# bird vitamins



## moswen (May 27, 2010)

Is "ultravite" brand "vita-sol multi vitamin for all birds" a good vitamin to put in my tort's bath water? It has a picture of a yellow canary, a parakeet, and a cockatiel on the front and it's a white bottle with orange on the label as a background for the word ultravite


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## Yvonne G (May 27, 2010)

I think any brand of the liquid bird vitamins would be ok.


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## Madkins007 (May 27, 2010)

A couple of things...

1. Why in the bath water? They will not absorb much, if any, of the vitamins through their waterproof skin. In the olden days, we did this because we were treating turtles as if they were fish, but I do not know a good reason to add vitamins to tortoise bath water. 

1.a. One point about vitamins in the water- how do you know what dosage the tortoise is getting? Another interesting point is that three important vitamins, A, D, and E are fat-soluble and do not dissolve readily in water, so they are either making an oily film, not included, or an emulsifier is being used to keep them in the water.

2. Vitamins are vitamins. A study done on several reptile vitamins found that the levels in the container did not match the label, and other sources have pointed out that ouce for ounce, you pay much more for pet vitamins then you do for human. Human vitamins are better tested, cheaper, and better regulated. For my torts, I use a small pinch of crushed human vitamins.

2.a. A quick test for suitability is to check the ratio of A to D to E. The standard zoos look for is about 100:10:1 (100 units of A to 10 units of D to 1 unit of E). Vitamin A is cheap, and people think it helps more than it does, so you often find pet vitamins that run 5,000:10:1- which is bad news since the fat soluble vitamins accumulate in the tissues and can become toxic if they build up too much.

3. Just as a general reminder- vitamins should be used as an insurance policy in both humans and animals. The diet should provide everything they need, and a small dose of vitamins used occasionally, if ever, to make sure that they are getting everything. Few people or animals need a big daily dose of vitamins, and in fact, this can be bad for both of us.


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## moswen (May 27, 2010)

Wow that's very interesting, I didn't know most of that stuff! It's not bad to have too many vitamins. The body absorbs what you need and you pee out the rest. Unless that's changed in the last two years, that's what I was taught when I was in school. And I'm trying to give my babies the best chance at life, that's why I want to use the vitamins, but I am giving them a good diet as well. Thanks for your help everyone!


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## GBtortoises (May 27, 2010)

All absolutely excellent points Mark!
I don't think that point #3 has ever been stressed enough, even on this forum.

It seems like more and more tortoise keepers today have the philosophy that if they coat everything with vitamins all the time they can then simply feed their tortoise a minimal variety diet as long as it holds the powdered vitamins long enough for the tortoise to swallow them. 

I still stand by not using _any_ supplemental vitamins and feeding a good quality, varied diet instead.


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## Yvonne G (May 27, 2010)

This is what's so great about having a forum where everyone is allowed to express their opinion. Some of us DO believe that the tortoise, especially babies that don't eat well, do absorb a bit of the nutrients from their soaking water. Yes, their skin is mainly water proof, but the thin skin around the cloaca and under the chin allows absorption. I've seen the vitamin soaks help box turtles with swollen shut eyes. I've seen it first hand. 

So, you read all you can, do your research, then try what you think would be of help to you.


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## chadk (May 27, 2010)

Yvonne, how do you know it was not just the water soak itself and other factors that helped the boxies? (the 'other factors' could be other medicines, better diet, better temps, healing infections, etc).

GB - which number 3 are you referring to? The actual labeled #3 or the actual 3rd item listed? If you notice, there are 2 number 1's. Maybe a mod can fix that nice list?


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## terracolson (May 27, 2010)

I soak my babies and sick torts in the bird vitamins. Worse case they dont absorb them and i wasted a few cents.

I dont use the complete bottle, just a few drops.


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## Madkins007 (May 27, 2010)

chadk said:


> Yvonne, how do you know it was not just the water soak itself and other factors that helped the boxies? (the 'other factors' could be other medicines, better diet, better temps, healing infections, etc).
> 
> GB - which number 3 are you referring to? The actual labeled #3 or the actual 3rd item listed? If you notice, there are 2 number 1's. Maybe a mod can fix that nice list?



