# Kicking a bucket on cuttle bone



## Kapidolo Farms

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28112674

This thread describes what has become a bias for me regarding this item we all use.
https://www.tortoiseforum.org/threa...ng-cuttlebone-like-crazy.172042/#post-1694159

Oyster shell too, it is recent growing things in the heavily polluted Marine environment.

That's why I have turned to pure limestone as a source for calcium carbonate. It's something formed long before the advent of industrial chemicals and mass pollution. it's more pure. 

GO


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## TammyJ

Dear Lord. Never even thought of this. So no more Mr. Cuttlebone? Calcium powder and boiled egg crushed up with the shell. OK.


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## Maro2Bear

But chickens are encouraged to ingest oyster shells for good strong shell production..


If you have laying hens, we recommend that you give them ground *oyster shells*. It is best to do this “free choice” by putting the *oyster shells* in a separate container, so that the hens can take as much as they need. The eggshell for each egg that your hen lays is about 95% calcium carbonate by dry weight. (Extracted from Murray McMurray)

So, i guess out with egg shells too?


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## Yvonne G

I have a big jar of Zoo Med Repticalcium (calcium carbonate). Just now I went and dipped my finger in the jar and tasted it, and there's no taste or smell. Cuttlebone does smell pretty fishy. Do you sell the limestone at Kapidolo Farms?


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## Tim Carlisle

First plastic straws, and now cuttlebone. You can't have my Bud Light! lol


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## KarenSoCal

Cuttlebone should smell like fish, shouldn't it? It IS fish.

I'm not understanding this...are you folks saying that the cuttlebone we buy has already been used to suck up metals from the sea, then sold to us for our birds and torts?

Or that the impurities are in the cuttlebone while it is still in the cuttlefish?

Maybe I shouldn't send this post...I'm wondering about my mind...[emoji53]


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## Markw84

@Will This paper deals with cuttlebone as a dead biomass. Much like carbon is used for removing heavy metals from water. How does this apply to cuttlebone removed from a cuttlefish (squid) during processing where the cuttlebone was not exposed to seawater as a dead biomass?


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## Grandpa Turtle 144

Maro2Bear said:


> But chickens are encouraged to ingest oyster shells for good strong shell production..
> 
> 
> If you have laying hens, we recommend that you give them ground *oyster shells*. It is best to do this “free choice” by putting the *oyster shells* in a separate container, so that the hens can take as much as they need. The eggshell for each egg that your hen lays is about 95% calcium carbonate by dry weight. (Extracted from Murray McMurray)
> 
> So, i guess out with egg shells too?



Why out with the eggshell ? I still mix the eggshell powder with the calcium carbonate ( like a time capsule)


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## zovick

Markw84 said:


> @Will This paper deals with cuttlebone as a dead biomass. Much like carbon is used for removing heavy metals from water. How does this apply to cuttlebone removed from a cuttlefish (squid) during processing where the cuttlebone was not exposed to seawater as a dead biomass?



If the squid grew up in the polluted ocean, then the bone it has formed while growing has been formed from those food items ingested by the squid which also contain pollutants. Hence, the squid is "polluted" as well. The reasoning is similar to that of fishing in a stream which was or still is polluted. The fishing is allowed only on a "catch and release" basis. No consumption of the fish is permitted.


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## Markw84

zovick said:


> If the squid grew up in the polluted ocean, then the bone it has formed while growing has been formed from those food items ingested by the squid which also contain pollutants. Hence, the squid is "polluted" as well. The reasoning is similar to that of fishing in a stream which was or still is polluted. The fishing is allowed only on a "catch and release" basis. No consumption of the fish is permitted.


Understood. However my question is about how this paper is only about the results of tests as an inert biomass. There is a huge difference between the way pollutants are metabolized in a living organism and how a dead biomass absorbs chemicals it is exposed to.


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## Cowboy_Ken

For me the big concern regards these highly intelligent animals,(cuttlefish) being harvested for a bone that we can replace using by simply using “limestone flour “. As I’ve said, I make a pile of the flour in the outdoor yard for free grazing as well as broadcast over the graze. My tortoises free graze from the pile when they need it. I’ve seen calcium scrapes in Africa but never cuttlefish bones laying around.


