# Are tortoises a wise investment



## Redfootedboxturtles (Sep 18, 2008)

Are tortoises a good investment ? With all types of crazy things going on with our economy is it a wise investment to purchase expensive tortoises? I am of course speaking of buying animals to breed and sell babies. No buying a pet or two.


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## Laura (Sep 18, 2008)

My first thought: you dont get animals and breed them to make money. That is the wrong reason.. To improve or keep a species alive and well is the reason. If you do happen to make money selling babies. Congrats! 
But you see the $$$ greedy people in other animals and the animal just suffer from lack of care. 
Not always.. but a large majority. There are right reasons and wrong reasons to breed.. Enjoy what you do and do it right. 
But that is my two cents worth without much thought..:shy:
That said.. Dont anyone take it personally. It isnt aimed at anyone. 
As for the timing... you might find a good buy now.. or not.. but lots of people also dont have the extra money to spend on it right now either.. Great time to buy a house, IF you have money to do so.. if not.. its not.


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## Redfootedboxturtles (Sep 18, 2008)

Laura you kind of missed the point of the topic. What you are talking about is a whole other debate. But thank you for posting.


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## Yvonne G (Sep 18, 2008)

I don't think spending money on an expensive tortoise is a good investment. They don't appreciate like real estate. Also, they tend to die. You have to feed it and provide the proper environment for it, all costing more money to add to your initial outlay of $$$. It takes most tortoises quite a few years to reach breeding age, and during those non-productive years you are putting money into one end and getting poop out the other end. After 15 or 20 or more years, if you should happen to start raising babies, you have to feed them and keep them alive until you can find a buyer, and while you are keeping them, you are spending money building them the proper environment and feeding them. Now you have to find the market for your babies. I had a heck of a time finding buyers for my leopard babies. I couldn't sell a single one here in my own city. All of them went out of state. I can't say I made any money on the deal as it all went back into the operation. 

Far as I'm concerned, the only reason to buy a tortoise is to be able to enjoy the animal. There isn't any money in it unless you have a very large breeding operation. Then you've lost the one-on-one time with your pet and it is no longer a pet, but a commodity.

Yvonne


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## egyptiandan (Sep 18, 2008)

I think Yvonne covered it very well , but if it was missed. Tortoises are NOT a good investment.  The prices of most tortoises has fallen recently. Thats say you could afford, say an adult pair of Radiated tortoises, a fairly high end tortoise. You would have to set them up right. Than getting them to breed and lay eggs for you. Okay you've done that. With these tortoises you've limited your market to in state people if you don't have a permit, that's say you do have a permit. That gives you out of state sales and in state sales. Now you have to find people with $1,000 burning a hole in their pocket, in this economy, looking to buy a tortoise. They are few and far between and there are already established breeders that will likely get the business first.
So all in all not the place to invest money.

Danny


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## Madkins007 (Sep 18, 2008)

As for making money breeding them... with the slow growth rate, fairly small nest sizes, etc. the old saying is still true- "breed snakes for money and tortoises for fun".


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## agiletorts (Sep 19, 2008)

Considering mortality rate, time to invest for proper care, rising energy costs, rising food costs and uncertainty in selling prices later in the future, among other things, why bother investing in tortoise? If I sit down and think more I probably could come up with 10 other risks, so I'm not sure if the overall risk is smaller than the risk in certain financial products existed in the market now. Just have tortoise for fun and don't calculate the $.


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## Yvonne G (Sep 19, 2008)

Here's an example of what I meant when I said tortoises don't appreciate like real estate:

Many years ago when Sulcatas were still a bit rare you had to pay about $1500 to $2000 for an adult tortoise. They breed like crazy and you could have 50 or 100 babies in a clutch, two or three times a year. In those days you could get $150 or $200 apiece for the babies. 

Now-a-days you can buy an adult Sulcata for around $200 and babies for under $50. But its really hard to find buyers for them because if you go to a rescue you can get the animal for free.

Another example is my Manouria. Eleven years or so ago I had 18 intergrade babies that I sold for $200 apiece. I haven't been able to raise any babies since that time...and this year was lucky to have just one baby, which I'll keep because its the only one. This is not a good way to invest your money. It takes too long to see any kind of a return, and if you keep good records you'll see that the minus column spends all the money you put into the plus column!!

Yvonne


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## Itort (Sep 19, 2008)

Investment? As has been pointed out there is no money in breeding torts. Long time to maturity, small clutch size, expense of maintenance, and limited market. If you wish to breed herps for money go with mid size snakes, bearded dragons, or the various geckos. I keep and breed my herps as a an avocation and keep ones that I enjoy as pets. If I wanted to make money, I'd get rid torts and blue tongues (one clutch a year with 6 month pregnancy for small litter).


