# How Can I Treat his mouth?



## Mina Adel (Jul 20, 2016)

I think it is some sort of fungus.
he is opening his mouth all the time.
and there is mush saliva in his mouth. and a white color.


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## Eric Phillips (Jul 20, 2016)

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/mouth-rot-help.20856/


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## Kori5 (Jul 20, 2016)

Mina how do you know it's mouth rot? I'm sorry but that tortoise looks very sick and I think only a vet can help him. I think you should have known by now how dangerous is to treat them with drugs without supervision .


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## G-stars (Jul 20, 2016)

Sounds more like a respiratory infection to me. Keep him warm.


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## JoesMum (Jul 20, 2016)

With the history of Mina's torts, this could be anything. 

Mina, needless to say, this tort must be kept in isolation from the rest to prevent the spread of infection


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## jockma (Jul 20, 2016)

I don't think mouth rot alone would lead to open mouth breathing, maybe mouth rot + respiratory infection?


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## Mina Adel (Jul 20, 2016)

JoesMum said:


> With the history of Mina's torts, this could be anything.
> 
> Mina, needless to say, this tort must be kept in isolation from the rest to prevent the spread of infection


He is not mine. someone asked me for help. and have him to me. I am keeping him alone.
we are in summer. the weather is hot .


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## Yvonne G (Jul 20, 2016)

From the Tortoise Trust web site:





*Stomatitis:* If caught early, swab mouth twice daily with diluted Nolvasan or povidone-iodine (Betadine liquid). Severe infections need urgent veterinary treatment. Regular beak maintenance is important to prevent stomatitis. Some forms are caused by a herpes-group virus. Mixed colonies are much more at risk than small same-species groups maintained in isolation. Treatment is prolonged and often the prognosis is poor.


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## BrianWI (Jul 20, 2016)

This tort will need antibiotic shots as well. Can be done at home if you are comfortable using farm store antibiotics and sterile saline mixes and giving a tort a shot. Smaller torts are much harder. If that sounds too hard, a vet visit is necessary.


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## JoesMum (Jul 20, 2016)

BrianWI said:


> This tort will need antibiotic shots as well. Can be done at home if you are comfortable using farm store antibiotics and sterile saline mixes and giving a tort a shot. Smaller torts are much harder. If that sounds too hard, a vet visit is necessary.


Don't even start with that. This tort is in Egypt. We have had a big problem with guesswork medication here.


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## BrianWI (Jul 20, 2016)

JoesMum said:


> Don't even start with that. This tort is in Egypt. We have had a big problem with guesswork medication here.


I will offer my advice, you offer yours.


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## Mina Adel (Jul 22, 2016)

BrianWI said:


> I will offer my advice, you offer yours.


Joesmum knows that I am very bad with antibiotics. I am not good at giving shots.
i think that's all what she means.


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## Mina Adel (Jul 22, 2016)

BrianWI said:


> I will offer my advice, you offer yours.


Thank you all a lot. 
I really need all your supportments.


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## deadheadvet (Jul 22, 2016)

I would be very concerned about Herpes Virus or Adenovirus. If that is the underlying etiology, can not do much for this tortoise. Keeping the mouth clean w/ a 1:30 dilution of betadine might be of help. The likelihood of finding appropriate vet care where you are is minimal. Any antibiotic that would be appropriate for this animal is not going to be available. It will probably not eat in the condition it is in. I would be very pessimistic based on the images provided.


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## Mina Adel (Jul 22, 2016)

he died quickly. the muscles of his fore limbs were contracted outside. his fore limbs were hard to move. as if he had prior convulsions. or some kind of epilepsy.
I got him less that a week ago.


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## JoesMum (Jul 23, 2016)

Mina Adel said:


> he died quickly. the muscles of his fore limbs were contracted outside. his fore limbs were hard to move. as if he had prior convulsions. or some kind of epilepsy.
> I got him less that a week ago.


Really sorry to hear this Mina. It's not your fault. That tort came to you very sick indeed.


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## jockma (Jul 23, 2016)

The stiffness naturally occurs after death. I'm sorry Mina.


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## Kori5 (Jul 24, 2016)

Mina Adel said:


> he died quickly. the muscles of his fore limbs were contracted outside. his fore limbs were hard to move. as if he had prior convulsions. or some kind of epilepsy.
> I got him less that a week ago.


I'm so sorry for your loss .


