My first hatchling: enclosure is nearly complete

C-Turtle

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Hi there,

I just wanted to put a post up with a picture of my artificial habitat that is for a redfoot hatchling. I am waiting for a couple of bulbs that I ordered, but I think that almost everything else is in place. I do have a strawberry plant and an aloe plant that I would like to add to this habitat, and I am hoping to hang them out of my tortoise’s reach. Does anyone have any experience with hanging plants inside an enclosure? I plan to use rope to hang them from the “side rooves” (pieces of wood that are attached to the top of the terrarium - see picture).

I just installed my humidifier today, and my thermometer/hygrometer is holding at 88F and 76% in the hot side of the enclosure. The infrared thermometer gave readings for the hot spot (110F) and the hide (82F). The hide also should become warmer when I add the 50w night time bulb that is arriving by the end of the month.

Please let me know if I am forgetting anything! I know this is not an ideal enclosure, but I bought this terrarium before I knew about tortoise tables. I did add cardboard around the sides of the terrarium to keep my little tort from looking out the glass all day. Also, this enclosure is temporary, and I plan to move my tort to a tortoise table or a shed after 4-5 years in this enclosure...

I’m already starting to think the cardboard idea might not be the best. It is getting very damp from the humidity. I doubt it can hold together for said 4-5 years. Does anybody have any other suggestions for ways to restrict the view?

Thanks!
-c
 

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Beasty_Artemis

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Duct tape would work. You can buy different colors, and i like the camouflage colored stuff that has foliage patterns on it. It adds a nice jungle vibe. I always have to go to the camping/ hunting section of a store to track that style down.
 

TammyJ

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The picture will not enlarge for me so I cannot see it properly.

What is your substrate?
 

Taylor T.

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Redfoots don't really need a basking spot and it dries out their shell causing pyramiding. There still should be a warm and cool side though.
 

C-Turtle

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Thanks everyone!

Something I forgot to mention is that there is heating cable beneath the floor of the terrarium (don’t worry, it’s on the outside!)...

I plan to remove the cardboard and the heat emitter bulb. I let them run for a few hours and tested them again, and the hottest spot I measured was ~140F! I will go to the camping section of my nearest store for duct tape (thanks Beasty!), and I plan to install a thermostat that I can connect to the heat cable to make sure I don’t cook my baby!

Taylor, thank you for your input. I’ve done a little research on pyramiding, and I am under the impression that RFs still need some UVB. I just have the one fluorescent bulb (150w UVB), and I plan to put it on a timer with a 12hr on/off cycle. The other light fixture will have a 50w night time heat bulb. I plan to remove the middle fixture completely. Is this too much light for RF hatchling??

Thanks in advance!
-c
 

Taylor T.

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They definitely need UVB, I'm sorry if I made it sound like they didn't. What I meant was they do not need a spot in their enclosure with an elevated temperature temperature compared to the surrounding enclosure. Florescent tubes are my preferred choice for UVB as they do not produce a desiccating heat.

That shouldn't be too much light as long as you provide shade for it to retreat under. Plants work well for this.

What type of florescent bulb do you have that uses 150W? Most I've seen are a lot lower than that.
 
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C-Turtle

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I have this bulb (not 150w, but 150 something [?]). Says it is a desert bulb but I also read that it is okay to use with forest species as long as the light fixture has a cover.
Thanks,
-c
 

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Taylor T.

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That type of bulb is not recommended. They have been reported to cause eye issues in tortoises, especially younger ones. I would recommend switching to a long tube florescent bulb. (I like the Arcadia brand ones)
 

Tim Carlisle

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Most folks on this forum recommend against using the curly-Q bulbs. Use a mercury vapor lamp instead like this one:

618zvYACX8L.jpg
 

Taylor T.

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Most folks on this forum recommend against using the curly-Q bulbs. Use a mercury vapor lamp instead like this one:

618zvYACX8L.jpg


MVBs are not ideal for tropical species (or any species in my opinion) as they are much more desiccating to tortoises shells than tube florescent bulbs.

They also stop producing UVB very quickly even if it still lights up.
 
