# Don't buy torts from pet stores!



## Redfoot NERD (Jan 28, 2008)

I've asked a couple of y'all "Why should you NOT buy any torts from pet stores"?

Coming from me it has nothing to do with being a breeder! It has everything to do with the health of the tortoise.

Will EVERYBODY please reply to this.. please? Elaborate at length about how you feel about this please! I'll elaborate later.

Thanks...


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## Josh (Jan 28, 2008)

for me it's important that wild species are not taken from their natural habitat. since many pet stores cannot or choose not to verify where they get their animals, i cannot assume that they all carry captive bred animals. 
additionally, pet stores need to keep many species on hand to be successful. it would be incredibly difficult to cater 100% to each species unique needs. undoubtedly, corners are cut and its the animals that suffer.


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## cvalda (Jan 29, 2008)

Agreed with Josh on the healthy issues. Of course that is one reason long quarantines are in order.

My question is... what about FARM BRED tortoises? You don't have the whole WC issue... so what are the issues there?


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## Itort (Jan 29, 2008)

Large chain petshops buy their animals from large scale importer/brokers with as much concern for the animal as they would have for bag of food. They then distribute them thruout the chain with no concern for legality of product (in their eyes) or health of product. The animal is a commidity and if more are sold are collected and imported. A classic example of this is in my state it is illegal to sell ornate box turtles, yet they are sold commonly. The excuse is no one told us any different.


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## Redfoot NERD (Jan 29, 2008)

COME ON EVERYBODY.. 50 LOOKS AND 2 REPLIES!?!?

THIS IS CRITICAL.. SAY _SOMETHING_! WE NEED TO UNITE ON THIS!!!

Terry


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## Redfoot NERD (Jan 29, 2008)

cvalda said:


> Agreed with Josh on the healthy issues. Of course that is one reason long quarantines are in order.
> 
> My question is... what about FARM BRED tortoises? You don't have the whole WC issue... so what are the issues there?



Where do you think pet stores get a large % of their torts?


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## Jacqui (Jan 29, 2008)

Sorry but I think there are times when it is ok to buy from a pet store.


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## cvalda (Jan 29, 2008)

well in my experience with petstores in madison, most get them wild caught and say they're captive bred. but there is one that has RF's that are farm bred. of course, the adults breeders producing the babies are likely wc.


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## cvalda (Jan 29, 2008)

and i agree with jacqui, to an extent because i have gotten petstore torts that i know are not healthy or were not going to be bought, or were going to end up in a beginner's hands and suffer the consequences, so that i could raise them right and bring them to health.

but that's not a "rule", just a case-by-case basis!


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## RichardA (Jan 29, 2008)

I cannot agree with not buying from shops.....I used to work for a large family owned pet store that buys from breeders. So the torts they carry are CB juvies. And most all others around here also buy from wholesalers that buy from breeders. So the whole taking them out of the wild thing is not across the board true. 

Now, what I do say is this.

ASK! Simply ask them. And also dont purhase animals that the store is neglecting. If you buy it they will order more. I am also guilty of doing this....lol....."saving" them. Large chain stores have no business carrying these animals if they are not gonna take the time to do it right.

My 2 pennies.


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## Redfoot NERD (Jan 29, 2008)

RichardA said:


> I cannot agree with not buying from shops.....I used to work for a large family owned pet store that buys from breeders. So the torts they carry are CB juvies. And most all others around here also buy from wholesalers that buy from breeders. So the whole taking them out of the wild thing is not across the board true.
> 
> Now, what I do say is this.
> 
> ...



Remember everybody.. those 4" RF you see most likely came from the "Farm" in Venezuela. 

And RichardA there are always exceptions and extremes.. so I commend 'your' pet store!

Don't get mad at me.. be honest with yourself.. if you're asking for advice instead of giving it - you're a 'newbie'! We all have to start somewhere.

I'm about to make my statement... ( most of it has been said already ).

Terry


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## Crazy1 (Jan 29, 2008)

OK, Redfoot NERD you got to give us time to answer. Some of us are still at work.


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## Nay (Jan 29, 2008)

The whole pet store thing bothers me,there are exceptions of course, but for the most part it is all about just moving them out. It is a business and inexperienced people working there will say whatever to just get it sold. I watched 2 baby sulcatas at our neighborhood store,the CUTEST. But the kid who was showing them off said' oh yeah, they can stay in an aguarium. You might need to get a little bigger one sometime in the future. People who come and get info at the pet store on pet that could potentially outlive you,have not done any homework. I walked after those people and quietly told them, that that tortoise is very cute, like a piece of carved ivory, would , if cared for properly,go through the sheetrock in their house. They had no idea. The next week they were both gone.
Another place got in a shipment of large red eared sliders. Those poor torts were full of cutarebras( a type of maggot that will live under the skin, with a little hole for breathing. We removed many of those bugs and at no charge(I was at a vet near the pet store)When asked what would be done if we didn't at least do that, the kids said they would just let them go, the owner wanted to spend no money on these disposable creatures. It is just the amount of, or lack of, education that people get pets.And if they find out how much work goes along with them, these poor critters just get passed along, hopefully to someone on a board like this.
(also my 2 pennies)
Na


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## JustAnja (Jan 29, 2008)

I think there are many mom and pop pet store operations still around today that sell quality animals. I have a friend that manages the herp department at a long standing family owned store in California and they produce most of the tortoises they sell themselves as well as buy from local breeders that they know. 

I dont agree with purchasing live animals from large chain pet stores because most are WC and being pawned off as CB animals. They are the ones with total disregard for the animals well being. I will say Petco does have a policy that they will do whatever it takes to try and save a sick animal in their care at no cost before opting to euthanize. Ive seen this first hand when I worked at an Emergency Animal Hospital and we took care of pretty much all of their animals when needed because we would see exotics. Store managers could not opt to euthanize even in severe cases because it was against corporate policy. 

I do not agree with breeders demanding high prices when there are others who breed the exact same animals, and their babies look just as nice as breeder A's animals and sell for less than half. Their is an average price for every animal out there and Im sorry but charging 2-3 times that because you *think* your animals are that much better is not always the right thing to do. I see it in dogs, I see it in snakes, I see it in torts and every other animal available in the pet trade today. Just today I was looking at Boston Terrier puppies and Dachshund puppies and people were asking the same amount of money or MORE for a pet registered in a small pet registry (APRI) as breeders breeding AKC registered, show quality stock. 


And there is my 2 pennies worth......


