# Thermal Imaging Study linked with Extra Virgin Coconut Oil



## glitch4200 (Jan 24, 2015)

Hi everyone. 
I want this separate from my "coconut oil" thread. http://www.tortoiseforum.org/index.php?threads/103782/

So if this is the wrong section for this I apologize. In the next week I am renting a nice thermo imaging camera from home Depot. It's not that expensive I found out to rent. 

http://www.flir.com/homedepot/

I want to take some thermal images on both my tortoises Nibbles and Pebbles. I want to know the effects of using Extra Virgin coconut oil on my tortoise which has been as often as 2x-3x a week for the last 3.5 months for Nibbles and month and half for Pebbles. I am using a thermal imaging camera which I'll post when I get it. It looks soo cool. 

My goal is to see the effects of my coconut oil application have had on the thermoregulation of my tortoises and if it at all affects the way a lamp heats my tortoises using widely bought bulbs like Mercury Vapor, 100w incedesent, and UV tube style bulb. Which is what I have lol. 

I am not going to subject them to anything beyond what they already do routine wise it's pretty much like clockwork with them. But I want as accurate as information as possible for the thermal pictures and relating it with my tortoises heating ability (or disability) in relation with my husbandry ways and extra Virgin coconut oil applications under these lamps. I know this sample is very small as it is only 2 tortoises getting recorded but it will at least show me if I am harming them or helping them by doing these applications in a thermo regulatory way. I want to share it with all of you. 

So I have narrowed my time frame to capture the heating up process with the camera from after a night of sleep and them waking up to bask. Both bask for awhile in the morning. Everyday like clockwork. Nibbles probably basks until he his in the mid 90s then seeks food. Pebbles on the other hand will feed the second food is there or at least guard it lol regardless of Temps reached. 
Nibbles won't eat until he gets nice and warm. Doesn't matter what I taunt him with lol. Pebbles will eat whenever at the moment. 

There are a couple reasons I am doing this and I am very curious about a couple things that I am subjecting my tortosies too. Obviously only love and compassion....  but still it tweaks me out about how much coconut oil I apply to them, despite very obvious positive differences (in my opinoin) I have seen since starting these applications. 

I kinda got my idea of using Extra Virgin coconut oil from Andy highfield and Francis Baines talk about the dehydrating effects of these lamps. Link: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/index.php?threads/83263/ 
Start on POST #66


And Francis Baines talk: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/index.php?threads/84606/ 

About how these lamps produce "unfiltered" IR-A and that tortoises are subjected to that day in and day out for hours on end. Coupled with dangerously low humidity as pointed out by Andy these lamps pose an issue for us keepers. This is because the absence of a atmosphere under indoor lamps means those lamps which emit high levels are 'unfiltered' IR-A don't pass through an atmosphere to become "filtered" which then means the water most available to take is from the tortoises shell and skin. They say it better then I can. 

Anyways, I chose to start using the coconut oil applications and doing what I was doing. It's all laid out in my coconut oil thread. So now I am here 3.5 months later after consistent applications ranging between 2x-3x a week and I want to know the best way to proceed on doing this correctly so it can be used possibly to help clarify EVCO and how it affects my tortoises thermal regulation as well as how these lamps heat the tortoise and how fast water is taken. 
I'll post all my equipment once I have it. But this is just my start. Any advice is more then welcome. 

-Shaun


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## G-stars (Jan 24, 2015)

Look forward to the results.


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## glitch4200 (Jan 25, 2015)

I HOPE YOUR READY! I could not help myself... So after work i got rented the Thermal Imaging Camera. This camera costs $2,895, i practically signed my life away to rent it -_-. Home Depot is charging 45$ for 4 hours or 75$ a day, but i found a loop hole and went before they were closing so i have all night with it and morning to use it for $45. Not a bad deal. So i hope your ready i got a lot of thermal images paired with the actual image. This thread is a way for me to analyze and store my data all in one safe place. I welcome comments. And i see this was moved to tortoise health. Fair enough.  Sorry but this is going to be image heavy.


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## wellington (Jan 25, 2015)

Can't wait to see what you get.


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## glitch4200 (Jan 25, 2015)

So after I ate and smoked, o_0. I took out my handy dandy FLIR-E6 thermal imaging camera and shot the following images: I would like to note Pebbles who is pictured in this set had a bath today and a full slathering of extra virgin coconut oil application at about 5:45pm. She has received EVCO applications since December 7th, 2014, 2x-3x a week rotating. I took these pictures at 9:30ish and i am still taking some now. I would also like to note that these all 3 lamps were turned on at 7:30am this morning. So run time was about 14 hours non stop, my fan was not on either. Usually it is to lower the ambient temps a bit and get a good breeze. Currently, her habitat is small but according to my images i can still provide a very decent temperature gradient provided the size she is living in.


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## glitch4200 (Jan 25, 2015)

Many more...


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## leigti (Jan 25, 2015)

This is interesting but I do have one problem with it.how do you know what the readings would've been if you weren't putting the coconut oil on them? To be scientific you need a control group without coconut oil and the group with it and have all the other factors the same such as temperature humidity type of light, species and age of tortoise, and other factors I'm not thinking of right now. Basically tortoises living in the same enclosure and some with coconut oil and some without. it would be best to have two or four or six tortoises from the same batch to make the two groups out of in my opinion. there may be somebody out there who would do this sort of scientific experiment. I would be interested to see what the more experienced breeders and keepers think about an experiment like this and if they would be willing to do it.


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## leigti (Jan 25, 2015)

Remind me, are you putting the oil just on the show are also their head and legs? I ask because from what I can tell on the thermal imaging the entire tortoise seems to be the same temperature.


