# Let's discuss tortoise evolution



## Yvonne G (May 13, 2022)

We're always saying that tortoises evolved living, eating, acting a certain way and we need to try to provide that same way for them. But what about evolution? Who's to say our current day tortoises, especially the captive bred ones, aren't evolving. Maybe we don't need to be so strict in adhering to their old ways of living.


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## LJL1982 (May 13, 2022)

Yvonne G said:


> We're always saying that tortoises evolved living, eating, acting a certain way and we need to try to provide that same way for them. But what about evolution? Who's to say our current day tortoises, especially the captive bred ones, aren't evolving. Maybe we don't need to be so strict in adhering to their old ways of living.


I swear my Tortoise is so dull sometimes I think he might be devolving


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## TheLastGreen (May 13, 2022)

Yvonne G said:


> We're always saying that tortoises evolved living, eating, acting a certain way and we need to try to provide that same way for them. But what about evolution? Who's to say our current day tortoises, especially the captive bred ones, aren't evolving. Maybe we don't need to be so strict in adhering to their old ways of living.


I agree. When you say evolution, immediately you think about genotypes, being passed on, shaped by nature as some pass due to their environments and others live, passing their life saving gene on. But in human captivity, we save them, even sometimes preserving a gene that could have caused their death in some instances, so the opposite of nature. We try to mimick their environment, but we've realised sometimes they do better outside of the sporadic and sometimes random circumstances they find themselves in. Sometimes people say "But in nature..." and then I could flip. Yes in nature they survive, but in captivity, we try to let them thrive, trying to give conditions they would sometimes rarely experience in nature. Think about it, in a clutch of almost any wild tort eggs, most don't make it to adulthood, in captivity however, most of them do, and reach adulthood with proper care. So I agree with Yvonne again. Eventually torts can and will change due to artificial selection within species (be it accidental or not). So what they could need could change, but as evolution works it is slow, and it could be a while before their needs could change, but it could happen, but their is a chance it may stay on the current course.
Also speaking about evolution, it's weird to think this flat lizard that lived in the swampy, but now desert, karroo eventually became all the tort species we now today (It's debated that it could possibly not be the ancestor of all torts)


(Eunotosaurus africanus)
But that's what I would say, @Markw84 would be the most qualified to answer that question


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## TaylorTortoise (May 13, 2022)

poop


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## jaizei (May 13, 2022)

Yvonne G said:


> We're always saying that tortoises evolved living, eating, acting a certain way and we need to try to provide that same way for them. But what about evolution? Who's to say our current day tortoises, especially the captive bred ones, aren't evolving. Maybe we don't need to be so strict in adhering to their old ways of living.




I don't think it needs to be that current tortoises are 'evolving' as it is that the basic needs of many/most tortoises are largely the same. Matching or trying to recreate native habitats/foods may only be 'required' with some wild caught animals that have 'imprinted' with that life.


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## Tom (May 13, 2022)

Yvonne G said:


> We're always saying that tortoises evolved living, eating, acting a certain way and we need to try to provide that same way for them. But what about evolution? Who's to say our current day tortoises, especially the captive bred ones, aren't evolving. Maybe we don't need to be so strict in adhering to their old ways of living.


The kind of evolution you are talking about doesn't not happen in the space of a human lifetime. Not even close. I'm reminded of one obvious example of rapid "evolution" due to human activity. Here in the southwest it has been common for 200+ years to kill rattlesnakes on sight. People hear the rattle, find the snake, and shoot it or chop its head of with a shovel. The end result of that is that some rattle snakes don't rattle anymore. Seen it myself many times.

Your argument also goes back to what I always try to get across when there are forum discussions about what is the correct care for a given species. My assertion is that: Learning about their lives in the wild is great, but no matter how much we study it, much of it is a mystery. Case in point being "the lost years" from hatching to large juveniles size. Very little is known about where they go or what they do during that time. They remain hidden from view. Basing our care for a given species on the popular assumptions of their lives in the wild resulted in baby sulcatas being raised on rabbit pellets with no water bowl under a heat lamp. It was just yesterday or the day before that yet another new member incorrectly referred to a sulcata as a desert species. This dry routine of housing this species was based on incorrect assumptions of how they live in the wild in an effort to cater to their "old ways of living" that you mentioned.

