Do not buy from petsmart or petco

KevinGG

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In biopharmecutical research (among many users of research models required by law) there is a book called the "Guide for the care and use of Laboratory Animals". Free copy here - > https://grants.nih.gov/grants/olaw/guide-for-the-care-and-use-of-laboratory-animals.pdf

It is for the most part regarding mice and rats and also to a great extent it is how I have seen these rodents cared for by people who use mice and rats as a food source for their pets that eat them.

Keep in mind that is for two very similar species. It is written by vets with much experience and to some extent enforced within the industry as results based on modeling that don't follow those guidelines can be seen as not able to stand up to scrutiny.

Pick one species like Russians, what would the same kinds of guidelines be? For pets much simpler. Back in the day herp societies would offer care sheets to pet shops and use those care sheets in practice at the pet shop, or be the pet shop that members would go out of their way to talk dirt on.

Maybe PetCo and PetSmart would welcome some sort of "we follow blah blah guidelines" in our stores? Both these stores have self policed on many matters and they might do it for this as well.

But what would those guidelines be??? Would they be written by someone with a lifetime of experience? A committee of recognized hobbyists and vets?
It's a tough thing to sort out. Maybe it would be more simple than this and I'm overthinking it?

I don't think you're overthinking it. I was thinking the same thing, but was scared off by the logistics. I'm glad to hear it has worked in certain instances.

Like most things, I think the best course is for someone to just start. Begin by writing a care sheet that addresses the above concerns. Difficult part is figuring out guidelines that are correct, yet are still enticing enough for a chain store to adopt. Would there even be an incentive for them to read it? For the sake of my thought process, let's say yes for now. This could then be presented to people who would give it some credibility and feedback. Vets, turtle/tortoise conservation groups, breeders, etc. Could even be presented to Josh. Certainly, something on the guide that read: backed by the TSA, TC, TTPG, TurtleRoom, TortoiseForum (home to such and such number of chelonian keepers worldwide), and x number of vets would give them better reason to consider it. Obviously, this needs more thought, but let's keep talking about it.
 

Tom

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In regard to temporary housing, I'll rephrase. A wild tortoise is imported, sent out to a store somewhere in the country, and set up in a display case. Here it lives until purchased. For the sake of this conversation, lets call it two weeks. A well meaning, but uninformed person decides to buy the tortoise. (Im speculating that a large percentage of their buyers aren't experienced.) The young person in the blue shirt, who is presented as the expert on reptiles, informs her of the care requirements of the being. The care is simple. From a reading of the Petco care sheet (and Petsmarts isn't much better), it seems three square feet is adequate for an indoor enclosure, alfalfa pellets as substrate (because tortoises eat their substrate), and no basking area. Store-bought leafy greens, squash, and carrot sprinkled with calcium powder daily constitute a good diet with a fruit snack every now and again.

I write you all of this because it leads me to conclude that, for a good percentage of tortoises, the display cases are not temporary. They are a two week preview of what life will be. If these pet stores, once an animal has been purchased, advocated for larger enclosures, proper heating, proper diet, proper substrate, it would be different. But they don't. And the reasoning, as stated by the pet store employee above, is that tortoises are a means to an end. They are an incentive device to buy the products these stores stock. And yes, to whoever is going to say it next, it is very practical. Doesn't make it right.

In regard to defining care, the point is not to label people or corporations "abusers", it is to give animals suitable care. Its always arbitrary, but some criteria on this forum has emerged from the years of collective experience. Not that we all agree on every aspect, but we do have an idea of suitable care. For example, @Will uses, in my opinion, small enclosures for certain species of tortoises. I think he said 3' x 2'. But he still provides, correct substrate, lighting, heating, diet, etc. We've all used rubbermaid for quarantine, or hospital tanks, or separating a male from a gravid female. But we didn't abandon every other aspect of care in doing so. I think definitive is always incorrect, but at some point we have to speak out to improve conditions. Maybe it is similar to a gut call. More likely it is the confluence of circumstances or words that we haven't defined, such as 'temporary' or 'experienced keeper'. We may give Will a pass on his enclosures because he has worked with a multitude of species and has experience with what works well. We may also give certain temporary enclosures a pass. Is every other care aspect met? Good. For how long? A month? No problem. A year? You're pushing it.



They are very clean. That is true. The Petco care sheet advised a once a week cleaning with bleach. By looking at both corporations care sheets, it seems Petsmart gives better care, slightly, which is in line with what I've noticed in store. (Petco seems to care for RES better though?) Ill admit that Ive rarely spoken to the employees about how they care for the tortoises in store, but Ive regularly asked them general care questions with awful results. Now that Ive read them, it seems they gathered all of their "expertise" from the store pamphlets. Even if the care you mentioned above was universal, my problem still lies with the idea that this is "temporary".



