# morals



## Yvonne G (Jan 27, 2010)

Seems to me that we (humans) are getting more relaxed in our moral code. I'm not saying that we should stay in the dark ages or have the morals of the Elizabethan period, but I think as a whole, we're really getting too relaxed in what is ok and what is not.

TV shows never used to be able to use "cuss" words. Now it is quite common to hear them on any channel, even the regular network shows. So instead of maintaining our high moral standards, we are lowering the bar. It is no longer frowned upon to have a baby out of wed-lock. It is not longer considered wrong to live together outside of marriage. And people can say any old cuss word they feel like saying at any time in any place.

I'm not a prude, but I think that when we get our kids accustomed to hearing "sh.." F..", etc. on TV, its just a hop, skip and a jump for them to start using that kind of language too. 

I don't like it at all. I think we should keep our moral code in place, up high and stop lowering the bar.


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## Redfoot NERD (Jan 27, 2010)

AMEN! Literally...

Terry K


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## Isa (Jan 27, 2010)

Very true Yvonne, you are so right. I often wonder ''in what kind of society are we going'' (can you say that in english? I am not sure but we can say that in french)
Exept that my fiance and I bought a house before getting married but we are getting married in 3 months, so it makes it ok right? .


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## alfiethetortoise (Jan 27, 2010)

I agree with some of what your saying Yvonne. But unfortunately real life doesn't follow an absolute set of moral codes. I had a baby out ouf wedlock and it wasen't out of my own personal choice. But the reality, perhaps i would have been married and miserable and i certainly would have wound up divorced at some point. I also know of a lesbian couple who adopted a little boy with many problems who would otherwise been in and out of care his whole life, or would have waited years to get his typical 'mum/dad' in a nice house with four windows and an apple tree in the yard. Attitudes and societies change and evolve. Not all of it is bad.

I totally agree though that many people are too laid back and this reflects on morals. Laid back here is becoming an excuse for bone idle behaviour towards others. In my oppinion, it isn't good enough.


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## dmmj (Jan 27, 2010)

who's moral code are we talking about, I never considered cussing a moral issue myself, more of a society or good manners issue.Remember most "cuss" words are actually acronyms to describe something else, such as the S word it is actually from civil war times when they use to transport manure for fuel they used to stamp "Ship In High Transit" so they eventually just shortened it. Same thing with the F word. I follow my own moral compass myself


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## harris (Jan 27, 2010)

Personally, I'm more concerned about a young one's disregard for life. The video games today are so realistic it looks like you're shooting down an actual person. Growing up on that, I imagine it becomes hard for some to seperate that from reality. It's already there really. It used to be a real shocker when the headline of the news is about a 13 year old killing a person or two. Now you don't hear about it until the middle of the program and you really don't even bat an eyelash at it. Talk about relaxed.


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## DoctorCosmonaut (Jan 27, 2010)

I'm not sure if people really cuss anymore now than they did before. I think sailors have always talked like sailors. Maybe there is more exposure? But I think if you went to London in the 19th Century you would be shocked by some of the moral behavior you would be exposed to. Opium dens, drunken people, feces (and people pooping) in the streets, prostitutes down the alley ways, etc. Its all sort of relative in my opinion. I get what you are saying, but I think we might be fooling our selves in upholding the past.


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## terryo (Jan 27, 2010)

Ah Yvonne....the good old days. It's never going to get better....but as Brooke said some good has come from it. My son lived with a girl and they had a baby....the girl died, and he brought him to me when he was two days old. I adopted him and raised him as my own, and he is the joy of my life. He is my son. 
I watch comedians on cable, and I can't find anything funny about some of them....everything out of their mouth is so filthy, and every other word is f... And as Jordan said all these things went on since the beginning of time. Now we have TV..radio..Internet...etc. and everything is just more out in the open so it becomes acceptable....Unfortunately.


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## Stephanie Logan (Jan 27, 2010)

OK, OK, what a great chance to plug the Bill Bryson book The Mother Tongue: English and How It Got That Way. The chapter on cuss words will having laughing so hard you might wet yourself, to use a popular euphemism! 

I am a political liberal but a social conservative. For the last 22 years, I have been the ONLY mom in the neighborhood/school/world who does not let her kids ______________ (fill in the blank with one of the following: watch R-rated movies, watch garbage TV shows where teens have sex every time they brush their teeth, watch other garbage TV shows where people entertain their viewers by antics as coarse and sadistic as they can get away with, stay out past MY curfew, have a cell phone before high school, attend parties where I don't know or don't trust the parents to supervise, have a passenger in their car, or listen to the radio, within the first six months of licensing, talk on a cell phone in the car without pulling over first, hang out at malls, have money without earning it...you get the idea.) We also have had our kids do regular chores (daily and weekly) since they were six. They ALWAYS say "please" and "thank you" and answer the phone "Logan residence, Brock speaking". 

What drives me batty is when people compliment my kids but then say, "How do you ever get them to do/be/say that?" And I try to answer with a politely euphemistic variation of "We train them through endless, consistent, sometimes mind-boggling repetition till these things come automatically, and we praise them to reinforce good behaviors that we want them to make habits out of." It's not magic, but it is very hard to do when so many parents are more interested in appeasing their toddler/child/adolescent/teenager than in investing the huge amount of time and effort it takes to do it well. Then when the kid is 17 and a total maniac, ruling the household and extorting from his/her parents and siblings, the parents wonder why they just can't seem to manage their little angel, when they always have been so kind and given the child everything he/she wants! 

Sorry if I sound smug, I don't mean to. I still have two kids at home, and my youngest has certainly given me a run for my money since his sweet tiny feet hit the delivery table! He is a good kid by most standards, though, as well he should be with such excellent role models in his older siblings. 

I do agree with Terryo though, that the "good old days", at least as a historian sees the big picture, never existed. You give me any "good old" decade and three good things about it, and I'll remind you of 4-6 "bad" realities that existed simultaneously.


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## Jacqui (Jan 27, 2010)

I am finding this thread interesting, as it shows how different each of our standards are and where some of us place the lines crossing them.

