What To Do About Pics Of Inappropriate Tortoise Practices?

wellington

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Seriously, it's true.

After being around him, I can't wrap my brain around people's accusations that's he's a prideful know it all.
He's not.

I don't like typed discussions for this very reason. You can't interpret tone or body language.

I so agree. I don't get it either. He is so easy to talk to. I could have talked for hours when he visited. The help he gives, he will go way out of his way to help. I just don't get it and never will. I think some members make him sound intimidating and that's why others think so. It's funny, most that say these things about him, usually doesn't offer much help to members.
 

Alaskamike

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I so agree. I don't get it either. He is so easy to talk to. I could have talked for hours when he visited. The help he gives, he will go way out of his way to help. I just don't get it and never will. I think some members make him sound intimidating and that's why others think so. It's funny, most that say these things about him, usually doesn't offer much help to members.
I don't know Tom but I am sure you are right.

But I beg to differ here on the value of critique - of Tom or anyone.

Discussions like this are almost always among the more active and mature members with a motivation to improve our ( and I say " our" in the broadest sense ) Tortoise Forum.

It is precisely because Tom offers so much help that occasionally he gets maligned. ( and he's not the only one) If he - or any of the other very active members were quiet - it would never come up.

If you do little or nothing - there will never be any controversy or criticism. But if you put yourself on the front lines , expect some fireworks once in awhile.

'No good deed goes unpunished '
An old adage says - Too true.

This discussion is in some ways about risk / reward. If suggestions are given , critique made , we risk offense. If they are not made , and made with some conviction - a tortoise suffers , as well as the owner when they get sick or die.

I believe everyone who tries to help does so with success in mind : success for the owner & success for the tortoise.

Discussions like this help me. When I offer my take on things , I know I'll try and avoid coming across as a **** head. Not always easy for sure. Not even always my nature.
But I'll try.
 

wellington

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I don't know Tom but I am sure you are right.

But I beg to differ here on the value of critique - of Tom or anyone.

Discussions like this are almost always among the more active and mature members with a motivation to improve our ( and I say " our" in the broadest sense ) Tortoise Forum.

It is precisely because Tom offers so much help that occasionally he gets maligned. ( and he's not the only one) If he - or any of the other very active members were quiet - it would never come up.

If you do little or nothing - there will never be any controversy or criticism. But if you put yourself on the front lines , expect some fireworks once in awhile.

'No good deed goes unpunished '
An old adage says - Too true.

This discussion is in some ways about risk / reward. If suggestions are given , critique made , we risk offense. If they are not made , and made with some conviction - a tortoise suffers , as well as the owner when they get sick or die.

I believe everyone who tries to help does so with success in mind : success for the owner & success for the tortoise.

Discussions like this help me. When I offer my take on things , I know I'll try and avoid coming across as a **** head. Not always easy for sure. Not even always my nature.
But I'll try.
You possibly misunderstood. I totally agree with what you said. My point, over the years I have been here, a few have argued with or about Tom or his thread/post contributions, or how he comes across, yet they don't really offer much input on the forum for helping others.
I'm all for new ideas of doing things. I too love to learn all there is when it comes to the animals I have. But if your going to try and discredit someone with other ways of doing things, or making one sound "almighty" then share the details and proof like Tom has. Maybe get to really know him and understand his passion. Don't just try to discredit by name calling or disagreeing Since I joined in 2011, I don't remember a member trying as hard to improve the life of tortoises and sharing everything they know or do.
 

Tom

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I don't know Tom but I am sure you are right.

But I beg to differ here on the value of critique - of Tom or anyone.

Discussions like this are almost always among the more active and mature members with a motivation to improve our ( and I say " our" in the broadest sense ) Tortoise Forum.

It is precisely because Tom offers so much help that occasionally he gets maligned. ( and he's not the only one) If he - or any of the other very active members were quiet - it would never come up.

If you do little or nothing - there will never be any controversy or criticism. But if you put yourself on the front lines , expect some fireworks once in awhile.

'No good deed goes unpunished '
An old adage says - Too true.

This discussion is in some ways about risk / reward. If suggestions are given , critique made , we risk offense. If they are not made , and made with some conviction - a tortoise suffers , as well as the owner when they get sick or die.

I believe everyone who tries to help does so with success in mind : success for the owner & success for the tortoise.

Discussions like this help me. When I offer my take on things , I know I'll try and avoid coming across as a **** head. Not always easy for sure. Not even always my nature.
But I'll try.