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## glitch4200 (Jan 25, 2015)

leigti said:


> This is interesting but I do have one problem with it.how do you know what the readings would've been if you weren't putting the coconut oil on them? To be scientific you need a control group without coconut oil and the group with it and have all the other factors the same such as temperature humidity type of light, species and age of tortoise, and other factors I'm not thinking of right now. Basically tortoises living in the same enclosure and some with coconut oil and some without. it would be best to have two or four or six tortoises from the same batch to make the two groups out of in my opinion. there may be somebody out there who would do this sort of scientific experiment. I would be interested to see what the more experienced breeders and keepers think about an experiment like this and if they would be willing to do it.



I know.. unfortunately i started both on applications so i have no control group. but this gives me good data as to the current conditions and ability of my tortoises thermal regulation as well as how well i provide a true temperature gradient. The morning experiment will be the key. When they are cooled and just wake up for there morning bask. That will give me some idea how well they heat, if its even, and how long it takes to reach a core body temperature.


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## glitch4200 (Jan 25, 2015)

leigti said:


> Remind me, are you putting the oil just on the show are also their head and legs? I ask because from what I can tell on the thermal imaging the entire tortoise seems to be the same temperature.



Yes i am. I want to publicly say that my hypothesis is that this oil helps even out the way these lamps actually heat the tortoise... Instead of a localized spot it allows for slower more even heating. I still believe it keeps hydration in and prevents localized heating. Maybe I am right, maybe i am wrong. And i know 2 tortoises won't give you answer, as it is not enough sample to give conclusion.


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## leigti (Jan 25, 2015)

What is normal thermal regulation for a tortoise? You need to know that to know if the oil is doing what you want to do or not. I agree that it makes the shell like gorgeous but everything else is hard to know with out a control.


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## G-stars (Jan 25, 2015)

I see your point, to see if the heat is spread over the tortoise and not in one specific area with the oil. However, what are you comparing it to?


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## glitch4200 (Jan 25, 2015)

leigti said:


> What is normal thermal regulation for a tortoise? You need to know that to know if the oil is doing what you want to do or not. I agree that it makes the shell like gorgeous but everything else is hard to know with out a control.




My goal was to make sure my tortoises are still reaching a core temperature of at least upper 90's if it so chooses. Isn't it critical for proper digestion and synthesis of micronutrients? These couple pictures shows beginning evidence of even heating in my tortoises in my habitat, with the coconut oil present on skin and shell.. Even without a control.. I just may not be able to do full compare and contrast.


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## glitch4200 (Jan 25, 2015)

G-stars said:


> I see your point, to see if the heat is spread over the tortoise and not in one specific area with the oil. However, what are you comparing it to?



http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/infrared-sunlight-vs-basking-lamps.84606/ POST #13


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## leigti (Jan 25, 2015)

Your other thread gives a little better anecdotal information because you do have a before and after pictures. but without some "before" data I don't feel that this thread is helpful. i'm sorry to be such a wet blanket, I guess I am just more of a scientist. I know that you're very passionate about this and you mean well and you're not hurting your tortoises as far as we know. And I know you don't want to get more tortoises and not do the oil etc. and I don't blame you. But please don't get too hooked on the information you are getting from the infrared camera. Please if there is anybody else out there who has suggestions please share them. I am interested in this so please don't take what I'm saying as criticism. if it was a different time in my life I would gladly do the experiment but I just can't now.


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## glitch4200 (Jan 25, 2015)

G-stars said:


> I see your point, to see if the heat is spread over the tortoise and not in one specific area with the oil. However, what are you comparing it to?


and this from http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/what-is-the-physiology-behind-pyramiding.83263/page-4 POST #66


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## glitch4200 (Jan 25, 2015)

leigti said:


> Your other thread gives a little better anecdotal information because you do have a before and after pictures. but without some "before" data I don't feel that this thread is helpful. i'm sorry to be such a wet blanket, I guess I am just more of a scientist. I know that you're very passionate about this and you mean well and you're not hurting your tortoises as far as we know. And I know you don't want to get more tortoises and not do the oil etc. and I don't blame you. But please don't get too hooked on the information you are getting from the infrared camera. Please if there is anybody else out there who has suggestions please share them. I am interested in this so please don't take what I'm saying as criticism. if it was a different time in my life I would gladly do the experiment but I just can't now.



I completely understand. But maybe putting this out there will allow someone else who is willing to take thermal imaging of there tortoise who has never received a coconut oil treatment, then we could compare this. I will definitely try very hard to not draw any conclusion, i know scientifically this is a poor experiment. But at least i'll have something to work with, and over the years who knows what will happen. I have a male and female russian, soo ya never know. I do want to raise babies. So at a later point if that happends, i will be able to have a control and a experimental group.


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## glitch4200 (Jan 25, 2015)

The picture with the heated grid like pattern on the tortoise above is what can happen with these lamps, these red lit areas are rich blood vessel areas that are heating up and vibrating as a result of the intense "unfiltred" IR-A. This does not happen in nature... This is what i want to see.. If this happening to my tortoises which each have 3 lamps in each habitat when they go to heat back up in the morning.


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## biochemnerd808 (Jan 25, 2015)

One thing you need to keep in mind is that in order to be able to compare your images with the images in the other study, you need to calibrate your thermal imaging camera to the same scale as theirs. In yours, most everything shows up as orange and red. It looks like yellow is the hottest in yours? Your pictures show nicely how there are different temperatures present in the surroundings. The shells are mostly orange, with some yellow - which means that there are some different temperatures present on the shell. is there any way to calibrate the thermal imaging so that there is a wider differentiation on the actual shell? You would need very accurate and sensitive equipment to get a usable reading. Otherwise it's just confirming that 'yup, that tortoise is warm'. 
Interesting hypothesis, but I agree with earlier statements that without a) a control group (no coco oil), and without b) a statistically significant test group population, this is unlikely to make waves, except for maybe with the sheer volume of posts you are writing.


