# Russian or Hermanns?!?!?



## gopherhockey03 (Oct 23, 2011)

Don't know which one to choose can anyone help me decide?!?!?!


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## dmmj (Oct 23, 2011)

*RE: Russian of Hermanns?!?!?*

I may be a little prejudiced, but I vote russian.


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## Jacqui (Oct 24, 2011)

*RE: Russian of Hermanns?!?!?*

To really give you a better well thought out choice, I would need to know more about you. Like what are you wanting this tortoise to do? Sit and look pretty? Will it be housed inside and out? Where do you live and how do you live? If the weather changes suddenly and dramatically, are you always able to rush to it's side or do you need hardy? Do you have thoughts on hibernation? Thoughts on WC or CB? Is price an object? Is shipping a problem?

For example with a quick mental check in my memory banks, your from N Dakota, you do hockey in a big way and your Grandparents had Russians, correct. So far that will lead me to advise you get a Russian. The Russian could take the cold better for those unforeseen power outages. They, in my opinion are tougher and hardier, so they could hold up better to either no care or care from somebody just tortoise sitting with no real knowledge of them. Then and to me this is a biggie, there is already an emotional family bond to the Russian.

Now if this animal were being gotten by me for me...ummm wait a second please. Terry do you mind closing your eyes for awhile? Okay he is hopefully not seeing this. If it were for me, I would choose the Hermanns. Come back with more details about you and the future you see for this tortoise and I will give you more thoughts on which one for you.


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## tinkerbell1189 (Oct 24, 2011)

*RE: Russian of Hermanns?!?!?*

I love my russian  so I vote Russian


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## grogansilver (Oct 24, 2011)

*RE: Russian of Hermanns?!?!?*

 "Jacqui i love your opinion on the matters of both species especially the Russians! but what would be a nice out look and opinion (thoughts) on your behalf of the Pancake tortoise?


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## Kailey (Oct 24, 2011)

*RE: Russian of Hermanns?!?!?*

I love my little Russian hatchling to death, he's such a little character. Based purely on aesthetics though, I would go for hermann's.


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## gopherhockey03 (Oct 24, 2011)

*RE: Russian of Hermanns?!?!?*

Price is not a problem, want a very sociable tort. It's gotta be cute obviously!!! Would like to give it a lot of outside time during summer. Will be inside from September to May. To scared to hibernate a tort so won't be doing that!!! This is just a big decision... Any other Tort's that stay below 8 inch's can also be thrown into the decision also!


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## dmmj (Oct 24, 2011)

*RE: Russian of Hermanns?!?!?*

Pancakes stay small but they are much more expensive.


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## jackrat (Oct 24, 2011)

*RE: Russian of Hermanns?!?!?*

Russian


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## Neltharion (Oct 24, 2011)

*RE: Russian of Hermanns?!?!?*



gopherhockey03 said:


> Price is not a problem, want a very sociable tort.



If price is not an issue, and you want a very sociable one then I would go Hermanns. All of my Hermann's will take food from my hand, and will peer out at me when I'm near the enclosure. They'll actually follow me from one end to the other. Russians are not quite as friendly, some of them are. Others can be quite shy.


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## Jacqui (Oct 25, 2011)

Friendliness and socializing levels are not a species thing in my opinion. It's more a matter of how you raise the animal and the animals own personality. This becoming more outgoing usually starts happening once they associate you with coming of food. An animal raised in captivity, usually is going to be friendlier, but WC (wild caughts) can be just as friendly with time. So this desire you want in a tortoise, is not going to change from one species to the next.

You want cute. Now the Russians may not be as strikingly beautiful, as the Hermanns with their more decorative and colorful carapaces, but they are cute in that sorta pudgy piggy type way. I have saw a few simply stunning Russians with high amounts of yellow, rather then the more drab dark carapaces you often see.


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## GeoTerraTestudo (Oct 25, 2011)

If you plan on keeping them outdoors, then I would try to pick the tortoise whose native habitat matches where you live most closely. Hermanns come from scrub- and woodlands, while Russians come from deserts and grasslands. Russians have a greater tolerance for cold winters and low humidity (although like all tortoises, they still need a moist microclimate). I would let that be your guide.


