# mixing species?



## argus333 (Dec 28, 2012)

i know its bad and frowned on. but every zoo i go to does it.. whats with the mixing?
popcorn park zoo-- leopards and sulcatas 
cape may zoo- leopards sulcatas and aldabras!!!
staten island -- leopards with all kinds of african mamals!
bush gardens tampa-- sulcatas aldabras Galapagos! awsome display!
snake animal farm- sulcata leopards.
central park- sulcata leopards
anyone here do it?


----------



## Yellow Turtle (Dec 29, 2012)

I believe you can do that with very careful observation. But now, not all personal care gets the luxury of having a full time vets like the zoo.


----------



## Irwin4530 (Dec 29, 2012)

Not only betting, but care for each variety of tort is different. You need to look at more then just the fact that they are mixed...I have been to only two of the zoos you listed and their care was terrible!! I am NOT saying that all zoos are bad (you listed one you
Thought was great, I've never been so I cannot comment) but it makes care easier and torts healthier if you keep them by species.....remember what doesn't bother one species will harm another.

Good luck to you, whatever you decide 


What types of torts were you thinking of
Mixing ?!


----------



## Tom (Dec 29, 2012)

Three main problems:
1. Behavioral incompatibility.
2. Enclosure parameter incompatibility. Hotter, cooler, wetter, etc...
3. Disease potential. Different species from different parts of the world are not equipped to deal with each others intestinal nasties.

Zoos take a big risk when they do this. Sometimes they get away with it for a while, sometimes they don't. It also makes it easier when you have a full time veterinary staff to immediately deal with any of the multitude of problems that pop up from this practice. BTW, In most cases, zoos have many factors to balance and deal with when housing their animals, including pleasing the public. Zoos are not necessarily good example setters for the public to follow.


----------



## jtrux (Dec 29, 2012)

Personally I don't think mixing species is a good idea. Sulcatas tend to have bolder personalities than Leopards and might intimidate them or stress them out, or vise versa, you never know. You never know what might happen when you are at work, or inside watching TV. You just can't be there with them all the time so it's really a better idea to just give them their own space.


----------



## Baoh (Dec 29, 2012)

It would seem that, like with all things, some folks are more capable of managing this than others might be.

I mix species and match for sex, size, and (most importantly to me) behavior as I see it. I do not mix all animals or mix in all situations. I am not experiencing the doomsday often claimed regarding such things. I neither promote nor discourage mixing as a matter of course. You can have disaster with multiple animals of the same species, multiple animals of different species, and even when keeping a single animal in solitary conditions. Likewise, you can have great success with multiple animals of the same species, multiple animals of different species, and when keeping a single animal in solitary conditions.


----------



## Kapidolo Farms (Dec 29, 2012)

Many zoos are still using an inherited system of mixing the large island species. The valid concerns of disease transmission had either already been born out many years ago, and/or the zoo simply does not have space/exhibits to separate them, an often witnessed professional argument between the herp curator seeking to sperate, with the director seeking admissions and zoo use sales - gets won by the director most of the time..

Sulcata and leopards do have overlapping areas of their natural ranges, not much, but it is biogeographicaly correct. I would still not house them together, as sulcatas seem more often than not, unwilling to share space with leopards.

Other mixed groups that have been displayed with images here (TFO) are yellowfoots, aldabras, and galops, all based on the size of the animals and again, that professional argument, at Saint Louis Zoo (which has one of the finest reptile vivariums in the US - IMO).

The reason zoos do it is mostly based on an inherited set-up, coupled with the fact that zoos have a different criteria/needs, they are selling tickets, and have a full time vet, and dedicated staff (good or bad). Many zoos with a stronger curator have leaned towards having only one or the other of the giants, based on popularity with their public, and what the curator can manage in terms of which group can be properly surplused.

Mixing the tortoises outside with mammals is a good way to show how animals are in the wild, not species by species as might be thought of as the 'biblical' display pattern. Many of those animals (not by species, but by individual) will be housed separately when off display. 

There are good zoos, great zoos, and those that are minimal. I've been to the Cape May zoo many times, it is a well managed animal population with many dedicated keepers. In there tropical bird house they mix species too, in a multi-hundred square foot enclosure. Not an aquarium or even a 4 x 8 footprint enclosure.

Size of enclosure is another factor that makes mixed species work, if at all. A redfoot mixed with a Russian at PetCo is a disaster, two biogeographicaly mixed species like a leopard and a sulcata in an exhibit large enough for mixed hoof stock is OK. These are apples and oranges types of comparisons.

Mixing species has two fates, it will work or it won't. So what you have to consider, is this - are your husbandry practices good enough, and your resources (vets, physical space, etc.) sufficient - to play with it? Then ask yourself even if you meet the first criteria, what benefit are you getting, are the tortoises getting from being mixed? Most all tortoises are single animals with occasional encounters in the wild with other tortoises. They are not mob, herd, or flocking animals with very few exceptions.

The tortoise does not NEED to be with others. So what do you get, the fewer enclosures to upkeep - mix the wrong species/individuals together and they will die, and then you have no upkeep!

The sole animal disaster, as it was phrased, is the result of disease, poor husbandry, or the individual animal not being a "doer". Two of those three potentials is why you should always use a long quarantine, and not mix.

Will


----------



## Tom (Dec 29, 2012)

Baoh said:


> It would seem that, like with all things, some folks are more capable of managing this than others might be.
> 
> I mix species and match for sex, size, and (most importantly to me) behavior as I see it. I do not mix all animals or mix in all situations. I am not experiencing the doomsday often claimed regarding such things. I neither promote nor discourage mixing as a matter of course. You can have disaster with multiple animals of the same species, multiple animals of different species, and even when keeping a single animal in solitary conditions. Likewise, you can have great success with multiple animals of the same species, multiple animals of different species, and when keeping a single animal in solitary conditions.



And however you want to phrase this you are taking a risk. An unnecessary risk. A risk that is not wise for most people in most situations to engage in.

