# Breeding from the same clutch?



## rkelleh

I have been doing a lot of reading here and from a couple of books. My babies are from the same clutch and I have no clue on sex yet due to being so young. Nothing that I have read or found specifies that if they breed, it is okay from same clutch. I am not necessarily wanting to breed them down the road however am curious to how torts work on this. Normally you hear with mammals it is bad (i.e. rabbits can go mother/son but never brother/sister). Just trying to educate myself as I am more fascinated everyday by these little ones.


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## Yvonne G

Chances are pretty good that they are both the same sex. Tortoise gender is determined by the incubation temperature.

I don't think a first time line breeding would be bad, but to continue breeding offspring to offspring would eventually end up with some not too thrifty tortoises.


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## Tom

I have been told that this sort of thing is less of a factor with reptiles or insects, but it is still not a chance I want to take. I make sure all my breeding males are unrelated to my females.

This is where networking and doing breeding loans with fellow keepers can come in handy.


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## puffy137

Hmm , wonder if this can cause aggression , maybe torts like to breed within their sphere of reference , i.e. torts they have known since birth .


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## N2TORTS

The effects of inbreeding - both positive and negative. Most of the questions regarding this topic show an almost myopic fear and misunderstanding.
Simply put, inbreeding is the process of breeding together individuals which are related, often quite closely. Inbreeding has a single consequence, it tends to reduce the number of alleles (genes) available within the population. Such concentration of alleles can be viewed as positive, if they are good traits, or negative if they are bad.
Well, there's a number of reasons, all of which can be justified in spite of the dangers involved.
In many very rare species, there may simply be a lack of available breeding stock to utilize in breeding programs. This the case with many of the Australian species. Many of these species have never been legally imported into the United States, and current stocks consist mainly of confiscated specimens held at various zoological institutions. Few of these institutions place much value on captive reproduction and fewer still will allow such captive progeny into the hands of private keepers. As a result, there are few unrelated specimens available to the private sector. So captive breeders are faced with the excruciating choice of either inbreeding their stocks or watching these species vanish from captive collections.
A more common reason for inbreeding is the reproduction of various mutations, such as albinism. Such mutations can represent a large financial investment, as well as being of general interest to many, and there is much incentive to reproduce such individuals. There is absolutely no way to produce additional specimens of these rarities without inbreeding them to some degree. That's simply the reality of it. Each and every albino Burmese Python is in some way related to every other albino Burmese Python. That's just fact.
But inbreeding is in fact, a matter of degrees. In general, the more closely related two specimens are, the less desirable they are as partners for reproduction. In fact, there are laws in most countries regarding the marriage of related persons. You cannot marry your sister, or your cousin, but marrying you fourth cousin twice removed is legal (although if you've heard any jokes about Arkansas hillbillies, you'll know it's not desirable). As I said, it's a matter of degrees.
As we discussed above, inbreeding tends to reduce the number of alleles present. While this is good if the allele has desirable effect, such as albinism, it is bad if the allele has a negative effect such as a spinal deformity. There are many potential negative effects and many are well-known in captive reptile populations already: Bloodred Cornsnakes are a line-bred (euphemism for inbred) line of Cornsnakes notorious for producing small hatchings which are difficult to start feeding. Patternless Leopard Geckos are well known for a lack of fertility in males. These are just two well known examples.
Perhaps more common is simply a general lack of vitality which increases with each successive generation. This is exactly what happened with the Bloodred Cornsnakes mentioned earlier. Early in the development of this beautiful morph, breeders selected stocks based on appearance through successive generations. This had the desired effect of producing more and more attractive snakes by reducing the number of alleles which had a counterproductive effect on appearance and increasing the number which had a positive effect. Sadly, this same concentration of alleles had the opposite effect on the hatchlings' desire to accept rodents as first meals.
Any conscientious breeder will make every attempt to minimize the negative effects of inbreeding through a variety of methods.
A method of primary importance is to utilize out-crossing wherever practicable. Out-crossing involves taking your cherished albino specimen and breeding it to two unrelated wild specimens. You'll now have two groups of heterozygous for albino specimens which are only half-related to breed together. This is much better than breeding the albino directly to his sister, as many new alleles will have been introduced into the population using this method.
Where possible, breeders should attempt to acquire specimens which are unrelated, or close to it, for use as breeders. The use of large groups of unrelated breeders will allow production of many unrelated or partially related offspring by making different pairings each year.
Accurate records should be maintained with regard to lineage. This will allow breeders of future generations to determine exact genetic relationships when selecting specimens for reproduction.
In each and every case, the breeder should attempt to weed out specimens exhibiting undesirable effects. Specimens exhibiting deformities, or which lack vitality should be euthanized or placed with individuals as pets - they should never be used in breeding programs.
Hopefully, this discussion has provided some insight into the subject of inbreeding. We hope that the reader will realize that inbreeding should be viewed as just another valuable tool to be used by knowledgeable breeders, but that its' use must be tempered by good judgment and caution. Without it, none of the beautiful mutations we enjoy in our hobby today would be available.
http://www.vmsherp.com/LCInbreeding.htm
The underlying principle of genetics is the simple understanding that any trait, good or bad, is produced by one or more pairs of alleles. One allele is provided by each parent when the egg is fertilized.
JD-

