# Starvation/malnutrition effects in tortoises?



## Ketta

So its been almost 2 weeks since Keto have been with me and his improvements have been amazing.. incluiding that his colour is brighter everyday around his head and legs especially. So i remembered that when i got him his head colour some parts were either very pale or gray in colour and now he is even getting new spots around his chin.
So i remembered that my mom's friend have 2 tortoises they are either Yellow foot or Red Foot tortoises not sure as i hadnt been for a few months in their house. The last time i saw them they had their head with gray colouring and and very pale they get ONLY lettuce as food :/ Keto used to be in a similar situation before he was mine, where his only food was lettuce and dry dog food once a week.
So I begun wondering what are the signs of malnutrition in tortoises. I might be taking care of these 2 for 6 months as the owners will travel from November 2019 to May 2020. I trully believe that these two are suffering from malnutrition.


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## dmmj

Poor diet can affect coloring. MBD, slow or little growth, poor bone development. Lots of things really.


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## Ketta

What's MBD? I knew Keto's poor colour was result of a poor diet.


dmmj said:


> Poor diet can affect coloring. MBD, slow or little growth, poor bone development. Lots of things really.


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## dmmj

Ketta said:


> What's MBD? I knew Keto's poor colour was result of a poor diet.


Metabolic Bone Disorder. It happens when a turtle or tortoise does not get enough calcium & sun sunshine & the  develops weak bones & a lumpy mis-shapen shell


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## Ketta

dmmj said:


> Metabolic Bone Disorder. It happens when a turtle or tortoise does not get enough calcium & sun sunshine & the  develops weak bones & a lumpy mis-shapen shell


Oh ok Wow!


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## Toddrickfl1

Ketta said:


> What's MBD? I knew Keto's poor colour was result of a poor diet.


The poor color was probably from being kept too dry. Their color shows a lot better when they're hydrated.


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## Ketta

Is it bad that Keto just had dirrhea? I read it means he have been overfed? So how much should I give him? He pooped normal today then he did diarrhea...


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## Ketta

Toddrickfl1 said:


> The poor color was probably from being kept too dry. Their color shows a lot better when they're hydrated.


Oh soo diet it's not what's important? It's the humidity what matters...


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## Toddrickfl1

Ketta said:


> Oh soo diet it's not what's important? It's the humidity what matters...


They're both equally important. A good wide diet and proper humidity you should be fine. It should actually be easier for you than most keeping Redfoots because you live in the Redfoots natural range.


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## Ketta

Toddrickfl1 said:


> They're both equally important. A good wide diet and proper humidity you should be fine. It should actually be easier for you than most keeping Redfoots because you live in the Redfoots natural range.


What about the diarrhea he just had?


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## Toddrickfl1

Ketta said:


> What about the diarrhea he just had?


I would get his diet right and give him a few weeks to settle in. I think if you do that he'll be fine. If it persists after a few weeks then it might be time to get it checked out.


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## Ketta

Toddrickfl1 said:


> I would get his diet right and give him a few weeks to settle in. I think if you do that he'll be fine. If it persists after a few weeks then it might be time to get it checked out.


I have been giving him papaya, tomatoes, arugula, lettuce, basil, mango, hibiscus leaves, raddicchio, banana.. yesterday night he ate some cooked chicken... egg yolk and Guava.
Not all at the same time yesterday night I gave him the chicken pieces with some radicchio and lettuce. This morning it was papaya with radicchio. He doesn't like hibiscus flower... only the leaves.


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## Ketta

Thing is the quantity I read that he should eat an amount about the size of his head but I give him that and he stares at me like I want more he eats 3x the size of his head..


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## Toddrickfl1

Ketta said:


> Thing is the quantity I read that he should eat an amount about the size of his head but I give him that and he stares at me like I want more he eats 3x the size of his head..


I've heard a good rule of thumb is imagine if you flipped your tort upside down and used him as a bowl. Whatever would fit in that bowl should be about how much you offer daily.


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## Ketta

Toddrickfl1 said:


> I've heard a good rule of thumb is imagine if you flipped your tort upside down and used him as a bowl. Whatever would fit in that bowl should be about how much you offer daily.


Wow that would be a lot XD for his size! And also should it be once a day? Or several times a day? I have been feeding him 2-3 times a day. So maybe I'm over doing it..


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## Toddrickfl1

Ketta said:


> Wow that would be a lot XD for his size! And also should it be once a day? Or several times a day? I have been feeding him 2-3 times a day. So maybe I'm over doing it..


I feed once a day in the mornings but I make sure there's always some for him to nibble thru out the day if he chooses.


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## Ketta

What size is your Tortoise? Mine is about 5" long..


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## Toddrickfl1

Ketta said:


> What size is your Tortoise? Mine is about 5" long..