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## drgnfly2265 (Sep 20, 2008)

I wouldn't think that breeding and selling torts would be a good investment for money like everyone has stated. But I do believe that they are a wonderful investment as a part of a family. At our house now it is just me and my husband. But when my husband isn't there, I have my sulcata to keep me company 

___________________________________________________________

Jamie

1 Sulcata (Bowser)

www.myspace.com/bowsertortoise


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## oswego tort lover (Sep 20, 2008)

well i disagree it depends on the species. buy a leopard for $125 keep it healthy and growing for 3yrs its, around 5 inchs its worth $350-500,on kindsnake.food can be gotten free from your local grocery store (produce dept) summer free too . my leopard makes me bout $3000.00- 5000.00 tax free each and every year the last 14 yrs. i see dan picked a tort thats hes correct about selling but im pretty sure he making mony on selling torts as well as nerd and doug. torts can be a good ivestment as well as avocation .i let all my buyers know that this tort kept healthy is worth more as it grows. .........ed


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## Redfoot NERD (Sep 20, 2008)

oswego tort lover said:


> well i disagree it depends on the species. buy a leopard for $125 keep it healthy and growing for 3yrs its, around 5 inchs its worth $350-500,on kindsnake.food can be gotten free from your local grocery store (produce dept) summer free too . my leopard makes me bout $3000.00- 5000.00 tax free each and every year the last 14 yrs. i see dan picked a tort thats hes correct about selling but im pretty sure he making mony on selling torts as well as nerd and doug. torts can be a good ivestment as well as avocation .i let all my buyers know that this tort kept healthy is worth more as it grows. .........ed



You can always tell those that have.. and those that haven't - willing to endure and learn! [ it's like anything else.. paying the price ]

You're right.. you know Danny and Doug and I and others have had their torts "pay for themselves" over the years. Anyone who denies it will lie about other things as well........... 

NERD


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## sushisurf13 (Sep 22, 2008)

I dont think that any animal should be purchased with breeding in mind. They should be pets first and foremost, then baby makers (maybe).
I dont think investing in torts for profit is very wise at all. Its takes many years for the adults to become ready or you will buy a "proven pair" with is very expensive. Then you have 10 eggs that need to incubated and cared for. Then they hatch and become little poop factories like their parents. Then you have to find a market for them. I think that you MIGHT break even eventually. All the while you are paying for greens and getting poop. Wow. Now, if we could only find a market for tortoise poop, then we'd all be rich!!!


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## oswego tort lover (Sep 22, 2008)

hello eric, i find your arguement specious and certainly very very full of poop lol. by the way tortoise pooo degrades into a nice fertializer for the herb garden. ...............ed


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## sushisurf13 (Sep 22, 2008)

If only someone would buy it.....




oswego tort lover said:


> hello eric, i find your arguement specious and certainly very very full of poop lol. by the way tortoise pooo degrades into a nice fertializer for the herb garden. ...............ed


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## davidsmith (Sep 26, 2008)

ItÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s quite expensive and time consuming. We have to fulfill all the factors like providing the right heat, food, humidity and lighting etc.
But of course you can start your investment with a 'Beginner' species that are generally cheaper and easier to care.


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## Redfoot NERD (Sep 26, 2008)

Laura said:


> My first thought: you dont get animals and breed them to make money. That is the wrong reason.. To improve or keep a species alive and well is the reason. If you do happen to make money selling babies. Congrats!
> But you see the $$$ greedy people in other animals and the animal just suffer from lack of care.
> Not always.. but a large majority. There are right reasons and wrong reasons to breed.. Enjoy what you do and do it right.
> But that is my two cents worth without much thought..:shy:
> ...



Laura this is a good time to buy anything when you have the $$$$ - what do you really think this is all about?

NERD



davidsmith said:


> ItÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s quite expensive and time consuming. We have to fulfill all the factors like providing the right heat, food, humidity and lighting etc.
> But of course you can start your investment with a 'Beginner' species that are generally cheaper and easier to care.



David only things that DON'T fulfill a purpose are expensive! 

You have to fulfill all of the factors you mentioned when keeping a tortoise anyway.. [ that's the most frustrating ( at times ) thing.. too many think they can just push a button and their tortoise is taken care of - *WRONG!!!* ] and none are any more difficult to care for than any other.. just different sometimes. So where is the expense?

NERD


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## Jacqui (Sep 26, 2008)

I think it can be just as wise of a long term investment as anything else. I have a little bit of money in what folks would term a wiser investment then torts and yet am seeing those stocks, bonds, ect.., either making little money or in some cases losing money each quarter. That's part of life. You have to ride the ups and downs and hope you get off at the right moment. If you can afford to lose the money, invest in whatever gamble you want to take.

I never thought of my torts as investments. To me they are pleasures. However thinking about it, I guess they deep down are investments too. One thing for sure, unlike my other investments (except maybe for land) they are the only ones that give me any pleasure and enjoyment, any sense of worth. All those wonderful feel good emotions that money alone can't buy. Seems looking at it that way, they are also the only investments really paying me great dividends. 

So after some thinking, I am going to side with torts being great investments if you want investments that you have to work hands on with, keep taking additional funds (and time) to manage, but can return you so much more then just money. Just remember they are high risk investments both in terms on money and emotions.