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## Yvonne G

One of our Forum members, I think Dean S or maybe Neal, mentioned that they fill a tiny receptacle with calcium powder and just leave it sitting in the enclosure. They eat it when they feel the need. I like that idea.


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## TechnoCheese

Yvonne G said:


> One of our Forum members, I think Dean S or maybe Neal, mentioned that they fill a tiny receptacle with calcium powder and just leave it sitting in the enclosure. They eat it when they feel the need. I like that idea.



I know people do that with leopard geckos, and it seems to work okay.


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## Grandpa Turtle 144

Yvonne G said:


> One of our Forum members, I think Dean S or maybe Neal, mentioned that they fill a tiny receptacle with calcium powder and just leave it sitting in the enclosure. They eat it when they feel the need. I like that idea.



My Marginals have 2 water dish’s for years but they will not go to the second one even if the first is empty , so I put a third one in their enclosure they will not use it either ! So I don’t trust them to use a dish of calcium!


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## Cowboy_Ken

Grandpa Turtle 144 said:


> My Marginals have 2 water dish’s for years but they will not go to the second one even if the first is empty , so I put a third one in their enclosure they will not use it either ! So I don’t trust them to use a dish of calcium!



Good thing they eat on their own. LOL


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## Grandpa Turtle 144

Cowboy_Ken said:


> Good thing they eat on their own. LOL



Yes ! I spoil my torts more then my wife and kids ( but my kids are almost 40 years old ) So I guess my torts are my children ![emoji217]


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## Toddrickfl1

I put a cuttlebone in my Redfoots enclosure when I got him last January and he hasn't touched it once? It's still sitting there a year later.


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## surfergirl

My Margie eats calcium when needed out of a bottle cap. I use cuttlebones as well because they are more resilent to the harsh enclosure enviro. A cap of calcium carbonate gets thrashed, lol

I am going to try going back to the self dosing cap method. I do not find that my torts eat much cuttlebones if I feed them well anyway.


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## Grandpa Turtle 144




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## Kapidolo Farms

I have used all of these things, limestone flower, cuttle-bone, oyster shell as flakes and 'chunks' and have only had that one issue with the one leopard tortoise as I posted it for another thread and linked it in the OP here. What drew me to cuttle done is that it should contain other elements 'nutrients' that compliment calcium carbonate as 'bone'. It is the relecitual protein in it that offers that certain distinct 'fishy smell', even if just a % or two of dried mass. It's not like we are using 'medical grade' cuttle-bone which has been cleaned for human use medicine.

But it got to thinking. Most tortoises supplement their calcium intake by eating bones they find and little bits of calcium rich 'rocks'. Often, at least for species that share habitat with hyenas, that bone is in hyena poop. They will also take advantage of egg shell, even their own as hatchlings eating their own egg shell.

I still do chop up some chicken egg shell with hard-boiled egg, when I don't 'hard-boil' in the microwave, without shell. 

Heavy metals are well known in pelagic fish, fish are bioaccumulators of many pollutants. Pre industrial age limestone still has some 'undesirable' composition to it, but it is clean enough to meet 'organic' food criteria. That's what sparked that specific interest. I know there are naysayers for 'organic' I'm a pro-organic foods person.

I've been using limestone based calcium carbonate for a few months now. I bought 4 - 50# pails of it after an initial small quantity trial, as I maximized the opportunity to get it cheap. Yeah I sell it, any diet item order will get a free small amount, on-top of any other diet item sought for free. I ran out of labels already, so I'll refer to this post for 'Label suggested uses' - Toss in 1/8 teaspoon per head (or equivalent) of greens fed, two to three times a week.

To everyone who suggest they get enough calcium directly from a proper diet, I suggest you suggest why you think tortoises in the wild that eat a 'proper diet' still supplement their greens with eggs shell, hyena poop, and bits of calcium rich rocks? They seek more than is in their diet.