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## glitch4200 (Jan 25, 2015)

biochemnerd808 said:


> One thing you need to keep in mind is that in order to be able to compare your images with the images in the other study, you need to calibrate your thermal imaging camera to the same scale as theirs. In yours, most everything shows up as orange and red. It looks like yellow is the hottest in yours? Your pictures show nicely how there are different temperatures present in the surroundings. The shells are mostly orange, with some yellow - which means that there are some different temperatures present on the shell. is there any way to calibrate the thermal imaging so that there is a wider differentiation on the actual shell? You would need very accurate and sensitive equipment to get a usable reading. Otherwise it's just confirming that 'yup, that tortoise is warm'.
> Interesting hypothesis, but I agree with earlier statements that without a) a control group (no coco oil), and without b) a statistically significant test group population, this is unlikely to make waves, except for maybe with the sheer volume of posts you are writing.


 
I can actually i just figured it out.. I can calibrate it to certain footage and get more indepth reading at the length, I apologize this is my very first time doing anything like this or using equipment like this.. Amateur over here . I know i am going to make a lot of mistakes with how i present myself and my thoughts ideas and information. Haha thank you all for being patient with me! I am very grateful for suggestions and input. I know this a very good thermal imaging camera, i probably just dont know how to use it correctly to portray what i am trying to do here. So ill probably just end up with a whole bunch of Pebble and Nibbles habiats and Thermal Imaging selfies haha. But maybe one day this could be compared to someone willing to try this


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## glitch4200 (Jan 25, 2015)

My Nibbles habitat in thermal imaging after all 3 lamps were turned on at 7:30am this morning. I didn't have my fan so it was a little to warm in spots for me. This is unhydrated substrate. I will show the difference between wet and dry, just because i want to lol


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## biochemnerd808 (Jan 25, 2015)

I don't mean to be negative Nancy, but I am a little surprised this is being presented as something 'new' or 'revolutionary' (is it?) - people have said for a long time that putting coconut oil on tortoise shells is 'less harmful' than a lot of other stuff (e.g. mineral oil or that wax stuff). However, when people said it was Ok, the intent was certainly not to recommend daily use. 

My tortoises have beautiful smooth shells, and I do NOT schmeer their shells with stuff. They spend April-October outdoors getting muddy, and they spend Dec-March in a fridge at 40 degrees, and the couple months in between, they have large tortoise tables with high quality lighting. I mist them several times daily, and I leave dirt on their shells. I don't think coconut oil would harm them. However, I don't find that it is necessary to achieve a healthy, beautiful tortoise shell. Beautiful shells are a reflection of a healthy lifestyle, so first and foremost, I think a tortoise keeper should spend energy (and money if necessary) on providing best possible food (widely varied dark leafy greens), ample space (preferably outdoors for part of the year at least), and high quality lighting and supplements. 

Do your tortoises get to spend time outside?


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## glitch4200 (Jan 25, 2015)

Nibbles is buried deep under the substrate tonight


, I cant even detect him in the thermal imaging...


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## glitch4200 (Jan 25, 2015)

biochemnerd808 said:


> I don't mean to be negative Nancy, but I am a little surprised this is being presented as something 'new' or 'revolutionary' (is it?) - people have said for a long time that putting coconut oil on tortoise shells is 'less harmful' than a lot of other stuff (e.g. mineral oil or that wax stuff). However, when people said it was Ok, the intent was certainly not to recommend daily use.
> 
> My tortoises have beautiful smooth shells, and I do NOT schmeer their shells with stuff. They spend April-October outdoors getting muddy, and they spend Dec-March in a fridge at 40 degrees, and the couple months in between, they have large tortoise tables with high quality lighting. I mist them several times daily, and I leave dirt on their shells. I don't think coconut oil would harm them. However, I don't find that it is necessary to achieve a healthy, beautiful tortoise shell. Beautiful shells are a reflection of a healthy lifestyle, so first and foremost, I think a tortoise keeper should spend energy (and money if necessary) on providing best possible food (widely varied dark leafy greens), ample space (preferably outdoors for part of the year at least), and high quality lighting and supplements.
> 
> Do your tortoises get to spend time outside?




Unfortunately they do not get to spend much time outside. I live in Illinois, where i live in the suburbs i have packs of coyotes, skunks, hawks, possoms, and racoons and stupid *** teenagers that roam freely and often into my yard since i live by big forest preserve. So they can not have an outdoor enclosure. I do bring them outside a couple times a week when it is nice, and this summer ill be making a fully supervised habitat that i can watch outside. But 90% of there time is spent indoors under these "unfiltered" lamps.


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## glitch4200 (Jan 25, 2015)

Obviously, i am not saying you need extra virgin coconut oil to raise a healthy tortoise. As decades of peoples tortoise keeping and research has proved otherwise. But, i am not dismissing the fact that possibly this oil can offer something more then what is widely believed. I am offering the best diet i can buy, buying all the mixed bags of weed and flowers i can find to give them the absolute most variety possible. Rotating my diet every 3 to 4 days, consistently keeping tabs what i feed each week/month. I am trying my best.


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## glitch4200 (Jan 25, 2015)

More pics of Pebbles thermal imaging today before she went to bed,


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## biochemnerd808 (Jan 25, 2015)

One way in which you could expand their diet would be to plant some of the excellent broadleaf seed mixes that are available.
@TylerStewart has a great mix available here: http://www.tortoisesupply.com/TestudoMix
and Carolina Pet Supply has one, too: http://www.carolinapetsupply.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=41

This would allow you to expand their diet.

