# SUDAN SULCATAS: HEY TOM! CHECK OUT THE SWIMMING SUDANS!



## DeanS

Of course, everyone is invited! Last week I acquired two more of the Sudans from Tom! His others are enormous, so we decided it would be a good idea to let his smaller two join mine! 

This is one I got from Tom. Though smaller than the other's Tom has, we're still talking 4.25" and 240 grams at 8 months.






This is the other one from Tom...a little smaller at 4.25" and 202 grams.





This is the largest of mine and he's 4.5" and tips the scales at 245 grams...that's a 10 gram gain since Tom's arrived.





Finally, these last two are the smallest (surviving) animals. The first is 3" and weighs 96 gram, while the second remains a diminutive 2.5" and 62 grams...aren't they cute.









Note...I left out the middle two as they were boring and didn't photograph well!


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## mainey34

They are very pretty...they are so cute swimming...


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## spikethebest

very nice. great pics.


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## sibi

But, they don't really look like they're enjoying the swim. They looked stress, perhaps because they aren't meant to swim? Didn't Tom insist that torts don't swim? But, they are beautiful and look soooo cute.


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## wellington

I actually think they look very comfortable in the water. Don't look stressed to me at all. Nice pics, great looking torts.


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## DeanS

sibi said:


> Didn't Tom insist that torts don't swim?



Nope! In fact, we have a running bet that his Daisy (who has grown immensely over the past year), may or may not be able to still swim!


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## cemmons12

Very nice Dean! First time I have seen them swim! I think Cooper would sink like a boulder!


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## Rambo

Sulcatas can swim?????THE HECK??????? thats news to me, i wonder if leopards can swim?


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## sibi

WOW! I'd like to see that! Tom, does Daisy still swim? Should members who have sullies put them in pools to swim?


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## Neal

Rambo said:


> Sulcatas can swim?????THE HECK??????? thats news to me, i wonder if leopards can swim?



They float. All of the tortoises that I have placed in deep water have all floated.


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## cemmons12

Neal said:


> Rambo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sulcatas can swim?????THE HECK??????? thats news to me, i wonder if leopards can swim
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They float. All of the tortoises that I have placed in deep water have all floated.
Click to expand...


I am to big of a chicken to try that with Cooper, Ophelia is so small I would consider it maybe.?.


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## AZtortMom

Beautiful babies 


My biggest one Moe does a great impression of a cork and puts his feet out behind him and floats in his bath when I soak him  silly turtle


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## DeanS

Two things I forgot to mention! When I said I acquired the first two, I mean Tom gave them to me...that's how generous he is! Also, depth perception be a *****! The water is about 10" deep!


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## cemmons12

Tom is a good guy! And you are too Dean! Hope someday I can make it back to California to possibly get to meet some of you out there. My wife has family in Riverside and around that area. Whats the biggest tortoise you have had swim by the way?


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## luvpetz27

They dont look stressed at all to me! They look like they are having so much fun! They are so cute and look so happy!


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## sibi

I think there's only one or two pics where I see their eye bug out: Pic #1 & 3. I mean, when my sullies are spooked, their eyes look like that. Look guys, if they look relaxed & happy to you, that's fine. I hope they truly are. But, since I can't speak sully, I can't be too sure, that's all :-D Does anyone know if Tom got home yet?


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## Yvonne G

My desert tortoises don't float.


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## Yellow Turtle

I like both the smallest ones color more.

Dean, it might be due to the water or camera angle, but don't you think pic no 1 and 2, especially no 1 is slightly pyramided?


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## theelectraco

Yellow Turtle said:


> I like both the smallest ones color more.
> 
> Dean, it might be due to the water or camera angle, but don't you think pic no 1 and 2, especially no 1 is slightly pyramided?



I also see some pyramiding starting.


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## animalfreak

Awe beautiful little torts! Are they swimming?!


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## DeanS

theelectraco said:


> Yellow Turtle said:
> 
> 
> 
> I like both the smallest ones color more.
> 
> Dean, it might be due to the water or camera angle, but don't you think pic no 1 and 2, especially no 1 is slightly pyramided?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I also see some pyramiding starting.
Click to expand...


