# Sulcata Hatchling Pyramiding Experiment



## Tom (Apr 18, 2010)

I've recently built a three tier hatchling tortoise table. See it here, post #34:
http://tortoiseforum.org/thread-12973-page-3.html

The main reason for building it is to test out all these pyramiding theories. I intend to do two hatchlings per tub, just to show some consistency. All six babies will be from the same clutch and genetically identical (Don't get technical! You know what I mean. Same mother and father). There are a lot of possible variables and that is the reason for this post. I already have three adults that were raised on this same ranch, in this same room, in the same outdoor sunning/exercise pens on the same diet I'll feed these. The difference will be humidity. My three current adults were all raised in very dry, hot, arid conditions because I mistakenly thought that's what they needed. So we know what will happen if they are raised dry, here in this location on the local weeds and grasses. This is my "control", so to speak.

I would like ideas from you ladies and gentlemen about what would be the best way to raise these three separate pairs to best as many of the prevailing theories as possible.

For starters, the room humidity is now around 50% 24/7. It used to be in the single digits. They will all be raised on the same orchid bark/soil substrate. Formerly I used rabbit pellets and then "Sani-Chips" until they were big enough to be moved outside on to the dirt, permanently. The tops of their tubs will be partially covered with plexi-glass to keep the moisture and humidity up. Room temp is 75-77 at night and 80-86 during the day. It will probably hit the low 90's during the hot summer months.

For one tub, I will use an 18" square Kane heat mat on the surface, instead of an overhead heat bulb. One breeder has been raising smooth South African Leopard babies using this as part of his strategy. The other two tubs will have 50 watt incandescent, overhead flood bulbs with the height adjusted to offer a basking spot on a flat rock of about 100-110 degrees.

I thought the next variable could be diet. Maybe raise one pair on spring mix with regular calcium and vitamin fortification. One pair on grass, weeds and cactus, with no supplements. And one pair on Mazuri, again no supplements.

They will all get one or two hours of sunshine a day, in a large, watered pen, for most of the year and no other artificial UV.

I'm a ways away from starting this experiment as I have to hatch out the babies. I've got two different sources that are going to give me eggs as soon as they see some. One is the guy who gave me Daisy, so I know the eggs will be vialble. I may incubate 8-10 just to make sure I get six healthy hatchlings to start with.

I will want my peers to review this experiment at all phases, starting now, before I even begin. The point is to end the arguments once and for all. We can see right now what happens when I raise them dry in this area. I will keep all other variables the same and see what happens when I raise them with humidity and moisture.

To recap: Same species, same location, same water, same diet, same supplements, same room, same temps, same set-up, DIFFERENT humidity and moisture levels. We will see, first hand, what happens. I intend to post a weekly or monthly pictorial update and keep it going for at least a couple of years.


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## kimber_lee_314 (Apr 18, 2010)

This is really interesting! I'd love to be part of something like this - although will you feel bad for the ones that pyramid (if they do?)


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## RichardS (Apr 18, 2010)

You can't introduce multiple variables in a simple experiment. Stick to humidity or intensity of overhead lighting, or diet, but not all three.


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## tortoisenerd (Apr 18, 2010)

What are you going to do with the babies after the few years? Are you prepared to raise them if you can't find homes? How are you justifying bring more Sulcatas into this world? Not sure I agree with that even though it is for science (and believe me I love experiments)... Also, I think quite a bit of research has been done on this subject and some rather good care sheets are out there to minimize pyramiding. I don't quite understand your goal as in my opinion we have the answer to your questions. Don't get me wrong I think its a great idea, but I'm not sure I understand why you are wanting to do it.


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## Tom (Apr 18, 2010)

kimber_lee_314 said:


> This is really interesting! I'd love to be part of something like this - although will you feel bad for the ones that pyramid (if they do?)



Unless I'm just dead wrong, none of them will pyramid. I do feel bad on a regular basis that I didn't know better sooner for the benefit of my older tortoises.



RichardS said:


> You can't introduce multiple variables in a simple experiment. Stick to humidity or intensity of overhead lighting, or diet, but not all three.



You are right, but this is just going to be a bit of an informal experiment to prove to myself what I'm already pretty sure of. Over the next couple of decades, I'll suss out all the finer points. This is mainly to determine if high humidity and moisture will prevent pyramiding, assuming all else is good. The diet and different heating methods are just to see if anything else makes a difference for pyramiding or growth rates.



tortoisenerd said:


> What are you going to do with the babies after the few years? Are you prepared to raise them if you can't find homes? How are you justifying bring more Sulcatas into this world? Not sure I agree with that even though it is for science (and believe me I love experiments)... Also, I think quite a bit of research has been done on this subject and some rather good care sheets are out there to minimize pyramiding. I don't quite understand your goal as in my opinion we have the answer to your questions. Don't get me wrong I think its a great idea, but I'm not sure I understand why you are wanting to do it.



Kate, a lesser man might be offended or insulted by your response. I'm only mildly irritated. First of all, I don't need any justification for bringing more sulcatas in to the world. They are wonderful outdoor pets and I wish there were more of them in the world.

Second, I'm not brining more into the world, the breeder is. I'm only incubating his eggs.

Third, I'm going to keep the babies. How cool will it be to have a herd of smooth sulcatas. If they pyramid, maybe I'll make some tortoise soup and give it to the starving, homeless people of the world.

Fourth, there is no care sheet that everyone agrees on and no one, except the few pros that do it regularly, really know how to prevent it. I want to prove it, at least to myself, once and for all. I don't want somebodies opinion of how to minimize it. I want to know exactly what causes it and exactly how to eliminate it and completely prevent it. Nothing less will satisfy me and there is no other way to get this info. If we had the answers to this, there wouldn't be such long debatable threads about it. In fact, very few people agree on this subject. Take one of these care sheets you've seen and raise a smooth sulcata or leopard by following it, then lets have a conversation.

I hope this clears up some of your questions. Even though, I'm mildly irritated, I do thank you for asking questions that made me give some more thought to what I'm doing. I know you mean well, but your time would be much better spent discouraging the breeding of dogs, cats, horses and other animals that are REALLY over-bred.


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## t_mclellan (Apr 19, 2010)

Tom;
Do I understand you correctly or is my CRS kicking in again?
You plan to keep the humidity the same in all 3 enclosures & feed different diets.
Am I correct? Wait! The CRS just took a break! MAYBE!
Humidity equal & food, lighting & heat will differ?
If this is the case I think I might agree with RichardS, That you will not truly achieve your goal.
Just a thought here;
If your going to do 3 set-ups, Why not 7?
This would allow you to keep the humidity equal in all 7 & alter lighting in 2, Alter heating in 2, Alter diet in 2. Allowing 1 to be the control from which all others differ?