If you have yard space, you could build a fully enclosed dog-kennel type enclosure out of chain link fencing, with cemented in metal support structure. @Tom has done this for his Russian torts. You could even add a lock, to keep humans out.  Illinois gets very cold during the winter, but there are definitely some summer months that would allow for many hours of healthy outdoor sun.


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## glitch4200 (Jan 25, 2015)

biochemnerd808 said:


> One way in which you could expand their diet would be to plant some of the excellent broadleaf seed mixes that are available.
> @TylerStewart has a great mix available here: http://www.tortoisesupply.com/TestudoMix
> and Carolina Pet Supply has one, too: http://www.carolinapetsupply.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=41
> 
> ...



This would be perfect as i have a lot of yard space. But, currently until April, until i move into my house. I will not be able to set up a outdoor habitat. Eventually, if this house gets approved. Ill be able to set up a section for them securely. But until then they are inside. Which i foresee will be awhile until i get settled.

I actually have just ordered some seeds and ill be growing them soon. Along with , tortoise herbal mix, a foliage mix and my rotating diet. Its the best i think i can do in my current situation. Both my tortoises will get a upgraded home soon as well.

And sadness they are all out now..


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## leigti (Jan 25, 2015)

Can you build a nice 6 foot tall private fence? Or even a six-foot tall chain-link? then you could build an enclosure with hardware cloth below and above to keep the critters out. you can also bring your tortoises and at night because that's when most of the bad critters are out anyway. Even just a couple months of daily outdoor environment and the natural sunlight will help. I live in Washington state and my tortoise is inside about six months out of the year. I feel bad about that but at least the other six months she has a great environment to be in. Definitely put some effort into more outdoor time for your tortoises when weather allows. My enclosure is then has a class that I can put a padlock through to keep people out if I wanted to. I Think a little bit of moderation would go a long ways in your experiment. Many many people here on this forum have indoor and outdoor enclosures. I do realize that there are situations were tortoises cannot be outside at all.and in these situations much more time money and effort has to be put into their care. I know it is the situation that you are exploring with The coconut oil. 
I guess what I am trying to say is don't put all your eggs in one basket, don't expect the coconut oil to make up for the rest of the environment and care. I have read your coconut oil thread and I have started putting it on my tortoise every couple weeks. She is wild caught and has a very damaged shell. but I probably will not put it on in the summer when she is outside. I don't want anything coming between her and sunshine, rain, dirt etc.


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## glitch4200 (Jan 25, 2015)

leigti said:


> Can you build a nice 6 foot tall private fence? Or even a six-foot tall chain-link? then you could build an enclosure with hardware cloth below and above to keep the critters out. you can also bring your tortoises and at night because that's when most of the bad critters are out anyway. Even just a couple months of daily outdoor environment and the natural sunlight will help. I live in Washington state and my tortoise is inside about six months out of the year. I feel bad about that but at least the other six months she has a great environment to be in. Definitely put some effort into more outdoor time for your tortoises when weather allows. My enclosure is then has a class that I can put a padlock through to keep people out if I wanted to. I Think a little bit of moderation would go a long ways in your experiment. Many many people here on this forum have indoor and outdoor enclosures. I do realize that there are situations were tortoises cannot be outside at all.and in these situations much more time money and effort has to be put into their care. I know it is the situation that you are exploring with The coconut oil.
> I guess what I am trying to say is don't put all your eggs in one basket, don't expect the coconut oil to make up for the rest of the environment and care. I have read your coconut oil thread and I have started putting it on my tortoise every couple weeks. She is wild caught and has a very damaged shell. but I probably will not put it on in the summer when she is outside. I don't want anything coming between her and sunshine, rain, dirt etc.




My application of EVCO is only in combination with the best diet i can buy or grow that rotates weekly (with TNT supp), along with decent sustained ambient humidity of around 60%, although by the end of day its back down to 30% or lower.. I provide humid moist hides that these tortoises often choose to sleep in, as well as a proper temperature gradient, access to sun when i can, i soak both of them almost every single day (which they now drink water from there bath every single day), and i take them out in my living room squared off by unclimbable objects (although they try hard) for running around. (totally supervised , No cats or Dogs). I can not stress this enough, that this is not trying to replace any important husbandry technique already established that is needed to raise a healthy, good looking tortoise. I am merely trying to work towards finding out if extra virigin coconut oil has any benefits a tortoise keeper can possibly use.


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## leigti (Jan 25, 2015)

I appreciate what you are trying to figure out. The problem is you don't have enough information to get a real answer. you will just be guessing not knowing. You can measure every minute from now till the cows come home and it won't matter, because you don't have a baseline control group. I hate to see so much enthusiasm and energy wasted.


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## glitch4200 (Jan 25, 2015)

leigti said:


> I appreciate what you are trying to figure out. The problem is you don't have enough information to get a real answer. you will just be guessing not knowing. You can measure every minute from now till the cows come home and it won't matter, because you don't have a baseline control group. I hate to see so much enthusiasm and energy wasted.



It's never a waste lol who knows if down the line I can come back to this information for support in some way. I mean I am really just trying to understand them as best as I can from different angles. To be honest, I just find these pictures interesting, I don't see many people going out , renting a almost $3000 thermal imaging camera just because he is curious about some stuff and posting there thoughts and pictures out loud for people to judge and put there two sense in. I may not doing it the ol scientific way that people crave so dearly. But at least these ideas are out there for people to ponder. I just want feedback on what people think that's all.


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## WithLisa (Jan 25, 2015)

Not sure, but some pictures seem to be some kind of overlay of a photo and the thermal picture? The last ones are better.

The scale is always between the hottest and coldest temperature in the picture, so there is no point in making a picture of the enclosure with the heat lamp (it just shows that the lamp shade is 200°, but it says nothing about the enclosure).
I would try to make pictures of just the tortoise with as little surroundings as possible.

Maybe you can find another owner that would lend you an unoiled tortoise for the experiment?


