# tortoise rammed...Size does matter ***Graphic Images***



## exoticsdr

Looked at the schedule this afternoon and saw a turtle on the books and thought that I had something to look forward to.....boy, was I right. (I was given permission, by the owner, to post pics and tell his story so the members of TFO could learn from his mistake....thanks to him).

Turned out to be a 10# Sulcatta with a shell injury caused by being rammed by an 80+ pounder. Now before everyone starts condemning the owner, the larger tort was being kept on display at a public attraction and was just moved home by the owner because another large Sulcatta had just been stolen from the site. Out of neccessity, the owner placed it into his only enclosure until he could set up a new enclosure. During the initial exam I could see a full thickness section of shell approximately 6-8" long and 2" wide completely missing and the defect was filled with dirt, feces and debris. The first three pics are of the tort pre-treatment.















After alot of flushing, scrubbing with a soft brush and digging, this what we end up with. Lots of shell damage and still a significant amount of debris present at this time. You can clearly see the intact pleura which was actively moving in and out with respiration. The tort reacted very little when I was cleaning the wound but was trying to move about just like any normal Sulcatta that was being restrained when they didn't want to be. Because of the contamination, we are going to have to move slowly to allow any tissue that is devitalized or going to become devitalized time to make itself known and be taken care of, while at the same time trying to prevent the pleura from drying and becoming necrotic. We packed the wound with chlorhex soaked gauze and wrapped with Saran Wrap (of all things) with 4 times daily hydrotherapy and repacking until we can determine what our next steps are. Initially placed on Enrofloxacin orally because of it's wide spectrum and will adjust this also (if needed) over the next weeks....hope to add Silvadene Creme along the shell edges as soon as I we get a nice healthy bed of granulation tissue covering the pleura. 






As you can see, this is an extremely serious wound and hpefully all will work out well...the overwhelming contamination is going to be our biggest obstacle. Wish us luck. Doc


----------



## Jacob

Very Nice Post, This shows what can and will happen if you keep sulcatas's together.


----------



## dmarcus

Poor guy, hope he makes a full recovery.


----------



## N2TORTS

DOC ..... Amazing and thank you for sharing! ... Wishing the best for a speedy recovery and wonderful job done! 

JD~


----------



## Turtulas-Len

Thanks for another educational post,Hope everything goes as planned.


----------



## wellington

WOW That is terrible. Hope all goes really well. Just that quick, things can go wrong and one is damaged or killed, WOW. Thanks for the post, reminder and hopefully answering all those questions of why can't I ...
Good luck, keep us posted on his recovery, fingers crossed.


----------



## NudistApple

Jeez...that poor little guy. I hope he recovers. Do you feel confident?


----------



## Jacqui

First thank you for taking the time to show us this. Plus please thank the owners for us and let them know we are all cheering for this fellow. I don't think I was fully prepared for the vast amount of damage done to this tortoise. Simply amazing and very sad. Hopefully others will now take this message to heart.


----------



## dmmj

Wow graphic for sure, maybe we should sticky this so new owners can see what could happen. Either way thanks to you for posting and the owner for allowing it.


----------



## Baoh

Thanks for sharing this. I avoid keeping multiple males of the same species for this sort of reason. The females can sometimes be aggressive, too, but male tend to be more ramming oriented. I hope the tortoise pulls through. It looks like you did a good job cleaning the wound. How long did it take you from start to finish?


----------



## ALDABRAMAN

N2TORTS said:


> DOC ..... Amazing and thank you for sharing! ... Wishing the best for a speedy recovery and wonderful job done!
> 
> JD~



 *I am on the same page as JD, Thank you for posting this thread. Great information and something for all sulcata owners to think about when housing multiple large males together.*


----------



## Tom

Thanks Doc. A picture is worth a thousand words...

Hope treatment goes well and thanks to the owner for allowing you to post.


----------



## RV's mom

hope treatment is successful.. In the hospital setting we frequently see "open" abdomen - packed and wrapped - each day reopened, inspected/evaluated, cleaned and re-wrapped...

hope this boy has positive outcome, and as Tom says
Picture is a thousand words...


teri


----------



## EKLC

Best of luck doc, he's in good hands. Keep us updated


----------



## Angi

Why did he have feces and dirt packed in there?


----------



## Yvonne G

I used to belong to the Sulcata group on YAHOO, and a few years ago saw pictures similar to these where a sulcata had rammed another sulcata. I could never find them to post here.

Thank you for sharing this tortoise's ordeal with us. Tortoises are extremely resilient. I hope he does well.