I know a few cuss words (or what I think of as lower level ones) are ok with me, but once you get saying too many then I can't help but say, "Watch your language" to whomever is talking.  I am always complaining to my husband, how I dislike the fact that folks (TV, movies, CB, ect..,) don't seem to think they can talk, if they don't sprinkle in the swear words. Like I tell him, sprinkle them in and I start tuning out.

I would much rather see folks living together, mixed races or single sex couples, and/or having children out of wedlock, then folks living in bad marriages just because of "moral codes". How does that help the children or the people involved at all? Or folks back "hiding in the closet" and feeling they had to lie to everybody.

I guess I go with the comment about people no longer holding the life of other's as valuable or the ease with which folks can lie and cheat, (especially it seems those who try to "show off" their high moral values and so call christian followings), those are the areas which really get to me.

Sorry, but I don't think the good ole days were really all that much better.


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## Kadaan (Jan 27, 2010)

I'm not sure if it's more prevalent, or just more publicized. I definitely agree that there's more sex/cussing on TV than there was 10 years ago, but I don't know if that correlates to more sex/cussing in real life. The 70's were known for sex/drugs, so did the 'moral code' go up in the 80's?

The other thing is that many morals are based on cultural/societal norms. For example, what makes a cuss word a cuss word? Why is "dang it" generally considered acceptable when "damn it" isn't, when they're basically the same thing? Why is having a child out of wedlock considered immoral, but adopting a child outside of wedlock generally isn't as long as the child is being cared for? In other countries, different things are considered immoral. We don't think twice about seeing a woman in a skirt, but in the middle east you'd be scorned for showing your shoulders/neck/ankles. Does that mean the higher bar is better and we should encourage 100% skin coverage? Who gets to decide what "too low" and "too high" are?


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## terracolson (Jan 27, 2010)

Oh wow... I fell i should chime in being I am 28, raise in a christian home and know that all the above issue Yvonne has mentioned are 100% true.

Do i wish i was stricter on my life style, maybe, but its not like i can just change! 

Cursing i do try to control, but the wedlock issue...

I was diagnosed infertile when i was 16, so when me and my boyfriend made the commitment to each other to be with only each other, bam I got pregnant!! WHAT!! I am 25 years old, married divorced, (yeah, you didnt mention the divorce rate issue), I have never ever used birth control but i only have a option to abort, adopt or have. Of course being diagnoise infertile makes me believe this is my miracle baby, but marriage now? (actually sex before marriage is wrong to, but you didnt mention it) Its been 5 years and we are planning on getting married this year, we wanted to be sure it was right. Getting married just because of a child, thats what made divorce so common. (my mother and aunt did that and divorced)

So i am a poor example of a christian, but i am, and i live with my boyfriend and our child, working on making this better.
I teach my son, by verbal expression that drugs are bad, smoking is bad, sex before marraige is bad and making babies before your married is bad. My example may not be the best, but i can explain that to him later. 

Not sure where to say my morals are by your scale, but i feel that i am a great loveing person, who cares deeply for our elderly community and will sacrafice my life for my family or God

I know what i am living in is incorrect, but i cant just ruffle my nose and it change. 

My hubby is a pot smoker, i feel that is wrong, but he has a prescription and its 100% legal. 
(thats a whole different topic) but its part of my world, i have to deal with, and all i can do is tell him he stinks and refuse to kiss him...
I dont even know how i feel about the legalization. Is that a bad moral thing, or did God intend that plant for the cancer patients 


not sure i said anything important, but i atleast put some input in. 

I wish i could just record my self and post it on here!!


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## dmmj (Jan 27, 2010)

I just want to know who's moral code do we follow? judeo christian? muslim? sharia? society? jewish? if I left anyone out I am sorry.


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## Weloveourtortoise (Jan 27, 2010)

I was not going to comment-- will make it short-- Like dmmj-- which moral compass are we to follow??? And to cover sex, babies and living together before marriage--- That is a Christian / Puritan notion. Go back 100 years ago-- morals were very different than 50 years ago -- nevermind 500 years ago, 1000 years ago 3000 years ago. Atleast we teach our children that drugs are bad and actually have laws against physical abuse and rape.
-Bonnie


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## chadk (Jan 27, 2010)

sOK, forget morals and Absolute Truth vs moral relativism and all that. That is too deep and philosophical and won't get anywhere in this post.

I think another way to approach the topic is based on specific issues already touched on. And look at it from a social and cultural perspective. And yes, there is certainly moral decay compared to times past. But like others have said, it wasn't all roses either. Slavery comes to mind... But I would bet things like manners, respecting your elders, common decency, etc have definately gone way down hill. A sailor may have always had a bad mouth, but he would watch him self closely around women and children for example. Not so much now days... And all the nastiness mentioned above in the nasty parts of london were isolated to specific places... like red light districts we might call them now. In small towns and family neighborhoods, that would be un-acceptable. Now it pours into our TVs and magazine racks at the grocery store for ratings and $$$.

I'm in the same boat as Stephanie. I raise my kids with the values my wife and I esteem: humility, putting others first, respecting those around you, and so forth. It is hard work and many parents just aren't up for it and\or just don't know how.


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## Yvonne G (Jan 27, 2010)

Stephanie Logan said:


> ... answer the phone "Logan residence, Brock speaking".



I'll bet telephone callers are pretty surprised when they realize it really isn't "Brock" that's speaking!!


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## ChiKat (Jan 27, 2010)

dmmj said:


> who's moral code are we talking about, I never considered cussing a moral issue myself, more of a society or good manners issue.Remember most "cuss" words are actually acronyms to describe something else, such as the S word it is actually from civil war times when they use to transport manure for fuel they used to stamp "Ship In High Transit" so they eventually just shortened it. Same thing with the F word. I follow my own moral compass myself



I agree with this and I've tried to explain it to my mom many times but she doesn't understand. She was raised EXTREMELY conservatively and religiously. I always tell her I don't understand how "oh sh*t!" is so much worse than "oh shoot!"
But I have weird views about almost everything, you'll find  
(don't even get me started on our differing views of alcohol consumption )



Stephanie Logan said:


> watch garbage TV shows where teens have sex every time they brush their teeth



haha you always make me laugh


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## chadk (Jan 27, 2010)

LOL - like they'd show teens actually brushing their teeth!!


