# What's in that leaf, grocery and garden, published nutrient list.



## Kapidolo Farms

*Romaine* today, something else tomorrow. That's how this thread could work. I'll do my best to find nutrient content, please send me a PM here on TFO if there is a specific thing you want to see sooner rather than later.

https://ndb.nal.usda.gov/ndb/foods/show/35073?manu=&fgcd=&ds=

I have a hard time copy and pasting charts, they get jumbled, but here it is for romaine and the source. Romaine is not "BAD" at all. Go the the link to see the chart not so jumbled.

Source: USDA Branded Food Products Database Release October 2017 Software v.3.8.6.4 2017-10-02
Report Run at: November 01 2017 19:14 EDT
Nutrient data for: 45035522, OCEAN MIST FARMS, ROMAINE, UPC: 000651041001
Food Group: Branded Food Products Database
Common Name:
Nutrient Unit Data points Std. Error 
(1.5 cup = 85.0g _the first value)_ ( _per 100 g for the second value_) These value are for "as served" so do not remove water as a constituent.
Proximates
Energy kcal -- -- 15 (first value is 15 grams for 1.5 cups) 18 (second value is 18 grams per hundred grams)
Protein g -- -- 1 1.18
Total lipid (fat) g -- -- 0 0
Carbohydrate, by difference g -- -- 3 3.53
Fiber, total dietary g -- -- 2 2.4
Sugars, total g -- -- 1 1.18
Minerals
Calcium, Ca mg -- -- 20 24
Iron, Fe mg -- -- 0.72 0.85
Sodium, Na mg -- -- 5 6
Vitamins
Vitamin C, total ascorbic acid mg -- -- 21 24.7
Vitamin A, IU IU -- -- 2500 2941
Lipids
Fatty acids, total saturated g -- -- 0 0
Fatty acids, total trans g -- -- 0 0
Cholesterol mg -- -- 0 0
Amino Acids
Other
Ingredients
ROMAINE. Date available: 07/14/2017 Date last updated by company: 07/14/2017


Sp from this we can see that romaine has 1.18 grams of protein per 100 grams of leaf. As it is near 90% water that means that the protein per dry gram is about 20%. But all that water is there, so it's not too much protein as the water to 'process' it in the gut is present.


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## Kapidolo Farms

*Pumpkin *today, seems like a controversial food item from Facebook post that sound like it causes instant death, to the idea it will cure your tortoise of worms. Neither of these claims would be true by-the-way.

https://ndb.nal.usda.gov/ndb/foods/...c&qlookup=pumpkin&ds=&qt=&qp=&qa=&qn=&q=&ing=

PDF attached of the USDA profile, maybe that will work better?

One of the wolf cries about pumpkin is high sugar content, measured as total carbs and as sugars. Both are about twice romaine. At a rate of 5% pumpkin one feeding a week it is most likely your tortoise will NOT have a pre-diabetic blood glucose count. I have not done an actual blood glucose on tortoises fed pumpkin, I an extrapolating based on other high ration food items.

One of the articles in the "tortoise Library" pretty well dismisses the idea that pumpkin is an effective wormer. 

On the plus side, pumpkin is indeed nutritious. The plant makes those things on purpose so animals will come eat them and poop out seeds all over the place. The pumpkin has collaborated with animals for a long time towards this end. Pumpkins are not that derived from selective culture. If anything they are more water and less nutrient packed than the wild base fruit that the pumpkin is.


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## Yvonne G

@Will : Endive?


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## Kapidolo Farms

*Pisum sativum *is both *snow peas *and *snap peas *https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snow_pea
https://www.feedipedia.org/node/7047 I made a pdf of a sub-node in their database for "Pea, aerial part, fresh ' which I assume means all the part that is alive above ground, leaves, stem, flowers, and peas.


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## Kapidolo Farms

*Endive *is a few things https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endive In my opinion the single best grocery store green to seek, another leaf form is called Frisee. I prefer what grocery stores label as Escarole. If you open the link for the wiki page, notice they too have a nutrient chart in a right sidebar.
*
Endive *https://ndb.nal.usda.gov/ndb/foods/show/2966?manu=&fgcd=&ds=
*Radicchio* https://ndb.nal.usda.gov/ndb/foods/show/3562?manu=&fgcd=&ds=
*Escarole* https://ndb.nal.usda.gov/ndb/foods/show/251463?manu=&fgcd=&ds=
*Chicory *https://ndb.nal.usda.gov/ndb/foods/show/2922?manu=&fgcd=&ds=


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## Kapidolo Farms

An ambiguous name for a few things...
*Lemon Grass * _Elyonurus muticus _https://www.feedipedia.org/node/445 ("Do not quote" warning at site)
_*Cymbopogon *_species https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cymbopogon and is also known as
*Citronella* https://ndb.nal.usda.gov/ndb/foods/show/3580?manu=&fgcd=&ds=

Citronella is a common name for the lemon grasses and I have fed this to tortoises. If they eat it, sparingly, it does not seem to be harmfull. It's not a 'soft' grass and has coarse hairs. Not favorite, but great fiber.


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## Kapidolo Farms

*garland chrysanthemum* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glebionis_coronaria who knew?

I bought this and fed it out just because I'm like that. Got it from H-mart in San Diego. I tried a little bit and don't recall anything remarkable about the flavor. I placed it in the diet at such a low % I also don't recall that any tortoises cared about it one way or the other.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S030162260500388X?via=ihub Fed to sheep in this report.





as found in grocery stores.


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## Kapidolo Farms

*Oyster Mushrooms* _Pleurotus _https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pleurotus

Crazy horrible Calcium : Phosphorus ratio like 1:40 but _Manouria impressa_ like it so much. No doubt in part why adults have such large fenestration*.

*a small natural hole or opening, especially in a bone. Usually when tortoises hatch all the bone is not filled in on their shells, it's sorta web like.




all those 'gaps' are fenestra.


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## Kapidolo Farms

I felt the nudge of neglect on this thread and my wonderful tortoise wife gave that extra little push.

*Butter lettuce, green leaf lettuce,* and *red leaf lettuce*. 

All these have a push at about 3:2 C : P so not stellar but certainly not bad. As pointed out they are all not so good for fiber. And fiber is a really big deal, it allows the intestines to pack the food into little bolus like globs so the tortoises can move that bolus from the _small intestines into the big intestines and then back into the small intestines_. 

Fiber is not some microscopic thing, it's large bits of stuff that is somewhat indigestible, like "Wow, that whole blade of grass came through." size things. For giant tortoises that is bigger things as fiber than a 25 gram neonate. So actual grasses fed with these lettuces make good use of both items.

Grasses are not the only 'more' fiber to include, opuntia, and tree/shrub leaves work too.


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## Kapidolo Farms

I felt the nudge of neglect on this thread and my wonderful tortoise wife gave that extra little push.

*Butter lettuce, green leaf lettuce,* and *red leaf lettuce*. 

All these have a push at about 3:2 C : P so not stellar but certainly not bad. As pointed out they are all not so good for fiber. And fiber is a really big deal, it allows the intestines to pack the food into little bolus like globs so the tortoises can move that bolus from the _small intestines into the big intestines and then back into the small intestines_. 

Fiber is not some microscopic thing, it's large bits of stuff that is somewhat indigestible, like "Wow, that whole blade of grass came through." size things. For giant tortoises that is bigger things as fiber than a 25 gram neonate. So actual grasses fed with these lettuces make good use of both items.

Grasses are not the only 'more' fiber to include, opuntia, and tree/shrub leaves work too.


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## Kapidolo Farms

*Mushrooms* all have horrible C : P ratios. But some tortoises have such a strong inclination to eat them.


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## RosemaryDW

You know @Will, I have never really understood exactly why the calcium to phosphorus level is so important. I know that itis important! But I can’t explain it. Could you describe it in a way that someone like me—not a biologist—can understand? Using as few words as possible!?


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## Kapidolo Farms

RosemaryDW said:


> You know @Will, I have never really understood exactly why the calcium to phosphorus level is so important. I know that itis important! But I can’t explain it. Could you describe it in a way that someone like me—not a biologist—can understand? Using as few words as possible!?


http://www.anapsid.org/mbd2.html maybe exactly what you are NOT looking to read?

In short, for each atom or molecule of phosphorus the body needs a like unit of calcium. Metabolic processes will grab that calcium from anywhere it can, including skeletal (shell) calcium. It's much easier to add calcium to the diet to create this balance, than sort out foods low in phosphorus, which is also an essential nutrient. The recommendation for reptiles in general and tortoises in general is 2:1 C: P, some 'authorities' go as high as 30:1.


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## Team Gomberg

Will said:


> http://www.anapsid.org/mbd2.html maybe exactly what you are NOT looking to read?
> 
> In short, for each atom or molecule of phosphorus the body needs a like unit of calcium. Metabolic processes will grab that calcium from anywhere it can, including skeletal (shell) calcium. It's much easier to add calcium to the diet to create this balance, than sort out foods low in phosphorus, which is also an essential nutrient. The recommendation for reptiles in general and tortoises in general is 2:1 C: P, some 'authorities' go as high as 30:1.



You explained this very well. Thank you!.


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## RosemaryDW

Will said:


> http://www.anapsid.org/mbd2.html maybe exactly what you are NOT looking to read?



Pretty much, lol.


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## Yvonne G

@Will 

I would like to know about alfalfa (I feed alfalfa pellets occasionally) and zucchini.


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## Kapidolo Farms

USDA list only shows sprouts. *ALFALFA* and I think many folks use micro greens so that may be a good thing to look at 

Sprouts https://ndb.nal.usda.gov/ndb/foods/show/2815?manu=&fgcd=&ds=

Then the list at feedipedia show many ways alfalfa can be fed

https://www.feedipedia.org/node/275 take note that as you scroll down through the nutrient data files (all one page) you go from dehydrated, to other treatments (fresh, hay, etc.) 

Alfalfa is one of the few pellets and hays that can be found readily that is USDA certified organic. I am finder more respect for this. The benefits transcend what we feed out animals, it also reduces what is sprayed overall, and that effects the wild guys out there too.


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## Markw84

Will said:


> USDA list only shows sprouts. *ALFALFA*
> .




I actually like this resource. It is for Guinea pig husbandry, but the chart they make takes all food items and focuses on Protein, Ca, Phos, Magn, and then the Ca ratios. Really good info for us as Ca, Phos and Magnesium are the key elements for proper Calcium absorption, along with D3


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## Kapidolo Farms

*Zucchini * as a stand alone item is well mixed in with other things based on how grocery stores and seed packet sellers have come to use the word. I have seen "yellow Zucchinni" to describe sorta straight crook neck squash, and now I see "mexican gray squash" for what looks like zucchini to me. These values are for what gets hits for zucchini in the databases listed.

