# Question for the wise ones about scute growth lines....



## galvinkaos (Mar 12, 2009)

Okay I am confused. (Not a new occurrence ) I have seen posts about growth on carpaces being white lines between the scutes and then I posted pics of the kids (dark growth lines) and was told the new growth on a desert tortoise is usually lighter.







Then I saw these pics of a Sulcata and the growth lines are dark. (thanks Sulcatadud3 for loan of the pics)



SulcataDud3 said:


>



So the question is...What torts usually have light growth and what torts have dark growth? Could dark growth in a usually light or opposite mean something health wise?

Dawna

Dawna


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## Kristina (Mar 12, 2009)

My Sulcatas have white growth lines 

Sorry, that is all I can contribute, but maybe it differs from tort to tort? Even within a species.

Kristina


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## Candy (Mar 12, 2009)

Hi Dawna, I have no idea I just wanted to say "what beautiful tortoises those are". I'm sure Danny will read this one and get back to you on the growth. Candy


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## galvinkaos (Mar 12, 2009)

Thank you, Kyrah. I appreciate the response. All answers are welcome.

Thanks Candy. I think they are the best looking kids around .

Dawna


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## nrfitchett4 (Mar 13, 2009)

shelly's is light colored:


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## egyptiandan (Mar 13, 2009)

Where to start  The "white" stuff between scutes when growth is occurring is usually a fine line and is a covering to the new scute material. It peels off usually very quickly. The coloring of new scute material can vary quite a bit, depending on health or enviromental conditions. So warm temperatures will get light colored growth and cooler temperatures will get dark growth.
There are also tortoises that start off light and than get dark growth as they age, Chaco tortoises being one.
What I'm seeing on your new desert tortoises is that they were probably kept on the cool side and the new growth got darker in response. I also don't see any really new growth that would be white.

Danny


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## galvinkaos (Mar 13, 2009)

Danny, they haven't been cool lately. They have been at 70-75 at the cool end and 90-95+ at the hot end. They like the hot end best and only seem to pass through the cooler end and not hang out there. These are the average temps ever since I got them, which was Jan. Could cool temps before I got them cause the growth now to be dark? 

Dawna


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## egyptiandan (Mar 13, 2009)

Yes it would have been cooler temperatures before you got them that did that.  Hard to say whether the new growth will continue to be dark or get lighter.

Danny


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## Madkins007 (Mar 13, 2009)

For what it is worth, with my Red-foots and their almost black shells- new growth is white if it is added quickly, and dark if it develops slowly. This acts as my warning that I am probably overfeeding.


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## galvinkaos (Mar 13, 2009)

Thanks again for the answers Danny. 
Madkins007, that is an interesting warning gauge.  I can usually tell when my pants won't button. 

Thanks for the info I am a sponge when it comes to the torts. 

Dawna


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## tortoisenerd (Mar 13, 2009)

I have a question about shell growth now that the original question has been answered: How can you tell if a russian hatchling is growing too fast? He has a pretty big growth gap, and is a little high on the Jackson ratio chart for his length. I attribute this to the fact that he's growing out and up before he's growing longer (his plasteron has some bulges on the sides). He has a healthy appetite and I've been feeding him about as much as he wants. He'll walk away when he's full, and he was scrawny when I got him. Put out a small handful of greens in the morning and most will be gone by the time I get home; I'll give him a little snack if he's still awake in the evening if he's being active. He gets lots of exercise for a captive tort as his enclosure if 8 sq ft and we take him out to run around the living room if it's warm and doesn't stress him out.

Measured in at 60mm and 60 g last week (started at 50 mm and 34 g in mid December). Here's a picture I took today when he was climbing on his log--he's a little adventurous tort and loves to climb! Opinion? Should I start to cut back on food a little or just let him do his thing?






Wow that picture turned out much better than any I've taken of the little guy in awhile! You can see how overly conservative the enclosure height is too since he's far from reaching the top.


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## stells (Mar 14, 2009)

If he is growing smooth i can't see a problem... the jackson ratio also doesn't work for Horsfields..


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## egyptiandan (Mar 14, 2009)

Kate the McIntyre graph starts at 90mm and at that size 180g is average. That is what you should be shooting for. I would say no diet in his future. 

Danny


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## DuttonWebb (Mar 14, 2009)

This is Wall-e. 7-8 months


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## galvinkaos (Mar 14, 2009)

Wall-e is a handsome, sleepy tort.

Dawna


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## DuttonWebb (Mar 14, 2009)

galvinkaos said:


> Wall-e is a handsome, sleepy tort.
> 
> Dawna



Yeah I was suprised the camera flash didnt wake him. So his coloring is good and scutes normal for an 8 m/year old


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## tortoisenerd (Mar 14, 2009)

Kelly: Here is a thread about the Jackson Ratio for hatchling Testudo torts (although it is more geared towards Hermanns): http://tortoiseforum.org/thread-799.html?highlight=Jackson+Ratio As far as I know a russian tort is testudo horsfieldii. The only thing I can see of why to not use that chart is that he's now just over 6 months old. Or, am I wrong? I'll repeat the graph below:






Danny: Thanks for the info. I hadn't heard of the McIntyre ratio before. Is the graph I found correct? Glad he doesn't have to go on a diet!


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## egyptiandan (Mar 14, 2009)

Thats it Kate.  

Like Kelly said the Jackson ratio is just for Testudo hermanni and Testudo graeca, those are the only 2 tortoises covered by it. It's different for Russians as they are almost as wide as they are long. So they weight more than a similar sized Hermanns or Greek tortoise.

Danny


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## tortoisenerd (Mar 14, 2009)

Ah ha. Thanks for clearing that up! That explains why the chart said he was "fat" when he doesn't look like it at all.

Do his growth lines look normal?


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## egyptiandan (Mar 14, 2009)

He looks perfectly normal to me Kate. 

Danny


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## DuttonWebb (Mar 14, 2009)

what about my tort? hes on page one at the bottom.


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## Yvonne G (Mar 14, 2009)

DuttonWebb said:


> what about my tort? hes on page one at the bottom.



So far, Dutton, your little guy looks just fine. You don't really start to see any pyramiding or effects until they grow more. Right now yours is still just a little baby, and a very cute one at that!

Yvonne


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## tortoisenerd (Mar 15, 2009)

Thanks again Danny! 

We had a near death experience today with Trevor. He was on his back in his water dish. Luckily it couldn't have been more than 15 minutes, and he seems fine now. We was breathing really heavy afterward though, and is now hiding. My fiance says he's probably embarrassed, lol. It looks like he was walking on the rim of the dish next to the wall, where there isn't enough width for him. I moved the dish over enough so that there is clearance now for him to walk that way if he chooses. I had originally thought he wouldn't go that way since it isn't wide enough, but he seems to like the straight line path to his destination.

He was walking on the left of this photo against the wall (seen him do it before successfully; this time not so much):


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## galvinkaos (Mar 15, 2009)

Glad to hear Trevor is ok. Always scary when something happens to them.

Dawna


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