# Iceberg Lettuce



## Tom

What's wrong with iceberg lettuce? I used to feed it once or twice a week when I was underfeeding my growing boys and trying to make them grow slower and not pyramid. It was a very small part of a varied diet. I figured it had water and fiber, but very little nutrition, so it was better, at least in my mind, than totally skipping a day. My thinking was that they'd get a full belly and not feel so hungry, but yet not get a whole lot of growth inducing nutrition.

Believe me, I know better now, but back then the word was all about too much food and protein causing pyramiding.

So, other than having almost no nutritional value, is there anything else wrong with iceberg lettuce?

I've wondered about this for many years as so many people are vehemently opposed to iceberg, but I found it quite useful. I understand that a tortoise wouldn't stay healthy for very long if that's all they ate, but what's wrong with a little mixed in once and a while, just for bulk?


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## chadk

I've fed it to mine a few times when we have too much - usually when someone leaves some with us after a party or something (we don't ever buy it for ourselves even). When I feed it, I sprinkle with TNT, so at least a little nutrition is provided with the water


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## Yvonne G

I have found during my years of adopting out tortoises, that if the word "lettuce" is mentioned AT ALL during the what-to-feed lecture, that the prospective adoptor zones in on that word and the next thing you know they end up feeding quite a lot of iceburg lettuce because its easy and they're lazy. So I NEVER tell people they can use lettuce.

I spend about $100 a week on tortoise food because I have a lot of tortoises to feed. Because I buy so much foods, I almost always buy the big bag of iceburg lettuce that has carrots and red cabbage in it. I use it like you, Tom, as a filler. But I NEVER feed ONLY iceburg lettuce. My tortoises get quite a nice variety of foods....including the occasional iceburg lettuce. 


SH-H-H-H-H-!!! Don't tell anyone!


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## dmmj

the main reason I have never used iceberg is because I was once told if a turtle was to get it daily nutrin. value they would have to eat like 25 pounds of it.


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## kimber_lee_314

I also use it when I have excessive amounts of it, and I also sprinkle TNT on it!  The torts love it - I have no idea why ... it's mostly water. I agree that you have to be careful when you tell others that they eat lettuce. Others can easily get the wrong idea.


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## jblayza

Alot of pet shops that sell tortoises say that they are easy to care for and say "they just eat lettuce". I think when some hear that they figure that iceberg is cheap and they usually have it handy anyway so that is what they use until told otherwise. That is a good idea to use it as a filler though, as long as they have enough variety to get all the proper nutrition i don't see how it could hurt.


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## chadk

Sprinkle with TNT - good stuff


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## ChiKat

Hmm I might have to give some to Nelson occasionally as a "treat" to keep him hydrated. I always avoided it because of the lack of nutrients, like you said. But I like the idea of sprinkling it with TNT too!
Now the problem is that I never buy the stuff


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## kimber_lee_314

ChiKat said:


> Hmm I might have to give some to Nelson occasionally as a "treat" to keep him hydrated. I always avoided it because of the lack of nutrients, like you said. But I like the idea of sprinkling it with TNT too!
> Now the problem is that I never buy the stuff



Ha ha! That's true! I rarely have it too. My sweet elderly neighbor always brings it over for my "turtles" when she has extra. I can barely even eat romaine these day.


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## Madkins007

Iceberg is really not much worse than Romaine, Butter (aka Bibb or Boston), or most of the lettuces in Spring Mix. The Ca: P is a bit under 1:1, but only by a little- and easily balanced by other 'better' foods or a tiny pinch of calcium. It also benefits from a pinch of fiber as well.

I have a THEORY that we may be feeding our torts a diet higher in energy and nutrients than they would receive in the wild. Using lower nutrient foods, like the head lettuces, as a bulk filler- just like others have said here- makes sense to me. Fills the intestines with bulk without adding a lot of calories, etc. It seems more natural than fasting days, etc. Remember- this is a THEORY, nothing more at the moment.

It is a lot of water (if the lettuce is fresh or well-soaked before use), and that is also a good thing since many captive torts are at least a little dehydrated. It is also rich in nitrogen, which is useful but does not get a lot of attention.