Shoot me a PM. There are a few things I would like to discuss with you.


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## Annieski (Apr 19, 2010)

There is another variable to offer, if I may? I read that the yolk sac provides continued nutrition for up to almost 9 months during the reabsorption phase[maybe this is why hatchlings don't need to have an acquired taste for weeds and grasses in the beginning]. Perhaps the other variable could be less feedings per week to better simulate "the wild"?


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## RichardS (Apr 19, 2010)

Hi Tom,
I appreciate what you are trying to accomplish, but in the end, I donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t think youÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ll be proving anything other than reinforcing something that you already believe in. That being the situation, itÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s most likely best not to subject your pets to an experiment. Science is impartial. The whole idea of going into an experiment having already made up your mind does not make for good science. 

In order for something like this to work and have the potential to prove anything, the experiment would have to take place over a number of years. I would also suggest using multiple species within the family Testudinidae to have any hope of applying your findings between species. Maybe use, carbonaria, elegans, pardalis, and sulcata? Two specimens for each would not be enough. Without doing the math, I would guess 5-10 in each group would give you a good average and take into account a few could die over the course of the experiment. 

The animals would need to be dissected and have their bone growth examined by a qualified person to determine what the actual differences in growth were. The observations will need to be quantified so you could draw your conclusions based on the numbers. 

You would need to document everything daily including weighing the food. You may have had to feed them separately, to ensure one bully in the group could not over eat. If you were planning to use a supplement, that may have required individual dosing as well to ensure equal intake. 

Remember, its not what you know, its what you can prove. I think an experiment like this will happen, but it will be at a university where multiple people will be monitor the variables.


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## chairman (Apr 19, 2010)

I think the hobbyists of the tortoise world could greatly benefit from what you're trying to do, even if it isn't "scientific". Unless I'm reading things wrong, though, it sounds like your setups/diets are going to be too varied to really home in on "one" key pyramiding variable (assuming there is a primary variable). If you are looking to compare the results of three different husbandry approaches, what you are planning will work. If you're looking to identify a "key" pyramiding variable, you need to alter your approach a bit. At the maximum you can look at 3 variables, and that would be if you set up the tortoises exactly as they were the first time with one change for each setup. That would mean sani-chips, original diet, original supplements, original outdoor time, original access to water/soaking, original bulb type, original temps... you get the picture. But it sounds like you want to make some across the board changes from the original, which means you will need to set up a new control, and you can only test 2 variables. I think that would probably be the best approach.

My recommendation would be to set up the control in a sort of minimalist approach, the kind of thing you'd expect to see in your average "semi-informed" keeper... bark/soil substrate, hot hide(humid), cool hide(normal), incadescent bulb as heat source/basking spot. Keep the humidity at ambient. Feed a "standard" tortoise diet of mixed greens. Provide a cuttle bone. Supplement all, or only one (variable 2). Provide a shallow water dish.

For variable 1, using a kane mat instead of a bulb (since it sounds like you have already purchased the mat), make a duplicate setup to the control with the exception of the bulb. This will test whether heat from below affects pyramiding vs heat from above.

For variable 2, pick a variable and go with it. If you want to boost humidity, water the substrate daily. If you want to slow growth, feed less frequently. If you want to add UVA/UVB(above and beyond outdoor time), do that. If you want to supplement, do that. If you want to feed exclusively mazuri, do that. Just only pick one, and keep everything else the same as the control.


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## terracolson (Apr 19, 2010)

Tom,

Right on! I am glad I have some one like you in my life! Willing to take the time to learn from experience and share you knowledge!


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## Annieski (Apr 19, 2010)

I agree with Chairman 100%. The control group is the most important--everything else works around what that set-up results are , with only one thing changing in each of the other groups, after the same basic set-up is established.


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## Tom (Apr 19, 2010)

Annieski said:


> There is another variable to offer, if I may? I read that the yolk sac provides continued nutrition for up to almost 9 months during the reabsorption phase[maybe this is why hatchlings don't need to have an acquired taste for weeds and grasses in the beginning]. Perhaps the other variable could be less feedings per week to better simulate "the wild"?



I've never heard the 9 month thing. Interesting. I fed my current three big ones that way (and lots of others too) and all it did was make them undersized, but still pyramided.


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## Rhyno47 (Apr 19, 2010)

Kudos Tom, good luck! But if you are going to make soup from the pyramided ones you should also have an experiment to see if pyramiding makes them taste worse than the smooth ones or the other way around.


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## Tom (Apr 19, 2010)

RichardS said:


> Hi Tom,
> I appreciate what you are trying to accomplish, but in the end, I donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t think youÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ll be proving anything other than reinforcing something that you already believe in. That being the situation, itÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s most likely best not to subject your pets to an experiment. Science is impartial. The whole idea of going into an experiment having already made up your mind does not make for good science.
> 
> In order for something like this to work and have the potential to prove anything, the experiment would have to take place over a number of years. I would also suggest using multiple species within the family Testudinidae to have any hope of applying your findings between species. Maybe use, carbonaria, elegans, pardalis, and sulcata? Two specimens for each would not be enough. Without doing the math, I would guess 5-10 in each group would give you a good average and take into account a few could die over the course of the experiment.
> ...



No argument from me on all the technical scientific stuff. If, however, a guy raises a bunch of tortoises one way and has pyramiding, then raises a bunch another way, only changing one variable (humidity), and has no pyramiding, that will be "proof" enough for me. I'm not expecting this to stand up to scientific scrutiny. I do hope that it will stand up to the scrutiny of my peers, the majority of the forum members here. Thank you for your input.

I'm not "subjecting my animals to an experiment". I'm raising six new, awesome little babies the best possible way I know how. This is all I've ever done, but I know much more now than I did then.



chairman said:


> I think the hobbyists of the tortoise world could greatly benefit from what you're trying to do, even if it isn't "scientific". Unless I'm reading things wrong, though, it sounds like your setups/diets are going to be too varied to really home in on "one" key pyramiding variable (assuming there is a primary variable). If you are looking to compare the results of three different husbandry approaches, what you are planning will work. If you're looking to identify a "key" pyramiding variable, you need to alter your approach a bit. At the maximum you can look at 3 variables, and that would be if you set up the tortoises exactly as they were the first time with one change for each setup. That would mean sani-chips, original diet, original supplements, original outdoor time, original access to water/soaking, original bulb type, original temps... you get the picture. But it sounds like you want to make some across the board changes from the original, which means you will need to set up a new control, and you can only test 2 variables. I think that would probably be the best approach.
> 
> My recommendation would be to set up the control in a sort of minimalist approach, the kind of thing you'd expect to see in your average "semi-informed" keeper... bark/soil substrate, hot hide(humid), cool hide(normal), incadescent bulb as heat source/basking spot. Keep the humidity at ambient. Feed a "standard" tortoise diet of mixed greens. Provide a cuttle bone. Supplement all, or only one (variable 2). Provide a shallow water dish.
> 
> ...