What I try to propose is that yes, we should consider how we think they live in the wild and whatever facts we do have about that, but much more weight should be given to care methods that actually produce positive results in real life right in our own enclosures in our own homes every day. We can see first hand, over and over again, what happens when baby sulcatas have the dry routine compared to the monsoon routine, yet some people will still argue that how I house them is somehow unnatural. The opposite is true, but most people just don't understand these facts because of the rampant misinformation that is out in the world.


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## TammyJ (May 13, 2022)

Yvonne G said:


> We're always saying that tortoises evolved living, eating, acting a certain way and we need to try to provide that same way for them. But what about evolution? Who's to say our current day tortoises, especially the captive bred ones, aren't evolving. Maybe we don't need to be so strict in adhering to their old ways of living.


Of course our captive bred tortoises are evolving, just like we humans are, and all other animals . It just takes so darn LONG. Anyway, what with the destruction of natural habitats of animals all over this planet, it's a good and important thing that we are learning more about each captive species' particular needs in order to thrive, regardless of where we think they were before in nature or how we think they lived.


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## SasquatchTortoise (May 14, 2022)

Slightly off topic- it sounds like you are talking about ‘living fossils’- plants and animals that haven’t evolved in a long time. Crocodiles are one of the most common ’examples’. In reality, however most animals are changing all the time, if not on the outside, then on the inside.
Look up Planocraniidae- extinct European crocodiles that could gallop like a horse. Compare it to a modern crocodile. Obviously similar in appearance, but very different in behavior.


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## TammyJ (May 14, 2022)

SasquatchTortoise said:


> Slightly off topic- it sounds like you are talking about ‘living fossils’- plants and animals that haven’t evolved in a long time. Crocodiles are one of the most common ’examples’. In reality, however most animals are changing all the time, if not on the outside, then on the inside.
> Look up Planocraniidae- extinct European crocodiles that could gallop like a horse. Compare it to a modern crocodile. Obviously similar in appearance, but very different in behavior.


Our modern day crocs, well, they can "gallop" too when they are ready. It seems to me, and I am just an interested dummy here, that reptiles evolve much slower than mammals? So they still look and behave very similar to how they looked way way back?


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## SasquatchTortoise (May 14, 2022)

TammyJ said:


> Our modern day crocs, well, they can "gallop" too when they are ready. It seems to me, and I am just an interested dummy here, that reptiles evolve much slower than mammals? So they still look and behave very similar to how they looked way way back?


https://www.livescience.com/7845-mammals-beat-reptiles-battle-evolution.html
you are right. Reptiles evolve slower than other animals, but its not entirely known why.
Here’ another article
https://www.scientificamerican.com/...zards-slow-and-steady-evolution-won-the-race/
most animals quickly evolve and then slow evolution for a while, but reptiles are more steady.

I guess what I should have said is that the term ‘living fossils’ is only partly true.


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## Cathie G (May 14, 2022)

Well... I think animals have to evolve constantly in order to survive mother nature's whims anyway but if in our care not so much. Every time I read about life expectancy it always goes up in captivity. Even though we don't know everything, we do a better job evidently.


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## Tom (May 14, 2022)

Cathie G said:


> Every time I read about life expectancy it always goes up in captivity. Even though we don't know everything, we do a better job evidently.


This goes back to the fact that life in the wild is extremely taxing and difficult. One wrong move and you are dead. It is cruel, harsh, and totally unforgiving. Even if you don't make one wrong move you might still die due to weather extremes, drought, disease, etc...

Captive life, on the other hand, when done even just satisfactorily, avoids almost all of the torture hardship and strife of wild living. No diseases, no dehydration, no famine, no predation, no temperature extremes or wild weather to deal with. Most species live about twice as long in captivity as they would in the wild, but that is just the survivors. If you count the number of babies that don't even make it to the juvenile stage, it would skew that number far more. In some tortoise species, only one baby will survive to adulthood out of every 300-1000 that hatch. In most cases, captive hatched tortoises have a 90% or better survival rate. Sulcata and desert tortoise babies might be lower than that because so many people mistakenly think they need dry desiccating conditions, but they would be the exceptions.