There is a 1, and a 1a, and a 2 and a 2a. Was done with the list, added a few and was too tired to renumber them! b3esides, 1a is tightly related to 1, etc.

Well, it made sense at the time!



moswen said:


> Wow that's very interesting, I didn't know most of that stuff! It's not bad to have too many vitamins. The body absorbs what you need and you pee out the rest. Unless that's changed in the last two years, that's what I was taught when I was in school. And I'm trying to give my babies the best chance at life, that's why I want to use the vitamins, but I am giving them a good diet as well. Thanks for your help everyone!



Not quite true, sadly. You only pass the WATER-SOLUBLE vitamins, so it is true you can not overdose on those. Vit. B, C, etc. are pretty safe in that sense.

As mentioned, however, the FAT-SOLUBLE vitamins, A, D, and E, do not pass in the urine, build in the body's fat stores and can reach toxic levels if they build up faster than the animal uses them. You do not have to take my word for it- you can google it or see it in any nutrition book.

Keep in mind, also, that many vitamin mixtures are not based on actual research- no one KNOWS how much vitamin D a tortoise needs for sure- so they are just guesses, and sadly, some of it is marketing. 

For example, a lot of people think, wrongly, that vitamin A is a big part of turtle eye problems (it IS a problem in boxies, not so much other species), and it is a cheap ingredient to add, so a lot of reptile vitamins have a LOT of vitamin A in them- sometimes thousands of times more than they probably need, and it can make a tortoise, especially a young tortoise, sick.

Vitamin A and vitamin D overdoses are often seen by reptile vets when people overdo the vitamins.



emysemys said:


> This is what's so great about having a forum where everyone is allowed to express their opinion. Some of us DO believe that the tortoise, especially babies that don't eat well, do absorb a bit of the nutrients from their soaking water. Yes, their skin is mainly water proof, but the thin skin around the cloaca and under the chin allows absorption. I've seen the vitamin soaks help box turtles with swollen shut eyes. I've seen it first hand.
> 
> So, you read all you can, do your research, then try what you think would be of help to you.



I hope you understand, Yvonne, that I am not trying to pick a fight with you, and that I have nothing but respect for you and your work, but how do you know any vitamins were absorbed? 

If a before and after blood test showed an increased level of vitamins, I would gladly eat my words and change my tune, but I have found nothing that supports that idea. It is possible that it was the soaks and other loving cares they got from you that did the trick.

I'd love to put my money where my mouth was- take a big group of babies and try this out with blood tests- but I don't have any babies and I am too broke anyway. But I would be glad to contribute something to anyone else interesting in doing a trial run!



terracolson said:


> I soak my babies and sick torts in the bird vitamins. Worse case they dont absorb them and i wasted a few cents.
> 
> I dont use the complete bottle, just a few drops.



Worst case scenario is that they DO absorb the vitamins and die a painful death from an overdose of A or D. 

Not a likely scenario I understand, just the worst possible outcome.

(I have 4 kinds, I am REALLY good at the 'Worst Case Scenario' game!  )


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## Yvonne G (May 27, 2010)

Madkins007 said:


> I hope you understand, Yvonne, that I am not trying to pick a fight with you, and that I have nothing but respect for you and your work, but how do you know any vitamins were absorbed?



Of course I know that! That's what is so great about allowing everyone to express their opinion and not shooting each other down. Far as I'm concerned, the more opinions expressed the better. I know that the bird vitamin soak or baby food soak works because the turtles and baby tortoises I've used it on were not eating and their eyes were swollen shut. After three days of soaks, the eyes were opened and they started eating. I tried three days of plain water soaks and it did nothing.


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## moswen (May 28, 2010)

Well thanks everyone for your advice! All I needed was to make sure my vitamins I got were OK to soak my babies in! This forum is always full of knowledge and I love learning it all!


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