Good eye...both of you! This is one of the great enigmas! All of mine and the other four of Tom's are perfectly smooth! The two I got from him are slightly pyramided. But, as I now employ the *CLOSED CHAMBERS* method...save for the few hours they spend outdoors running the yard, eating and soaking (for an hour or so)...I hope to curb that! STAY TUNED!


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## Kapidolo Farms

Rambo said:


> Sulcatas can swim?????THE HECK??????? thats news to me, i wonder if leopards can swim?



Leopards are good swimmers, even as adults. One more than one occasion when some areas had been flooded for one reason or another people report seeing leopards bobby around until they get a footing and walk out of the water. 

Aldabras and Galops have been found at sea, further than where visible land can be seen, and are OK, to an extent, they probably dehydrate before finding fresh water. To breath they just periscope their neck and head up. I further would think they could do this for a long time as long as the water surface was calm.

It's one of the ideas on how those guys got to their island homes in the first place.

Will


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## DesertGrandma

Well tomorrow my leopards will be trying to swim, haha. They love the water so why not??


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## Weda737

Awwww, I want a Sudan sully, Oh well, I love my baby and I'll just spoil him. On the topic of swimming though, I fill my bathtub up for him sometimes and the slant in it lets him soak or swim if he so chooses, and he does both, but usually settles down and splays out.


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## Yellow Turtle

DeanS said:


> Good eye...both of you! This is one of the great enigmas! All of mine and the other four of Tom's are perfectly smooth! The two I got from him are slightly pyramided. But, as I now employ the *CLOSED CHAMBERS* method...save for the few hours they spend outdoors running the yard, eating and soaking (for an hour or so)...I hope to curb that! STAY TUNED!



I'm sure you can correct it, but my question is why that happens? Since I remember Tom put his sudanese hatchlings in closed chamber as well, or I'm wrong?


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## Tom

Yellow Turtle said:


> DeanS said:
> 
> 
> 
> Good eye...both of you! This is one of the great enigmas! All of mine and the other four of Tom's are perfectly smooth! The two I got from him are slightly pyramided. But, as I now employ the *CLOSED CHAMBERS* method...save for the few hours they spend outdoors running the yard, eating and soaking (for an hour or so)...I hope to curb that! STAY TUNED!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sure you can correct it, but my question is why that happens? Since I remember Tom put his sudanese hatchlings in closed chamber as well, or I'm wrong?
Click to expand...


This is a can of worms that I tried not to open. Unfortunately another member opened it for me, tried to make it look like I was throwing someone under the proverbial bus, in an attempt to throw ME under the proverbial bus.

Here are the facts: Dean and I got 20 hatchlings that were "7-10" days old according to the breeder. Looking at their bellies and the state of their umbilical scars verified this to be accurate by my estimation.

All seemed perfect initially, but soon some started to quickly outpace the others, growth wise. Within a few months it was clear there was a problem. About a third were doing perfect, a third were mediocre and a third were not doing well at all.

I necropsied two of the ones that were doing poorly in an effort to discover the problem, explain the inconsistency, and help the remaining live ones. Necropsy revealed that the entire intestinal tract was lined with a "gray sandy sludge". Quote from my vet who opened them up. These babies had never been on sand. Knowing that sulcatas eat their incubation media as soon as they even pip in some cases, I incorrectly assumed the sludge was broken down vermiculite. The breeder who was dragged into the fray by the other forum member corrected me saying that he does not use vermiculite. He uses perlite and he leaves the babies in the incubator for about a week while they absorb their yolk sac. In my experience sulcata babies eat everything around them while they are absorbing their yolk sac, which is why I start mine on damp paper towels in a brooder box with greens and their egg shells to nibble on. So I was wrong about it being vermiculite. It was obviously perlite which actually made even more sense.

I cannot explain why a good diet and hydration did not push out the perlite. I cannot explain why some thrived and are doing excellent to this day, while others have done poorly.