USDA https://ndb.nal.usda.gov/ndb/foods/show/3180?manu=&fgcd=&ds= they call is summer squash which can mean a few things. One, that it readily grows and is available in summer months, but also it is one of the thin skinned squashes where ingesting the skin is common. Winter squashes tend to have thicker skin, often not consumed, and have a later growing season, so with both the thicker skin and later growing season can be stored better and are often consumed throughout the winter.

Good news is they tend to have more C : than : P or a positive C: P ratio

Feedipedia only lists "pumpkin" which is a term used in many languages to describe all squashes.
https://www.feedipedia.org/node/44 already shown in https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/w...-published-nutrient-list.161833/#post-1541331 via the USDA link.

Crook neck squash https://ndb.nal.usda.gov/ndb/foods/show/3173?manu=&fgcd=&ds=

All summer squash varities as one item, I have no idea how they did the match to merge them all. https://ndb.nal.usda.gov/ndb/foods/...sc&qlookup=squash&ds=&qt=&qp=&qa=&qn=&q=&ing=

Needless to say yet again, squash is good and can even be fed out frequently as the season change which one you add to the diet, AT A LOW RATE of inclusion. I use about 5% as that rate which will also mean not squash for vegetable inclusion a few times each week. Sometimes I will use carrots at about 1-2 %, or okra, or sweet potato at the 5% amount, or less of each for a total of 5%. These things are represented in wild diets in one form or another.


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## Kapidolo Farms

*Dandelion *greens

https://ndb.nal.usda.gov/ndb/foods/show/2960?manu=&fgcd=&ds=

It is true that store dandelions and 'found in the backyard' are different, but 'technically' the same species. What's in your backyard has adapted to your specific environment (meaning climate, lawn watering patterns, and even to some extent your mowing frequency). Those that are cultivated have adapted to that care regime. I have not found any tortoises to seek them out in preference to other greens, but Testudo types are extremely attracted to the flowers.


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## Kapidolo Farms

*Plantain *the weedy plant, not the banana like thing

https://www.feedipedia.org/node/114

One thing I notice the crazy good C: P ratio and the high potassium. I have heard concern regarding high potassium in the diets of long lived iguanas, (Caribbean Cyclura). To some extent based on wild diets for those lizards. They too are long lived (60 years plus). Are any of you tortoise diet folks aware of this nutrient as a stand alone or in combination with other nutrients causing some kind of issue when found in higher proportion diet items???

The specific regard was that potassium might also create an unfavorable calcium utility. I also consider that maybe the person who expressed the concern flipflopped Potassium with Phosphorus? Anyone that can share something on this please do.


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## Kapidolo Farms

*Arugula* A pretty decent C: P ratio https://ndb.nal.usda.gov/ndb/foods/show/3569?manu=&fgcd=&ds= High vitamin A and K as well.

I notice when I don't feed it for several days and then it rotates back in to the mix, the Egyptians and Pancakes seem enthused to get it. It's one of my favorite greens too.


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## Bambam1989

Do you have any info on nipplewort and deadnettle?


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## Kapidolo Farms

Bambam1989 said:


> Do you have any info on nipplewort and deadnettle?



*Nipplewort* The tortoise table speaks well of it http://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/plant-database/viewplants/?plant=260&c=6#.WkGkgyMrLpQ

Some one with more focus than I said no nutrient data could be found https://books.google.com/books?id=Q...=onepage&q=nipplewort nutrient values&f=false

Not listed at feedipedia


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## Kapidolo Farms

*Dead nettle *_Lamium purpureum_

http://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/...ords&searchtxt=Lamium+&x=12&y=13#.WkGniSMrLpQ 

No real nutrient info other than a mindless repetition by herb bloggers saying how good it is.

FWIW I began reading the TTT's forum. They speak much softer than they publish on their page. I'm "will" there too.


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## Via Infinito

Hello please I need information on Pintoi Peanut ( a type of grass) and Axonopus Compressus!


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## Kapidolo Farms

Via Infinito said:


> Hello please I need information on Pintoi Peanut ( a type of grass) and Axonopus Compressus!


 Great suggestions! 

_*Arachis pintoi*_ *Pinto peanut*
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arachis_pintoi wow, very interesting history

https://www.feedipedia.org/node/702 it has a 15: 1 C: P ratio, that alone is pretty darn good.


_*Axonopus compressus *_a forage grass
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axonopus_compressus low growing shade tolerant grass, wow, another good plant to consider

https://www.feedipedia.org/node/498 about a 2:1 C; P ratio, so good enough to have something in a shaded area.


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## Yvonne G

Will said:


> *Arugula* A pretty decent C: P ratio https://ndb.nal.usda.gov/ndb/foods/show/3569?manu=&fgcd=&ds= High vitamin A and K as well.
> 
> I notice when I don't feed it for several days and then it rotates back in to the mix, the Egyptians and Pancakes seem enthused to get it. It's one of my favorite greens too.


None of my tortoises like it. I was assuming because of the pungent scent.


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## Via Infinito

Will said:


> Great suggestions!
> 
> _*Arachis pintoi*_ *Pinto peanut*
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arachis_pintoi wow, very interesting history
> 
> https://www.feedipedia.org/node/702 it has a 15: 1 C: P ratio, that alone is pretty darn good.
> 
> 
> _*Axonopus compressus *_a forage grass
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axonopus_compressus low growing shade tolerant grass, wow, another good plant to consider
> 
> https://www.feedipedia.org/node/498 about a 2:1 C; P ratio, so good enough to have something in a shaded area.


 Thank you so much! These two are the main bulk of my tortoise diet so now I know it is grazing on the good stuff


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## Bambam1989

How about nasturtium, snapdragons, and pansies?
Just got a bunch of seeds for this spring
*doing the happy gardener dance*


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## Kapidolo Farms

Bambam1989 said:


> How about nasturtium, snapdragons, and pansies?
> Just got a bunch of seeds for this spring
> *doing the happy gardener dance*


_*Tropaeolum* _aka *nasturtium*

wiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tropaeolum all parts are edible 

TTT http://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/plant-database/viewplants/?plant=258&c=5#.Wk-0ZVWnFaQ Edible, but high in oxalic acid, so feed in moderation. My take on oxalic acid is that it is not a concern in a highly varied diet.

USDA https://ndb.nal.usda.gov/ndb/foods/...lookup=nasturtium&ds=&qt=&qp=&qa=&qn=&q=&ing=

calls it watercress and provides a nutrient breakdown. The Wiki page's first paragraph sheds understanding on this.

_*Antirrhinum* _aka *Snap Dragons*

wiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antirrhinum no comment on nutrients, but not comment regarding toxicity either. Has anti-inflammatory properties.

TTT http://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/plant-database/viewplants/search/? searchtogglestatus=&searchchoice=exactwords&searchtxt=Antirrhinum&x=11&y=9#.Wk-2S1WnFaQ safe to feed 

*Pansies*

wiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pansy

TTT http://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/...actwords&searchtxt=pansy&x=9&y=7#.Wk-3wVWnFaQ safe to feed

Many plants cultivated for garden flowers do not have actual nutrient content list that I can find. Just a dichotomy of poisonous or not 
poisonous. The often best place to find warning is in herbal medicine pages, where the text is a cut and paste from somewhere else with no reference.


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## RosemaryDW

How about grape leaves? They’re good but just how good?


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## Kapidolo Farms

RosemaryDW said:


> How about grape leaves? They’re good but just how good?


*Vitus vinifera Grape leaves and shoots* 

Feedipedia https://www.feedipedia.org/node/512 C: P is 7:1.5 (that's good, no great), protein at about 9%, and high fiber.

Be sure to look at information in both the 2nd and third tab of each account that I post from Feedipedia.

Description

Nutritional aspects

Nutritional tables

References

TTT http://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/plant-database/viewplants/?plant=138&c=4#.Wk_vAVWnFaQ feed in moderation the leaves, no fruit.

USDA https://ndb.nal.usda.gov/ndb/foods/show/3582?manu=&fgcd=&ds= similar to Feedipedia

I have found palate-ability to be high, especially with younger leaves and shoot tips. But even old dropped leaves can offer fiber to balance the lack of it in grocery greens like Romaine.

This is some text from Feedipedia 
"Grape leaves and vine shoots are relatively poor in protein and rich in fibre. Grape leaves have a better protein content (7-14% of DM) than vine shoots (3-7% of DM), and a lower fibre content (ADF 18-39% _vs_. 25-57% of DM). Vine shoots are particularly rich in lignin (10-25% of DM). The protein content of vine shoots declines rapidly after the grape harvest: shoots collected at harvest had twice the protein content of those collected 30 days after harvest (6.2 _vs. _3.0% of DM) (Kok et al., 2007). Storage affects the fibre content. In fresh vine shoots or those stored outside for up to 8 months, crude fibre increased from about 38-39% for the first 3 months to 42-45% of DM for the remaining period. Lignin increased gradually from about 10 to 20% of DM or more during the last 3 months (Tartari et al., 1979a)."

AND

"Grapes leaves and shoots contain high and variable amounts of condensed tannins that may impair digestibility. Condensed tannins bind to plant proteins and cell wall carbohydrates thereby decreasing protein and fibre digestibility (Waghorn, 2008). However, tannins may have beneficial effects such as increasing by-pass protein in ruminants and decreasing gas production, thus reducing gas emissions (Makkar, 2003). Tannins that have been reported to reduce palatability in some forages do not appear to have a negative effect on the intake of grape leaves by sheep (Romero et al., 2000). Grape leaves have been reported to contain 2-10% of DM as condensed tannins (Gurbuz, 2007; Kamalak, 2005; Romero et al., 2000)."


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## Kapidolo Farms

*dombeya *

TTT not listed
Feedipedia not listed
USDA not listed

https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/plantox/detail.cfm?id=2764 A Poisonous plant list.
*COMMON NAME*: 
*STANDARD COMMON NAME*: 
*FAMILY*: _Malvaceae_ 
*LATIN NAME*: _Dombeya nairobensis Engl._ 
*STANDARD PLANT NAME*: _Dombeya nairobensis Engl._ 

*COMMON NAME*: dombeya 
*STANDARD COMMON NAME*: 
*FAMILY*: _Sterculiaceae_ 
*LATIN NAME*: _Dombeya elegans_ 
*STANDARD PLANT NAME*: _Dombeya elegans K. Schum._ 
No comment about how or why it is poisonous. The second fda citation uses the current latin Family name.