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## Redfoot NERD (Sep 26, 2008)

WELL.. ONCE AGAIN.. WE [ BREEDERS ] DO IT FOR FUN AND PROFIT! OTHERWISE WE WOULDN'T DO IT [ DON'T LET THEM LIE TO YOU.. AGAIN ].

AND.. IT CAN BE VERY TIME CONSUMING SO IT IS SOMETHING [ LIKE ANYTHING ELSE ] THAT WE HAVE TO WORK AT. THE APPARENT SECRET IS GETTING THEM SET-UP SO IT TAKES LESS TIME AND OVERHEAD COST TO MAINTAIN THEM.. AND MORE TIME TO "INTERACT" WITH THEM. 

JUST BECAUSE SOME HAVEN'T HAD SUCCESS BREEDING DOESN'T MEAN ANYTHING OTHER THAN 'SOMETHING WASN'T RIGHT' IN THE EQUATION.

THAT WAS SIMPLE ENOUGH.. WASN'T IT?

Terry K


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## jasso2 (Sep 30, 2008)

i like tortoises


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## oswego tort lover (Oct 1, 2008)

me too.......


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## Ozric (Oct 3, 2008)

I have a friend in Germany who has Moroccan tortoises. She has allowed them to breed twice. She does not let them breed most years because there are not enough people who are willing/able to provide adequately for them in terms of the environment they need. She doesn't want to breed animals that would die. 

I might do a little Western Hermann breeding one day, but already I worry about finding people who would go to the expense and trouble to keep one warm enough, provide outside facilities so that it can have decent quality of life. Lots of people I know are interested in a tortoise, but when I tell them what I do to replicate the mediterranean in Scotland its obvious they think I'm mad. Maybe there is money to be made breeding tortoises - but not here. Here they make money importing them cheap from eastern europe and selling them with false information. A lot of them don't make it.


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## gtm (Oct 4, 2008)

Over here in the UK there is'nt the avaliability you have in the States. If you could successfully breed more unusual tortoises - ie Golden Greeks, Radiated, Egyptians then you could make.

I recently saw an ad for egyptian hatchlings for Ã‚Â£1100 ($2000) each. It is possible to make money


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## Redfoot NERD (Oct 4, 2008)

egyptiandan said:


> I think Yvonne covered it very well , but if it was missed. Tortoises are NOT a good investment.  The prices of most tortoises has fallen recently. Thats say you could afford, say an adult pair of Radiated tortoises, a fairly high end tortoise. You would have to set them up right. Than getting them to breed and lay eggs for you. Okay you've done that. With these tortoises you've limited your market to in state people if you don't have a permit, that's say you do have a permit. That gives you out of state sales and in state sales. Now you have to find people with $1,000 burning a hole in their pocket, in this economy, looking to buy a tortoise. They are few and far between and there are already established breeders that will likely get the business first.
> So all in all not the place to invest money.
> 
> Danny



Nowhere did anyone suggest or imply that Vince was asking about high-dollar [ *endangered* ] tortoises. Those [ obviously ] are not good investments.. bad analogy ( example ).

Send me all of yours Danny and I'll show you how to make money at it. Either you're not doing something right.. [ and we know you are ] or you're not being straight with us. HUH?

Terry K


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## Yvonne G (Oct 4, 2008)

Redfoot NERD said:


> Send me all of yours Danny and I'll show you how to make money at it. Either you're not doing something right.. [ and we know you are ] or you're not being straight with us. HUH?
> 
> Terry K



I don't think anyone would disagree that there is money to be made if you work at it and conditions are right, but the questions was, "Are tortoises a WISE investment?" My answer still stands: No tortoises are NOT a WISE investment.

Yvonne


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## egyptiandan (Oct 4, 2008)

Terry your not reading again  Here is Vince's first post

Are tortoises a good investment ? With all types of crazy things going on with our economy is it a wise investment to purchase *expensive* tortoises? I am of course speaking of buying animals to breed and sell babies. No buying a pet or two. 

I hate to burst your bubble, but I don't make any money selling tortoises. Just for the heck of it I figured out roughly what I spend monthly. This doesn't include new lights, containers, new pens outside or anything else that needs replacing. I spend $850 a month on the tortoises, not including the box turtles 

I still have tortoises from last year for sale, who I will never make money on. I'm trying to get $80 each for them and they aren't selling. I easily have $400 each into them if not more.

The Spider tortoise hatchlings I have been selling aren't mine and I only make a very small amout of each sale. I do it to help a friend who doesn't have the time to deal with the public.

I'd rather send you my bills than my tortoises, Terry 

Danny


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## Redfoot NERD (Oct 4, 2008)

Yes Yvonne [ like anything ] you have to "work at it".. hmmm(?). And we can hope that things will change soon.. so the "conditions are right" - again.

"When your out-go exceeds your income.. then your upkeep becomes your downfall". I would change [ something? ] things if I had that kind of an upkeep bill Danny. 

Somewhere between a $50 sulcata and an expensive tortoise [ not endangered ] is a "wise" investment.. providing you are able and willing to do what it takes to make it profitable. 