You are correct. I will narrow it down before it all starts. Thanks.



Annieski said:


> I agree with Chairman 100%. The control group is the most important--everything else works around what that set-up results are , with only one thing changing in each of the other groups, after the same basic set-up is established.



Here's my tentative plan:
I'm using my current three big ones as a control. These new ones will have the same basic set-up except for substrate and humidity.

One tub will get the exact same diet and set-up as my older ones, but with the humidity.
The second tub will get the same set-up , but be fed primarily Mazuri.
The third tub will get same diet and set up as the first, but with a heat mat instead of an overhead bulb.

If I see any sort of health problems adjustments will be made. As I said before these are not scientific test subjects, they are my pets. The welfare of the animals is of primary importance to me. If I can advance tortoise knowledge without harming them in any way, I think I ought to.


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## ChiKat (Apr 19, 2010)

At first I was wondering why you were adding all the variables, because for example, if you had the hatchlings in the dry enclosure fed a different diet, how would you know what was causing the pyramiding- the dry environment or the diet? 
But now that I see your plan on your most recent post, it makes more sense to me!
So now are all three tubs going to have the same amount of humidity? 

Are you going to have a group where you keep the environment dry, but you just spray their shells? (the scute lubrication you were talking about)

That would be awesome if you could do this on a HUGE scale where you had tubs and tubs of tortoises, controlling different variables such as humidity, diet, lighting, etc. 

This is very interesting and I can't wait to see the results! I hope you know you have to post updates (including pictures!) very often


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## Tom (Apr 19, 2010)

ChiKat said:


> At first I was wondering why you were adding all the variables, because for example, if you had the hatchlings in the dry enclosure fed a different diet, how would you know what was causing the pyramiding- the dry environment or the diet?
> But now that I see your plan on your most recent post, it makes more sense to me!
> So now are all three tubs going to have the same amount of humidity?
> 
> ...



I'm just planning this one for now, but down the road, I'd like to test out more theories. I think I will keep them all very humid and spray all the shells for this one. The variables will be diet and belly heat for this one. The main thing I want to accomplish here is to raise a smooth sulcata. I have every reason to believe this will work and no reason to believe it won't.


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## Annieski (Apr 19, 2010)

Tom, if I may ask 1 question about the mats and belly heat---will they be able to leave the heated "ground"? My thinking of burrows and humidity is that there is an absence of solar heat in a burrow and the "natural" humidity[and addition of urine for moisture] is why a tortoise will retreat to a burrow to avoid the sun and weather.


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## Tom (Apr 19, 2010)

Annieski said:


> Tom, if I may ask 1 question about the mats and belly heat---will they be able to leave the heated "ground"? My thinking of burrows and humidity is that there is an absence of solar heat in a burrow and the "natural" humidity[and addition of urine for moisture] is why a tortoise will retreat to a burrow to avoid the sun and weather.



Absolutely. The heat mat is 18x18" and will be on one end. The enclosure is 5x3'. Plenty of room to get away from it. There is a guy I've heard of raising smooth Leopards and this is one of the things he's been doing. I haven't talked to him yet, but I will before I get started. I've always thought of belly heat as a total no no. I've told everyone whose ever asked not to do it. However, Iv'e learned a few new things lately and I'm trying to keep an open mind. If its shell moisture that helps prevent pyramiding, then it makes sense to me that hot overhead lights aren't going to help with that.


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## chairman (Apr 20, 2010)

Initially I thought it was a little odd that you were contemplating the belly heat thing in the first place. But now that you've explained yourself it sounds like you may be on to something. The tortoise community now "knows" that baby tortoises have different humidity requirements than adults do (at least for several desert species)... I suppose it would also make sense that babies could would have different heat source requirements as well. Who knows, perhaps in a decade we'll all recommend using undertank heating for the first couple years and then swap to the MVBs later in life. The undertank heating would sure help with the humidity vs the bulbs.


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## Annieski (Apr 20, 2010)

The other thing I was thinking of---if heat rises, the distribution should radiate outward which gives a bigger area and more of a varient--just as the sun does in a downward projection. Do the mats come in direct contact with the substrate? and how are they protected against electrical damage with pee and water contact? Just curious?


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## Tom (Apr 20, 2010)

chairman said:


> Initially I thought it was a little odd that you were contemplating the belly heat thing in the first place. But now that you've explained yourself it sounds like you may be on to something. The tortoise community now "knows" that baby tortoises have different humidity requirements than adults do (at least for several desert species)... I suppose it would also make sense that babies could would have different heat source requirements as well. Who knows, perhaps in a decade we'll all recommend using undertank heating for the first couple years and then swap to the MVBs later in life. The undertank heating would sure help with the humidity vs the bulbs.



BINGO!



Annieski said:


> The other thing I was thinking of---if heat rises, the distribution should radiate outward which gives a bigger area and more of a varient--just as the sun does in a downward projection. Do the mats come in direct contact with the substrate? and how are they protected against electrical damage with pee and water contact? Just curious?



Reptile heat mats are actually "pig blankets". They are made to be outdoors, in the elements, with a sow and her babies walking, laying, pooping and peeing on them. This is what most people use for their outdoor tortoise houses. They come in different sizes. They are very heavy duty. Yvonne and Maggie have some that have been in continuous use under 100+ pound sulcatas for more than a decade. I've been using mine for about 7 years now. Check these out.
http://tortoiseforum.org/thread-12237.html


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## Annieski (Apr 20, 2010)

Tom said:


> chairman said:
> 
> 
> > Initially I thought it was a little odd that you were contemplating the belly heat thing in the first place. But now that you've explained yourself it sounds like you may be on to something. The tortoise community now "knows" that baby tortoises have different humidity requirements than adults do (at least for several desert species)... I suppose it would also make sense that babies could would have different heat source requirements as well. Who knows, perhaps in a decade we'll all recommend using undertank heating for the first couple years and then swap to the MVBs later in life. The undertank heating would sure help with the humidity vs the bulbs.
> ...





Thank's--a picture is worth a thousand words.


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## Jacqui (Apr 23, 2010)

This is pretty much what I wanted to do, but with Redfoots. Lucky you to be able to have the animals to use. 

You really shouldn't use your older animals for the controls. In order to be fair all need to be the same age/size and except for the one test item, everything else needs to be identical, this includes the control animals.

As to the belly heat, I for one have and do use it for some animals, including hatchlings.


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## stells (Apr 28, 2010)

Sorry if i have missed it but are you going to raise any of these hatchlings dry?