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## webskipper (Jan 27, 2010)

I'm worried about todays "children of the electronic age".

Kids or young adults, text rather than actually speak, they carry a game with them to keep the occupied, movies and tv are perceived as reality, pirating movies, girls have their own electronic friends, all this to avoid human interaction. 

Mom and Dad, Dad and Dad, Mom and Mom, used the tv as a babysitter.

The inability to interact affects the way people react to each other. Book smart means nothing when the person is unable to relate their feelings or speak out without going postal.

Yeah, cuss words are just a lazy way to express feelings.

FYI- the taste of soap probably hasn't changed much since I came home from school and flung the f-word around like an empty rum bottle, and I was four.


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## Shelly (Jan 27, 2010)

webskipper said:


> Kids or young adults, text rather than actually speak, they carry a game with them to keep the occupied, movies and tv are perceived as reality, pirating movies, girls have their own electronic friends, all this to avoid human interaction.



Amen. You have just described my 18 year old boy. His inability to communicate face to face in an open dialog is of great concern to me. His whole life is the computer, his cell phone and his IPod. He's a good kid, but talking openly to his parents is probably the most painful thing he has to do. 

As far as cussing goes, I feel swear words DO have a place in language, if used sparingly. A good swear word is simply a way to add an exclamation point to whatever you are saying. Overused, swearing becomes very tiresome.

One way I feel our morality as a nation has dramatically improved is in the area of discrimination against racial minorities and homosexuals. Years ago, people may have (arguably) had cleaner language, but they also murdered Emmett Till for smiling at a white woman. Nothing moral about that.

Too often, morality is viewed as an issue that relates only to sex. True morality is a rare wider ranging issue, to be sure.


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## Maggie Cummings (Jan 27, 2010)

Lucy and Desi Arnez were the "couple" of the '50s. They were married in real life and on their TV show but the censors made them sleep in twin beds. They couldn't be shown in the same bed. Times have changed tons since then.
Have you ever watched the Grammy's? Bands that make millions of dollars can't be bothered to dress decently, take a bath, run a comb thru their hair and their acceptance speeches are so interspersed with bad language that all you can hear is...and so bleep and bleep and then bleep. Can't they even be bothered to clean up their mouths in front of millions of viewers? Please will someone cover up Mariah Carey's phony boobs! They don't even look good.
I was born in San Francisco and raised there in the '60s. I spent a heck of a lot of time in the Haight. I was kewl...I got kicked out of school in the 9th grade and had my first child at 16. I believe I know firsthand what happened to the morals of today; I think that drugs, lack of education and lack of respect is a good part of what's "wrong" today. 
I spent most of my life with a red neck biker who had old fashioned morals and made my sons go to school, gave them chores and taught them to respect others, while he supported us by making and selling illegal drugs and stolen motorcycle parts.
I am guilty of using 4 letter words when I am talking one on one with a friend, but I would never talk like that in public and have been known to tell strangers to watch their language. 
I think the downfall or whatever you call it started in the '60s with drugs. I feel very lucky I came out of it with most of my brain cells. Both of my sons have grown to be really nice men. I am very proud of them. We always make jokes about sex drugs and rock and roll, but that's exactly what's wrong with the world today...


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## dmmj (Jan 27, 2010)

Maybe it comes dowm to a matter of respect, when i was a child every single adult I met I was told by my paretns to address them as mr and mrs. such ans such until i was given permission to addresss them by their first names. I am amazed by the number of kids that I meet for the firsttime and they just say what's up david instead of hello mr jones.

Re: swear words I once heard them referred to as word enhancers.


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## alfiethetortoise (Jan 28, 2010)

I agree, DMMJ, it's all about respect. And also with Stephanie - children learn from you, if you dont tell them no,or teach them another way to behave this is why they end up like this!

My friend has a little boy, aged 4. He thinks its ok to call adults 'stupid', he answers back, he will hit other children to the floor if they take a toy he wants, and he will throw wooden balls around other peoples living rooms, has no manners, he wants and demands everything and tantrums if he doesnt get it, he has no respect for others. His mum thinks his miss behaviour comes from school. He has been in school one term. The reality is that he isn't diciplined effectively. She thinks his cheek is good because it shows he has personality.... then gets annoyed when he miss behaves.

Now, i dont want to sound big headed but Ava is not yet two. She says please and thank you to everything (with encouragement sometimes), will put her toys away when she has finished with them. She will say hello to people on the street. She doesn't push other children in tantrum if they take her toy, she asks for it back nicely and if they dont comply she will tell an adult. She always eats her dinner. Sure she has had a tantrum, she has been sat on the naughty step, she has gone without a pudding. No one is perfect. But if you show children manners, self respect, perseverence and encouragement they will show the same things in return.


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## Stephanie Logan (Jan 28, 2010)

alfiethetortoise said:


> But if you show children manners, self respect, perseverence and encouragement they will show the same things in return.



So true, Brooke, so true. We parents are not perfect, either, but must try to live by example as much as possible, because every person looks in the mirror one day and realizes, "My God, I have _become_ my mother (or father)!! This thought horrified me when I was 18, but now I'm very proud to be like my mom, and I've told her so many times.

Maggie, have you ever been interviewed by documentary makers? What a childhood that must have been, on Ground Zero of the cultural revolution. That decade was marked by idealism and a definable philosophy (anti-war, anti-establishment, anti-authoritarianism, pro-freedom, especially the freedom to have sex without fearing pregnancy (B.C. pill came out in 1962, I believe) freedom to have long hair and defy societal norms without being stereotyped as a criminal or a slacker, etc. Of course, there was an upside to each of these elements of cultural _evolution,_ as well as a downside. By the 70s, when I grew up, we were still doing the sex, drugs and rock-n-roll thing (it was one of our toasts in college  ), but on auto-pilot, there was no underlying meaning to any of it, and it was not good. I was lucky enough to have a healthy supply of brain cells, and always took personal pride in being a good student despite my self-destructive habits. By the time I graduated (early) from college, I was more than ready to leave all that trash behind as I happily drove out of Texas forever. (No offense to Texans, I was born in Midland but raised in Colorado till we have to move to San Antonio for my dad's geology job--I was in 8th grade so it was a tough time to move--I never had many friends as kids there already had their friends, and I never could adapt to the hot and humid climate--I went to UT-Austin for undergrad and loved that college/party/music town but was ready for cooler climes once I finished  ).

