Offense Taken by New Member

[Yvonne G]

Il take that as a no then anyway and il finish by adding, if I wanted an opinion on wether two tortoises could be kept together, that would have been my question wouldn't it?

When you ask a question on an open Forum, we try to give you the benefit of our experience. There is no yes or no answer to any one question. Tortoises act certain ways for many reasons, and we have to show you the different reasons we're familiar with. Your digging question was answered right off the bat by cmac3 and killerrookie. It isn't a male/female thing. But we also tried to tell you, because it ISN'T a male/female thing, maybe it's something else and we gave you the something elses. Settle down and try to get along. If you don't want the benefit of our experience, then go someplace else, but we're very happy to have you here and share with you.

 

[Yvonne G]

Also, because tortoises' gender in the egg is determined by the temperature at which the eggs are incubated, it is a very good possibility that both tortoises are the same gender.

 

[Ben Cane]

I've said bullying is not a concern or issue 6 or 7 times and people just repeat it to me. Nobody's read my responses they just criticise. Like trolls. F this forum and goodbye

 

[Ben Cane]

Also, because tortoises' gender in the egg is determined by the temperature the eggs are incubated at, it is a very good possibility that both tortoises are the same gender.

Delete my account please

 

[Yvonne G]

Sounds to me like YOU'RE the one who is not listening, Ben. You account has been deleted. Too bad, as you really have so much to learn about tortoises.

 

[Tom]

Il take that as a no then anyway and il finish by adding, if I wanted an opinion on wether two tortoises could be kept together, that would have been my question wouldn't it?

I realize that Ben has gone by this point, but there are other people still reading this thread. Members, lurkers, and casual readers who just happened upon this thread. The following is for anyone still reading:

There is a tradition of helpfulness on this forum. Some people love it, and some people don't. When forum members read a post and see a potential problem, they take the time to write a response, even if the potential problem doesn't seem to have anything to do with the initial question. Some people say "thank you" and genuinely appreciate the effort and intended good will, while others feel as though they are the recipient of condescension and don't want the help.

Why do we try to help? I don't claim to speak for everyone, but I'm comfortable asserting that most people here try because they genuinely care about turtles and tortoise. Both their own, and other people's animals too. Many of us have seen the same tragedies over and over, and we want to help someone who may not yet have experienced one of these tragedies to avoid it. Like the time a new member was told to separate her two red foots, and then came back six weeks later asking what to do since one tortoise had literally eaten the back leg and tail of its cage mate…

This unsolicited advice is not offered in an attempt to insult someone's intelligence, start an argument, or be any sort of internet troll. Its offered because we see a familiar train wreck coming and we want to prevent it. We try to do this diplomatically, and some are better at diplomacy than others (referring to my own diplomatic failures here…), but there is never any malice or ill-intent on the part of the advice giver. Many times there is a clue offered in a sentence that foretells of a problem. For instance: Ben mentioned the "combi lamp" in post number 14 and as I read it, I made a mental note to mention this because, using that fixture, tells me that Ben is probably using a coil type UV bulb, and that he has probably received some bad pet store advice. Even though this doesn't seem to have anything to do with the initial question, it might be relevant to the initial question because baby sulcatas will often dig to avoid the painful eye burning light that comes from these cfl bulbs sometimes. Since Ben left in a huff, he might never learn about this potential issue, or all the problems that occur from keeping two sulcatas together as a pair, even if there is no obvious, overt hostility, but I hope that other readers can still learn. We also won't have the opportunity to point out to him that he's using the wrong substrate...

In summary, I would like to thank the caring members here who go out of their way to try to help others, even if those "others" don't appreciate it, or want the help for whatever reason. The world is full of all sorts of people, and I am proud of the helpful, dedicated, caring people that make up this community of tortoise lovers here on TFO.

 

[Tom]

I've seen two 70 year old males living in a 10x10 metre enclosure and they got along absolutely fine and had done so for 7 decades so I'm not concerned with bullying at all.. some animals get along and others don't, same as people

Ben, if you ever decide to come back around again, please tell us where you saw 70 year old sulcatas. This is not common and as they are a favorite species of mine, I'd love to learn more.

Also, people are social animals that live and thrive in groups. Most tortoise species are solitary and don't want, need or like the company of other tortoises in their territory. Sulcatas fall into this category.

 

[cmacusa3]

I realize that Ben has gone by this point, but there are other people still reading this thread. Members, lurkers, and casual readers who just happened upon this thread. The following is for anyone still reading:

There is a tradition of helpfulness on this forum. Some people love it, and some people don't. When forum members read a post and see a potential problem, they take the time to write a response, even if the potential problem doesn't seem to have anything to do with the initial question. Some people say "thank you" and genuinely appreciate the effort and intended good will, while others feel as though they are the recipient of condescension and don't want the help.

