# Strange question about inbreeding



## ustwoandthekids (Dec 21, 2014)

Bit of a strange question but do tortoises have to be non related to breed like other animals? (Not something I'm planning on doing just wondering)


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## russian/sulcata/tortoise (Dec 21, 2014)

if you put mature torts of the opposite gender together they will breed. even if they are related.


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## G-stars (Dec 21, 2014)

Yes it's the same thing as other animals. I wouldn't put related species of the opposite sex together.


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## ustwoandthekids (Dec 21, 2014)

But would the babies have problems like other animals do like deformities etc? Reason I wondered was round my area there is not many different breeders that sell the same species and as many people buy pairs so chance of interbreeding


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## russian/sulcata/tortoise (Dec 21, 2014)

ustwoandthekids said:


> But would the babies have problems like other animals do like deformities etc? Reason I wondered was round my area there is not many different breeders that sell the same species and as many people buy pairs so chance of interbreeding


i think it takes a couple of generations of inbreeding to create any real problems.


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## G-stars (Dec 21, 2014)

With any species when interbreeding occurs there is a greater possibility of the offspring being deformed.


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## Tom (Dec 21, 2014)

It would take more generations for there to be problems than it would for mammals.

And btw, tortoises should not be housed in pairs.


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## Yvonne G (Dec 21, 2014)

Inbreeding doesn't cause deformities. What it does is strengthen any poor qualities running in the line. So if your tortoise has a tendency to have knock knees and you breed him to his sister, the resultant babies will have more of a chance of having knock knees. Inbreeding enhances the chances of certain weakness that might be present.


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## G-stars (Dec 21, 2014)

Tom said:


> It would take more generations for there to be problems than it would for mammals.
> 
> And btw, tortoises should not be housed in pairs.



Can you explain why it would take more generations for tortoises than mammals?


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## Tom (Dec 21, 2014)

G-stars said:


> Can you explain why it would take more generations for tortoises than mammals?



Nope. Just what I was taught by professors who know a lot more than I do. They explained it well, but those details escape my ever aging mind. I'm sure it would be easy to research and find more solid info.

Just for fun, it would take even longer to see any issues from inbred insects, like roaches. I recall the statistic that it would take 99 generations, or more, to see any sort of genetic abnormalities from a single pair of roaches. Add a third roach of either sex and it jumps to 999 generations or more. I can't back any of this with scientific citations. As I said, its just what I remember from school so many years ago.


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## ustwoandthekids (Dec 21, 2014)

I personally wouldnt keep in pairs anyway but often see them for sale as babies in pairs!! I have 4 different species of tortoises all kept separate but was just something I've always wondered


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## G-stars (Dec 21, 2014)

Tom said:


> Nope. Just what I was taught by professors who know a lot more than I do. They explained it well, but those details escape my ever aging mind. I'm sure it would be easy to research and find more solid info.
> 
> Just for fun, it would take even longer to see any issues from inbred insects, like roaches. I recall the statistic that it would take 99 generations, or more, to see any sort of genetic abnormalities from a single pair of roaches. Add a third roach of either sex and it jumps to 999 generations or more. I can't back any of this with scientific citations. As I said, its just what I remember from school so many years ago.



Interesting. I wonder if that's a reptile thing and not exclusive to tortoises.


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## G-stars (Dec 21, 2014)

So I looked around and found that mammals tend to travel further to mate. While reptiles can handle and cope better with inbreeding because they don't travel as far and the same with insects.


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## Tom (Dec 21, 2014)

G-stars said:


> So I looked around and found that mammals tend to travel further to mate. While reptiles can handle and cope better with inbreeding because they don't travel as far and the same with insects.



The explanation I got had to to with the simplicity of their DNA in comparison to the complexity of mammal DNA. It was not based on proximity to potential mates.

I would love for someone with a correct understanding of these things to come along and explain it well for us all.


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## G-stars (Dec 21, 2014)

Yes I read that too. From what I understood reptile's and insect's DNA isn't as complicated as mammals DNA. Part of that was because of how much older reptiles and insects are compared to mammals. Some of the oldest living creatures on earth have the simplest DNA makeup.


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## N2TORTS (Dec 21, 2014)

I know there are lots of opinions on this but…………Look at Locality Island animals ...talk about inbreeding?
Inbreeding increases the chances of recessive traits being expressed. If no deleterious ones are carried (entire pop. is homozygous for a trait, or the recessive trait does not affect the animal adversely) inbreeding has little effect...look at lab mice and guppies for example.
Deleterious genes are typically rare in populations, especially lethal ones. The idea that inbreeding will automatically lead to some gross defect is misleading. Certainly the risk is increased but the possibility is still small. Poor nutritional or environmental conditions can also be enhanced as risk factors when paired with a line bred mutation. Does anyone really believe that the only role melanin plays in the body is to create dark pigmentation in the skin? Mutations that disrupt metabolic pathways (such as amelanism) can potentially lead to other developmental outcomes aside from the obvious ones we see and are breeding for.

Genetics 101 simply= that the first result of inbreeding is inbreeding depression or the lowered fitness of individuals within a population. A lot of inbreeding depression is masked by captive conditions where animals do not face the rigors of the wild. Further, we create our own form of inbreeding depression by ensuring that all animals in a clutch or litter survive to reproduce. In the wild, typically 90% or greater would die in the first season, removing the weaker genes. This has been well proved and established in other stocks of animals, fish for example- in fish hatcheries where salmon and steelhead raised in raceways have a lowered fitness even 2 generations out. I really don't think inbreeding affects the animal other than producing some interesting morphological traits. Although with tortoises this is a long journey to prove out with the first 7-10 years –just reaching a young breed able adult in the Redfoot world.
Inbreeding can and is mostly done to bring out certain traits that aren't normally expressed in a population, or to combine certain traits which make them more desirable in the hobby. With some species/forms, new specimens just aren't available.
Another good analogy “Population structure and Inbreeding from pedigree analysis of purebred dogs”
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2390636/

In my own Hypo program and 10 years later .....I have yet not inbred any of my animals , simply for the fact I don't need to prove out any recessive gene I'm looking for. (why you see variance between the 3 adult Hypos .....all non related ) I have only kept 2 out of the many Hypo's hatched here at the Cove' ......and a good 10 years down the line to see if "that" particular gene proves out .


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## ustwoandthekids (Dec 22, 2014)

All a bit confusing I think!!


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## ZEROPILOT (Dec 22, 2014)

Great question...And one that I could NOT answer. None of my torts are related, but it would have bothered me to interbreed. The cast of the movie DELIVERANCE comes to mind with tiny fiddle playing tortoises. Frightening.


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## N2TORTS (Dec 22, 2014)

My Brother and I look nothing ' alike .....


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## N2TORTS (Dec 22, 2014)

ustwoandthekids said:


> All a bit confusing I think!!


Try this ......
*Baby Steps Through the* 
*PUNNETT SQUARE

http://www.hobart.k12.in.us/jkousen/Biology/psquare.htm*


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## puffy137 (Dec 22, 2014)

I bought 2 hatchlings in 1993, & another 2 in 1995, both pairs were obviously from the same clutches. Now I have 25 all healthy no deformities .So if that helps.


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