----------



## DesertGrandma

First, Thanks to you and your client for posting these photos. Assuming all goes well, the infection is cleared up and new growth of tissue has begun, how do you plan to permanently cover that opening in the shell?


----------



## yarok

Thats a pretty scary looking wound. Hope he heals ok.


----------



## Katherine

Thank you for sharing this story and pictures, we can never have enough reminders. I am glad they got him to you for treatment. I had a young Sulcata with similar injuries and it took 2 years before new shell began to close the open wound, but after a loooong recovery period she healed completely. I see you mentioned syran wrap, we ended up sealing our injury with a clear piece of plastic from a bag of lactated ringers, sterile side in. It needed periodic replacement but was durable enough not to tear and clear enough to allow us to check for obvious problems like drying and necrosis without having to remove it frequently. I hope the same outcome for this guy, they are resilient.


----------



## Laura

I assume the wound was full of dirt because when a male starts ramming, the bulldoze and push and shove and this porr guy probably got shoved all around the enclosure and thru the dirt.


----------



## Zamric

When I seperated WalkingRock and Rocky.... this is where it was headed! I stopped a vicious attack one day that had resulted in small cracks along the Skirt Scutes and the Main Scutes. I see now where it could have ended! 

Thanks for the Graphic Lesson.... Hope it opens a few eyes!


----------



## bfmorris

Angi said:


> Why did he have feces and dirt packed in there?




Lucky the big male didn't gular him head on. Those injuries are often fatal.

I think this little guy's chances are excellent.


----------



## l0velesly

Yikes, poor tortoise! I hope the treatment goes well. Did you give him any anesthesia? How are you going to replace the missing part of the shell?


----------



## reptile_luvr

This is so sad. I feel bad for the little guy, as well as his owner. I know that no owner wants to see their little ones injured this way. Thank you Doc for sharing this with me, it is very helpful. I have a young female Sulcata the same size as this guy and my husband has been nagging me to get another, however, I was undecided due to the upkeep, but after reading this I am not going to take on a second purely because I would hate to see either one injured. I hope for a speedy recovery for this little guy and hope that you will keep us updated!


----------



## [email protected]

Thanks for posting this. Heartbreaking, but fascinating. 

How does this damage happen? Is it ramming? Is there prying involved or plowing around? Is there biting and tearing? 

Will this male see a full recovery with this kind of damage?

Thanks for any education on this.


----------



## Snapper925

Thank you and thanks to the owner for this post!! 
This is great info, I eventually wanted a sulcata herd but am having other thoughts now,
Keep us posted


----------



## froghaven5

Wow. An interesting post and very educational. Thanks to you and the owners for posting pics. Hope he is doing well.


----------



## EricIvins

It may look graphic, but Chelonians are well adapted for these types of injuries........I've seen and kept a few road hits that were literally in pieces ( 10x worse than this ) make a full recovery with very little intervention.......


----------



## exoticsdr

I fully expect that he will make it, he will be coming in on Thursday for a recheck (and more pics)...I'm very interested on how it is going to look.


----------



## Nay

I'll add my thanks for taking the time to show us.
Nay


----------



## Akronic

those pics remind me of when i broke my fore arm and they installed titanium plates on both the radius and the ulna, but they could only sew up one half of my arm cuz the swelling was so bad. we had to wait like 2weeks of changing dressing 3x a day and it looked almost like the last pic.......minus the dirt and feces OFC haha. man that is a mad battle wound. glad i went w/ the Russians, ive seen the greeks ramming but nothing on that scale. good luck


----------



## Kerryann

Wow  Thanks for sharing


----------



## wildak

Have you ever used medical grade honey in those types of wounds to keep bacteria out and keep it moist ? I guess it works wonders in the right situations.


----------



## exoticsdr

absolutely, it works great!


----------



## Baoh

wildak said:


> Have you ever used medical grade honey in those types of wounds to keep bacteria out and *keep it moist* ? I guess it works wonders in the right situations.



To speak to this, I just want to point out that the osmotic pressure will actually draw fluid from the animal to the honey, which will in turn lose water to its ambient environment if the concentration is lower (and it typically is unless soaking/raining/what-have-you), so providing peroxides and other benefits are of a greater role than keeping the wound moist.

I have also use it successfully, by the way, in rescue animals.





EricIvins said:


> It may look graphic, but Chelonians are well adapted for these types of injuries........I've seen and kept a few road hits that were literally in pieces ( 10x worse than this ) make a full recovery with very little intervention.......