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## Yvonne G (Apr 28, 2010)

stells said:


> Sorry if i have missed it but are you going to raise any of these hatchlings dry?



I THINK that his older animals (the control group) were raised dry.


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## stells (Apr 28, 2010)

Oh ok... i was just under the impression Tom had tried many things with his older animals over the years... so in my eyes for the experiment to be a good one... hatchlings should also be raised the same as the one's being kept humid... same diet etc... but dry...

Then the experiment will still only MAYBE.. conclude that you need/don't need humidity with hatchling SULCATA'S... to really test the theory you would need to test it on a variety of species... for it to stand any ground...

Of course this is just my opinion


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## jackrat (Apr 28, 2010)

Tom,if it doesn't work out,I have a dynamite turtle soup recipe given to me by Paul Prudhomme.


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## stells (Apr 28, 2010)

Sorry me again... lol

Read this again trying to get it in my little head... this is a quote from the op

To recap: Same species, same location, same water, same diet, same supplements, same room, same temps, same set-up, DIFFERENT humidity and moisture levels. We will see, first hand, what happens. I intend to post a weekly or monthly pictorial update and keep it going for at least a couple of years. 


I'm abit confused... in the op you also said that you were going to feed DIFFERENT diets... also if you are keeping the hatchlings in a three tiered enclosure... the ones on top will be warmer than the ones at the bottom... so you will have temperature fluctuations too... You are also going to have some on heat mats and some with overhead lights... sooooooooo you are going to have a few different things going on here so i am wondering how you are going to pinpoint growth just on the humidity... to do this everything HAS to be totally the same apart from the humidity... if not people are going to be able to say well you also did this that and the other with these hatchlings...

Seems abit like you are just doing this to make everyone think the same way as you do... why not just raise your tortoises how you want to raise them... if you get the most beautiful Sulcata's doing it that way then just let people make their own minds up as to whether they want to follow your route... instead of playing about with these hatchlings to try to convince people.... and possibly messing up a few tortoises while you experiment...


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## Tom (Apr 30, 2010)

Good points Kelly. I am basically going to raise these new babies in what I believe to be the best way possible. If I can help it, I'll never raise another one dry again. The main point of my endeavor is to demonstrate that proper humidity and hydration will prevent pyramiding. At the same time, I do want to see what the belly heat does AND what a high Mazuri diet does. I believe, whole heartedly, that each of the three "methods" are valid, healthy ways to raise a tortoise. We all say there is more than one way to do it right, right? My guess is that all six will grow up smooth and the Mazuri fed ones will grow bigger, faster. I am truly curious if the belly heat ones will grow up smoothER due to the lack of hot, dessicating, overhead lighting.

The temp is pretty consistent in my three tubs. Never more than a few degrees different from top to bottom.

I am making a bit of a show of it because there is still a lot of debate on this topic, but not enough pics of smooth leopards or sulcatas to silence the naysayers. I really want to be able to say, with absolute certainty, that if all other elements of husbandry are correct, that humidity really is the deciding factor for pyramiding, or not, in sulcatas and Leopards. I'm singling out these two species because they are so prone to it AND because I love having them around. BTW my Leopard hatchlings will be coming later and will be housed humid, but not in my rack of tubs.


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## stells (Apr 30, 2010)

But you still need to test each theory seperately to get a good conclusion on either one... if humidity stick with humidity... keeping everything else the same... if its trying different diets... stick to the diets... keeping everything else the same... if its "belly heat" v's overhead heat... just test these... keeping everything else the same... you can't do them all together and draw and acurate conclusion... on any single one of the factors.. to do this of course you would need more hatchlings... more tubs... more time...


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## Tom (Apr 30, 2010)

stells said:


> But you still need to test each theory seperately to get a good conclusion on either one... if humidity stick with humidity... keeping everything else the same... if its trying different diets... stick to the diets... keeping everything else the same... if its "belly heat" v's overhead heat... just test these... keeping everything else the same... you can't do them all together and draw and acurate conclusion... on any single one of the factors.. to do this of course you would need more hatchlings... more tubs... more time...



I get what you are saying and you are right. In one of the three tubs, I'm going to do exactly what you are advocating. I'm only changing one variable from the way I've always kept them: Humidity. The other two bins are different experiments entirely, but because of the humidity, I'm betting that none of then pyramid.


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## -ryan- (May 6, 2010)

I think it would be interesting enough just to recreate the humidity experiment, however when that was done before they did have to try different diets as well to make sure that the diet didn't have an effect. The conclusion to that experiment indicated that the tortoises with high humidity had the smoothest shells regardless of UVB or diet. However, I can't seem to find any pictures to accompany the original experiment. Come to think of it, I might have to look up the experiment itself because I haven't read it in a year or so. It would be really interesting to have an 'insider' do the experiment again and take pictures throughout the process. They will be your tortoises though, and I think any information we can glean from your experiment will be beneficial.

Good luck and keep us informed.


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## -EJ (May 9, 2010)

The cause for pyramiding will never be 'proved'... too many variables.

This little anecdotal experiment could add to the evidence. 

It sounds like a neat, well thought out experiment that could give some insight. 

Many tortoise keepers, including myself, do such 'experiments'... it adds to the learning process.

oh... Terry... when are you going to start destroying the eggs you produce? Don't you think there are enough RFs floating around and they are produced in the thousands in SA. They just can't sell the babies in the US.



RichardS said:


> Hi Tom,
> I appreciate what you are trying to accomplish, but in the end, I donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t think youÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ll be proving anything other than reinforcing something that you already believe in. That being the situation, itÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s most likely best not to subject your pets to an experiment. Science is impartial. The whole idea of going into an experiment having already made up your mind does not make for good science.
> 
> In order for something like this to work and have the potential to prove anything, the experiment would have to take place over a number of years. I would also suggest using multiple species within the family Testudinidae to have any hope of applying your findings between species. Maybe use, carbonaria, elegans, pardalis, and sulcata? Two specimens for each would not be enough. Without doing the math, I would guess 5-10 in each group would give you a good average and take into account a few could die over the course of the experiment.
> ...


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## Tom (May 9, 2010)

-ryan- said:


> I think it would be interesting enough just to recreate the humidity experiment, however when that was done before they did have to try different diets as well to make sure that the diet didn't have an effect. The conclusion to that experiment indicated that the tortoises with high humidity had the smoothest shells regardless of UVB or diet. However, I can't seem to find any pictures to accompany the original experiment. Come to think of it, I might have to look up the experiment itself because I haven't read it in a year or so. It would be really interesting to have an 'insider' do the experiment again and take pictures throughout the process. They will be your tortoises though, and I think any information we can glean from your experiment will be beneficial.
> 
> Good luck and keep us informed.