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## cemmons12 (Oct 25, 2011)

I love the female Russian (Ophelia) I am getting Saturday! lol! 
This week cant be over fast enough! Good luck on your decision!


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## jjbird60 (Oct 25, 2011)

RuSsIaN PoWer!!

I vote Russian because people think it's a great reptile!


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## Cherbear (Oct 25, 2011)

I've had both and my vote is for Hermann's. I don't know if all do this but when I had Russians they seemed to dig a scratch more. Maybe it was just mine.


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## Jacqui (Oct 26, 2011)

*RE: Russian of Hermanns?!?!?*



grogansilver said:


> "Jacqui i love your opinion on the matters of both species especially the Russians! but what would be a nice out look and opinion (thoughts) on your behalf of the Pancake tortoise?



I would love to, but I have not yet been lucky enough to have any of these interesting fellows yet. Everything I would say, would be based on reading, not with experience too. Also thank you for the nice comment.


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## Neltharion (Oct 26, 2011)

Jacqui said:


> Friendliness and socializing levels are not a species thing in my opinion. It's more a matter of how you raise the animal and the animals own personality. This becoming more outgoing usually starts happening once they associate you with coming of food.



I stand by my original statement. My own personal observation from owning a group of russians for several years. Some of them never completely came around. They still tuck in when being lifted. Don't come out of hiding when I'm around the enclosure. Only a few of them will take food from my hand. A handful of them are friendlier, but overall, they're not quite as tame. 

The hermanns, on the other hand are different. I acquired the group this year. Within a few days, they showed no fear. None of them tuck in when being held. All of them will take food from my hands. They all come out when I'm around.


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## GeoTerraTestudo (Oct 26, 2011)

Neltharion said:


> Jacqui said:
> 
> 
> > Friendliness and socializing levels are not a species thing in my opinion. It's more a matter of how you raise the animal and the animals own personality. This becoming more outgoing usually starts happening once they associate you with coming of food.
> ...



Is it because your Russians are WC, while your Hermanns are CB?


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## Neltharion (Oct 26, 2011)

GeoTerraTestudo said:


> Neltharion said:
> 
> 
> > Jacqui said:
> ...



They're both originally wild caught. I had actually read it somewhere before (maybe on here), that overall the hermanns have friendlier dispositions.


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## GeoTerraTestudo (Oct 26, 2011)

Neltharion said:


> They're both originally wild caught. I had actually read it somewhere before (maybe on here), that overall the hermanns have friendlier dispositions.



Yes, I've heard people say that, too. Your experience seems to be evidence of that.

But again, I think what matters most is the health of the animal. It's all well and good to have a tortoise that looks and acts the way you like, but it's not worth it if it dies from a respiratory tract infection. Environment-matching is a good way to avoid that sort of thing.


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## dmarcus (Oct 26, 2011)

I have never seen either one in person so I will go Hermanns just to be different...


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## GeoTerraTestudo (Oct 26, 2011)

dalano73 said:


> I have never seen either one in person so I will go Hermanns just to be different...



I have heard that Hermanns are more outgoing than any other _Testudo_ species, and perhaps even more than any other tortoise or turtle! Kinda makes you wonder what they're doing out there in the scrub: hunting down hikers for handouts? 

Hermanns, like Greeks, also have a beautifully contrasted carapace pattern, more so than the Russian, whose mottling is a bit more subdued. But as I said, there's more to selecting the right tortoise than just behavior and appearance.

I have owned Greeks, boxies, a redfoot, and Russians, and I think they are all awesome in their own way. Right now I have two Russians, and I just love watching them sniff each other's noses, run around, dig, forage, and feed, which they do ravenously during the growing season. I think they are very cool, and they do well where I live, so I'm glad I chose them.

Having never owned a Hermann myself, I can only say they seem like fascinating tortoises from what I've seen, and I have no doubt they make great pets, but I don't think they're the right tortoise for me, based on where I live.


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## dmmj (Oct 26, 2011)

Please pick russian,mine are holding me hostage until you choose a russian. (hurry)


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## dmarcus (Oct 26, 2011)

I do think all tortoises and turtles have specific things that make them unique. I have gotten to spend time inside of Matt's enclosure and was amazed by the pesonality that his redfoots and yellowfoots have. It's also because of his him and his adult box turtles that I decided to get a couple for myself. I think that if it's possible, you should spend time around the type of tortoise or turtle that you are interested in and this will help you decided what is best for you. 