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## mark1 (Jul 24, 2016)

i realize this was not your tortoise , but when you took him , the way i would see it , you took responsibility for him ......he may have been too far gone , it happens , but i'd have felt obligated to give him the best chance possible ...if i wasn't willing or able to do that , the owner would be taking him back home to watch him die , hopefully it would bother them ........ if this is a hobby you wish to pursue ? personally i would encourage you to find yourself a veterinarian for the medical care of your animals ....... there are numerous aquariums , zoos and exotic animal dealers in egypt ,i have a hard time believing those establishments have noone in the country to give their animals medical care ....... i would think there are most likely wildlife rescues there , you must have endangered species there ? ....before i'd just let them die , or kill them trying to treat them , i'd take them to a willing dog vet , and i have , as far as basic medical care , i assure you they're gonna take better guesses than what i believe you will .....i know and guarantee you any vets that have done surgeries on my dogs are smart enough to treat a turtle with antibiotics .... my opinion is , if i couldn't for any reason get obviously needed medical care for my animals , dogs or turtles , i wouldn't have any of them ...........


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## JoesMum (Jul 24, 2016)

@mark1 and any others

I would encourage you to read through Mina's previous posts.

He lives in Egypt where the attitude of others to tortoises is quite different to Mina's and the availability of vets is somewhere between very poor and non-existent.

He would love to have a vet on call, but their availability and willingness to treat torts just isn't there. It is hard for those of us in the western world to comprehend this attitude to animals, but Mina is trying her hardest with very few resources at her disposal.


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## mark1 (Jul 24, 2016)

i've seen most of his post ...........i'd be interested in hearing what he's tried as far as finding a vet ? i know there is an aquarium in alexandria , i believe a marine research institute ? i understand they keep marine and freshwater turtles ......... there is a zoo and an aquarium in cairo , an aquarium in hurghada that does have pics of sea turtles ... those took me a minute to find on "trip advisor" ........... i would think they have medical care for their animals if for no other reason monetary ...... there are conservation groups in egypt trying to save the egyptian tortoise .......


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## Mina Adel (Jul 24, 2016)

here no care for tortoises.
tens die daily. they are cheap.
these pictures are of 2 pet stores.
we know nothing about them.
I hope you can teach me more to save them before it is too late.


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## mark1 (Jul 24, 2016)

http://www.americanvetcenter.com/ they say on their website they treat Dogs, Cats, Avians, *Reptiles & Exotics* , and have 4 offices .... if they don't work for you call them and ask for a reference ........ 

http://www.americanvetcenter.com/




*Zamalik*
30- El Gezira EL Wosta Street
Zamalik , Cairo, Egypt. 11211
Tel:
27376668
27376664
Mob.# 01110801801


*Maadi*
11 C , 199 ST, Degla
,دجله ،199 شارع ،11 ج
Ma'adi, Cairo, Egypt
Tel: 25177266
Mob: 0110 803 803



*Alexandria*
254 El -Gaish Rd - Stanly
El Cornish Street, Alexandria Egypt
Mob:01110804999



*Zayed*
in front of Al Rabwah compound , Gate (2) ., 12 St
امام منتجع الربوه مدخل 2- شارع 12
Tel .# 011 0802802
Mob#38 524 2060


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## Mina Adel (Jul 24, 2016)

trust me I spent a lot of money. and I don't have much 
I want to do a simple farm to raise a new generation of captive born Egyptian torts. 
in case they extinct. and they are going to.


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## jockma (Jul 24, 2016)

@mark1 I really do not think it's that simple. This isn't a problem only Mina has encountered, many owners have a difficult time locating veterinary care. A dog and cat vet can refuse to treat a tortoise outright or make dangerous/deadly mistakes (Ivermectin as a dewormer for example).

Many zoos and conservation programs are understaffed and underfunded. It would surprise me if they readily agreed to treat a tortoise belonging to someone that had no association with the program. Sometimes smaller conservation programs do not have trained vets onsite, they simply have the means to summon a vet when necessary and I doubt they would do so for a tortoise that was not a part of their program. It is worth a few phone calls to find out for sure but I would not be surprised if they refused as conservation programs worldwide tend to already lack resources for the animals already under their care.

I feel this is a difficult situation for Mina and I really don't think this is something he does on a whim. I don't think he would consistently post on here for help and advice if he was not trying to help these animals, I believe him when he says he has looked for vets and found none.


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## Kori5 (Jul 24, 2016)

These pictures are terrible and disgusting. Poor animals, it makes me so sad .


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## jockma (Jul 24, 2016)

Those pictures are hard to look at. I don't feel America is better, just more covert. There were kids smuggling dozens of turtles in their sweatshirts and selling them back in school. Other schools too. People were selling them at fast food joints and supermarkets as well, they were buying them from breeder farms and selling for a profit. Kids in my school got a three day suspension and a "stern warning" to stop. IIRC they were an endangered species (the only reason the school intervened) and they'd die so quickly from suffocating in backpacks/hoodie pockets that kids would just walk up to trash cans and toss them during the day. I was scared of going to the bathroom or anywhere that I might see one thrown away. It was disturbing then and disturbing now.

I think I understand better where you're coming from, Mina. I am not surprised at all that tortoises coming from conditions like that end up with health problems.