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## Kapidolo Farms

Point taken @Markw84 and here is another study suggesting that Cuttle Fish can selectively reduce their tissue burden of heavy metals.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16336990

All those tortoises that consume cuttle fish might just not mind the fishy flavor, they might like it. It is not a redundancy or wild type behavior. bone, eggshell, and limestone are. I sought 'organic' cuttlebone, I did not find any.



Markw84 said:


> @Will This paper deals with cuttlebone as a dead biomass. Much like carbon is used for removing heavy metals from water. How does this apply to cuttlebone removed from a cuttlefish (squid) during processing where the cuttlebone was not exposed to seawater as a dead biomass?


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## Erinelle

I completely understand the concern for cuttlefish bone absorbing heavy metals from the sea. Even in the bones of cattle, metals are found. The body stores excess heavy metals in bone because the metals themselves attract to the heaviest concentration of calcium. That chemically and anatomically makes sense. However, I do wonder just how much metal is absorbed and if it’s cause for concern. 
One of my sulcatas will readily eat cuttle on a regular basis while my other 3 (who are only hatchlings and possibly unaware) haven’t touched cuttlebone.
I wonder where you suggest a good source of limestone? And are you calling it limestone flour because it’s a finely ground powder?

Limestone also has antibacterial properties and although it’s also found in soil, I do wonder if ground limestone is too rich for the gut bacteria of the tortoise because of its antibacterial properties? 
I’m not suggesting that it is; simply wondering if there is any study on that element of using it as a sourced calcium supplement. For every positive there’s also a negative so I’m just trying to be critical of all reactionary effects; to be sure that straight limestone in higher, richer bulk is overly portent.
The gut flora of tortoises is a very delicate balance. 
I do like the suggestion that limestone is mined from a source that is preindustrial for the purity, non-chemical aspect! I just want to wire on the side of caution when and consider all avenues on new sources of supplementantion. 

If we are going to say that egg shells are no longer viable as a sole source; one could also argue that microwaving the egg (so that it becomes hard boiled) also subjects the calcium to radiation, thus damaging much of the integrity of the calcium and other nutrients normally found in the eggshell.

Not at all arguing the case study. Just highlighting some other thoughts on the subject of calcium.
I too, am only curious and want the best options for my beloved shelled family!


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## Grandpa Turtle 144

Erinelle said:


> I completely understand the concern for cuttlefish bone absorbing heavy metals from the sea. Even in the bones of cattle, metals are found. The body stores excess heavy metals in bone because the metals themselves attract to the heaviest concentration of calcium. That chemically and anatomically makes sense. However, I do wonder just how much metal is absorbed and if it’s cause for concern.
> One of my sulcatas will readily eat cuttle on a regular basis while my other 3 (who are only hatchlings and possibly unaware) haven’t touched cuttlebone.
> I wonder where you suggest a good source of limestone? And are you calling it limestone flour because it’s a finely ground powder?
> 
> Limestone also has antibacterial properties and although it’s also found in soil, I do wonder if ground limestone is too rich for the gut bacteria of the tortoise because of its antibacterial properties?
> I’m not suggesting that it is; simply wondering if there is any study on that element of using it as a sourced calcium supplement. For every positive there’s also a negative so I’m just trying to be critical of all reactionary effects; to be sure that straight limestone in higher, richer bulk is overly portent.
> The gut flora of tortoises is a very delicate balance.
> I do like the suggestion that limestone is mined from a source that is preindustrial for the purity, non-chemical aspect! I just want to wire on the side of caution when and consider all avenues on new sources of supplementantion.
> 
> If we are going to say that egg shells are no longer viable as a sole source; one could also argue that microwaving the egg (so that it becomes hard boiled) also subjects the calcium to radiation, thus damaging much of the integrity of the calcium and other nutrients normally found in the eggshell.
> 
> Not at all arguing the case study. Just highlighting some other thoughts on the subject of calcium.
> I too, am only curious and want the best options for my beloved shelled family!



I said over a year ago a lot of what your saying . That’s why I went to non- microwaving eggshells . Now I use a mix of eggshells and carbonate calcium. 
And we ask about giving city water to torts . I like what your saying ! [emoji217]


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## TammyJ

Yvonne G said:


> I have a big jar of Zoo Med Repticalcium (calcium carbonate). Just now I went and dipped my finger in the jar and tasted it, and there's no taste or smell. Cuttlebone does smell pretty fishy. Do you sell the limestone at Kapidolo Farms?


