. While they soak, I go outside and get fresh leaves and food for their new boxes. When they've soaked enough, I spray them off with my rain water and put them into their freshly made up clean boxes with a wet shell. Then they go back into the bird brooder for another day. This goes on for anywhere from 7 -10 days. Why 7-10 days? I'm glad you asked. This is about how long it takes for them to absorb their yolk sac and have the umbilical scar close up and heal. I do not think babies should be in an enclosure and on substrate until the yolk sac is absorbed and the umbilical scar completely closed up. I see many breeders making this mistake.
> 
> Here is what these babies looked like today. I'll do a daily progression on them to show how quickly it absorbs and heals up if people would just keep them in a brooder box instead of in a dry enclosure on substrate.
> View attachment 302210
> View attachment 302211
> View attachment 302212
> 
> 
> Comments and questions are welcome.


These are the cutest little creatures! They are perfect


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## Texastravis

Tom, any updated photos of the parents this year? I struggle to see the difference between other sulcatas. I hope yours get big!


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## Tom

Texastravis said:


> Tom, any updated photos of the parents this year? I struggle to see the difference between other sulcatas. I hope yours get big!


I haven't taken any pics lately.

Sudans have higher domes and get much larger. Regular sulcatas, mostly from Mali, have a more sloped back. Sudan males top out at 250+ pounds. I've seen one that was estimated at 380-400 pounds. Regular males top out around 130 pounds. Females of both types seldom exceed 80-90 pounds, but an occasional large female does happen.

For many years the guys breeding Sudans just put them on the market as "sulcatas", not thinking anyone would care that these were from a different locale. This being the case, mutts abound. I bought my Sudans directly from the breeder, so there is no doubt.


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## AgataP

Tom said:


> This little guy has an unusual anomaly. He's got rough serrations on the sides of his shell. I feel it every time I pick him up in and out of the soak water. Hard to see in the pics, but very noticeable when you touch him. I wonder how these serrations will develop or fade as this one grows.
> View attachment 302770
> View attachment 302771
> View attachment 302773



Tom these are so beautiful. Congratulations on another successful batch of beauties. They are so adorable.
I am truly happy that I am lucky enough to be able to get all the advice from you to provide my tortoise with the best care!

I just want to hold them all and take pictures between leaves and flowers.


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## Tom

AgataP said:


> Tom these are so beautiful. Congratulations on another successful batch of beauties. They are so adorable.
> I am truly happy that I am lucky enough to be able to get all the advice from you to provide my tortoise with the best care!
> 
> I just want to hold them all and take pictures between leaves and flowers.


I have another batch hatching right now.


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## AgataP

Tom said:


> I have another batch hatching right now.


Record a time lapse video ?? 
Oh Tom I feel like there is a road trip your way at some point when I am in California. You always welcome here as well door is always open.


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## Texastravis

Tom said:


> I haven't taken any pics lately.
> 
> Sudans have higher domes and get much larger. Regular sulcatas, mostly from Mali, have a more sloped back. Sudan males top out at 250+ pounds. I've seen one that was estimated at 380-400 pounds. Regular males top out around 130 pounds. Females of both types seldom exceed 80-90 pounds, but an occasional large female does happen.
> 
> For many years the guys breeding Sudans just put them on the market as "sulcatas", not thinking anyone would care that these were from a different locale. This being the case, mutts abound. I bought my Sudans directly from the breeder, so there is no doubt.



I had a guy I was messaging tell me he used to have a 33" female sulcata 200+ pounds. I call bullony. My large male is the largest sulcata I have seen in person actually and was 36-37" before his gular broke. I estimate over 220 pounds but he does not have the geometry/shape of a Sudanese tortoise. I cannot keep smaller females with him at all for fear of murder. I actually ordered some materials to weigh him so I will know exactly soon. My largest female is also the largest female I have seen in person and she is very close to 26". I weighed her a year or 2 ago and she was 115. Fluctuates with water weight.


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## Tom

Texastravis said:


> I had a guy I was messaging tell me he used to have a 33" female sulcata 200+ pounds. I call bullony. My large male is the largest sulcata I have seen in person actually and was 36-37" before his gular broke. I estimate over 220 pounds but he does not have the geometry/shape of a Sudanese tortoise. I cannot keep smaller females with him at all for fear of murder. I actually ordered some materials to weigh him so I will know exactly soon. My largest female is also the largest female I have seen in person and she is very close to 26". I weighed her a year or 2 ago and she was 115. Fluctuates with water weight.


I know of one 150 pound female. Its pretty unusual, but it happens.

At 220, or any where near that, your male must have some Sudanese genetics somewhere.


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## Texastravis

Tom said:


> I know of one 150 pound female. Its pretty unusual, but it happens.
> 
> At 220, or any where near that, your male must have some Sudanese genetics somewhere.


This is him, I will post again once I know his exact weight.


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