# Tortoise Supply.Com



## janiedough (May 25, 2010)

This caught my attention from our own For Sale section.

http://tortoiseforum.org/thread-15249.html


So I went on the website to see what they had/how much it was just out of curiosity. Here is what it says:




> Product Description
> 
> Common Name: Sulcata or "Spur-Thigh" Tortoise
> Scientific Name: Geochelone Sulcata
> ...



SERIOUSLY???

1 - no one should breed these torts as they are freaking huge and people hardly ever know how to take care of them, but tortoise supply seems to do it for loads pf profit...so nice of them.

2 - where is the part on here where it says they can live to be 100???!!! and to weight around 200lbs?!! 

This ad does NOT accurately describe a Sulcata OR the issues that come from it OR proper care instructions.

I think it's terrible.


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## chadk (May 25, 2010)

You are not making a lot of sense. 

1) It has been shown time and time again that it is hard to find sulcatas for those who are looking. In some specific regions it may be easier than others, but many of us have to look hard to find any.

CBB torts help ease the pressure of WC torts. There are other breeders and sellers on our forum as well, so I'm wondering why you would single out Tort Supply?? 

Who are you to say who can or can't breed an animal? Are you going after Golden Retriever breeders? Poodle breeders? Snake breeders?

2) With the internet at the finger tips of most people these days (and ANYONE ordering from their website...), folks have loads and loads of sites to read up on size, weight, age, diet, etc etc. Who knows, they may even stumble upon this great site 

I think your post is terrible.


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## dmmj (May 25, 2010)

I think people should do some research before they buy a tort, just a thought.


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## Yvonne G (May 25, 2010)

Besides what David (dmmj) said, Tortoise Supply.com is one of the good guys! AND, he sponsors the forum and is a member here.


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## Tom (May 25, 2010)

Hi Janie. Have to disagree with you on all counts. It should be noted that I consider the owner of 
http://www.tortoisesupply.com/ a friend, so you may label me biased if you wish.

I think the sulcata description is very well written, honest and accurate.

Sulcatas are certainly not the best pet for everyone, but they are an EXCELLENT pet for some people. They are no harder to take care of than a goat, pig or horse. They certainly don't belong in a tenth floor small apartment, but they are great for anyone who wants to devote a decent size backyard, or more, for them.

The 5 acre plot that I'm on once housed seventy five horses. You don't think I have enough space for a few sulcatas? I live in sunny Southern California. The climate here is fairly similar to what they have in there native area too.

Also, as Chad noted above isn't it better to buy captive bred than deplete them from the wild? There has been no reason to remove any sulcatas from the wild since the early nineties. I think that is admirable.

If you don't think they are suitable pets, then, please, don't buy one or breed them. I see no reason why everyone else can't do some research and make there own decision, as you have. Anyone who owns any animal needs to be responsible and educated about their animals needs. Please don't make the all too common mistake of lumping the few bad folks with the overwhelming majority of good folks.


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## TylerStewart (May 25, 2010)

janiedough said:


> SERIOUSLY???
> 
> 1 - no one should breed these torts as they are freaking huge and people hardly ever know how to take care of them, but tortoise supply seems to do it for loads pf profit...so nice of them.
> 
> ...



Thanks (other) guys for the responses you gave. 

This is an old debate. I think they are wonderful tortoises, and so do 99% of the owners that have sulcatas. If you don't feel people should breed sulcatas, then don't buy a sulcata.

Loads of profit? I'd like to say I'm sorry, first and foremost, for working my butt off on my animals to not sell them at a loss. I enjoy the endless cage cleaning, tortoise wrestling in the dust and mud, and expenses of feeding a large colony. I mean, who needs money? Really? When you're ready, I'll forgive all that expense and send you a free tortoise. I charge the least amount of money I'm willing to part with an animal for. If it's more than you have to spend, don't buy a sulcata. 

I don't say on the website that they can live to be 100 because that's a big "if" (IF they're cared for properly, IF they are in a suitable climate, IF many other things). The average, old, big sulcata tortoise does not live to 100 years old, even if cared for properly. Also, the average big, old sulcata does not get to 200 pounds. It says right on the quote you did that they can reach up to 32".... I don't have any that are 32." Maybe I should change that down to 30" or so, which is what my biggest male is. Remind me why I'm obligated to give the biggest numbers possible? It would probably help me sell them, since lots of people want a *big* tortoise.... Maybe you're on to something. I'll have to think that one through. 

What about what you quoted from my website was inaccurate? What issues "come from it?" Few quotes from my site that you apparently overlooked: _They can be damaging to their environment, digging deep burrows to stay warm or cool if no shelter is provided. They can get impatient in small areas, so this is not a tortoise for the keeper looking for something that doesn't need space._ Remind me why I'm obligated to give (by your definition) "proper care instructions?" I have a page full of tortoise books for sale, if you're interested 

Do yourself a favor.... Don't ever start a business. Life will be hard.


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## janiedough (May 25, 2010)

Look I'm open to the fact I'm wrong. Which is why I put it in the Debatable Topics Area.

If Sulcatas are so hard to find, then why are rescues full of them?

Maybe they're so hard to find because people end up killing them through neglect.

To me, sulcatas are one of those species that should not be promoted as pets. I have one, I love it and take good care of it, but I know of hundreds that were sold in my town and somehow I am the only one here who still owns one...

Mine was given to me by someone who didn't take care of him.


and I live in the south where it's easy to raise these guys! Mine just lives in the backyard and eats what naturally grows here - which happens to be a lot of it's natural diet - and the temps are high, etc.


To me, if you are going to say you're one of the good guys, then you should post links warning these people about sulcata issues. 

Sulcatas are not your average tortoise. They get big and live a very long time. That should be emphasized.

YES, personal responsibility is number one, but we aren't talking about something that will harm the consumer, we are talking about these little guys being bought and sold as a hobby, when they really aren't. I think they are the farthest thing from a hobby that any tort besides the Galapagos can get.