Of course cuttlebone smells fishy, it is the cuttlefish inner skeleton! And I have some of that Repticalcium too, but it does not help their beaks stay nice and trimmed as well as providing calcium like the eggshell and the cuttlebone. Hmmmmmm. What about chalk? I used to eat it. As a child. A very young child.


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## daniellenc

@Will "I still do chop up some chicken egg shell with hard-boiled egg, when I don't 'hard-boil' in the microwave, without shell" this got me scared, lol. I microwave my egg and then grind in the raw shell membrane removed unless I've made hard boiled eggs for the house which is rare. I would think the raw shell was more dense in nutrients since there is no high heat to kill vitamins off. Is feeding the raw shell an issue?


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## Grandpa Turtle 144

daniellenc said:


> @Will "I still do chop up some chicken egg shell with hard-boiled egg, when I don't 'hard-boil' in the microwave, without shell" this got me scared, lol. I microwave my egg and then grind in the raw shell membrane removed unless I've made hard boiled eggs for the house which is rare. I would think the raw shell was more dense in nutrients since there is no high heat to kill vitamins off. Is feeding the raw shell an issue?



I been grinding my eggshell into a powder and feeding it to the torts uncooked for 18years . 
But eggshell takes longer to get in the torts system so now I mix it with calcium carbonate witch gets into the torts system faster . So it’s like a time capsule!


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## TammyJ

Is there any conclusion here? Is it OK to keep giving the tortoises cuttlebone? I think that if someone has been doing it for ages with no apparent ill effect, they are going to just keep on doing it, as why change what seems to be working? It seems to me also that if you pick everything apart, you will always find some reason not to keep using it....but on the other hand, why keep drinking the Kool-aid when there are still alternatives available?


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## Grandpa Turtle 144




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## Kapidolo Farms

TammyJ said:


> Is there any conclusion here? Is it OK to keep giving the tortoises cuttlebone? I think that if someone has been doing it for ages with no apparent ill effect, they are going to just keep on doing it, as why change what seems to be working? It seems to me also that if you pick everything apart, you will always find some reason not to keep using it....but on the other hand, why keep drinking the Kool-aid when there are still alternatives available?


Hi TammyJ, i dont know. What to say regarding a conclusion. I think we all discuss and offer points of view to creat a learning environment - the great thing about TFO! 

I have made a desicion on my husbandry practice after some trial and error regarding cuttlebone, calcium carbonate, etc (limestone flour).

A couple of points to clarify some poor writting on my past posts in this thread,

1) i use microwave 'hardboiled egg' by placing a tablespoon of water and two eggs in a microwave safe dish. No shell, beat them, a cook on high for two minutes. Then chopp that up and mix in w/ salad. These egg shells are discarded in a compost bin.

I also use boiled whole egg (in the shell) chopped up and mixed in with the salad.

I tend to go the microwave route most often.

2) it is my understanding that most cuttle bone that is used for birds is collected from beaches, cleaned somehow, and the sold. 

If so then that cuttlebone would have 'pollutants' in them, perhaps mostly washed off in the cleaning process? The second paper i posted in this thread suggest that while living, cuttle fish effectively discriminate in their ingestion of other sealife against absorbing metal pollutants. Their are many non-metal pollutants as well.

Medical grade cuttle bone is cleaned of trace protein, and 'screened' for contaminates, but that's not what is sold for birds - which is what we all use.

Limestone flour is harvested 'fossil rock' created before modern industrial pollutants. I found sources acceptable fot human 'organic' grade food processing - so that's where i decided to go.

******

I had used ZooMed brand calcium carbonate w/o D3 for most salad prep, and decided to get it at a better price. 

Calcium carbonate from limestone flour is less $$ than cuttle bone, maybe also less convenient based on how you use it, maybe more convinent.