It seems risky!


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## Kapidolo Farms

On the contrary...

_*Pieris japonica*_, the *Japanese andromeda*

https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/plantox/detail.cfm?id=21737
*AUTHOR(S)*: Pizzi, R.; Goodman, G.; GunnMoore, D.; Meredith, A.; Keeble, E.
*TITLE*: Pieris japonica intoxication in an African spurred tortoise (Geochelone sulcata).
*YEAR*: 2005 *CITATION*: Vet Rec, 156(15), 487-488 [English]
*FDA* #: NA

Full text https://s3.amazonaws.com/academia.e...=Pieris_japonica_intoxication_in_an_Afric.pdf

TTT http://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/...twords&searchtxt=Pieris&x=10&y=7#.WlVQKq6nFaQ DO NOT FEED


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## Yvonne G

@Will - can you find info on weeds? I'm curious about filaree.


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## Kapidolo Farms

_*Erodium cicutarium*_, also known as *redstem filaree*, *redstem stork's bill*, *common stork's-bill* or *pinweed.*

Feedipedia lists two species from this genus.

https://www.feedipedia.org/node/158 AND
https://www.feedipedia.org/node/159 

neither of which is the species from the wiki page

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erodium_cicutarium

TTT shows two species, one with a 'sparingly' sign and one with a feed sign. http://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/...twords&searchtxt=filaree&x=0&y=0#.Wle_x66nFaQ
*
*
Based on the feedipedia accounts they are nutritionally near identical. The C: P ratio is about 5:1 so no worries there. It tastes good based on my own palate. I imagine more than the potential of fish killing saponins that TTT has mentioned as their 'sparingly" caution - that the dry seeds could be hard to swallow if they got into the feeding path of a tortoises.


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## TammyJ

Any info on Sea Grape? The Caribbean Cyclura love it (the fruit, not too sure about the leaves).


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## MichaelaW

TammyJ said:


> Any info on Sea Grape? The Caribbean Cyclura love it (the fruit, not too sure about the leaves).


That grows like crazy here on the south Texas Mexico border!


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## Kapidolo Farms

TammyJ said:


> Any info on Sea Grape? The Caribbean Cyclura love it (the fruit, not too sure about the leaves).



*Coccoloba uvifera or Sea Grape*
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coccoloba_uvifera

"Suitable for human consumption"
http://hort.ifas.ufl.edu/database/documents/pdf/tree_fact_sheets/cocuvia.pdf

Many sources and recipes for making use of the fruit for human consumption and observations that cattle eat it, but no detail on it's nutrient value for cattle or other hoof-stock let alone rabbits or chickens etc.

I've seen Iguanas eat it in Puerto Rico.


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## Kapidolo Farms

*Bell pepper Capsicum annuum*

Wiki
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_pepper

USDA
Green
https://ndb.nal.usda.gov/ndb/foods/...p=raw+bell+pepper&ds=&qt=&qp=&qa=&qn=&q=&ing=

Red and Green dehydrated
https://ndb.nal.usda.gov/ndb/foods/...w+red+bell+pepper&ds=&qt=&qp=&qa=&qn=&q=&ing=

TTT
http://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/plant-database/viewplants/?plant=632&c=8#.WrPUIi7wZaQ
"This plant comes from the same family as tomatoes, potatoes, tobacco and the nightshades, and although the pepper itself is not actually toxic to tortoises (and a small amount will not harm them), the leaves, stem and roots are toxic and should not be fed. "


So I feed bell peppers when I can get alot for cheap, and them it gets blended in with other things. Poor C: P ration of 1: 4 so calcium might be an addition on a bell pepper meal for sure. Why feed it at all? The seeds are good for gut/food bolus motility, the bright red color is attractive to tortoises, and keeping variety going on is important. I'd rate it at maybe a few % of diet for one meal every other week or so. All the benefits can be acquired through other diet items less the variety aspect.


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## Via Infinito

My reptilian vet recommended these 2
Sauropus androgynus (also katuk) and my Sulcata is absolutely obsessed with it!
Moringa oleifera (also drumstick tree)


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## MichaelaW

Has anyone heard of _Entada Gigas_, or Sea Heart?


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## Salspi

Borage plant?
Thank you


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## Kapidolo Farms

*Virginia Creeper* _Parthenocissus quinquefolia_

Wiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parthenocissus_quinquefolia

TTT https://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/plant-database/viewplants/?plant=342&c=4#.Wt-lbG4vxaQ

USDA https://plants.usda.gov/plantguide/pdf/pg_paqu2.pdf

There is no Feedipedia entry.

This past weekend I watched a California Desert Tortoise eat creeper leaves with great gusto, over mulberry leaves at that! This plant has some weird history. Apparently it was consumed in moderation by native Americans. The TTT site suggests the issue is the berries being high in oxolates. There are wishy washy accounts of people (small children eating a great many berries) passing away from it. Just thought I'd put this here for any specific response someone might have.


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## Kapidolo Farms

Via Infinito said:


> My reptilian vet recommended these 2
> Sauropus androgynus (also katuk) and my Sulcata is absolutely obsessed with it!
> Moringa oleifera (also drumstick tree)




*Moringa* _Moringa oleifera_

wiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moringa

Feedipedia https://www.feedipedia.org/node/12344

no TTT entry.

The WHO suggests this plant could be a global strategy to ending hunger for many people. http://www.fao.org/traditional-crops/moringa/en/

It's a high quality plant as tortoise food. There are many threads in TFO regarding Moringa.


*katuk*, *star gooseberry*, or *sweet leaf *_Sauropus androgynus_

wiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sauropus_androgynus has some nutirent data on the left side column.

TTT no entry

Feedipedia no entry


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

Salspi said:


> View attachment 236800
> 
> Borage plant?
> Thank you



*Borage *_Borago officinalis_

Wiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borago AND https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borage

TTT https://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/plant-database/viewplants/?plant=450&c=6#.Wt-sXG4vxaQ

The second wiki link suggests it is okay to eat, TTT does not cite sources, anyone, anyone?


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

MichaelaW said:


> Has anyone heard of _Entada Gigas_, or Sea Heart?



*monkey-ladder*, *sea bean*, *cœur de la mer *or *sea heart *_Entada_gigas_

wiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entada_gigas

Feedipedia no entry

TTT no entry

No reason to draw any conclusion. I found no entry, not even for goats eating it. I might be slipping?


----------



## MichaelaW

Will said:


> *monkey-ladder*, *sea bean*, *cœur de la mer *or *sea heart *_Entada_gigas_
> 
> wiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entada_gigas
> 
> Feedipedia no entry
> 
> TTT no entry
> 
> No reason to draw any conclusion. I found no entry, not even for goats eating it. I might be slipping?


I couldn't find much info on it either.


----------



## Salspi

Will said:


> *Borage *_Borago officinalis_
> 
> Wiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borago AND https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borage
> 
> TTT https://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/plant-database/viewplants/?plant=450&c=6#.Wt-sXG4vxaQ
> 
> The second wiki link suggests it is okay to eat, TTT does not cite sources, anyone, anyone?



TTT is saying do not feed due to calcium phosphorus ratio. Did I see that correctly? It’s eaten by humans for a long, long time in Italy. Not sure what to believe here.


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

Salspi said:


> TTT is saying do not feed due to calcium phosphorus ratio. Did I see that correctly? It’s eaten by humans for a long, long time in Italy. Not sure what to believe here.


If the C: P is like 1.1:1.2 no big deal, not good, but not horrible. If it's 1:15, then I would not use it, but TTT does not cite sources. I did not find the C: P ratio.


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

Many of my garden hibiscus have become robust enough to endure a half dozen trimmed bits everyday. I place them around in enclosures and they are completely consumed by when I get home from work, along with the regular salad feed. The small mulberry trees I have are not in leaf yet, but I look forward to using them as well. This got me thinking about what other trees could work as daily small pruning, evergreen over deciduous for year round use, at least for the mild climate of southern California. I did some searches on google with wording like this, 'trees with edible leaves', 'tree leaves for fodder' and got hits like this...

https://www.cabdirect.org/cabdirect/abstract/19620602070 which lists _Albizia lebbeck, Delonix regia, Gliricidia sepium, Leucaena leucocephala._

Other searches bring up the well know Mulberry and Moringa, but also _Terminalia catappa_, _Toona sinesnsis, _and_ Crataegus monogyna. _Most of these have been mentioned here on TFO at one time or another.

So lets Wiki, and Feedipedia these trees...

*Albizia lebbeck:* silk tree
Feedipedia https://www.feedipedia.org/node/334
Wiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albizia_lebbeck

_*Delonix regia: *_flame tree
feedipedia https://www.feedipedia.org/node/308
Wiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delonix_regia

*Gliricidia sepium: *quickstick
Feedipedia https://www.feedipedia.org/node/552
Wiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gliricidia_sepium

_*Leucaena leucocephala: *_White leadtree
Feedipedia https://www.feedipedia.org/node/282
Wiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leucaena_leucocephala

_*Terminalia catappa:* _Indian Almond
Feedipedia only mentioned as an aside for rat feed trial sorting out the lectin toxicity. Figured essentially non-toxic.
Wiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminalia_catappa

*Toona sinesnsis: *Chinese mahagony
Feedipedia no result
Wiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toona_sinensis

_*Crataegus monogyna: *_Hawthorne
Feedipedia no result
Wiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crataegus_monogyna

All of these are listed as fodder for people, goats, cattle, chickens, some have had toxicity tests done with rats, all have some caution for not eating too much of it (what does not?). The first four are legumes and have a higher protein content than many other plants - it's important to understand that protein content as fed fresh aerial parts (often reported with water removed from the calculation) seem too high, but again I'll ask that you recall many plants that are feed like plantain, have a high protein content too. All of these, where the values are reported have a 2:1 to as high as 20:1 C: P ratio. In all, as part of a mix of diet items, if offered alongside other foods, these would all make a reasonable addition to backyard harvested food to feed tortoises.


----------



## Gopherus Guy

I use Grape leaves, Yellow Squash, Romaine lettuce, Green Beans, Collard Greens, plus he’ll munch on an occasional backyard weed. I also use an occasional sprinkle of Calcium, Hibiscus Flower & leaves.
I hope this diet is OK. He turns 53’ish this summer. He’s one happy guy! [emoji217]


----------



## Salspi

How is purslane? It grows wild in my garden


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

purslane

wiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portulacaceae
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portulaca

Tortoise Table https://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/plant-database/viewplants/?plant=321&c=6#.WyAcVO4vxaQ

No Feedipedia account

USDA https://ndb.nal.usda.gov/ndb/foods/show/302037?manu=&fgcd=&ds=&q=Purslane, raw

I'd say not a worry, but not a primary food, which to me means less that a few % of weekly total food offered. If free range in an area with a wide vairety I'd hope they would not choose to eat it in abundance, but wouldn't worry so much about it either.