The ones that were and still are thriving are all 500-600 grams now, and their shells are the best I have ever seen. These ones are only around 200 grams, growing slowly and slightly pyramiding. They have all been in the same 4x8' enclosure, with the same routine, same diet, same everything. This is just one example of why I say slow growth is not the answer to pyramiding and fast(er) growth is not a cause of pyramiding.

Initially this enclosure was divided with a board into two 4x8' enclosures. I started my own hatchlings on one side, and these Sudans on the other. 100% of my hatchlings thrived in the same way the best ones of the Sudan group have, and are still thriving today. I still have three of MY hatchlings and several others have been sold to people I keep in touch with and other forum members who report on their status from time to time. All of my own hatchlings that I started with brooder boxes initially and then into the other half of the same enclosure the Sudans were in, are comparable in size and smoothness to the best of the Sudan group. In fact the best Sudans are slightly bigger and smoother than the best of my own hatchlings. It was alluded to that the problem must somehow be my husbandry. I counter that this could not be the case for two reasons: 1. Dean offered different husbandry, but saw the exact same ratio of thrivers and non-thrivers. 2. 100% of my own hatchlings (several dozen over the course of the season) thrived and grew perfectly with the exact same husbandry, diet and conditions that the Sudans were in, except for their first week or two, where mine were in brooder boxes and not eating their incubation media.

My purpose in this post is to explain and share what I have learned thus far, and hopefully learn more. Questions and criticisms are welcome.


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## Thalatte

Is sudan a subspecies? How many subspecies of sulcatas are there? And what's the difference?


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## Tom

There is only one recognized species of sulcata and no subspecies. People who know the species well from various parts of its range comment that there are at least three geographically distinct "types". The one we are discussing here come from the country of Sudan in Africa. They are characterized by a very large size in adult males and a generally more rounded higher domed shell than the other types of sulcatas from other parts of the range.


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## Thalatte

Oh. Ok thanks.


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## DeanS

Yellow Turtle said:


> DeanS said:
> 
> 
> 
> Good eye...both of you! This is one of the great enigmas! All of mine and the other four of Tom's are perfectly smooth! The two I got from him are slightly pyramided. But, as I now employ the *CLOSED CHAMBERS* method...save for the few hours they spend outdoors running the yard, eating and soaking (for an hour or so)...I hope to curb that! STAY TUNED!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sure you can correct it, but my question is why that happens? Since I remember Tom put his sudanese hatchlings in closed chamber as well, or I'm wrong?
Click to expand...


I see it this way. Because I live in the extremely arid high desert, my tortoises would be spending 24/7 in *CLOSED CHAMBERS* until they were (at least) three years old...only out long enough to graze a little. Before I found this forum, I allowed my babies to run my yard for an hour or so before placing them in a kiddie pool with about 1.5" of water. Furthermore, I left the pool half in the sun, half in the shade. All the hatchlings I received had some degree of pyramiding. Obviously, the eight hours plus in this artificial environment helped considerably. But, I don't necessarily consider it the right way...it just worked for me...because of my environment. To back this up, look at the picture at the top right of page 43 in THE CRYING TORTOISE. They spent the night in screen top terrariums, with only a CHE. The room they were kept in at night was constantly around 80-85F with 50-75% RH. After I joined this Forum, I found Tom...and we clicked from the start. The first time I saw his set-up, I nearly flipped. But, it wasn't until he acquired his South African leopards that I truly saw the advances in tortoise husbandry. His closed chamber approach was truly without equal. Since then, there have been copycats all over the place, but he still has no peer! Then, he built his habitat for the Sudans...*UN-FU**ING-BELIEVABLE*! And, YES! All of his larger Sudans are FLAWLESS! Just as 4 of my 5 are flawless! Ironically, it's the middle three that show any signs of pyramiding...the two I acquired from Tom and the largest of mine are all in the 200-250 gram range...i.e. the first three pictures in this thread. The breeder has 100 breeding animals...or is it 100 breeding groups...so there could be a slight variation from one genetic strain to the next. But, those looking to attack Tom (you know who you are) for taking this hobby to the next level are so off base, you don't know!