Hi Ryan. Thanks for the support. Here's a link to that article. Its on the pyramiding section of Africantortoise.com., way down at the bottom of the page, after all the other info that I disagree with.
http://africantortoise.com/_sulcatadiet2.pdf


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## DeanS (May 9, 2010)

I mentioned this in "GROWING TOO FAST" but I acquired my 2 ivory babies (Snowflake and Eggroll) a few months back. I was very pleased with both (even though Eggroll is a little pyramided). Snowflake (and my two normal babies, Jimmy and Climber) are perfectly smooth. My goal is to inhibit any further pyramiding by upping the moisture...not just the humidity. It's really no big deal, but an hour before I move them into their night dens (indoors), I fill a LITTLE TIKES wading pool to plastron height and let them roam around until it's time to go in. I know they're too young to notice any significant changes but I can say for a fact that there's been no increase since they came into my care. 






This Eggroll the day I brought him home...I took him because he was HUGE for 6 months old...just massive and an absolute freak...as my son said...the Arnold Schwarzenneger of tortoises.





The first time I implemented the pool idea.





Eggroll on April 1, 2010





Eggroll on May 2, 2010

This is just an idea I came up with...please slam me with your ideas, criticisms, etc. I will update photos every month or so!


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## Kayti (May 9, 2010)

Dean- Your tortoises are beautiful. 

I used to soak my growing Russians _every _day, because I thought that would raise the humidity more- but they still pyramided. (I didn't have enough humidity/moisture in their substrate.) The soaking probably kept them hydrated, but at least in my case didn't stop pyramiding.


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## DeanS (May 9, 2010)

Kayti said:


> Dean- Your tortoises are beautiful.
> 
> I used to soak my growing Russians _every _day, because I thought that would raise the humidity more- but they still pyramided. (I didn't have enough humidity/moisture in their substrate.) The soaking probably kept them hydrated, but at least in my case didn't stop pyramiding.



I keep their hide caves (there are 3) and night boxes loaded with damp timothy (yes, I change it out daily)...plus their outdoor enclosure is misted twice a day.


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## Kayti (May 9, 2010)

DeanS said:


> Kayti said:
> 
> 
> > Dean- Your tortoises are beautiful.
> ...



Then I'm sure they wont pyramid- but I just don't think soaking alone does anything for pyramiding.


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## Tom (May 9, 2010)

Kayti and Dean. Thanks for contributing all this info. More pieces to the puzzle for all of us. Hydration, or lack thereof, is often listed as one of the contributing factors for pyramiding. At least in your case, the daily hydration didn't seem to help. It didn't help in my case either With all 4 of my sulcatas.

Just to reiterate it for anyone who hasn't heard it yet, here's my POV: Most knowledgeable keepers list several causes or contributing factors for pyramiding. Usually its hydration, diet (with emphasis on too much protein), calcium, UV or lack thereof(artificial or natural), and sometimes exercise. I contend that these things have very little to do with it. All of these things are very important for proper care of any tortoise, but I don't think they have much to do with pyramiding. Only in the last couple of years has humidity become a suspected factor for most people.

In my opinion, lack of sufficient humidity is the CAUSE of pyramiding. Other things might contribute to it, but this is the cause. This is based on all sorts of research AND personal observations from literally all over the world.

I have four reasons to strongly believe this running around right now. All of mine had all of the above factors well covered, EXCEPT humidity. Conversely, I've seen people all over the place that did NOT have any or all of those things covered, but because their tortoises grew up in a very humid environment, they grew up smooth.

Another factor that has recently come up is the time frame when this growth pattern is established. I believe whatever pattern (pyramided or not) is established in the first few days or weeks, is how its going to be. I got Daisy at 3 months old heavily pyramided and Dean's Eggroll was a little pyramided at a very young age too. Its really hard to stop it once it starts. I've heard from several breeders that if you can get them smooth to about 6" or so, it doesn't matter what you do after that, they will continue to grow smooth.

Hopefully, when this new batch of babies gets to about a year or two we'll have a pretty good idea of whether I'm right or not.


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## -EJ (May 9, 2010)

One more time folks...

With the best diet (whatever that is) and the best hydration(whatever that is)... all that is worthless unless you have the proper temperatures to metabolize the stuff. Now.. the stuff can be metabolized but it will not be metabolized properly without the proper temperatures.

With good heat and hydration you would be surprised at how forgiving the other stuff can be.

I keep several tortoises bone dry and they have zero pyramiding. Those that do have a little pyramiding are species that seem to be prone to pyramiding.

Again the 2 main factors seem to be Heat, first, and hydration second.



Tom said:


> Kayti and Dean. Thanks for contributing all this info. More pieces to the puzzle for all of us. Hydration, or lack thereof, is often listed as one of the contributing factors for pyramiding. At least in your case, the daily hydration didn't seem to help. It didn't help in my case either With all 4 of my sulcatas.
> 
> Just to reiterate it for anyone who hasn't heard it yet, here's my POV: Most knowledgeable keepers list several causes or contributing factors for pyramiding. Usually its hydration, diet (with emphasis on too much protein), calcium, UV or lack thereof(artificial or natural), and sometimes exercise. I contend that these things have very little to do with it. All of these things are very important for proper care of any tortoise, but I don't think they have much to do with pyramiding. Only in the last couple of years has humidity become a suspected factor for most people.
> 
> ...


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## DeanS (May 9, 2010)

Just to clarify further...I live in the High Desert...currently about 85. I bring them out if it's at least 75...at peak hours of the day...If they are kept inside...their habitats fluctuate between 80 and 100...their dens are about 75 with 10 - 20 % humidity. I've been here what? three days? and this is my favorite topic so far...Fife set some GREAT groundwork a few years back and it's AMAZING to see the variations people have developed since. Keep up the good work and Tom! Thanks for starting such a GREAT thread!


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## Tom (May 9, 2010)

-EJ said:


> One more time folks...
> 
> With the best diet (whatever that is) and the best hydration(whatever that is)... all that is worthless unless you have the proper temperatures to metabolize the stuff. Now.. the stuff can be metabolized but it will not be metabolized properly without the proper temperatures.
> 
> ...




[/quote]

Ej, mine have always had adequate heat and proper gradients. Didn't stop them pyramiding. Are you telling us you disagree with the humidity thing?


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## -EJ (May 9, 2010)

I'd be willing to bet you are wrong on the temperatures you are providing. You might want to add a heat mat in a section of the enclosure and see what happens. Yup... it is my opinion. 

Humidity is part of hydration. There is intennal hydration and external hydration.

Without the heat even the external humidity is not very beneficial.



Tom said:


> -EJ said:
> 
> 
> > One more time folks...
> ...





Ej, mine have always had adequate heat and proper gradients. Didn't stop them pyramiding. Are you telling us you disagree with the humidity thing?
[/quote]


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## Kayti (May 9, 2010)

I assume EJ means 'internal' not 'intennal'...

