# Thoughts on conservation/hobbyists?



## TortLaw (Sep 4, 2014)

So this is just something I've been thinking about, and I don't really have an answer or opinion because I guess maybe I don't have enough information, so I wanted thoughts from the experienced guys and gals on here. I see a lot about how turtle/tortoise hobbyists are helping with conservation efforts, like the TTPG. My question is how are hobbyists really helping with conservation efforts? Zoos and groups like the Darwin Foundation save and breed and may release certain species back into the wild, but I haven't really heard of hobbyists breeding any endangered species except for the Egyptian tortoise which is still quite rare as far as I'm aware, and I haven't heard of any hobbyists helping to repopulate in the wild at all. I guess the only real example I have of conservation is seeing the California Desert Tortoise being taken in by so many, but I haven't really heard of wild repopulation efforts.

Further, it's difficult for me, as I'm sure it is for all of you, to see people giving up their torts because they get too big, or they are bored with them, or worse--they just die because of improper care. I know this happens with all animals, but as far as conservation efforts go, I just find it difficult to understand how hobbyists are helping the torts when the babies are then sold as pets and many are not properly cared for. 

I have three cherryheads ranging from 4 months to 1 year and 4 months in age. They are still babies, but they seem happy and outgoing and are thriving well. I know I will have them for the rest of their lives. I waited a long time to get them until I could properly care for them. Within the next few years, I will be buying a small ranch property, 5+ acres, and they will have plenty of room. I want to acquire more when I do have more room, and I would like to contribute to conservation efforts. I already do in so much that I am raising my son who turns 4 next month to appreciate tortoises and teach him how to care for them properly. (He loves them already even though I still don't let him hold them yet.) I also talk to people about tortoises all the time and inform them about the care they need and how rash decisions to purchase them as pets is really detrimental to them more often than not. 

So in sum, the real question, more or less, is how can hobbyists truly contribute to conservation efforts?


----------



## Alaskamike (Sep 5, 2014)

This is an interesting question. On the one hand, hobbyists encourage the keeping of torts as 'pets' and the breeding of them for sale as pets. It is also hobby keepers who for the most part brought about the wild caught pet trade. So in some sense it is the hobbyists that have caused at least some of the problems in conservation of species. 

Arguably the biggest contributor to species demise has been habitat disruption from human encroachment and abuse. 

Can a hobbyists help with conservation efforts? Of course they can , just like any citizen can:
- Help publicize the issues in conservation
- Discourage wild caught sale in pet stores
- Support organizations that care and make a difference

There are a few hobbyist who have moved from private collections to rescue. And one couple I know who moved from rescue to breeding for conservation, but this can be expensive and is just about a full time (unpaid) job.


----------



## wellington (Sep 5, 2014)

This is a question that @tortadise can answer for you. He is involved with a lot of tortoise stuff.


----------



## tortadise (Sep 5, 2014)

Mainly captive breeding eliminates the demand for WC specimens. So in turn the supply of wild caught specimens goes drastically down in theory. It all boils down to money really. Wild caught are cheaper, but have a chance of not adapting, or even dying. But they are cheaper. So many people want an exotic pet but don't want to spend the money. So they go with WC because they're cheaper than a captive bred specimen. But not all the time. So that's where good public education comes in at. Like this forum for instance. We can't catch all the people buying WC but we can at least help as much as possible. 

Some things I do believe strike nerves with me about lots of organizations that claim they breed for conservation but yet get waivered by greed. For instance I know many people breeding platynota(Burmese star) that could easily give even a mere 10% of their hatchlings to organizations that could reintroduce them I pack into the wild. After screening medically, and making sure they are suited to be released. But at 1000-1400 a piece they can't resist the money. When a lot of species we work with here that are critically endangered like that are able to produce. I assure they will be placed in the hands of organizations that will reintroduce them, and never be sold. There definitely is a huge unbalance of things in "conservation". 

Conservation has two stereotypes. Captive conservation and grass roots conservation. The grass roots conservation is severely undone than the "captive conservation" in my opinion because of greed. Greed whether it be monies, or self entitlement to fame. 