I think this a 'pendulum problem'. At one time, many keepers fed their torts on mostly Iceberg. At other times it was mostly cabbage, etc. Whenever you feed a tortoise 'mostly' certain foods, problems will come up and the hobby gets very 'anti-' that food- almost tossing the baby out with the bathwater. Instead of saying 'OK in moderation', it is often thought to be easier or safer to say 'do not use'.


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## GBtortoises

"I have a THEORY that we may be feeding our torts a diet higher in energy and nutrients than they would receive in the wild. Using lower nutrient foods, like the head lettuces, as a bulk filler- just like others have said here- makes sense to me. Fills the intestines with bulk without adding a lot of calories, etc. It seems more natural than fasting days, etc. Remember- this is a THEORY, nothing more at the moment."

I agree with your theory. Much of the newer field research literature confirms your theory by stating that most tortoise species survive on diet that is very high in fiber, high in calcium but low in most vitamins. 
A tortoise's digestive system in captivity probably wastes most of the excessive vitamins that are being fed to them. The food that is being fed is much higher in vitamin content and volume and not nearly high enough in fiber content. This not only causes the foods to pass through the tortoises digestive system (the volume) but also does not allow for a correct population of intestinal protozoa to be maintained due to food passing through so quickly that new colonies cannot become established. What would take them weeks to completely digest and expel in the wild takes only a few days, if that in captivity. Their digestive systems are designed to extract energy from very low nutrient foods over a muc longer period of time than is happening when in captivity. 

Their feces should look dark, dark brown (almost black), completely solid and nearly completely dry when expelled. And usually with very little, if any urates. In captivity, when asking what it should be like, most people describe their tortoises feces as dark green to brown, mostly solid but sometimes wet looking and often with lots of urates. 

My "theory" is: I'm not sure about feeding high water content foods but I think most arid and temperate climate tortoise species should definitely have a much higher, dryer fiber content in their diet than they are probably getting. Along with a much lower vitamin content overall. Weed hay (as opposed to grass hay), leaves and dry greens should be a much larger part of their diet.


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## Tom

GBtortoises said:


> "
> My "theory" is: I'm not sure about feeding high water content foods but I think most arid and temperate climate tortoise species should definitely have a much higher, dryer fiber content in their diet than they are probably getting. Along with a much lower vitamin content overall. Weed hay (as opposed to grass hay), leaves and dry greens should be a much larger part of their diet.



This all makes good sense to me. What "dry greens" are you suggesting? The only dry greens I can think of at the moment are the various grass hays.

Its interesting hearing the tree leaves suggested too. I've always fed Mulberry leaves once or twice a week, when they are in season. Years ago, I read that it was good for them, and since they like them so much, I've just continued. Can you suggest some other trees too? I know about grape and hibiscus leaves. What others are good?

Many of my feeding habits have become based on frugality. I can get all the weeds, grass, cactus and Mulberry leaves I want for free and they are all much easier to get than a trip to the store. The grass hay, my staple, is really cheap ($12 for an entire 110 lb. bale) and we have it delivered with all the other animals hay. I have a flake of this available to them at all times. They eat some every day, even when they have lots of other things available.


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## GBtortoises

Roachman-Much of my feeding habits are also based on frugality! Once the snow clears here I feed mine exclusively foods that grow wild here where I live in New York State. That includes, but is not limited to: dandelion, red, white & purple clover, broad & thin leaf plantain, wild chicory, crown vetch, sow thistle and quite honestly, several plants that I do not know the identity of. I pick approximately (2) 55 gallon bags full of weeds every 2 to 3 days. In between feeding days I simply leave the prior feedings in the enclosures. I always scatter the food around, making them forage, rather than sitting in one spot to eat. I have seen all of them (Northern Mediterraneans and Russians) eating the drier, couple day old greens equally as much as the fresh greens. In fact, a couple of my Marginated females seem to eat the dry weeds moreso than the fresh weeds. This observance, along with some modern literature by a few authors who have actually studied and observed them in wild has lead me to the same conclusions as you.