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## leigti (Jan 26, 2015)

The scientific method is there for a reason. Do you even know what it is? I think not. Not following it will not be helpful in anyway. you can ponder, toss around ideas, ask opinions, but you will not get an answer.not an accurate answer anyway.if you were fine with that then that is your right. but don't expect other people to give you any sort of in formed answer without all the facts.


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## glitch4200 (Jan 26, 2015)

leigti said:


> The scientific method is there for a reason. Do you even know what it is? I think not. Not following it will not be helpful in anyway. you can ponder, toss around ideas, ask opinions, but you will not get an answer.not an accurate answer anyway.if you were fine with that then that is your right. but don't expect other people to give you any sort of in formed answer without all the facts.



I mean i best know what the scientific method is being a psychology major and all... I understand your need for a control group. I can't provide one. Maybe someone who happends to stumble upon this becomes curious like I am and can provide a control group of russian tortoises who have never received EVCO applications. Who knows maybe one day ill be able to come back and use these photos for reference just for myself. Or if i have tortoise babies, ill be able to provide a better experiment.


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## glitch4200 (Jan 26, 2015)




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## HLogic (Jan 26, 2015)

Two points... The control group would need to be in the same environment as the test group so as to expose them to the same heating, lighting, etc. Having another keeper perform a similar experiment will not work because of the differences. You are measuring surface temperature not core temperature. Core temperature is measured from inside.

Interesting data may be gleaned from this study (and experience with an interesting device gained) but comparative analysis and conclusions regarding the efficacy of the treatment should be avoided considering the limitations of the current experiment.


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## Yvonne G (Jan 26, 2015)

It's been a very interesting thread and I appreciate what you're trying to do.

I was a bit worried about the temp of the tortoise. He always shows pretty darned hot.

Thanks for taking the time and trouble to do this and sharing it with us.


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## glitch4200 (Jan 26, 2015)

Yvonne G said:


> It's been a very interesting thread and I appreciate what you're trying to do.
> 
> I was a bit worried about the temp of the tortoise. He always shows pretty darned hot.
> 
> Thanks for taking the time and trouble to do this and sharing it with us.



I appreciate that. Thank you. And she is so warm because she sits under the heat lamp all day lol. So when i got home last night, there she was in her usual position, soaking up those "unfiltered" rays with the same cute little smirk as always.  Same with nibbles he can choose to be cool if he wants but chooses to be that warm.


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## wellington (Jan 26, 2015)

I agree with Yvonne and I think some of you should lighten up,and appreciate what is being done. They never said this was a scientific experiment. There is soemthing to be learned here and it's just interesting to see. If you just take it for what it is, you will see that if nothing else, the oil seems to have evened out the heat on the tortoise what the pics from the other experiment shows hot spots. Yes we new this was the case from these bulbs, but we didn't know the oil would even it out and to me that is what appears to be happening. Give them a break. At least they are trying to do something and share it with us all.

I would like to see how long the tortoise stays that temp and what the temp,would be taken out of the enclosure. I appreciate you taking the time and money to do this and sharing it with us.


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## glitch4200 (Jan 26, 2015)

wellington said:


> I agree with Yvonne and I think some of you should lighten up,and appreciate what is being done. They never said this was a scientific experiment. There is soemthing to be learned here and it's just interesting to see. If you just take it for what it is, you will see that if nothing else, the oil seems to have evened out the heat on the tortoise what the pics from the other experiment shows hot spots. Yes we new this was the case from these bulbs, but we didn't know the oil would even it out and to me that is what appears to be happening. Give them a break. At least they are trying to do something and share it with us all.
> 
> I would like to see how long the tortoise stays that temp and what the temp,would be taken out of the enclosure. I appreciate you taking the time and money to do this and sharing it with us.



I appreciate the kind words. It means a lot. I am just putting this out there people, take it for what its worth. I have like 300 more compare and contrast pics of this morning bask for both tortoises. From cool to fully heated. And i see uneven hot spots as a result of these lamps, and some of them even mimic what i should everyone with the grid heating pattern. I find it fascinating, despite it not proving anything concrete. It shows me a lot about them and how the heat up.


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## glitch4200 (Jan 26, 2015)

wellington said:


> I agree with Yvonne and I think some of you should lighten up,and appreciate what is being done. They never said this was a scientific experiment. There is soemthing to be learned here and it's just interesting to see. If you just take it for what it is, you will see that if nothing else, the oil seems to have evened out the heat on the tortoise what the pics from the other experiment shows hot spots. Yes we new this was the case from these bulbs, but we didn't know the oil would even it out and to me that is what appears to be happening. Give them a break. At least they are trying to do something and share it with us all.
> 
> I would like to see how long the tortoise stays that temp and what the temp,would be taken out of the enclosure. I appreciate you taking the time and money to do this and sharing it with us.



Thank you.. It means a lot. This may not be perfect. But i don't see anyone else doing anything like that, that i can find. I think its a unique perspective from my point of view and I am just toying with all of this making sure i do not hurt my tortoises and to see the effects (if any) can be noted as a result of my husbandry techniques.


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## glitch4200 (Jan 26, 2015)

So i will start with Pebbles, since she was up first and I want to try and do this in order, so i can post all of them.. I apologize for such a picture heavy thread. I start with a just emerged Pebbles from her sleeping spot last night, the first pics are of her just getting under those lamps.


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## glitch4200 (Jan 26, 2015)

I will continue posting them in order, as time goes forward...


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## glitch4200 (Jan 26, 2015)

I start to see localized heating around the rich areas of blood between the scutes..


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## glitch4200 (Jan 26, 2015)

I mean do you see it? Uneven heating? I doo.... Even with all my extra virgin coconut oil applications. All my applications were spread evenly throughout the entire shell. Soo its not like there is pools of oil where those hot spots are..