I think that TortoiseSupply should at least put more of a warning or red flag on their website warning consumer to REALLY do their research. Otherwise you ARE one of the bad guys.



And I wouldn't want to own a business that made a profit off of the exploitation of these poor animals


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## TylerStewart (May 25, 2010)

> Look I'm open to the fact I'm wrong.



Are you open to the fact that you're wrong again? 



> If Sulcatas are so hard to find, then why are rescues full of them?



False. They're not, and this has been talked about several times lately, and the overwhelming majority agreed that there are not large numbers in rescues looking for homes. I have repeatedly offered all over the place to take in unwanted, homeless sulcatas, and never have got a single one, including talking to the "rescues" directly. 



> Maybe they're so hard to find because people end up killing them through neglect.



False. If they're so hard to find, how are rescues full of them? 



> I know of hundreds that were sold in my town and somehow I am the only one here who still owns one...



False. Either there weren't hundreds sold in your town, or you're not the only one still with one. Doesn't matter where you are, I guarantee that's wrong. 



> To me, if you are going to say you're one of the good guys, then you should post links warning these people about sulcata issues.



False. I never said I was one of the good guys. Others did. If you don't like me, I think I'm ok with that. There's 3 or 4 others on this forum that don't like me either. 



> I think that TortoiseSupply should at least put more of a warning or red flag on their website warning consumer to REALLY do their research. Otherwise you ARE one of the bad guys.



Why should TortoiseSupply do that, and nobody else should? Am I the first person to sell sulcatas? If you don't think they should be bred (and obviously you don't), simply don't buy from the vendors selling them. Should Home Depot have a big red flag on their space heaters because there's a chance that they will burst uncontrollably into flames? 



> I wouldn't want to own a business that made a profit off of the exploitation of these poor animals



Exploitation because it's a sulcata? Or because I produced a tortoise? Do you think no other species are "exploited" or is it only bad because it's a sulcata? My tortoises live a good life here. I would gladly invite Fish & Wildlife, or animal cruelty officers into my places for an inspection. I think they'd leave impressed, and empty handed


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## N2TORTS (May 25, 2010)

chadk said:


> You are not making a lot of sense.
> 
> 1) It has been shown time and time again that it is hard to find sulcatas for those who are looking. In some specific regions it may be easier than others, but many of us have to look hard to find any.
> 
> ...



Chad I new I liked you ! ..... WELL SAID !... 
took the words right out of my mouth
JD~


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## Tom (May 25, 2010)

Janie, I agree wholeheartedly with Tyler on this issue. Everything he said.

HOWEVER, I don't want you to feel like your are being jumped by a bunch of us and leave the forum. You are not alone in your FEELINGS about this issue. We sulcata folks have heard the sentiment you expressed before and that's why we are all so ready with the "counter-attack". In a perfect world, I would ask you to keep an open mind and consider the other side of this argument. Your initial post feels to me like an attack on my beloved animals (I said beloved animals, not "poor" animals) and an attack on my friends livelihood.

If you feel that selling, well cared for, healthy pet tortoises at a very fair price is "exploitation of poor animals", then there is really no point in further debate. You'll never agree with me and I'll never agree with that.

Are you familiar with the difference between animal welfare and animal rights? I don't mean that to sound snotty. There are a lot of people out in the world with good intentions that just don't understand the differences between, and the implications of, the two very different doctrines. The statement about profiting "off of the exploitation of these poor animals" is a very animal rightest thing to say, but if you keep pet tortoises yourself, that's very much against animal-rightist principals.


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## janiedough (May 25, 2010)

First of all why do these tortoises NEED to be pets? They aren't pets - they are exotic wild animals that outgrow MOST owners if the owners don't kill them first.

I didn't buy mine. I rescued mine from some one who did not take care of it. Mine will live longer than me, and probably outgrow me. I'm freaking out about what to do with mine when it get's bigger and older - and it's only 8!

If you loved your torts, or if you did indeed value these torts, then you wouldn't sell them. Most people are not equipped to handle these tortoises. You are breeding them and making money off of sending them to their death.

Sure, select few people are educated and will take excellent care of these torts, but you don't require screening or anything. Just money.

You say the others don't why should you? Because some one called you "one of the good guys." To me you look the same as every other supplier looking to make a buck off of selling sulcatas. Which is why I used the word exploitation: to make use of meanly or unfairly for one's own advantage. 

Sulcatas should not be pets, and should not be sold as pets. In the very least it should be limited and there should be a selection process like they do in rescues.


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## Neal (May 26, 2010)

I have a few issues with this reply



janiedough said:


> First of all why do these tortoises NEED to be pets? They aren't pets - they are exotic wild animals that outgrow MOST owners if the owners don't kill them first.
> 
> *The tortoises being bred by Tortoise Supply are not "wild" animals, they are bred for the pet industry. Doing this decreases the demand on actual wild tortoises from being taken out of the wild. To say "MOST owners" either kill their tortoises or the tortoises outgrow them is unfounded to say the least. But, if that happens it's the buyers responsibility not the sellers so I think your frustration is misguided. *
> 
> ...



*I completely dissagree with you that sulcatas should not be pets. I have seen many sulcatas and I'm sure any owner here will tell you they are full of as much personality as any cat or dog. They are exotic and interesting and if properly cared for can bring as much joy into someones life as any other type of pet. 

I have been to a rescue here in AZ that has over 200 sulcatas. The rescue itself is breeding them and selling them, as well as selling the adults they get for free for a large profit. Do you see that as a problem? Tyler and others on this forum have offered to take in sulcatas from people who elsewise would give them to one of these rescues. There ARE homes for sulcatas, it seems the problem is that people don't do their homework and instead drop them off at a rescue because they think a rescue is a good place.

I've never met Tyler in person, but have talked with him a few times. From what I can tell he is a good guy, and I can say that based on my experience with him. If you don't think what he is doing is right or he's a "bad guy" than don't buy from him or try to figure out why he does it BEFORE you come on here and tell everyone that what he is doing is terrible. 
*

Sorry for the bolding, I thought my whole response was going to be on the white background, next time I will preview. Also in my first paragraph I don't mean to sound like I'm speaking for Tortoise Supply, my statement I feel was common knowledge. It's past my bed time!