You got me. Im vegan. Yeah, I think we may be doomed to disagree too. You have my opinion on wild caught already. Ill give you my standpoint on meat. Ill tell you what I tell my friends and family just so my opinion is out there. (Ill skip the health perspective which anyone can find courtesy of the World Health Organization.) If you choose to eat meat, fine, but give the animal the respect of being a sentient being. We seem to think of animals as product because the end result of "meat" ends up on our plate. In doing so, we doom their capacity to one of only death. In reality, the animals we consume arent much different from the animals we would be appalled at being consumed. Turtles, dogs, cats, horses are all consumed in other parts of the country. Lets not fool ourselves that somehow they deserve life more than a cow. If our opinion is that certain animals deserve to be eaten, then that sentiment shouldn't be balked at when applied to other animals. Don't get me wrong, my opinion is that no sentient animal should be killed, but the hypocrisy of most people I know is unbearable. Ill quote Matthieu Ricard, 'We maintain a kind of moral schizophrenia that has us lavishly pampering our pets and at the same time planting our forks in the pigs that have been sent to the slaughter by the millions, even though they are in no way less conscious, less sensitive to pain, or less intelligent than our cats and dogs." This in no way states that people who consume meat are evil, which is what is usually taken away. I still feed my dogs and turtles animals. I used to eat meat daily. These are the facts of the matter. This is merely a plea to be more conscious and to do the best you can.

I also usually ask people if they would kill the animal they are eating. Clearly Tom, you would. I think that is a good policy. I would implore one not to, but if need, or want be, then kill the deer yourself with the understanding of its true capacity. If one should refuse to kill an animal personally, and instead buy meat at the store, then visit the slaughterhouse.

No need to start a debate on this, unless you feel you have to. Just thought I'd voice the other side of this issue.



I think you're right. We are pretty close in regard to tortoises. You understand my position perfectly. To take it a step further, we can agree that these stores should be implored to do better, no? Im not sure what that looks like, but just holding that question might be good enough for this moment.

Kevin, I'm glad we followed this through. Thank you again for explaining your POV so well. While we may not agree on all points, we would both like to see things improve at these two pet store chains. I am friends with a couple of Petco managers, and this conversation has inspired me to take them to task. They both know that those pamphlets are not great, but they seem powerless to change the corporate policies and are bound to follow them. Other than voting with the almighty dollar, I'd like to ask them to help me figure out the best way(s) to get through to the people who set the policy.
 

KevinGG

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Kevin, I'm glad we followed this through. Thank you again for explaining your POV so well. While we may not agree on all points, we would both like to see things improve at these two pet store chains. I am friends with a couple of Petco managers, and this conversation has inspired me to take them to task. They both know that those pamphlets are not great, but they seem powerless to change the corporate policies and are bound to follow them. Other than voting with the almighty dollar, I'd like to ask them to help me figure out the best way(s) to get through to the people who set the policy.

Thank you Tom. Please keep us posted on this. I'd be very happy to help in any capacity.
 

Andy27012

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Working for one of the two mentioned big box pet stores this video is a lie. While that supplier may not treat their animals well we do not and would not purchase from them. If animals come in or become sick in our care they go to the vet regardless of cost. If an animal does come in sick we do not sell it until it has recovered. Animal care is very strict and taken very seriously. We are regulated by the usda and purchase turtles and tortoises from the "worlds largest producer of salmonella free turtles".
 

Bonjowr

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Working for one of the two mentioned big box pet stores this video is a lie. While that supplier may not treat their animals well we do not and would not purchase from them. If animals come in or become sick in our care they go to the vet regardless of cost. If an animal does come in sick we do not sell it until it has recovered. Animal care is very strict and taken very seriously. We are regulated by the usda and purchase turtles and tortoises from the "worlds largest producer of salmonella free turtles".

Some people that work at these stores seem to not agree with you.
 

Andy27012

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That is a great example of a bad apple, assuming it's true and not staged they are not following policy.
 

Tom

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That video seems really far fetched to me. It looks totally staged. Still, there are plenty of stupid and inept people in the world that could have made a mistake like that. Petco is capable of hiring a moron just the same as any other company in the world.

If some Petco employee accidentally threw that lizard in the trash, then they should be dealt with accordingly. That's a big mistake. Who here reading this has not made a mistake at some point in their life. I have. Plenty of times. If that is in fact what happened here, and an individual employee made a stupid error, I would hardly damn an entire company with thousands of employees because of it. How many here would stand up to the kind of scrutiny that these pet stores are under nowadays?
 