For the record, this was supposed to be a fun thread...free of controversy (we have enough of those already). However, since it's taken this left turn, don't be discouraged from continuing down this path. This is how we *ALL* learn. Critiques (and compliments) welcome! Just be fair! Don't attack with unfounded theories! If you have a claim that's inconsistent with what's already been discussed...then be prepared to back it up...or remain silent!


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## RV's mom

sweet pics Dean


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## sibi

So Tom, is it true that sullies swim, no matter how big they are? Does Daisy still swim?


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## theelectraco

sibi said:


> So Tom, is it true that sullies swim, no matter how big they are? Does Daisy still swim?



Be careful, you may be joining us at the kiddie table


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## Tom

sibi said:


> So Tom, is it true that sullies swim, no matter how big they are? Does Daisy still swim?



Daisy was about 8" if I remember correctly the last time I tried. She's now around 16" and I just have not gotten around to trying it again. Every time there is a warm sunny day I either forget or I'm busy with other things. Don't worry. The theory WILL be tested and results posted.


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## Tony the tank

Well.. Back to the original post..

My leopards could swim even at 8" they did very well... But I doubt my adult sulcatas will float...I worry because every now and then one wanders into the pool house and sets off the alarm... I have watched them in person and on the camera go to the edge look in and quickly back away....anyone have any experience with adult sulcatas and swimming??


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## Mjdeisher

The great thing about good science, is that even if you come to the incorrect conclusion is that it will steer you in the direction of the right answer. While doing research for work or fun, you might believe the answer is one thing and then discover it's something completely different. If Tom was being ignorant he would of said the breeder lied, but Tom accepted that his original hypothesis was wrong and that it was a different substrate. End of story. From where I'm standing, sounds like good science to me. 


Anyways... I was under the impression tortoises couldn't swim. But makes sense I guess, they aren't a solid rock under their shells. There has to be some sort of equilibrium there. Lol.


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## cemmons12

Mjdeisher said:


> The great thing about good science, is that even if you come to the incorrect conclusion is that it will steer you in the direction of the right answer. While doing research for work or fun, you might believe the answer is one thing and then discover it's something completely different. If Tom was being ignorant he would of said the breeder lied, but Tom accepted that his original hypothesis was wrong and that it was a different substrate. End of story. From where I'm standing, sounds like good science to me.
> 
> 
> Anyways... I was under the impression tortoises couldn't swim. But makes sense I guess, they aren't a solid rock under their shells. There has to be some sort of equilibrium there. Lol.


I would love to see if Cooper can swim, but I am toooo big of a chicken! Lol! And as much as he is not a fan of his baths, that may make him hate them even more!


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## RedfootsRule

I believe it prevents anyone from being incorrect in the fact that the breeder didn't use vermiculite...How would it be vermiculite if the torts never came into contact with it? After, perlite is an "amorphous volcanic glass" so I can see how it would leave "gray, sandy sludge". Sorry, its pretty known me and Tom often disagree, but even I can see there is no reason to argue this...
Either way, they are pretty sulcatas, which I'm pretty sure was the POINT of this thread....


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## sibi

Well, I'm certainly satisfied with Tom's answer. Daisy probably can still swim even though it has been awhile. I don't know where I read it here, but I was under the impression that sullies can't swim once they become too heavy. I remember when my sullies were a few months old I put them in a tub to see if they could swim. I was amazed to see they did, although I saw my babies eyes bug out. I just figured they were stressed. I hadn't done it again, but this summer, I'm going to try it again. So, naturally, when I saw Dean's sultans, a couple of pics looked like they may have been stressed. But, in retrospect, if members don't see what I did, then I may be wrong. Anyway, I can't wait to see Daisy swim! Btw, Tom, I only have nice things to say about you. So, I'm not sure if there's a history that goes back with the other members who were trying to discredit you, but it's apparent that you have tons of friends here ready to take battle for you. Thanks for getting back to me on this. I really wanted to know.