And yes you ARE promoting it by your constant arguing with those who recommend against it. If people don't mix species, as I and many others recommend, no disease will be transmitted between species. If they choose to mix species as YOU are constantly demonstrating, diseases MIGHT be transmitted to the detriment of someone's collection.

Whether or not you are technically correct is irrelevant here. Your position helps no one, possibly hurts some, and makes you look bad, over and over and over... Please stop.




Baoh said:


> Likewise, you can have great success with multiple animals of the same species, multiple animals of different species, and when keeping a single animal in solitary conditions.



Likewise, I can have great success playing russian roulette too. Up to five out of six times in a row!


----------



## african cake queen (Dec 29, 2012)

Tom said:


> Three main problems:
> 1. Behavioral incompatibility.
> 2. Enclosure parameter incompatibility. Hotter, cooler, wetter, etc...
> 3. Disease potential. Different species from different parts of the world are not equipped to deal with each others intestinal nasties.
> ...


hi, i agree. my vet. says the same thing. number 3 point is a major one.i trust my vet and would never put any other kind of tort. with my cakes.


----------



## tyrs4u (Dec 29, 2012)

Proof they 'can' live together but it is never recommend ... Cute photo...


----------



## FLINTUS (Dec 29, 2012)

I was chatting to Danny on another forum about mixing redfoots and cherry heads and he thinks they shouldn't be mixed as could be a completely different species.


----------



## RedfootsRule (Dec 29, 2012)

Tom said:


> Baoh said:
> 
> 
> > It would seem that, like with all things, some folks are more capable of managing this than others might be.
> ...





Tom, has he claimed in other threads that it is ok? I've only seen it once, and all he is saying is you CAN have success. And you can. Should it be attempted? Probably not. I don't care who you are, we all get an opinion. Yes, it could hurt some, but unfortunately, sometimes we post things. We can't stop every time we post an answer to a question (well you know some guy from the Ukraine who just got a russian tortoise could think this means that and....). We don't always think of it...If we did, it would take a lot of quality and enjoyment away from this forum (for some members).

I suppose it depends on the species your mixing. As Will said, russians and red foots? Definitely not. Yellowfoots and red foots? I see nothing wrong with it. Geographic location has a lot to do with it. Can you mix a desert tortoise with a impressed? Absoloutely not (obviously).
He has stated his opinion. Personally, I agree with him. Yes, it is a dangerous game of russian roulette to mix species. It should not be attempted by many. It CAN be done with success however. There is a multitude of problems that MAY arise, but how much experience does anyone here have with species mixing? If you have healthy animals (okay, I know the diseases that can be transmitted to other tortoises are unharmful to that tortoise, yada yada) it can be done with success...

FLINTUS,
I don't see anything wrong with keeping cherries and red foots. They MAY be different sub-species. Keyword, sub-species. They will never be different species..Personally, I don't see a thing wrong with mixing yf's, rf's and cherries (as long as there is similar size and no aggression. With any mixing of even the same species, you have to watch out for aggression). They all come from the same area, and they do encounter each other in the wild...


----------



## Baoh (Dec 29, 2012)

Tom said:


> Baoh said:
> 
> 
> > It would seem that, like with all things, some folks are more capable of managing this than others might be.
> ...





You take an unnecessary risk every time you take a shower. I am assuming you shower. 

I do not recall a time I have promoted it (as being inherently superior) over keeping solitary animals or keeping multiple individuals within a species. I do provide a counter-perspective to dogmatic demonization, however.

The transfer of pathogens from one species to another does not necessitate their mixing. A gap in a hygiene protocol can easily do the same. Forgetting to take full steps just once is enough, assuming pathogens are present. If they are not present, ill wishes and irrational fears will not lead to their spontaneous generation. If they are present, they are also harmful to same-species contact, but if they are present in neither species in a mixed-species setup, that matter becomes immaterial.

Being technically correct is the best kind of correct to be and is relevant even if it is inconvenient for you and whatever dichotomous religion (old vs. new, bone dry vs. jungle-like closed chamber, always mix all species vs. never mix any species, and so on) you are attempting to forge.

Please avoid slipping in that shower.


----------



## Kapidolo Farms (Dec 29, 2012)

FLINTUS said:


> I was chatting to Danny on another forum about mixing redfoots and cherry heads and he thinks they shouldn't be mixed as could be a completely different species.



They are the same species, really, no more different then an albino from a non-albino of the same species, it is a color morph, not a species or even a subspecies. At best it is a phenotypical expression of a cline, or variation among populations.

If some of the arm chair geneticists here want, I can shoot you a few pdf's about this kind of thing.

Will


----------



## RedfootsRule (Dec 29, 2012)

Will said:


> FLINTUS said:
> 
> 
> > I was chatting to Danny on another forum about mixing redfoots and cherry heads and he thinks they shouldn't be mixed as could be a completely different species.
> ...



Same species or not is an interesting thing. Some say it is just color variation through locality. Some say they could be different subspecies. I think either one is a possibility...But genetic work is very unlikely to be done on it, so we will probably always be speculating ...

Not sure what an "arm chair geneticist" is, but I'm always interested in learning. . Send it to me if possible.


----------



## Tom (Dec 29, 2012)

Peter, this is a long standing argument between he and I. You already spelled out the answer in your post. No one has ever said that it is a 100% instant death sentence the minute you put two different species in the same enclosure. What I have always maintained is that its risky and should be recommended against. I have seen many tortoises die as a result of this and so have many other keepers.

The point is that MY advice will hurt NO ONE'S tortoises, and could possibly save someone from making a fatal mistake. Baoh isn't arguing that anyone SHOULD mix species he just likes to pop in and say that it is physically possible to do it without killing or infecting one's tortoises. The problem is that its SEEMS like he IS arguing and it might encourage some people to do things they otherwise wouldn't have. I say it hasn't been a problem, YET. Or that he is yet aware of. 