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## Jentortmom (Jan 29, 2008)

IMO, Most but NOT all pet stores sell wild caught turtles and tortoises. The animals are ripped out of there natural habitat and then crammed in boxes or bags by the hundreds or thousands and then shipped with no food or water. When they arrive at the distributors The ones that survived and are not crushed or suffocated to death are put in new boxes and shipped out to the different stores all over they united states. When they arrived at the pet stores they are put in inadequate housing with poor food and horrible lighting to sit and suffer until some person comes and purchases them only to be told to place them in a 10 gallon maybe 20 gallon tank, and then they are not fed proper diets and will suffer until they die. I admit four of my turts and torts are from pet shops, 2 were dropped off by previous owner and then I picked them up, the third was given to me because he was sick and they did not want to pay for vet visit, or have it die. The baby sulcata was captive breed by store owner and was given to me because he had a soft shell. The only way I would ever purchase a tort from a pet shop is if I could guarantee it was captive breed. I have seen pictures of russians, greeks, lizards, and other reptiles after they were seized during shipment. The pictures are not pretty and I cried through everyone and those images haunt me everytime I see a tort in a pet store. If anyone ever wants to see those pictures pm me and I will tell you how to get to the site. That is my opionon.


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## Redfoot NERD (Jan 29, 2008)

JustAnja said:


> I think there are many mom and pop pet store operations still around today that sell quality animals. I have a friend that manages the herp department at a long standing family owned store in California and they produce most of the tortoises they sell themselves as well as buy from local breeders that they know.
> 
> I dont agree with purchasing live animals from large chain pet stores because most are WC and being pawned off as CB animals. They are the ones with total disregard for the animals well being. I will say Petco does have a policy that they will do whatever it takes to try and save a sick animal in their care at no cost before opting to euthanize. Ive seen this first hand when I worked at an Emergency Animal Hospital and we took care of pretty much all of their animals when needed because we would see exotics. Store managers could not opt to euthanize even in severe cases because it was against corporate policy.
> 
> ...



Anja this thread is about "Don't buy from pet stores!.. not which breeder you buy from.

Terry


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## Redfoot NERD (Jan 29, 2008)

Crazy1 said:


> OK, Redfoot NERD you got to give us time to answer. Some of us are still at work.



That's the whole idea Robyn.. to get everyone to make their statement - y'all are doing great!

Terry


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## JustAnja (Jan 29, 2008)

Redfoot NERD said:


> JustAnja said:
> 
> 
> > I think there are many mom and pop pet store operations still around today that sell quality animals. I have a friend that manages the herp department at a long standing family owned store in California and they produce most of the tortoises they sell themselves as well as buy from local breeders that they know.
> ...



Last I checked Terry this was a free board and promoted free thought. I hit on a few different problems that are all related. I am free to say what I feel on this board.


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## Crazy1 (Jan 29, 2008)

Ok, I thought about this most of today and *this is a long one *so here goes and no yelling at me because its so long at least I'm thinking and today that wasn't an easy thing to do. Bad day at work. 

I am a tortoise, my name is Clyde. I have lived for the past 25 years wondering around this large scrub covered area grazing at my leisure occasionally saying hi to my neighbors and of course courting a couple of lovely ladies here and there. One day I was kidnapped taken from my home against my will. Shoved into a tiny box that was hot and filled with lots of other tortoises. Some were my neighbors some I didnÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t know; we had no food or water. It was so cramped I was stepped on and sat upon by many tortoises. We were in this box a long time. Some of the tortoises were sick. The box began to shift from side to side and up and down. More tortoises got sick. Some died. The smell was terrible. Then the movement of the box stopped. Some giant opened it and the light stung my eyes. But I was taken from the box and placed under hard running water Burr cold. Then I was placed in a small box I could see thru. I tried and tried to walk out of the box but could not. There were others like me there. This box was dry and hot but we got some thing to eat. Dry pellets that didnÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t taste very good and some green stuff I had never tasted or smelled before. The group would fight over scraps of food. There was a small water bowl too small to lay in but large enough to get a sip of water from, but it tasted so fowl, a little like the dark box had smelled. At night the lights would go out and it got so cold we would huddle together for warmth but there was none. One by one the others began to get taken away by the giants. One day a Giant came and got me. I was placed in a small dark box and went for a bumpy ride. Then I was taken out and put in another clear box again the air didnÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t move. The clear box was small I didnÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t have much room to move. It was very cold when the light went out and there was no way to stay warm. The ground is hard to walk on its like quick sand and it moves when I step in it. I hit a hard surface when I tried to dig down to bury myself to keep warm or find a way out. There is no water to sit in or drink. But I get green stuff to eat. Some doesnÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t taste good but it is food. My chest feels tight I donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t feel very well. The days roll by the same thing day after day The days are now really hot and I feel way too dry. I really would like a drink. I want to take a walk Ã¢â‚¬â€œ I dream of home. These large eyes keep looking in on me. Each day is like the other nothing changes nothing to do, no place to go. I feel worse now. My chest hurts I am having trouble breathing, I donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t feel like eating .All I do is sit in the corner and think of being home.

This is told by a little tort that was taken from his home and sold to a large (bad) pet store chain, then to an unknowing person who was given the wrong care information. 

Now I am talking about the Large Pet Store Chains, not the mom and pop ones that buy from breeders or the ones that care for their animals and their are some that do. I'm talking about those large chains that donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t know the husbandry, (diet, what to watch for in a tort. etc.) They donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t even know the breed. They donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t care how many males are placed in a tank to fight or what a fight looks like. Mostly they hire kids (teenagers or young people) to work for them that know nothing about tortoises. Some have never even seen a tort before. They donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t take Torts (reptiles in general) to the vet if they show signs of illness or injury. Large numbers are often housed in small spaces. This, the Tortoise is a commodity. It is an item that has no other value than to make money and if they donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t they are expendable. A vet costs too much or policy saidÃ¢â‚¬Â¦., so they just let them die a horrible death or they sell them to unknowing people who get the wrong information if they get any at all or a sick tort. Not all people do research to find out how to care for these wonderful creatures. They beleive the Pet Store and again the tort dies a horrible lingering painful death. There arenÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t many vets that are knowledgeable in Chelonian care so if they do get vet care it may be the wrong care. 

Plus we are just really coming to understand some things about tortoises and turtles. As a lot of us know that got bad advice on husbandry, diet, etc. not so very long ago. 

As long as people buy from these stores, no matter if it is to rescue or because you found a loving pet, they will keep selling these animals. They buy them low and sell high, with little expenditure on their care or upkeep.

DonÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t get me wrong I bought my first two from a reptile pet shop. But I have since come to understand they knew very little about my torts. They had parasites and RIÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s and were kept in pretty bad conditions. And yes I fell in love with them the moment I saw them. I went back and back and back to see them over a two week period before I bought them. I am not sorry I did. I do however realize that not all Pet stores even those that specialize in reptiles know what to do with specific breeds or subspecies of torts. And yes this store just replaced the ones I bought with others. When I went back and spoke to them they pretty much told me I didn't know what I was talking about that they were the experts and they knew how to raise tortoises.

I know that buying from a *Reputable* breeder gives me correct husbandry, well cared for hatchlings or adults. They are knowledgeable of the breed. The care sheets or information you get is accurate and complete and you have someone to call if you have questions. They usually have an answer or know where to get one. They must keep good healthy stock to bring them $$$ so the tortoises are cared for. Not kidnap from the wild. Perhaps taken illegally and transported to a country that has legal importation and exportation and then renamed to suit the seller thus giving false or bad information on that species or subspecies.

With so much Human encroachment and habitat destruction and exploitation of these creatures we may decimate any species of tortoise in the wild and then our ecosystem suffers. And we but add to the extinction of mankind.


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## Crazy1 (Jan 29, 2008)

JustAnja said:


> I dont agree with purchasing live animals from large chain pet stores because most are WC and being pawned off as CB animals. They are the ones with total disregard for the animals well being. I will say Petco does have a policy that they will do whatever it takes to try and save a sick animal in their care at no cost before opting to euthanize.



Anja at my local Petco they have changed their policy recently and I was told they take no Reptile to the vet anymore. When I asked what they do with them if they are sick or injured they told me they take them to the back package them up and then send them back to the supplier. Not good if youÃ¢â‚¬â„¢re a sick or injured Reptile. The staff seemed genuinely upset at this new change in policy but they have no recourse if they want to keep their job. I do hope this is in only one store but I doubt it. Petco is a large chain and not a franchise and Policy is usually Global to these chains..


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## Crazy1 (Jan 29, 2008)

Terry, sometimes I don't like your questions, But I must admit they make me think and I always learn from them. So I personally would like to say thanks from the bottom of my heart for raising questions that make me think even when I don't want to.


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## -EJ (Jan 29, 2008)

Redfoot NERD said:


> I've asked a couple of y'all "Why should you NOT buy any torts from pet stores"?
> 
> Coming from me it has nothing to do with being a breeder! It has everything to do with the health of the tortoise.
> 
> ...



Terry, 

Have you gone further off the deep end????????

Where on earth did you get your start? I really don't have to say more.


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## JustAnja (Jan 29, 2008)

That was a great post Robyn, thanks.


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## -EJ (Jan 29, 2008)

This is one crazy thread...

Where do you think your CB animals came from?

Where did every one of us start this hobby?

I can see regulation and such but the arrogance that is projected in this thread is way over the top.

There are good shops and bad but to say they are all bad whether they are a mom and pop or a chain is very wrong.

I have serious connections in the herp industry and I still buy from petstores. It makes no difference to me. The animal is in the trade and it's a done deal. 

If you want to make a difference... change legislation but think about what you do before you do it because once it's done... it's very hard to change it back.


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## Redfoot NERD (Jan 29, 2008)

Crazy1 said:


> Terry, sometimes I don't like your questions, But I must admit they make me think and I always learn from them. So I personally would like to say thanks from the bottom of my heart for raising questions that make me think even when I don't want to.



Thank you for that true to life story.

Robyn you've said what I have planned to say.. and I'll make my statement soon.. as I'm trying to undo the info "out there" and teach what I know about tortoises - G. carbonaria - redfoot tortoises in particular.

I know those that are teachers.. my sister is one.. and they all say that only good teachers know how to ask Q?'s that will inspire and encourage those to think! And then act on the conclusion that best fits the need at hand. 

We try...

Terry


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## -EJ (Jan 29, 2008)

Redfoot NERD said:


> COME ON EVERYBODY.. 50 LOOKS AND 2 REPLIES!?!?
> 
> THIS IS CRITICAL.. SAY _SOMETHING_! WE NEED TO UNITE ON THIS!!!
> 
> Terry



Are you off your meds????

What is really your point?

Do you have a clue how the pet industry works?

(deep breath)... I'm ok now... not really... this is a thread that was started for... what reason????????


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## Josh (Jan 29, 2008)

Let me step in here to say that I think this thread was meant to be thought-provoking as opposed to condescending. I can see how this might have been misconstrued but let's not focus on that.
I think we can all agree that taking a wild animal from it's natural habitat is not the best thing to do, especially when there are so many other options with captive breeding. 

The gray area is the judgment call each one of us has to make when purchasing a pet. Was the animal raised in a high density farm under unhealthy conditions? Was it taken from the wild? Was it bred and hatched by a small-time breeder?

We should all do our best to be educated on where these animals potentially came from. Ask questions and don't buy until you find someone who has the answers YOU personally are comfortable with.


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## JustAnja (Jan 29, 2008)

Im sure I can guess why this thread was started but I will keep that to myself. I do agree Ed that unless legislation gets changed nothing will change. Supply and demand, its simple as that. How many on here can honestly say they purchased their first tort/turtle/reptile from a pet store? I would bet it would be a large number. Learning should be a constant thing for everyone no matter who you are. I dont know everything about torts, but I know a great deal because I make it a point to do so, just like very other animal I have ever had in my life. I also enjoy trying to help others make good choices in the care of their animals. And you are absolutely right, if the tortoise is already there in the shop it doesnt matter of you purchase it to give it a good life, as long as there is supply and demand there will be another one to replace it next week. I think there should be limits on importation but not an outright ban on it. Look at what Leopard prices have done since they stopped importing them, its insane.


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## Josh (Jan 29, 2008)

P.S. Don't make me start a debate forum, you guys! 
Let's try to stay positive.


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## JustAnja (Jan 29, 2008)

josh said:


> P.S. Don't make me start a debate forum, you guys!
> Let's try to stay positive.





Could be a good idea Josh


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## -EJ (Jan 29, 2008)

josh said:


> Let me step in here to say that I think this thread was meant to be thought-provoking as opposed to condescending. I can see how this might have been misconstrued but let's not focus on that.
> I think we can all agree that taking a wild animal from it's natural habitat is not the best thing to do, especially when there are so many other options with captive breeding.
> 
> The gray area is the judgment call each one of us has to make when purchasing a pet. Was the animal raised in a high density farm under unhealthy conditions? Was it taken from the wild? Was it bred and hatched by a small-time breeder?
> ...