Either way, my Russians have always had the same heat set up their entire lives - full spectrum day, ceramic heater nights- and only with an increase in humidity/moisture has there been any positive change in their growth.


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## Tom (May 9, 2010)

Ej, what are the right temps? You've obviously raised a whole lot of torts and if my temps have been wrong all these years, I'd certainly like to learn what they ought to be.

Are you talking about heat mats like the Kane heat mats for hatchlings? This is not the first time I've heard this and I'm actually planning this for a couple of upcoming sulcata hatchlings.


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## Kristina (May 9, 2010)

The heat thing kind of got me thinking...

Ever seen a pyramided RES? I have. Lots of times.

So, what causes the pyramiding in a WATER turtle? Obviously it is not humidity. Some believe it to be too much protein/overfeeding. It is possible. Overfeeding a turtle that doesn't get enough exercise COULD contribute. It is believed to contribute in tortoises, right?

But what if keeping the turtle too cold had a lot more to do with it than we thought?

Just an idea.

I don't think upping the humidity is going to be a cure all. I think there are too many other factors.


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## Tom (May 9, 2010)

Good point. Time will tell. I wonder if a grass eating desert dwelling tortoise pyramids for a different reason than a meat eating aquatic turtle.

I have seen mal-formed shells in RES, but nothing that I would call pyramiding in the sense of a sulcata or a leopard. In the RES I've seen there was no basking site, no UV and too cold temps. Usually the water was foul and the diet poor too. I don't know which factor or combination of factors causes the mis-shappen shell in these RES, but it seems quite a lot different than the pyramiding effect, so common in the desert species of tortoises.


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## Kristina (May 9, 2010)

Adult RES are no more meat eaters than a RF or Hingeback  They are mostly meat eaters as hatchlings, but become more vegetarian as they mature.

And I am talking true pyramiding, not malformation.


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## stells (May 10, 2010)

Just to say i don't disagree with the whole humidity thing... i do have humid areas in SOME of my tortoise enclosures... but have also had good results with tortoises that i have raised dry... 

I think some people are getting to stuck on the humidity thing and are not taking other factors... like temps (as Ed said)... and other variables into play


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## Tom (May 10, 2010)

stells said:


> Just to say i don't disagree with the whole humidity thing... i do have humid areas in SOME of my tortoise enclosures... but have also had good results with tortoises that i have raised dry...
> 
> I think some people are getting to stuck on the humidity thing and are not taking other factors... like temps (as Ed said)... and other variables into play



I think this is different for different species and I think this is mostly about hatchlings. I'm mainly talking about sulcatas and Leopards as they seem really prone to it AND many other people who are much more knowledgeable and experienced with them than me have come to the conclusion that humidity is the key. Again, my sulcatas had all of the things listed as causes of pyramiding totally covered, except humidity, and they pyramided a lot. It is not a coincidence that people who live in humid areas have sulcatas and Leopards that are a less less pyramided than mine. I live in the driest of dry areas and mine all grew up in outdoor pens, out in the hot dry air everyday. Then they came in at night to a dry house with electric heaters and CHEs on a dry substrate. No one in my area has ever had a respiratory infection, but no has ever grown a smooth Leo or sulcata either. Go to South FL or New Orleans and look at the sulcatas and Leos raised outdoors there. At first, I tried to insist they were wild caught imports, but the evidence was just overwhelming. Most of these people were at or below average as far as knowledge of tortoise care and their techniques were quite variable, but they all had smooth torts.

We can all share opinions and discuss it all day, but the proof will be in the pudding, or not. A year from now, we'll see what my new hatchlings look like and go from there. I've already got four examples of raising them dry using MY techniques. Soon I'll have several examples of what they look like using my techniques AND humidity.


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## DeanS (May 10, 2010)

When I worked at Lion Country Safari in West Palm Beach, I saw a lot of sulcatas and only a handful showed any signs of pyramiding...the one we had did look WC...and very well could have been (hole drilled in pygal)


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## Tom (May 10, 2010)

DeanS said:


> When I worked at Lion Country Safari in West Palm Beach, I saw a lot of sulcatas and only a handful showed any signs of pyramiding...the one we had did look WC...and very well could have been (hole drilled in pygal)



Thanks Dean. I am determined to get this figured out once and for all. Info like yours helps. I did see pyramided torts in those areas, but they were raised indoors, in A/C under hot lights, on a dry substrate.


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## stells (May 10, 2010)

Thats the part i don't get... and probably never will... you say about your "control group" but also say you tried various things with them in the past... so it isn't just down to the fact that you raised them dry... it could be down to a number of other things...


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## DeanS (May 10, 2010)

Tom said:


> DeanS said:
> 
> 
> > When I worked at Lion Country Safari in West Palm Beach, I saw a lot of sulcatas and only a handful showed any signs of pyramiding...the one we had did look WC...and very well could have been (hole drilled in pygal)
> ...



Exactly! The sulcatas raised outdoors (strictly) were not pyramiding at all, while the ones with artificial (indoor) environments were more inclined to pyramid. A GREAT point you make about A/C, because in FL, the A/C seems to eliminate any indoor humidity. Plus, the ONLY reason to bring torts indoors in FL would be to eliminate the predator problem (raccoons). I never saw temps drop below 65 (even in winter), so humidity is a bigger piece of the puzzle than most people think. Nevermind how arid the Sahara is...these are captive raised animals and ALL environments are artificial no matter how nice the habitat, no matter what plants, grasses, weeds, etc they have access to... anything not North Central Africa is not natural habitat and it is our responsibility as tort keepers to ensure that we make ALL strives to create that PERFECT environment for them, given the resources at our disposal! Ouch! That almost sounds like preaching!


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## -EJ (May 10, 2010)

What other points can you deduce from the tortoises having access to the warm outdoors?



DeanS said:


> Tom said:
> 
> 
> > DeanS said:
> ...


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## DeanS (May 10, 2010)

-EJ said:


> What other points can you deduce from the tortoises having access to the warm outdoors?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Warm is GREAT! Hot is better! The Brits have it great because as the temps go up so does the humidity. As in Africa (in their natural environment [what's left of it]), they get plenty of humidity in their burrows from residual moisture from roots in the soil above them and whatever seapage found its way beneath them...let's be honest, it's only a haven when you consider the 120+ temps at the surface. After awhile, those burrows will increase in temp (probably as high as 90) so the humidity will skyrocket. Think about that when summer hits and these guys look for ccover for the bulk of the day...a nice moist burrow will be most welcome indeed!