I think every generation tries to be better parents than the previous generation, and that's the way it should be.

Also, there's a famous historical passage of a senator whose teenage son is drving him nuts, cares only about his friends, neglects his studies, spends hours looking in the mirror to get his hair just right, doesn't respect his elders, etc....and it was a Roman senator from the century before Christ, so "the more things change, the more they stay the same!"


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## terryo (Jan 28, 2010)

OT
"Also, there's a famous historical passage of a senator whose teenage son is drving him nuts, cares only about his friends, neglects his studies, spends hours looking in the mirror to get his hair just right, doesn't respect his elders, etc....and it was a Roman senator from the century before Christ, so "the more things change, the more they stay the same!" 

I lopve how you always interject a little tid-bit of history into your posts.....and they are so interesting. If you ever decide to write a book, I will be on line to buy it.


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## Kadaan (Jan 28, 2010)

webskipper said:


> I'm worried about todays "children of the electronic age".
> 
> Kids or young adults, text rather than actually speak, they carry a game with them to keep the occupied, movies and tv are perceived as reality, pirating movies, girls have their own electronic friends, all this to avoid human interaction.
> 
> ...



A lot of that sounds more like parenting than morals. My parents took away my Nintendo for a school quarter when I was a kid if my grades were poor, and I had to raise them to get it back. Not just a day or week, the whole quarter! Swearing was not tolerated at all, we were allowed 1h of TV a night during the week, and 3 or 4 on Saturday morning. My girlfriend's daughter turns 6 this year, and she has very similar rules. She also doesn't let her daughter watch tv unless they watch it together.

The internet is also a great way to get extra human interaction, not just to avoid it. I was a VERY shy kid growing up. Being introduced to the internet in high school helped open me up. It gave me a way to talk to people without feeling as self conscious. Take this forum for example, how many of you would be able/willing to have a discussion on morals with a group of people in real life? Some of us, sure, but not nearly as many as have participated in this thread already! Besides, it's not like anti-social behavior didn't exist till the internet came out, it's just an easy thing to blame it on.

It's easy to look at the negative side of things, but for every negative there are many more positives!


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## chadk (Jan 28, 2010)

Saw this posted elsewhere I thought it was relavent to this thread...


************************


While some of the outcomes are conjecture, most are not. The following scenarios are based on real events. Too true to believe! 


HIGH SCHOOL -- 1960's vs. 2010 

Scenario 1: 
Jack goes quail hunting before school and then pulls into the school parking lot with his shotgun in his truck's gun rack. 
1960 - Vice Principal comes over, looks at Jack's shotgun, goes to his car and gets his shotgun to show Jack.. 
2010 - School goes into lock down, FBI called, Jack hauled off to jail and never sees his truck or gun again. Counselors called in for traumatized students and teachers. 

Scenario 2: 
Johnny and Mark get into a fist fight after school. 
1960 - Crowd gathers. Mark wins. Johnny and Mark shake hands and end up buddies. 
2010 - Police called and SWAT team arrives -- they arrest both Johnny and Mark. They are both charged with assault and both expelled even though Johnny started it. 


Scenario 3: 
Jeffrey will not be still in class, he disrupts other students... 
1960 - Jeffrey sent to the Principal's office and given a good paddling by the Principal. He then returns to class, sits still and does not disrupt class again.
2010 - Jeffrey is given huge doses of Ritalin. He becomes a zombie. He is then tested for ADD. The school gets extra money from the state because Jeffrey has a disability. 


Scenario 4: 
Billy breaks a window in his neighbor's car and his Dad gives him a whipping with his belt. 
1960 - Billy is more careful next time, grows up normal, goes to college and becomes a successful businessman. 
2010 - Billy's dad is arrested for child abuse. Billy is removed to foster care and joins a gang. The state psychologist is told by Billy's sister that she remembers being abused herself and their dad goes to prison. Billy's mom has an affair with the psychologist.. 


Scenario 5: 
Mark gets a headache and takes some aspirin to school. 
1960 - Mark shares his aspirin with the Principal out on the smoking dock. 
2010 - The police are called and Mark is expelled from school for drug violations. His car is then searched for drugs and weapons. 

Scenario 6: 
Pedro fails high school English. 
1960 - Pedro goes to summer school, passes English and goes to college. 
2010 - Pedro's cause is taken up by state. Newspaper articles appear nationally explaining that teaching English as a requirement for graduation is racist. ACLU files class action lawsuit against the state school system and Pedro's English teacher. English is then banned from core curriculum. Pedro is given his diploma anyway but ends up mowing lawns for a living because he cannot speak English. 

Scenario 7: 
Johnny takes apart leftover firecrackers from the Fourth of July, puts them in a model airplane paint bottle and blows up a red ant bed. 
1960 - Ants die. 
2010 - ATF, Homeland Security and the FBI are all called. Johnny is charged with domestic terrorism. The FBI investigates his parents -- and all siblings are removed from their home and all computers are confiscated. Johnny's dad is placed on a terror watch list and is never allowed to fly again. 


Scenario 8: 
Johnny falls while running during recess and scrapes his knee. He is found crying by his teacher, Mary. Mary hugs him to comfort him. 
1960 - In a short time, Johnny feels better and goes on playing... 
2010 - Mary is accused of being a sexual predator and loses her job. She faces 3 years in State Prison. Johnny undergoes 5 years of therapy.


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## terryo (Jan 28, 2010)

LOL OMG! It may be funny, but it's sad too....and so true!


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## Shelly (Jan 28, 2010)

chadk said:


> Scenario 4:
> Billy breaks a window in his neighbor's car and his Dad gives him a whipping with his belt.
> 1960 - Billy grows into a violent psychopath, and regularly beats his wife and children.