That one leopard that got carried away eating the cuttlebone lead to my seeking something that works better for me. Even in high humidity enclosures, at worst theyvtrack it everywhere and it gets washed through and out when i flood the enclosures. They all do come over and take a mouthful off and on. It dose solidify into little lumps as CowboyKen has said, they the eat at that, but in this case, the little lumps resuspend into flour, they don't keep the small rock like shape.

I encourage more debate on this topic, please post more ideas and experience.


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## TammyJ

The topic has broadened from its title which is just about cuttlebone, to debating on other sources of calcium. I could say that a tortoise living in its natural habitat "in the wild" may or may not always get its requirement of calcium from what it finds to eat. But we will provide our kept tortoises with what we know they need so they should not then be deprived. If I give my redfoots all the best recommended food including opuntia, should they need a calcium supplement at all?


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## Grandpa Turtle 144

TammyJ said:


> The topic has broadened from its title which is just about cuttlebone, to debating on other sources of calcium. I could say that a tortoise living in its natural habitat "in the wild" may or may not always get its requirement of calcium from what it finds to eat. But we will provide our kept tortoises with what we know they need so they should not then be deprived. If I give my redfoots all the best recommended food including opuntia, should they need a calcium supplement at all?



That’s a hard question to answer. A mixed diet should be good some people would say . But then the tort would have a growth spert it may need more calcium or during egg laying season the females may need more calcium. And as you’ve seen in my posts I don’t want to use cuddle bone. But I’m open to other things !


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## TammyJ

I give my redfoots hard boiled egg crushed with the shell. That is after boiling the egg in a pot of water on the stove top. They love it as long as they don't get it more often than once per week. But does boiling the shell cut down on the calcium content? Is the raw egg shell better?


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## Grandpa Turtle 144

I Assume that some of the minerals are leached into the water . That’s why I use uncooked egg shells .


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## TammyJ

I imagine that they will eat bird eggs that fall to the ground out of their nests, in the wild, so of course, there they are getting raw egg "on the half shell".


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## Grandpa Turtle 144

TammyJ said:


> I imagine that they will eat bird eggs that fall to the ground out of their nests, in the wild, so of course, there they are getting raw egg "on the half shell".



And lizard eggs in the wild . And I been doing it for 18years . I just lately been mixing the powdered eggshells with calcium carbonate Cause it diegests faster then egg shell powder . Like a time capsule.


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## TammyJ

So can I give them crushed calcium tablets like what humans take? Is that just calcium carbonate? Is Repti-calcium different?


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## Grandpa Turtle 144

TammyJ said:


> So can I give them crushed calcium tablets like what humans take? Is that just calcium carbonate? Is Repti-calcium different?



Tammy 
You sound like a nice lady ! Why are you looking to spend more money? Why not look for food grade calcium carbonate you will find it on the Internet and after breakfast let your eggshells dry out for 24 hours and put them through a coffee grinder and then feed the mix of the two to your torts . Buy the way I have 51 adult torts . [emoji2]


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## Maro2Bear

Interesting Comment on this issue provided by an Amazon customer “JQ” regarding Calcium Carbonate/Limestone Powder being sold for poultry or reptiles.


There are more pure forms available for pet reptiles if you search for "precipitated calcium carbonate". While raw ground limestone such as this is probably healthier than no supplementation, the long-term difference between the 97% (industrial/animal grade) vs 100% purity (precipitated, food/pharma grade) will probably add up in the organ health & overall vitality of your pet if you plan on it living more than just a few years, and being as healthy as possible in old age. Even if we assume the 3% of impurities are non-toxic (mostly silica/sand & heavy metals, e.g. lead), it is 3% extra stress on the reptile's digestive system to extract the same amount of necessary nutrition. Perhaps that extra stress could prove deadly if the reptile is sick or old, or could result in weight issues etc over the long term. So yes, buy this if you don't want your pet to die immediately, or you plan on culling it soon anyways (e.g. chickens), but if you want to maximize your pets long-term health & perhaps save on some vet bills later, precipitated calcium carbinate would be a smarter purchase. 
Also it should be noted that this non-precipitated ground grade is the type used in cheap human calcium supplements, which have been found to lead to dangerous lead accumulation in the elderly. I think the difference is, we should make extra efforts with our "exotic" pets & provide higher quality supplements than we would to ourselves, as unlike humans our pets cannot complain, or seek out medical help, or quit eating the supplement when they feel ill. Also if they get ill there is less chance of a reptile recovering compared to a human as there is less medical research & expertise for reptiles.