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## TammyJ (May 15, 2022)

Tom said:


> This goes back to the fact that life in the wild is extremely taxing and difficult. One wrong move and you are dead. It is cruel, harsh, and totally unforgiving. Even if you don't make one wrong move you might still die due to weather extremes, drought, disease, etc...
> 
> Captive life, on the other hand, when done even just satisfactorily, avoids almost all of the torture hardship and strife of wild living. No diseases, no dehydration, no famine, no predation, no temperature extremes or wild weather to deal with. Most species live about twice as long in captivity as they would in the wild, but that is just the survivors. If you count the number of babies that don't even make it to the juvenile stage, it would skew that number far more. In some tortoise species, only one baby will survive to adulthood out of every 300-1000 that hatch. In most cases, captive hatched tortoises have a 90% or better survival rate. Sulcata and desert tortoise babies might be lower than that because so many people mistakenly think they need dry desiccating conditions, but they would be the exceptions.


So maybe since they thrive and live longer in "correct" captivity, they won't evolve at all because there is no challenge. Or it would slow right down.


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## Tom (May 15, 2022)

TammyJ said:


> So maybe since they thrive and live longer in "correct" captivity, they won't evolve at all because there is no challenge. Or it would slow right down.


Hmmm... I don't know the answer to that. A person could argue it either way. What I CAN see is that some species readily adapt to captive housing, while others just don't. Sulcatas, leopards, Burmese stars, being examples of the former, and impressa, Chersina, and kinixsys, being examples of the latter that are much more difficult.


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## Cathie G (May 15, 2022)

Tom said:


> This goes back to the fact that life in the wild is extremely taxing and difficult. One wrong move and you are dead. It is cruel, harsh, and totally unforgiving. Even if you don't make one wrong move you might still die due to weather extremes, drought, disease, etc...
> 
> Captive life, on the other hand, when done even just satisfactorily, avoids almost all of the torture hardship and strife of wild living. No diseases, no dehydration, no famine, no predation, no temperature extremes or wild weather to deal with. Most species live about twice as long in captivity as they would in the wild, but that is just the survivors. If you count the number of babies that don't even make it to the juvenile stage, it would skew that number far more. In some tortoise species, only one baby will survive to adulthood out of every 300-1000 that hatch. In most cases, captive hatched tortoises have a 90% or better survival rate. Sulcata and desert tortoise babies might be lower than that because so many people mistakenly think they need dry desiccating conditions, but they would be the exceptions.


Yes


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## Sam & Ella (May 15, 2022)

Yvonne G said:


> We're always saying that tortoises evolved living, eating, acting a certain way and we need to try to provide that same way for them. But what about evolution? Who's to say our current day tortoises, especially the captive bred ones, aren't evolving. Maybe we don't need to be so strict in adhering to their old ways of living.


Twenty-four years ago, my hatchling redfoots seemed as stupid as rocks with legs. Still seem that way. Twenty-two years ago, my hatchling brother and sister pancakes seemed pretty clever. Now their grandkids can read The Tortoise and the Hare, but I have to log in online for them.


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## MenagerieGrl (May 16, 2022)

TaylorTortoise said:


> poop


Oh, hey . . I see that it is your Birthday, YAY!  Happy Birthday @TaylorTortoise


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## TammyJ (May 16, 2022)

Yes, Happy Birthday!


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## TammyJ (May 16, 2022)

TammyJ said:


> Yes, Happy Birthday!


But why did TaylorTortoise say "poop" to this thread??? Private joke??? I am not in the loop here.


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## TaylorTortoise (May 16, 2022)

Thank you!!!!! Ladies )


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## Cathie G (May 16, 2022)

Just a theory, maybe keep them as close as we can to their natural habitat so we don't cause too much evolution because I do think we can. With Sapphire he's never going to be released back into the wild. He's my protected pet.