Back on track... nice diplomacy.

Farmed animals... the redfoots... a beautiful example of controling animals in their native range for production for the pet trade. 

Are theyI better or worse than what you can get from a private breeder... it depends on the breeder.

Those that come from farms I suggest that they be treated as wild caught only because of the conditions frm which the come. I dont't see anythin wrong with those conditions. It's like raising bunnies...

I can write a book on this topic... the bottom line... Petshops serve a function. Most (even the chains) are well intentioned. Rants like the original post are from what I call the lunatic fringe.


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## Redfoot NERD (Jan 29, 2008)

josh said:


> Let me step in here to say that I think this thread was meant to be thought-provoking as opposed to condescending. I can see how this might have been misconstrued but let's not focus on that.
> I think we can all agree that taking a wild animal from it's natural habitat is not the best thing to do, especially when there are so many other options with captive breeding.
> 
> The gray area is the judgment call each one of us has to make when purchasing a pet. Was the animal raised in a high density farm under unhealthy conditions? Was it taken from the wild? Was it bred and hatched by a small-time breeder?
> ...



You just made my statement Josh.

We better think a little with our head.. and not let our emotions make our decisions for us. Know what you're getting into and what it takes once you do.. BEFORE making the purchase!

And keep in mind every tort has their own individual needs.

Terry


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## JustAnja (Jan 29, 2008)

Too many people are impulse buyers and that is never going to change. Oh look at that cute *insert bunny, puppy, kitten, etc etc* in the window at the pet shop. Some people take puppies home not having a clue how to house train one and get angry when the puppy pees and poops all over the house and blames it on the puppy. Until we can all come together and work to inform pet shops, one and all, with good information about their charges nothing will ever change. This is not likely to happen though because none of the keepers in the herp hobby can ever come together for any reason.


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## JustAnja (Jan 29, 2008)

Redfoot NERD said:


> josh said:
> 
> 
> > Let me step in here to say that I think this thread was meant to be thought-provoking as opposed to condescending. I can see how this might have been misconstrued but let's not focus on that.
> ...




Seems several have just made your statement but you Terry.


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## Redfoot NERD (Jan 29, 2008)

Thank you all for your input. 

I trust we all learned from this thread.. with the torts' well being foremost...

Terry


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## -EJ (Jan 29, 2008)

Redfoot NERD said:


> Thank you all for your input.
> 
> I trust we all learned from this thread.. with the torts' well being foremost...
> 
> Terry



Terry,

If that's what you feel and believe... more power to you.


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## Noodles (Jan 29, 2008)

I don't know if this is an overall change in company policy or what, but the PetCo near my home has stopped selling torts/most reptiles entirely. Om Nom Nom was the last little tort there. Her former cage now bears a sign stating that they are "re-evaluating what companion animals they carry" or some such.

Fine with me, seeing as how the guy there told me to feed the poor thing dog food (I think this myth might be propogated by old, outdated literature on tortoises. I have an old book that states the same thing.) At least he told us to build a tortoise table instead of buying a tank.

But, anyway, knowing what I know now about torts, I'd definitely be uncomfortable with buying from a large-chain store again.


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## Itort (Jan 30, 2008)

About twenty years ago I worked in a small family owned petshop. We found that the money was not in the animal but in the supplies. Well about that time the large pet supply stores began to emerge. Their corporate statement was we will not sell animals but just supplies. They decried the abuse of the animals in classic shops and vowed they would not follow that course. Well, in short time, they begain carrying fish, then birds, then small animals, then herps, and now adoptable dogs and cats. All this leads to selling more pet supplies. Also along the way care info was overlooked. In my opinion if you wish to deal with a pet shop, deal a good mom and pop store. I have found that they are more receptive to specific advice and help. I have found that the term hypocrite applies to the chains very well. Bye the bye my local independent doesn't own a MLB stadium.


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## Jacqui (Jan 31, 2008)

Before since I really didn't have the time to give thought to a long post stating why I felt buying from a pet store can be the right thing to do, I just stated my opinion. Now for the reasons behind them.

First I hate being a hypocrite. Where do you think my first animals came from? I have also noticed many other people who are very active turtle/tort breeders and care takers got their first animal(s) from pet stores. I also include the famous dime store RES as coming from pet stores.

How many of the current CBs that are currently for sale came from CB parents? The majority are from either WC adults or farmed situations (which is kinda between the two). Some species of course have an advantage in this area, because they breed more readily or have had more time in captivity. If I recall correctly, Danny has the great pleasure of second generation torts.

If there is an animal sitting in a pet store that would be a good addition to a breeding colony why would I ignore it? The animal is already out of the wild, it can't go back. So should those genes be forever lost? To me it's better if let's say you come across a large adult female Russian, to get her into a breeding group. To add her to the number of possible females producing hatchlings that might lead to enough CBs that WC are no longer needed.

Yes I think we need to not be taking all we can from the wild, but let's look at another side of that issue. Often these are poor countries. The money they get from selling their native animals puts food on the table, clothes on the bodies. Is it better for them to be bought by people to keep as pets and breeding stock or sold to countries to put into the stew pot? If there is no money coming in from these sales and no other ways to make an income, do you think these folks will starve themselves or will they also start eating these animals?

I think everybody knows my first love are the Hingebacks. As a whole, we have made giant steps in keeping them and in getting some hatchlings. However there are very few CBs. People wanting to raise these guys have to start with WCs. The pool of genetic material is also very limited. Looking way to the future, we could have problems resulting from that.

Chances are poor that many species will remain viable in the wild. Habitat destruction; segments becoming isolated; human, their animals, other wild animals moving into their territories, encroachments of all kinds; lack of knowledge, and often general lack of caring are just a few ways they are losing habitat faster than we can stop it. Should we sit back and let them disappear? Or should we take from the wild into captive programs and hope to save them? Perhaps someday they can be returned with captive animals, perhaps they will forever be lost in the wild, and perhaps only in captivity will they have a chance.

I like to buy my animals after seeing them, holding them, and examining them. Often breeders sell thru the internet, ect.., You are buying sight unseen from an unknown person. Shipping animals can be a nightmare and not all folks are lucky to live near breeders. Much easier to buy from a local pet store.