Summed up: If you wanna make an omelet, you are gonna have to break some eggs. :)
 

Tom

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You possibly misunderstood. I totally agree with what you said. My point, over the years I have been here, a few have argued with or about Tom or his thread/post contributions, or how he comes across, yet they don't really offer much input on the forum for helping others.
I'm all for new ideas of doing things. I too love to learn all there is when it comes to the animals I have. But if your going to try and discredit someone with other ways of doing things, or making one sound "almighty" then share the details and proof like Tom has. Maybe get to really know him and understand his passion. Don't just try to discredit by name calling or disagreeing Since I joined in 2011, I don't remember a member trying as hard to improve the life of tortoises and sharing everything they know or do.

I get exactly what you are saying. My biggest detractors over the years have contributed almost nothing to this forum or to helping others. Their activity on this forum centers on discrediting me or others who exhibit any sense of agreeing with what I have said because it worked for them.

Its crazy isn't it? I say what I say because of open experiments done in full public view where everyone can see the results, good or bad. My detractors come on and make all sorts of wild assertions with NOTHING to back them up. When asked to back them up with pics and evidence, they begin attacking my character, the character of anyone who agrees with me based on their own experience with the subject matter, or they leave, or they talk about their speculations of what happens in the wild, or they start calling me names and leveling all sorts of accusations about my personality and "god" complexes, all the while trying to ignore the large and obvious facts that I have placed right in front of their face.
 

mike taylor

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Well Tom all I can say is you must sleep good knowing you tried to help as many keepers as you could . I know I've tried your keeping methods and they have worked great . For the nay sayers you should give it a try . I personally wouldn't try to fight about it anymore because it's the same few nah sayers every time . Say what works for you add your pictures to provide proof . If new members go with you they will have a pet tort for a long long time .If they go with the nay sayers information in a month or so they should see its not going to work and try a new method . It's to bad someone who is trying to help gets so much flack . You have a lot of people who back what you do . Keep doing it brother .
 

AnimalLady

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Ok, so, I want to make this clear, just in case I was misunderstood~

My comment was not to accuse Tom of being a dhead, all i said was certain responses sound dheaded. There is a difference. Like others have mentioned, its hard to grasp the true intent *sometimes* on the computer. I was speaking more regarding people who come here for advice and then carry on. These people dont stick around and get to know a person, some of them dont spend time on here to see post after post of the person who they think gave them a nasty response. They dont see the bigger picture, they only saw the response they got and thats it.

I do not think he is mean, i do not think he is a dhead, i dont think anything negatively about him what so ever. I personally have asked him for advice, and he has taken the time out of his day to write me a very detailed and informative response (which I honestly appreciate more than ya'll know!). I take his advice, i truly do, because his passion shows in his response. I have been here ohhhh a month or so? So i have read countless replies from him. I understand he isnt a d! I also understand his responses are written with the absolute best interest of the animal in question. I get this, but I get this because i have read more than one of his responses, hell more than 10 of them! I see his motive, and its not to sound almighty. I actually asked Tom a question yesterday, and it was "Do you consider yourself an expert?" Go read his response, he doesnt sound like a too good know it all at all. So, thats further proof that I do not think he's a d!

It was also mentioned that some members make him sound intimidating and other members just go with that, not the case here. I'm not that type of person, i come to my own conclusions.

I wrote what I said because i meant it, some responses come off like WHOA, but i really dont think its an issue that should be addressed..sometimes on forums responses will come off sounding like that no matter what! People dont like to be told theyre wrong, its human nature.. depending on the individual the reaction differs. You cant please everyone, and thats just the nature of the beast! I didnt write my response to start crap or to **** off anyone. Some of the responses after my comment give me the feeling that theres drama here in between members, bigger than what i said, and have nothing to do with me.... but i guess i feel bad since my comment sparked a little crap poof.
I'm sorry if I pissed anyone off, it really wasnt my intent.
I'll be sure to keep my mouth shut in regards to posts like this.
 
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Tom

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Ok, so, I want to make this clear, just in case I was misunderstood~

My comment was not to accuse Tom of being a dhead, all i said was certain responses sound dhead. There is a difference. Like others have mentioned, its hard to grasp the true intent *sometimes* on the computer. I was speaking more regarding people who come here for advice and then carry on. These people dont stick around and get to know a person, some of them dont spend time on here to see post after post of the person who they think gave them a nasty response. They dont see the bigger picture, they only saw the response they got and thats it.