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C-Turtle

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Thanks everyone for all the input! I have definitely read mixed reviews about bulbs, and I think that I’m just going to take my chances with this one. I used it to start a couple of pots of jalapeño plants, which worked well, so I definitely know it’s putting out enough good stuff that my tort can get some uvb from it. I hope to take tort outside for sunshine daily if I’m able. I also don’t plan to keep him or her in this enclosure past year 5. I have read that redfoots mostly hide in the shade during that stage of their life, so hopefully the potential for it to damage the eyes will be minimal. I’ll definitely get a bulb that is easy on the eyes (forgive the cliche) for tort’s permanent living space one day down the road. For now, I’m just trying to get the temperature right. I’ve got two night time heat emitter bulbs on the way: a 50w and a 75w. I plan to Goldilocks the heck out of it until I can get the temperature to hold at 80F on the cool side and 88F on the warm side. The light will be on a 12hr on 12hr off timer, and there is a thermostat that I will install to cut off the heat when it gets too hot. I’m going to be adding plants soon, as well...

Does it sound like I’m on the right track? Am I missing anything obvious?

Thanks again for all the input. This community is an amazing resource. I appreciate the warm welcome!
 
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Taylor T.

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I REALLY would not keep using the coil bulb. Nobody knows exactly what it does to their eyes, but it's possible it's slowly causing permanent loss of vision. Also, people on this forum with UV meters say that they don't produce very much good UVB compared to tube type bulbs.

Unless you have a UV meter, you should replace even good UVB bulb every six months or so, simply because they CAN stop producing UVB that quickly. This doesn't mean that they usually do, but if
you have no way of knowing, it is better to play it safe.

It you are interested in investing in a UV meter, I believe the Solarmeter 6.5 is what most people use.

However, if you let your tortoise outside for about 30 minutes daily, you won't need any source of artificial UVB at all. Maybe try to do your daily soaks outside in the sun? Just make sure there is a corner of the soaking container that is in the shade so he won't overheat.

Your temperatures sound good.
 
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C-Turtle

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Gotcha. Makes sense. Do you have any specific models that you can recommend?
 

Yvonne G

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I have changed all my MVBs over to the fluorescent tube type UVB lights:

T-5 fluorescent bulb.jpg

You can buy the bulbs and the fixture from lightyourreptiles.com. Amazon also sells them.

Then I have LOTS of plants around inside the enclosure to provide a lot of shade for my YF baby.
 

C-Turtle

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Thanks Taylor and Yvonne! These look and sound like amazing bulbs and fixtures that I will probably be buying down the road when I build tort's permanent enclosure. However, unless I read something substantially scientific, I think I am going to take my chances and use the bulb I've got and similar, USA made compact fluorescent bulbs for the first 4-5 years. I have been searching the reptile forum sites for good, peer-reviewed journal articles about eye damage associated with compact fluorescent bulbs, and I cannot find any. I just have too many questions about the individuals that did experience eye damage (ie- were they given proper shade? How far was the bulb from the substrate? Was there more than one tortoise in the enclosure, and did both experience the same level of eye damage?). I did find a study that was done by a member of a turtle forum (please see quote below).
1a.

Re: Compact lamps harmful? From: lilacdawndragon

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1a.

Re: Compact lamps harmful?

Posted by: "lilacdawndragon" [email protected] lilacdawndragon

Fri Aug 21, 2009 6:51 am (PDT)

Hi, Ingo.

Welcome to the group.

You're right, I have not managed to write up and publish any more compact lamp test results since the report on the ExoTerra ReptiGlo Compacts which I wrote in January 2008.

At that time, ExoTerra disputed my findings in that report, saying that one set of lamps which I had tested were not representative of their product; they believed that somehow the online store which I purchased them from had sold me prototype lamps which should never have been sold at all... go figure.

Anyhow, they sent me a new set of samples, which I tested... they were not much different from the original ones... BUT... in March of this year, someone else wanted me to test an ExoTerra vivarium canopy for coil bulbs and sent it along with two 26W ReptiGlo 10.0 coils and these two are COMPLETELY different to last year's model! So there is no point in my publishing those older results now.

The 2009 lamps even have a different shaped base (more like a cylinder than a cup-shape, if that makes any sense to you)... The UVB output is much lower overall - making it one of the weakest 10.0 compact lamps available -but it still has a higher proportion of its output in the shorter wavelengths, so the spectrum is not what I consider optimal, although there is almost nothing below 290nm in this latest version.