People suck is what I'm getting at. Humanity has defiled the nature of this planet for monetary gain and self righteous arrogance. I don't have much time right now. So this is all I can put forth for now,


----------



## mike taylor (Sep 5, 2014)

You said it all! People get into tortoises for the love of the animal, then they find out hey I can sell these animals to pay for my tortoises care . Not caring that rescues are full of desert tortoises and sulcatas . There's people on this forum that breed and sell them . The sulcata tortoise in Africa is in trouble . We have breeders here that can setup or try to send some back to be introduced to the wild . Will it happen probably not . But this is a good question . It's questions like this that get people thinking . Hey I can do something for the good of the animal not my pocket . So talk to the wildlife department in your area and see what you can do .


----------



## mike taylor (Sep 5, 2014)

Remember we can all prevent forest fires!


----------



## Abdulla6169 (Sep 5, 2014)

mike taylor said:


> You said it all! People get into tortoises for the love of the animal, then they find out hey I can sell these animals to pay for my tortoises care . Not caring that rescues are full of desert tortoises and sulcatas . There's people on this forum that breed and sell them . The sulcata tortoise in Africa is in trouble . We have breeders here that can setup or try to send some back to be introduced to the wild . Will it happen probably not . But this is a good question . It's questions like this that get people thinking . Hey I can do something for the good of the animal not my pocket . So take to the wildlife department in your area and see what you can do .


It would be nice if more zoos worked with releasing tortoises into the wild...


----------



## mike taylor (Sep 5, 2014)

Why does it have to be zoos? We as land snatching people can help too . After all when you think about it we caused it all . Like the desert tortoise they didn't ask for us to put wind mills to make power in their front yard or be negligent and let exotic plants take over and choke out their food plants . To help this go out in the desert and start pulling exotic plant and plant the plants that should be in the desert. I can go all day on stuff like this . One person can make a difference everything gets fixed once someone starts working on it and it gets fixed fast when more people are working on it .


----------



## Turtlepete (Sep 5, 2014)

tortadise said:


> Some things I do believe strike nerves with me about lots of organizations that claim they breed for conservation but yet get waivered by greed. For instance I know many people breeding platynota(Burmese star) that could easily give even a mere 10% of their hatchlings to organizations that could reintroduce them I pack into the wild. After screening medically, and making sure they are suited to be released. But at 1000-1400 a piece they can't resist the money. When a lot of species we work with here that are critically endangered like that are able to produce. I assure they will be placed in the hands of organizations that will reintroduce them, and never be sold. There definitely is a huge unbalance of things in "conservation".
> 
> People suck is what I'm getting at. Humanity has defiled the nature of this planet for monetary gain and self righteous arrogance. I don't have much time right now. So this is all I can put forth for now,



Kelly, I think you summed it up really well. The only question I'd ask, is sometimes hobbyists can't _really _participate, in the case of releasing them. Sure, it would be fantastic if we could, but the organizations that do that kind of thing seem so very exclusive. Like a lot of the studbooks/SSP's, they often don't really want to be involved with hobbyists, at least it seems that way. I know they have their reasons, but I feel like if there were a little more trust there, the situation might be a little bit better? Instead, hobbyists just produce the animals they have and (hopefully) try to place them with other hobbyists that will also reproduce them, so they at least bolster their captive numbers, forming an "assurance colony" of sorts. My point is, do they really have the option to send their platynota they produce back to the wild?
I could be totally wrong. I don't know of any of these re-introduction organizations (besides the C. Flavo TMG), so of course I've never tried to contact any of them. I really don't know. I've just heard a lot about how these types of organizations don't like to be involved with hobbyists. If it is that easy to just send them back to the wild, then it's a shame that more people aren't doing it, indeed.

On the other side of the coin, I know quite a few hobbyists that are skeptical about the whole re-introduction scenario. Unfortunately, there are many that are more concerned with the personal fame you mentioned, or monetary gain. Not to mention, not everyone trusts groups like the TSA so much. Again, I feel like if these conservation organizations and serious hobbyists worked together more, it would improve the situation a lot more. There just doesn't always seem to be a mutual trust there...


----------



## Neal (Sep 5, 2014)

TortLaw said:


> So in sum, the real question, more or less, is how can hobbyists truly contribute to conservation efforts?



A good answer, as I see it, is sharing knowledge.

Tomas Diagne comes to my mind as a good example of how sharing knowledge benefits conservation efforts. If you don't know who he is, I'd recommend researching him and the African Chelonian Institute. He has attended the last several TTPG conferences here in AZ and I have observed him discussing different aspects of tortoise care and conservation with members there and I have been privileged to be a part of a couple of those conversations. The things he discusses and learns from other hobbyists and breeders can be brought back with him to African to help in his conservation efforts. There are several others who attend that event regularly just like him that help in conservation efforts around the world.