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## glitch4200 (Jan 27, 2015)

So i finally started pairing my times with the pictures. I would like to show you all these pictures within time frames. These first couple pairings are my tortoise pebbles when she was just first getting up. You can see her cute little head poking out, in set #2, #3


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## glitch4200 (Jan 27, 2015)

Lights were turned on at 8:25am and Pebbles finally emerged at 9:02am. I took these photos as soon as she emerged from her sleeping spot from above. These pairs are taken withing 12 minutes of first exposure to the basking bulbs. This all is in just 12 minutes, in order.


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## glitch4200 (Jan 27, 2015)

These images are still within 12 minutes, still in order of time.


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## glitch4200 (Jan 27, 2015)

This is where it becomes interesting, i begin to see the first localized "hot spot" appear. First pair.. Still within 12 minutes since beginning to bask. He finally turns to warm up his back end. NOW LOOK AT THAT YAWN!!


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## glitch4200 (Jan 27, 2015)

As he moves to heat the backside...


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## glitch4200 (Jan 27, 2015)

After 45 minutes under the "unfiltered" bulbs... I begin to see more localized heating but the tortoise is slowly warming up...


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## glitch4200 (Jan 27, 2015)

After 56 minutes from lights on we see this....


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## glitch4200 (Jan 27, 2015)

*SO finally Nibbles wakes up.... He woke up at 9:56am. I took this nice picture of him nice and cold from his nights sleep. First set is him completely buried under substrate. Then he finally emerges, but slowly.
*


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## glitch4200 (Jan 27, 2015)

*Finally king nibbles presents himself to the basking bulbs...*


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## marginatawhisperer (Jan 28, 2015)

I have read that in the wild tortoises get plant oil on their bodies by passing through vegetation, and many species, also in dry climates, are "manipulating" moisture exposure by choosing where to go, under leaves, bushes or in burrows. The idea of applying plant oil in an indoor enclosure is therefore very good.
Whether it helps distribute heat evenly I cannot say, but the idea is sound. The pictures also show some very well to do tortoises. My compliments!
By the way: Does your house have a balcony on a second floor? It could give you an enclosure. I have the same problem with animals and criminals.
Regards from 60 degrees north


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## HLogic (Jan 28, 2015)

glitch4200 said:


> The picture with the heated grid like pattern on the tortoise above is what can happen with these lamps, these red lit areas are rich blood vessel areas that are heating up and vibrating as a result of the intense "unfiltred" IR-A. This does not happen in nature...





marginatawhisperer said:


> I have read that in the wild tortoises get plant oil on their bodies by passing through vegetation...



@glitch4200 - Where did you hear this does not happen in nature?

@marginatawhisperer - Where did you read that wild torts get plant oil on their bodies?

Both - just curious as I have not seen any literature (including the web) that makes these claims.

My observations of the FLIR images follows:

Something has changed between the grid pattern images and the most recent ones (recalibration, sensitivity adjustment, distance, focus, spectral filtering?).

What I see is rather rapid *surface* warming of the areas closest to the heat source, as expected, with an even more rapid heating of the darker pigmented regions of the same and proximal areas, as is also expected. A gradual increase in *surface* temps of the areas surrounding those closest to the heat source is then noted - due to irradiation and conductance from the already warmed areas.

Something that may not be as obvious is the difference between the surface heating of the carapace vs. the cooler *core* temperature as demonstrated by the temp/color of the extremities (head & forelimbs). I am reasonably sure this shows vascular shunting (search "shunting in tortoises", "intracardiac shunting" or "pulmonary shunting") which is used to direct blood flow to/from specific anatomical regions - usually pulmonary vs. systemic but also peripheral. The smaller masses of the head & forelimbs, when exposed to solar radiation would heat faster and thus provide a mechanism of more quickly warming. The same effect is less likely from a low wattage heat source in which the radiation drops markedly with slight increases in distance from the source vs. the infinitesimally small reduction in radiation a few inches greater distance makes with respect to the sun.

There are more observations but I feel they don't add to the conversation and/or have been covered previously.


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## marginatawhisperer (Jan 28, 2015)

Answer to HLogic:
I read it some years ago on a Danish website: marginata.dk,
The author is Otto H. Madsen. He is especially interested in European tortoises. I called him today and he confirmed it.
Where he got from I do not know, but I see the point, and agree. Not much oil of course, but seemingly enough.
He warns about oiling too much with the wrong oils, as it can lead to fungus growth in the scutes. Regarding coconut oil I do not know.
But I eat it with pleasure in my Food.
Personally I use a waterbased hand lotion from time to time on mine.
I recommend the website, also for general information.
Regards from here


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## glitch4200 (Jan 28, 2015)

HLogic said:


> @glitch4200 - Where did you hear this does not happen in nature?




From what i have gathered, the sun which emits "filtered" IR-A comes through our water dense atmosphere and gently warms the tortoise who is basking in the natural open wild. This is what we want correct? The sun is god in this scenario by providing the "filtered" IR-A needed to gently and nicely warm the tortoise well. On the other hand we have indoor basking bulbs of all kinds.. This is needed for the indoor kept tortoise to maintain the appropriate temperatures needed for all areas of development and sustained living. We all know this. But. These bulbs emit "unfiltered" IR-A, this is very important and the catch. This "unfiltered" IR-A lacks the moisture underneath it to effectively create "filtered" IR-A. So to explain the idea of this, our atmosphere contains a very large quantity of water vapor. This water vapor is what is being absorbed by by the suns IR-A spectrum. This spectrum is water hungry. Absorbing all the water it can find. If there is not enough water present. The emission is "unfiltered". If there is a enough water present (our atmosphere) then it is "filtered". 