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## BethyB1022 (May 26, 2010)

Personally, I was impressed that tort supply had such a big description on their website. It was much better than the lack of description they usually have at pet stores, or even on some other websites selling torts.

Maybe we should start a new debatable thread on rescues being "full of sulcatas"?


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## Shelly (May 26, 2010)

For every neglected sulcata out there, there are probably 100,000 neglected dogs and cats.


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## Tom (May 26, 2010)

Good morning Janie. I was going to relate the story of the rescue in Pheonix that was over run with hundreds of poor, unwanted, homeless sulcatas. ihaveaquestion3, the original poster of that thread, already pointed out the this "rescue" was actually a collector, breeder and seller. This story has been repeated all over the country. The stories you've heard of all those thousands of unwanted, homeless sulcatas are false. Myth. Bogus. Yes there are unwanted sulcatas from time to time, but there are far more Russians, Box Turtles and Red Eared Sliders. Not to mention the unwanted mammals out there. (Good point, Shelly) The sulcata "problem" pales in comparison. Do the tortoise rescues see some sulcatas every year? Sure, but the numbers are relatively small and they get placed pretty quickly, according to the rescuers.

What I don't understand is why you are so opposed to SULCATAS as pets. There are lots of other large outdoor pets out there. There are lots of other large tortoise species out there. We just recently had a thread discussing which species grow the largest and there have been Leopards and Yellowfoot tortoises over a hundred pound too. Several other species get over 50 pounds. Is it the size? Are you opposed to goats as pets? They come from Africa too and are all now captive bred and can get over a hundred pounds. I can tell you from experience , its much easier to handle a 100 lb, tort than a 100 lb. goat. What about Vietnamese Pot Bellied Pigs? Sheep?

My wife was a vet tech for 13 years. She and I just had a conversation about this. She was relating that most of the people that came into the vet hospital with tortoises (any species) didn't know how to take care of then properly and she was starting to go down the same path as you. I asked her if it was any different for parrots, cats, fish, dogs, etc... She thought about it for a minute and said no. She admitted that animal ignorance is pretty universal. Then I asked her how many times I had been to the vet with any of my chelonians. ZERO. Her brother? My tortoise owning friend? Zero and Zero. Our other tortoise owning friends? Zero. My point was; most tortoise owners know how to take care of them properly and don't need a vet very often. Sure they can have health problems,even if you do everything right, but most of them are pretty hardy and healthy. Most of the people that end up at the vet are either ignorant and did something wrong (like me in 1979 with my box turtle) or trying to rehab one from someone else that was ignorant. (I said most, not all. So those of you that have been keeping lots of torts for many years and have been to the vet occasionally, don't get all upset. I'm just relating what my wife observed.)

So what is your reason for recommending so strongly against sulcatas as pets and railing so strongly against breeding them? Is it because they are exotic? Their size? Your perception that the tortoise keeping public is largely ignorant? Your perception that there is a huge problem with sulcata overpopulation and the rescues are overflowing with them? I'd like to understand where you are coming from and right now, I don't. I know lots of big sulcata owners and their torts are all well cared for, healthy and loved. AND not a one of them is a wild caught animal snatched from the wild in Africa.

You mentioned exploitation. Are you a strict vegan? Animal rightist? If so, then I totally understand your point of view. I don't agree with, at all, but I could understand it. For anyone who is not a strict vegan, aren't we all exploiting animals for personal gain? I certainly am.


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## chadk (May 26, 2010)

The 'exploiting' for most of us is 'win win'. We get a great pet and the tort get's a great home. Fresh food everyday. Fresh water daily. Protection from extreme weather. Protection from predators.

In the wild, how many hatclings survive the first year? 
Do you think they enjoy droughts? Floods?  No food or water for long periods of time? Extreme weather extremes? Constantly trying to survive and avoid predators.

Now and then a tort will end up in the wrong hands and get stuck in 'tort hell'. A tiny glass tank with hot dogs and iceburg lettuce for water. No heat or too much heat. And eventually they get sick and die. That sucks. But now we have the internet and more and more tort owners have help right at their fingertips.


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## DeanS (May 26, 2010)

I don't really care who breeds (and sells) as long as the individual acquiring will be responsible. That's really it in a nutshell. To me, there just can't be enough sulcatas. I'm hooked and ALWAYS will be.


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## dmmj (May 26, 2010)

hey I like hot dogs.


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## franeich (May 26, 2010)

If no one bred them then people would take then out if the wild and keep them as pets. I would rather see them bred and made into dog food then have them all stolen out of the wild.


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## RichardS (May 26, 2010)

My suggestion is that the mods delete this thread. Online defamation is a grey area of the law. I wouldn't want to jeopardize tortoiseforum.org and make its owner personally liable with this type of discussion when its linked to a specific individual and their business. Just a thought.


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## moswen (May 26, 2010)

I personally haven't found a single tortoise rescue online that is "overloaded" with sullys, and I've googled "sulcata tortoise rescue" several times. The most I've found is two sullies in a colorado rescue, and they only had 2 and several RES. And I've said all that before. I also don't think there was a whole lot wrong with the ad, they could have said "can live to be 100 if kept in proper conditions," but at least they did tell how large they get and leave you with the last line stating "large space needed" or whatever. They also didn't claim "easy to care for, quiet, a great pet for your children," which I've seen before. I personally am fine with the ad, and sulcata breeding, but that's just my opinion!


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## Josh (May 26, 2010)

RichardS said:


> My suggestion is that the mods delete this thread. Online defamation is a grey area of the law. I wouldn't want to jeopardize tortoiseforum.org and make its owner personally liable with this type of discussion when its linked to a specific individual and their business. Just a thought.



Still waiting for my first C&D letter


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## TylerStewart (May 26, 2010)

RichardS said:


> My suggestion is that the mods delete this thread. Online defamation is a grey area of the law. I wouldn't want to jeopardize tortoiseforum.org and make its owner personally liable with this type of discussion when its linked to a specific individual and their business. Just a thought.