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

Will said:


> *Romaine* today, something else tomorrow. That's how this thread could work. I'll do my best to find nutrient content, please send me a PM here on TFO if there is a specific thing you want to see sooner rather than later.
> 
> https://ndb.nal.usda.gov/ndb/foods/show/35073?manu=&fgcd=&ds=
> 
> I have a hard time copy and pasting charts, they get jumbled, but here it is for romaine and the source. Romaine is not "BAD" at all. Go the the link to see the chart not so jumbled.
> 
> Source: USDA Branded Food Products Database Release October 2017 Software v.3.8.6.4 2017-10-02
> Report Run at: November 01 2017 19:14 EDT
> Nutrient data for: 45035522, OCEAN MIST FARMS, ROMAINE, UPC: 000651041001
> Food Group: Branded Food Products Database
> Common Name:
> Nutrient Unit Data points Std. Error
> (1.5 cup = 85.0g _the first value)_ ( _per 100 g for the second value_) These value are for "as served" so do not remove water as a constituent.
> Proximates
> Energy kcal -- -- 15 (first value is 15 grams for 1.5 cups) 18 (second value is 18 grams per hundred grams)
> Protein g -- -- 1 1.18
> Total lipid (fat) g -- -- 0 0
> Carbohydrate, by difference g -- -- 3 3.53
> Fiber, total dietary g -- -- 2 2.4
> Sugars, total g -- -- 1 1.18
> Minerals
> Calcium, Ca mg -- -- 20 24
> Iron, Fe mg -- -- 0.72 0.85
> Sodium, Na mg -- -- 5 6
> Vitamins
> Vitamin C, total ascorbic acid mg -- -- 21 24.7
> Vitamin A, IU IU -- -- 2500 2941
> Lipids
> Fatty acids, total saturated g -- -- 0 0
> Fatty acids, total trans g -- -- 0 0
> Cholesterol mg -- -- 0 0
> Amino Acids
> Other
> Ingredients
> ROMAINE. Date available: 07/14/2017 Date last updated by company: 07/14/2017
> 
> 
> Sp from this we can see that romaine has 1.18 grams of protein per 100 grams of leaf. As it is near 90% water that means that the protein per dry gram is about 20%. But all that water is there, so it's not too much protein as the water to 'process' it in the gut is present.




https://ndb.nal.usda.gov/ndb/foods/...ookup=raw+romaine&ds=&qt=&qp=&qa=&qn=&q=&ing=


----------



## Bronbowie

Will said:


> *Endive *is a few things https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endive In my opinion the single best grocery store green to seek, another leaf form is called Frisee. I prefer what grocery stores label as Escarole. If you open the link for the wiki page, notice they too have a nutrient chart in a right sidebar.
> *
> Endive *https://ndb.nal.usda.gov/ndb/foods/show/2966?manu=&fgcd=&ds=
> *Radicchio* https://ndb.nal.usda.gov/ndb/foods/show/3562?manu=&fgcd=&ds=
> *Escarole* https://ndb.nal.usda.gov/ndb/foods/show/251463?manu=&fgcd=&ds=
> *Chicory *https://ndb.nal.usda.gov/ndb/foods/show/2922?manu=&fgcd=&ds=



Bought me some seeds to grow for fall. Will let you know if my leopard tortoise likes it.


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

Bronbowie said:


> Bought me some seeds to grow for fall. Will let you know if my leopard tortoise likes it.



There are many, dozens, of native rabbits so gardening is a challenge. The more things I grow the more rabbits come. I wish the local coyote would do more to help me out. 

I have many 1/2 plastic drum surrounded with chicken wire growing things, squirrels figure I do that so they can have first dibs over the rabbits.


----------



## KarenSoCal

Will said:


> There are many, dozens, of native rabbits so gardening is a challenge. The more things I grow the more rabbits come. I wish the local coyote would do more to help me out.
> 
> I have many 1/2 plastic drum surrounded with chicken wire growing things, squirrels figure I do that so they can have first dibs over the rabbits.


I have the same problem with rabbits. After they chew on anything I've planted, they come to a waterer that's for the birds. They step in it and soak, then stretch out and lounge in the sun for a while. I swear they smirk at me and laugh, Chug's greens stuck in their teeth, all the while putting the middle toe of the front foot in the air! [emoji2]


----------



## PA2019

@Will 

I want to add another dried weed to my herbal mix and am debating between stellaria media, capsella bursa-pastoris, and malva spp. They all are priced within $3 of each other, and I want to choose the one with the widest range of beneficial nutrients. 

I am having trouble finding a published nutrient list for mallow leaves, and also chickweed.


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

_Stellaria media _*Common Chickweed
*
Wiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stellaria_media
TTT https://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/plant-database/viewplants/?plant=86&c=6#.W2h6blVKhaQ
But see this about the alarmist regard for saponins https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saponin
USDA Nutrient database no account
Feedipedia No onsite database but they refer to this article https://www.cambridge.org/core/jour...en-macerated/549D5894C3A797C082861F9982871BCF
with free access here https://static.cambridge.org/resour...0805:S0021859697004759:S002185969700475Xa.pdf

_Capsella bursa-pastoris _ *Shepard's purse* (the seeds look like a goat scrotum)
Wiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capsella_bursa-pastoris
TTT https://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/plant-database/viewplants/?plant=297&c=6#.W2h9VFVKhaQ
In this case the alarmists at TTT are concerned with it being goitrogenic, a concern that arose based on the swollen necks of Aldabra and Galapagos tortoises. There is indeed a single Vet journal entry relating goitrogenic foods with swollen necks in tortoises, that has been bemoaned by its author based on further-later study. The Thyroid gland is in the neck, so it was a reasonable 'cause and effect' idea, but now the focus is on the thymus being the corrupted organ in those giant tortoises. Still not a resolved issue what's going on with those necks, but this condition has been found in-situ, so NOT a result of eating kale or shepherd's purse.
Feedipedia, no account
It is considered an "important fodder species" in India https://www.researchgate.net/public...Fodder_Plant_Species_of_Ladakh_Himalaya_India

_Malva _one type is called *cheese weed*
Wiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malva
TTT https://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/plant-database/viewplants/?plant=6&c=5#.W2iBkVVKhaQ
They look at a few species of the many. 
Feedipedia no account
There are many many papers that look at various mallows as fodder for animals, most are published pre-internet and in an english language.

You might notice a bit of an attitude regarding the TTT in my written tone. Frankly, they take liberties* with information and post it, where others (readers) regard it as biblical in importance. The publishers of TTT are fighting hard against the low variety, feed them what they 'like', and offer treats - mentality to tortoise diets. It is a very hard fight and one I hope they succeed more at than not. But it has also created zealots that don't think outside the TTT box. These zealots often prowl around on Facebook, pouncing on anyone feeding something that TTT suggests be fed in moderation or not at all, things that are good foods.

* (from the account for shepherd's purse) "Please be aware that two or more goitrogenic plants should not be fed in conjunction with each other, and the sum total of goitrogenic foods should not exceed the guideline for a single plant of 'in moderation' (amber-green) or 'sparingly' (amber-red). This will ensure that goitrogenic consumption stays within safe limits." (Really, the guideline, what guideline based on what study? Safe limits?)

@PA2019 I'd stick with adding the mallow for the chance of not getting into a debate with a TTT zealot. I don't use too many weeds, but I have used all of these. The tortoises seem to pick and choose, and I think it has something to do with the maturity of the leaves at the time they are offered. I find this with Mulberry and Hibiscus as well.


----------



## RosemaryDW

Will said:


> *Shepard's purse* (the seeds look like a goat scrotum)



Folks *do not *fact check this statement; you will regret it; Just take Will’s word for it!


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

Image taking a class called 'weeds science' in college 'cause you're an Ag major, and having this be on a weekly pop quiz, worth 2 points? A fact you should know for Jeopardy.


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

Air Potato Vine _*Dioscorea bulbifera*_

Wiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dioscorea_bulbifera

Feedipedia https://www.feedipedia.org/node/540 This is for a different species, but offer some idea about the nutrients in the ariel part?

TTT No data

USDA food nutrient data base For the tuner only https://ndb.nal.usda.gov/ndb/foods/...qlookup=dioscorea&ds=&qt=&qp=&qa=&qn=&q=&ing=

With 600 species ans some made into many cultivars it would be difficult to know precisely what may or may not be a best practice using this plant as tortoise food.


----------



## PA2019

Will said:


> _Stellaria media _*Common Chickweed
> *
> Wiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stellaria_media
> TTT https://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/plant-database/viewplants/?plant=86&c=6#.W2h6blVKhaQ
> But see this about the alarmist regard for saponins https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saponin
> USDA Nutrient database no account
> Feedipedia No onsite database but they refer to this article https://www.cambridge.org/core/jour...en-macerated/549D5894C3A797C082861F9982871BCF
> with free access here https://static.cambridge.org/resour...0805:S0021859697004759:S002185969700475Xa.pdf
> 
> _Capsella bursa-pastoris _ *Shepard's purse* (the seeds look like a goat scrotum)
> Wiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capsella_bursa-pastoris
> TTT https://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/plant-database/viewplants/?plant=297&c=6#.W2h9VFVKhaQ
> In this case the alarmists at TTT are concerned with it being goitrogenic, a concern that arose based on the swollen necks of Aldabra and Galapagos tortoises. There is indeed a single Vet journal entry relating goitrogenic foods with swollen necks in tortoises, that has been bemoaned by its author based on further-later study. The Thyroid gland is in the neck, so it was a reasonable 'cause and effect' idea, but now the focus is on the thymus being the corrupted organ in those giant tortoises. Still not a resolved issue what's going on with those necks, but this condition has been found in-situ, so NOT a result of eating kale or shepherd's purse.
> Feedipedia, no account
> It is considered an "important fodder species" in India https://www.researchgate.net/public...Fodder_Plant_Species_of_Ladakh_Himalaya_India
> 
> _Malva _one type is called *cheese weed*
> Wiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malva
> TTT https://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/plant-database/viewplants/?plant=6&c=5#.W2iBkVVKhaQ
> They look at a few species of the many.
> Feedipedia no account
> There are many many papers that look at various mallows as fodder for animals, most are published pre-internet and in an english language.
> 
> You might notice a bit of an attitude regarding the TTT in my written tone. Frankly, they take liberties* with information and post it, where others (readers) regard it as biblical in importance. The publishers of TTT are fighting hard against the low variety, feed them what they 'like', and offer treats - mentality to tortoise diets. It is a very hard fight and one I hope they succeed more at than not. But it has also created zealots that don't think outside the TTT box. These zealots often prowl around on Facebook, pouncing on anyone feeding something that TTT suggests be fed in moderation or not at all, things that are good foods.
> 
> * (from the account for shepherd's purse) "Please be aware that two or more goitrogenic plants should not be fed in conjunction with each other, and the sum total of goitrogenic foods should not exceed the guideline for a single plant of 'in moderation' (amber-green) or 'sparingly' (amber-red). This will ensure that goitrogenic consumption stays within safe limits." (Really, the guideline, what guideline based on what study? Safe limits?)
> 
> @PA2019 I'd stick with adding the mallow for the chance of not getting into a debate with a TTT zealot. I don't use too many weeds, but I have used all of these. The tortoises seem to pick and choose, and I think it has something to do with the maturity of the leaves at the time they are offered. I find this with Mulberry and Hibiscus as well.