Something just popped in my head...This past winter, Mortimer would get restless and I'd HAVE to give him some time to roam the yard a bit...when he was done I'd find him right under the vent for my dryer duct and he'd be covered in moisture...and now I just took the opportunity to weigh him and he's 11 pounds heavier than he was in September...I don't know if there's any corrolation here, but it's pretty damn curious.


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## Redfoot NERD (May 10, 2010)

kyryah said:


> The heat thing kind of got me thinking...
> 
> Ever seen a pyramided RES? I have. Lots of times.
> 
> ...



Kristina my experience with 'water' turtles is pyramiding from too high protein food.. when hatchlings.

Of course 'too high' protein will have an affect on herbivorous tortoises also.


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## -EJ (May 10, 2010)

Total BS... too much protein is not a factor. Imbalanced protein might be a factor.

I've yet to see a study or even anecdotal evidence to suggest that 'too much' protein is a major factor.



Redfoot NERD said:


> kyryah said:
> 
> 
> > The heat thing kind of got me thinking...
> ...


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## Redfoot NERD (May 10, 2010)

It does not matter to me what others think or believe or deny.. and I agree with Richard Fife ( although he has not made it public yet ). All other factors the same.. regardless the species.. the "wet" carapace ( misting the carapace until it drips ) keeps the carapace growing smooth.. from hatchling on.

I appreciate the fact that this may be too simplistic.. but I've tried the ways the old caresheets suggested. Maybe simpler IS better!?

Terry K


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## DeanS (May 10, 2010)

I have played so many varients of what Richard has sworn by that I'm seeing this sh*t in my dreams...misting them when they come out...misting them in their sleep, saturating their hides during the day, moistening their bedding mid-afternoon so that it's merely damp when I put it in their den boxes...and the list goes on and on...


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## Tom (May 10, 2010)

Dean, That's what I've been doing with my already pyramided 2 year old. She's all wet all the time and she lives in a total swamp. I think its too late for her, but the new growth does seem to be coming in smooth. This is a big part of why I want to hatch out my own and keep them humid from day one.

I didn't know you were doing all these things with yours too. No wonder they are all so smooth! I should have guessed.

EJ, glad your back in the discussion. Please tell us what you think the ideal temps to prevent pyramiding in sulcatas are. You told me a few posts back that you'd bet my temps were wrong. If I've got them wrong, then I (and everyone else) need to know what's right. Especially before I start up with these new hatchlings.


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## -EJ (May 10, 2010)

I believe Richard does not swear by anything. He presents his results... 



DeanS said:


> I have played so many varients of what Richard has sworn by that I'm seeing this sh*t in my dreams...misting them when they come out...misting them in their sleep, saturating their hides during the day, moistening their bedding mid-afternoon so that it's merely damp when I put it in their den boxes...and the list goes on and on...


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## Tom (May 10, 2010)

ED! TEMPS PLEASE.


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## DeanS (May 10, 2010)

-EJ said:


> I believe Richard does not swear by anything. He presents his results...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Same difference...and, of course, no disrespect to Mr Fife...just my choice of words


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## Tom (May 10, 2010)

stells said:


> Thats the part i don't get... and probably never will... you say about your "control group" but also say you tried various things with them in the past... so it isn't just down to the fact that you raised them dry... it could be down to a number of other things...



Kelly, I love it that you are keeping me honest here. What did I say that I've tried in the past? The only thing new that I've tried has been with Daisy, my two year old. I've been experimenting with new things with her, and failing BTW, but the three adults were housed and cared for pretty consistently for the last 12 years. What I learned from Daisy is that once the pattern of pyramiding is established in the first few weeks or months in a sulcata, it is nearly impossible to halt it. In time, all the big sulcatas seem to smooth out, but they look like knobby tires for a few years first.

Here's the history on my big three. Tell me what has been inconsistent. As hatchlings in July 1998 the two boys started in a 100 gallon glass tank, approximately 60x18", on rabbit pellets with a 60 watt Pearlco CHE on 24/7 and a 50-75 watt flood on a 12-14 hour timer. Room temp was 75-80 in the winter and 80-85 in the summer. I switched to grass hay pellets after a year or so, then to Sani-Chips two years or so after that. They always had a basking spot of 110-130 and the cool side of the cage stayed ambient. When they outgrew this, I built them a big wooden box, now called a tortoise table, that was 70x40". Delores was introduced into this enclosure. She was 2 or 3 and they were 4-5. They all had a large 15x30' outdoor pen here in the CA high desert and spent most of their time in there except cold winter days and night time. I always brought them in at night. The two boys were in this outdoor pen from day one. Delores lived mostly indoors, until I got her at 2 or 3 years old. For a while their indoor pen was half of my living room floor, roughly 9x12'. When the boys were around 7, 2005, I made them an outdoor night house with pig blankets and moved them outside permanently. Its very dry here, usually single digit humidity, and warm for most of the year. Very hot summers. 100 is the norm and sometimes 115-120. They've been living in their large outdoor pen the same way since then.

Since they were a desert species and had to be kept dry, no water dish. They did get warm water soaks several times a week for 30-40 minutes.

Diet has alway been a mixture of store bought greens, grass, weeds and an assortment of other stuff off of the tortoise "safe" lists. Only in the last couple of years did I introduce the grass hay. When they were babies, I gave them Calcium 2 or 3 times a week and vitamins once a week. I slowly tapered that down as they got older and bigger.

Daisy has been basically housed the same, here in the same area, with the same diet, but with ever increasing humidity and moisture. Its been pretty swampy in her enclosure for nearly 9 months now. Her new growth does SEEM to be smoother, but time will tell.

For anyone else reading this, please understand I'm addressing past MISTAKES here. This is NOT how it should be done. Most of this is still how I think it should be done, but the substrate, dryness and lack of hydration is ALL WRONG.


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## stells (May 10, 2010)

This is one post that springs to mind... bear with me though... have the school run to sort out... then i am sure i can find more 

http://tortoiseforum.org/thread-11653-post-101713.html#pid101713


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## kbaker (May 11, 2010)

Redfoot NERD said:


> It does not matter to me what others think or believe or deny.. and I agree with Richard Fife ( although he has not made it public yet ). All other factors the same.. regardless the species.. the "wet" carapace ( misting the carapace until it drips ) keeps the carapace growing smooth.. from hatchling on.
> 
> I appreciate the fact that this may be too simplistic.. but I've tried the ways the old caresheets suggested. Maybe simpler IS better!?
> 
> Terry K



What does a Sulcata do when he is in a puddle or mud???















He is telling you something....















If you don't hose me down, I will flip it onto my shell myself.


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## DeanS (May 11, 2010)

kbaker said:


> Redfoot NERD said:
> 
> 
> > It does not matter to me what others think or believe or deny.. and I agree with Richard Fife ( although he has not made it public yet ). All other factors the same.. regardless the species.. the "wet" carapace ( misting the carapace until it drips ) keeps the carapace growing smooth.. from hatchling on.
> ...