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## N2TORTS

Dean~O .... Luv the shots! ......perfect for a new " Water Wing" infomercial ~


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## sibi

Oops...i called them sultans (they are princes to me, I guess that's what I was thinking, haha). I meant "SUDANS."


sibi said:


> Well, I'm certainly satisfied with Tom's answer. Daisy probably can still swim even though it has been awhile. I don't know where I read it here, but I was under the impression that sullies can't swim once they become too heavy. I remember when my sullies were a few months old I put them in a tub to see if they could swim. I was amazed to see they did, although I saw my babies eyes bug out. I just figured they were stressed. I hadn't done it again, but this summer, I'm going to try it again. So, naturally, when I saw Dean's sudans, a couple of pics looked like they may have been stressed. But, in retrospect, if members don't see what I did, then I may be wrong. Anyway, I can't wait to see Daisy swim! Btw, Tom, I only have nice things to say about you. So, I'm not sure if there's a history that goes back with the other members who were trying to discredit you, but it's apparent that you have tons of friends here ready to take battle for you. Thanks for getting back to me on this. I really wanted to know.


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## jaizei

Tom said:


> jaizei said:
> 
> 
> 
> I was curious about the shiny flecks! If the sludge is perlite, where are the flecks from!?!? If the breeder had never spoken up, you would have used the above as proof positive that it was vermiculite! After he said perlite, you shifted to that without missing a beat! I see the flaws in this type of thinking!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've already said I was wrong half a dozen times. It's obvious I was wrong. Do you just enjoy hearing it? That horse is dead man. Stop beating it. I made an incorrect assumption based on what most breeders commonly use. He didn't use vermiculite. My bad. The fact that he uses perlite actually made MORE sense. I don't see any problem with admitting I made an incorrect assumption and moving on with the obvious correct answer. I don't have any idea what the vet saw that was shiny. I said before that she didn't know what it was either. She described it to me. I asked if it could be vermiculite since that's what most people use and she said yes, it could be. Turns out my suggestion was wrong. Couldn't be vermiculite since he uses perlite. Perlite actually fits the description better... Why are we still talking about this? I'm done. Whatever your thoughts on the matter, the necropsied babies had a gray sandy sludge lining their intestine, and some thrived, while others did not. Whatever the sludge is composed of, I found the problem, which is a huge step forward.
Click to expand...


You can stop playing victim at anytime. It is not about you being wrong but about how you got there. You jumped to one conclusion and then leapt to another. Now the composition of the sludge doesn't matter? I thought that was the whole point. Hatchlings ingesting incubation medium. Which in this case was perlite. Which isn't really shiny. Which is one of the attributes the vet gave in describing something in the sludge.


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## Baoh

Silica, the primary component of perlite, is transparent. Not metallic in appearance. Aluminum oxide, the secondary component, is white. Not metallic in appearance. Sodium oxide, the tertiary component, becomes sodium hydroxide in solution if liberated in water, so would present no solid (and would not be metallic in appearance in that environment) to even visually observe. Potassium oxide, the quaternary component, will go a similar route as sodium oxide in that it will become potassium hydroxide if liberated in water, so would present no solid (and would not be metallic in appearance in that environment) to even visually observe. The other three common components (oxides of iron, magnesium, and calcium), which are present in only small relative quantities, are also not metallic in appearance. Digestive processes are not really going to chemically break perlite down anyway. Supposing you even managed (a chemically unlikely event) to dissolve some of the material in an acidic aqueous (gastric) environment at the internal temperature of a live tortoise, though, the resulting substances, as with the list above, would not be metallic in appearance.


Nice tortoises, though. I am a fan of Brad's Sudanese animals.


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## Yellow Turtle

Tom said:


> This is a can of worms that I tried not to open. Unfortunately another member opened it for me, tried to make it look like I was throwing someone under the proverbial bus, in an attempt to throw ME under the proverbial bus.



Aside of the facts and finding that are mentioned after those statements above, this question by me is not in any attempt to discredit anyone of his husbandry. I like closed chamber and have passed the information to several local people that I have a chat here. I hope to see it's done here in my country. Since I can't commit to provide all the closed chamber myself for now, if not I will for certain try it myself.

I've learnt a lot from this forum and intend to continue doing all the learning. Those pyramiding I saw, really makes me a bit surprised, and wants to know what has been happening to the torts. All this time I've seen very smooth shells from Tom, Deans and also Zamric using this method.