“The Power of willful ignorance cannot be overstated”


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## puffy137

N2TORTS said:


> The effects of inbreeding - both positive and negative. Most of the questions regarding this topic show an almost myopic fear and misunderstanding.
> Simply put, inbreeding is the process of breeding together individuals which are related, often quite closely. Inbreeding has a single consequence, it tends to reduce the number of alleles (genes) available within the population. Such concentration of alleles can be viewed as positive, if they are good traits, or negative if they are bad.
> Well, there's a number of reasons, all of which can be justified in spite of the dangers involved.
> In many very rare species, there may simply be a lack of available breeding stock to utilize in breeding programs. This the case with many of the Australian species. Many of these species have never been legally imported into the United States, and current stocks consist mainly of confiscated specimens held at various zoological institutions. Few of these institutions place much value on captive reproduction and fewer still will allow such captive progeny into the hands of private keepers. As a result, there are few unrelated specimens available to the private sector. So captive breeders are faced with the excruciating choice of either inbreeding their stocks or watching these species vanish from captive collections.
> A more common reason for inbreeding is the reproduction of various mutations, such as albinism. Such mutations can represent a large financial investment, as well as being of general interest to many, and there is much incentive to reproduce such individuals. There is absolutely no way to produce additional specimens of these rarities without inbreeding them to some degree. That's simply the reality of it. Each and every albino Burmese Python is in some way related to every other albino Burmese Python. That's just fact.
> But inbreeding is in fact, a matter of degrees. In general, the more closely related two specimens are, the less desirable they are as partners for reproduction. In fact, there are laws in most countries regarding the marriage of related persons. You cannot marry your sister, or your cousin, but marrying you fourth cousin twice removed is legal (although if you've heard any jokes about Arkansas hillbillies, you'll know it's not desirable). As I said, it's a matter of degrees.
> As we discussed above, inbreeding tends to reduce the number of alleles present. While this is good if the allele has desirable effect, such as albinism, it is bad if the allele has a negative effect such as a spinal deformity. There are many potential negative effects and many are well-known in captive reptile populations already: Bloodred Cornsnakes are a line-bred (euphemism for inbred) line of Cornsnakes notorious for producing small hatchings which are difficult to start feeding. Patternless Leopard Geckos are well known for a lack of fertility in males. These are just two well known examples.
> Perhaps more common is simply a general lack of vitality which increases with each successive generation. This is exactly what happened with the Bloodred Cornsnakes mentioned earlier. Early in the development of this beautiful morph, breeders selected stocks based on appearance through successive generations. This had the desired effect of producing more and more attractive snakes by reducing the number of alleles which had a counterproductive effect on appearance and increasing the number which had a positive effect. Sadly, this same concentration of alleles had the opposite effect on the hatchlings' desire to accept rodents as first meals.
> Any conscientious breeder will make every attempt to minimize the negative effects of inbreeding through a variety of methods.
> A method of primary importance is to utilize out-crossing wherever practicable. Out-crossing involves taking your cherished albino specimen and breeding it to two unrelated wild specimens. You'll now have two groups of heterozygous for albino specimens which are only half-related to breed together. This is much better than breeding the albino directly to his sister, as many new alleles will have been introduced into the population using this method.
> Where possible, breeders should attempt to acquire specimens which are unrelated, or close to it, for use as breeders. The use of large groups of unrelated breeders will allow production of many unrelated or partially related offspring by making different pairings each year.
> Accurate records should be maintained with regard to lineage. This will allow breeders of future generations to determine exact genetic relationships when selecting specimens for reproduction.
> In each and every case, the breeder should attempt to weed out specimens exhibiting undesirable effects. Specimens exhibiting deformities, or which lack vitality should be euthanized or placed with individuals as pets - they should never be used in breeding programs.
> Hopefully, this discussion has provided some insight into the subject of inbreeding. We hope that the reader will realize that inbreeding should be viewed as just another valuable tool to be used by knowledgeable breeders, but that its' use must be tempered by good judgment and caution. Without it, none of the beautiful mutations we enjoy in our hobby today would be available.
> http://www.vmsherp.com/LCInbreeding.htm
> The underlying principle of genetics is the simple understanding that any trait, good or bad, is produced by one or more pairs of alleles. One allele is provided by each parent when the egg is fertilized.
> JD-
> 
> “The Power of willful ignorance cannot be overstated”


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## Grandpa Turtle 144

But we have to be careful with the other way as well . For as with Leopards their are 2types and when a layman is so afraid of inbreeding that he buys one type male and goes to the other side of town and without knowing it he buys the other type of leopard from the other side of town . Of course he cannt tell the difference . And then breeds them . Now we are loosing the perity of the breed .