There is a lot to learn from captive breeding that can't be learned from a textbook or any sort of publication. It's one of those things where it's difficult to fully understand it enough to then educate someone else or promote practical conservation efforts unless you actually gain that knowledge from hands on experience. That has been my experience anyway. Think of all we have learned and discussed here on the forum about the importance of humidity and hydration and think about how that compares to what we thought we knew about how wild tortoises survive in the wild not too long ago. This knowledge helps us understand what wild tortoises need, and can ensure that wild specimens, or specimens that will be released into the wild, have the best chance for success.

Captive breeding by hobbyists like you and me helps ensure that future generations will have the same opportunities to learn about tortoises and to share that knowledge with others who have the opportunity to work with wild populations of tortoises which will continue to benefit and preserve their futures.


----------



## Tom (Sep 5, 2014)

The problem with reintroduction to the wild, is that the problem that caused vast reductions in the wild numbers still exists. Where would you put those 10% of captive bred Burmese stars? They'd just get eaten, poached, or run over because their environment has been ruined by humans and is not yet restored. The solution is for the world's billionaires to buy up millions of acres in these areas, hire the right wildlife staffers and guards, and create protected and managed areas for these animals to be reintroduced to. Hiring the locals and making them realize that they can earn a living and feed their families by PROTECTING these animals and areas, instead of wiping them out, is a very important step too.

Meanwhile almost all of the knowhow and advances in captive breeding knowledge are coming from the private sector. Always have and always will. Zoos and their personnel ask _us_ how to do it. Zoos have a deplorable track record of captive breeding. Look at Greg here on our forum. I'll bet that he produces more CB Aldabras than all the Zoos in the US combined every year.

I think Mike's suggestion of actually doing something is the best one yet.

In the mean time, people like me will continue trying to learn all I can about captive breeding, share it, perfect the techniques, and hopefully have enough captive bred animals to be able to resupply the wild in the event that large wild safe havens ever do become available, and reduce or eliminate the need for WC imports of most species. I'm doing my part. I bought 20 CB russian babies last year to raise up and become a breeding colony. If anyone thinks I'm going to get rich from breeding a few russians, we should have another conversation... If everyone bred their pet russians, or at least attempted to, their would be far less need for WC ones.


----------



## Turtlepete (Sep 5, 2014)

Tom said:


> The problem with reintroduction to the wild, is that the problem that caused vast reductions in the wild numbers still exists. Where would you put those 10% of captive bred Burmese stars? They'd just get eaten, poached, or run over because their environment has been ruined by humans and is not yet restored. The solution is for the world's billionaires to buy up millions of acres in these areas, hire the right wildlife staffers and guards, and create protected and managed areas for these animals to be reintroduced to. Hiring the locals and making them realize that they can earn a living and feed their families by PROTECTING these animals and areas, instead of wiping them out, is a very important step too.
> 
> Meanwhile almost all of the knowhow and advances in captive breeding knowledge are coming from the private sector. Always have and always will. Zoos and their personnel ask _us_ how to do it. Zoos have a deplorable track record of captive breeding. Look at Greg here on our forum. I'll bet that he produces more CB Aldabras than all the Zoos in the US combined every year.
> 
> ...



Excellent thoughts. That is my concern; if re-introduction is to happen, where will they go? The typical idea is "protected reserves", but I've always been a little clueless as to what that means. Just a little sketchy, without seeing for yourself where these areas are.

And I completely agree in the idea of hiring and educating the locals. This is one thing I love about the TSA. And, sadly, this is one thing that hobbyists can have pretty much no effect on. Protecting local habitats, as well, is something we just can't really have any effect on.


----------



## Benjamin (Sep 5, 2014)

I'd like to think some good has/will come from my efforts as a hobbyist breeder.


----------



## Tom (Sep 5, 2014)

It has, and it will Benjamin. There is no arguing that. Your accomplishments and those of other breeders like you is unquestionable. I, for one, thank you.


----------



## Grandpa Turtle 144 (Sep 5, 2014)

I'm sorry I think a lot of these Org. Do some good and I think if we a going to discuss the bad I wish we could talk about the good too . 
TortLaw you said you are planning "sml ranch property , 5+acres " well I been thing about a 40 acre ranch but what are your plans for predictors . I've thought about male geese . 