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## Cathie G (May 16, 2022)

TaylorTortoise said:


> poop


That's how I feel about another whole year but glad I made it  happy birthday


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## Tortoise Nana (May 16, 2022)

TheLastGreen said:


> I agree. When you say evolution, immediately you think about genotypes, being passed on, shaped by nature as some pass due to their environments and others live, passing their life saving gene on. But in human captivity, we save them, even sometimes preserving a gene that could have caused their death in some instances, so the opposite of nature. We try to mimick their environment, but we've realised sometimes they do better outside of the sporadic and sometimes random circumstances they find themselves in. Sometimes people say "But in nature..." and then I could flip. Yes in nature they survive, but in captivity, we try to let them thrive, trying to give conditions they would sometimes rarely experience in nature. Think about it, in a clutch of almost any wild tort eggs, most don't make it to adulthood, in captivity however, most of them do, and reach adulthood with proper care. So I agree with Yvonne again. Eventually torts can and will change due to artificial selection within species (be it accidental or not). So what they could need could change, but as evolution works it is slow, and it could be a while before their needs could change, but it could happen, but their is a chance it may stay on the current course.
> Also speaking about evolution, it's weird to think this flat lizard that lived in the swampy, but now desert, karroo eventually became all the tort species we now today (It's debated that it could possibly not be the ancestor of all torts)
> View attachment 344695
> 
> ...


Your evolutional prospects


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## Tortoise Nana (May 16, 2022)

Tortoise Nana said:


> Your evolutional prospects on these ancient reptiles is really interesting and spot on. Being a new tort nana, I’m trying to learn as much about my new grandchildren as possible. Thank you.


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## TammyJ (May 17, 2022)

Tom said:


> Hmmm... I don't know the answer to that. A person could argue it either way. What I CAN see is that some species readily adapt to captive housing, while others just don't. Sulcatas, leopards, Burmese stars, being examples of the former, and impressa, Chersina, and kinixsys, being examples of the latter that are much more difficult.


Why do you think that Impressa, Chersina and Kinixsys tortoises are so much harder to raise or keep in captivity? Is it because of their diet in "the Wild"? And does this fact of their difficulty to keep, apply to even captive bred ones?


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## Tom (May 17, 2022)

TammyJ said:


> Why do you think that Impressa, Chersina and Kinixsys tortoises are so much harder to raise or keep in captivity? Is it because of their diet in "the Wild"? And does this fact of their difficulty to keep, apply to even captive bred ones?


I don't know the answer. I think if anyone knew why it was this way, then we would fix the problem and it wouldn't be this way. Diet may play a part, but we know at least a little bit about what these species eat in the wild.

There is s similar parallel with tropical fish. Some of them seem to handle a wide variety of water parameters, temperatures, foods, tank sizes, etc... and thrive any which way they are housed. Others just don't seem to be able to survive even with seemingly optimal conditions.


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## SasquatchTortoise (May 17, 2022)

Tom said:


> I don't know the answer. I think if anyone knew why it was this way, then we would fix the problem and it wouldn't be this way. Diet may play a part, but we know at least a little bit about what these species eat in the wild.
> 
> There is s similar parallel with tropical fish. Some of them seem to handle a wide variety of water parameters, temperatures, foods, tank sizes, etc... and thrive any which way they are housed. Others just don't seem to be able to survive even with seemingly optimal conditions.


Reminds me of the classic example- the betta fish. Logically, it would seem like they would like an open, spacious tank with clean, filtered water. In the wild, however, they prefer to live in low oxygen, murky shallow pools


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## TammyJ (May 17, 2022)

SasquatchTortoise said:


> Reminds me of the classic example- the betta fish. Logically, it would seem like they would like an open, spacious tank with clean, filtered water. In the wild, however, they prefer to live in low oxygen, murky shallow pools


Is that where they are most likely to be found? Low oxygen murky shallow pools? Well. They will have a Betta life in nice aquariums.


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## Cathie G (May 17, 2022)

TammyJ said:


> Is that where they are most likely to be found? Low oxygen murky shallow pools? Well. They will have a Betta life in nice aquariums.


Oh no!!! I'm sooo getting tempted to do another Betta.


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## SasquatchTortoise (May 17, 2022)

Cathie G said:


> Oh no!!! I'm sooo getting tempted to do another Betta.


Bettas are really fun fish to keep, Mostly because of their personality, but also because of the unique setups you can keep them in. Many people make 'biotopes'- aquariums designed to mimic nature as much as possible
Here's an example for a betta:


They love Ripariums and paladariums as well (with lid):



Blackwater is great as well. Tannins (acid/pigment) from leaves and wood can dye water brown and make many tropical fish feel at home.