For those tortoises that I have not seen in person, I just go by members experiences and pictures on this forum and some of the story's and descriptions make you feel like you are there with them enjoying it.


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## Jacqui (Oct 26, 2011)

I have found my Russians when placed outside in the summer, tend to go less friendly, but they still come running when they think food may be arriving. Most of my Russians are WC, with the exception of one I bred here and one I got as a hatchling from my friend. My wild adults are actually friendlier then them. 

My Hermanns are CB, but they are just not that "running to meet me" attitude I see in my Russians. Everybody has different experiences. 



Neltharion said:


> Jacqui said:
> 
> 
> > Friendliness and socializing levels are not a species thing in my opinion. It's more a matter of how you raise the animal and the animals own personality. This becoming more outgoing usually starts happening once they associate you with coming of food.
> ...



You and I have just had totally different experiences.


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## GeoTerraTestudo (Oct 26, 2011)

Jacqui said:


> I have found my Russians when placed outside in the summer, tend to go less friendly, but they still come running when they think food may be arriving. Most of my Russians are WC, with the exception of one I bred here and one I got as a hatchling from my friend. My wild adults are actually friendlier then them.



Makes sense that they would be aloof if they are living in a nearly free-ranging type of scenario. I have heard similar descriptions of captive box turtle colonies: independent, but still responsive at suppertime.


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## Jacqui (Oct 27, 2011)

dmmj said:


> Please pick russian,mine are holding me hostage until you choose a russian. (hurry)



Glad it's a nice enough tortoise to atleast let you still do your Mod duties.


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## tinkerbell1189 (Oct 27, 2011)

My Russian has been super friendly from day 1. She has always taken food out of my hand and never tucks in her shell, in fact as soon as she hears voices or movement she will come up to the front of her enclosure and stick her head right out as she likes having her head rubbed. She pushes her head up into your finger and will follow your hand about if you move it. She's awesome 

And she is only 2years old from a pet shop so wouldnt have had much previous handling. She is just very tame and definitley a strong character


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## jrholls (Oct 27, 2011)

I vote Russian . If money isn't an issue please try to buy a captive bred tort. I personally think cb Russians can be exceptionally good looking, and the cb tort trade needs support. Good luck


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## Terry Allan Hall (Jan 7, 2012)

Jacqui said:


> Now if this animal were being gotten by me for me...ummm wait a second please. Terry do you mind closing your eyes for awhile? Okay he is hopefully not seeing this. If it were for me, I would choose the Hermanns. Come back with more details about you and the future you see for this tortoise and I will give you more thoughts on which one for you.



LL Can I open 'em yet, Jacqui?...it's been a few months... LL

Another vote for a Hermann's tortoise...lot of personality in a compact size!


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## GBtortoises (Jan 8, 2012)

Hermann's and Russians are very similar in many ways. The biggest differences being that Russians are a true burrowing species and require _a lot_ of heat and light during normal activity periods. Hermann's, whether Easterns, Dalmatians or Westerns, are more adapt to slowly changing seasons and are much more active throughout most of those seasons. Although North Dakota is not ideal tortoise country by any means, both species would do well outdoors there in the summer and early fall. In terms of "personality", curiosity and human interaction Eastern Hermann's are the best of the two. Dalmatian Hermann's are a very close second.


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## gopherhockey03 (Jan 8, 2012)

So if you lived in ND like me you would keep them outdoors 24/7 during the summer and fall? I already picked and fell in love with my Russians I love them! But am considering getting Hermann's this summer!


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## pam (Jan 8, 2012)

I vote Russian  They are Awsome


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## GBtortoises (Jan 9, 2012)

gopherhockey03 said:


> So if you lived in ND like me you would keep them outdoors 24/7 during the summer and fall? I already picked and fell in love with my Russians I love them! But am considering getting Hermann's this summer!



Absolutely!


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## Terry Allan Hall (Jan 9, 2012)

gopherhockey03 said:


> So if you lived in ND like me you would keep them outdoors 24/7 during the summer and fall? I already picked and fell in love with my Russians I love them! But am considering getting Hermann's this summer!