Sent from my iPhone using TortForum


----------



## tortadise (Sep 5, 2014)

Tom said:


> The problem with reintroduction to the wild, is that the problem that caused vast reductions in the wild numbers still exists. Where would you put those 10% of captive bred Burmese stars? They'd just get eaten, poached, or run over because their environment has been ruined by humans and is not yet restored. The solution is for the world's billionaires to buy up millions of acres in these areas, hire the right wildlife staffers and guards, and create protected and managed areas for these animals to be reintroduced to. Hiring the locals and making them realize that they can earn a living and feed their families by PROTECTING these animals and areas, instead of wiping them out, is a very important step too.
> 
> Meanwhile almost all of the knowhow and advances in captive breeding knowledge are coming from the private sector. Always have and always will. Zoos and their personnel ask _us_ how to do it. Zoos have a deplorable track record of captive breeding. Look at Greg here on our forum. I'll bet that he produces more CB Aldabras than all the Zoos in the US combined every year.
> 
> ...


Very well put. The billionaires and that explaination if exactly how it could work. I sure hope to see more steps forward in the future for reintroduction. Grass roots is very important. But so is captive conservation. I thought of you when I was typing the WC statement in my post earlier. That is exactly what needs to happen. Offer captive. Flood the market with captie bred to stop the imports. This topic for sure has many double edged swords to it. I totally agree with you and Neal. Education is a huge step forward to progress.

Mike also has the right idea. Go out and do just a little bit.


----------



## Tom (Sep 5, 2014)

TortLaw said:


> My question is how are hobbyists really helping with conservation efforts? Zoos and groups like the Darwin Foundation save and breed and may release certain species back into the wild, but I haven't really heard of hobbyists breeding any endangered species except for the Egyptian tortoise which is still quite rare as far as I'm aware, and I haven't heard of any hobbyists helping to repopulate in the wild at all.



You appear to be out of touch with reality. ALL of the endangered species are being bred by private individuals whenever the private sector can get hold of them. There are literally thousands and thousands of Radiata bred every year by private hobbyists. I don't have a count, and there is no way to get one, but hundreds of burmese stars are bred every year and when the generations that are hatching out now reach maturity, there will be tons of them. The entire pyxis genus is only being bred by captive hobbyists. Same for Coura. If any zoos are producing Galops, I haven't heard about it, but Jerry Fife is. There would be more Galops bred but there is a shortage of males in captive collections and the Zoos refuse to share them on breeding loans. Same with just about any other species. Pancakes, Aldabras, South African Leopards, Western Hermanni and sooooo many others that are not considered "endangered" are also being bred by private owners.

The problem here seems to be_ your_ perception of who is breeding what. You haven't heard of it, but its certainly happening all over the country. I invite you to come to the TTPG conference in AZ this year and see first hand how wrong you are about this.


----------



## Tom (Sep 5, 2014)

TortLaw said:


> Further, it's difficult for me, as I'm sure it is for all of you, to see people giving up their torts because they get too big, or they are bored with them, or worse--they just die because of improper care. I know this happens with all animals, but as far as conservation efforts go, I just find it difficult to understand how hobbyists are helping the torts when the babies are then sold as pets and many are not properly cared for.



This thread and your initial post are about conservation efforts and what private breeders do or don't contribute. I don't see what the above has to do with this. I don't see any private owners dumping or failing to care for rare and endangered tortoises like Galops and Radiata. In fact the worse captive situations I have seen for these rare and uncommon species has been in Zoos. We have threads on this regularly. The rare and endangered tortoises in private collections are housed and cared for infinitely better than the vast majority of the ones I have seen at Zoos and institutions around the country. I'm sad to say, but you appear to have this one backwards. My tortoises are cared for FAR better than any tortoise in any Zoo I've ever seen.

Further, NOBODY buys a $1500 radiata, $1200 platynota or $5000 Galop, and then doesn't take care of it. Nobody I've ever seen. This might happen with the odd Petco Russian, or the pet store bought sulcata from time to time, but its not happening with species that are rare, endangered, or in need of conservation.