Ya'all are making excuses for not making it profitable.. maybe?

Terry K


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## egyptiandan (Oct 4, 2008)

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm change things. The only 2 things I can think of changing are getting rid of the tortoises I seem to be passionate about and/or getting tortoises that are going to get me more money per hatchling.
Where I am I am still going to have to have any tortoise inside at least 8 to 9 months out of the year, which will eat into any "profit" I might make and I do mean eat. 
I never got into having turtles or tortoises to make a profit. I would of course love them to pay for themselves, but it's not going to make me throw in the towel and say no more tortoises if they don't.
I get more satisfaction out of what I do with the tortoises and turtles, than anything else in my life (except for Kelly xxxxxxxxxxx). That is all the "profit" I'll ever need. 

Danny


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## Yvonne G (Oct 4, 2008)

I could conceivably sell (if I had them, that is, and if I could find a market for them) maybe 60 Burmese Mt. and Forest tortoises a year. I might be able to get $200 apiece for them ($12,000). Since I spend about $120 a week to feed the tortoises and about $500 a month for the electricity to keep them alive and about $200 a month for the water to keep the rain forest growing (not including the lumber or supplies to reinforce habitats that degrade), there just isn't any way to make a profit in it. And these are my favorite tortoise. Are you saying that I should get rid of my favorites and invest in a tortoise that sells better and is more prolific? That's not why I have tortoises. I have them because I really like and enjoy them. I don't have redfoots because I'm not that fond of them. I adopted out most of my leopards because I didn't have a market for the babies and ended up selling the last few for only $50 apiece. And the leopards aren't as much enjoyment as the Burmese or box turtles. I'm a retired Telephone Engineer, living on Social Security and a pension and all my "spare" money goes into my tortoises...because I really, really enjoy them! If I HAD to make money on them, and in order to make money, had to invest in a specie that I wasn't that fond of, it would take the enjoyment out of it.

Yvonne


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## oswego tort lover (Oct 4, 2008)

$850.00 a month $120.00 to feed $500.00 electric $200.00 for water?? wow now i can see why you dont at least keep even.food can be had FREE from your local grocery store, its called trim from the produce people, and thats in the winter.your yard or local empty lot can provide graze in the warm months .i guess its where you live that effects husbandry costs. if i had the costs claimed above i sure would change things around. id have to. i use an extra room to house my torts in the winter here . i would heat this room any ways as its part of the house. i guess its good i keep leopards. they do support my other species expensives. yes i really like leopards. dan do you live in one of our metro areas and your rent is sky hi, and why can they be outside only 3 or 4 months a year. i wonder if further dialoge is needed to help members lower expensives....no one should be spending all their spare monies on animal husbandry. its not rational........ed


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## Redfoot NERD (Oct 4, 2008)

Yvonne and Danny your 'personal' choices are fine.. [ I too have conditions to overcome where I live also ] but have nothing to do with the answer to the Q?.

When someone is *able* and *willing* to do what it takes to make it profitable.. [ financially ].. it is profitable.

Vince.. as an example.. lives where the "only" overhead is feeding.. and he can 'grow' most of that. So with wise management and marketing strategy.. he could make "tortoises a wise investment".

Terry K



oswego tort lover said:


> $850.00 a month $120.00 to feed $500.00 electric $200.00 for water?? wow now i can see why you dont at least keep even.food can be had FREE from your local grocery store, its called trim from the produce people, and thats in the winter.your yard or local empty lot can provide graze in the warm months .i guess its where you live that effects husbandry costs. if i had the costs claimed above i sure would change things around. id have to. i use an extra room to house my torts in the winter here . i would heat this room any ways as its part of the house. i guess its good i keep leopards. they do support my other species expensives. yes i really like leopards. dan do you live in one of our metro areas and your rent is sky hi, and why can they be outside only 3 or 4 months a year. i wonder if further dialoge is needed to help members lower expensives....no one should be spending all their spare monies on animal husbandry. its not rational........ed







.. ed

We've mentioned some dialogue on how to lower expenses.. haven't we?

tek


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## stells (Oct 5, 2008)

I find it very sad that anyone would think of any animal as an investment.

If you are passionate about something... making money shouldn't come into it..

I guess greed and the want to be the best just overwhelms some people..

I have no breeders so am already working on a loss... if i never had breeding tortoises it wouldn't matter to me... because i love the hobby.

This thread is just pointing out those that are passionate and those that are greedy 

Only being able to keep them out for 3-4 months of the year would have something to do with the weather.