Thanks for the support (and common sense) to almost everyone involved in this thread. While I appreciate the concerns some people have about defamation (had a few e-mails also), I realize that there's always going to be idiots out there on the internet, and eventually, some of them are going to find me. I'm confident that 95% of the people that read this have common sense, and if so, this thread won't be damaging to me in any way.


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## Terry Allan Hall (May 26, 2010)

dmmj said:


> I think people should do some research before they buy a tort, just a thought.



I think people should do some research before they buy any sort of pet.


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## gummybearpoop (May 26, 2010)

The problem is irresponsible people. Sulcatas or sulcata breeders are not the problem. Sure breeders can screen people as much as they can.

Look at all the dogs and cats running the streets. People buy dogs and cats....not all end up on the street....but a lot of them do! I have never seen a sulcata running the street loose and I live in AZ where thousands are produced yearly. Everyday I see loose cats and dogs, and cats and dogs that have been hit by cars. Also, lots of children are neglected because of irresponsible parents.

I rarely see classifieds where people are giving away sulcatas because they don't want them. Don't believe the hype. Maybe one day it will happen.

Do not blame Tyler/tortoisesupply for selling sulcatas like they are villains.

There will always be irresponsible people and responsible people who try to pick up the slack.

There are already at least a few threads of people bashing sulcata breeders. These kind of threads is what keeps me away from tortoiseforum. Perhaps, people would get more done about issues they care about if they used their time to educate the public rather than online-bashing someone they don't know.


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## janiedough (May 26, 2010)

ihaveaquestion3 said:


> I have a few issues with this reply
> 
> The tortoises being bred by Tortoise Supply are not "wild" animals, they are bred for the pet industry. Doing this decreases the demand on actual wild tortoises from being taken out of the wild. To say "MOST owners" either kill their tortoises or the tortoises outgrow them is unfounded to say the least. But, if that happens it's the buyers responsibility not the sellers so I think your frustration is misguided.
> 
> ...






Tom said:


> What I don't understand is why you are so opposed to SULCATAS as pets. There are lots of other large outdoor pets out there. There are lots of other large tortoise species out there. We just recently had a thread discussing which species grow the largest and there have been Leopards and Yellowfoot tortoises over a hundred pound too. Several other species get over 50 pounds. Is it the size? Are you opposed to goats as pets? They come from Africa too and are all now captive bred and can get over a hundred pounds. I can tell you from experience , its much easier to handle a 100 lb, tort than a 100 lb. goat. What about Vietnamese Pot Bellied Pigs? Sheep?
> 
> Sulcatas get to be 200+lbs and live to be 100 years old. Most people just are not equipped to raise them. In most areas you can't own farm animals within city limits - there should be similar limitations on sulcatas. Also - goats are eaten and used for their milk - it's not a pet - not for long. Sulcatas are the second largest. Right under Galapagos.
> 
> ...





chadk said:


> The 'exploiting' for most of us is 'win win'. We get a great pet and the tort get's a great home. Fresh food everyday. Fresh water daily. Protection from extreme weather. Protection from predators.
> 
> In the wild, how many hatclings survive the first year?
> Do you think they enjoy droughts? Floods? No food or water for long periods of time? Extreme weather extremes? Constantly trying to survive and avoid predators.
> ...





franeich said:


> If no one bred them then people would take then out if the wild and keep them as pets. I would rather see them bred and made into dog food then have them all stolen out of the wild.
> 
> 
> yeah if no one bred these torts, I'm sure people would be paddling over the Africa to get them...





RichardS said:


> My suggestion is that the mods delete this thread. Online defamation is a grey area of the law. I wouldn't want to jeopardize tortoiseforum.org and make its owner personally liable with this type of discussion when its linked to a specific individual and their business. Just a thought.
> 
> You really need to look into the definition and application of defamation.





moswen said:


> I personally haven't found a single tortoise rescue online that is "overloaded" with sullys, and I've googled "sulcata tortoise rescue" several times. The most I've found is two sullies in a colorado rescue, and they only had 2 and several RES. And I've said all that before. I also don't think there was a whole lot wrong with the ad, they could have said "can live to be 100 if kept in proper conditions," but at least they did tell how large they get and leave you with the last line stating "large space needed" or whatever. They also didn't claim "easy to care for, quiet, a great pet for your children," which I've seen before. I personally am fine with the ad, and sulcata breeding, but that's just my opinion!
> 
> They definitely need to clearly state - in big bold letters that these torts get up to 200lbs and can live 100 years. They also need to specify how large of an area they are talking about. Sulcatas can't live in terrariums.





TylerStewart said:


> Thanks for the support (and common sense) to almost everyone involved in this thread. While I appreciate the concerns some people have about defamation (had a few e-mails also), I realize that there's always going to be idiots out there on the internet, and eventually, some of them are going to find me. I'm confident that 95% of the people that read this have common sense, and if so, this thread won't be damaging to me in any way.
> 
> If you want to call me an idiot, don't do it in a back handed way. You have in no way stated or shown that you cared for the life of the torts that are sold. if you did you would put more information. What harm could it do except to put a dent in profits? So where's the problem with simply giving more information on the website?





gummybearpoop said:


> The problem is irresponsible people. Sulcatas or sulcata breeders are not the problem. Sure breeders can screen people as much as they can.
> 
> I rarely see classifieds where people are giving away sulcatas because they don't want them. Don't believe the hype. Maybe one day it will happen.
> 
> ...



ALSO I am not the only one who has an issue with Sulcata breeding: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-3231.html


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## DonaTello's-Mom (May 26, 2010)

janiedough said:


> ihaveaquestion3 said:
> 
> 
> > I have a few issues with this reply
> ...




Oh please! Can't someone just close this thread?........sorry Jane-whatever, your giving me a headache! Ooops, did I say that?