----------



## Abdulla6169 (Sep 5, 2014)

Tom said:


> You appear to be out of touch with reality. ALL of the endangered species are being bred by private individuals whenever the private sector can get hold of them. There are literally thousands and thousands of Radiata bred every year by private hobbyists. I don't have a count, and there is no way to get one, but hundreds of burmese stars are bred every year and when the generations that are hatching out now reach maturity, there will be tons of them. The entire pyxis genus is only being bred by captive hobbyists. Same for Coura. If any zoos are producing Galops, I haven't heard about it, but Jerry Fife is. There would be more Galops bred but there is a shortage of males in captive collections and the Zoos refuse to share them on breeding loans. Same with just about any other species. Pancakes, Aldabras, South African Leopards, Western Hermanni and sooooo many others that are not considered "endangered" are also being bred by private owners.
> 
> The problem here seems to be_ your_ perception of who is breeding what. You haven't heard of it, but its certainly happening all over the country. I invite you to come to the TTPG conference in AZ this year and see first hand how wrong you are about this.


Zurich zoo has just hatched galops, by the way. And I think their water bowls are way too steep...


----------



## mike taylor (Sep 5, 2014)

The Houston zoo has a breeding program for Galapagos tortoises also . The best place to learn about conservation is at your local zoo . Go volunteer and learn.


----------



## Abdulla6169 (Sep 6, 2014)

mike taylor said:


> The Houston zoo has a breeding program for Galapagos tortoises also . The best place to learn about conservation is at your local zoo . Go volunteer and learn.


The best zoo here is the Al-Ain zoo, but it's like more than an hour away. The closest zoo to me has really bad sulcata care, the area is too small, the diet is *probably* wrong too


----------



## Alaskamike (Sep 6, 2014)

I think the hobbyists have contributed greatly to the knowledge base for every species. Several have mentioned this already. It is not a small contribution in conservation. 

And there are some tortoises that may have larger populations in the hobby collections than in the wild.


----------



## Tom (Sep 6, 2014)

mike taylor said:


> The Houston zoo has a breeding program for Galapagos tortoises also . The best place to learn about conservation is at your local zoo . Go volunteer and learn.



Nearly every Zoo has a breeding program, but are they producing any babies?


----------



## tortadise (Sep 6, 2014)

Tom said:


> Nearly every Zoo has a breeding program, but are they producing any babies?


The only zoo I know that produces successfully Aldabra/Galapagos and utilizes them in a program for other zoos is Gladys porter in Brownsville. Your absolutely correct Tom on this issue.


----------



## mike taylor (Sep 6, 2014)

Tom said:


> Nearly every Zoo has a breeding program, but are they producing any babies?


Yes they have been producing Galapagos tortoises for a few years now . They have them setup in a large enclosure not really on display. You can see them but not up close so people can't stress them out .


----------



## Tom (Sep 6, 2014)

mike taylor said:


> Yes they have been producing Galapagos tortoises for a few years now . They have them setup in a large enclosure not really on display. You can see them but not up close so people can't stress them out .



That is very good news. I'm glad to hear it!


----------



## Kapidolo Farms (Sep 6, 2014)

There ought to made a distinction between in-situ and ex-situ conservation. Hobbyists influence in-situ conservation by breeding and changing demand on WC animals. Sometimes by popularizing a species which increases WC sales in part becuase CB falls short of the demand from popularization, sometimes by replacing WC with CB (often accompanied by some sort of legislation, ouch). One way that I do not see implemented for hobbyists (we are ex-situ) is using some proceeds to help in-situ efforts. Say for example someone who breeds about 100 $2000 dollar animals a year, gross is 200K yeah(?), how about getting a small bit to an in-situ scenario.

In-situ big boys like TSA, WCS, FFI, etc, tend to waste lots of $$. I know this from extended personal crossover interest and activites, really I do. I have an idea for a in-situ conservation program, last time I broached it here (indirectly) I got shouted down about being intersted in science mumbo jumbo. Just need one 501c3 NGO and we can make great things happen. I've done it before and can do it again. I'm pretty good at sqeezing a great deal of utility out of not so much $$ for this kind of thing. I've tried floating the idea with a few 'herp' type clubs, but those people are very itnerary driven, and a bit control freakish. 

Then the crossover between hobbyists and non-hobbyists will blur a great deal, and this question that started this thread will become a bit more moot.


----------



## Alaskamike (Sep 6, 2014)

If you get something like that going Will.... let me know. I would be interested in helping.


----------