I do not think he is mean, i do not think he is a dhead, i dont think anything negatively about him what so ever. I personally have asked him for advice, and he has taken the time out of his day to write me a very detailed and informative response (which I honestly appreciate more than ya'll know!). I take his advice, i truly do, because his passion shows in his response. I have been here ohhhh a month or so? So i have read countless replies from him. I understand he isnt a d! I also understand his responses are written with the absolute best interest of the animal in question. I get this, but I get this because i have read more than one of his responses, hell more than 10 of them! I see his motive, and its not to sound almighty. I actually asked Tom a question yesterday, and it was "Do you consider yourself an expert?" Go read his response, he doesnt sound like a too good know it all at all. So, thats further proof that I do not think he's a d!

It was also mentioned that some members make him sound intimidating and other members just go with that, not the case here. I'm not that type of person, i come to my own conclusions.

I wrote what I said because i meant it, some responses come off like WHOA, but i really dont think its an issue that should be addressed..sometimes on forums responses will come off sounding like that no matter what! People dont like to be told theyre wrong, its human nature.. depending on the individual the reaction differs. You cant please everyone, and thats just the nature of the beast! I didnt write my response to start crap or to **** off anyone. Some of the responses after my comment give me the feeling that theres drama here in between members, bigger than what i said, and have nothing to do with me.... but i guess i feel bad since my comment sparked a little crap poof.
I'm sorry if I p-ed anyone off, it really wasnt my intent.
I'll be sure to keep my mouth shut in regards to posts like this.


Oh Stop it. No one is at all upset with you! We are just conversing. You are already part of the group and we like you and you don't need to explain stuff like this.

Like Mike has been explaining, candid discussion and people sharing their opinions in a constructive way, like what you did, is a good thing. You shared your thoughts on the post you saw, and I'd like to learn from it, or at least explain it, if we knew which one it was. Sometimes I am intentionally a little saucy when I feel it is justified, so your observation is probably spot on. Don't retreat. Stand your ground. Your comment was relevant, helpful and probably accurate. Others are just sharing their thoughts too. Its ALL good. I don't want you to feel like you need to censor yourself when talking with all of us. Speak freely. Let your personality come out. This is an open discussion in the debatable section and I, the original poster, welcomed all discussion and opinions. I thank you for boldly sharing yours. Don't hesitate to do it again, even if you think someone might disagree or get their feathers ruffled.
 
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AnimalLady

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Oh Stop it. No one is at all upset with you! We are just conversing. You are already part of the group and we like you and you don't need to explain stuff like this.

Like Mike has been explaining, candid discussion and people sharing their opinions in a constructive way, like what you did, is a good thing. You shared your thoughts on the post you saw, and I'd like to learn from it, or at least explain it, if we knew which one it was. Sometimes I am intentionally a little saucy when I feel it is justified, so your observation is probably spot on. Don't retreat. Stand your ground. Your comment was relevant, helpful and probably accurate. Others are just sharing their thoughts too. Its ALL good. I don't want you to feel like you need to censor yourself when talking with all of us. Speak freely. Let your personality come out. This is an open discussion in the debatable section and I, the original poster, welcomed all discussion and opinions. I thank you for boldly sharing yours. Don't hesitate to do it again, even if you think someone might disagree or get their feathers ruffled.

:<3::<3::<3:

Thank you! I was on shut down mode, lol :)
 

Prairie Mom

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So I missed this bit, apparently. Why (moderators) would these posts be deleted? Yes, there is disagreement but it is on the debatable section. What is more relevant to the sharing of knowledge than determining how someone came by that knowledge?
When I showed up with some (minor) differences of opinion, Wellington (a moderator, I gather) wasted no time in asking me. This was an appropriate response then and to this new member at least, appropriate now.
I don't think it completely discounts someone's opinion if it based on other species, but it does pay to weigh accordingly.
Someone, somewhere in this thread said there are no experts or something to that effect. That may or may not be true but I'd vote for firsthand experience being the nearest approximation.
Because they were sniping back and forth at each other and not adding anything constructive to the thread.
Dear Yvonne , To me " sniping " is more like ...
" you're a poopy head "
" no you are!" .