One of them in particular, Wolfgang Wegehaupt, author of "_Natural Keeping and Breeding of Hermann's Tortoises_ takes a very naturalistic approach to keeping Hermann's tortoises in captivity. An almost hands off approach. He advocates a very high fiber, high calcium, no "artificial" vitamin diet. He also picks whole plants (weeds) and hangs them to dry to feed his tortoises. Essentially the same process that it takes to make hay from grass, only with weeds. I have for many years also fed mine dried weeds by a different method than his. When I brushcut (basically rough mowing) my field next to the tortoise enclosures I let it lay for a few days to a week and let it dry. I go along later and gather it all in a large tow behind wagon, dump it on the outside of the tortoise enclosure perimeter and feed it to them as needed.
For leaves mine get fed Poplar (I believe similar to Aspen out west), Maple and Apple tree leaves because that's what grows on my property! I also have Oak leaves available too that I do occasionally use for bedding. I am absolutely certain that there is a vast variety of other edible leaves out there but I use what I have available. 
I live here in the Catskill Moutains of New York State. A very temperate climate area so I don't have grape leaves, Mulberry leaves or some of those other desirable tortoise foods available to me. While it may be hard to imagine, I do have a species of pad cactus that I have planted here, grows well and flowers every summer despite below freezing temperatures and being buried in 3 foot (or more) of snow for 3-4 months out of the year! 
Because I live in farm country, bales of grass hay are very common and for the most part reasonably priced here. I use straw for bedding in their shelters outdoors. I also throw in some occasional timothy hay and what is called "bedding" hay here, which is basically grass with alot of weeds in it. Even some occasional alfalfa hay. When mine have to come indoors in the fall before hibernation and for those that I keep awake during the winter I use hay as substrate for the adults and I always have fresh piles of timothy hay available for the young tortoises to graze on if they want to. I also do not put calcium on their food at all but offer it seperately in a shallow dish for them to consume when _they_ deem it necessary. Cuttlebone for larger tortoises, powdered calcium carbonate for young tortoises. I have never used any supplemental vitamins whatsoever. That's my long winded "theory"!


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## kimber_lee_314

I have seen my torts eat dried fruit tree leaves (apricot, orange, nectarine, and plum) usually in the later part of the season.


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## Yvonne G

There are two wax-leaf privets in my Aldabran pen. I think they're on the toxic plant lists. However, there are always leaves in the tortoises' poop and those are the only trees in there.


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## Madkins007

GBtortoises said:


> My "theory" is: I'm not sure about feeding high water content foods but I think most arid and temperate climate tortoise species should definitely have a much higher, dryer fiber content in their diet than they are probably getting. Along with a much lower vitamin content overall. Weed hay (as opposed to grass hay), leaves and dry greens should be a much larger part of their diet.



I am glad my theory makes sense to you.

As far as moisture goes, my thought is that many captive tortoises are dehydrated to one degree or another, and this causes other problems. Fresh greens (leaves right off a tree, growing plants, etc.) are reasonably 'wet', and most foods eaten in the mornings will have dew on them, etc. If your tort is not dehydrated, this is less of an issue.

I agree completely with more fiber- lettuces, etc. are very low in it. Field reports of Red-foot poo usually describe it as well-formed, full of fibers and sand, and green-brown- what you said modified for a different climate.


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## GBtortoises

Usually when I'm talking tortoises in captivity, I'm thinking outdoors, not indoors (even though I do have to do both because of climate). I think more often than not, tortoises kept indoors probably are dehydrated either slightly or seriously, depending upon their captive environmental conditions. Too much heat, not nearly enough ambient humidity or moisture in their substrate. I don't think is always the case but based on the never ending posts on this site alone about skinny, lightweight tortoises, dry substrates, urates, excessive use of heat and so on; it does seem to be a constant problem. I think when indoors higher water content foods probably are more beneficial to supply additional fluids. But it isn't what most tortoise's digestive systems are designed to handle. 
Outdoors, in most U.S. climates, maybe with the exception of the Southwest, when tortoises are active there is usually a higher ambient humidity and regular rainfall patterns. Something that at least Northern Mediterranean species are accustomed to. It's then that I think they should be on a diet content more designed for their digestive processing.


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