Not that we'd want to be called "enablers"...but, yeah, you should! 

Hermann's are the most awesome species you can keep w/o eventually needing a hernia truss (a thinly veiled reference to 3 other awesome tortoise species, the sulcata, Aldabra & Galapagos)


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## lynnedit (Jan 9, 2012)

Most tortoises only come running because they think we have food, right? Not because they 'like' us, or are social? Don't most of them lead a solitary life except to mate? They might not mind us rubbing their heads, etc., but they aren't really domesticated like cats or dogs...
(ok, ok, tell us stories about your loving torts now...)
You do want to make sure you try to sort of match your climate to the species you pick, at least for part of the year...


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## gopherhockey03 (Jan 9, 2012)

Well I did a little research and the area they come from is identical to the weather where I live. Which is crazy I couldn't imagine my tortoises hibernating outside during the winter it's crazy cold here !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Russians are crazy hardy tortoises!!!


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## Hardknox (Jan 9, 2012)

lynnedit said:


> Most tortoises only come running because they think we have food, right? Not because they 'like' us, or are social? Don't most of them lead a solitary life except to mate? They might not mind us rubbing their heads, etc., but they aren't really domesticated like cats or dogs...
> (ok, ok, tell us stories about your loving torts now...)
> You do want to make sure you try to sort of match your climate to the species you pick, at least for part of the year...



I have no stories of lovey dovey torts to share but this publication would certainly disagree with you. In the study a great amount of success was had with classical and operant conditioning using both a feeding response as well as tactile stimuli. Just something to consider before you start to presume animals are simpler than they really are...

asi.emailhandlers.net/assets/library/174_jaws060103.pdf

(mod note: If the link doesn't work for you, copy paste it into a GOOGLE search box and a PDF paper comes up about training aldabra tortoises)


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## Terry Allan Hall (Jan 10, 2012)

gopherhockey03 said:


> Well I did a little research and the area they come from is identical to the weather where I live. Which is crazy I couldn't imagine my tortoises hibernating outside during the winter it's crazy cold here !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Russians are crazy hardy tortoises!!!



Russian tortoises originate in some of the least habitable real estate on Earth, so yeah, they're tough littlw dudes/dudettes...but Hermann's are generally friendlier.



lynnedit said:


> Most tortoises only come running because they think we have food, right? Not because they 'like' us, or are social? Don't most of them lead a solitary life except to mate? They might not mind us rubbing their heads, etc., but they aren't really domesticated like cats or dogs...
> (ok, ok, tell us stories about your loving torts now...)
> You do want to make sure you try to sort of match your climate to the species you pick, at least for part of the year...



It really depends on the tortoise and it's species, and how much time you put into building a trust, but some tortoises are actually very friendly, even when fully fed.

Not that they'd EVER turn down an additional tasty treat!


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## lynnedit (Jan 10, 2012)

Hardknox said:


> I have no stories of lovey dovey torts to share but this publication would certainly disagree with you. In the study a great amount of success was had with classical and operant conditioning using both a feeding response as well as tactile stimuli. Just something to consider before you start to presume animals are simpler than they really are...
> 
> asi.emailhandlers.net/assets/library/174_jaws060103.pdf



Great article thanks! Reminds me of the other article about torts being very good at learning mazes. I am constantly astounded at both my torts' adaptability and memories! I agree they are not simple, (just different than domesticated pets, of course). That becomes clear when you see the variation in their personalities. My 3 larger torts are unafraid of me, and let me work in their enclosures w/o concern. When I am in the greenhouse, one of them will twine around my feet, so I have to be CAREFUL.

Russians are hardy. I believe it is true that a percentage don't make it through hibernation in the wild, although of course they have no choice but to do it. Even they probably make mistakes guessing how deep the frost will go, etc. 
Tanner, since you have Russians, you could expand your herd to 1:3 as one option. (And then you could get Hermann's too, lol. They sound wonderful).
In your climate, make sure in the summer enclosure that you have plenty of shady areas, so they can escape the really hot sun. Might work to incorporate a small tree on one end.