Here is the thread explaining it way better then I can by someone who knows so much more than me. 
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/infrared-sunlight-vs-basking-lamps.84606/

So now we get to the point of this not being like nature.. The sun does not emit "unfiltered" IR-A,B, or C. It emits "filtered" IR-A. So now we have a big problem when you think about a tortoise basking day in and day out between 5-12 hours... Now couple this with the idea that all the water being taken from the lamps drastically lowers humidity levels under those lamps and surrounding enviornemt. Now think of a keeper failing to keep the humidity up atleast 50% or more, providing low soaking, and poor access to drinking water... (which i know no one condones here on this forum, but i can't say that is the case elsewhere.........*cough* facebook tortoise groups *cough*.). You have effectively taken all possible ways to hydrate a tortoise if this is the case... and are exposing them to harmful dehydrating lamps "unnatural" unlike to being in the wild. Can you not see the possibility of having SO many issues arise from cronic drhydration.. If counter measures are not sought after like soaking more often, providing better humidity and the best access to clean drinking water, then you have a problem. This is my opinion though..  A reason why i started all this...


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## glitch4200 (Jan 28, 2015)

Both - just curious as I have not seen any literature (including the web) that makes these claims.

My observations of the FLIR images follows:

Something has changed between the grid pattern images and the most recent ones (recalibration, sensitivity adjustment, distance, focus, spectral filtering?).[/QUOTE]


Yes, those pictures were not mine. I got them from here. He also talks about dehydrating lamps as well .: POST #66 

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/what-is-the-physiology-behind-pyramiding.83263/page-4


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## glitch4200 (Jan 28, 2015)

this thread is in link with my original thread on "coconut oil" 

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/coconut-oil.103782/page-13#post-1031761


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## HLogic (Jan 28, 2015)

glitch4200 said:


> Yes, those pictures were not mine. I got them from here. He also talks about dehydrating lamps as well .: POST #66
> 
> http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/what-is-the-physiology-behind-pyramiding.83263/page-4



OK, didn't realize the grid image wasn't yours...


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## HLogic (Jan 28, 2015)

glitch4200 said:


> ...This water vapor is what is being absorbed by by the suns IR-A spectrum. This spectrum is water hungry. Absorbing all the water it can find. If there is not enough water present. The emission is "unfiltered". If there is a enough water present (our atmosphere) then it is "filtered".
> 
> Here is the thread explaining it way better then I can by someone who knows so much more than me.
> http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/infrared-sunlight-vs-basking-lamps.84606/



Perhaps a little help in understanding what was being said by the post you referenced by lilacdragon would be of value. Please refer to the first chart, Solar Radiation Spectrum, as a visual aid. We can ignore the 5250 C Blackbody Spectrum as it is irrelevant to the clarification.

Water and water vapor absorb IR-A not the other way around (electromagnetic waves cannot absorb anything). The absorption of IR by water causes it to heat. Heat causes evaporation of water which if not contained will cause the dehydration of an object containing water.

Note the yellow graph (solar radiation above the atmosphere) and that it maintains a smooth but declining power curve throughout the spectrum including IR-B & [if the graph was expanded] IR-C. The sun emits unfiltered wavelengths - just like a coffee percolator 'emits' unfiltered coffee.

Note the red graph (solar radiation at sea level), particularly the dips labelled H2O. These are the wavelengths that are being absorbed by water and water vapor. That absorption (i.e. removal of part of the spectrum) is what is referred to as filtered - just like sunglasses remove parts of the spectrum and provide filtered light. Much of the spectrum is filtered (absorbed, reflected or refracted) by dust, gases and other obstacles in the path of that radiation as can be seen in the unlabeled dips in the sea level graph (like UV-C is mostly filtered by the atmosphere [thankfully!]). Just like a coffee filter removes the grounds from percolated coffee yielding filtered coffee.

I hope this helps to clarify what is really happening. I am not trying to say that coconut oil (or any other hydrophobic material) covering the carapace won't potentially reduce the water loss via evaporation. Actually, I would expect that some spreading of the heating will occur if only simply by conduction of heat through the oil. Which is why we use oil to fry stuff!


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## glitch4200 (Jan 28, 2015)

HLogic said:


> OK, didn't realize the grid image wasn't yours...



Nope. it was not. So my comparison isn't really viable... But i just have it to give me an idea... It is interesting because i see the same type of pattern on some of my thermal imaging. And looking at all the other backround data. It makes sense.. The hottest areas are the areas filled with blood and moisture. These are heating up as a result of "unfiltered" IR-A from these lamps. Also the fact that is is uneven means they must turn and heat different parts of there body up because of this.. At least in my tortoises and in there envirornment.. I am wondering if those constant localized hot spots are a reason of intense keratin proliferation as a result of trying to counteract the uneven beam style "hot spots". It makes me wonder..


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## glitch4200 (Jan 28, 2015)

HLogic said:


> Perhaps a little help in understanding what was being said by the post you referenced by lilacdragon would be of value. Please refer to the first chart, Solar Radiation Spectrum, as a visual aid. We can ignore the 5250 C Blackbody Spectrum as it is irrelevant to the clarification.
> 
> Water and water vapor absorb IR-A not the other way around (electromagnetic waves cannot absorb anything). The absorption of IR by water causes it to heat. Heat causes evaporation of water which if not contained will cause the dehydration of an object containing water.
> 
> ...




Thank you for that clarification. I really appreciate that. I interpreted the idea of "filtration" oppositely then. So are you saying there is possibility to spread out the heating as a result of these lamps because of conduction through the oil? So essentially would the oil would be "locking" in moisture or just distributing heat thus preventing water evaporation and some localized heating as a result of these lamps?