That's a little more realistic.


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## DoctorCosmonaut (Jan 28, 2010)

Its not hard to find a scenario based on something real, contradicting or confirming lol


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## terryo (Jan 28, 2010)

Shelly said:


> chadk said:
> 
> 
> > Scenario 4:
> ...



I "very personally" have to agree with you on that one.


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## ChiKat (Jan 28, 2010)

That is very sad and true! Interesting though, thanks for sharing!!



Shelly said:


> chadk said:
> 
> 
> > Scenario 4:
> ...


I agree with you. I don't like how abuse was viewed as the answer to problems


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## chadk (Jan 28, 2010)

Give me a break. Most guys I know, including my friends, myself, my dad, his dad, and so forth all recieved spankings from the belt, the paddle, switches, hand, etc etc and it was a GOOD thing. Sure, it can be taken too far, but so can any kind of discipline.... It is just one avaliable tool for a parent among many that in some circumstances, for some kids, really works.


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## DoctorCosmonaut (Jan 28, 2010)

But you can raise just as decent of kids without punishing them physically. The best example of how inappropriate this manner of punishment can be was when I was in a store and a kid hit his brother, so the mom started spanking her boy, saying "don't" *swat* "you" *swat* "know not to hit people" *swat*

I grew up being spanked with a wooden spoon... Didn't do a lick of good--no pun intended--my mom had to practically carry it with her everywhere. lol ...and I've seen so many children turn out perfectly without ever being physically punished for anything.


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## chadk (Jan 28, 2010)

How many kids have you raised? Are you a child psychologist? Just wondering where you are coming from...?

A spanking is not equal to a kid hitting a kid. That is absurd to compare the 2. When is is ever appropriate for a brother to use any form of discipline on a sibliing, peer, or grown up? A parent is the one who disciplines. 

And no, Billy punching Bobby in the nose is not the same as mom giving a few swats on the behind.


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## DoctorCosmonaut (Jan 28, 2010)

I have no children. I've taken lots of psychology classes and the popular opinion amongst psychologists seems to be against spanking and other such punishments. I have a large extended family and have seen the gambit in punishments (form kids who were never spanked to kids who had their mouths washed out and belts used on them) and have had my own experience with physical punishment from parents. I think that if you raise a child right you shouldn't have to hit them (its what I've seen). Just because something has been used for generations (such as spanking, etc in my family--until my sisters started having children), doesn't mean its the best or most effective thing. Society is constantly evolving, sometimes for the worse and sometimes for the better, but overall, I'd like to think for the better. IMO spanking is draconian. I'm not saying it doesn't work, I just think you can raise a kid (any kid) just as well without ever going there, and that's better.


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## ChiKat (Jan 28, 2010)

There is obviously a difference between being whipped with a belt (which was my problem with the examples given in your post) and a swat on the behind...although I do not agree with either!

I have not raised any children and I am not a child psychologist. But I do not believe in physical punishment as a method of discipline. I think there are better ways to get your message across.
Many of my relatives spanked their children and they turned out fine, it is just not a way I personally would want to discipline my kids.

eta:


DoctorCosmonaut said:


> I'm not saying it doesn't work, I just think you can raise a kid (any kid) just as well without ever going there, and that's better.


I agree.


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## DoctorCosmonaut (Jan 28, 2010)

And the kid didn't hit the other in the nose, and when mom turns around and hits you then says "don't hit your bother" it sends a mixed signal to someone that young.


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## Stephanie Logan (Jan 28, 2010)

Ugh. Why are there so many intense and complex threads on here tonight?

I have to say I spanked my kids, mostly before they were five, only rarely when time-outs and reasoning had not worked (and at the time I had read every Parents magazine cover to cover every month--they always, unequivocally, opposed physical punishment but held the somewhat laughable view that one can reason with a two-year-old having a tantrum). 

I think parents have to be very careful to not cross the line into beatings and abuse, but I have to agree with Chad that in some ways our societal pendulum has swung too far to the left. There are kids in the schools I teach that are disruptive and have no respect for other students' right to learn, that I think would straighten out quickly if there was a three-strikes-and-you-get-paddled-by-the-principal policy. It could be done under measured and controlled circumstances, with waivers signed by parents, who could opt out but then risk the alternative punishment of having Billy sent home from school if he is repeatedly disruptive in class. I truly believe, based on my own upbringing and my experience in the classroom, that the mere threat of a spanking will deter most children from pushing the envelope too far. 

Once my kids had been spanked a few times, they knew I meant what I said and pretty much stayed in line (the biggest threat, that would literally stop them in their tracks, was "I will tell Dad about this when he gets home"--again, not that Fred ever spanked any of them more than 5 times in their lives, but the very thought of it made them change their ways fast!) 

And let me reiterate the importance of the most effective child-rearing strategy: PRAISE them when they do the RIGHT thing, reward them sometimes for exhibiting good behaviors, and you will be amazed at how hard they will try to impress you again. I use this all the time when I teach, and I hold the bar pretty high, too, and teachers tell me that their students cheer when they're told Mrs. Logan is coming to sub. So I know it works!


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## chadk (Jan 28, 2010)

No it doesn't. My kids understand clearly. So did I when I was a kid. 

See the OP. Note the cringing many take just for basic discipline of children. Put 2 and 2 together and you'll see a pattern... Kids who don't have any respect and so forth...


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## DoctorCosmonaut (Jan 28, 2010)

You don't need to spank someone, even a child, to earn their respect. If "spare the rod spoil the child" how do you explain the tons of children who turn out better than the kids who are spanked? Parenting methods are so much more than spanking, and they should be.


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## ChiKat (Jan 28, 2010)

Stephanie Logan said:


> (the biggest threat, that would literally stop them in their tracks, was "I will tell Dad about this when he gets home"--again, not that Fred ever spanked any of them more than 5 times in their lives, but the very thought of it made them change their ways fast!)



haha that was the biggest threat for us too!! I remember my brother and I goofing off when I was little, and my mom threatening that my dad would be home soon  Once he walked through the door we were angels  (my poor mother!)
He never actually spanked us, but he was still intimidating 




Stephanie Logan said:


> And let me reiterate the importance of the most effective child-rearing strategy: PRAISE them when they do the RIGHT thing, reward them sometimes for exhibiting good behaviors, and you will be amazed at how hard they will try to impress you again.



