# Pumpkin as a dewormer



## Madkins007 (Dec 18, 2009)

I was doing some research (imagine that!) on the possibility of using pumpkin as a dewormer for my tortoises- what sort of dosing would it take, etc. and I ran into two interesting things...

1. Most sites and discussions focus on the pumpkin SEEDS as doing the magic. If the animal crushes seeds as it eats, serve them as is. If it does not crush the seeds, you have to crush, chop, or puree them first. 

I found about 50 references to pumpkin seeds for every reference for just plain pumpkin. This makes sense- most plant seeds contain certain poisons to keep them all from being eaten. Apple seeds and peach pits, for example, have toxins in them. The toxins are what supposedly kill the worms... which leads to...

2. There is little scientific evidence it does any good. Almost every controlled study done so far with pumpkin seed or other herbal dewormers on a variety of animals has shown that the herbal dewormers have no measurable benefit.

Deworming is a big deal for ranchers and others who work with a lot of animals, and chemical dewormers are harsh and dangerous- so there is a huge market for safer, herbal dewormers. People swear by several concoctions and a dozen herbs but so far they seem to have little effect.

On the other hand... a lot of apparently respectable sites and sources seem to think that herbal dewormers offer benefits, like this site- which has a lot of interesting things to say about the subject even though it focuses on cows: http://eap.mcgill.ca/agrobio/ab370-04e.htm. (It even references what appear to be studies in favor of herbals, but I don't have access to most of those studies so have no idea what they involved.)

So, although most research suggests it won't do anything, there is still some support for the idea. It could be a useful tool for prevention or managing very minor infestations, but I would see a vet for a real infestation, imported animals, etc.

Based on what I saw, I would say that this might be a helpful program for tortoises:
1. Make up a mix of crushed or pureed pumpkin seeds. Add a little fresh garlic and fresh ginger, and a few crushed mustard seeds. (The theory here is that most sources recommend a combination of herbal dewormers for maximum effect.)
2. Serve daily for a week, making sure all exposed tortoises get some. Can be served with other foods. (FYI- the dose for adult humans is considered by some to be 1-2 tablespoons.)
3. Repeat the dosage in 3 weeks to kill new parasites (wormers rarely kill the eggs, so must be repeated).
4. Repeat everything every 6 to 12 months to prevent new infestations.
5. Be sure to do what you can to minimize the risk of worms and parasites to begin with. The McGill article at the very bottom has a lot of good info on this.


....................
Sources:
References to pumpkin SEEDS-
- http://www.florahealth.com/flora/home/Canada/HealthInformation/Encyclopedias/PumpkinSeed.htm (interesting article- I wish it had more citations)
- http://backtobasicliving.com/blog/pumpkin-seed-chicken-dewormer/
- http://www.herbaldewormer.com/
- etc. Just google 'pumpkin dewormer' for thousands more.

Studies and vet responses-
- http://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...serid=10&md5=c87f0861335251bf2a755a396ad5957b
- http://www.animavet.com/NaturalDewormers.pdf

Good article on parasites and management:
- http://eap.mcgill.ca/agrobio/ab370-04e.htm


----------



## Shelly (Dec 18, 2009)

I wonder if most torts even need deworming? If a tort has worms, but is thriving and appears %100 healthy, why not let it be? Seems that maybe sometimes the cure is worse than the disease.....


----------



## stells (Dec 18, 2009)

Yep i have said before that it is the seeds that you need and not the flesh... 

If a tortoise has a few worms its not going to be a problem... its if the animal gets overloaded with them that they can be a burden...


----------



## dmmj (Dec 18, 2009)

well deworming is a good idea because even if the tortoise or turtle is healthy and striving if they experience stress, from moving into a new enclosure or other factors then they can get sick from what would be considered normal parasite loads. My 2 cents.


----------



## DoctorCosmonaut (Dec 18, 2009)

If you look at it, most animals in the wild and even more humans in underdeveloped countries have parasites. Its not pretty, and with humans it can be very dangerous, but for the most part it is pretty natural. Even millions of humans live with parasites through their whole lives with minimal, if any, problems from them. Unless your tortoise is acting noticeably sick, deworming is not necessary in my opinion.


----------



## Stephanie Logan (Dec 18, 2009)

Many of the conditions we treat animals and humans for have more to do with the "ick factor" than scientifically-proven necessity.

Think dandruff, bad breath, acne, body odor, varicose veins, bunions, wrinkles, freckles, not to mention large noses, small breasts and saggy butts! Boy are we a homely species, or what?

Too bad pumpkin is not a natural dewormer, though. It sure would be handier and less expensive than veterinary treatment.


----------



## Yvonne G (Dec 18, 2009)

DoctorCosmonaut said:


> If you look at it, most animals in the wild and even more humans in underdeveloped countries have parasites. Its not pretty, and with humans it can be very dangerous, but for the most part it is pretty natural. Even millions of humans live with parasites through their whole lives with minimal, if any, problems from them. Unless your tortoise is acting noticeably sick, deworming is not necessary in my opinion.



Yes, but animals in the wild have access to plants that they can eat that will help them rid themselves of their parasite load. When we keep a tortoise locked up in a small habitat chances for them to become infested with parasites are greater than a tortoise that roams far and wide, and doesn't graze all over an area where he has pooped.


----------



## dmmj (Dec 18, 2009)

Re: humans I prefer small noses and large breasts myself.