Yes everyone is entitled to their opinion, but when someone's opinion is potentially fatal to someone else's tortoises who has come here asking for help and guidance, I will not stand by and watch bad advice given, or the appearance of advocating risky, potentially dangerous practices. Practices that I know first hand can be deadly. If you wish to not say anything out of respect for everyone's opinion, that is your prerogative.


----------



## Baoh (Dec 29, 2012)

Tom said:


> Peter, this is a long standing argument between he and I. You already spelled out the answer in your post. No one has ever said that it is a 100% instant death sentence the minute you put two different species in the same enclosure. What I have always maintained is that its risky and should be recommended against. I have seen many tortoises die as a result of this and so have many other keepers.
> 
> The point is that MY advice will hurt NO ONE'S tortoises, and could possibly save someone from making a fatal mistake. Baoh isn't arguing that anyone SHOULD mix species he just likes to pop in and say that *it is physically possible to do it without killing or infecting one's tortoises*. The problem is that its SEEMS like he IS arguing and it might encourage some people to do things they otherwise wouldn't have. I say it hasn't been a problem, YET. Or that he is yet aware of. His remarks are often accompanied by thinly veiled insults and snarky jabs, which is why I say what I say about him looking that way.
> 
> Yes everyone is entitled to their opinion, but when someone's opinion is potentially fatal to someone else's tortoises who has come here asking for help and guidance, I will not stand by and watch bad advice given, or the appearance of advocating risky, potentially dangerous practices. Practices that I know first hand can be deadly. If you wish to not say anything out of respect for everyone's opinion, that is your prerogative.



Because...it...is....

I have even detailed how I have used the feces of one tortoise of one species to assist in the recovery of another tortoise of a separate species that was ill when it came to me. I would preferentially perform this with a related animal, but there are situations where I will work with what I have for a number of reasons.

I tend not to resort to name-calling, unlike yourself. I guess my horse simply does not stoop that low.


----------



## RedfootsRule (Dec 29, 2012)

Tom said:


> Peter, this is a long standing argument between he and I. You already spelled out the answer in your post. No one has ever said that it is a 100% instant death sentence the minute you put two different species in the same enclosure. What I have always maintained is that its risky and should be recommended against. I have seen many tortoises die as a result of this and so have many other keepers.
> 
> The point is that MY advice will hurt NO ONE'S tortoises, and could possibly save someone from making a fatal mistake. Baoh isn't arguing that anyone SHOULD mix species he just likes to pop in and say that it is physically possible to do it without killing or infecting one's tortoises. The problem is that its SEEMS like he IS arguing and it might encourage some people to do things they otherwise wouldn't have. it hasn't been a problem, YET. Or that he is yet aware of. His remarks are often accompanied by thinly veiled insults and snarky jabs, which is why I say what I say about him looking that way.
> 
> Yes everyone is entitled to their opinion, but when someone's opinion is potentially fatal to someone else's tortoises who has come here asking for help and guidance, I will not stand by and watch bad advice given, or the appearance of advocating risky, potentially dangerous practices. Practices that I know first hand can be deadly. If you wish to not say anything out of respect for everyone's opinion, that is your prerogative.



As I said, our discussions cannot be limited to whether someone might read it and take the wrong meaning from it, thus hurting their tortoise. It just can't. What is "seems" like people are doing unfortunately doesn't matter, its what they are. Clearly, you take this as a personal affront to you, but I see no "thinly veiled insults", "snarky jabs", or him claiming he has "superior intellect". Nobody is getting on their high horse and "speaking condescendingly to our inferior minds" whether you wish to believe that or not. A fact was stated. It is physically possible to do. Thats all I saw stated...He said himself, he has not promoted it as being superior, or recommended it. He said it is possible. It is possible. Just because YOUR advice isn't harmful, doesn't mean anyone who gives contrary advice is automatically an ***.

Everything I saw in his posts I agree with, and I see nothing matching your description. We can't go around calling people "asses" (which by the way means donkey) just because they state a fact. Could it hurt someones tortoise? Absoloutely. Every time there is a post about calcium and someone says "a little is good" should we worry that someone new to the community might think "if a little is good, a lot is great! A bottle a day!"? Our conversations can't be limited because they "may appear to advocate risky practices". We can't be like parents discussing inappropriate things in a hushed voice because children are near and they MIGHT hear.

If he was popping in to say, "Haha, I mix all species together and have no problems. Everyone should do it and anyone saying anything otherwise is an idiot" then there would be a problem. Pointing out possibilities is not a problem.


----------



## Tom (Dec 29, 2012)

I never called anyone any name. I stated that his words and behavior made him look like an ***, and they do. There is a difference between "You are an ***.", and "Your bad behavior makes you look like an ***." The latter gives the benefit of the doubt that the person might not actually be an ***.

Peter, I just told you that this is based on a long history. Not the preceding few paragraphs. He and I have been at this for years and he takes every opportunity to try an make me look bad and himself superior. But he's subtle about it. Unfortunately, a lot of his shenanigans, and mine too, have been deleted by the mods over time, so you can't go back and read it.




Baoh said:


> You take an unnecessary risk every time you take a shower. I am assuming you shower.



This is a ridiculous argument and not relevant.




Baoh said:


> I do not recall a time I have promoted it (as being inherently superior) over keeping solitary animals or keeping multiple individuals within a species. I do provide a counter-perspective to dogmatic demonization, however.



I never said you did. I said that your incessant arguing with the people who recommend against mixing species, because they have seen the destruction it can cause, gives the APPEARANCE that you promote it. And there is no "demonization" , dogmatic or otherwise here. Just pointing out the obvious and trying to help other tortoise keepers not make common mistakes.

Who is it you are trying to help here?


----------



## RedfootsRule (Dec 29, 2012)

The best way to handle bad behavior is to ignore it. The best way to encourage it is to respond to it. I've dealt with what people call "trolls" on many forums; a heated exchange is exactly what they look for and desire.