I'm in the UK, my tortoises can only be out between May and late September and even that was pushing it this year. The climate is changing and the summers here are getting to be very wet.



oswego tort lover said:


> $850.00 a month $120.00 to feed $500.00 electric $200.00 for water?? wow now i can see why you dont at least keep even.food can be had FREE from your local grocery store, its called trim from the produce people, and thats in the winter.your yard or local empty lot can provide graze in the warm months .i guess its where you live that effects husbandry costs. if i had the costs claimed above i sure would change things around. id have to. i use an extra room to house my torts in the winter here . i would heat this room any ways as its part of the house. i guess its good i keep leopards. they do support my other species expensives. yes i really like leopards. dan do you live in one of our metro areas and your rent is sky hi, and why can they be outside only 3 or 4 months a year. i wonder if further dialoge is needed to help members lower expensives....no one should be spending all their spare monies on animal husbandry. its not rational........ed


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## Yvonne G (Oct 5, 2008)

oswego tort lover said:


> $850.00 a month $120.00 to feed $500.00 electric $200.00 for water?? wow now i can see why you dont at least keep even.food can be had FREE from your local grocery store, its called trim from the produce people, and thats in the winter.your yard or local empty lot can provide graze in the warm months .i guess its where you live that effects husbandry costs. ......ed



The type of tortoises I keep eat tropical plants. I have tropicals planted in their enclosure, but I don't live in a tropical climate, so the plants freeze every winter and have to be fenced off in the spring to allow them to re-grow. It was my choice to keep this kind of tortoise in this climate so I'm not complaining about the $$ I spend to keep them alive and healthy, I was only trying to make a point. 

Yvonne


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## Yvonne G (Oct 5, 2008)

I was thinking about this question as I picked up poop this a.m. and I want to frame a new response:

I don't consider the money I've spent on my tortoises as an investment because I'll more than likely NEVER see a $$ return on that money. However I DO have something invested in my tortoises, and that is "time" and "energy." I receive a return on that investment every day...10-fold!! I get so much pleasure and enjoyment out of my turtles and tortoises, that I will continue to invest time and energy into them for as long as I am able. And I will continue to see a return on that investment! I get great satisfaction in knowing that someday I may be able to add to the data-base on breeding the Manouria species. And, if my Aldabran tortoises turn out to be a pair, like I think they are, then someday I will have the satisfaction in maybe seeing that I have helped that giant in the reproduction game. 

So, YES, tortoises are a great investment, if you are only considering the time and energy you spend on them!

Yvonne


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## egyptiandan (Oct 5, 2008)

No Ed I don't live in the city, I live in the country. None of that money was rent. They are outside only that amount of time because it's to cold, either at night or during the day to have them out.
With Testudo I basicly have to have everyone seperate inside, so everyone has their own basking lamps and lights.
Grocery stores here now don't do trim as the greens come sealed in a plastic bag. Whatever might be free usually goes to local soup kitchens, so I've never been able to get "free" food from the grocery stores.
I do pick weeds when I can. It takes 6 plastic grocery bags full of weeds to feed everyone here. That usually takes me 3 to 4 hours to do that. I don't often have that much time and there aren't many places that I can get that many weeds. There are no vacant lots in the town I live in.
So where can I save money Ed

Danny


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## oswego tort lover (Oct 5, 2008)

dan do you mean that there isnt any stores that sell fresh produce in town? and yes that much time spent on finding and gathering weed isnt productive or fun i bet. the store i get my produce from also gives to food pantries so i need to cultivate relationships with produce managers who ive gotten to know over the years. they have saved me the expensives some others have. great people. still dan where can you save mony? it would seem that with the mony your spending now your headed toward not being able to keep them all. you might need to cut back the herd. i agree that keeping tortoies is time and energy well spent even if theres no mony to be made. im just glad its working for me. at least right now. as far as one who claims sadness about animals being investments or that passion and profit shouldnt mix, well, i can see dans trying to make mony and at least get something back on all his expensives good for him thats what we do in the new world.i bet you dont call him names. perhaps your passion for the man sharpens your ...voice. ill bet when you do have breeding tortoies you will like to make some mony back.experience is the greatist teacher. i can see you will profit. ..............ed


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## stells (Oct 6, 2008)

Don't make assumptions about me, its exactly people with this attitude that puts me off breeding altogether.. i won't be "marketing" my animals i can asure you of that. Myself and Danny have spoken about this topic, do you really think he will ever be able to make back money with all the years he has been keeping and the amount of tortoises he has?? its never going to happen, but thats not a worry because of his passion for these creatures so don't even try at twisting my words.

I find it extremely rude that Danny has so far been told to send his tortoises elsewhere so someone can show him how to make money on them and then be told he should cut back.. i haven't seen Danny say anywhere that he can't afford the animals and needs to cut back, the only reason the cost came up was because of this thread and because people assume to much.

If your tortoises stop paying for themselves and making this so called profit, will you be making cut backs on yours??


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## Yvonne G (Oct 6, 2008)

Within 5 miles of my home there is a Von's and a Savemart. The produce manager at Von's told me that he saves his trimmings for someone who has spoken for them prior to me asking. The Savemart turns their trimmings back to the home office where they turn it into compost, which they sell at the store. So trimmings aren't an option for me.