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## janiedough (May 26, 2010)

DonaTello said:


> Oh please! Can't someone just close this thread?........sorry Jane-whatever, your giving me a headache! Ooops, did I say that?


why do all of you want this thread closed?

because you don't agree? 


because you don't have an argument as to why these people can't put more information or more of a warning on their website?

yeah...that's what I thought.

Come on people - really - I dare you to give me a good reason as to why they shouldn't put these warnings on their website.

"Because others don't" 
"Because they don't have to"
Lame.

and I just want to say if the thread is closed - that's bull corn because I have not personally attacked anyone. If anything - all of you are giving me a headache saying the same thing and not giving good reasons or arguments - especially from most of you who don't own or know about sulcatas.


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## DonaTello's-Mom (May 26, 2010)

Because your barking up the wrong tree, and I'm sorry, it's quite annoying. I think the 'care sheet' was good 'as is'. If you feel this strongly I suggest YOU put a (what YOU feel is 'the best') caresheet on the world wide internet for all too view. Maybe this will help ease your mind knowing you've done what YOU think is best for sulcata's.......just my opinion, take it or leave.


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## janiedough (May 26, 2010)

DonaTello said:


> Because your barking up the wrong tree, and I'm sorry, it's quite annoying. I think the 'care sheet' was good 'as is'. If you feel this strongly I suggest YOU put a (what YOU feel is 'the best') caresheet on the world wide internet for all too view. Maybe this will help ease your mind knowing you've done what YOU think is best for sulcata's.......just my opinion, take it or leave.




why am I barking up the wrong tree?
This site is supposed to HELP tortoises. That's what I am trying to do.

Me putting up a caresheet is not going to keep people from know what they are buying on this website.

Again - any reason as to why they cannot put more information/warning about sulcatas?


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## RichardS (May 26, 2010)

XXXX


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## Maggie Cummings (May 26, 2010)

I will close this thread if you don't watch your language and have respect for those around you...debatable does not mean that you can use gutter language or speak disrespectfully to those you disagree with. Remember this is a family forum and we are mostly friends here...


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## DonaTello's-Mom (May 26, 2010)

I'm sorry to say, you are in the minority on this topic. I give you credit for all your 'passion' on this subject but really, there's so many other animals in this world that need help and sulcata's are not one of them.


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## Rhyno47 (May 26, 2010)

As far as reptiles go I would give it a 6 on the dangerous/difficulty scale. There is a huge demand for poisonous snakes and giant constrictors. Crocodillians and large monitor lizards are on the rise as well. So as far as dangerous animals go Sulcatas are on the bottom of my watch list. Granted they can be tricky. When they are young their is the whole humidity/pyramiding scare, but as they age that goes away and you have to deal with space and food. On every web page I've seen they clearly state that they get big and love to wreck up landscaping. I hardy doubt that its the web-based breeders. On the other hand I have been in pet stores that sell sulcatas and call them African Desert Tortoises or just African Tortoises. Also at many pet stores they sell "tortoise kits" many of which use a sulcata as the tortoise on the cover. These kits are aquariums with alfalfa pellets as substrate. So dont blame breeders blame pet stores.


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## janiedough (May 26, 2010)

DonaTello said:


> I'm sorry to say, you are in the minority on this topic. I give you credit for all your 'passion' on this subject but really, there's so many other animals in this world that need help and sulcata's are not one of them.



I am the minority in this one thread. Most people who are good and true to what is right ARE in the minority. It doesn't bother me.

What does bother me is that this supplier sponsors this forum (so he seems to care and be educated) and yet does not put forth a smaller bit of effort to put the proper warnings.



Rhyno47 said:
 

> As far as reptiles go I would give it a 6 on the dangerous/difficulty scale. There is a huge demand for poisonous snakes and giant constrictors. Crocodillians and large monitor lizards are on the rise as well. So as far as dangerous animals go Sulcatas are on the bottom of my watch list. Granted they can be tricky. When they are young their is the whole humidity/pyramiding scare, but as they age that goes away and you have to deal with space and food. On every web page I've seen they clearly state that they get big and love to wreck up landscaping. I hardy doubt that its the web-based breeders. On the other hand I have been in pet stores that sell sulcatas and call them African Desert Tortoises or just African Tortoises. Also at many pet stores they sell "tortoise kits" many of which use a sulcata as the tortoise on the cover. These kits are aquariums with alfalfa pellets as substrate. So dont blame breeders blame pet stores.



We are talking about this supplier. did you go to their website? do you feel they have a substantial warning/information about the needs of the sulcatas?

Sulcatas are not dangerous or OVERLY difficult until they get older. The difficult part is when they get too big to put in aquariums or indoors.

Then people don't know what to do with them.


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## Rhyno47 (May 26, 2010)

Actually the website is one of my bookmarks. I regret not getting my sulcata from TortoiseSupply.com


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## DonaTello's-Mom (May 26, 2010)

janiedough said:
"What does bother me is that this supplier sponsors this forum (so he seems to care and be educated) and yet does not put forth a smaller bit of effort to put the proper warnings."

If you felt it was a 'smaller bit of effort' then why couldn't YOU put forth that 'small bit of effort' to contact him with your concerns?? Rather than insulting him on a 'public' forum janiedough? Ever heard the saying 'you'll get more with honey than vinegar'.....try it sometime.