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## puffy137

Thank you N2Torts, very much for that explanation. Its not only hillbillies that interbreed , I know a few people here in the middle east who have married first cousins with no ill effects. However I also know of a rather isolated community who have interbred for generations , & now a few of those offspring have abnormalities . I Am tempted to get my paler greeks to breed together in the hopes of getting Golden Greeks , but that would take years to do & I don't know if I will be around to see it .


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## WithLisa

My cousin incubated the eggs of his Hermann's siblings and got some hatchlings without eyes...


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## puffy137

Hmm , I remember human babies were born without eyes owing to insecticides, not sure of the chemical involved , but in UK it was from something that they were spraying on roses.


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## N2TORTS




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## puffy137

N2TORTS said:


>


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## puffy137

This reminds me of Larry , & his brother Darrel & his other brother Darrel , maybe you are to young to have seen that show!


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## N2TORTS

Grandpa Turtle 144 said:


> But we have to be careful with the other way as well . For as with Leopards their are 2types and when a layman is so afraid of inbreeding that he buys one type male and goes to the other side of town and without knowing it he buys the other type of leopard from the other side of town . Of course he cannt tell the difference . And then breeds them . Now we are loosing the "perity" of the breed .




I think he was saying the same thing ......





pu·ri·ty
1. freedom from anything that debases, contaminates, pollutes, etc.: the purity of drinking water.
2.
freedom from any admixture or modifying addition.
3.
ceremonial or ritual cleanness.
4.
freedom from guilt or evil; innocence.
5.
physical chastity; virginity.


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## puffy137

N2TORTS said:


> I think he was saying the same thing ...... lol
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> pu·ri·ty
> 1. freedom from anything that debases, contaminates, pollutes, etc.: the purity of drinking water.
> 2.
> freedom from any admixture or modifying addition.
> 3.
> ceremonial or ritual cleanness.
> 4.
> freedom from guilt or evil; innocence.
> 5.
> physical chastity; virginity.


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## Grandpa Turtle 144

N2TORTS said:


> I think he was saying the same thing ......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> pu·ri·ty
> 1. freedom from anything that debases, contaminates, pollutes, etc.: the purity of drinking water.
> 2.
> freedom from any admixture or modifying addition.
> 3.
> ceremonial or ritual cleanness.
> 4.
> freedom from guilt or evil; innocence.
> 5.
> physical chastity; virginity.


No what I'm saying is people are so afraid of in breeding they buy leopards from two different people but the buyer don't know the difference in leopards one is P. Babcocki and the P .Pardalis . And now it's harder to find a pure bread leopard tort .


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## WithLisa

puffy137 said:


> Hmm , I remember human babies were born without eyes owing to insecticides, not sure of the chemical involved , but in UK it was from something that they were spraying on roses.


Of course I can't be sure, but I don't think that's the cause. They are also breeding rabbits (and keep them together with the tortoises ) that were perfectly healthy at first, but in the 2nd generation they started to get problems, in the 3rd generation most of them were born dead. 

The problem is, if you buy tortoise siblings from a breeder you can't know if their parents were unrelated. Maybe they are already inbred, so it would not be the first generation.


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## N2TORTS

Grandpa Turtle 144 said:


> No what I'm saying is people are so afraid of in breeding they buy leopards from two different people but the buyer don't know the difference in leopards one is P. Babcocki and the P .Pardalis . And now it's harder to find a pure bread leopard tort .


I was just teasing ya Pa'.....
Lot's of opinions on the topic.....no doubt.