These are my torts threads. Murphy is a little over 6" and Marge is about 3".

https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/murphys-mugshots.167130/

https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/tortstork-sent-a-xmas-miracle.172088/


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## Ketta

Wow he is way younger than Keto wow. Keto is 2 years old but because the family that had him before had him on a poor diet and lack of sunshine his growth wasn't right. I hope he will catch up with his size and weight soon.


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## Ketta

Yup like in Here! The gray parts are still getting their colour back.




Toddrickfl1 said:


> The poor color was probably from being kept too dry. Their color shows a lot better when they're hydrated.


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## Yvonne G

Ketta said:


> Thing is the quantity I read that he should eat an amount about the size of his head but I give him that and he stares at me like I want more he eats 3x the size of his head..


That's not a good rule of thumb. Put out a pile of food the same size as your tortoise. If he eats it gone you didn't give him enough. If, at the end of the day there's still a lot left, you gave him too much.


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## Ketta

Yvonne G said:


> That's not a good rule of thumb. Put out a pile of food the same size as your tortoise. If he eats it gone you didn't give him enough. If, at the end of the day there's still a lot left, you gave him too much.


Ok that one is better. Most of the days he eats it all.. that he actually "ask" for more by standing on the plate.. Lol also he is picky how do I solve that. ? For example I put him papaya pieces and arugula between those two he eats the arugula. He devours it. But if I put papaya and carrot pieces he goes for the papaya. . for example between raddicchio and lettuce he goes for radicchio and then the lettuce. He doesn't like hibiscus flower but he did ate the hibiscus leaves. Because of his pickiness he sometimes leaves what he doesn't like. I tried what I read of giving him all mixed and he just smelled it tried to eat what he liked and because he couldn't he simply stopped eating. Then a few minutes later... He returns obviously hungry tries a bite or two but didn't like the taste  so he goes to his hiding spot hungry and I feel bad so I end up granting his wishes by serving only something he does like! I feel like a slave...


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## TammyJ

Ketta said:


> Ok that one is better. Most of the days he eats it all.. that he actually "ask" for more by standing on the plate.. Lol also he is picky how do I solve that. ? For example I put him papaya pieces and arugula between those two he eats the arugula. He devours it. But if I put papaya and carrot pieces he goes for the papaya. . for example between raddicchio and lettuce he goes for radicchio and then the lettuce. He doesn't like hibiscus flower but he did ate the hibiscus leaves. Because of his pickiness he sometimes leaves what he doesn't like. I tried what I read of giving him all mixed and he just smelled it tried to eat what he liked and because he couldn't he simply stopped eating. Then a few minutes later... He returns obviously hungry tries a bite or two but didn't like the taste  so he goes to his hiding spot hungry and I feel bad so I end up granting his wishes by serving only something he does like! I feel like a slave...


You will a good, obedient and humble slave if you keep on like this with him. It will be stressful for you. All you have to do is follow the correct redfoot diet sheet and vary his diet every day with a few different items, and give him a big pile every morning and remove any leftovers every evening. I am not an expert, but that is what I do, what I have been told to do and my redfoots are doing great.


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## Ketta

Leek

Chives



TammyJ said:


> You will a good, obedient and humble slave if you keep on like this with him. It will be stressful for you. All you have to do is follow the correct redfoot diet sheet and vary his diet every day with a few different items, and give him a big pile every morning and remove any leftovers every evening. I am not an expert, but that is what I do, what I have been told to do and my redfoots are doing great.


Lol... yeah I feel like an slave already.. do you feed chives and leek to your Tortoises?


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## Ketta

TammyJ said:


> You will a good, obedient and humble slave if you keep on like this with him. It will be stressful for you. All you have to do is follow the correct redfoot diet sheet and vary his diet every day with a few different items, and give him a big pile every morning and remove any leftovers every evening. I am not an expert, but that is what I do, what I have been told to do and my redfoots are doing great.


Yes i try to vary his diet as much as possible for example today he ate cucumber with a basil leave, rocket flowers and papaya.. And after I arrived from uni I gave him an arugula leave.


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## TammyJ

Ketta said:


> Leek
> View attachment 272984
> Chives
> View attachment 272985
> 
> Lol... yeah I feel like an slave already.. do you feed chives and leek to your Tortoises?


No.


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## Ketta

TammyJ said:


> No.


Are they toxic to them? I haven't either but just want to make sure before I feed any of that to him.


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## TammyJ

Ketta said:


> Are they toxic to them? I haven't either but just want to make sure before I feed any of that to him.


I don't know about toxic but I don't think these are recommended foods. These tortoises eat such a varied diet...they don't need chives and leek anyway. These are strong seasonings. Just check out the redfoot diet sheet.


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## Ketta

TammyJ said:


> I don't know about toxic but I don't think these are recommended foods. These tortoises eat such a varied diet...they don't need chives and leek anyway. These are strong seasonings. Just check out the redfoot diet sheet.