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## GeoTerraTestudo (Jan 10, 2012)

lynnedit said:


> Great article thanks! Reminds me of the other article about torts being very good at learning mazes. I am constantly astounded at both my torts' adaptability and memories! I agree they are not simple, (just different than domesticated pets, of course). That becomes clear when you see the variation in their personalities. My 3 larger torts are unafraid of me, and let me work in their enclosures w/o concern. When I am in the greenhouse, one of them will twine around my feet, so I have to be CAREFUL.



All vertebrates have true brains (as opposed to just cephalic ganglia, like insects), so they can learn complex behaviors. Reptiles like tortoises are no exception, since both in the wild and in captivity, they need to figure out where to go and what to eat. But of course, tortoises have brains that are much smaller than those of mammals like dogs, cats, and horses (both in absolute and relative terms), so they are never going to be as interactive as those more intelligent pets.


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## gopherhockey03 (Jan 10, 2012)

[/quote]

Great article thanks! Reminds me of the other article about torts being very good at learning mazes. I am constantly astounded at both my torts' adaptability and memories! I agree they are not simple, (just different than domesticated pets, of course). That becomes clear when you see the variation in their personalities. My 3 larger torts are unafraid of me, and let me work in their enclosures w/o concern. When I am in the greenhouse, one of them will twine around my feet, so I have to be CAREFUL.

Russians are hardy. I believe it is true that a percentage don't make it through hibernation in the wild, although of course they have no choice but to do it. Even they probably make mistakes guessing how deep the frost will go, etc. 
Tanner, since you have Russians, you could expand your herd to 1:3 as one option. (And then you could get Hermann's too, lol. They sound wonderful).
In your climate, make sure in the summer enclosure that you have plenty of shady areas, so they can escape the really hot sun. Might work to incorporate a small tree on one end.


[/quote]

I would LOVE to have two more females! I have the room and the supplies but I can't find any! I post everywhere looking for them! but don't want to pay $200 for 1 female!!!! You guys know where to look for a couple females?!? But yes it's weird to hear that Hermanns are more friendly considering my Russians already chase my fingers and always come to see me when i'm cleaning their enclosure. They are almost to friendly!!!


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## lynnedit (Jan 10, 2012)

The are hard to find, but keep checking craigslist and this site. Check Freecycle in your area too, I saw a female there in summer (I was not quick enough). Problem is a lot of people don't know what they have...
You have to LURK.
Good luck...


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## Terry Allan Hall (Jan 10, 2012)

gopherhockey03 said:


> I would LOVE to have two more females! I have the room and the supplies but I can't find any! I post everywhere looking for them! but don't want to pay $200 for 1 female!!!! You guys know where to look for a couple females?!? But yes it's weird to hear that Hermanns are more friendly considering my Russians already chase my fingers and always come to see me when i'm cleaning their enclosure. They are almost to friendly!!!



Starting about early April, start checking these good folk's site...I've done business w/ them in the past and plan to again, this spring... it's always been easy-breezy w/ very healthy specimens @ excellent prices and reasonable S/H charges.

http://www.undergroundreptiles.com/


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## gopherhockey03 (Jan 11, 2012)

Nice! I have heard of them they seemed kinda sketchy they have Pancake Tortoises for $99 which is crazy cheap. What did you buy from them?


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## jkingler (Jan 11, 2012)

I, too, am curious, as those budget-priced (even though WC) pancakes were unexpected. Would they be your top recommendation for someone looking to get a t.h. boettgeri? Thinking of getting one.


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## Terry Allan Hall (Jan 11, 2012)

gopherhockey03 said:


> Nice! I have heard of them they seemed kinda sketchy they have Pancake Tortoises for $99 which is crazy cheap. What did you buy from them?



Ptolemy, Ophelia and Apollonia came from these folks.

I, too, was "cautious" about them, do to their prices, but I got a lot of positive feedback off folks who've done business w/ them in the past, and so I ordered another female Hermann's to go along w/ Jennifer...the day they were supposed to ship, I got a call from them that they'd just OK'd a fresh batch from quarantine, and would I like them to hand-pick me the nicest one, that it mnight add a day to the process...I told them that I supposed that that's be OK.