----------



## Stephanie Logan (Dec 18, 2009)

dmmj said:


> Re: humans I prefer small noses and large breasts myself.



Would that be _all_ humans?


----------



## Madkins007 (Dec 18, 2009)

Wild vs. captive animals with parasites:

Certainly most wild animals, including tortoises, have a parasite load- often quite a large one. The problem is that when take the animals out of the wild and add all kinds of stresses- different sights and sounds, different light, different diet, different humidity, different hides, different everything- we change 100% of their lives.

With this stress, the parasite load blooms, secondary infections rise up, and so forth. This is all part of what is often called 'maladaptation syndrome'- a sort of generic term for wild animals not adapting well and becoming ill or dying.

Re: Worming in general

I would agree that a newly acquired wild tort, or an obviously ill or infested tort should be looked at and treated professionally to remove as much of the load as possible. I would not trust herbal or other option in this sort of casr

The thing about herbal dewormers that make the idea so popular to livestock keepers is that they can use it on otherwise healthy animals without worry- real dewormers are incredibly toxic. Any of us can follow the pumpkin seed plan even without knowing if we need to do it or not.

I am not a big fan of 'we may as well try it, it can't hurt', but I do think that applies here. Its cheap and easy, no negative side effects I can find, and I bet the tortoises would actually like it. If it only serves as a minor preventative, why not? The only risk I can think of is that you might ignore a real infestation thinking that the seeds are doing it all for you.

BUT- don't overlook the other lessons of the McGill article- there are things we can do to limit exposure to many common parasites and prevent infestations in our captive bred animals.


----------



## Stephanie Logan (Dec 18, 2009)

I have read that Chaco tortoises are particularly susceptible to "maladaptation syndrome", so in some ways it's rather surprising that Taco survived her first 3 years with egregious neglect from her owners.

I wish you'd posted this sooner, though. I just boiled a pumpkin yesterday to cut up and freeze for Taco, and I put all the seeds down the garbage disposal! Guess I'll be buying another pumpkin...

Also Mark, are the worms that tortoises get invisible to the naked eye? I have seen worms in the stools of various cats we have adopted over the years, and those intestinal worms are quite visible so treatment is more probable.


----------



## Luvthemtorts (Dec 18, 2009)

I have been using a similar approach for many years with favorable results.
For my mix I use parts of Plantago Major (the seeds and stems) and shelled pumpkin seeds. Chuck the ingredients in a blender to create a fine powder and sprinkle on their greens twice a week. A sufficient amount of fiber needs to be supplied to avoid loose stool.
I worked with my veterinarian for the first few years to see if there was any marked difference in parasite burden between control groups and the fecal slides showed very positive results.
I would like to stress that this is not intended to replace worming of new aquisitions but rather as a naturalistic approach to keep parasite burdens within healthy parameters.
Lastly, when treating parasites with chemical compounds there is a relatively fine balance between control and inducing Sterile Gut Syndrome when metronidazole is part of the treatment. I choose to be proactive with a natural and nutritious approach if it means relying less upon toxic compounds.


----------



## tortoisenerd (Dec 18, 2009)

Thanks for all this wonderful info! I am a firm believer in frequent fecal tests for parasites and only treating if parasites are present, and with proven treatments if the numbers are large. I felt it was more important to treat my tort's parasites in case he got some other illness on top of it, not so much just to treat the parasites themselves. He never showed symptoms yet had a rather moderate parasite load for both the worms and coccidia. I hope now that both have been treated and tested clear, and he has little chance of reintroduction, he'll stay healthy.


----------



## Madkins007 (Dec 19, 2009)

Stephanie Logan said:


> Also Mark, are the worms that tortoises get invisible to the naked eye? I have seen worms in the stools of various cats we have adopted over the years, and those intestinal worms are quite visible so treatment is more probable.



I know some of the worms are visible and fairly easy to see, others are mostly seen as floating eggs in stool samples, and some probably are pretty dang small and/or do not show up in stool often. I have not got around to researching specific worms and parasites yet- although there is a book on the subject I have on my wish list!


----------



## Shelly (Dec 19, 2009)

Madkins007 said:


> there is a book on the subject I have on my wish list!



Maybe Santa will bring you a book on intestinal parasites.


----------



## Madkins007 (Dec 19, 2009)

I know you meant it as a joke, but these really are on my Amazon Wishlist!

Understanding Reptile Parasites (http://www.amazon.com/dp/1882770218/?tag=exoticpetnetw-20 or the newer version- http://www.amazon.com/dp/1882770900/?tag=exoticpetnetw-20) and

Parasite Rex (although it is about human parasites, it is a really interesting book!) (http://www.amazon.com/dp/074320011X/?tag=exoticpetnetw-20 

And for the rest of you this holiday season, a quick link about reptile parasites in general: http://www.anapsid.org/parasites1.html


----------



## webskipper (Dec 19, 2009)

Stephanie Logan said:


> Think dandruff, bad breath, acne, body odor, varicose veins, bunions, wrinkles, freckles, not to mention large noses, small breasts and saggy butts! Boy are we a homely species, or what?



What's wrong with small breasts? They defy gravity longer.


----------



## Stephanie Logan (Dec 20, 2009)

Haha, I agree!

My point there was to list some of the things we humans _want_ to change, and _do_ change, and _spend lots of money _changing, even though they are not fatal or even "serious" conditions, in most cases!


----------