Why do we try to help? I don't claim to speak for everyone, but I'm comfortable asserting that most people here try because they genuinely care about turtles and tortoise. Both their own, and other people's animals too. Many of us have seen the same tragedies over and over, and we want to help someone who may not yet have experienced one of these tragedies to avoid it. Like the time a new member was told to separate her two red foots, and then came back six weeks later asking what to do since one tortoise had literally eaten the back leg and tail of its cage mate…

This unsolicited advice is not offered in an attempt to insult someone's intelligence, start an argument, or be any sort of internet troll. Its offered because we see a familiar train wreck coming and we want to prevent it. We try to do this diplomatically, and some are better at diplomacy than others (referring to my own diplomatic failures here…), but there is never any malice or ill-intent on the part of the advice giver. Many times there is a clue offered in a sentence that foretells of a problem. For instance: Ben mentioned the "combi lamp" in post number 14 and as I read it, I made a mental note to mention this because, using that fixture, tells me that Ben is probably using a coil type UV bulb, and that he has probably received some bad pet store advice. Even though this doesn't seem to have anything to do with the initial question, it might be relevant to the initial question because baby sulcatas will often dig to avoid the painful eye burning light that comes from these cfl bulbs sometimes. Since Ben left in a huff, he might never learn about this potential issue, or all the problems that occur from keeping two sulcatas together as a pair, even if there is no obvious, overt hostility, but I hope that other readers can still learn. We also won't have the opportunity to point out to him that he's using the wrong substrate...

In summary, I would like to thank the caring members here who go out of their way to try to help others, even if those "others" don't appreciate it, or want the help for whatever reason. The world is full of all sorts of people, and I am proud of the helpful, dedicated, caring people that make up this community of tortoise lovers here on TFO.

Well said Tom!!!

 

[Grandpa Turtle 144]

Sounds to me like YOU'RE the one who is not listening, Ben. You account has been deleted. Too bad, as you really have so much to learn about tortoises.

Don't worry Yvonne and Tom . You both tried your best . Ben will be back under a new name and more friendly if he cares about his torts !

 

[Grandpa Turtle 144]

And as I added on the other post : Tom And Yvonne tryed their best ! But if Ben cares about his torts he will come back , but under a new name and much more friendly !

 

[Tidgy's Dad]

The Thread has not been deleted, Tom.
Probably because of our current double posting problems there were two identical threads with different members replying on each.
The mods have now combined the two but it's still there, along with your admirable comment.
(so far.)

 

[ZEROPILOT]

In the form of this forum it's very common to sound rude and no one really wants to hear that everything they are doing is wrong or that they have just thrown away a lot of cash on useless or even harmful supplies.
You ( @Tom ) answer questions in a frank manner. Very often at great length.
I've come to appreciate that.
In the beginning, I though a few of your responses seemed rude. I no longer think so.
I know how upsetting it is to offer information and be ignored or offer some advice and scare away a new member.
I feel responsible for overloading a relatively new member and chasing her away myself. And she was a great lady. Just overwhelmed.
You are one of the "GO TO" members of this forum as far as I'm concerned.
Just keep doing what you can do and know that you can't always please everyone.
You have many friends here.

 

[ZEROPILOT]

I've said bullying is not a concern or issue 6 or 7 times and people just repeat it to me. Nobody's read my responses they just criticise. Like trolls. F this forum and goodbye

See you again later on...When it's too late.
Really man!! We're all just trying to be helpful.

 

[Yvonne G]

Ben Cane said: ↑
I've seen two 70 year old males living in a 10x10 metre enclosure and they got along absolutely fine and had done so for 7 decades so I'm not concerned with bullying at all..

Ben, if you ever decide to come back around again, please tell us where you saw 70 year old sulcatas. . .

The reason Tom said this is because 70 years ago sulcatas were not exported out of Africa. And unless you know the hatch date, a full grown imported sulcata is probably NOT 70 years old.

 

[Tom]

The reason Tom said this is because 70 years ago sulcatas were not exported out of Africa. And unless you know the hatch date, a full grown imported sulcata is probably NOT 70 years old.

You are correct as usual. They were first bred in this country in 1979 at the San Antonio Zoo. They didn't start getting imported in any numbers until the late 80's and this is when the general public first had access to them. I didn't see my first CB baby until 1991, and I had been in the trade since '86.

It is VERY unusual to see one older than 26-27 years old in this country. The original pair that first bred belonged to our own Bill Z. who gave them to the San Antonio Zoo after he got tired of carrying them in and out in his colder Northern climate. If I recall the story correctly he ws living in Connecticut at the time… @zovick , would you please correct me if any of this is wrong.