So those gray sandy sludge causing stunted growth and pyramiding even all those torts have been eating quite the same portion? How does it do, does it just simply block nutrition absorption of the food?


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## Yellow Turtle

DeanS said:


> For the record, this was supposed to be a fun thread...free of controversy (we have enough of those already). However, since it's taken this left turn, don't be discouraged from continuing down this path. This is how we *ALL* learn. Critiques (and compliments) welcome! Just be fair! Don't attack with unfounded theories! If you have a claim that's inconsistent with what's already been discussed...then be prepared to back it up...or remain silent!



Dean, this is fun thread and pictures. I tested all my torts for swimming sometime ago. And all of my torts can swim pretty well.

I don't think there is anymore need for back up theories and debates for pyramiding. If you don't mind, please update those 2 pyramided torts you've got, I'm interested to know their progress.


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## Tom

Baoh said:


> Silica, the primary component of perlite, is transparent. Not metallic in appearance. Aluminum oxide, the secondary component, is white. Not metallic in appearance. Sodium oxide, the tertiary component, becomes sodium hydroxide in solution if liberated in water, so would present no solid (and would not be metallic in appearance in that environment) to even visually observe. Potassium oxide, the quaternary component, will go a similar route as sodium oxide in that it will become potassium hydroxide if liberated in water, so would present no solid (and would not be metallic in appearance in that environment) to even visually observe. The other three common components (oxides of iron, magnesium, and calcium), which are present in only small relative quantities, are also not metallic in appearance. Digestive processes are not really going to chemically break perlite down anyway. Supposing you even managed (a chemically unlikely event) to dissolve some of the material in an acidic aqueous (gastric) environment at the internal temperature of a live tortoise, though, the resulting substances, as with the list above, would not be metallic in appearance.
> 
> 
> Nice tortoises, though. I am a fan of Brad's Sudanese animals.





When I say broken down I'm mean it in a physical sense, not a chemical one. If you take some perlite, squish it back and forth between your thumb and fingers, it "breaks down" into somewhat of a sandy powder. Add water, all sorts of different foods, and let it site for a few weeks in an intestinal tract and Ill make a guess that you'll end up with a gray sandy sludge.

Why are we hung up on the shiny bits? Maybe it was just light reflecting of the wetness or reflecting off of some mucus. Maybe she was just agreeing with my suggestion, since it didn't seem like it could be anything else at the time. Who knows? Again, if it wasn't perlite orchard grass or orchid bark, then what was it? Fresh grass, cactus pads, weeds, spring mix, and Mazuri aren't going to create a "gray sandy sludge".




Yellow Turtle said:


> Tom said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is a can of worms that I tried not to open. Unfortunately another member opened it for me, tried to make it look like I was throwing someone under the proverbial bus, in an attempt to throw ME under the proverbial bus.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Aside of the facts and finding that are mentioned after those statements above, this question by me is not in any attempt to discredit anyone of his husbandry. I like closed chamber and have passed the information to several local people that I have a chat here. I hope to see it's done here in my country. Since I can't commit to provide all the closed chamber myself for now, if not I will for certain try it myself.
> 
> I've learnt a lot from this forum and intend to continue doing all the learning. Those pyramiding I saw, really makes me a bit surprised, and wants to know what has been happening to the torts. All this time I've seen very smooth shells from Tom, Deans and also Zamric using this method.
> 
> So those gray sandy sludge causing stunted growth and pyramiding even all those torts have been eating quite the same portion? How does it do, does it just simply block nutrition absorption of the food?
Click to expand...


NOT referring to you yellow turtle. This happened a long time ago.


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## sibi

Hey Dean, the bet is on! Tom said that he hasn't put Daisy to swim in a while, but that he plans to soon. So, what say you? Will Daisy be able to swim? Btw, the above thing is very interesting. Thanks for sharing.


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## DeanS

Yellow Turtle said:


> Dean, this is fun thread and pictures. I tested all my torts for swimming sometime ago. And all of my torts can swim pretty well.
> 
> I don't think there is anymore need for back up theories and debates for pyramiding. If you don't mind, please update those 2 pyramided torts you've got, I'm interested to know their progress.