Yvonne


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## Redfootedboxturtles (Oct 8, 2008)

I have been absent from my own thread for so long I had to take some time and catch up on the discussion. 
I wanted to touch on what stells said that it would be greedy to want to make a profit from tortoises. I love tortoises, I lover caring for them and adopting them. I think its absurd to suggest its greedy for wanted to make a profit just by working with animals that you are passionate about. That's like saying just because 
you love doing something you should not do if professionally. I believe its the exact opposite of that. 
Why would I invest my money in things I dont really care about instead of something I am passionate about? 

Other then that I am loving the debate. 

My cost are extremely low. I do both things Ed and Terry spoke of. I have established relationships with small produce markets. I have boxes of bell peppers in the fridge as we speak. I grow food plants. I have little to no cost for food. I have a well for water. I am savvy with enclosure construction. I own over 50 tortoises. 

So lets change the question a little bit. Under these conditions, would it be wise for me to invest lets say 5,000 in a breeding group of lets say elongated tortoises. Would it be unreasonable to assume that long term as an investment I would see a return on my investment?


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## gummybearpoop (Oct 8, 2008)

I have read many times that tortoises and turtles are not "investment" animals. Tortoises usually need to be at least 5-10 years old (depending on species), if not more, to breed. Many people breed snakes to help pay for the tortoise bills. 

Though animals should not be looked at as investments, it's a sad fact. Cattle are raised as an investment for money and food.

To me, tortoises are a non-monetary investment. I am investing in having some cool and great pets for a looong time. It's pretty neat to think that I have some pets that can outlive me. Tortoises teach us to take life easy and sometimes we just need to take our time.


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## Redfoot NERD (Oct 8, 2008)

Since there is such controversy about WC.. where would you get your *"PETS"* if it weren't for breeders????? Aren't we being a little "self-righteous" when it comes to profit? Not all breeders are greedy.. in fact the reasons I decided to make my 'passion' into a business - 

1) the greedy ones who don't care about the tortoises.. so they sell/ship too-young and sick animals.. and you come to me/and others for help. [ Have we not offered our help.. even tho you bought from someone else? ]

2) the out-dated "paint-all-tortoises-with-the-same-brush" so-called caresheets out there.. so you come to me/and others for help. [ to try to "undo" what has been done as a result ]

And I'm glad.. is anyone else?

Nerd


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## stells (Oct 8, 2008)

I have friends who are breeders so i am not against i think you will find i said some attitudes put me off breeding.

That attitude being that just because someone has come on here and said they are not getting a profit from this, then they must be lying.. how rude is that?? 

How some people have posted things makes it sound like they aren't going to be passionate unless the animal pays for itself.. so what if they don't??... do those animals then get discarded

If you are a business does that not open you up to all kind of laws to obide and taxes to pay??

Some breeders i know personally would rather give away a hatchling or two if they know the home that its going to is a good one rather than take the money and the tortoise land up in a lower quality home

If you are going to be getting more "expensive" tortoises are you going to check out every single home they go to and make sure they have researched the species and what care is needed esp. if we are talking a more specialised species.

Yes i probably will breed tortoises in the future, but as the only adult pair i have are both hard to match males, and the rest range from a few months old up to 5 years old i have a while to wait yet and by that time i will be well out of pocket if we have to talk money.


Terry sorry your last post made no sense to me whatsoever...


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## egyptiandan (Oct 8, 2008)

I'll be glad to run with your example Vince  Lets say for the $5,000 you get 10 animals, 3 males and 7 females. It's good your in Florida Vince as you'd need to have all the males seperate. The females, with a big enough enclosure, should be fine, but no guarantees. 
Now for the breeding, Elongated tortoises are extremely violent breeders, so there will be vet visits for some of the females. Most likely a few every year. Than eggs, females usually average 3 eggs per clutch and 2 to 3 clutches a year. This is once they have settled in. Also all female in a large group may not lay every year.
Lets say you get 4 females to double clutch and they lay 5 eggs each (a 3 and a 2 egg clutch). That makes 20 eggs. You have an 80% fertility rate, 16 eggs fertile. You have a great hatch rate and hatch 15 eggs.
Right now hatchlings are running about $100 each and don't seem to be in high demand, so you sell 10 this year.
Thats $1,000., you have to hold onto the 5 till next year. If you have a better year next year and get 20 hatchlings. You will now have to sell 25 in a year. Maybe you have a better year and sell 15, leaving you with 10.
It could get over whelming really quickly and you have to wholesale them to make room. You will be getting maybe $50 each if you do.
So it's possible to get your money back, be quicker for you Vince with little overhead. This is barring losing females for any number of reasons, egg binding being one.

Danny


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## Yvonne G (Oct 8, 2008)

I didn't think we were talking about people who breed tortoises for a living. The original question was something to the effect of will I make money if I breed my tortoises? And I think the majority of people who breed tortoises do not make money. When I had leopards, I had 4 females and two males. I had three incubators full of leopard eggs. And I had about a 90% hatch rate. I had so many babies they were "coming out my ears!!" I had a real hard time finding buyers. I sold a few to folks here on the forum, but absolutely NONE to anyone here in my city or my geographical area. And the classified ads I placed came to over $100 over time. So, I bred tortoises. A popular breed of tortoise. But there is no way I would have been able to make any money at it. People are not breaking down doors to buy the end product, and that's the name of the game in you are going to make money. I even sent about 25 leopard babies to a friend back east who thought he would be better able to find buyers for them. He had them for almost a year, selling one here and one there. 