So true!! I need to remember this with my kindergarteners...there is a group of boys in the afternoon that I need to remember to praise more often. Most of my interaction with them is saying "if you are not going to be a good listener you may go back to your seat!" 



chadk said:


> Note the cringing many take just for basic discipline of children.



While I might not believe in physical discipline I am still a very strict teacher and I imagine I will be a strict parent as well.


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## DoctorCosmonaut (Jan 28, 2010)

PS Your kids may have needed only a few spanks, but I needed one everyday practically and still rebelled, and my parents raised me just the same as they did my other siblings and we all turned out way different.


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## Stephanie Logan (Jan 28, 2010)

DoctorCosmonaut said:


> You don't need to spank someone, even a child, to earn their respect. If "spare the rod spoil the child" how do you explain the tons of children who turn out better than the kids who are spanked? Parenting methods are so much more than spanking, and they should be.



I think the most recent study showed kids that were spanked turned out to be less likely to engage in violence or anti-social behavior. I'll try to google that tomorrow. 

Certainly you can raise good kids without spanking. I just don't think it's always bad, either.


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## terryo (Jan 28, 2010)

I'm not judging anyone here, as everyone has their own way of raising their children. I raised 5 sons, and never...never...used my hands on any of them. Never had to spank and never believed in it. If someone did something that was unacceptable, we sat down and talked about it and discussed ways to change things. 
Maybe things were different then, but everyone had their jobs to do around the house, and everyone helped in the kitchen. They all love to cook now and can do a better job than I can. We all cooked supper together..one made the salad, one chopped the veggies...then we all had a production line doing the dishes. We laughed and told stories of our day while we ate, and played music while we did our dishes. After supper we all sat in the living room and told stories...I would start with a few words like....there was a girl...and then they would have to make up the rest of the story. We had one little TV and each night one kid got to pick something to watch. Two had paper routes after school and two of them walked dogs for the neighbors. The two older boys had to help the smaller ones with their homework. They were very protective of each other.....they still are. 
We did a lot of hiking and camping together. Sometimes I would put up tents in the back yard and we would all sleep in them. 
When they were young, they were deprived of material things, as we had no money then, and they had to work for anything they wanted. I think these things made them the men they are today. In a way I'm glad we had no money then, because it built character, to have to earn everything, and made them appreciate the things they got. I was very appreciative of the fact that when they were teenagers, they always included me in their life. When I was sad or depressed they would come in with all their friends and make me go to the movies with them. They all live close by today, in the same neighborhood, and we still are a very close family. Maybe the problem today is that people don't do enough with their kids or let them help make family decisions....I don't know....
Well now I'm really depressed................ where did all the years go............


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## DoctorCosmonaut (Jan 28, 2010)

Yall should check out this really good 2008 newsweek article about how "Spanking may lead to aggression and sexual problems later in life" studies shohow http://www.newsweek.com/id/116788 ...

Maybe this thread should be split into a new one?


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## DoctorCosmonaut (Jan 28, 2010)

Sorry Yvonne, this whole spanking thing is way off topic... lets all stop this spanking thing...


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## Stephanie Logan (Jan 29, 2010)

http://www.nydailynews.com/lifestyl...akes_kids_perform_better_in_school_study.html

OK, I promise this is my last post about spanking, though I disagree with Jordan that this subject is unrelated to the original post. I think morals are very much related to respect, and respect is either increased or decreased (or has no effect ) by spanking as an influence upon children's development of respect for authority. My position is that rare spankings are not detrimental and can be helpful in setting the boundaries for behavior that all children crave.

Clearly, Jordan, being paddled with a wooden spoon every day was NOT effective to curb your behaviors, and your mom should have switched (oh, good pun!) to something else when it was clear the spoon did not influence you to change your behaviors. 

The study above was widely panned by child psychology experts, who are virtually unanimous in their opinion that spanking is always bad, and just teaches children that it's OK to hit smaller people if you are bigger. I have always thought that is the most simplistic, convenient take on a rather complex subject, so I ignored it as I was busy raising my own very excellent kids. One critical feature of this study is that it's divided into spanking before age six, and spanking after age six. I would agree that after age six (or so), spanking becomes more of a power struggle and if your kid is still engaging in behaviors that merit spanking once he is in school, other things are going on and it may be time for some family counseling. 

I don't object to the concept of raising children without spanking if it's possible and if you choose to. What I do differ with is this totally unproven "wisdom" that people who spank are sociopaths and sadists whose kids will grow up with their spirits broken and become violent criminals. That simply isn't true. Think of every generation of kids before Dr. Spock (1950s). All of the nation's leaders, presidents, inventors, scholars, etc. Read the Little House books by Laura Ingalls Wilder. If you didn't know your lessons in school, the teacher beat your palm with a ruler till it was black and blue, and when you went home, your mom or dad said, "If the teacher has to beat you again, I will give you a worse beating when you get home!" And we had MUCH lower rates of violent crime, and more respect for authority, if our nation's history is any indication.

Dr. Spock came around, and then the 60's, and suddenly it was all about freedom, and letting your kids "explore" and build their own characters without "square" parents restricting the little darlings from "finding themselves". Surely you see where I'm going here. Extremes=Bad, Moderation and Common Sense=Good. 

Got to run and teach literacy (my favorite), so must pack up my stickers bag so I have plenty of goodies for the kids!


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## TylerStewart (Jan 29, 2010)

chadk said:


> Johnny takes apart leftover firecrackers from the Fourth of July, puts them in a model airplane paint bottle and blows up a red ant bed.
> 1960 - Ants die.
> 2010 - ATF, Homeland Security and the FBI are all called. Johnny is charged with domestic terrorism. The FBI investigates his parents -- and all siblings are removed from their home and all computers are confiscated. Johnny's dad is placed on a terror watch list and is never allowed to fly again.



I just noticed this thread.... 