The first three pics are the ONLY Sudans that are pyramided. And, let me say, it is barely noticeable. The fact that they are in the water creates an illusion, making it look more advanced than it actually is...

What it really is is more like lumps...kind of like comparing a concrete driveway with an asphalt one...weird analogy, but that's the best I can come up with right now!

My three-year-olds, Climber and Jamie, look better than when I received them. At a month, they already had a slight degree of pyramiding, and even the breeder was impressed that they grew to this point with no further pyramiding! Here's a shot of them coming in for the night...you get a pretty good idea of their development. Only that initial 'baby scute' stands out at all...but as they grow into adults, I see that disappearing altogether! 

Climber is bringing up the rear and is 17" and weighs 26 lbs. His sister, Jamie, is 10" and weighs 11 lbs.


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## sibi

That's pretty amazing. I see what you mean about the lumps. Personally, I didn't see any pyramiding on the Sudan's. How could I? Did you ever see what a straight stick looks like in a glass of water? They look just beautiful.


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## mctlong

this is a fun thread with pictures of "swimming" sullys. Which, by the way Dean, are freakin' adorable!!!


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## Tony the tank

Ok.. Let's try this again.. Anyone ever see a lg Sulcata swimming?? ..or better yet any lg tortoise swimming...pics or basis of knowledge??

Thank you


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## cemmons12

Hey Dean, how old are Climber and Jamie now? Thanks!


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## Neal

DeanS said:


>



I like this pictograph.


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## Shannon and Jason

Dean your torts look great if I look really hard I can see slight lumps(the water pics are very deceiving to the eye) but nothing really noticeable........ before long won't even know it was ever there. 

I also want to say thanks to you guys for taking that left turn and educating the rest of us with the knowledge you all have gained from experience.


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## DeanS

Tony the tank said:


> Ok.. Let's try this again.. Anyone ever see a lg Sulcata swimming?? ..or better yet any lg tortoise swimming...pics or basis of knowledge??
> 
> Thank you



I saw a large yellow foot swimming on a NGW documentary...that was impressive!




cemmons12 said:


> Hey Dean, how old are Climber and Jamie now? Thanks!



Not quite 3.5 years! They didn't start growing until they were about 2 years...then Climber exploded! Jamie's grown a little slower but she's holding her own now!




Shannon and Jason said:


> Dean your torts look great if I look really hard I can see slight lumps(the water pics are very deceiving to the eye) but nothing really noticeable........ before long won't even know it was ever there.
> 
> I also want to say thanks to you guys for taking that left turn and educating the rest of us with the knowledge you all have gained from experience.



Thanks Shannon! You are right! There is barely anything going on there...and if I had waited to post this thread 6 months or so, nobody would've seen anything!

Second, all credit goes to Tom here! He and I were traversing the same path on how to raise tortoises. I was doing it wet from the start...and he had the humidity thing down to a fine art! Everything he's discovered should be the norm! All the haters should spend a day with him! Attitudes would definitely change at that point!


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## Kerryann

They are super cute


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## Yvonne G

But!!!! This is still no reason to have tortoises in a back yard that has an unfenced in-the-ground-swimming pool. Tortoises can't swim forever, and just like a dog that falls in the pool, will eventually tire and drown.


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## DeanS

sibi said:


> Hey Dean, the bet is on! Tom said that he hasn't put Daisy to swim in a while, but that he plans to soon. So, what say you? Will Daisy be able to swim? Btw, the above thing is very interesting. Thanks for sharing.



Having seen what a big girl Daisy is now? I say no chance! I know Tom has an ear-to-ear grin right now! If she (surface) swims...or even floats...Tom has free manual labor for a day! And seeing the early footprints of upcoming projects...we're talking huge projects!