I have found a number of nearly flattened Hermann's in nature that healed despite severe crush injuries. I have found an adult female that only had rear legs, too, which was kind of interesting, although the way the tissue looked to me indicated lack of development rather than amputation in that case.


----------



## blackbird

wildak said:


> Have you ever used medical grade honey in those types of wounds to keep bacteria out and keep it moist ? I guess it works wonders in the right situations.



I was wondering about that too! Good to know it can be used..


----------



## exoticsdr

Baoh said:


> wildak said:
> 
> 
> 
> Have you ever used medical grade honey in those types of wounds to keep bacteria out and *keep it moist* ? I guess it works wonders in the right situations.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To speak to this, I just want to point out that the osmotic pressure will actually draw fluid from the animal to the honey, which will in turn lose water to its ambient environment if the concentration is lower (and it typically is unless soaking/raining/what-have-you), so providing peroxides and other benefits are of a greater role than keeping the wound moist.
> 
> I have also use it successfully, by the way, in rescue animals.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EricIvins said:
> 
> 
> 
> It may look graphic, but Chelonians are well adapted for these types of injuries........I've seen and kept a few road hits that were literally in pieces ( 10x worse than this ) make a full recovery with very little intervention.......
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I have found a number of nearly flattened Hermann's in nature that healed despite severe crush injuries. I have found an adult female that only had rear legs, too, which was kind of interesting, although the way the tissue looked to me indicated lack of development rather than amputation in that case.
Click to expand...




I chose not to use honey or other osmotic initially because of the exposed pleura and the danger of dehydration of that particular tissue, however after a nice bed of granulation tissue forms I may use it for any problem areas along the shell edges. I would also stay away from peroxides because of their strong oxidative properties for fear of damaging the pleura or slowing development of the new granulation bed.


----------



## Baoh

exoticsdr said:


> Baoh said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> wildak said:
> 
> 
> 
> Have you ever used medical grade honey in those types of wounds to keep bacteria out and *keep it moist* ? I guess it works wonders in the right situations.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To speak to this, I just want to point out that the osmotic pressure will actually draw fluid from the animal to the honey, which will in turn lose water to its ambient environment if the concentration is lower (and it typically is unless soaking/raining/what-have-you), so providing peroxides and other benefits are of a greater role than keeping the wound moist.
> 
> I have also use it successfully, by the way, in rescue animals.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EricIvins said:
> 
> 
> 
> It may look graphic, but Chelonians are well adapted for these types of injuries........I've seen and kept a few road hits that were literally in pieces ( 10x worse than this ) make a full recovery with very little intervention.......
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I have found a number of nearly flattened Hermann's in nature that healed despite severe crush injuries. I have found an adult female that only had rear legs, too, which was kind of interesting, although the way the tissue looked to me indicated lack of development rather than amputation in that case.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I chose not to use honey or other osmotic initially because of the exposed pleura and the danger of dehydration of that particular tissue, however after a nice bed of granulation tissue forms I may use it for any problem areas along the shell edges. I would also stay away from peroxides because of their strong oxidative properties for fear of damaging the pleura or slowing development of the new granulation bed.
Click to expand...




I would not use honey for this magnitude of injury, either. Also, the peroxides I referred to are inherently present in the honey. I am not talking about applying H2O2 solution or anything like that.

How long did the irrigation and cleaning process take you from start to finish?


----------



## exoticsdr

Boah...don't look, but your chemical engineering is showing....hahaha. Of course, when you said peroxides, I assumed you meant hydrogen peroxide and not those naturally found in the honey (btw, didn't realize that bit of info)....thanks my friend. The cleaning didn't take very long, maybe 15 or 20 minutes....now just hoping that the owner does the follow-up exams that I want...not looking good, so far has missed both....first to an auto break-in and todays for an unknown reason....Oh well, you can lead a tortoise to water, but you can't make him drink. Doc


----------



## Baoh

exoticsdr said:


> Boah...don't look, but your chemical engineering is showing....hahaha. Of course, when you said peroxides, I assumed you meant hydrogen peroxide and not those naturally found in the honey (btw, didn't realize that bit of info)....thanks my friend. The cleaning didn't take very long, maybe 15 or 20 minutes....now just hoping that the owner does the follow-up exams that I want...not looking good, so far has missed both....first to an auto break-in and todays for an unknown reason....Oh well, you can lead a tortoise to water, but you can't make him drink. Doc



Heh. I appreciate the sharing of information in either or both directions, so thank you. That is a shame the follow-ups were skipped.


----------



## LeaderLeprechaun

omg that poor baby. thanks for the post. i wish yall the best of luck


----------