Have a good day .


----------



## Baoh (Dec 29, 2012)

Tom said:


> I never called anyone any name. I stated that his words and behavior made him look like an ***, and they do. There is a difference between "You are and ***.", and "Your bad behavior makes you look like an ***." The latter gives the benefit of the doubt that the person might not actually be an ***.
> 
> Peter, I just told you that this is based on a long history. Not the preceding few paragraphs. He and I have been at this for years and he takes every opportunity to try an make me look bad and himself superior. But he's subtle about it. Unfortunately, a lot of his shenanigans, and mine too, have been deleted by the mods over time, so you can't go back and read it.
> 
> ...





You broached the matter of unnecessary risk. I met it with a risk I assume you take on with relative frequency. It is relevant to risk. Not risk to tortoises specifically. Risk in general. You are not overly concerned with risk of falling in the shower because you behave in a manner that involves taking precautions to avoid having frequent falls. I am not overly concerned with risk of pathogenic transmission between the species of animals I have in my care because I behave in a manner that involves taking precautions to avoid having pathogens present in the species I keep.

http://articles.latimes.com/2011/jun/09/news/la-heb-bathroom-injuries-20110609

Nothing worthy of ridicule involved.


----------



## Tom (Dec 29, 2012)

Baoh said:


> The transfer of pathogens from one species to another does not necessitate their mixing. A gap in a hygiene protocol can easily do the same. Forgetting to take full steps just once is enough, assuming pathogens are present. If they are not present, ill wishes and irrational fears will not lead to their spontaneous generation. If they are present, they are also harmful to same-species contact, but if they are present in neither species in a mixed-species setup, that matter becomes immaterial.



No SH*T sherlock. Who here do you think does not know this?

The point is that many diseases are very difficult to diagnose and are even hard to find in a necropsy, much less in a living animal. Many don't show up, or only show up sporadically or randomly in fecals. Many don't even show up in gastric lavage to the tune of $300 per test.

.... and don't you dare to try to negate these facts by changing the subject and asking me to name all the tortoise diseases to which I am referring to. You know them darn well and you can do the same Google search as I can.


----------



## Jacqui (Dec 29, 2012)

Peter you made some great points!

For others, please do not insult or call others names.


----------



## RedfootsRule (Dec 29, 2012)

If I ask really nicely, can a moderator either close this thread or delete all of the unnecessarily argumentative posts? (Including mine). I think we all know that, while some good points have been made, this is an inappropriate personal argument which does not belong on this forum, nor is it beneficial to any members. Please ?


----------



## Baoh (Dec 29, 2012)

Tom said:


> I never called anyone any name. I stated that his words and behavior made him look like an ***, and they do. There is a difference between "You are and ***.", and "Your bad behavior makes you look like an ***." The latter gives the benefit of the doubt that the person might not actually be an ***.
> 
> Peter, I just told you that this is based on a long history. Not the preceding few paragraphs. He and I have been at this for years and he takes every opportunity to try an make me look bad and himself superior. But he's subtle about it. Unfortunately, a lot of his shenanigans, and mine too, have been deleted by the mods over time, so you can't go back and read it.
> 
> ...






I argue by providing multiple sides to the story you are trying to spin in a unidimensional manner. It does not matter to me if you keep no animals, one animal, multiple animals of one species, or multiple animals of multiple species. However, I do not have to agree with your false belief that mixing species is inherently bad and automatically leads to either immediate or eventual disaster. If a pardalis and a sulcata eat from the same plate and they are both healthy, helminths do not start raining from the sky. 

You are of one species and you touch your tortoises which are not of your species. Somehow, some way, the world will keep turning.




Tom said:


> Baoh said:
> 
> 
> > The transfer of pathogens from one species to another does not necessitate their mixing. A gap in a hygiene protocol can easily do the same. Forgetting to take full steps just once is enough, assuming pathogens are present. If they are not present, ill wishes and irrational fears will not lead to their spontaneous generation. If they are present, they are also harmful to same-species contact, but if they are present in neither species in a mixed-species setup, that matter becomes immaterial.
> ...



There you go again with your name-calling.

That same logic should prevent you from ever introducing any individual from one species to another member of its same species.


----------



## Tom (Dec 29, 2012)

Baoh said:


> Being technically correct is the best kind of correct to be and is relevant even if it is inconvenient for you and whatever dichotomous religion (old vs. new, bone dry vs. jungle-like closed chamber, always mix all species vs. never mix any species, and so on) you are attempting to forge.



So if I come out to Missouri, put your back to a tree, place an apple on your head and back up 300 yards, and shoot the apple off of your head, that will be okay, since I'm not TECHNICALLY shooting at you, right? Technicalities matter, but giving good advice to people who ask for it matters too.

I'll repeat it again. If someone chooses to not mix species based on my, or anyone else's, advice, what bad thing is going to happen? NOTHING. If someone decides to throw their New Petco Russian in with their redfoot, because YOU have led them to believe the risk is minimal, and that silly Tom worries too much, what MIGHT happen? One or both animals might die.

Again BAOH, WHAT is the point of your arguing? Who are you trying to help?


----------



## Jacqui (Dec 29, 2012)

RedfootsRule said:


> If I ask really nicely, can a moderator either close this thread or delete all of the unnecessarily argumentative posts? (Including mine). I think we all know that, while some good points have been made, this is an inappropriate personal argument which does not belong on this forum, nor is it beneficial to any members.



I can't close the thread, as it's not a thread you started. Some great points have been made amid the arguments. As it is a debate thread, going into this more argumentative behavior is allowed. Mods are deleting things violating the rules. If it does continue or gets too out of hand, further action will be taken. This thread is currently on shakey ground and being watched. Please guys, watch yourself. Perhaps take a break and cool off?