If you want to make money at it, and I hesitate to say this out loud, get a pair of Sulcata. Your female will have sometimes 3 or 4 clutches per year with around 25 or 50 eggs per clutch. Find an outlet overseas, say, Japan. They will take as many babies as you can hatch. 

There probably is money to be made, but the average Joe or Susie Cream Cheese, who has a pair of any kind of tortoise, will not make money at it...but they will get quite a bit of enjoyment out of the wonders of nature, watching the egg laying process, the hatching and caring for the babies.

Yvonne


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## terryo (Oct 8, 2008)

Redfoot NERD said:


> Since there is such controversy about WC.. where would you get your *"PETS"* if it weren't for breeders????? Aren't we being a little "self-righteous" when it comes to profit? Not all breeders are greedy.. in fact the reasons I decided to make my 'passion' into a business -
> 
> 1) the greedy ones who don't care about the tortoises.. so they sell/ship too-young and sick animals.. and you come to me/and others for help. [ Have we not offered our help.. even tho you bought from someone else? ]
> 
> ...



I have nothing to add about breeding tortoises, as I only have one, for a pet nothing more, but find this thread very interesting.....but....Nerd, what are you talking about? You don't seem to be making any sense with this post.


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## spikethebest (Oct 9, 2008)

a little off topic, my 401K has dropped 20% in the past 2 weeks, so yes, i think tortoises are wise investments. they are worth whatever someone is willing to pay for them, and not dependent on consumer confidence, greed, corporate america, bailouts, presidental elections, the american media, or inflation.


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## Redfootedboxturtles (Oct 11, 2008)

Thanks for that run down danny. (ps if you ever see any for 50 bucks let me know ! ) 

I like what spikesthebest said (sorry I dont know your name) 401k's are dropping, stocks are dropping, realistate is droping but it seems tortoises are the same price (for the most part) as a couple years ago. 

The question came up becasue I had saved money and wanted to invest in somthing rather then looking at a number on a bank statement.


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## Marla (Oct 15, 2008)

If a program is correctly set up, breeding could be a wise investment..The only problem you will face is age..To really understand and care for these wonderful animals takes years of living with them....studing them in their habitat and understanding the diseases that face each one in different ways...I suggest investing time in educating yourself in the field and then hope all goes right in the breeding area...I know of only one successful breeder in Arizona..there are some that follow, but no one tops Richard Fifes breeding program..25 years ago he was just touching ground and it took him years till he created Ivory Tortoises...He truly worked his way to the top...It took years...If you believe in breeding for money with tortoises then I suggest you not look for a quick dollar, start young and don't give up....Its a slow process....Now a tortoise broker is another story all together...


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## Redfootedboxturtles (Nov 12, 2008)

Nah I woundnt want to broker animals. I am a hobbyist pure and simple. I would however love to breed my tortoises and make some money from selling babies. I think captive breeding in one of the high points of our joyful hobby. A misconception about the issue of investment like marla suggested when she said quick dollar I think is off base. Because most wise investments are long term. 

By the way check out kingnsake.com there is a guy running an ad for leopard tortoises, its something like 
leopard tortoises vs the stock market. Using the example of how much leopard tortoises increase in value from hatchling to say 5 years old. 

I think I am going to put this to the test. I am however going to wait untill I can find some quality elongated tortoises or maybe a nice group of yellow foots. And invest about 2,000. And track it over four years.


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## -EJ (Nov 15, 2008)

My guess is that you asked the question knowing darn well what the answer was. 

If you invest in a known breeding group and you know they are going to continue to produce... yup they are a good investment. Talk to they guy who picked up the group of Egyptians and jacked the market to over $500 a piece for the babies. If you invest wisely you can make money at the deal.



Redfootedboxturtles said:


> Are tortoises a good investment ? With all types of crazy things going on with our economy is it a wise investment to purchase expensive tortoises? I am of course speaking of buying animals to breed and sell babies. No buying a pet or two.


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## tortoise_addict (Nov 18, 2008)

There are 3 different levels to breeding any animals.
1) Straight up business. These are the people who only think about a profit and the best way to maximize that profit. If done correct then you can make quite a bit of money. You can not have any emotional attachments to your animals. Kinda like herp puppy mills. You can make a big profit if you know how and cut corners. That is with torts too if you know how to do it correctly. 
2) Hobbyist breeder. Someone who starts out with a love for the animal and eventually ends up breeding. Some are able to make what they put in and maybe a little more. Some make a very small profit but its ok because your loved pets are paying there way and its what you love to do.
3) Strictly pet owner. Would never even consider thinking of there pets as a investment or breeding them. They usually think the people who do breed are not as good a owner. They are usually the ones that fail to realize how that loved pet came about to live in there home. 