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## HLogic (Jan 28, 2015)

glitch4200 said:


> Thank you for that clarification. I really appreciate that. I interpreted the idea of "filtration" oppositely then. So are you saying there is possibility to spread out the heating as a result of these lamps because of conduction through the oil? So essentially would the oil would be "locking" in moisture or just distributing heat thus preventing water evaporation and some localized heating as a result of these lamps?



The oil could be doing both. That's where the control group and variations on the theme provide additional data from which conclusions can be gleaned.


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## glitch4200 (Jan 28, 2015)

HLogic said:


> The oil could be doing both. That's where the control group and variations on the theme provide additional data from which conclusions can be gleaned.



I see. I thought so. Thank you for your imput. This is why I like the forum. So many different perspectives and awesome clarification. I have many more thermal images to post showing more heating throughout the day. They both do heat up very well eventualy, but I see localized hot spots all over...


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## WithLisa (Jan 28, 2015)

HLogic said:


> Actually, I would expect that some spreading of the heating will occur if only simply by conduction of heat through the oil. Which is why we use oil to fry stuff!


I always thought the thermal diffusivity of oil is very low (that's why mammals use adipose tissue for insolation). So I assume that the EVCO would rather slow down the process of heating up. But physics has never been my strong point, maybe you can explain this to me?


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## HLogic (Jan 28, 2015)

It is compared to, say, air or water but is much higher than keratin or bone.


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## WithLisa (Jan 28, 2015)

But the keratin and bone is still there, so isn't the oil just an additional insulating layer?


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## glitch4200 (Jan 28, 2015)

WithLisa said:


> But the keratin and bone is still there, so isn't the oil just an additional insulating layer?




If that was the case wouldn't I see an overheating tortoise ? I see localized hot spots but not general overall overheating.


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## WithLisa (Jan 28, 2015)

Why overheated? An insulation does both - it keeps warm things warm and cold things cold. I believe the shell would warm up better/faster without the oil. 
I looked it up, thermal diffusivity of oil seems to be about 0.1 and bone is about 0.3 (depends on density,....). But maybe I'm wrong in my reasoning.


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## glitch4200 (Jan 28, 2015)

marginatawhisperer said:


> I have read that in the wild tortoises get plant oil on their bodies by passing through vegetation, and many species, also in dry climates, are "manipulating" moisture exposure by choosing where to go, under leaves, bushes or in burrows. The idea of applying plant oil in an indoor enclosure is therefore very good.
> Whether it helps distribute heat evenly I cannot say, but the idea is sound. The pictures also show some very well to do tortoises. My compliments!
> By the way: Does your house have a balcony on a second floor? It could give you an enclosure. I have the same problem with animals and criminals.
> Regards from 60 degrees north




I don't unfortunately.. just a massive backyard thst is open with free range , German Shepard sized coyotes, massive skunks, possums and raccoons. I parallel a big forest preserve. I appreciate the offer, quite so.


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## glitch4200 (Feb 4, 2015)

WithLisa said:


> Why overheated? An insulation does both - it keeps warm things warm and cold things cold. I believe the shell would warm up better/faster without the oil.
> I looked it up, thermal diffusivity of oil seems to be about 0.1 and bone is about 0.3 (depends on density,....). But maybe I'm wrong in my reasoning.




So if it is a thermal diffuser even as small as .1 , couldn't that still make even the slightest difference in the way it spreads heat over the carapace


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## WithLisa (Feb 4, 2015)

glitch4200 said:


> So if it is a thermal diffuser even as small as .1 , couldn't that still make even the slightest difference in the way it spreads heat over the carapace


If my reasoning is correct (as I said, Physics was never my strong point), it makes a difference, the heat would spread slower than without the oil. But that's purely hypothetical.
Also a shiny shell reflects more light, a dull surface warms up faster.


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## leigti (Feb 4, 2015)

glitch4200 said:


> I don't unfortunately.. just a massive backyard thst is open with free range , German Shepard sized coyotes, massive skunks, possums and raccoons. I parallel a big forest preserve. I appreciate the offer, quite so.


Do you own the property? If so can't you build a fence? you can also build a very sturdy enclosure and bring your tortoise in at night. most of the really harmful critters are out at night anyway. just wondering, natural sunlight is the best thing for a tortoise if at all possible.


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## glitch4200 (Feb 4, 2015)

leigti said:


> Do you own the property? If so can't you build a fence? you can also build a very sturdy enclosure and bring your tortoise in at night. most of the really harmful critters are out at night anyway. just wondering, natural sunlight is the best thing for a tortoise if at all possible.




No I don't own the property. And my dad wouldn't let me do it at his house. The house I'll be renting , he won't let me do it either, unless eventually I buy the house that is .. 

I know the sun is the best .. I will be giving them both lots of sun time this summer.


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## Yvonne G (Apr 8, 2017)

@glitch4200 - Do you have any updates for us? More pictures?


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## drew54 (Oct 26, 2018)

It is my understanding that because most other oils and coconut oil traps heat. So, if you apply after the tort warms up it should hold and help evenly keep the distributed evenly more so than applying when the tort is cool. Also, it is my understanding that because coconut oil is preferred over aloe for sunburn relief it is strongly advised not to use it for prevention as the oil absorbs most uv rays and thus trapping more heat. Just wondering what the results would be if you applied after warming up. Not sure if you have tried that already or not.


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## drew54 (Oct 26, 2018)

drew54 said:


> It is my understanding that because most other oils and coconut oil traps heat. So, if you apply after the tort warms up it should hold and help evenly keep the distributed evenly more so than applying when the tort is cool. Also, it is my understanding that because coconut oil is preferred over aloe for sunburn relief it is strongly advised not to use it for prevention as the oil absorbs most uv rays and thus trapping more heat. Just wondering what the results would be if you applied after warming up. Not sure if you have tried that already or not.



Also, have you tried other heat sources like a tho?


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