I LOVE THAT! Simplicity at its best (through the mind of a tortoise).


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## chadk (May 11, 2010)

Gotta say that my Dozer loves flipping dirt and mud on his back.

Just the other day I was filling his water dish \ wading pool as he was walking around me. I decided to spray off some of the built up dirt on his back. He just sat there as I sprayed. I put in on a finer mist and started on his head. He pulled in for a second, then popped back and out and seemed to like me spraying his head as well. Then he walked away and turned around and deliberately walked right back through the spray and just parked there soaking it in with neck stretched out.


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## Tom (May 11, 2010)

stells said:


> This is one post that springs to mind... bear with me though... have the school run to sort out... then i am sure i can find more
> 
> http://tortoiseforum.org/thread-11653-post-101713.html#pid101713



I re-read the whole post and don't see where there are any husbandry changes or inconsistencies in the 3 adults, and only the new one, Daisy, has had anything different. For Daisy it was too little, too late.

Please be patient with me, I want to see your point. I'm just not seeing it yet.

Chad, Kevin, Dean and Terry, just the other day, I was watering the weeds in my big pen and Scooter came running over to stick his nose in my business, so I gave him a little squirt. He closed his eyes, dropped to the ground, stuck his head out and started flinging the mud up on his back. I let him finish and then I wanted to rinse the mud off. The whole process just kept repeating itself. It was comical. I'd rinse off the mud, he'd plop down and fling on more. Maybe we ought to try mudpacks as a pyramiding preventative!

As a side note, on the rare occasion when it rains here, they all come out of their houses and sit in the rain, at night, in the DEAD OF WINTER. I have to go put them back in and block their doors so they don't freeze to death.


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## DeanS (May 11, 2010)

Yeah! Mortimer and Aladar love it when the sprinklers go on...they will move from their basking spots to seek out the 'rain'.. plus whenever I'm hosing the flower beds, I'll hose them off as well...they always duck their heads in initially, but then it's all good. I have been trying to devise a proper mudbath (excellent method of sustained moisture, especially for the shell).


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## Tom (May 11, 2010)

DeanS said:


> Yeah! Mortimer and Aladar love it when the sprinklers go on...they will move from their basking spots to seek out the 'rain'.. plus whenever I'm hosing the flower beds, I'll hose them off as well...they always duck their heads in initially, but then it's all good. I have been trying to devise a proper mudbath (excellent method of sustained moisture, especially for the shell).



I just dig a big hole with a shovel and drop a hose in there. Very messy. They love it. I usually do this during those really hot summer days when its 115 out.


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## DeanS (May 11, 2010)

I'm actually think about acquiring another LITTLE TIKES pool strictly for mudbaths...and I'm gonna use a large tupperware to let the babies plop around in.


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## ChiKat (May 11, 2010)

Tom said:


> ED! TEMPS PLEASE.



Yes please! I want to know too!!


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## DeanS (May 11, 2010)

ChiKat said:


> Tom said:
> 
> 
> > ED! TEMPS PLEASE.
> ...



With all this talk of sprinklers and hoses and mudbaths...let's just say hot! Anything above 85 is ideal...but upwards of 120 would be good too! But c'mon Ed! You started this...now finish it! Whaddya think? 86, 91, hmmmmm?


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## stells (May 13, 2010)

I give up making my point tbh... good luck with the experiment Tom...i hope you get the answers you want from it...


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## Kristina (May 13, 2010)

Okay, did some research....

http://i-cias.com/e.o/sahara.htm



> Sahara has a subtropical climate in its northern parts, and a tropical one in the south. Winters in the north are cold to cool; in the south, mild. Summers are hot all over the desert. The highest temperature every recorded is 58Ã‚ÂºC in Aziziyah, Libya. There is very little rain in the northern parts, virtually nothing in the east, although more in the south. Most rain falls throughout the summer, followed by some scarce winter rain.





> In the KÃƒÂ¶ppen climate classification system, deserts are classed as BWh (hot desert) or BWk (temperate desert). The Sahara is the world's largest hot desert. The vast Sahara encompasses several ecologically distinct regions. The Sahara desert ecoregion covers an area of 4,619,260 kmÃ‚Â² (1,791,500 square miles) in the hot, hyper-arid center of the Sahara, surrounded on the north, south, east, and west by desert ecoregions with higher rainfall and more vegetation. The Sahara desert is one of the hottest regions of the world, with a mean temperature over 30 Ã‚Â°C (86 Ã‚Â°F). Variations may also be huge, from over 50 Ã‚Â°C (120 Ã‚Â°F) during the day during the summer, to temperatures below zero at night in winter.



http://library.thinkquest.org/16645/the_land/saha_cl.shtml



> Dry, subtropical climate
> 
> Generally, the dry subtropical climate found in the north is caused by constant high-pressure cells over the tropic of Cancer. The winters are considered cool for desert conditions, with an average temperature of 55Ã‚Â° F (13Ã‚Â° C). The summers are very hot, with the highest ever recorded temperature at 13Ã‚Â° F (58Ã‚Â° C). The average rainfall in the subtropical region is approximately 3 inches (76 mm) per year. Precipitation generally falls between December and March, with the maximum rain falling in August and almost no rain at all during May and June. The August storms have been known to cause flash floods which send water to parts of the desert that rarely receive precipitation.
> 
> ...



http://www.cites.org/eng/cop/11/prop/38.pdf



> Distribution
> From Mauritania and Senegal to Sudan, Eritrea and Ethiopia, this species is found in a band 500
> kilometres wide between the isohyets of 200 and 800 mm; between 12Ã‚Â° and 18Ã‚Â° north
> latitude. The band descends to 4Ã‚Â° north latitude in the Sudan and rises to 20Ã‚Â° north latitude in
> ...




From what I could find... Average temperatures run from 13*C to 58*C (55.4*F to 138*F) with a median of (86*F)

I would conclude that a low of 70*F at night, with ambient temperature of not less than 85*F and a basking spot of 110*F to be appropriate.

The reason I say 70*F at night and not 60*F is because the ground is going to hold heat much longer than the air, creating a higher ambient temperature inside the burrow.

As to humidity - the range that I found from CITES shows them to occur more in the slightly more humid area to the south of the Sahara, rather than in the extreme arid climate of the north.

Flash floods not being uncommon in arid climates, it is no wonder that a Sulcata would make good use of a sprinkler flooding the yard, and a mud bath while one could be gotten


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## DeanS (May 14, 2010)

Here are Snowflake and Eggroll enjoying their daily mudbath...please note that I am spreading the mud on Eggroll's carapace due to the fact that pyramiding is evident...I'm leaving it on for an hour or so then rise it ALL off...


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