No matter how you look at it its all in what you choose to do. Some are better at maximizing profits then others. Some could probably make more profit on it but refuse to drop there level of care and quality that goes into each animal. 
It all depends on your business sense and how you market and move your product. 
It will only be an investment if you know how to make it an investment. You have to know where, when and how to market your product. It can be successful and can be a loss. Just like any investment its a gamble. 
Some people fail to realize that when they pay overhead its steady and smaller amounts are spent at a steady rate. When they do finally sell a animal they get a chunk in at one time. A lot of people fail to realize exactly how much is put in the overhead of caring for the animals and usually its a wash and most people sell one animal and think it can be profitable. 
I say sell an animal and with that money try raising your breeders/babies with that money only and see how long it lasts you and how big of a profit it really is. Its only a profit when you can pocket the difference with not strings attached.

This was a great topic and conversation. I liked reading everyones thoughts.


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## Redfoot NERD (Nov 18, 2008)

There are 'truths' in each and all of what you just said addict.

Most don't realize how much it does cost to care for a 'group' of breeding size adults. I once commented that any dummy can breed redfoot tortoises.

Anyone who has read my "Breeding Notes on Geochelone carbonaria" remembers when a water turtle breeder friend said - Ã¢â‚¬Å“Not any dummy can re-create the environment and conditions necessary to keep tortoises healthy and happy enough to produce viable offspring consistently, the way you doÃ¢â‚¬Â. http://turtletary.com/gcarbonariabreeding.doc

And then the work begins. Getting the hatchlings "started" so the new owners only have to duplicate the "housing/diet" NEEDS.. so the process will begin again. 

And getting the new owner to follow those "guidelines" is not an easy task either!

Another part of making a beloved "hobby" profitable IS making it a business!!! It is quite amazing how much can be written off as business expenses.

So yes there are a FEW of us that have and will make a profit.. that never get tired of feeling the baby squirm in the egg.. watch it struggle to get out of the egg.. take it's first bite.. have someone reply to an ad. saying they want to pay for a hatchling that hasn't hatched yet.. having them post that their new hatchling "ate-right-out-of-the-box".. repeat and referral business [ knowing your babies are going to good homes ].. and watching a few "keepers" grow up to start the whole process all over again - knowing you've done something right.

All of the above takes years of WORK! Worth every drop of blood.. sweat.. and tears!!! 

Redfoot NERD


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## Marla (Nov 18, 2008)

tortoise_addict said:


> There are 3 different levels to breeding any animals.
> 1) Straight up business. These are the people who only think about a profit and the best way to maximize that profit. If done correct then you can make quite a bit of money. You can not have any emotional attachments to your animals. Kinda like herp puppy mills. You can make a big profit if you know how and cut corners. That is with torts too if you know how to do it correctly.
> 2) Hobbyist breeder. Someone who starts out with a love for the animal and eventually ends up breeding. Some are able to make what they put in and maybe a little more. Some make a very small profit but its ok because your loved pets are paying there way and its what you love to do.
> 3) Strictly pet owner. Would never even consider thinking of there pets as a investment or breeding them. They usually think the people who do breed are not as good a owner. They are usually the ones that fail to realize how that loved pet came about to live in there home.
> ...



Nicely said...


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## REDFOOTMATT (Dec 5, 2008)

tortoise_addict said:


> There are 3 different levels to breeding any animals.
> 1) Straight up business. These are the people who only think about a profit and the best way to maximize that profit. If done correct then you can make quite a bit of money. You can not have any emotional attachments to your animals. Kinda like herp puppy mills. You can make a big profit if you know how and cut corners. That is with torts too if you know how to do it correctly.
> 2) Hobbyist breeder. Someone who starts out with a love for the animal and eventually ends up breeding. Some are able to make what they put in and maybe a little more. Some make a very small profit but its ok because your loved pets are paying there way and its what you love to do.
> 3) Strictly pet owner. Would never even consider thinking of there pets as a investment or breeding them. They usually think the people who do breed are not as good a owner. They are usually the ones that fail to realize how that loved pet came about to live in there home.
> ...



Wow, this topic has stirred up quite a little frenzy. I love it! I would be level #2. A hobbyist breeder. I do it for the Reptile addiction so many of us have. I never got into it for greed, I just loved watching things hatch. I am quite sure that Tortoises could be a good investment if you have put in the years of sweat and learning and have everything dialed in like some of you guys obviously do. That does not make you "greedy" unless maybe you are at that level #1. I've made a a lot of $ over the years on various reptile breeding in consideration of the cost of food, electricity ect. But if I were to add the equation of my time (even minimum wage pay) I probably would be in the "red" profit wise. But I didn't ever go into it full scale. I always had a day job. I wonder if you guys considered all your hours caring, researching ect. as overhead? If you were to add that in as a direct cost (just for fun) how did your profits look? I do believe if it wasn't for the breeders out there our wild populations would suffer horribly (so don't hate the breeders). I admire guys like Terry who have such a passion for producing such quality animals and sharing his knowledge and experience with everyone just so the animals can benefit from better health. This has been an interesting post though.


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