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## Maggie Cummings (May 26, 2010)

My sister has been involved in turtle and tortoise rescue for over 30 years and when I injured myself in 2003 and started volunteering at her rescue there were many homeless Sulcata. I am also friends with a woman who runs a rescue in New York state and there as with Yvonne's were many homeless Sulcata. Zoo's wouldn't take them anymore neither would any other animal exhibit like a zoo. That is not the case anymore. With my traveling coast to coast I had the opportunity to see many of these places and then they were overrun with Sulcata, that is not the case anymore. Many tortoise people got together and did something about the over population of Sulcata. I know first hand that rescues are NOT overrun with Sulcata anymore. The ability to place them in homes opened up thanks to the work of many tortoise people coast to coast. I challenge anyone to find a rescue that can't find homes for Sulcata.
I am the keeper of an 80 pound Sulcata. He is only 11 years old. I cannot say that he hasn't caused some trouble for me, but with the help of some friends my yard was changed around and he is now set up in a situation that is safer for him and nicer for me. Bob is a being that is so full of personality he makes me laugh out loud. He follows me around as I go about my chores ever looking for that strawberry he knows I have. When I get down to pull weeds he climbs up in my lap and sniffs my face all over, then finds that pocket with the ever elusive strawberry. I push him off of me and run across the grass with him chasing me right at my heels. I would hate the thought of never having the chance to keep this wonderful animal. You should see the crowds he draws when I take him to sit on Santa's lap. Yes, I do that. And I use that time to talk to the people about Sulcata and how to keep them and just how there used to be so many homeless. I took him to get microchipped and met DoctorCousmought there. I used that crowd as another opportunity to educate the people about Sulcata. I use every chance I get to take Bob out in the public and talk to the crowds he draws about keeping Sulcata. There are many keepers like me doing what I do and that is one reason or hundreds why there aren't so many homeless Sulcata anymore. Because a lot of people just like me educated a group of people about Sulcata.
I would hate the thought that I wouldn't have been able to keep Bob because some law or some person didn't understand and robbed me of the enjoyment that is King Robert III


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## janiedough (May 26, 2010)

DonaTello said:


> "What does bother me is that this supplier sponsors this forum (so he seems to care and be educated) and yet does not put forth a smaller bit of effort to put the proper warnings."
> 
> If you felt it was a 'smaller bit of effort' then why couldn't YOU put forth that 'small bit of effort' to contact him with your concerns?? Rather than insulting him on a 'public' forum janiedough? Ever heard the saying 'you'll get more with honey than vinegar'.....try it sometime.



I put this here to be debated - to be discussed. To ask why were they allowed to advertise on the board when they were like this.

Then they came on and said he was a sponsor and wasn't one of the bad guys, etc.

If he's not - then he can put more info.



maggie3fan said:


> My sister has been involved in turtle and tortoise rescue for over 30 years and when I injured myself in 2003 and started volunteering at her rescue there were many homeless Sulcata. I am also friends with a woman who runs a rescue in New York state and there as with Yvonne's were many homeless Sulcata. Zoo's wouldn't take them anymore neither would any other animal exhibit like a zoo. That is not the case anymore. With my traveling coast to coast I had the opportunity to see many of these places and then they were overrun with Sulcata, that is not the case anymore. Many tortoise people got together and did something about the over population of Sulcata. I know first hand that rescues are NOT overrun with Sulcata anymore. The ability to place them in homes opened up thanks to the work of many tortoise people coast to coast. I challenge anyone to find a rescue that can't find homes for Sulcata.
> I am the keeper of an 80 pound Sulcata. He is only 11 years old. I cannot say that he hasn't caused some trouble for me, but with the help of some friends my yard was changed around and he is now set up in a situation that is safer for him and nicer for me. Bob is a being that is so full of personality he makes me laugh out loud. He follows me around as I go about my chores ever looking for that strawberry he knows I have. When I get down to pull weeds he climbs up in my lap and sniffs my face all over, then finds that pocket with the ever elusive strawberry. I push him off of me and run across the grass with him chasing me right at my heels. I would hate the thought of never having the chance to keep this wonderful animal. You should see the crowds he draws when I take him to sit on Santa's lap. Yes, I do that. And I use that time to talk to the people about Sulcata and how to keep them and just how there used to be so many homeless. I took him to get microchipped and met DoctorCousmought there. I used that crowd as another opportunity to educate the people about Sulcata. I use every chance I get to take Bob out in the public and talk to the crowds he draws about keeping Sulcata. There are many keepers like me doing what I do and that is one reason or hundreds why there aren't so many homeless Sulcata anymore. Because a lot of people just like me educated a group of people about Sulcata.
> I would hate the thought that I wouldn't have been able to keep Bob because some law or some person didn't understand and robbed me of the enjoyment that is King Robert III



Thank you Maggie.

But do you not agree that suppliers/breeders need to be more specific and warn people more when they are selling sulcatas?


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## kimber_lee_314 (May 26, 2010)

Janie - I do agree with you. I don't think sulcatas or RES should be deliberately bred. I also don't think people should be breeding dogs and cats when there are SO many dying everyday. I don't think people should be having children when they don't have the proper knowledge or resources to raise them. I think the care sheet mentioned is one of the better ones I've seen though so I applaud Tyler for it. The bottom line is you can only state your opinion and try to help educate as many people as possible about their care. It's only through education that we can really make changes.


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## janiedough (May 26, 2010)

thank you kimber lee for your thoughtful response.

I also want to apologize for cursing. It wasn't aimed at anyone. I curse like a sailor in real life and it's hard for me to not type it when I am not only passionate but typing fast.


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## dreadyA (May 26, 2010)

Hey, i'm too $^@%@!# to even follow along with this thread. 


Hey, i think tortoise supply had a great deal during mothers day


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## PeanutbuttER (May 26, 2010)

janiedough said:


> Come on people - really - I dare you to give me a good reason as to why they shouldn't put these warnings on their website.
> 
> "Because others don't"
> "Because they don't have to"
> ...





Doesn't your argument also degenerate to "Because they should"? The point is moot. There are many answers and many valid reasons available to you here and elsewhere on the internet. 

I don't breed sulcatas, I don't own sulcatas, but I have owned and cared for protected animals in the past. In my opinion, the sulcata problem is only really big to tortoise keepers. Before I got tortoises I had no idea sulcatas existed let alone there was any "problem" of overbreeding with any of them. I was however aware of RES being overproduced. Aren't RES in a worse situation than sulcatas?

If you were a falconer for instance you would likely be concerned with irresponsible breeding of peregrine and gyrfalcons. But when you take a step back and look at this globally, the "problem" is not nearly as big as it seems. As tortoise keepers I'd even say we're all in the minority as far as pet owners go which is proof enough to me that this is likely a smaller problem than it may appear.