Another scenario to think about:
1980s - Kid gets caught with a condom in his wallet at school. School takes it away, and the kid begs the principal not to tell his parents. 
2010 - School gives condoms to kids, and begs the kids not to tell their parents. 

Of course spankings work.... There are plenty of people out there that think things can be done differently because "poor Timmy doesn't need his butt swatted," but come on..... It's not realistic, and it leads kids to not be respectful to their own parents. Spankings worked on me and they work on my kid (currently 7 years old) like a champ. It's not like a beat him or punch him in the face. Sure I can (and have) stood him in a corner for an hour to think about what he's done, but believe me, a imminent spanking threat is a much bigger deterrent. It's like a video camera versus a big guard dog when a criminal is thinking about breaking into a house or jumping over that wall. With the camera, you might get caught or might not, but with the dog, you know immediately it's going to hurt if you make that decision. In one situation the house gets robbed and in the other situation it doesn't.


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## chadk (Jan 29, 2010)

Having been raised in a big family, having worked with kids over the years in various settings, and now having my own kids ranging from ages 16 to 2, I have lots of experience on disciplining kids in various ways. I will also note that my wife is a 'retired' (chose to retire at a young age to focus on raising the kids) social worker with a degree in child psychology.

Here is the bottom line in my experience. Kids and parents are all different. So there is not a one size fits all approach. Some families never spank. And in some of those, the outcome is awesome. In others of those, the kids are out of control and the family suffers. Same is true for families that do choose to use spanking as one of the forms of discipline.

With my own kids, each one responds differntly to different forms of discipline. For some of them, a stern look or a raised eyebrow can get the point accross. For some, a swat on the bottom is very effective. For one particulary stubborn boy, the swat is nothing to him and it has very little effect. So for each child, we have to be aware of what works and doesn't work. That is part of the challenge of parenting. You can read a book or an article or talk to a friend or your own parent for advice, but in the end, your kids are unique. And you as a parent are unique. Not all parents are as effective at certain types of discipline.

No matter what approach though, a huge factor is raising your kids in a loving way. A child raised who is spanked for every little thing and not shown love is a recipe for rebellion and worse later. Same for a child who is emotionally abused and not shown any love. Or a child that is just left to run wild with no boundaries or expectactions and no loving correction. It is hard work being a balanced loving and nurturing parent who is also able to set realistic boundaries, correct and discipline, and so forth...


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## terryo (Jan 29, 2010)

Nice post Chad! You are right. Each child is different and needs a different approach. Also I think times, family situations, financial stability....everything comes into play here.


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## Stephanie Logan (Jan 29, 2010)

And I forgot to say to terryo that her earlier post about how her family scraped by and came through hard times was very moving and sounded like a movie script! 

Your boys were very lucky and it's especially sweet that they realized even when they were teenagers that you were doing the best you could with what you had, and showed their appreciation for your hard work. 

Feeling nostalgic for the past means you have good memories, and the fact that your kids share those memories means you are a great mom. Soak it up, girl!


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## chadk (Jan 29, 2010)

+1, I agree with Stephanie... again


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## Maggie Cummings (Jan 29, 2010)

I raised 2 boys and spanked them. I actually used a leather belt with a Harley Davidson buckle and wasn't very careful which end I used. They both grew up to be really nice men. Were I to do it over I don't think I would spank with anything but my hand. I think Dr Spock really did change the way of raising kids for the worse.

I just want to say that I have had several dealings with DoctorCosmonaut and I think he and his girlfriend are the cream of their generation. They are really nice kids and have kind of changed my way of looking at their generation. They go to school and dress nicely and take showers and help old ladies. I am kinda making a joke here, but I really do think Jordan is a great kid and I am very glad to know him and very proud of the way he lives and acts.


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## DoctorCosmonaut (Jan 29, 2010)

Awww thanks Maggie! You are such a sweetheart!  Anytime you need anything just call! I always enjoy seeing your pets and getting to chat with you.


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## Stephanie Logan (Jan 29, 2010)

People become more aware of and adherent to morals as they age. Having children refocuses one's priorities so that ethics and role modeling become eminent.

Agreed? 

Jordan, does Bob respect or just tolerate you? Has Maggie been teaching him good manners?


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## DoctorCosmonaut (Jan 29, 2010)

Bob's always acted well around me (Maggie must have spanked him a few times  ), although he did decorate once before I came over and saw him (decided to mess his room all up). lol


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## Maggie Cummings (Jan 30, 2010)

DoctorCosmonaut said:


> Awww thanks Maggie! You are such a sweetheart!  Anytime you need anything just call! I always enjoy seeing your pets and getting to chat with you.



That's exactly why I was buttering you up. I want some building help!...

One more thing about spanking. My parents had "the red stick". It was a flat stick maybe 3 inches across and heavy and just the right length to get a good swing. They said it was painted red so it wouldn't show the blood. ha ha, It hurt so bad, it made me pee when one of my parents reached for it from on top of the refrigerator. I actually can only remember being hit with it a couple of times. But the fear of it made me much better at hiding my 'badness'. It didn't make me any better. But after I was about 10 I can remember my mother swinging one of her crutches like a baseball bat and hitting both my brother and I with it. It was one of those metal crutches, my mother had polio and limped and had to walk with those crutches. My nightmares to this day have the sound of those crutches in them ugh! clink... scrape... clink... scrape... (her leg dragged)

I couldn't sleep so I thought I'd peruse the forum, but I am giving myself nightmares.


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## Yvonne G (Jan 30, 2010)

OMG, Maggie! Did you have to bring me back those memories?


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## Stephanie Logan (Jan 30, 2010)

Polio was a scourge that crippled and killed so many; my mom remembers hearing about the vaccine in 1955 when she was pregnant with her first child, and she was SO grateful that her kids wouldn't be vulnerable to that terrible disease.

Fred's dad lost his lower leg to a land mine in WWII, and growing up Fred and his 5 brothers had one big bedroom over the garage (3 sets of bunk beds). When they were up past bed time having pillow fights or peeing out their window, they'd hear their dad coming up the stairs: "Step, drag, step, drag, step, drag..." his slow pace would give them about one minute to get everything under a bed and themselves inside "asleep"...