(Yvonne, Steve, & Mike please excuse the reply, I only quote you to give reference to my post)
(Also, Tom, you and I spoke about this subject recently. I'm really impressed with the way you've handled this thread)
---------------
I'm catching up on this interesting discussion. I'm just throwing out my opinion in regards to moderating posts, because it differs from a few of you and I want all opinions to be represented. I feel there are good points on both sides. -However-, I am one, that has come to appreciate moderator intervention, and there have been times that I wish it happened a bit more often. I appreciated the caution for posters to reign it in, because a trend that I am seeing throughout the forum is that people obviously know that they can be kicked off for "being blatantly rude and/or insulting," and rather than speaking more respectfully, they are sadly working on ways to just lay out insults in a slightly more indirect way.

I'm also not a fan of the abbreviated swearing. It's pointless. I still READ the swearing in my head. In fact, I think the little stars etc draw more attention to the swear word and this is supposed a Family Friendly site. I, personally, am more inclined to wear pie on my face rather than a halo on my head, but come on!...we have some young members that poke around this site. I also regularly have my own children (who are becoming excellent readers!) constantly looking over my shoulders as I read threads because they want to see the cute tortoise pictures in all of your avatars.

I know censorship is a tricky discussion and that is basically what we are talking about here, no one wants to feel they are on the receiving end of that nasty word, but I personally look to our moderators to set the tone on this forum.
 

wellington

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Ok, so, I want to make this clear, just in case I was misunderstood~

My comment was not to accuse Tom of being a dhead, all i said was certain responses sound dheaded. There is a difference. Like others have mentioned, its hard to grasp the true intent *sometimes* on the computer. I was speaking more regarding people who come here for advice and then carry on. These people dont stick around and get to know a person, some of them dont spend time on here to see post after post of the person who they think gave them a nasty response. They dont see the bigger picture, they only saw the response they got and thats it.

I do not think he is mean, i do not think he is a dhead, i dont think anything negatively about him what so ever. I personally have asked him for advice, and he has taken the time out of his day to write me a very detailed and informative response (which I honestly appreciate more than ya'll know!). I take his advice, i truly do, because his passion shows in his response. I have been here ohhhh a month or so? So i have read countless replies from him. I understand he isnt a d! I also understand his responses are written with the absolute best interest of the animal in question. I get this, but I get this because i have read more than one of his responses, hell more than 10 of them! I see his motive, and its not to sound almighty. I actually asked Tom a question yesterday, and it was "Do you consider yourself an expert?" Go read his response, he doesnt sound like a too good know it all at all. So, thats further proof that I do not think he's a d!

It was also mentioned that some members make him sound intimidating and other members just go with that, not the case here. I'm not that type of person, i come to my own conclusions.

I wrote what I said because i meant it, some responses come off like WHOA, but i really dont think its an issue that should be addressed..sometimes on forums responses will come off sounding like that no matter what! People dont like to be told theyre wrong, its human nature.. depending on the individual the reaction differs. You cant please everyone, and thats just the nature of the beast! I didnt write my response to start crap or to **** off anyone. Some of the responses after my comment give me the feeling that theres drama here in between members, bigger than what i said, and have nothing to do with me.... but i guess i feel bad since my comment sparked a little crap poof.
I'm sorry if I p-ed anyone off, it really wasnt my intent.
I'll be sure to keep my mouth shut in regards to posts like this.

Your too funny. I wasn't talking about you. Sorry if you thought that.
 
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wellington

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(Yvonne, Steve, & Mike please excuse the reply, I only quote you to give reference to my post)
(Also, Tom, you and I spoke about this subject recently. I'm really impressed with the way you've handled this thread)
---------------
I'm catching up on this interesting discussion. I'm just throwing out my opinion in regards to moderating posts, because it differs from a few of you and I want all opinions to be represented. I feel there are good points on both sides. -However-, I am one, that has come to appreciate moderator intervention, and there have been times that I wish it happened a bit more often. I appreciated the caution for posters to reign it in, because a trend that I am seeing throughout the forum is that people obviously know that they can be kicked off for "being blatantly rude and/or insulting," and rather than speaking more respectfully, they are sadly working on ways to just lay out insults in a slightly more indirect way.

I'm also not a fan of the abbreviated swearing. It's pointless. I still READ the swearing in my head. In fact, I think the little stars etc draw more attention to the swear word and this is supposed a Family Friendly site. I, personally, am more inclined to wear pie on my face rather than a halo on my head, but come on!...we have some young members that poke around this site. I also regularly have my own children (who are becoming excellent readers!) constantly looking over my shoulders as I read threads because they want to see the cute tortoise pictures in all of your avatars.

I know censorship is a tricky discussion and that is basically what we are talking about here, no one wants to feel they are on the receiving end of that nasty word, but I personally look to our moderators to set the tone on this forum.