----------



## RedfootsRule (Dec 29, 2012)

Tom said:


> Baoh said:
> 
> 
> > Being technically correct is the best kind of correct to be and is relevant even if it is inconvenient for you and whatever dichotomous religion (old vs. new, bone dry vs. jungle-like closed chamber, always mix all species vs. never mix any species, and so on) you are attempting to forge.
> ...



This is still the debate thread right? It's not the "only helping thread". No one has been led to believe the risk is minimal; that is in nobodies post. It is a debate, and a point was stated that it can be done. The risks were mentioned. You don't worry to much. We should all know darn well to worry about it. But it can be done, whether its dangerous or not.

I think everyone here is making themselves look stupid through this continuous argument....

Jacqui, does that mean if I open a thread and ask for a mod to close it, they will? I've always wondered that. Great points have been made here, I just hate seeing people pointlessly argue and embarrass themselves .


----------



## Baoh (Dec 29, 2012)

Tom said:


> Baoh said:
> 
> 
> > Being technically correct is the best kind of correct to be and is relevant even if it is inconvenient for you and whatever dichotomous religion (old vs. new, bone dry vs. jungle-like closed chamber, always mix all species vs. never mix any species, and so on) you are attempting to forge.
> ...



Please avoid implying a threat. Besides, I do not think you so technically competent as to be a decent enough shot to minimize my risk, William Tell.

Parasites can be transmitted and animals can fight if they follow your advice. Not "NOTHING".

I have never told anyone it is a good idea to toss in a new Petco Russian with their redfoot, however, so if someone took that away from what I have typed, they might have literacy issues in dire need of immediate address.

I am presenting another perspective to the topic to help people be more fully informed. 




Jacqui said:


> RedfootsRule said:
> 
> 
> > If I ask really nicely, can a moderator either close this thread or delete all of the unnecessarily argumentative posts? (Including mine). I think we all know that, while some good points have been made, this is an inappropriate personal argument which does not belong on this forum, nor is it beneficial to any members.
> ...



Jacqui, I will continue to call no derogatory names and make no threats, implied or explicit.


----------



## Tom (Dec 29, 2012)

Baoh said:


> However, I do not have to agree with your false belief that mixing species is inherently bad and automatically leads to either immediate or eventual disaster. If a pardalis and a sulcata eat from the same plate and they are both healthy, helminths do not start raining from the sky.
> 
> You are of one species and you touch your tortoises which are not of your species. Somehow, some way, the world will keep turning.
> 
> ...



I have no false belief about mixing species. It IS generally a bad idea for the reasons previously listed, and I have NEVER asserted in any way that it automatically leads to disaster, only that it often does. Because you have not seen it yet does not mean it does not exist. I and many other experienced keepers HAVE seen it. Every time? No. Sometimes? Yes. And the risk is less for animals of the same species from the same general areas of the world since they are better adapted to dealing with pathogens from the area where they come from. You know this. Why bring it up?

And there YOU go with YOUR insults. Crazy Tom thinks that parasites will fall from the sky if two tortoises eat from the same plate.

... and using common vernacular in emphasizing a point is NOT name calling, as much as you would like it to be. I don't really think your name is Sherlock and was not calling you that.




Baoh said:


> Please avoid implying a threat. Besides, I do not think you so technically competent as to be a decent enough shot to minimize my risk, William Tell.
> 
> I have never told anyone it is a good idea to toss in a new Petco Russian with their redfoot, however, so if someone took that away from what I have typed, they might have literacy issues in dire need of immediate address.
> 
> I am presenting another perspective to the topic to help people be more fully informed. I



No threat here, implied or otherwise. Simply making a point about technicalities. And you'd be wrong about my technical competence. You don't know me, but here is another example of your incorrect assumptions.

No you have not directly told anyone to put their Petco Russian with their redfoot, but I know you are smart enough to be able to tell that some people will take it that way and not even know about all the precautions you profess to take.

It is pointless for you to "present another perspective...". I have never said that mixing species is an automatic death sentence, just as you have never said its automatically fine to mix species.

How many times are we going to do this?

I'm offering good advice to people who have asked for it. You are offering no advice to people, only trying to make others look as if they don't know what they are talking about, when they clearly do, in some ill-conceived effort to discredit them. I'm the only one who takes the time to publicly argue with you about this, but others agree with me and you know it.


----------



## Jacqui (Dec 29, 2012)

Let's get back on topic, which is mixing species.


----------



## Yvonne G (Dec 29, 2012)

A note of explanation:

Any post that isn't on topic from this point on will be sent to the "to be deleted" file.


----------



## argus333 (Dec 29, 2012)

what gets me and i saw it 1st hand was people may own a sulcata and see him with aldabras and think, hey i have a huge pen for old sulcata why not get a aldabra also... not really a good idea. but some are better caretakers the others, as with some zoos. the diplay at bush gardens is sick and u can fully pet the tortoises!


----------



## Kapidolo Farms (Dec 29, 2012)

Not mixing species is not dogma, it is wise practice based on a very cogent scientific principle, the "precautionary principle". This simple states don't act on knowledge you don't have. Knowledge can be gained through controlled experiments, and very good observation such that you can predict outcomes with statistical accuracy.

The progression of awareness of zoonotic disease is more often than not based on people dying from some mystery disease. Someone does some research, and they sort it out. Then new better ways are used to continue working with the animals so people don't get sick.

That is not dogma, that is rational behavior. 

It is absolutely necessary to introduce males and females of the same species for reproduction in most all chelonians (some debate could be had over past uses of semen collection and artificial insemination, but that's "off topic"). So that is a well reasoned cause to have turtles/tortoises together, at least as long as one does not injure the other. Many species reproductive socialization in the wild as well as in captivity is high risk, for the individuals.

The matter of using feces from one animal to promote a wellness in another is a rational use barring siblings etc, are not available. It's a low sought out resolution, but if that's what you got, it is a best resolution.

Even if someone were to say, "my vet checked out m tortoise and it has a clean bill of health" it should not be mixed because . . .