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## Kapidolo Farms

TammyJ said:


> The topic has broadened from its title which is just about cuttlebone, to debating on other sources of calcium. I could say that a tortoise living in its natural habitat "in the wild" may or may not always get its requirement of calcium from what it finds to eat. But we will provide our kept tortoises with what we know they need so they should not then be deprived. If I give my redfoots all the best recommended food including opuntia, should they need a calcium supplement at all?


I think they all take advantage of calcium as a stand alone diet item when possible. Even snails, consumed by many species, have calcium rich shells, maybe that is in part why they eat them?

I offer calcium in the diet without any other supplement once a week, and leave little piles of the limestone flour on the feeding tile. I had used cuttle bone, but since that one leopard may have damaged themself with it. I looked far a new means to allow at-will consumption.


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## ricks45

My 2 five month sulcatas will eat the Exo terra calcium + D3 like it was crack cocaine. They turn up their noses at Mazuri food, But I can put the calcium on it they act like they cant get enough. I have even dumped a small pile in their food bowl and they will eat and lick up as much as I give them! Will too much calcium hurt them? Or will they stop when they have enough?


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## Kapidolo Farms

Maro2Bear said:


> Interesting Comment on this issue provided by an Amazon customer “JQ” regarding Calcium Carbonate/Limestone Powder being sold for poultry or reptiles.
> 
> 
> There are more pure forms available for pet reptiles if you search for "precipitated calcium carbonate". While raw ground limestone such as this is probably healthier than no supplementation, the long-term difference between the 97% (industrial/animal grade) vs 100% purity (precipitated, food/pharma grade) will probably add up in the organ health & overall vitality of your pet if you plan on it living more than just a few years, and being as healthy as possible in old age. Even if we assume the 3% of impurities are non-toxic (mostly silica/sand & heavy metals, e.g. lead), it is 3% extra stress on the reptile's digestive system to extract the same amount of necessary nutrition. Perhaps that extra stress could prove deadly if the reptile is sick or old, or could result in weight issues etc over the long term. So yes, buy this if you don't want your pet to die immediately, or you plan on culling it soon anyways (e.g. chickens), but if you want to maximize your pets long-term health & perhaps save on some vet bills later, precipitated calcium carbinate would be a smarter purchase.
> Also it should be noted that this non-precipitated ground grade is the type used in cheap human calcium supplements, which have been found to lead to dangerous lead accumulation in the elderly. I think the difference is, we should make extra efforts with our "exotic" pets & provide higher quality supplements than we would to ourselves, as unlike humans our pets cannot complain, or seek out medical help, or quit eating the supplement when they feel ill. Also if they get ill there is less chance of a reptile recovering compared to a human as there is less medical research & expertise for reptiles.




I found both are at 3.0 ppm lead, unless you get 'super low lead' which them has 0.3 ppm, 10x less. Pharma grade PCC still has lead in it. I'm not sure what 'cheap human calcium supplements' means exactly. 

I got these numbers from this manufacture http://www.cbminerals.com/calcium-carbonate which offers many grades and the other % of stuff that is not calcium carbonate. There is no 100% pure from what I could find, unless you are going for a few grams at many 100's $ for some kind of research grade. I work in a research lab and this is about as good as it gets https://www.fishersci.com/shop/products/calcium-carbonate-powder-certified-acs-fisher-chemical-2/C64500?gclid=CjwKCAiAgrfhBRA3EiwAnfF4tgDpof6Jumr5r7tfecc5XkT3sGkEJcM59bkCoojHZ8YX3uSDN1tVMxoCDtwQAvD_BwE&campaign=GblChem-US_FC-Salts&adwordskeyword=calcium carbonate&adgroup=Calcium-carbonate&ef_id=CjwKCAiAgrfhBRA3EiwAnfF4tgDpof6Jumr5r7tfecc5XkT3sGkEJcM59bkCoojHZ8YX3uSDN1tVMxoCDtwQAvD_BwE:G:s&s_kwcid=AL!3652!3!69923413278!p!!g!!calcium carbonate where a half kilo is $400. Which still has 0.001 ppm lead, indeed very near pure.