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## terryo (Jan 30, 2010)

I guess like in every debate there are pro's and cons to every subject. 
My sister took a very different approach to parenting. When they were bad they got spanked, when they were older they got punished ...a lot...No spanking or punishing in my house...discussions. In her house if anyone didn't go to church, they didn't get any Sunday dinner. In our house no one ever said they didn't want to go to church ...we just went together. When they worked...paper route, dog walking..etc. they had to hand over their money...no questions asked. I let mine keep theirs to save for things they wanted. When friends came over they had to stay downstairs, and go home at a certain hour. Everyone slept over my house on weekends. Everyone sat in their rooms to do homework alone so there would be no distractions. Mine all sat down to do homework together and helped each other. Each night a kid took turns doing the dishes. He stayed in there all alone and washed, dried and put away. We had out production line. Very different from my house. I tried very hard to make everything fun, so it wouldn't be considered a misery. 
Three of my kids still go to church. (one always says he is too busy...but I am working on him...) Every day I get phone calls from one of their friends asking if I need anything. My kids all live around me and I see them every day.
My poor sister is always alone, and they come twice a year on holidays..no one goes to church any more...the list goes on and on. 
We would argue that I was too lenient, and I would say she was too strict. I don't know who was right or wrong, but I kind of like how my life turned out, more so than hers. 
I'm not saying everything was peachy...not by a long shot. Remember they were boys. I could write a book with the craziness that went on. (my grandchildren always tell me I should....they love hearing "bad stories" about their fathers. 
I do see a different set of morals in my grandchildren...very different. The girls have boyfriends at 14, the clothes they wear are eye-popping. They don't go to church with their parents like mine did. Sometimes I see them there with a gang of friends...but at least they go, I guess. I guess it is a whole different generation. We just can't expect the morals of today's generation to be the same as yesterdays generation.


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## ChiKat (Jan 30, 2010)

Terry you have such wonderful memories from raising your children. I hope that some day when I have my own family we have the amount of love and warmth that your family had!


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## terryo (Jan 30, 2010)

Thank you Katie. I do have wonderful and some funny memories...some bad one's too, but I wouldn't trade any of them. I'm sure you'll have them too one day, but don't rush things....time goes too fast as it is.


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## dmmj (Jan 30, 2010)

well it used to be legal to beat your wife, that is where they phrase "rule of thumb" comes from. you could only beat your wife with a stick that was no wider than your thumb, now I am not encouraging this or approving of it, just passing along some info. In my own experience kids who are spanked not beaten usually turn out better, that is not always the case but just my general experience.Of copurse I am teh exception to the rule I was never spanked but I think I turned out pretty darn well myself, and I remember the stories of my dad how his dad used to beat him, and the stories of my grandpa who used to tell us stories of how his dad used to hit him with a horse whip.


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## DoctorCosmonaut (Jan 30, 2010)

I think that by treating children like they are big enough to discuss things like an adult works pretty well, the other alternative just seems to burn people and seems to give the mental capabilities of children/adolescents too little credit... seen it happen too many times with people i know. Or if you look at it from the perspectives of physics, *"To every action there is an equal and opposite reaction"* -Newtons Third Law. I know that a lot of you are going to chime in and say that you never had an equally opposing force, but I've seen it with friends and family and myself (and like Maggie was saying, you get spanked enough or scared enough and you learn how to hide things, not stop doing them... you lose the communication and openness that you should have with your children)... Plus what kid ever talked about their feelings and actions (discussion) too much in return?" 

I think spanking/whipping tends to be a tradition... and I'm gonna break it with my kids... I'll report to you how that all works out in a few years


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## chadk (Jan 30, 2010)

DoctorCosmonaut said:


> I think that by treating children like they are big enough to discuss things like an adult works pretty well, the other alternative just seems to burn people and seems to give the mental capabilities of children/adolescents too little credit... seen it happen too many times with people i know. Or if you look at it from the perspectives of physics, *"To every action there is an equal and opposite reaction"* -Newtons Third Law. I know that a lot of you are going to chime in and say that you never had an equally opposing force, but I've seen it with friends and family and myself (and like Maggie was saying, you get spanked enough or scared enough and you learn how to hide things, not stop doing them... you lose the communication and openness that you should have with your children)... Plus what kid ever talked about their feelings and actions (discussion) too much in return?"
> 
> I think spanking/whipping tends to be a tradition... and I'm gonna break it with my kids... I'll report to you how that all works out in a few years





Like I said, it is a balancing act. Openess and good communication and unconditional love go a long way. And that is balanced with boundaries and correction and discipline.

The problem I have is with those who throw out absolute statements about right and wrong parenting approaches. Those who would outlaw spankings in any form. Those who would have CPS take kids away from a parent who gives their child a spanking at home or anywhere else for that matter. If you don't want to use it as one of your parenting tools, then simply don't. Leave it at that. There are already laws against child abuse and enough kids in foster care for real reasons. Anytime the gov't steps in to tell me how to raise my kids.... well, there is Newton's Third Law again...

Treating kids like grown ups is fine in many circumstances. As long as you don't lose sight of the fact that they are NOT grown ups yet and you have a big job as a parent to raise them into maturity.


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## DoctorCosmonaut (Jan 31, 2010)

chadk said:


> DoctorCosmonaut said:
> 
> 
> > I think that by treating children like they are big enough to discuss things like an adult works pretty well, the other alternative just seems to burn people and seems to give the mental capabilities of children/adolescents too little credit... seen it happen too many times with people i know. Or if you look at it from the perspectives of physics, *"To every action there is an equal and opposite reaction"* -Newtons Third Law. I know that a lot of you are going to chime in and say that you never had an equally opposing force, but I've seen it with friends and family and myself (and like Maggie was saying, you get spanked enough or scared enough and you learn how to hide things, not stop doing them... you lose the communication and openness that you should have with your children)... Plus what kid ever talked about their feelings and actions (discussion) too much in return?"
> ...





I never said anything about changing laws or making anything illegal, I'm simply saying I think it is a better approach, not the only approach, and I'm not saying that its the approach everyone should take.


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## chadk (Jan 31, 2010)

fair enough


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