@Will Thank you very much for the information.

Regarding the change in focus towards the thymus, I would love to know if the organ in a tortoise changes in the same manner that it does in humans. I recently dissected an 84 y/o in my cadaver lab, and it was incredibly difficult to differentiate the thymus from the surrounding adipose tissue. Does it normally begin to shrink and become replaced by fat in giant tortoise species over time as well? 

When I first starting researching plants to both feed and grow in my pens I leaned heavily on TTT for guidance. Once I found TFO, I shifted from a 'good vs bad' view towards my current focus on variety (hence my original question). I am thankful that I had access to TTT when I first started, but my thoughts also mirror you in some respects to the site.


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/ploughshare-angonoka-yniphora.47342/page-24#post-1623694

Peanut Butter Fruit _Bunchosia argentea
_
Wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bunchosia_argentea
Feedipedia No account
USDA No account
TTT No account

Some general GeeWiz accounts
https://dengarden.com/gardening/Tropical-Taste-of-Hawaii-The-Peculiar-Peanut-Butter-Fruit
https://www.atlasobscura.com/foods/peanut-butter-fruit
http://www.specialtyproduce.com/produce/Peanut_Butter_Fruit_13580.php

Where to buy
https://www.daleysfruit.com.au/fruit pages/peanut.htm
https://kensnursery.com/product/peanut-butter-fruit-tree-bunchosia-argentea/

@emystiong Do you feed the leaves?


----------



## KarenSoCal

How about broccoli leaves? I know broccoli has a horrible Cah ratio. I've never seen them for sale before, but got some the other day. Lots of other veggies we only feed leaves...


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

KarenSoCal said:


> How about broccoli leaves? I know broccoli has a horrible Cah ratio. I've never seen them for sale before, but got some the other day. Lots of other veggies we only feed leaves...



Some Gee Wiz pages
http://www.slate.com/blogs/browbeat...are_broccoli_leaves_any_good_a_vegetable.html
https://gardenmentors.com/garden-he...w-to-harvest-eat-your-broccoli-leaves-recipe/
https://www.thinkingnutrition.com.au/broccoli-bad-for-you/
https://www.medicaldaily.com/dark-s...ould-cruciferous-vegetables-be-bad-you-267892

New web page I found just for this interest, it has many foods we (tortoises) eat ... http://calorielab.com
http://calorielab.com/foods/broccoli/broccoli-leaves-raw/143/11739/0 so a 48:66 C: P ratio, not good, but another meal with calcium supplements may balance, I think a compelling reason to try broccoli leaves would sell me. Maybe just for the variety, so once a month 10 % of the greens in one day's rations?


----------



## KarenSoCal

Will said:


> Some Gee Wiz pages
> http://www.slate.com/blogs/browbeat...are_broccoli_leaves_any_good_a_vegetable.html
> https://gardenmentors.com/garden-he...w-to-harvest-eat-your-broccoli-leaves-recipe/
> https://www.thinkingnutrition.com.au/broccoli-bad-for-you/
> https://www.medicaldaily.com/dark-s...ould-cruciferous-vegetables-be-bad-you-267892
> 
> New web page I found just for this interest, it has many foods we (tortoises) eat ... http://calorielab.com
> http://calorielab.com/foods/broccoli/broccoli-leaves-raw/143/11739/0 so a 48:66 C: P ratio, not good, but another meal with calcium supplements may balance, I think a compelling reason to try broccoli leaves would sell me. Maybe just for the variety, so once a month 10 % of the greens in one day's rations?


Sounds good...thank you. Now we'll see if he likes them!


----------



## Stoneman

Thank you Will! You are so smart! Did you study biology? 

Do you know of any compilations of recommended daily allowance for species of tortoises? I have been wanting to get my hands on one but I can't seem to find one anywhere.


----------



## Stoneman

Will said:


> *Plantain *the weedy plant, not the banana like thing
> 
> https://www.feedipedia.org/node/114
> 
> One thing I notice the crazy good C: P ratio and the high potassium. I have heard concern regarding high potassium in the diets of long lived iguanas, (Caribbean Cyclura). To some extent based on wild diets for those lizards. They too are long lived (60 years plus). Are any of you tortoise diet folks aware of this nutrient as a stand alone or in combination with other nutrients causing some kind of issue when found in higher proportion diet items???
> 
> The specific regard was that potassium might also create an unfavorable calcium utility. I also consider that maybe the person who expressed the concern flipflopped Potassium with Phosphorus? Anyone that can share something on this please do.


I studied nutrition, as a hobby, and as an elective in college. So I am by no means an expert. I believe the person who was concerned about its relationship with calcium had it confused with phosphorus. Potassium is a micronutrient, and of the micronutrients, it is an electrolyte. The most important electrolytes (in humans at least) are sodium and potassium. Often absorbed as potassium chloride and sodium chloride. They are essential for neurological functions, cardiovascular functions, and overall energy levels. I think this might be why they eat dog poop, and carrion. So they can get micronutrients like this not commonly found in plants. I will sprinkle small amounts of both on my tortoise feed from time to time.


----------



## Kaeloni

KarenSoCal said:


> I have the same problem with rabbits. After they chew on anything I've planted, they come to a waterer that's for the birds. They step in it and soak, then stretch out and lounge in the sun for a while. I swear they smirk at me and laugh, Chug's greens stuck in their teeth, all the while putting the middle toe of the front foot in the air! [emoji2]



That’s hilarious! I never thought of rabbits being such pests! We used to have deer eat our plants until the stray dog problem got so bad that the deer disappeared. I’d love to see a pic of these rabbits!


----------



## KarenSoCal

Kaeloni said:


> That’s hilarious! I never thought of rabbits being such pests! We used to have deer eat our plants until the stray dog problem got so bad that the deer disappeared. I’d love to see a pic of these rabbits!


I'll see if I can get one.


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

_*Combretum indicum *_Bush Williow
general wiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combretum
specific wiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combretum_indicum
Feedipedia (different species) https://www.feedipedia.org/search/node/Combretum


----------



## ColaCarbonaria

I was thinking about occasionally adding chopped honeycomb to the daily salad mix to up the fiber content. My friend is a beekeeper so I’ve got access to all natural comb. The research I’ve found says that ppl boil it and skim the chafe off the top then it’s ready for sale for human consumption. I’m thinking of leaving it as is (not boiling it) which would have all kinds of dead baby bees and whatever else is in honeycomb after the honey is extracted. My thought process says leave it natural and not boil, but that’s why I’m asking. So 2 things, is there any reason not to try this, and should I boil or not?


----------



## Cowboy_Ken

What critter are y’all thinkin’ of feedin’ this to?


----------



## ColaCarbonaria

Cowboy_Ken said:


> What critter are y’all thinkin’ of feedin’ this to?



Tortoises


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

https://savannahbee.com/blog/what-is-honeycomb/

Is Honeycomb Nutritious? Honeycomb is basically beeswax and raw honey. The beeswax has very little nutritional value with the exception of trace amounts of vitamin A. However since our system does not break down beeswax, it is a very good source of roughage.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beeswax


I tend to be a try a little of anything cautiously. I'd skip the beeswax. Fiber has an actual purpose as a substrate fir the muscle along the intestinal walls to act on so they can move food along. I think the wax would not facilitate that.


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

*Collards Brassica oleracea
*
Wiki : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collard_greens
USDA: https://ndb.nal.usda.gov/ndb/foods/...kup=Collards,+raw&ds=&qt=&qp=&qa=&qn=&q=&ing=

killer good C: P ratio. As goitrogenic foods are more myth than reality with tortoises, this represents a good food item to rotate in and out once a week or so.

As a browse http://www.nrcresearchpress.com/doi/pdfplus/10.4141/CJAS09002


----------



## Gopherus Guy

I feed daily with other greens, squash, grape leaves etc.


----------



## William Lee Kohler

Gopherus Guy said:


> I feed daily with other greens, squash, grape leaves etc.



Surprised have not seen Chard on here. How about Green Chard?


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

Swiss (green) Chard, _Beta vulgaris _

USDA https://ndb.nal.usda.gov/ndb/foods/...Chard,+swiss,+raw&ds=&qt=&qp=&qa=&qn=&q=&ing=

Wiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chard

The Tortoise Table https://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/plant-database/viewplants/?plant=176&c=8#.XBlXU2hKhaQ

Feedipedia https://www.feedipedia.org/node/534

So more or less a 'variety' of beets which is interesting. High calcium, but I found it's very hard to find references to how much of that might already be bound (not available) with oxalate). 



William Lee Kohler said:


> Surprised have not seen Chard on here. How about Green Chard?


----------



## CandyAss

Have you done cilantro already? I looked through the thread and didn't see it, but I'm also catching up on last night's Saturday Night Live at the same time.
Thanks for this thread, it's great!


----------



## RosemaryDW

Which have more calcium, radish or turnip leaves?


----------



## SPILL

Are you able to find anything on mango leaves? How about fenugreek greens/methi?


----------



## Okapizebra

Hi, I see this thread has been dug up and I had a question if anyone knew the answer. 

I see delonix regia listed here from a post in may 2018, but the feedipedia page only gives nutrient info on the seed pods. The seed pods on this tree are incredibly tough and I can't imagine a tort eating them. Does anyone happen to know if the leaves or flowers are edible for tortoises? And nutrient info on them? They are everywhere around here and I'd love to take advantage of that if I can. Thanks!