I'm good with 'acceptable for organic food' grade. "Pure" is a theoretical definition, not something you can buy.


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## Madkins007

A couple thoughts...

1. The problem with calcium supplements, including eggs, cuttlebone, and so on, is that for calcium to be absorbed, it has to be VERY FINE, otherwise very little is absorbed before it is passed through the system. Lots of supplements show no increase in calcium levels in the blood because the particles are just too big. (This is generally called 'bioavailability'.) However- even if most is excreted, what IS absorbed is helpful.

1a. Many sources I trust, like Dr. Maders 'Reptile Medicine and Surgery' book are not real fond of eggshells because of the grit and heavy metals. I don't know that their concern rises to the level of a 'don't do it' but perhaps using them more as a sort of weird treat?

2. Diet should be the main source of calcium (for humans, too). In the wild, many tortoise species are documented choosing calcium-rich plants over tastier options. 

3. Forest tortoises especially seem to take advantage of other calcium sources, probably because many of the available foods are nutrient-poor. Most tortoises seem to go for things like snails, occasional small animals or carcasses, calcium deposits, and so on. Some hingebacks even actively fish and presumably benefit from the bones in the fish. The question about bioavailability apply to these as well.

My bottom line has been to work hard to provide calcium in diet (there are a lot of good sources that we sometimes don't think of, like dandelion and mulberry leaves, etc.) BUT I also used a fine calcium powder tossed into a weekly meal as insurance. I did notice quickly that if I did not mix it in, they often did not seem to like the meal- possibly because it looks like mildew or something. 

You can kind of gauge how well a calcium supplement works by taking a dose of it and dumping it in some vinegar. The faster and more completely it dissolves, the better.


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## Grandpa Turtle 144

Madkins007 said:


> A couple thoughts...
> 
> 1. The problem with calcium supplements, including eggs, cuttlebone, and so on, is that for calcium to be absorbed, it has to be VERY FINE, otherwise very little is absorbed before it is passed through the system. Lots of supplements show no increase in calcium levels in the blood because the particles are just too big. (This is generally called 'bioavailability'.) However- even if most is excreted, what IS absorbed is helpful.
> 
> 1a. Many sources I trust, like Dr. Maders 'Reptile Medicine and Surgery' book are not real fond of eggshells because of the grit and heavy metals. I don't know that their concern rises to the level of a 'don't do it' but perhaps using them more as a sort of weird treat?
> 
> 2. Diet should be the main source of calcium (for humans, too). In the wild, many tortoise species are documented choosing calcium-rich plants over tastier options.
> 
> 3. Forest tortoises especially seem to take advantage of other calcium sources, probably because many of the available foods are nutrient-poor. Most tortoises seem to go for things like snails, occasional small animals or carcasses, calcium deposits, and so on. Some hingebacks even actively fish and presumably benefit from the bones in the fish. The question about bioavailability apply to these as well.
> 
> My bottom line has been to work hard to provide calcium in diet (there are a lot of good sources that we sometimes don't think of, like dandelion and mulberry leaves, etc.) BUT I also used a fine calcium powder tossed into a weekly meal as insurance. I did notice quickly that if I did not mix it in, they often did not seem to like the meal- possibly because it looks like mildew or something.
> 
> You can kind of gauge how well a calcium supplement works by taking a dose of it and dumping it in some vinegar. The faster and more completely it dissolves, the better.



So I understand you are saying ground chicken eggshells are the best . Cause there is less lead and heavy metals in them . 
Cause we people have been dumping lead and heavy metals in our water ways for 100 years !


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## Madkins007

Grandpa Turtle 144 said:


> So I understand you are saying ground chicken eggshells are the best . Cause there is less lead and heavy metals in them .
> Cause we people have been dumping lead and heavy metals in our water ways for 100 years !


No, I'm saying that sources I trust DO NOT recommend eggshells because of grit and heavy metals. I personally recommend very fine calcium powder used relatively infrequently.


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