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## mark1 (Jul 24, 2016)

maybe so , personally i think most of them don't get care because they're not worth it ........it's actually illogical to spend $100 on a sick turtle that still may die as opposed to buying a new one for $50 ...... when i'm guessing , i do know to bet the odds ........... as i said in my first post , if i didn't have the medical help i needed for my animals i wouldn't have them , i have a tough time just watching stuff die and doing nothing , and i know too much to think i'm gonna cure most of this stuff by warming them up and soaking them ....... if you have a dog vet that harms your tortoise by giving it care he doesn't know the adverse affects of , personally not someone who'd be treating my dogs , i tend to seek out smarter vets ...... 

not to be mean , but i've seen some of your decisions on treatments , i'm pretty sure if your gonna farm egyptian tortoises , i can confidently say , you'll fail without finding a source of medical care ......... heck , wild tortoises get sick ........


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## Kori5 (Jul 24, 2016)

mark1 said:


> maybe so , personally i think most of them don't get care because they're not worth it ........it's actually illogical to spend $100 on a sick turtle that still may die as opposed to buying a new one for $50 ...... when i'm guessing , i do know to bet the odds ........... as i said in my first post , if i didn't have the medical help i needed for my animals i wouldn't have them , i have a tough time just watching stuff die and doing nothing , and i know too much to think i'm gonna cure most of this stuff by warming them up and soaking them ....... if you have a dog vet that harms your tortoise by giving it care he doesn't know the adverse affects of , personally not someone who'd be treating my dogs , i tend to seek out smarter vets ......
> 
> not to be mean , but i've seen some of your decisions on treatments , i'm pretty sure if your gonna farm egyptian tortoises , i can confidently say , you'll fail without finding a source of medical care ......... heck , wild tortoises get sick ........


I really love your posts and you tend to say what I think. Of course Mina is helping as he can and I believe he is a great person for doing it. But to do animal rescue you need to have financial support and a great vet. Without these two I don't think it is possible to help a animal. And you suffer watching them suffer. I would suggest finding a good vet, it is hard to believe there isn't one who is willing to help you at least with the dosage and drug advice . Maybe even someone online, someone of the members here. It is better than giving an overdose of antibiotic.


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## Rue (Jul 24, 2016)

Mina Adel said:


> here no care for tortoises.
> tens die daily. they are cheap.
> these pictures are of 2 pet stores.
> we know nothing about them.
> ...



Governments have to make changes happen, they won't happen on their own.

What I find ironic, is this situation, compared to North American pet stores. North American pet stores might not be the best (over all; some are great, some are awful) but at least there are some rules governing how animals are kept, yet I keep reading posts from indignant people stating that their local pet store doesn't keep the animals in the best conditions...and that they told them so, and that they are gonna teach the so-and-so a lesson...etc.

Well, what we tend to forget here, is that a pet store is a store. They are not a zoo. They are a short-term holding facility. Animals are NOT kept in permanent, ideal enclosures. So if you see a betta fish in a small cup, a kitten in a small pen or a tortoise in a 10 g aquarium on rabbit pellets - that is not showing you what the ideal living conditions are. It is up to the new owner to provide that for the animal. 

Pet stores have to have easy to clean and easy to maintain holding enclosures.

What I do wish, is that the pet supply manufacturers would start showing - and making - better animal cages. People will buy what is available, even if it's too small or just wrong, and think that it is adequate. I am continually appalled at ads and packaging showing goldfish being kept in tiny aquariums, or betta being kept in betta bowls. Even a betta needs a 5 g, filtered (possibly heated) tank. And a 5 g tank is not big.

If the manufacturers showed attractive, beautiful, healthy set-ups, as the norm, then that's what people will start to gravitate towards.

So next time we feel like complaining about the conditions in our local pet stores, remember the conditions in other parts of the world, such as these photos of MIna's. We can certainly strive towards making local conditions even better, but our temporary housing is pretty decent in most stores. They do care for their animals, because they have to sell them. Selling dead, sick, dying animals is not good for business.


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## mark1 (Jul 24, 2016)

Mina ,if any of those tortoises are egyptian tortoises , send your pics and story to this guy Dr. Sherif Baha El Din [email protected] ...... also contact the nature conservation sector of the Environmental Affairs Agency ..... egyptian tortoises ,unless i'm misinformed , are appendix l , and are illegal to possess , sell or transport in egypt without a permit ............. the laws are in place , e-mail and call the folks who can get them enforced , folks like Dr. Sherif Baha El Din are among those that know how , if you can contact him he probably could help you , he'd probably take care of it himself if it's a regular occurrence ......... thisinformation is pretty easily accessible , if it happens to be out dated , i doubt it'd be hard to get the current info ............ here's some cites contacts in egypt

https://cites.org/eng/cms/index.php/component/cp/country/EG


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