Looking at Ben Cane's substrate, and him using the term "metre" I was guessing he was from the UK, and perhaps someone there has had this species for that long. Its always fun to learn new things.

 

[zovick]

You are correct as usual. They were first bred in this country in 1979 at the San Antonio Zoo. They didn't start getting imported in any numbers until the late 80's and this is when the general public first had access to them. I didn't see my first CB baby until 1991, and I had been in the trade since '86.

It is VERY unusual to see one older than 26-27 years old in this country. The original pair that first bred belonged to our own Bill Z. who gave them to the San Antonio Zoo after he got tired of carrying them in and out in his colder Northern climate. If I recall the story correctly he ws living in Connecticut at the time… @zovick , would you please correct me if any of this is wrong.

Tom, you have the story absolutely correct with one minor addition. I actually sent 2.2 adults rather than just one pair to San Antonio in 1978. I obtained the first ones as 10" juveniles in 1972 from my friend who had been working in Africa and managed to get them exported to the US. In about 1973 or 74, another friend of mine obtained a 1.1 pair from the London Zoo, and a year later, he sold them to me. As time went by, they became very large, very heavy, and also very big eaters. I had feed them all winter (in northwestern CT this means from early September to late May) and also had to carry them in and out of my basement to get them to and from my outdoor pens. In the northwestern CT mountains, it gets rather cold at night even in July and August. In fact, we had frost every month of the year once or twice, so there was a lot of carrying done. This involved carrying those 4 huge tortoises up and down a flight of stairs from the basement and then about 50 more yards to and from my pen area. By 1978, I had had one or two clutches of eggs laid, but the eggs were infertile. I decided the animals would be better off in a warmer climate, so reached out to my friend, Joe Laszlo, Curator of Herpetology at San Antonio Zoo to see if he wanted to take them on loan. He agreed, so they were sent to SAZ and began reproducing successfully the next year. We split the babies 50/50 and I sold all of my share of the babies over the next few years. Ron Tremper bought a number of them when he still lived in CA and so did Ron Cauble of East Bay Vivarium. Not sure where all the SAZ allocated babies went, although I know some of them went to other zoos. Eventually I turned over the ownership of the group to SAZ and stopped receiving any share of the offspring. I often wonder how many of the sulcata we see today could possibly trace back to those first two breeding pairs.

Note: I am told that SAZ eventually sent the adults to Life Fellowship in FL, but don't know if they reproduced there or not, though I would assume so, with their excellent track record with other species. If so, there could be even more offspring of those first two pairs around the country than I mentioned above.

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

I am a keeper of various animals all shapes and sizes, but my two six month old sulcata's are my latest editions.. I've used other forums before and there's always someone who has nothing better to do than insult my intelligence or try to start an arguement so let me start off by saying, this is a simple question and please stick to the topic..

I've had my two boys (or so I've been told there boys) for a good 2 months now and they've settled in nicely.. both eat, drink and poop (a lot) and I've been monitoring there sizes and weights. and Darwin, the larger of the two seen on the right of my avatar, has been gaining weight a lot faster than Oogway (named after character from Kung Foo panda).. and I've noticed Oogway is more inclined to dig holes in his substrate than Darwin, the growth difference and behaviour patterns leads me to think maybe Oogway is female? NO I know it's near impossible to tell at this age but would anyone else be of the opinion that it's possible that he/she is displaying female behaviours? In My opinion NO. Or do some sulcata simply like to dig more than others? In general yes, specific animals yes and no

Can you answer my questions without insult?

Why do you think it's two boys, was it a Vet that did laparoscopy or did someone indicate a incubation temperature that would lead to more male offspring than female, or some other method?

All manner of life competes, when confined to a fixed space the dominate animal will experience stress as it's domination of the subordinate is not working. The subordinate will experience stress as it will have less favorable micro choices/conditions. Have you ever noticed this as a keeper of various other animals of all shapes and sizes that are enclosed together?

Some animals have chemical ques to suppress cohabitants, some is behavioral. Like some fish expressing growth regulators in a confined water system. Tortoises may have some chemical signal, but I don't recall reading that as the case perhaps it has not been investigated. What is well know based on empirical data and observation both in captivity and in the wild is that land dwelling chelonians for the most part are not social or share resources other than out of necessity (fossil burrows, limited sun retreats, as a reproductive strategy 'arribadas' etc.) and given the opportunity will seek distance from others, less males during or for breeding.