Not all impulse buying is bad and it can still be an impulse buy at times from a breeder, too. For example I see Redfoot Nerd's (sp?) cute hatchlings and immediately send off the money. Did I think that thru or did I just fall for a colorful sweet face? (and no I didn't get one...lol). You may see a Russian at a store and impulsively buy it, but does that mean you won't research it's needs? Won't do what is right for it? It's not the impulsiveness that is bad, it's how you then follow thru with it.

I think buying sick animals can be a good thing. It's a last chance for these animals. Is it better to let them suffer and die? The same is true for defective or otherwise not physically attractive or "perfect" looking enough for today's society.

Yes pet stores can be bad, but then are breeders always wonderful folks? How many of you actually did a surprise walk thru of your breeders? Does he/she actually take animals to the vet? Is he/she really feeding the good stuff he/she says he/she is? Are those really his/her adults he/she shows shots of? How many breeders give bad advice? How many breeders are only concerned about the bottom line?

True often pet stores are giving inadequate care, but look at how many different views there are out there on proper care. My personal experience has been my local pet stores are very open to ideas and suggestions. They want to learn. Just like everything else, there are places that don't care. With them all you can do is to keep trying.

Both pet stores and breeders can be bad. Both cases for and against taking WC are valid. Life is full of these types of situations. It's up to each of us to judge for ourselves and to judge each situation on it's own merits.


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## -EJ (Jan 31, 2008)

Jacqui said:


> Before since I really didn't have the time to give thought to a long post stating why I felt buying from a pet store can be the right thing to do, I just stated my opinion. Now for the reasons behind them...




Nice post.


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## Crazy1 (Jan 31, 2008)

Jacqui you made some very valid points in your post.


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## AST-Loch (Jan 31, 2008)

I say don't buy tortoises from petstores (or turtles) because they simply don't care, they just see animals as money. 

At my local PetCo, they sell Red-Eared Sliders. I've seen the conditions they keep them in. They keep around fifteen turtles, each badly pyramided in their own special way, 4-6 inch shells, all in the same tank. The tank looks like a 50 gallon tank. The turtles have nowhere to hide, either. 

The store keeps Russians, up to two, in the same terrarium, which (if it were a fishtank) would probably be 15-20 gallons. It has a glass front, and a hide just big enough for one of them to be in. They feed them crickets. 

I've actually been told that I can sell wild-caught turtles to them. 

Poor turtles and tortoises...


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## Itort (Jan 31, 2008)

This is my point. No knowledge of the animal or desire to learn. The chain petstores are blishly ignorant of the animals they sell in general. If you have a Petsmart near you ,this is not torts, see if you can buy a bird there now. The reason why is they were caught selling them infected with psytoccosis (sp) or parrot fever. If this is the concern they have for public how much due they care for the animals. I for one won't even buy dogfood there now, for my own health.


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## RichardA (Jan 31, 2008)

Redfoot NERD said:


> RichardA said:
> 
> 
> > I cannot agree with not buying from shops.....I used to work for a large family owned pet store that buys from breeders. So the torts they carry are CB juvies. And most all others around here also buy from wholesalers that buy from breeders. So the whole taking them out of the wild thing is not across the board true.
> ...




Just to be clear.....I meant ask where they buy from. If they buy from a breeder they will know and tell you, if they say from our supply house they are just ordering without any regard to well being of the animal. Like I said before, all but a handful of shops statewide here buy from the same wholesaler, who in turn buys from our local breeders as well as a few out of state breeders....

The area I live in we have 3 of the top Ball Python producers as well as 3-5 of the larger Tort and Turt breeders. 

That is all I meant by my post, buying from a store is not always out of the question.

PS: I am talking about family owned pet shops....NOT chain stores.....they have little to zero knowledge of anything they sell, animals or dry goods.


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## Redfoot NERD (Jan 31, 2008)

This thread was never open to: interpretation.. emotions.. egos.. or justification's of our individual opinions.

The Q? was asked to find out where everyone's head and/or heart was when it came to keeping our beloved tortoises! And more importantly what impact that has on the tortoises!!!

Lest we have forgotten.. it started with this:

I've asked a couple of y'all "Why should you NOT buy any torts from pet stores"?

Coming from me it has nothing to do with being a breeder! It has everything to do with the health of the tortoise.

Will EVERYBODY please reply to this.. please? Elaborate at length about how you feel about this please! I'll elaborate later.

Thanks... 

And it seemingly has turned into a debate - attacking: me for asking the Q?.. the breeders.. the pet stores.. the tortoise farms'.. legislation.. one another.. [ have I missed anything or body? ] Quite frankly I'm surprised someone didn't call the tortoises stupid for allowing themselves to be caught!

This is a thread that any Admin would be proud to represent as "How our members get along"..




.

Wonder how "new" potential members feel when they read the above 5 page thread?

My favorite replies came from Danny.. (if he replied I didn't see it - smart on his part).. Robyn who appreciated the thought stimulation.. and Josh who felt he had to explain what the original idea of the Q? was.

I was under the impression that this forum was different because we are interested in what's best for the tortoises.

Terry


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## -EJ (Jan 31, 2008)

RichardA said:


> Redfoot NERD said:
> 
> 
> > RichardA said:
> ...



Where you even thinking when you typed out those first 2 lines????????

You have to have seen the photos of those 'farms'... they do exist and they are producing redfoot in the numbers that they can retail for $100... 

I can go on but I just realized... what is you motive for posting the original post... not bad enough... but then perpetuating it with this post??????


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## RichardA (Jan 31, 2008)

My answer would be:

You shouldn't "not" buy from a store......You "should" however only buy from stores that have knowledge of the animals and care about them in the manner that is needed. I personally have gotten some really nice torts from stores, the owners and the employees care and have the knowledge to keep them healthy and happy.

Guess the real answer would be this:

You should not buy from a store if the animals in their care (other animals too, not only torts and turts) are not being taken care of in a manner that is healthy for the animal. If they have 25 baby sulcatas all crammed into a 10 gallon tank with no substrate then you know they have no care nor desire to care for these animals and you should walk away at that point.


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## RichardA (Jan 31, 2008)

EJ

what are you talking about.....I never said the farms didnt exist......I simply stated that here they do not buy from them, nor did I when I had my business going. I have personally been to the facilities where the ones here come from....my wifes tort came from one of them.


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## JustAnja (Jan 31, 2008)

All I can say is I am glad this forum is not run like a Nazi war camp and we do have the freedom of free thought and speech here. This forum IS different.