Sorry I went on a rant there...


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## Tom (May 17, 2022)

TammyJ said:


> They will have a Betta life in nice aquariums.


What you did there... I see it. Well done. Like a ruined steak.


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## TammyJ (May 18, 2022)

Tom said:


> What you did there... I see it. Well done. Like a ruined steak.


I know. But we Betta get back to Evolution here.


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## Cathie G (May 18, 2022)

SasquatchTortoise said:


> Bettas are really fun fish to keep, Mostly because of their personality, but also because of the unique setups you can keep them in. Many people make 'biotopes'- aquariums designed to mimic nature as much as possible
> Here's an example for a betta:
> View attachment 344869
> 
> ...


It's been all I can do to talk myself out of doing another one  I'm getting so much better in health that it's getting harder and harder. I love Bettas. They are fascinating to me. and have been since the first time I saw one. Part of that is also the tank and how they use it.


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## Maro2Bear (May 18, 2022)

I don’t think this guy has changed much over time. Spotted during a recent kayak adventure here in Maryland.


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## Yvonne G (May 18, 2022)

Maro2Bear said:


> I don’t think this guy has changed much over time. Spotted during a recent kayak adventure here in Maryland.
> 
> View attachment 344887


No need to. He's perfect in his niche


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## TammyJ (May 18, 2022)

Maro2Bear said:


> I don’t think this guy has changed much over time. Spotted during a recent kayak adventure here in Maryland.
> 
> View attachment 344887


I would call him "Ozymandias". Like the poem. Awesome!!!


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## Cathie G (May 18, 2022)

Cathie G said:


> Just a theory, maybe keep them as close as we can to their natural habitat so we don't cause too much evolution because I do think we can. With Sapphire he's never going to be released back into the wild. He's my protected pet.


Or let evolution go on by keeping them close to us. Since more of them survive with "habitat" or a home just like we need to have. there's another side to evolution and that's extinction which can be caused by loss of habitat. Last time I heard there's not much left for them.


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## Turtulas-Len (May 18, 2022)

I believe diet has an effect on evolutionary changes on every living thing. No one has mentioned what most of us are feeding the old world tortoises that they didn't have access to until a few hundred years ago. Cactus. Cactus is a new world plant and until man introduced cactus throughout the world sulcatas or any other old world tortoise never tasted it. It has proven to be one of the best dietary items offered to help captive kept tortoises healthy. Wondering if it's going to change them in the future if even slightly.


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## Cathie G (May 18, 2022)

Turtulas-Len said:


> I believe diet has an effect on evolutionary changes on every living thing. No one has mentioned what most of us are feeding the old world tortoises that they didn't have access to until a few hundred years ago. Cactus. Cactus is a new world plant and until man introduced cactus throughout the world sulcatas or any other old world tortoise never tasted it. It has proven to be one of the best dietary items offered to help captive kept tortoises healthy. Wondering if it's going to change them in the future if even slightly.


Yep. Good diet and a hide as good as we can.. It's got to be better with better healthier babies. Evolution on the upside


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## Tom (May 19, 2022)

Turtulas-Len said:


> I believe diet has an effect on evolutionary changes on every living thing. No one has mentioned what most of us are feeding the old world tortoises that they didn't have access to until a few hundred years ago. Cactus. Cactus is a new world plant and until man introduced cactus throughout the world sulcatas or any other old world tortoise never tasted it. It has proven to be one of the best dietary items offered to help captive kept tortoises healthy. Wondering if it's going to change them in the future if even slightly.


Agreed, but I think this applies to almost every food that we use for our tortoises. Few people grow any foods that would occur where their tortoises come from. Maybe Bermuda grass for African species, or goat head weed for leopards? I take great pleasure in feeding my tortoises something they might get in the wild, including species that eat opuntia.


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## Cathie G (May 19, 2022)

I just keep on trying a different plant or two and what seems like his favorite mixed up. Variety is the spice of life. He loves a chunk of zucchini but not so much a chunk of English cucumber. He'll eat zucchini with anything I put on it  pretty funny huh. Lil torty has an achelies heel for stuff


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