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

I've neglected this thread for a bit, sorry about that. I'll seek to carve time out to answer info requests, and I made it a 'watched' thread now too.

What brings me back is that I found a rater rare composition of a commonly fed item, at least for folks in more tropical areas. I pulled it from a PhD thesis and only copied the two tables that get to the nutrient content of the item, Banana leaf, petiole, and stalk.

If you want more of the text let me know. I'll be watching this thread better.


----------



## Yvonne G

Bok Choy is one of the brassicas, like cabbage. It is quite nutritious with
vitamins A and C, and minerals such as calcium. Any cabbage is just fine used as
a part of a varied diet. Those with dark green leaves (such as bok choy) or the
especially the red cabbages provide excellent nutrition. So there is no reason
to avoid them.

The brassicas contain glucosinolates, in particular the goitrogens, so if it is
overused and iodine is not replaced in some way, there could be health issues
over many years, such as the growth of a goiter. Providing cuttlebone, or other
source of trace iodine (for instance, seaweed), solves the problem and allows
the tortoise to eat these excellent foods.

The "good foods / bad foods" paradigm for feeding tortoises is a highly flawed
concept that eliminates far too many excellent sources of high quality nutrition
and ignores how tortoises eat in the wild. Use all types of plants, always in
moderation, and provide calcium in a separate form so that the animals can
self-regulate. Cuttlebone is a very good choice for this, as it also provides
trace iodine.

Mary at the turtle Puddle


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

Yeah, that!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Yvonne G said:


> The "good foods / bad foods" paradigm for feeding tortoises is a highly flawed
> concept that eliminates far too many excellent sources of high quality nutrition
> and ignores how tortoises eat in the wild. Use all types of plants, always in
> moderation, and provide calcium in a separate form so that the animals can
> self-regulate. Cuttlebone is a very good choice for this, as it also provides
> trace iodine.
> 
> Mary at the turtle Puddle


----------



## RosemaryDW

Stoneman said:


> I The most important electrolytes (in humans at least) are sodium and potassium. Often absorbed as potassium chloride and sodium chloride. They are essential for neurological functions, cardiovascular functions, and overall energy levels. I think this might be why they eat dog poop, and carrion. So they can get micronutrients like this not commonly found in plants. I will sprinkle small amounts of both on my tortoise feed from time to time.



Did anyone else read this as @Stoneman sprinkles dog poop and carrion on his tortoise feed?


----------



## KarenSoCal

RosemaryDW said:


> Did anyone else read this as @Stoneman sprinkles dog poop and carrion on his tortoise feed?


I think he sprinkles NaCl (salt), and KCl (potassium chloride) directly on the food. But your interpretation is sure what it reads like! Yuck!


----------



## Yvonne G

RosemaryDW said:


> Did anyone else read this as @Stoneman sprinkles dog poop and carrion on his tortoise feed?


No, I didn't.


----------



## RosemaryDW

KarenSoCal said:


> I think he sprinkles NaCl (salt), and KCl (potassium chloride) directly on the food. But your interpretation is sure what it reads like! Yuck!



I think he does, too. But yes, my quick takeaway was “Wat?”


----------



## Yvonne G

@Kapidolo Farms :

Years ago I received correspondence from HealX asking if I would be willing to try their palm oil on my giant tortoises. The product is called Sunshine Factor and it is certified organic Brazilian Dende (red palm fruit) oil. I said sure, what the heck, but for whatever reason, I never really gave it a good enough try to be able to give them any feedback.

I have a few jars in my pantry, and it got me to thinking. I'm seeing a lot of pictures of tortoises here on the Forum with very dry skin. We tell them to soak the tortoise, but what if there's an oral product that would work better than soaking? We give dogs oral supplements for dry coat, and we take oral supplements for healthy skin, so why not give the tortoise palm oil for his dry skin?

Can we have your opinion on this please? (the only ingredient is Brazilian dende (red palm fruit) oil)

This is the brain-washing article put out by the manufacturer:

*SUNSHINE FACTOR – Here are the facts*
THURSDAY, OCTOBER 10TH, 2013


We feel it’s a good idea to go over the cover these bases from time to time as they are common questions regarding Palm Fruit Oil.

CLAIM 1: Sunshine Factor is simple palm oil.
FACT-CHECK: Incorrect.
Sunshine Factor is made from red palm FRUIT oil. There is a very significant difference, and there are many commercially available sources of simple palm oil, but few of red palm fruit oil.
Palm fruit oil is a cholesterol-free member of the _vegetable oil_ _family_. It has been erroneously grouped together with coconut oil and palm kernel oil under the “tropical oil family,” which are known as high-cholesterol or trans-fat oils. Palm fruit oil is one of the most nutritionally filled vegetable oils currently on the market.
Red palm fruit oil originates from the flesh of the fruit from the palm tree _Elaeis guineensis. _This oil is not hydrogenated or processed and contains no trans-fats. It has a dark orange to red color.
Palm fruit oil is naturally semi-solid at room temperature and does not require hydrogenation. It is an excellent replacement for partially hydrogenated fats for many reasons. Like other edible fats and oils, palm fruit oil is easily digested, absorbed and used to maintain a healthy metabolism.
http://www.trustedpartner.com/docs/library/000087/RedPalmOilweb.pdf

CLAIM 2: Use of Sunshine Factor results in high LDL cholesterol, clogs arteries, causes heart disease due to high levels of saturated fats and varying other negative claims.
FACT-CHECK: Incorrect.
In human studies, the general properties of red palm fruit oil include the following: decreased incidence of arteriosclerosis, lowered blood cholesterol, decreased occurrence of blood clots by increasing vasodilatation, lowered incidence of strokes and heart attacks and improved immune function. Red palm fruit oil has also been reported as a “chemopreventative drug,” because it has been shown to inhibit the growth of breast cancer cells and improve the effectiveness of tamoxifen therapy.

Red palm fruit oil is considered to be one of the richest natural sources of carotenoids. The benefits of carotenoids in humans include their antioxidant and anticancer effects. These antioxidants scavenge free radicals. The accumulation of free radicals in human medicine has been associated with heart disease, cellular aging, cancer, arthritis and Alzheimer’s disease. Carotenoids are needed for the growth and repair of body tissues, the formation of bones and teeth, the resistance to infection, the development of healthy eye tissues and proper cellular function and differentiation. Red palm fruit oil contains beta-carotene, alpha-carotene, lycopene and phytoene. Beta-carotene can be converted to vitamin A as required by the body. Alpha-carotene may also be converted to vitamin A and has been found in human medicine to be superior in the inhibition of some forms of cancer in cell-culture studies.

Red palm fruit oil is rich in multiple forms of vitamin E. Although it is often assumed that there is only one type of vitamin E, there are actually eight different forms. These include four tocopherols (alpha, beta, gamma, delta) and four tocotrienols (alpha, beta, gamma, delta). Most diets only contain alpha-tocopherol; however, the tocotrienols are considered to be far superior in their antioxidant effects. The general properties of the tocopherols and tocotrienols in human medicine include the following: inhibit the enzyme that controls the rate of cholesterol synthesis, decrease LDL and triglycerides, raise HDL, increase immune function, have anticancerogenic properties, lower risk of cataract formation and modulate the formation of prostaglandins controlling a component of the inflammatory cascade. Palm fruit oils are the richest natural source of antioxidants, such as tocotrienols, which may exhibit activity against tumor promotion and, in turn, inhibit certain types of cancer. Tocotrienols may also have the ability to reverse blockage of the carotid artery and platelet aggregation, which reduces the risk of stroke, arteriosclerosis and heart disease.

In one human study, 31 subjects took a palm fruit oil supplement every day for 30 days. No other changes were made to their diets. They continued to eat whatever they desired. The results showed that palm fruit oil supplementation _lowered both total cholesterol and LDL (bad) cholesterol_ in all volunteers. The magnitude of reduction of total cholesterol ranged from 5 to 35.9 percent and the reduction of LDL cholesterol ranged from 0.9 to 37 percent. What was even more important was the effect the palm fruit oil had on the cholesterol ratio. The cholesterol ratio was reduced in 78 percent of the subjects, demonstrating a highly significant and favorable response to supplementation (Tan, 1991).

CLAIM 3: Sunshine Factor is associated with deforestation and the devastating loss of natural orangutan environments in Malaysia and other areas in the South Pacific.
FACT-CHECK: Incorrect.
Sunshine Factor is made using Brazilian farmed red palm fruit oil. Sunshine Factor is a sustainable agricultural product grown on long established farms. It is not harvested from tropical rainforests in locations where burning for new plantations continues to add to the destruction of tropical rainforests and threaten endangered wildlife. Our farms are members of the Roundtable on Sustainable Palm Oil (RSPO).

Changes of note seen in usage of Sunshine Factor in birds, reptiles, dogs, cats, and other small mammals.
– Improvement in coats/plumage
– Improvement in skin quality
– Increased and more consistent energy levels particularly in senior patients
– Decreased usage of arthritis medications
– Lowered blood cholesterol levels
– Improved weight gain and health in pediatric patients
– Increased the effectiveness of antihistamines for allergy patients


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

I have subsequently found that zucchini has D3 in it. Fruit and leaves. https://kapidolofarms.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/19Espenshade-TTPGwithNOTES.pdf. Page 16 has the reference.



Kapidolo Farms said:


> *Zucchini * as a stand alone item is well mixed in with other things based on how grocery stores and seed packet sellers have come to use the word. I have seen "yellow Zucchinni" to describe sorta straight crook neck squash, and now I see "mexican gray squash" for what looks like zucchini to me. These values are for what gets hits for zucchini in the databases listed.
> 
> USDA https://ndb.nal.usda.gov/ndb/foods/show/3180?manu=&fgcd=&ds= they call is summer squash which can mean a few things. One, that it readily grows and is available in summer months, but also it is one of the thin skinned squashes where ingesting the skin is common. Winter squashes tend to have thicker skin, often not consumed, and have a later growing season, so with both the thicker skin and later growing season can be stored better and are often consumed throughout the winter.
> 
> Good news is they tend to have more C : than : P or a positive C: P ratio
> 
> Feedipedia only lists "pumpkin" which is a term used in many languages to describe all squashes.
> https://www.feedipedia.org/node/44 already shown in https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/w...-published-nutrient-list.161833/#post-1541331 via the USDA link.
> 
> Crook neck squash https://ndb.nal.usda.gov/ndb/foods/show/3173?manu=&fgcd=&ds=
> 
> All summer squash varities as one item, I have no idea how they did the match to merge them all. https://ndb.nal.usda.gov/ndb/foods/...sc&qlookup=squash&ds=&qt=&qp=&qa=&qn=&q=&ing=
> 
> Needless to say yet again, squash is good and can even be fed out frequently as the season change which one you add to the diet, AT A LOW RATE of inclusion. I use about 5% as that rate which will also mean not squash for vegetable inclusion a few times each week. Sometimes I will use carrots at about 1-2 %, or okra, or sweet potato at the 5% amount, or less of each for a total of 5%. These things are represented in wild diets in one form or another.