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## Redfootedboxturtles (Jan 31, 2008)

This usually happens on most forums. Seems some people took this very personal. Any ways. Private owned pet shops are going out of business left and right here in my area of south Florida. Chains like Petco and Petsmart are popping up all over. I cant honestly say I would never buy a tortoise from pet shop private or chain. I can say it isnt good for the animals as a whole. In the bigger picture people who are looking to make a pet investment(any animal) should do one of two things. Buy from a real breeder. Someone who has the parents on display. Kind of like buying a pure bred puppy, or thorow bred horse. The second would be to adopt. Thousands of animals of all shapes and sizes are in need of good quality loving homes. Tortoises happen to be one of them. 

Long story short. IMO buying a baby tortoise from a pet shop is like buying a puppy from a pet shop. Do some research on where most pet shops get their puppy's from.


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## RichardA (Jan 31, 2008)

Great post Redfooted.......pretty much what I was trying to say but let my opinions get into the way.


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## egyptiandan (Jan 31, 2008)

Thanks Terry  I usually leave threads like this alone  
We (tortoise keepers) tend to lose sight of things when asked questions like this.
The only thing that matters here is the tortoise or tortoises.  It matters not where the tortoise is. They didn't choose to be in any of those places anyway. So it doesn't matter where you buy a tortoise from. 
It only matters that you've done your research and can supply that particular tortoises needs and care (including vet care).
You have to know that this tortoise will never go back to the wild and his/her best chance of a long life is a well informed keeper.
So don't worry about where a tortoise came from, just worry about giving that tortoise the best care you possiblely can. 

Danny


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## cvalda (Jan 31, 2008)

Well said, Danny!

Here's how I look at it, but I think this is all based on individual opinions and case-by-case basis, and because I feel this way doesn't mean everyone else will or even should... 

Of the last three torts that I got from petstores, all three were at substantial discounts, this being because I talked to the manager, pointed out the issues in the care of these animals, pointed out their needs and how they are not being served, and was given quite a discount on them so they could "move the product".

Now, yes, they probably still made a little profit, but not much at all. Yes, they will turn around and replace the tortoise with a new one. BUT they will do so, I HOPE, with more thought for the animal, and each time I go in and talk to the managers about them, they learn a little more and more and more... and some will choose to disregard it, but some will think twice... The fact of the matter is, if those three tortoises died in the store because they did not sell and were not taken care of, they would STILL be replaced with a new tortoise, BUT they would be replaced with a much lesser understanding of the topic.


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## -EJ (Jan 31, 2008)

RichardA said:


> EJ
> 
> what are you talking about.....I never said the farms didnt exist......I simply stated that here they do not buy from them, nor did I when I had my business going. I have personally been to the facilities where the ones here come from....my wifes tort came from one of them.



My screw up... I hit the reply at the top instead of the bottom... that was meant for terry's post. On member picked it up.

Lesson learned... for me... watch which end of the post you are clicking... for you... watch for the context.

Sorry.


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## Redfoot NERD (Jan 31, 2008)

I wonder how much longer this is going on?

Don't buy torts from pet stores! Was strictly an attention-getter.. not a statement. 

In the body ( 4th sentence ) of this thread is where I asked how you felt about buying from pet stores. Why would anyone think I was suggesting to only buy from a breeder.. [ because I am one ]? Ask any of us [ breeder's ] what % of our hatchlings end up with those met on a forum. I would like to see more.. because forum members seem to be more concerned and willing to learn than others do. We couldn't feed our colony for a month.. from the proceeds of selling to forum members.. in a YEARS time! Why do y'all think I'm even here.. posting pics and sharing years of experince? And asking Q?'s to get you to think and participate.. which leads to more Q?'s and more answers!

Why do you think.........?

Terry


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## -EJ (Jan 31, 2008)

Redfoot NERD said:


> I wonder how much longer this is going on?
> 
> Don't buy torts from pet stores! Was strictly an attention-getter.. not a statement.
> 
> ...



You seem to have gotten quite a few peoples attention. This is one of those seriously debatable questions.

what got my attention was the you seemed to contradict yourself on some points bit maybe it was how I read it.

This is a hobby that is based on the pet trade whether we like to admit it or not.

The pet shop whether it is a mom/pop or chain serves a function that does help this hobby. 

I don't think any one of us... keeper... breeder... hobbyest... could stand alone without the aid of these shops... but that's just me.

(crap... I ran out of things to say)


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## Redfoot NERD (Jan 31, 2008)

-EJ said:


> Redfoot NERD said:
> 
> 
> > I wonder how much longer this is going on?
> ...



It's on record folks.. (crap... I ran out of things to say)





Thanks ALL.. you especially Ed...

Terry


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## cvalda (Feb 1, 2008)

Terry, I understand that you are frustrated because many of the replies to this question are not what you wanted to hear. I can't speak for everyone here, but please know that the great majority of us do respect you and value your opinions, insight and understanding on tortoises and tortoise care (I know I definately do)! 

When a question is posed that makes people think, and think HARD, (as yours did) you are going to run the whole gamut of answers and thoughts on it. That does not mean that people respect you less, or that they respect tortoises less or that they're not going to do the best possible that they can do for their pets, or even that they're not willing to learn (in most cases, anyway)! 

Your questions don't shade our opinions of you, and I hope our answers don't shade your opinion of us! We're all here for the same reason - tortoises and to gain more knowledge and understanding of them and their care (in all aspects). Some of us have more learning to do than others! Some of you can offer more teaching on the subject! So keep up the good work, don't get frustrated, don't take differing opinions to heart, and keep on loving those tortoises the way you do!!!!


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## Jacqui (Feb 1, 2008)

JustAnja said:


> All I can say is I am glad this forum is not run like a Nazi war camp and we do have the freedom of free thought and speech here. This forum IS different.



I totally agree. I for one, find these kinds of opinion debates to be great stimulation of the mind. As to a question as to what a newcomer would think if they read this thread, I would hope he/she would see what I see. That this is an open group with a great love of our tortoises. A place where we share thoughts freely...even ones going against the grain. Where we can question each other's thoughts too, not just blindly follow.

Yes we showed emotions, geesh I would feel badly if we didn't. Emotions show your deep commitment and caring.

To me it comes down to check out where your getting the animal from and check out the animal. There are no blanket right or wrong places to get an animal. When the day is done, what really counts? The animal. That it is being given the best chance for survival it can be given.