About an hour later, I got another call that a particularily choice female was on it's way to me, so there'd be no delay, after all, and that she'd eaten from his fingers enthusiastically, and to expect her about 10am the next day...and if I hadn't recieved her by 11am, to be sure and call, so he could check up on the delivery.

The following morning, Ophelia arrived about 10 after the hour, I offered her some collard greens, which she lit right into...about then, I called to let them know she'd arrived, and they asked if she wasn't a really beautiful example!

I like buying from enthusiastic folks. 

A month or so later, I decided to order a couple more, a male and another female, thus rounding out my desired 1M/3F ratio...called and made my request, and the same fellow I'd spoken to before remembered me and told me that they were out of Hermann's but expected some in the next week, took my # and told me that if I hadn't heard from them in a week, to feel free to call back, that they might have a more exact idea of when more Hermann's tortoise would be in. 

A few days later, I got a call, wanting to know if I was still looking, as someone had sold them a small group and there was still one female and a VERY "amorous" male not yet spoken for, that the female was a little smaller, so might not be breedable until a year after my other two, but was a very nice looker, and that her could send both for the same price as one larger female (like Ophelia). I told him, "Sure". They was Ptolemy and Apollonia.

All three came through quarantine beautifully, all three are still perfectly healthy, and I've since ordered a boa constrictor for a nephew, and a Savannah monitor for a friend's son, and plan on getting two more female Hermann's in the spring.

Like I said, good people to deal with. Wish I could remember the guy who I dealt with's name.


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## Neltharion (Jan 11, 2012)

gopherhockey03 said:


> Nice! I have heard of them they seemed kinda sketchy they have Pancake Tortoises for $99 which is crazy cheap. What did you buy from them?



They were selling the pancakes at a higher price. Seems that they're sold out of females, so they went ahead and slashed the prices to try and unload the leftover males. They've done that with other species before.





Terry Allan Hall said:


> Like I said, good people to deal with. Wish I could remember the guy who I dealt with's name.



For mail order, you were most likely dealing with Ryan. He helped me the few times that I ordered green tree pythons from them.


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## Terry Allan Hall (Jan 11, 2012)

Neltharion said:


> gopherhockey03 said:
> 
> 
> > Nice! I have heard of them they seemed kinda sketchy they have Pancake Tortoises for $99 which is crazy cheap. What did you buy from them?
> ...





*I think you may be right...that name does sound correct!*


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## dmarcus (Jan 11, 2012)

I am definitely hoping to get a couple females Hermanns in the future and hopefully at a good price...


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## Terry Allan Hall (Jan 12, 2012)

jkingler said:


> I, too, am curious, as those budget-priced (even though WC) pancakes were unexpected. Would they be your top recommendation for someone looking to get a t.h. boettgeri? Thinking of getting one.



Yes, they sold me 3 of my 4, as well as a few other herps...been 100% satisfied w/ each transaction. 

Seems they start getting T.h.b.s (and many other tort species) in about late spring.

BTW, apologies for taking so long to answer your post...missed it last night!


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## jkingler (Jan 12, 2012)

Thanks for responding. I'll try to keep my eyes peeled re: their t.h.b. listings, and it is good to know that they take your temperament preferences into account. Do you think that they would show me pictures of the torts they have stocked (e.g. their carapace, plastron, etc.) before I decided which one to purchase?


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## Ashliewood (Jan 12, 2012)

Love my Russian!!! He is quite sociable and very hardy! He took a winter road trip with me in his tub to Montana(10 hr drive) and it didn't seem to affect him. He runs around my bathroom chasing my hand around, loves his neck rubbed! Such a sweet boy


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## Terry Allan Hall (Jan 15, 2012)

jkingler said:


> Thanks for responding. I'll try to keep my eyes peeled re: their t.h.b. listings, and it is good to know that they take your temperament preferences into account. Do you think that they would show me pictures of the torts they have stocked (e.g. their carapace, plastron, etc.) before I decided which one to purchase?



No idea, but it couldn't hurt to ask.


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## mango x (Jan 16, 2012)

I personally vote Russian- I love my little mango and he loves to be stroked and cuddled( no friendliness issues there!!!!!!!) he also will gladly eat from my hand and LOVES baths, but next door have a hermanns tort and he is absolutely gorgeous too!


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