----------



## sorciere

Hi Will,
Can you please check the *Clitoria ternatea*, or bluebellvine? I’m planning to plant them to get shade for my tort enclosure. 
Here is a picture of the plant.


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

Damn good find!
https://www.feedipedia.org/node/318. You will see tabs near the top of the window, under the name of the actual plant.
*Butterfly pea (Clitoria ternatea)*

*Datasheet*

*Description*
*Nutritional aspects*
*Nutritional tables*
*References*

Look at each tab for the information related to the particular plant as that aspect of it.










Clitoria ternatea - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org







sorciere said:


> Hi Will,
> Can you please check the *Clitoria ternatea*, or bluebellvine? I’m planning to plant them to get shade for my tort enclosure.
> Here is a picture of the plant.
> View attachment 296043


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/335106038_Evaluation_of_Nutritional_and_Anti-nutritional_Compositions_of_Leaves_of_Maiden_Hair_Tree_Found_in_Nigeria



Why Nigeria? Because that's where the study was done. All the other labs around the world focus myopically on the super nutrient aspects.

GINKGO
_Ginkgo biloba_

No nodes or links in the USDA food database, Feedipedia, TTT, anywhere else that I found. That paper linked above is what I could find. Organic will land at www.KapidoloFarms.com soon.


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

Mimosa aka Silk Tree, has many common and latin names.

it's been abused by taxonomists (LOL) from the wiki "_Albizia julibrissin_ is known by a wide variety of common names, such as *Persian silk tree* and *pink siris*. It is also called *Lenkoran acacia* or *bastard tamarind*, though it is not too closely related to either genus. The species is called *Chinese silk tree*, *silk tree* or *mimosa* in the United States, which is misleading - the former name can refer to any species of _Albizia_ which is most common in any one locale. And, although once included in _Mimosa_, neither is it very close to the Mimoseae. To add to the confusion, several species of _Acacia_, notably _Acacia baileyana_ and _Acacia dealbata_, are also known as "mimosa" (especially in floristry), and many Fabaceae trees with highly divided leaves are called thus in horticulture."

Wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albizia_julibrissin
genus info. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albizia

http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.954.5961&rep=rep1&type=pdf. jump to page 74. But also consider all the other food tree sources listed, it's a great deal of reading.

Feedipedia:
*Chinese albizia (Albizia chinensis). *Click on the tabs I inserted here, the four categories of info.
*Datasheet*

*Description*
*Nutritional aspects*
*Nutritional tables*
*References*

And TTT: https://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/plant-database/viewplants/?plant=246&c=4#.XuIym55Kgbk. list it as highly toxic, even though the tree, its pods and leaves are routinely used for fodder in many food animals. Again, the result of someone using 'BIG WORDS' that does not know what they mean. I am pretty close to suggesting TTT is useless.

This addition to this thread was by request @Yvonne G has one in the sulcata yard, and he never eats any of it. This would tend to indicate herbivores, like carnivores tend to specialize what they eat based on familiarity, not abundance. Lions, as an example, become habituated to preying on certain hoof stock, almost to the point of ignoring other edible animals in their range.


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

*Hosta, aka Plantain lily*. I did not know these were called Plantain Lily, never heard that term until I recently bought some for a non-tortoise part of the yard. The nursery guy said I'd want to get some snail bait. I told no-thanks, I'll harvest snails from them for my tortoises. 

Wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hosta. look specifically at the note on toxicity, it is considered a vegetable plant for people. 

Commonly eaten by rabbits, deer, squirrels and voles. I have rabbits and squirrels in abundance, damn it.

TTT Says :Feed in moderation - High in saponins; so only feed in moderation as part of a varied diet. Said to be toxic to dogs, cats and horses. 

Feedipedia has no entry for the genus of plants.

And, so what's in. that's good?








Analysis of essential macro-micro mineral content of twelve hosta taxa


Hosta is a perennial ornamental herb, sometimes consumed as a vegetable in Japan. We evaluated the leaf mineral content of twelve hosta plant taxa, na…




reader.elsevier.com




It looks like the C: P ratio is upside down for our tortoise wants.


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

Hey guys, here is some nutrient data not available anywhere else that I have found. I commissioned this analysis, and am posting it here for the TFO community to see. I'll post it on my webpage when I get the rest of the results (a complete amino acid profile).

It's Soursop leaves, a native food for redfoots and yellowfoots. It's also considered a super food, and for that the published accounts are many. But no basic, nutrient profile or fiber profile, stuff us tortoise keepers might want to know. I'll have some at Kapidolo Farms soon. 

Also commissioned is the same analysis for the Ginkgo, that will be on Kapidolo Farms web page when complete.

In the mean time, please note, I really care to get the best stuff for tortoise food. Stuff that is organic sourced as is most of the product line.

Tree leaves have a consistent higher calcium: Phosphorus ratio and fiber profile than weedy plants or grasses. And all the tortoise that hang out under trees will eat tree leaves, that's pretty much all of them.

I'm still seeking more good tortoise foods. If you did not notice from the TFO marketplace, all food orders in September ship with two free ounces of organic sourced Cactus flour. FLOUR not flower. It's cactus pad dried and ground up into a flour like consistency. It sprinkles on food like calcium powder, but more palatable. Of course not as full of calcium as straight calcium powder so a bit more frequently than two to three times a week is suggested. It does have much fiber though, so that brings something into the diet that straight calcium powder does not have.


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

Here's the analysis for Ginkgo.



Kapidolo Farms said:


> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/335106038_Evaluation_of_Nutritional_and_Anti-nutritional_Compositions_of_Leaves_of_Maiden_Hair_Tree_Found_in_Nigeria
> 
> 
> 
> Why Nigeria? Because that's where the study was done. All the other labs around the world focus myopically on the super nutrient aspects.
> 
> GINKGO
> _Ginkgo biloba_
> 
> No nodes or links in the USDA food database, Feedipedia, TTT, anywhere else that I found. That paper linked above is what I could find. Organic will land at www.KapidoloFarms.com soon.


----------



## Spotsmom2020

Kapidolo Farms said:


> *Pisum sativum *is both *snow peas *and *snap peas *https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snow_pea
> https://www.feedipedia.org/node/7047 I made a pdf of a sub-node in their database for "Pea, aerial part, fresh ' which I assume means all the part that is alive above ground, leaves, stem, flowers, and peas.


So can they eat them? I'm new here and not sure how to read these...


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

I did not intend to confuse. They are both okay, as part of a wide varied diet. the problem with many foods is not the food, but the keeper. They will tend to project onto the tortoise a 'favorite' then over feed it. Moderation is the key. Something like this, maybe 5% of once per week meal for grassland or xeric species, twice to three times for forest species.




Spotsmom2020 said:


> So can they eat them? I'm new here and not sure how to read these...


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

I have both Rooibos and Honeybush at Kapidolo Farms. Here are the test results on what they contribute to the diet. Once again TFO readers get data published no where else. 

Both have a good high fiber content, a positive C: P ratio, can be used as soakers (partly why I sought them out) and of coarse they are organic sourced. Early feed back from those who got samples suggest the honeybush is a driver for eating (it does smell like fruit?), while the rooibos is 'just another thing for variety'. I made up several dozen small sample bags - to get one you need to request it in your order in the box labeled 'note to vendor'. Too many extra instructions via email, some txt or PM format, and as after thoughts get unresolved.

In the world of organic sourced tortoise (herbivorous reptile foods) Kapidolo Farms in number 1.


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

yes.


Spotsmom2020 said:


> So can they eat them? I'm new here and not sure how to read these...


----------



## Moozillion

Will- is this thread for ANY tortoise species in general? My Elsa is a Hermann’s, and I may be giving her a more narrow range of foods than I probably should. 
GREAT thread! ?


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

Frankly it's for any animal, leaving what is appropriate to you on how/if to use it.

I have found with products in my online store that there is a split between people who buy based on the species or genus listed for a variety pack versus a nutrient attribute labeled variety pack. One are called 'testudo munch' while another is called 'all aminos'. Many of the same things in both. It's more about how people process information, or what 'sounds' good. Many people just do what their friend dose without much thought at all. 

One person will share their purchase of Testudo Munch on social media, and over the next few days I might get dozens of orders for it. Because they like the name and their friend bought it. Some of those same people, and I have spoken with many customers on the phone, will object to the items in the variety pack, when listed as AllAminos and told what aminos are. Too much protein.

The point of this thread is so people can see what's in a food. I started it based on my disgust with the tortoise table. They discount foods' utility for the wrong or inappropriate reasons - reducing the variety people might feed, and in effect do wrong, in my opinion. They conflict themselves in a few instances that I have noticed, like dandelions are a moderate feed with the more information as -

"Dandelions are a firm favourite with tortoises, and although they can be quite high in oxalates (with the older leaves having the highest content), and they also have mild diuretic properties, it is perfectly safe to feed them as part of a wider, varied diet."

- yet many other foods they will place in the 'do not feed group based on oxalates.

That last bit "...it is perfectly safe to feed them as part of a wider, varied diet" should be on so many more of their accounts. 

Look here for a comparative of common fed grocery store available greens. (note they quote their source) http://russiantortoise.org/nutritional_analysis_of_kale.htm

The more I play with the day to day diet of some of the tortoises I keep, the more I see that water and fiber are the two most critical factors, and the tortoises' gut sorts out what they need. That of course is a gross simplification, but not too much so.




Moozillion said:


> Will- is this thread for ANY tortoise species in general? My Elsa is a Hermann’s, and I may be giving her a more narrow range of foods than I probably should.
> GREAT thread! ?


----------



## MEEJogja

Kapidolo Farms said:


> An ambiguous name for a few things...
> *Lemon Grass * _Elyonurus muticus _https://www.feedipedia.org/node/445 ("Do not quote" warning at site)
> _*Cymbopogon *_species https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cymbopogon and is also known as
> *Citronella* https://ndb.nal.usda.gov/ndb/foods/show/3580?manu=&fgcd=&ds=
> 
> Citronella is a common name for the lemon grasses and I have fed this to tortoises. If they eat it, sparingly, it does not seem to be harmfull. It's not a 'soft' grass and has coarse hairs. Not favorite, but great fiber.