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## Redfoot NERD (Feb 1, 2008)

cvalda said:


> Terry, I understand that you are frustrated because many of the replies to this question are not what you wanted to hear. I can't speak for everyone here, but please know that the great majority of us do respect you and value your opinions, insight and understanding on tortoises and tortoise care (I know I definately do)!
> 
> When a question is posed that makes people think, and think HARD, (as yours did) you are going to run the whole gamut of answers and thoughts on it. That does not mean that people respect you less, or that they respect tortoises less or that they're not going to do the best possible that they can do for their pets, or even that they're not willing to learn (in most cases, anyway)!
> 
> Your questions don't shade our opinions of you, and I hope our answers don't shade your opinion of us! We're all here for the same reason - tortoises and to gain more knowledge and understanding of them and their care (in all aspects). Some of us have more learning to do than others! Some of you can offer more teaching on the subject! So keep up the good work, don't get frustrated, don't take differing opinions to heart, and keep on loving those tortoises the way you do!!!!




Kelly [ and anyone else that wants to hear this ].. what makes y'all think I'm frustrated? Concerned yes.. with some that "keep" tortoises. And it wouldn't be wise to elaborate on that.. any!

However at the risk of being totally misunderstood.. being a long term keeper and breeder of Chelonians for well over 30 years - YES I ACTUALLY BOUGHT A TURTLE FROM A PET STORE IN 1976 - it's almost come to the old saying.. "This would be a great business if it weren't for [ "most" of ] these humans"! I'm starting to sound like and OLD farmer.. aren't I??? But there are always going to be those that have.. whatever that is.. this thing that makes them feel like they are misunderstood or need to be the center of attention or have to have 1 or 12 of everything or have the last word or are jealous or greedy - the list goes on and on.

So be assured the actual Q? of Why not buy from pet stores? wasn't for me to learn from.. I've experienced virtually every aspect of this hobby/business. I don't really care what anybody thinks. Remember I'm only here for those that want help.. and having said that there will be those that choose to misunderstand or be offended or accuse me of being arrogant, etc., etc. by that statement. So to calm those raging rebellious spirits I better say.. "Of course I'm anxious to learn wherever possible"!

So THANK YOU Kelly.. for your concern. 

Terry


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## terryo (Feb 1, 2008)

Redfoot NERD said:


> So be assured the actual Q? of Why not buy from pet stores? wasn't for me to learn from.. I've experienced virtually every aspect of this hobby/business. I don't really care what anybody thinks. Remember I'm only here for those that want help.. and having said that there will be those that choose to misunderstand or be offended or accuse me of being arrogant, etc., etc. by that statement. So to calm those raging rebellious spirits I better say.. "Of course I'm anxious to learn wherever possible"!



How humble of you Terry!
My oldest box turtle is 50 yrs. +. I have been raising water turtles, and Koi for over 21 years, but I have learned so much since having a computer, and still learning every day. 
EVERYONE buys from Pet stores. If I saw a tortoise..turtle..being mistreated in a pet store, I would buy it in a heartbeat, if for no other reason than to try to save it. 
Sorry Terry...I still find you very comical.


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## Crazy1 (Feb 1, 2008)

Terry, again I say, thanks for the lessons.


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## Laura (Feb 1, 2008)

My 25c worth...(inflation ya know,,,) is regardless if you are a pet store or a breeder, you should always be open to educate, support conservation, and always be willing to help or rescue your species of animal. Wether its a dog or tortoise. If you are a breeder, at least assist in finding a new home if the need arises or take it in from the person and find a new home. And pet stores need to educate people better BEFORE purchase and also take them back if it doenst work out. If not willing or able.. then dont breed/sell.


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## Redfootedboxturtles (Feb 1, 2008)

This thread makes me want to goto the petshop and see what they got. =-))


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## Redfootedboxturtles (Feb 2, 2008)

They had baby sulcatas and green iguanas..... and hatchling snapping and soft shell turtles.


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## terryo (Feb 3, 2008)

Here in NY any baby under 4 in. ...either a tortoise or a turtle of any kind....is illegal. I have been to most all the pets stores here and you never see anything really small. Of course if you know your pet store manager, he will get you anything you want.


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## cvalda (Feb 3, 2008)

Redfootedboxturtles said:


> They had baby sulcatas and green iguanas..... and hatchling snapping and soft shell turtles.



LOL!!! Nothing you needed, though?


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## Crazy1 (Feb 3, 2008)

Terryo there is a Four Inch Turtle Law that is nation wide and states;

The sale or commercial distribution of viable turtle eggs and small turtles (carapace length less than 4 inches) for use as pets is banned under 21 CFR 1240.62. The ban is based on the Public Health Service Act (section 361, 58 Stat. 703) and therefore applies to both intrastate and interstate sale and distribution.

*Exceptions to the ban *under 21 CFR 1240.62 *permit sales of turtles and turtle eggs for use in bona fide scientific, educational, or exhibition purposes other than as pets *and of marine (ocean) turtles. *Other exceptions to the ban are the sale of turtles and turtle eggs not in connection with a business (e.g., limited sales between turtle fanciers have been permitted) or that are intended for export*.

_The reason for this ban essentially was:_
The ban applies to small turtles (under 4 inch carapace length) because these are most likely to be held for sale as children's pets, and the purpose of the ban is to protect children from turtle-born salmonellosis.

Seems in a lot of states that sell hatchlings they use the educational or scientific law. If you ask they some even have a paper you sign stating such. a lot of large chains still will not carry those under 4 inches. However the law has become loose. Even if you call "Food and Drug Administration Consumer Complaint Coordinators" little or nothing is done at least here in CA.


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## Redfootedboxturtles (Feb 3, 2008)

cvalda said:


> Redfootedboxturtles said:
> 
> 
> > They had baby sulcatas and green iguanas..... and hatchling snapping and soft shell turtles.
> ...



I was just thinking to my self. Do they sell anything that doest get Humongous.....


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## Yvonne G (Mar 4, 2008)

Several years ago when Russians were a "new" thing, I went to Southern Calif and visited a wholesale reptile place. They had a huge back lot on black-top. They made several pens on the black-top (+100 degree weather) and in each pen were russian tortoises separated by sex and size. So there were about 2 pens of smaller males, 2 of smaller females, 2 of larger, etc. They were on the blacktop with a little bit of alfalfa hay to hide in. There were about 300 or 400 animals in each pen and there was room in the pen to lay them side-by-side for about 50 animals. So they were all piled up on top of each other. Some dead ones and some very lethargic ones. Poop (runny and black) all over everyone. Flies all over the place. This is a place that sells to pet shops. If you bought 6 you could get them for $10 apiece. If this one wholesaler had these thousands of tortoises at one time, can you imagine how many were taken out of the wild to supply ALL of the wholesalers?