1) Not all know disease processes are apparent even after multiple screenings.
2) Not all diseases are even known, the literature on new diseases found in chelonians is immense (there is a way to look at search effort and findings, then describe that trend, and from that offer a statistically well honed argument for how any more diseases are 'out there' but not yet discovered, but again that is "off topic" and I know that it works, I just don't know how to work it myself)

Disease is only one concern that is a subset of the entire debate on mixing species, and that in itself is a strong non-dogmatic, rational point of view. If you seek to breed, then mix individuals, if you are seeking hybrids then mix species.

If you want a pet, that once established is well cared for, then keep it as an individual.

What zoos do is depict the wilds of the world, so you can have a 'safari' in your city for many other parts of the world. Critically managed species are not mixed, and even pairings are deeply and well considered events.

And again, that person who kicked this can . . .

What are you hoping to gain, what is your payoff, what is better for you or the turtle by mixing species?

What is your goal or sought end result?

If you have no further comment about why you want to mix species, well then , they will delete any further thing I write. . .

Will


----------



## RedfootsRule (Dec 29, 2012)

I do very much agree with you Will, on all counts. It is a precautionary principle that should be exercised in all situations. It is true to say that it IS possible I suppose, but it is a possibility that should probably not be pursued.
And it is an interesting point you bring up, and very true when you think of it, that not all diseases (not even close) are known. A tortoise that is mixed with another species could drop dead one day from an unknown disease and we wouldn't be able to figure out the culprit.

What is your position on mixing species with overlapping ranges, like yellow foots and red foots? They are two different species, but they are closely related, and it seems they would meet each other in the wild. I guess its another argument to be had about the occurrence of hybridization, I'm just curious if there could be any possible contaminates between the two species.


----------



## Kapidolo Farms (Dec 29, 2012)

I would guess no unique diseases between the two species, where they are sympatric. But even then that is not a dead stop result. 

Snapping turtles have an STD that is unique to them, I understand, so even though they may swim with many other species, unless they "do it" with the other species that disease will not jump species.

Captive hybrids can be interesting, wild ones do occur, captive not my interest, wild very very interesting.

Will



RedfootsRule said:


> I do very much agree with you Will, on all counts. It is a precautionary principle that should be exercised in all situations. It is true to say that it IS possible I suppose, but it is a possibility that should probably not be pursued.
> And it is an interesting point you bring up, and very true when you think of it, that not all diseases (not even close) are known. A tortoise that is mixed with another species could drop dead one day from an unknown disease and we wouldn't be able to figure out the culprit.
> 
> What is your position on mixing species with overlapping ranges, like yellow foots and red foots? They are two different species, but they are closely related, and it seems they would meet each other in the wild. I guess its another argument to be had about the occurrence of hybridization, I'm just curious if there could be any possible contaminates between the two species.


----------



## RedfootsRule (Dec 29, 2012)

The snapping turtle comment led me to think, we do this all the time with turtles. I suppose the possible contaminates are different, being that so many species live so closely in the wild? I keep cooters, sliders, snappers all together and have never had any issues. I know many, many keepers that mix turtle species...Just interesting, the difference.


----------



## Tortoise (Dec 29, 2012)

I personally would not do it.
I think all of my pancake problems were probably due to the babies being thrown in with a totally different tortoise breed from the beginning.

I know someone who does keep Hermanns and Greek (ibera) together with no problems however.

I have both types of red foot and don't consider them different in terms of mixing species.

I also believe that the person commenting on using feces from another species is correct-it can save lives but the tortoise the sample is being used from needs to be screened very carefully to prevent transmission of other parasites.The only time I think this would be done is when you only have different species samples to choose from and it is preferable to use the same species if possible.
It can cure sterile gut syndrome.

In other species of mammal as in the alpaca, we can also transfer stomach contents to restore gut flora.

Generally speaking though, I think species mixing in tortoises is very risky.

(I have a plated lizard and beardie that came together and are thriving together too)I was willing to split them up but felt there was no need having studied their behavour carefully and supervised their feeding habits.


redfootsrule
I know of lots of people too mixing turtles quite happily-not sure why the aquatic turtles are so different?


----------



## argus333 (Dec 30, 2012)

what about the new sulcata/ leopard mix?


----------



## Team Gomberg (Dec 30, 2012)

I too wondered why it seems common for different species of aquatic turtles to be mixed without hesitation. 

I started a thread about that once in the water turtle section but i don't think anyone understood what i was asking and i don't remember a clear answer. 

I guess i would like to know, from those opposed to mixing tort species together, are you also against mixing different aquatic turtle species?


----------



## Kapidolo Farms (Dec 30, 2012)

argus333 said:


> what about the new sulcata/ leopard mix?



It's a big specific question.

Wild caught or otherwise well exposed to various things over a long history of life would tend to indicate the same issues as mixing species that do not have any biogeographic overlap. Its a conservative measure based on your not knowing what their exact history has been.

If you got, what are could be thought of as sterile hatchlings, never exposed to any other species, and there was a huge amount of space it might be an OK risk.

The over-riding thought though is why risk it?

I have seen sulcatas and leopards in enclosures that were huge, hundreds of feet by hundreds of feet, think of the images Aldabraman shows for his tortoises. All is good until someone starts mating, and then the male of the same as well as the male of the other species comes over and gets into an altercation.

This point in time altercation can become a habit that occurs more and more frequently even if no mating is going on, then you have to separate. Now think about albadramans huge area again, and fill it with fountains of grass, logs and tortoise-line of sight disruptions and it can be workable long term, ad berms and hills, and dense plantings and it becomes more manageable.

But now you have a huge area with alot of gardening to do too. The overriding hesitation for this line of response is that most people seem to be good intentioned and set out to do all this, then don't and fall back to well, they said this and they said that, and it didn't work so it's not my fault.

In short, anything YOU do with captive animals is YOUR Fault or Success depending on the outcome. So the best and easiest resolve is to not suggest risky husbandry. Mixing species is risky, mixing individuals is risky. The risks have been explained ad nauseum.