*side note, I'll bet tortoise supply is getting a boost on the number of people hitting up the site and the majority are pleased with what they see. Tyler- at some point I'd like to get some cypress from you.

Free publicity - woot!


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## Jacqui (May 26, 2010)

janiedough said:


> I also want to apologize for cursing. It wasn't aimed at anyone. I curse like a sailor in real life and it's hard for me to not type it when I am not only passionate but typing fast.



I rarely swear in real life, but I do have a word or two that are used by me. Even I have to work hard at times to keep things worded in PG ways, so I understand. 

I may not agree with you on many of the things you have said, but I do think there is no reason to close this thread. I think it's interesting hearing all the comments from folks.


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## Maggie Cummings (May 26, 2010)

janiedough said:


> DonaTello said:
> 
> 
> > "What does bother me is that this supplier sponsors this forum (so he seems to care and be educated) and yet does not put forth a smaller bit of effort to put the proper warnings."
> ...






In a perfect world maybe. But this is not a perfect world and Tyler is a businessman, so it doesn't make sense, even to me, that when a couple is standing there holding that cute little hatchling for Tyler to say..."and in a few years he will be knocking holes in your sheetrock". He wants to sell the animal. I would hope that he gives a care sheet made specifically for Sulcata and I hope he tells the people to do their research. My specific desire would be that he makes damn sure that they know how to care for the hatchling. I would really like to see less hatchlings dying, and a care sheet for Sulcata hatchlings would really do it for me...


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## chadk (May 26, 2010)

Here in western WA there is not a sulcata crisis. I am involved with a well known rescue and have seen only a few come through in the last year. If an adult female came through, I might take it in, but have not found one yet. I also check CL weekly and see continuous "wanted" ads for sulcatas, but rarely any sulcatas available. Those that are available have pretty high costs associated with them. 

The first one I got for free but I had to pay for the tank and supplies. Poor thing was neglected, but doing great now. The other 2 were totally free and I had to jump fast to get them. I also had to do a good job of convincing them I'd be able to provide a good home. Both (seperate instances) were well taken care of and well loved, but the owners were moving out of state to apartments. So in this area, I've been looking hard for over a year, and have seen maybe 6 to 8 available between CL and the rescue. There are a few in the local petstores now and then as well. Usually priced very high. But what is clear to me is that in this area at least, there is clearly no sulcata crisis.


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## reptylefreek (May 27, 2010)

SULCATAS ARE NOT THE SECOND LARGEST UNDER GALOPS! people say this to me all the time "sulcatas are like the largest tortoise in the world and they get like really really big, like 200lbs". please look at the other posts that have been posted on this subject. it seems to me like you dont encounter smart people on a day to day basis. This forum is packed full of people who are smart enough to care for sulcatas and give them a great life. i understand you rescued a sulcata and you feel like you did the right thing, but if you dont think they should be kept as pets then you should part with him now before you realize he is the best "pet" you'll ever have. I too look on CL all the time to look for these "unwanted" sulcatas, not one to be found. On top of everything you have said, you have to realize you are telling a third of this forum that they are wrong in owning what they do. Whether you believe it or not, people have owned pets since the begining of time... and its probably in the last couple hundred years that people have actually been improving animals quality of life. And lastly I will agree that is the BEST caresheet I have seen on a sulcata from someone who is selling.


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## fifthdawn (May 27, 2010)

Although I disagree with a lot of the way you've defended your arguments Janie, I have agree on the point that there should be warnings on the potential size and care sulcata's need. Although there are no legal obligations (I could be wrong, not a law major), I feel there should be a moral ogligation to post this information. From what I've seen, big reptiles such as sulcatas, iguanas, etc, are generally the cheapest on the market because of their potential size and that price attracts new reptile hobbyist. This increases the risk of neglect as they get bigger and I feel that we shouldn't just focus on short term harm (when sulcatas are still small) but the long term potential harm for the animal's well being.

Of all your arguments, the one that stood out the most to me is you saying goats or cows are meant to be eatten. This is very subjective. All animals should be treated as ends in themselves, as individual agents. In some countries, cows are holy animals, and in other countries, tortoises are raised and farmed as food. I don't think sulcatas should get any special treatment. As people have mentioned before, other animals such as dogs, cats, RES, etc, are much more in need of help and awareness.


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## TylerStewart (May 27, 2010)

janiedough said:


> We are talking about this supplier. did you go to their website? do you feel they have a substantial warning/information about the needs of the sulcatas?
> 
> Sulcatas are not dangerous or OVERLY difficult until they get older. The difficult part is when they get too big to put in aquariums or indoors.
> 
> Then people don't know what to do with them.



So a redfoot can be in an aquarium its whole life? How about a leopard? The eventual needs of a sulcata are not much different than any other tortoise, really. What do large sulcatas need that is much more difficult than what a large leopard needs? Large redfoot? I would think a large redfoot's needs would be greater than a large sulcatas needs in every category besides maybe space. The diet and water requirements make them (in my opinion) more difficult for people to meet the needs than a sulcata that is happy grazing on grass its whole life. 

Like reptylefreek said (and many others already know), sulcatas are not the second largest, and there are occasional giants in all species, just like a 200 pound sulcata would be an occasional giant (not the norm). There are massive yellowfoots out there... Massive leopards. So should anyone seling a yellowfoot have a big red flag saying that they will get to be 150 pounds, since sometime in the past, maybe one has? You never answered my question about the Home Depot space heater bursting into flames, either. Should they have a big red flag on them telling you not to buy it because one of them in the past has caused a fire (which is much more serious than a big tortoise). 

If any of you has ever called us and asked about a sulcata, you would have gotten the verbal warning that "you need to know what you're getting yourself into." I challenge anyone to call us and act interested in a sulcata, and see what you are told. We tell that to people on a daily basis. Also, on the majority of the web pages for our baby tortoises (not on the one that was originally linked to, but it is on the baby sulcata one), there is a section of "our current care," telling exactly how we are keeping that tortoise at this time. I also did an extensive sulcata tortoise caresheet for ReptileChannel.com that I gave them about a month ago (not yet on their site) that addresses many of the complications that come with owning a large tortoise.