This was my awakening. I've never bought from a pet shop again. And if I visit a pet shop for supplies or food and they have tortoises for sale, I immediately go back home and print out a bunch of care sheets for that type of tortoise and take them back to the pet shop. These are usually received with good grace, and I've seen them pass them out to the buying customers.

There is the school of thought, "If I don't buy him and get him out of this bad environment he might die." "If I don't buy him someone else will, so why not me?" Well, if the tortoise isn't sold, or if he dies, the shop will just replace him with something else that will sell. If he dies, they probably send the carcass back and get a replacement. 

If we can convince the turtle-buying public to search out breeders and only buy captive bred tortoises, the law of supply and demand takes over. Pretty soon the pet shops will be forced to buy from breeders too.

Yvonne


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## gtm (Mar 4, 2008)

There are pets shops and pets shops. There's a specialist shop near me thats excellent and there's another one that is revolting. I would happily buy from the former but not the later. This should not be a black and white issue.


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## Jacqui (Mar 4, 2008)

I can see where such a disgusting site could make a permanent and heavy impact on a person, Yvonne. Not something I would want to see.

Of course there are those breeders who only think of them as money and don't give correct care either. Just look at anything else and the same is true, such as dog breeders. Fortunately they are still few, but I think they will increase in numbers as the availability of animals also increases. Most current tortoise folks do it for and with love and caring.

True overall a captive bred from the breeder is best, followed by a captive breed sold by a pet store, last would always be WC. However, as with anything, you need to research just who your getting the animals from.

I personally still refuse to sit back and watch a tortoise suffer and die in a pet store, just to prove a point and perhaps get the store to stop selling them. Then again, I am one of those who stops for torts along the road and takes in any stray animal who comes along.

If it dies and they can get a replacement for it for free, where do the stores learn a lesson? I think if we talk to them and educate the stores (as well as the public) a better lesson is learn without loss of life by the animal.

Maybe with species like redfoots and russians for examples, the loss of life isn't quite as bad as for a species not on stable ground. For some species that loss of an adult animal with breeding possibilities can have an impact.


Yes it takes away from the wild population but is there still a chance for the wild population? Will it if not sold into pet trade, go into the food trade? Will the species be able to maintain itself in the wild or is it's only future lying in the hands of captive breeding programs? Where should captive breeding programs get their stock?

It's a subject with valid points for both sides and some very emotional ones. I think in the end you have to weigh the options and your own values and heart and do what is right for you. Nobody should be downed or made to feel guilty about their choices.


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## Itort (Mar 4, 2008)

Yvonne, the mistreatment of russian tortoises is a classic example. Unfornately your witness is not unique. I have seen this reported and documented in many different locales. One of the larger chains when presented with this evidence just blow it off as not them. I think russians are great torts and deserve better. I encourage anyone interested in any tort to buy from breeders but then again I'm preaching to the choir.


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## jungleman (Mar 4, 2008)

Some shops are good and some are bad......one that I didn't like when I was shopping for a pair of Sulcatas was an independently owned store... the animal environments seemed clean and correct.....................so I'm there with my kids and they want to see the "cute as a button" baby tortoises....................one of the store employees (not a kid, but mid-forties)...grabs a scared little baby Sulcata,.... it was in the typical tortoise guarded body posture with its head retracted and front legs guarding its face............so the employee grinds his finger into the little guy's tail and backside until his head pops out so that we can see how cute he is.....to the little Sulcatas' credit, he urinated all down the front of the employee's pant-leg...........we called it a day....later, I heard from a fellow carpenter that his sister raised lots of reptiles and had some new baby Sulcatas....gave her a call....went to see her....this woman loved her reptiles....had many varieties.....her baby Sulcatas resulted from two 15 year old breeders.....good natural grazing conditions and shelter from the mild Arizona winters....she fed the babies nothing but organic foods...strict low protein diets................THIS is where I bought the two babies which just happen to have turned out to be one male and one female......7 1/2 years later, I've got babies.....................I gave some of them to my kids and after 3 months, sold 15 to a pet shop.....this was also an independent pet shop.....it was big enough to have a separate reptile department with a guy who had been there over three years, managing nothing but reptiles.....he asked me all the right questions...about age, source, the adult parent lineage, diet, care, etc...................................So , in respnse to the intial question, yes, I guess I would buy from a pet shop IF I knew as much about it as I do this one.


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## terryo (Mar 4, 2008)

I would have bought the little mis-treated Sulcata from the pet store, rather than from the breeder. But then again, I am always in trouble from thinking with my heart instead of my head.


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## Dreamer (Mar 4, 2008)

Well, I discussed this with Terry privately, but.......my first RF tort has come via petshop. I just happened to be there when the breeder
brought three yearlings in. The manager from the store let me have mine for his price. Now... for the rest of the story.
He also has a Leopard, a Sulcata,& a Moutain tort all kept in the same aquairum. It is a very lg. one..but all these different
torts with different needs being kept together. I like this guy & we have many discussions on this fact. 
BTW the yearling RF torts from this breeder all came in with pyramiding,albeit slight, but none the less there. 
Soooo looks like neither in this case, breeder or pet shops, husbandry is up to par.


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## bettinge (Jul 2, 2009)

I feel that the odds of getting a healthy tort/reptile are in your favor when purchased from a breeder. I also think that it is the cheepest option! Vets and drugs are not cheep, and a sick pet will cost much more than shipping in a healthy pet from a breeder. I feel that breeders not only have the knowledge of raising a certain breed, they have a vested interest. They raise torts because they want to, where as pet stores sell torts because they want to make a profit. Not that I feel making a profit is bad, I just think that profit comes before education and health!


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## shelber10 (Jul 3, 2009)

Well i would buy from my pet store because most of the torts they sell are hatchlings or yearlings. And the only torts that they have that are wild caught are ussually russian tortoises


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## tortoisenerd (Jul 3, 2009)

I agree that I wouldn't blanket statement pet stores. I got a CB hatchling russian from a pet store that had rave reviews. I would have preferred getting him directly from the breeder, but he was taken care of well at the pet store. I would not however get a wild caught tort from a typical pet store. I made sure to have several personal recommendations of this particular pet store although I did not see it in person (he was shipped). I felt more comfortable with the 1 day stress on the tort of being shipped vs. the stress of being wild caught and the other potential problems that go along with that.


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