They aren't in there.


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## Lyn W

If I remember rightly anything with bulbs shouldn't be fed. 
According to the Tortoise Table onions and chives are classed as *do not feed*, they don't mention leeks but I would err on the side of caution and if in doubt leave it out until you know for sure.
www.thetortoisetable.org.uk is a good guide.


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## Ketta

Lyn W said:


> If I remember rightly anything with bulbs shouldn't be fed.
> According to the Tortoise Table onions and chives are classed as *do not feed*, they don't mention leeks but I would err on the side of caution and if in doubt leave it out until you know for sure.
> www.thetortoisetable.org.uk is a good guide.


Ok good to know...


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## Ketta

I have the tortoise table app now... but there are things there that say to not feed or feed sparingly and in the Red Foot care sheet says it's ok to feed.


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## Cheryl Hills

The tortoise table is very conservative. Red foots can eat a lot of things that other torts can not eat. Go by the care sheet on this forum, it will not steer you wrong.


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## Ketta

Cheryl Hills said:


> The tortoise table is very conservative. Red foots can eat a lot of things that other torts can not eat. Go by the care sheet on this forum, it will not steer you wrong.


Thanks!


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## Randdawgg

Toddrickfl1 said:


> The poor color was probably from being kept too dry. Their color shows a lot better when they're hydrated.


I think getting torts in the sun is underestimated.I have a 6 month african leopard tort and I cant believe how active he is when outside.With shade and water I hope to have him out till late in the fall.Did you guys know that african leopard torts are one of the few species that will swim to find new habitat.


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## C. Nelson

Ketta said:


> I have the tortoise table app now... but there are things there that say to not feed or feed sparingly and in the Red Foot care sheet says it's ok to feed.



Thanks for mentioning the app. I didn't know it existed and I just downloaded it.


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## Ketta

This is one of the tortoises of my mom's friend... s/He is almost 4 years old.
It shares space with other rf tortoise. They are both rf.
They are 100% outdoor tortoises. And both are pyramiding.


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## Ketta

Ketta said:


> This is one of the tortoises of my mom's friend... s/He is almost 4 years old.
> It shares space with other rf tortoise. They are both rf.
> They are 100% outdoor tortoises. And both are pyramiding.


It's a male right?..


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## Toddrickfl1

Ketta said:


> It's a male right?..
> View attachment 273446


Too young I think. Interesting though that you live in their natural range yet they are still Pyramiding being raised outdoors. Do you have any pics of the carapace?


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## Ketta

Toddrickfl1 said:


> Too young I think. Interesting though that you live in their natural range yet they are still Pyramiding being raised outdoors. Do you have any pics of the carapace?


Nope but I'm going back to my mom's friend house this week. Or maybe in the weekend. The one in the picture weights 1.2 kgs.
Couldn't weight the other one. But I will next time I go there. 
Yup probably because where they live is quite cold (14° C) it's a mountain... And they(owners) don't pay attention if its cold or not... maybe that's why they are pyramiding? 
Keto was beginning to pyramiding when I got him but i stopped it by raising humidity in his enclosure also by keeping him in warmest place of my apartment.
Also diet might be a factor... cause they only get lettuce.


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## Toddrickfl1

Ketta said:


> Nope but I'm going back to my mom's friend house this week. Or maybe in the weekend. The one in the picture weights 1.2 kgs.
> Couldn't weight the other one. But I will next time I go there.
> Yup probably because where they live is quite cold (14° C) it's a mountain... And they(owners) don't pay attention if its cold or not... maybe that's why they are pyramiding?
> Keto was beginning to pyramiding when I got him but i stopped it by raising humidity in his enclosure also by keeping him in warmest place of my apartment.
> Also diet might be a factor... cause they only get lettuce.


Ahh I didn't take elevation into a factor. That makes sense.


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## Ketta

Toddrickfl1 said:


> Ahh I didn't take elevation into a factor. That makes sense.


I lives in a mountain too but here temps are 26°-30° C during the day and 18-20° C at night. 
Compared with the 14°C during the day at my mom's friend house. 
It's much better temps here at my house.


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## TortiMom96

Another thing you can do to help with stress/ dehydration and vitamins is get organic carrot juice (my local publix has it) and do a 1:1 ratio with either spring or well water and give keto a nice good soak every other day for a while. My babies dont really like to eat carrot so i force it with a bath because they do need it.


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## Ketta

TortiMom96 said:


> Another thing you can do to help with stress/ dehydration and vitamins is get organic carrot juice (my local publix has it) and do a 1:1 ratio with either spring or well water and give keto a nice good soak every other day for a while. My babies dont really like to eat carrot so i force it with a bath because they do need it.


Mmm I don't have organic carrot juice because I don't lives in USA...


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