Although you pointed it out, I will say it again.
The cuss/nasty words need to be abbreviated a bit more and more *** being used.
 

wellington

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Okay, so you all know. I did some editing of the too little abbreviating of inappropriate words. I did not delete anything, just made the words a little less obvious. If I missed any let me know
 

AnimalLady

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Sorry! I am a potty mouth by nature. I will be sure to be more careful. No worries.
 

Prairie Mom

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In regards to early comments wondering where people think the negativity is coming from..

I don't think most of it is really coming from the longer term members and I think threads like this very one that we are participating on have REALLY HELPED change the tone on the forum.

My suspicion is that the people who have been here longer are getting the hang of how to deal with the different situations on the forum. I actually think it comes more from the "middle population"-those like myself who still have some kinks to work out in our "forum-kung fu," ('forum-fu?, "the Forum FORCE is not as strong with us"?, not a high count of "Midi-forumians"?)

One burning example in my mind is that I remember quite a while ago in the enclosure section, a new member who was an obvious craftsman built an incredible tortoise chamber with waterfalls for humidity and a really stunning design. I believe he was some kind of industrial designer/architect. The big controversy was that he was using smooth black river rocks as substrate and if I remember right, he had some water moving under them as some kind of a self-cleaning filtration system. I understood the debate about the substrate, but I was shocked at how some forum members handled him and his post. The first really negative forum member wrote nearly a page picking apart e-v-e-r-y-t-h-I-n-g and commenting negatively in what I perceived as a rather forceful way. Because the negative commenter spoke so well and in such a strong voice, tons of people lined up to parrot what the member said and click the "like" button. The new member never responded and was obviously permanently chased away. I'm disappointed that they wouldn't feel comfortable posting further. This guy is someone who creates professionally, I'm certain he is doing AMAZING things as his tortoises get larger! Maybe he decided to change the substrate after all. My own tortoise has a preference for smooth surfaces to lay on. His husbandry looked like he cared for his tortoise. I would have loved to see what else he came up with and I wish I could see what he's up to today.

I really think threads like this are so beneficial. This thread has certainly helped me to think about a few things I can be doing.
 

AnimalLady

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In regards to early comments wondering where people think the negativity is coming from..

I don't think most of it is really coming from the longer term members and I think threads like this very one that we are participating on have REALLY HELPED change the tone on the forum.

My suspicion is that the people who have been here longer are getting the hang of how to deal with the different situations on the forum. I actually think it comes more from the "middle population"-those like myself who still have some kinks to work out in our "forum-kung fu," ('forum-fu?, "the Forum FORCE is not as strong with us"?, not a high count of "Midi-forumians"?)

One burning example in my mind is that I remember quite a while ago in the enclosure section, a new member who was an obvious craftsman built an incredible tortoise chamber with waterfalls for humidity and a really stunning design. I believe he was some kind of industrial designer/architect. The big controversy was that he was using smooth black river rocks as substrate and if I remember right, he had some water moving under them as some kind of a self-cleaning filtration system. I understood the debate about the substrate, but I was shocked at how some forum members handled him and his post. The first really negative forum member wrote nearly a page picking apart e-v-e-r-y-t-h-I-n-g and commenting negatively in what I perceived as a rather forceful way. Because the negative commenter spoke so well and in such a strong voice, tons of people lined up to parrot what the member said and click the "like" button. The new member never responded and was obviously permanently chased away. I'm disappointed that they wouldn't feel comfortable posting further. This guy is someone who creates professionally, I'm certain he is doing AMAZING things as his tortoises get larger! Maybe he decided to change the substrate after all. My own tortoise has a preference for smooth surfaces to lay on. His husbandry looked like he cared for his tortoise. I would have loved to see what else he came up with and I wish I could see what he's up to today.

I really think threads like this are so beneficial. This thread has certainly helped me to think about a few things I can be doing.
Does that thread still exist, i'd love to see it.
 

wellington

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I think its a little of both. Once your on for quite some time, it can get on your nerves to see the same bad things posted over and over again. It's like they did no home work at all on here and then they want us to "awwww" over their bad choices, when it's the millionth time repeating the same thing over and over. Sometimes in one day there will be 2 or 3 posts at the same time, different members asking the same thing, that has been answered in a million threads.
Sometimes I think people are just short on time or patients, yet they want to hurry on the forum and try to help someone and it comes out short and a little snide. My main thing is, get them while you got them, but in the nicest way possible with the point still being highlighted.
 
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