Will


----------



## jtrux (Dec 30, 2012)

Ok, since this is just a debate and not intended to hurt feelings, i'll throw something in there. 

And i'm not picking sides...just saying what I heard recently.

In regards to mixing species and the transmission of pathogens between species this is what my girlfriend and I talked about. 

Before I start i'll say this...she is a biologist for the military and primarily does trauma research on mice, rats, pigs, and I think several other mammals.

She has a degree in cellular mollecular biology and has published countless papers on animal studies.

So what she said is this...as far as keeping different species together, if you're worried about spreading pathogens between species and you just intend to have tortoises outside in different pens, albeit seperate pens, then you might as well just keep them together. At her work the different animal rooms (rats, mice, pigs, monkeys, etc) are kept very seperate from one another. In order to go from one room to the next you must: change clothes, take a shower, wear little covers on your feet, walk on some sticky pad outside the door....all kinds of precautions. This is all to ensure that pathogens are not being transmitted on your body into the room. Every container, food dish, etc, etc is sterilized in an autoclave (basically an oven) before reuse or it's just thrown away and a new one is used. 

Unless you're going through this much trouble she said it's basically useless to try and keep them seperate if you're only reason is pathogen transmission. As far as behavior and husbandry requirements are concerned, that's a whole different story. 

Tom, I understand from some previous posts in different threads that you take a lot of precautions and that just might be enough but to the everyday person who just keeps animals seperate and doesn't follow a very stringent sterilization process between animals and enclosures, merely keeping animals seperate is not enough. 

Like I stated before, i'm not here to pick sides, just stating what my girlfriend said.


----------



## Kapidolo Farms (Dec 30, 2012)

jtrux,

Did your girlfriend also mention that those precautions are used between "barriers", one part of a vivarium to another as those animals are pathogen naive, and/or specifically bred to have no immune system at all, that the stocking rate can be as high as 5 mice in a box that is about 7 inches by 12 inches, so high a density that it is cleaned at least twice a week, and by cleaned I mean the animals are transfered to a new box after is has been sterilized, not sanitized mind you, but sterilized in an autoclave.

It's the difference between a general ward in a hospital and a ward for the immune-suppressed. The nurses use a different protocol and are not mixing "stuff" between patients. Further evidence of the outside and pathogens not jumping a few feet is done everyday by ill people going to zoos, and watching the apes, and monkeys across moats of ten or 20 feet.

Did your girlfriend further tell you that the air is turned over several times a day through filters, and UV sanitized for super immune suppressed animals, sorta like all the air outside with sunlight UV?

The cross over is that many tortoises are indeed "specific pathogen free" like those lab mice, and when you mix species thet are naive to those specific pathogens that may be common in another species, they get sick and die as a result. 

She may have told you also that when changing those mouse boxes she must use sterile tools, re-sterilized between boxes, all under a hood, as those mice are so fragile that even the anti-body of one SPF animal can trigger a death in another which can destroy a long term study.

You may also recall that at least some people here on the TFO suggest using gloves when handling their animals, and changing gloves, to spray their shoes with a disinfectant, when walking from one outside enclosure to another.

The congestion of tools, animals and the fact that your girlfriend may handle 5,000 mice in one day is why that higher level of biosecurity is used.

If you have three enclosures outside, and enter one after the other, with a footbath/spray etc. You are more covered than all that intense protocol. Exposure to air, non immune response animals and exposure to sun duplicate many of those bio-security protocols in a lab animal facility. Ask your girlfriend if the use UVC to sterilize hoods, or rooms, outside the sun does it non-stop (during the day).

When people have animal rooms at home and are careless when working their animals, then I would tend to agree with your girlfriend.

Inside is very different than outside, and many times it is a suggested practice to use a biosecurity system at home with mixed species rooms or collections, not just individuals enclosures.

Post/link a pdf of her work, if it is relevant to biosecurity.

Will


----------



## Tom (Dec 30, 2012)

I think Will said it better than I possibly could.

I would add the different pathogens are transmitted in different ways. Some pathogens are transmitted on clothes or in the air. Others are transmitted only by direct contact with bodily fluids. Some are transmitted by eggs, or encysted ova. As Will stated, direct sunshine kills a lot of these things and so does desiccation. As an example, I can drive down into Los Angeles for a job and my dog can pick up fleas. I drive home and the adult fleas might survive for a week or two at most, but any eggs they lay don't hatch or the larvae don't survive. Eventually any adults that hitchhiked up drop off and die. We use no flea products of any kind up here. Obviously this is an insect, but it serves as an example of the outdoor environment killing off unwanted nasties. The exotic animal vet that I spent two years with at school taught us that in most cases a six foot air barrier, a foot bath, hand washing, and dedicated tools and bowls are all that is needed to prevent disease transmission from one enclosure to another. I am not advocating lab-like sterility between enclosures and the pathogens that I am concerned about do not require sterile conditions. I have seen side by side glass enclosures where the tortoises in one were diseased and their next door neighbors were not. Only after moving a healthy one into the sick enclosure did any symptoms show up and it took about two weeks. The other ones continued on disease free and never showed any symptoms.

There are A LOT of potential pathogens and there are many means of transmission.

BTW, my wife has a masters in Microbiology and she has signed off on my post here.


----------



## Kapidolo Farms (Dec 30, 2012)

RedfootsRule said:


> The snapping turtle comment led me to think, we do this all the time with turtles. I suppose the possible contaminates are different, being that so many species live so closely in the wild? I keep cooters, sliders, snappers all together and have never had any issues. I know many, many keepers that mix turtle species...Just interesting, the difference.



Fully aquatics from the same watershed, or adjacent watersheds seem to do OK with each other.

The real busters of the whole mixed species/pathogen issue are those "semi-aquatics" they are the real tricky ones. And I'll further dodge this by saying REDFOOTSRULE, that you have gone off topic ;-),

I don't don't do aquatics at home, nor semi's. Just the torts.