Yvonne G

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And how many times have we seen someone come here and ask if their tortoise is dead? It's sometimes pretty hard to tell.
 

KrissyLeigh

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Wow, y'all have debated this topic thoroughly and well so I won't add to it. I WILL say that Petco does care for it's animals - I bought a rat from them and it turned out to be sick. So I went to the store, talked to the manager, and Petco set up a vet appointment for me and my rat the same day. They paid for the visit and medications (thank goodness, because it was a $200 bill).

If they are willing to do that for a $7 rat, I think they would do the same for their other critters.

Just wanted to share my experience, since the original post was very bold and encompassing. The rat, Cleopatra, has fully recovered after treatment. Also, I had no problems with the other rat I bought from them.
 
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This is horrifying. But the thing to think about is that pet stores are almost always temporary homes. The Petsmart near me isn't bad and believe it or not one of our tortoises is from there. But again, that's no excuse for how terrifying that video is.But we demand cheap tortoises, and each day they're more in demand, so they give us cheap tortoises. I wish captive breeding could be a bigger thing, so we can still have torts without harming native populations.
 

Digger&Blinky

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I cant beleive i started this. That was a long time ago and i guess i had no proof that if was petco.
 
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What you all seem to be missing is that these stores are only as good as the management, and that is obviously subject to change. What we need to be doing is making sure that the stores we are buying from in our area are humane to our definitions, whatever that may be, and advocating change where we see that it is due.

I think the idea for some sort of certification is GENIUS and this is the absolute best place to do it. We have the opportunity to institute real change that affects the lives of real animals. This is a chance to spread the knowledge offered on these forums to everyone. I for one am more than willing to do my part and more to get this idea off the ground. 'C'mon tortoise forums, lets rally to make change and spread our knowledge to pet stores and owners everywhere!
 

Tom

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What you all seem to be missing is that these stores are only as good as the management, and that is obviously subject to change. What we need to be doing is making sure that the stores we are buying from in our area are humane to our definitions, whatever that may be, and advocating change where we see that it is due.

I think the idea for some sort of certification is GENIUS and this is the absolute best place to do it. We have the opportunity to institute real change that affects the lives of real animals. This is a chance to spread the knowledge offered on these forums to everyone. I for one am more than willing to do my part and more to get this idea off the ground. 'C'mon tortoise forums, lets rally to make change and spread our knowledge to pet stores and owners everywhere!

No. Not really. The directives on how the animals are cared for and housed come form the corporate offices. The individual store managers have no say in the matter.

You will need to contact the corporate offices and convince them to change their policies if you want to change things in the individual stores.
 
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If there were to be a certification, it would go through corporate offices and affect all stores by very definition. Also, it would more importantly help to inform owners. Besides, what individuals choose to do (like in the case of that iguana video) cannot be controlled by a company directive.
 
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...and I doubt anybody in Petco headquarters is saying to themselves "lets abuse animals and cause suffering for economic gain." We should give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they don't know any better in regards to enclosure size or water dishes. We have all encountered an ignorant pet store employee. But we do know better and should do something other than just criticize them.
 

Tom

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...and I doubt anybody in Petco headquarters is saying to themselves "lets abuse animals and cause suffering for economic gain." We should give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they don't know any better in regards to enclosure size or water dishes. We have all encountered an ignorant pet store employee. But we do know better and should do something other than just criticize them.
I agree with you.

Call corporate headquarters for Petco and Petsmart tomorrow and ask to speak to the executive in charge of tortoise care guidelines. When they get on the phone, tell them that we said they are doing it wrong, and they need bigger enclosures, better food, white lights instead of red bulbs in the day time, and no ramped water bowls for tortoises. Tell the person that we want these changes implemented nationwide ASAP. Tell them you are educating them on these matters because you want to help them do business better and set a better example for their customers.

Let me know what they say…

Oh! And don't forget to tell them to remind their employees to not throw any iguanas in the garbage!
 

Nancy Coffelt

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At the very beginning of the video i started to wonder if these were the types of videos Tom was talking about in another thread that are staged by peta with sad music, to make people feel a certain way. At the end i was not disappointed when i saw who did the video.
It hard to say for sure if these clips are even in the same facility or who's facility it is.
Its horrible the way the pet industry keeps animals, but if you think cows, chickens, pigs, or other livestock that is bread for us to EAT is raised in a way any differently to this you are mistaken. We live in an overpopulated world that is filled to the top with profit mongering capitalists.
It wouldn't surprise me at all to find out there were worse conditions out there either. We live in a sad overpopulated world that is only going to get sadder and more overpopulated.

I totally agree with you.
 

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