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## gummybearpoop (May 27, 2010)

People will continue to breed sulcatas as long as there is a demand. The drawback is that tortoises live so long and by the time that the demand has receded.....there MAY be a lot of unwanted large tortoises.

The breeders I know will gladly take back unwanted animals. Many times I have offered to take unwanted animals and I will find them new homes. Snakes are given to me a lot more frequently than tortoises.

All the sulcata keepers I know.....love their sulcatas. If I had more property, I would keep 5 of them for myself. haha.

Either way Janie.... I would love to see your face when you see 60 adults. Not including the next generation breeders and 1200-2000 babies produced EACH year.


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## Red (May 27, 2010)

I am the second half of TortoiseSupply, my hubby Tyler being the business half and I the primary care giver to our tortoises. I would love to state that I LOVE all of my tortoises. From our huge sullys to every little baby we produce. I care for all of them along with my 2 kids, 2 huge dogs, cat, iguanas, and all while being pregnant. 

I stay at home taking care of our 1 yr old and answering phones for TortoiseSupply. I have many times spent over 30 mins talking to people with a problem they are having with their tortoise. Sullys or Redfoots, whatever. They often didnÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t buy from us and yet there I am spending my time helping them with what they need. I happily do so because of our love for our hobby. For someone to say that we are Ã¢â‚¬Å“extorting these animalsÃ¢â‚¬Â is very upsetting to me due to the time I take to help people when there is no Ã¢â‚¬Å“big moneyÃ¢â‚¬Â as you say for me in the end. 

I always alarm people about the pros and cons of every type of tort we sell along with any info they need. I would love to see any other company out there take the time and effort we do to ensure the proper care of these animals. 

There is no way we can assure that people will listen, but to have our name bashed due to someone not taking the time to research or simply call with a question is absurd and out of our control. We are the good guys, we make many people happy with their new family additions and help others when they need. 

If this was such a huge Ã¢â‚¬Å“money makerÃ¢â‚¬Â then I would be buying maternity clothes at Pea in the Pod instead of on sale at Old Navy. We do this for our enjoyment and others.


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## Yvonne G (May 27, 2010)

Hi Red:

Welcome to the forum! Its nice to hear from Tyler's other half.


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## chadk (May 27, 2010)

Hey, what's wrong with Old Navy???


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## Kristina (May 27, 2010)

I am seriously frustrated.

I was majorly on the bandwagon with a signpost reading, "STOP BREEDING SULCATA!!!!" 

But everything Tyler said about Leopards, Redfoots, and Yellowfoots, makes complete sense. My one female Redfoot is the size that my largest Sulcata was. What is the difference? 

By the way, my goats were pets. That makes no sense. Anything can be a pet that you want to be a pet. 

And as for "paddling to Africa," How the heck do you think the first Sulcata GOT to the US? I suppose they flew or something. Oh, wait.... They were yanked from the wild, that's right, I remember.

Being passionate about your stance is one thing. Downright bashing someone is another. Your language and broken record of "information" that mostly isn't even correct is not going to endear anyone to your cause. 

Saying that "no one" is capable of caring for a Sulcata is plain ignorant. Yvonne, Maggie, Tom, JD, Tyler, Dean, Laura, and a BUNCH of other people on this site have large, very well cared for Sulcatas.

Get off your high horse. Just because you "rescued" a Sulcata does not make you an authority, or give you the right to dictate to others what they should and should not do. There are people on this forum with 30+ years of experience with these animals, and saying that his forum is not fulfilling it's duty of helping others because one of the sponsors and members DARES to breed Sulcata, is, well... I hate to say it, but plain DUMB.

I don't think that Sulcata should be kept in certain states. But I certainly don't want a law made against it. I don't want some fool bureaucrat that doesn't know the difference between an invasive species and a harmless exotic telling me what I can and cannot do, which is why I lobbied my butt off against HR669. I won't have YOU or anyone else for that matter telling me what I can and cannot do. I am an American and my family, friends and forefathers fought for the right for me to be free. If you want to educate the public, have at it. But doing it at the expense of someone else is just plain wrong, and low, and because of that I have absolutely no respect for what you are trying to achieve. A POLITE personal email to Tyler probably would have gotten you way farther than trying to create a public stir. You might have achieved something. Now you have just managed to anger everyone.


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## Tom (May 31, 2010)

Old Navy? That's fancy. I go to Wal-Mart or Good-Will. You can get almost new pants for six bucks.





chadk said:


> Hey, what's wrong with Old Navy???


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## ehopkins12 (Jun 5, 2010)

If anyone plays World of Warcraft...we have a term for the person that started this thread...a troll. Just trolling for attention. The best way to remedy the situation is simple...ignore the troll.


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## Jacqui (Jun 6, 2010)

ehopkins12 said:


> If anyone plays World of Warcraft...we have a term for the person that started this thread...a troll. Just trolling for attention. The best way to remedy the situation is simple...ignore the troll.



Please watch with the name calling. I debated if this term (troll) should be deleted and at this point am letting it go. However, please refrain from such tactics. (Mod Jacqui)


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## reptylefreek (Jun 6, 2010)

I think you misunderstood the term. Not like the ugly troll that lives under a bridge...lol. It just describes someone who is seeking attention or just says untrue and useless things. JACQUI, look it up in the urban dictionary . I dont think this WAS a case of trolling until the person started making untrue statements just to defend themself instead of just admitting that tortsupply is doing nothing wrong.


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## janiedough (Jun 15, 2010)

I was going to leave this since no one has anything else to add. It is what it is.

But I am not a troll. This was my first and only thread in the debatable section. It was not done for attention. I still feel very strongly and passionately about it.

None of you have changed my mind or made the situation right in my eyes. And I don't believe calling me a troll would be effective either.

But thanks for attacking me personally since you have nothing else to add to the argument.


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