What a fantastic thread!

It led me on a bit of a googling adventure this morning. I hope I'm not polluting this thread too much by sharing... I once went to a market and came home with some 'citronella'. It was a revelation to me that citronella came from the bark of a tree in the same way as cinnamon.

This bark smelled exactly like a citronella candle and I needed no further convincing. On a particularly bad mosquito day I tried to burn some over a hot coal and it filled the house with acrid black smoke so it has been in the spice cupboard for years untouched. 

Who knows what I came back with that day, but every source I can find online says it is indeed lemongrass (or a variety thereof). Incidentally you get some very interesting things when you search for citronella and bark:




This is my 'citronella':


----------



## RosemaryDW

Kapidolo Farms said:


> *garland chrysanthemum* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glebionis_coronaria who knew?
> 
> I bought this and fed it out just because I'm like that. Got it from H-mart in San Diego. I tried a little bit and don't recall anything remarkable about the flavor. I placed it in the diet at such a low % I also don't recall that any tortoises cared about it one way or the other.


I offer it a couple of times a year but my Russian couldn’t be less interested. It has no particular taste to me either but apparently it is good in soup.


----------



## janevicki

Kapidolo Farms said:


> *Dandelion *greens
> 
> https://ndb.nal.usda.gov/ndb/foods/show/2960?manu=&fgcd=&ds=
> 
> It is true that store dandelions and 'found in the backyard' are different, but 'technically' the same species. What's in your backyard has adapted to your specific environment (meaning climate, lawn watering patterns, and even to some extent your mowing frequency). Those that are cultivated have adapted to that care regime. I have not found any tortoises to seek them out in preference to other greens, but Testudo types are extremely attracted to the flowers.


*Kapidolo Farms thank you for all your posts here. So very informative! ? *


----------



## RosemaryDW

@Kapidolo Farms Will; can you please compare the calcium levels between radish and turnip leaves? I suspect they are as good, or close, but since people tend to eat turnip leaves more than radish leaves we don’t see too much about them. I’ll use them like turnip greens in human food and they cooked up much different than the other calcium rich brassicas.

I asked this question a long time ago but don’t remember an answer.

I’d be grateful if you recognize that I’m an English major and can‘t understand answers much longer than “Just as good;” “Even better!”, “Less calcium but good for other reasons;“ “Meh.” I always give the more scientific answers a shot but the results can be poor.


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## Kapidolo Farms

Turnip greens 140:92. https://fdc.nal.usda.gov/fdc-app.html#/food-details/170061/nutrients. mg:mg in 100 grams of raw leaves

Radish greens 280:XXX. https://www.eatthismuch.com/food/nutrition/radish-greens,163857/. mg:mg in 100 grams of raw leaves
Radish greens 260:xxx. https://www.lybrate.com/topic/radish-leaves-benefits. mg:mg in 100 grams of raw leaves
Radish greens 260:104 https://www.onlyfoods.net/radish-greens.html mg:mg in 100 grams of raw leaves

There are many different cultivars of turnips and radishes, I imagine these numbers could be 'bouncy' depending on the actual cultivar.

@RosemaryDW Thanks for bumping me in this thread.


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## RosemaryDW

It’s your thread; who else would I bump? 

That last radish ratio is a little better than 2:1 if I understand correctly (which is uncertain). So maybe not quite the same but not bad. Not all owners have turnip leaves at their grocery store but pretty much everyone has radishes.

I feed the daikon leaves; larger and far less fuzzy which seems to make them more attractive. Less fuzzy than turnip leaves, actually. Not common outside of Asian grocers though. The downside is that I sometimes have to buy a giant radish to get the leaves if they aren’t sold separately. There is only so much pickled radish I can eat.


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## Yvonne G

@Kapidolo Farms - The experts on the Bearded Dragon Forum tout sprinkling Bee Pollen over the food to encourage a recalcitrant eater to eat. Would this be of any value for tortoises?


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## Kapidolo Farms

I don't know, I do not see how it would be harmful, bee pollen is an accumulation of pollen from flowers, not a product of anything more than the labor of the bee doing a great deal of work. It may/may not be part of why tortoises like flowers so much. I have noticed spider tortoises will eat the center stalk of the flower, often first, as well as the petals.


Yvonne G said:


> @Kapidolo Farms - The experts on the Bearded Dragon Forum tout sprinkling Bee Pollen over the food to encourage a recalcitrant eater to eat. Would this be of any value for tortoises?


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## MEEJogja

Pollen is sticky by nature and collects particulate pollution from the air. Probably in completely insignificant amounts but perhaps worth mentioning. I certainly don't think honey fortified with pollen is worth the premium that my partner does anyhow.


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## Kapidolo Farms

I have to believe this may be used for environmental pollution monitoring? What do you think?


MEEJogja said:


> Pollen is sticky by nature and collects particulate pollution from the air. Probably in completely insignificant amounts but perhaps worth mentioning. I certainly don't think honey fortified with pollen is worth the premium that my partner does anyhow.


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## MEEJogja

Potentially as an indicator. It's organic and could be isolated from inorganic pollutants quite easily. I suspect completely impractical for most use cases though. Different species have mature stamen for different lengths of time, with some having much more time to collect pollution than others. Also pollen from different species have greatly different surface areas and assumedly different adherency. You could attempt to overcome the challenge of collecting samples from a single species at the exact same stage of its reproductive cycle at different locations and times, or you could just stick a cheap diffusion tube on a tripod and collect samples whenever and wherever you like.
I honestly don't think it is dangerous as far as our torts go, most of us inhale plenty of pollen, probably in larger quantities than you would sprinkle over something to entice a tort. It's just an unknown is all.


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## Yvonne G

From my friend, Google:

Bee pollen is a mixture of flower pollen, nectar, enzymes, honey, wax and bee secretions.

Foraging honey bees collect pollen from plants and transport it to the beehive, where it’s stored and used as food for the colony .

Bee pollen shouldn’t be confused with other bee products such as honey, royal jelly or honeycomb. These products may not contain pollen or may contain other substances.

Recently, bee pollen has gained traction in the health community because it’s loaded with nutrients, amino acids, vitamins, lipids and over 250 active substances


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## Yvonne G

I have a thin leopard tortoise that doesn't seem to eat his share, so I've started setting him up by himself, out of sight of the others in his yard. I'm going to buy some bee pollen and see if it encourages him to eat any better. I'll keep you informed.


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## Kapidolo Farms

I see, so bee pollen is a somewhat 'processed' pollen collected by bees. Not simply pollen collected by bees, but also processed. I probably should have tried for the bee keeping merit badge.


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## Camo

Do you have info for Bougainvillea leaves/flowers?


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## Srmcclure

Yvonne G said:


> I have a thin leopard tortoise that doesn't seem to eat his share, so I've started setting him up by himself, out of sight of the others in his yard. I'm going to buy some bee pollen and see if it encourages him to eat any better. I'll keep you informed.


Hey Yvonne! Any luck with that pollen. I have it for my beardie and didn't know if my redfoot would like it too. She eats well, but extra nutrients are always nice ?


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## Yvonne G

Srmcclure said:


> Hey Yvonne! Any luck with that pollen. I have it for my beardie and didn't know if my redfoot would like it too. She eats well, but extra nutrients are always nice ?


No, the tortoise died before it had time to do anything for him.


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## Srmcclure

Yvonne G said:


> No, the tortoise died before it had time to do anything for him.


I'm so sorry


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## Kapidolo Farms

Camo said:


> Do you have info for Bougainvillea leaves/flowers?



Hi Camo,

I just saw this today. None of my regular go to webpages list this plant as edible. It is considered mildly toxic to people and mammal pets. With the different species living so broadly in south America you'd think that at least some of the wild type diet lists would list is as food for one of the south American species of tortoise. 

I found this which does not address these plants as food for tortoises, but offer some idea that a few leaves if ingested will probably not be a horrible situation. 









Bougainvillea Genus: A Review on Phytochemistry, Pharmacology, and Toxicology - PubMed


This review discusses the current knowledge of the phytochemistry and <i>in vitro</i> and <i>in vivo</i> evaluations carried out using the extracts and, where appropriate, the main active components isolated from the genus <i>Bougainvillea</i>. Out of 18 species, most phytochemical...




pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov





_Bougainvillea_ Genus: A Review on Phytochemistry, Pharmacology, and Toxicology​Rodolfo Abarca-Vargas 1, Vera L Petricevich 1
Affiliations expand

PMID: *30034502*
PMCID: PMC6035817
DOI: 10.1155/2018/9070927
Free PMC article
Abstract​This review discusses the current knowledge of the phytochemistry and _in vitro_ and _in vivo_ evaluations carried out using the extracts and, where appropriate, the main active components isolated from the genus _Bougainvillea_. Out of 18 species, most phytochemical, pharmacological, and toxicological studies focused on four species with different cultivars and one hybrid. Some plants are used for the treatment of various health disorders. Numerous phytochemical investigations of plants in this genus confirm the presence of aliphatic hydrocarbons, fatty acids, fatty alcohols, volatile compounds, phenolic compounds, peltogynoids, flavonoids, phytosterols, terpenes, carbohydrates, and betalains. Various studies have confirmed that these extracts or active substances that were isolated from the genus _Bougainvillea_ have multiple pharmacological activities. Some species of _Bougainvillea_ have emerged as sources of traditional medicine in human health. More studies of the phytochemical, pharmacological, and toxicological properties and their mechanisms of action, safety, and efficacy in all _Bougainville_a species, cultivars, and hybrids are advisable for future research.

here is another that gives a basic shoulder shrug as to toxicity...








Bougainvillea glabra (choisy): A comprehensive review on botany, traditional uses, phytochemistry, pharmacology and toxicity - PubMed


Most of the pharmacological activities of crude extracts from this plant have been reported. A very few studies have reported the isolation of compounds responsible for observed biological potential of this plant. Moreover, the toxicity studies of this plant still need to be explored...




pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov





It works better to get a response out of me by doing this @Kapidolo Farms


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## jcase

Will or anyone,

any thoughts on these plants, tortoise table didnt have them (did have some related ones). They currently occupy where I'm building out tortoise enclosures. Looking for a "leave it" "destroy it" "cultivate it (they will enjoy it) opinion on them. I dont want to destroy anything that could be of benefit to them.

Erechtites hieraciifolius
Rosa Chinesis
Senna obtusifolia
Acalypha virginica
Justicia californica
solanum carolinese (guessing no, member of nightshade family)
Amaranthus spinosus


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