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## HLogic

N2TORTS said:


> The effects of inbreeding - both positive and negative. Most of the questions regarding this topic show an almost myopic fear and misunderstanding.
> Simply put, inbreeding is the process of breeding together individuals which are related, often quite closely. Inbreeding has a single consequence, it tends to reduce the number of alleles (genes) available within the population. Such concentration of alleles can be viewed as positive, if they are good traits, or negative if they are bad.
> Well, there's a number of reasons, all of which can be justified in spite of the dangers involved.
> In many very rare species, there may simply be a lack of available breeding stock to utilize in breeding programs. This the case with many of the Australian species. Many of these species have never been legally imported into the United States, and current stocks consist mainly of confiscated specimens held at various zoological institutions. Few of these institutions place much value on captive reproduction and fewer still will allow such captive progeny into the hands of private keepers. As a result, there are few unrelated specimens available to the private sector. So captive breeders are faced with the excruciating choice of either inbreeding their stocks or watching these species vanish from captive collections.
> A more common reason for inbreeding is the reproduction of various mutations, such as albinism. Such mutations can represent a large financial investment, as well as being of general interest to many, and there is much incentive to reproduce such individuals. There is absolutely no way to produce additional specimens of these rarities without inbreeding them to some degree. That's simply the reality of it. Each and every albino Burmese Python is in some way related to every other albino Burmese Python. That's just fact.
> But inbreeding is in fact, a matter of degrees. In general, the more closely related two specimens are, the less desirable they are as partners for reproduction. In fact, there are laws in most countries regarding the marriage of related persons. You cannot marry your sister, or your cousin, but marrying you fourth cousin twice removed is legal (although if you've heard any jokes about Arkansas hillbillies, you'll know it's not desirable). As I said, it's a matter of degrees.
> As we discussed above, inbreeding tends to reduce the number of alleles present. While this is good if the allele has desirable effect, such as albinism, it is bad if the allele has a negative effect such as a spinal deformity. There are many potential negative effects and many are well-known in captive reptile populations already: Bloodred Cornsnakes are a line-bred (euphemism for inbred) line of Cornsnakes notorious for producing small hatchings which are difficult to start feeding. Patternless Leopard Geckos are well known for a lack of fertility in males. These are just two well known examples.
> Perhaps more common is simply a general lack of vitality which increases with each successive generation. This is exactly what happened with the Bloodred Cornsnakes mentioned earlier. Early in the development of this beautiful morph, breeders selected stocks based on appearance through successive generations. This had the desired effect of producing more and more attractive snakes by reducing the number of alleles which had a counterproductive effect on appearance and increasing the number which had a positive effect. Sadly, this same concentration of alleles had the opposite effect on the hatchlings' desire to accept rodents as first meals.
> Any conscientious breeder will make every attempt to minimize the negative effects of inbreeding through a variety of methods.
> A method of primary importance is to utilize out-crossing wherever practicable. Out-crossing involves taking your cherished albino specimen and breeding it to two unrelated wild specimens. You'll now have two groups of heterozygous for albino specimens which are only half-related to breed together. This is much better than breeding the albino directly to his sister, as many new alleles will have been introduced into the population using this method.
> Where possible, breeders should attempt to acquire specimens which are unrelated, or close to it, for use as breeders. The use of large groups of unrelated breeders will allow production of many unrelated or partially related offspring by making different pairings each year.
> Accurate records should be maintained with regard to lineage. This will allow breeders of future generations to determine exact genetic relationships when selecting specimens for reproduction.
> In each and every case, the breeder should attempt to weed out specimens exhibiting undesirable effects. Specimens exhibiting deformities, or which lack vitality should be euthanized or placed with individuals as pets - they should never be used in breeding programs.
> Hopefully, this discussion has provided some insight into the subject of inbreeding. We hope that the reader will realize that inbreeding should be viewed as just another valuable tool to be used by knowledgeable breeders, but that its' use must be tempered by good judgment and caution. Without it, none of the beautiful mutations we enjoy in our hobby today would be available.
> http://www.vmsherp.com/LCInbreeding.htm
> The underlying principle of genetics is the simple understanding that any trait, good or bad, is produced by one or more pairs of alleles. One allele is provided by each parent when the egg is fertilized.
> JD-
> 
> “The Power of willful ignorance cannot be overstated”



Attribution?


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## N2TORTS

Not sure what you mean HL ...?
I was just posting point of views from other sources ....not necessarily my own.
The link is provided-


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## HLogic

N2TORTS said:


> Not sure what you mean HL ...?
> I was just posting point of views from other sources ....not necessarily my own.
> The link is provided-



Sorry, didn't notice the link...


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## rkelleh

Thank you everyone for your insight. I never thought how in depth and intriguing this topic can go. When breeding rabbits years ago, it was for food purposes therefore it was not a continued line to know what negative effects it could bring. When I get some time later tonight, I will read that link posted as this discussion has me engaged thoroughly. Will provide insight too on our chameleons that we have. Much appreciated. I do feel a bit better knowing that my babies might or probably are the same gender so I would not have to worry. I guess only time will tell that one.


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