With the potential to have a large outdoor space (3 acres is great) where maybe even two adult male sulcata can co-habitat, is there a chance you are or could grow them up in a comparable large enclosure based on their current size? I don't know what the ratio would be, I guess this way - 300 pounds of tortoise (two at 150 each) on three acres, that's about 100 pounds of tortoise per acre. If they are 1/4 pound that would be 1/400 of an acre? An acre is 43,560 square feet so 1/400 is about 109 square feet or a ten x ten enclosure per neonate tortoise. I think that would work.

 

[Tom]

Tom, you have the story absolutely correct with one minor addition. I actually sent 2.2 adults rather than just one pair to San Antonio in 1978. I obtained the first ones as 10" juveniles in 1972 from my friend who had been working in Africa and managed to get them exported to the US. In about 1973 or 74, another friend of mine obtained a 1.1 pair from the London Zoo, and a year later, he sold them to me. As time went by, they became very large, very heavy, and also very big eaters. I had feed them all winter (in northwestern CT this means from early September to late May) and also had to carry them in and out of my basement to get them to and from my outdoor pens. In the northwestern CT mountains, it gets rather cold at night even in July and August. In fact, we had frost every month of the year once or twice, so there was a lot of carrying done. This involved carrying those 4 huge tortoises up and down a flight of stairs from the basement and then about 50 more yards to and from my pen area. By 1978, I had had one or two clutches of eggs laid, but the eggs were infertile. I decided the animals would be better off in a warmer climate, so reached out to my friend, Joe Laszlo, Curator of Herpetology at San Antonio Zoo to see if he wanted to take them on loan. He agreed, so they were sent to SAZ and began reproducing successfully the next year. We split the babies 50/50 and I sold all of my share of the babies over the next few years. Ron Tremper bought a number of them when he still lived in CA and so did Ron Cauble of East Bay Vivarium. Not sure where all the SAZ allocated babies went, although I know some of them went to other zoos. Eventually I turned over the ownership of the group to SAZ and stopped receiving any share of the offspring. I often wonder how many of the sulcata we see today could possibly trace back to those first two breeding pairs.

Note: I am told that SAZ eventually sent the adults to Life Fellowship in FL, but don't know if they reproduced there or not, though I would assume so, with their excellent track record with other species. If so, there could be even more offspring of those first two pairs around the country than I mentioned above.

Thank you for sharing this Bill. I love getting to hear stories of the history of our tortoises. No better source than the actual source! I'm very grateful that you are here and take the time to share things like this with us.

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

Tom, you have the story absolutely correct with one minor addition. I actually sent 2.2 adults rather than just one pair to San Antonio in 1978. I obtained the first ones as 10" juveniles in 1972 from my friend who had been working in Africa and managed to get them exported to the US. In about 1973 or 74, another friend of mine obtained a 1.1 pair from the London Zoo, and a year later, he sold them to me. As time went by, they became very large, very heavy, and also very big eaters. I had feed them all winter (in northwestern CT this means from early September to late May) and also had to carry them in and out of my basement to get them to and from my outdoor pens. In the northwestern CT mountains, it gets rather cold at night even in July and August. In fact, we had frost every month of the year once or twice, so there was a lot of carrying done. This involved carrying those 4 huge tortoises up and down a flight of stairs from the basement and then about 50 more yards to and from my pen area. By 1978, I had had one or two clutches of eggs laid, but the eggs were infertile. I decided the animals would be better off in a warmer climate, so reached out to my friend, Joe Laszlo, Curator of Herpetology at San Antonio Zoo to see if he wanted to take them on loan. He agreed, so they were sent to SAZ and began reproducing successfully the next year. We split the babies 50/50 and I sold all of my share of the babies over the next few years. Ron Tremper bought a number of them when he still lived in CA and so did Ron Cauble of East Bay Vivarium. Not sure where all the SAZ allocated babies went, although I know some of them went to other zoos. Eventually I turned over the ownership of the group to SAZ and stopped receiving any share of the offspring. I often wonder how many of the sulcata we see today could possibly trace back to those first two breeding pairs.

Note: I am told that SAZ eventually sent the adults to Life Fellowship in FL, but don't know if they reproduced there or not, though I would assume so, with their excellent track record with other species. If so, there could be even more offspring of those first two pairs around the country than I mentioned above.

In this line of history, some that came through Tremper/East Bay Vivarium(?) ended up with members of what was the "Bay Area turtle and Tortoise" society. They were displayed at Steinhart Aquarium during an annual T&T show. I was 12 or 13 so that would put it at 74/75. I think this may be when Eric Good was first exposed to them as well. Funny how some individual animals have had such a profound influence on the overall interest in North America and beyond.

 

[Yvonne G]

I wonder where Barbara What's-her-name in Porterville got Tinkerbelle from? Anyone know?