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## cemmons12

DeanS said:


> Tony the tank said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ok.. Let's try this again.. Anyone ever see a lg Sulcata swimming?? ..or better yet any lg tortoise swimming...pics or basis of knowledge??
> 
> Thank you
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I saw a large yellow foot swimming on a NGW documentary...that was impressive!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cemmons12 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hey Dean, how old are Climber and Jamie now? Thanks!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Not quite 3.5 years! They didn't start growing until they were about 2 years...then Climber exploded! Jamie's grown a little slower but she's holding her own now!
> 
> 
> [qu
> ote='Shannon and Jason' pid='614671' dateline='1360185319']
> Dean your torts look great if I look really hard I can see slight lumps(the water pics are very deceiving to the eye) but nothing really noticeable........ before long won't even know it was ever there.
> 
> I also want to say thanks to you guys for taking that left turn and educating the rest of us with the knowledge you all have gained from experience.
Click to expand...





Thanks Shannon! You are right! There is barely anything going on there...and if I had waited to post this thread 6 months or so, nobody would've seen anything!

Second, all credit goes to Tom here! He and I were traversing the same path on how to raise tortoises. I was doing it wet from the start...and he had the humidity thing down to a fine art! Everything he's discovered should be the norm! All the haters should spend a day with him! Attitudes would definitely change at that point!


WOW! I knew they were older then Cooper but I didnt think they were that much older. I think they look fantastic! Time sure has flown by since I joined the forum!



[/quote]


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## Tom

Tony the tank said:


> Ok.. Let's try this again.. Anyone ever see a lg Sulcata swimming?? ..or better yet any lg tortoise swimming...pics or basis of knowledge??
> 
> Thank you



Sorry Hector. Didn't mean to ignore you the first time. I have not seen it for sure. A while back ATC posted pics of his adults hanging out in a pond. I could not tell from the picture if they were floating or touching bottom. Send him a PM and let us know.

We have more rain and a cold spell coming in the next few days, but I'll get my big ones in some deep water as soon as its a little warmer and we'll have a more definite answer then.


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## Tony the tank

Thanks Tom.. I believe I saw the same picture your referencing (with the sulcatas in a lg man made pond).. But they looked like they were standing.. 

If I remember correctly when things float the disperse there weight in water when they sink they disperse there volume..

So there must be a mathematical equation to determine buoyancy... Based on foot print and mass..

Any human abacuses here


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## Weda737

Dean, it's great to see pics of your sulcatas, I haven't been active on this forum for a while and I've been wondering how they were doing. They look so happy and healthy, and wow have they grown. Sorry if I'm off topic.


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## mctlong

Tony the tank said:


> Ok.. Let's try this again.. Anyone ever see a lg Sulcata swimming?? ..or better yet any lg tortoise swimming...pics or basis of knowledge??
> 
> Thank you



Have you seen this one yet? 
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-64967.html


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## marcy4hope

DeanS said:


>



wow!!! i love it! gorgeous!


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## Chinque

So cute! I love sudans, they're so cute when they swim!


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## sibi

I tend to agree with you. It has always been a concern of mine because if an inexperienced tort owner gets the impression that it's okay, and leaves their tort in a pool, the tort will drown if there's no way for him to get out. On the other hand, IF you put your tort in a pool to see him swim, but you remove him after a short while, it could be very enjoyable (not necessarily for the tort) to you. Afterall, it isn't natural for torts to swim, even if they can float! I know my torts don't know what I'm doing, or if they feel safe, and get real stressed. Is it because it's something unnatural for them? 



emysemys said:


> But!!!! This is still no reason to have tortoises in a back yard that has an unfenced in-the-ground-swimming pool. Tortoises can't swim forever, and just like a dog that falls in the pool, will eventually tire and drown.


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## biochemnerd808

I play 'sink or float?' with my kids... never thought of including my tortoises in the experiment! (probably still won't), but how fun to learn this fun fact.


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## cruiser12

Lol one has a bubble in his eye!


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## TortoiseBoy1999

They look like water Turtles!  They look very comfortable to me


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## thereptileenthusiast

Aldabra swimming video.

http://www.arkive.org/aldabra-giant-tortoise/geochelone-gigantea/video-06b.html


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## RuthJanice

Yep they look very happy to me as well.... they are very cute.


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## DeanS

thereptileenthusiast said:


> Aldabra swimming video.
> 
> http://www.arkive.org/aldabra-giant-tortoise/geochelone-gigantea/video-06b.html



Very cool!


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