Will


----------



## jtrux (Dec 31, 2012)

Hell, I have no idea, I asked her a quick question and got a quick answer. I'm no biologist and don't wanna be one lol


----------



## Nay (Dec 31, 2012)

Hi there,
As we learn more and more, (hopefully) I will say I think the practice of mixing species is probably not the best for torts.
That being said,I had 2 pets of mine together for many years.(Over 10) (Prior to internet is my best excuse) I joined up here and 'learned' that was not a good idea. So I tried to do the 'right 'thing and separated my two mixed species. (Jack and Louise) for three or 4 days I watched misery in 2 torts.
Neither would eat,both would pace their enclosures. I was torn between doing the right thing and doing what my gut said. I posted my concerns, and as you may guess, got a varitiy of responses, and also 'met' a number of great people on this forum. Some sending me videos of mixed species that should not be together. The one I loved and had never seen was this one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2Kc2y-geiU

I decided that if these 2 wanted to share their lives I was not going to change anything. I put them back together and they immediately went to eating. Jacks about a 14 lb RF and Louise is around 1 lb Ornate. He has never mounted her, as far as I can tell, and they used to be just in my living room in a pool for many years. Now thanks to this forum I have a huge out door enclosure with running water and many plants, protected by hot wire.I will see them under the hide together with his head resting on her back, many times. I do believe they like to be together, they have plenty of space to be apart, and there are 2 large dog house type hides. but most often when they are resting they are together.
I love this place to learn and know my case and a few others are the exception. I am throwing this out there to just break up this little debate. There are reasons things can be done, but the question is should they?.
Thanks for all your advise..







Here's how I find them alot..





And one other thing, can you notice how Jacks carapace is smoother 5 years later....That's thanks to TFO!!! (I also know pyramiding doesn't go away, but it sure seems to seem less pronounced..)
Nay


----------



## Tom (Dec 31, 2012)

jtrux said:


> Hell, I have no idea, I asked her a quick question and got a quick answer. I'm no biologist and don't wanna be one lol



Now you've got me laughing... I can just hear your tone of voice and slight Texas twang as you say this....   

I'm glad you are here man. Pease stick around.


Nay, your example is noted, and there are many others like it. Nobody is arguing whether or not it is physically possible to put two different species together and have everything be okay. We all know it can. The question is whether or not it SHOULD be done. For every case like yours where the animals didn't get sick and/or die, how many cases happened where they did? When you see someone's entire collection wiped out, or an entire operation shut down, you start to look at it differently.

You gambled and won. Seems that your two animals are fine. That's great. Many others have gambled and lost and their animals are dead. THIS, the latter, is what I am trying to prevent.


----------



## Yvonne G (Dec 31, 2012)

In most cases where folks have mixed species successfully it has been done by more experienced keepers, NOT by beginners. It is the beginner tortoise-keeper these do-not-mix posts are directed to. I think an experienced keeper does a great dis-service to the newbie, who are a great big part of this forum, to say I do it so its ok.


----------



## Tom (Dec 31, 2012)

emysemys said:


> In most cases where folks have mixed species successfully it has been done by more experienced keepers, NOT by beginners. It is the beginner tortoise-keeper these do-not-mix posts are directed to. I think an experienced keeper does a great dis-service to the newbie, who are a great big part of this forum, to say I do it so its ok.



I agree with this and it's a good point. It made me think of a couple of other points to illustrate.

1. Even for experienced keepers, it's not so simple to as just getting a quick vet check or two and then declaring an animal has a clean bill of health. Many of these diseases are very difficult to diagnose and simply don't show up in some tests. And frankly, there are soooo many potential diseases and parasites, and soooo many possible tests that could be administered it is mind boggling. Add to this the frequency of vet incompetence or vet tech incompetence (not knocking vets or techs, but it DOES happen), simple human error, false negative/positives that regularly occur, etc... and you get back to my original argument that mixing species is a gamble and a risk. A greater risk, of course, than NOT mixing species, regardless of experience or knowledge level.

2. Vet tests are fallible. Many times a disease or parasite just "lays low" in a host, or is held at bay by a healthy animal with a healthy immune system in a stable environment. Add a stressor, like a new tortoise, to the mix and all hell can suddenly break loose in an animal that seemed healthy and was completely asymptomatic prior to the introduction of the new stressor. The new animal doesn't even have to "DO" anything. Just having another unfamiliar tortoise in the territory can be enough in some cases.

Bottom line is still: Mixing species is a risk without benefit, and should be recommended against and discouraged. It is not going to end badly every time, but it is going to end badly SOME of the time. Due to imperfections in veterinary science and human ignorance (Yes ignorance. There is much we do not know about tortoises), there is no way to be certain which outcome a person will end up with regardless of experience or knowledge level.


----------



## Cheeky monkey (Dec 31, 2012)

argus333 said:


> i know its bad and frowned on. but every zoo i go to does it.. whats with the mixing?
> popcorn park zoo-- leopards and sulcatas
> cape may zoo- leopards sulcatas and aldabras!!!
> staten island -- leopards with all kinds of african mamals!
> ...



I have a really good book, which says NEVER mix tortoise species.


----------



## jtrux (Dec 31, 2012)

Tom said:


> Now you've got me laughing... I can just hear your tone of voice and slight Texas twang as you say this....




LOL


----------



## Nay (Jan 1, 2013)

In my case in was pure ignorance,I had a nice RF that I purchased at a Reptile show for 75.00. knowing NOTHING!!!(The guy was happy to see it go) Then someone a few years later has to get rid of this Ornate. I thought ,oh well the pool in my living room is pretty big, lets see how they do. I am grateful I ended up with 2 species that are pretty close in their living enviorments. Again this was 15 yrs ago.
Would I do it again?? NO. I feel once you learn, you cannot plead ignorance, and in this day of instant info, you cannot ever plead that case again. 
Nay


----------