Because of the very low output, these lamps are in my opinion extremely unlikely to cause eye problems if used at sensible distances (eg. 25 - 30cm).

Here are some sample readings, all measured from the side of a bare lamp held vertically in a fixture with no reflector or dome, at 30cm distance:

Brand new lamp (30mins): 15 µW/cm² and UV Index 0.9

Lamp after 105 hrs (approx 10 days use): 13 µW/cm² and UV Index 0.8

Lamp after 750 hrs (approx 2.5 months use): 11 µW/cm² and UV Index 0.6

I have two of these on longterm testing right now and they will reach 1,000 hours (3 months) soon, so I hope to complete a proper report then.

> Or would you recommend NOT to use ANY compact lamps in vivaria?

Because of the problems associated with certain compact lamps which started a couple of years ago, a lot of people have become rather paranoid about them. There are even some websites where they tell people that NO compact lamps are safe! This is untrue - some are fine, and I use them myself in two of my small gecko set-ups.

Some compact lamps, such as the Arcadia D3 7% and D3+ 10% Compact Reptile Lamps and the Lucky Reptile Compact UV Sun Lamps which you posted results for, have spectra which in the UVB region, are quite close to sunlight, with almost no very short-wavelength UVB and a steady increase in UV from about 295nm up to 315nm.

These are good lamps.

The reasons I personally don't use these lamps which have more sun-like UVB spectra for my larger sun-basking lizards or in large vivaria have nothing to do with safety.

The UVB obtained from any fluorescent lamp (tube or compact) is very weak compared to sunlight. At a reasonable basking distance, eg. 25 - 30cm (10" - 12") it rarely exceeds UV Index 1.0 with a brand new lamp. With many 5% tubes it does not even reach UV Index 0.4 - 0.5.

These levels are typical of the daytime UVB outdoors in the SHADE. This is very different from a UV Index of maybe 3.0 - 5.0 in full early morning sunlight anywhere in the world where reptiles are basking at the beginning of the day. To provide levels as high as that, you need a high quality mercury vapour lamp or metal halide over the basking area.

To my mind there are two ways of providing UVB to a reptile.

The first is the "shade method". You basically create a very large area in the vivarium (inhabited by the reptile for a considerable period of time each day - and including the basking area) with a UVB gradient that resembles UVB outdoors in the shade. (UV Index from zero to about 1.5 to 2.0)

I think this is probably ideal for crepuscular species or those which live in deep shade, and/or non-basking species. I think many sun-basking species can also survive quite successfully if they receive this low level of UVB over a large part of their body for long periods each day.

This sort of "background" UVB is most easily obtained by using long fluorescent tubes, extending halfway across an enclosure, from the warm end towards the cool end. These produce a large footprint of low-level UVB.

The second method is the "patch of sunlight" method. This involves supplying UVB with a steeper gradient, from zero to maybe UV Index 4.0 - 7.0, in the basking zone only. This mimics a beam of morning sunlight. It must of course be bigger than the reptile, so it can expose its whole body to heat, light and UVB all at once. But when not basking, the reptile then moves out of the gradient into shade which may have almost no UVB at all.

I think this method is more appropriate for sun-loving, basking species which thermoregulate by warming up in the morning then shuttling from sun to shade all day.

The "patch of sunlight" method requires a high-output UVB mercury vapour flood lamp over the basking spot. Basking temperatures must be adjusted using extra incandescent lamps if necessary, to keep the thermal gradient correct.

Over a whole day, the total "dose" of UVB received by a reptile may be roughly similar with either method; i.e. a low dose for a long period, or a high dose for several short periods. I know of no scientific evidence for this; maybe someone could set up two vivaria, watch the lizards' basking behaviour and do the experiment, one day. (It would be a great project...) But in humans they use the same concept for UVB irradiation, i.e. dose = intensity x exposure time.

The reason I find compact lamps with "safer" spectra difficult to use in vivaria is because they are not ideal for either "shade" or "patch of sunlight" methods.

They produce a small zone of light with a steep UVB gradient - so unless you are illuminating a very small reptile in a very small vivarium, they do not provide a big enough zone for the "shade" method.

But the output is nowhere near high enough to create a "patch of sunlight" even if placed right next to the basking lamp. You are very unlikely to be able to produce a decent-sized basking zone with UV Index 3.0 or 4.0, for example, under a compact lamp with a safer spectrum.

I suppose I ought to give everyone a quick update on the current situation as far as I know it, with regard to other brands of compact lamps. Please bear with me, as it's rather complicated.

ZooMed told me that stocks of their new version of the ZooMed Reptisun 5.0 and 10.0 Compact Lamps, with safer spectra with no non-terrestrail wavelengths of UVB, were replacing all the older style lamps in the USA from February 2009, and in Europe from April 2009. ZooMed said that from April 1st, all new stock shipped to anywhere in the world would have the new phosphors.

(I tested the prototypes in December 2008 and they looked good to me.)

But unfortunately, although I was supposed to receive samples of the actual production run (i.e. current stock) back in April, enquiries in June, July and even the beginning of this month have resulted in our UK distributor saying he doesn't think they have received any of the new type yet. So I can't confirm that the new phosphors are "out there" just yet, I'm afraid. It's very frustrating.

The situation with the American company Zilla (formerly R-Zilla, formerly ESU) is even more complicated.

They, too, have reformulated their lamps. As folks in the USA may remember, they issued a voluntary recall on all Desert 50 Series lamps but never recalled any Tropical 25 lamps.

In late September 2008 I received a consignment of 20 lamps from most of the Desert 50 Series range, recently re-launched. Some had new phosphors, and those which did were much improved although one of the 20 lamps had another problem - a UVC leak. However, I am still receiving one or two reports of eye problems associated with the purchase of what might be old stock of the Desert 50 series... and several new reports of eye problems with the Tropical 25 series lamps - this is a new problem. I have been sent several lamps and these are apparently "old stock" Tropical 25s.. but some of these were purchased very recently - one only a couple of weeks ago, from big chain stores, so I don't understand what's going on here.

Anyway... I sent a 95-page report on 29 different lamps, including all the case reports, to Zilla about 2 weeks ago and I'm awaiting their response.

I have never been sent any samples, (old or new phosphors) of the Desert 50 Coil Lamps nor have I been sent any Tropical 25 lamps at all from Zilla (the only ones I have seen were those which had been associated with photo-kerato-conjunctivitis, sent by the owners). So I cannot comment on the Coil Lamps specifically; although all the new Desert 50 Series I tested appeared to have a very similar phosphor, so I'm assuming the Coil is the same.

I tested an ESU Super UV Coil 20W lamp in 2006 and it was emitting only 1µW/cm² when brand new.

Other UVB compact lamps which I have tested over the last couple of years are:

Namiba Terra Replux UV-Plus D3 UV Compact Lamp 8% UVB 23 watt. The spectrum and output was very similar to the Arcadia D3 Reptile Compact Lamp and Lucky Reptile Compact UV Sun Lamps mentioned above.

Ferplast Compact Lamp UV-B 10% 26 watt

ReptaPets Australia ReptaSun Plus 26W Spectrum 10.0

Repti Zoo Repti Sol Compact 10.0 26W

Big Apple Herpetological UVB Mystic Compact 18W

These four all had significant amounts of non-terrestrial, short wavelength UVB and the Repti Zoo lamp also had a significant UVC leak.

There seem to be two basic problems with all lamps manufactured cheaply in China.

Firstly, they appear to use a type of quartz glass that allows UVC and very short-wavelength UVB through it (unlike European glass, which I believe is very low-iron borosilicate) and also, when extruded into tubes, creates linear defects, like microscopic spurs inside the tube, which don't get covered evenly by the phosphor. There are therefore thin streaks of glass with no phosphor - you can just see them when you look at these tubes - and UVC can leak out.

Secondly some of the phosphor blends they use, produce un-naturally short-wavelength UVB. This too escapes through the quartz glass.

The result is a lamp which can cause eye problems.

I hope this helps.

Best wishes,

Frances

If anybody out there can point me in the direction of literature from a similar study, I would be delighted.

Thanks again!
-c

PS: I wish I had the time and resources to set up two enclosures side by side, one with compact fluorescent and one with tube fluorescent, both with RFs, in order to determine the real reality of things...
 
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Taylor T.

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