Pyramiding – Solving the Mystery

MichaelaW

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The "coconut oil theory" is not widely accepted by many it seems. But i am seeing more and more examples where it seems to have merit in HELPING.

The issue is keeping new keratin growth, especially in younger, actively growing tortoise, from desiccating and drying too quickly. When the type of keratin that forms tortoise scutes dries out, it becomes very stiff, water resistant and strong. That become a good protective shield for a tortoise. But while the keratin is still forming and thickening at new growth seams, if it dries too quickly, it becomes stiffer and hardens before the seam has fully formed. So we are becoming aware it is important to create an environment for young tortoises where that drying does not occur.

In nature, growth in wetter times and staying buried or covered in leaf litter and deep in grass clumps does this. Young tortoises are rarely ever seen in the wild and very hard to find. The nest the mother dug and the eggshell protected the keratin developing for the embryo tortoise. Once they hatch, most will stay in the moist nest chamber until rain and moisture from above stimulates them to dig up and emerge. But then, they must find cover immediately. Not only for protection from predators, but to protect their develping shells (and themselves) from drying out. They seem like perfect little fully formed tortoises, but in reality, they are still too fragile for the environment they can find themselves in.

I believe we are just learning the extent of this. In captivity, we therefore need to find ways to help them continue that early development and create environments that allow that to happen. This is not just an effort to grow a "perfect" looking tortoise. That is what we see on the outside. But the drying is doing more than pyramiding the shell. It is also effecting the formation of the organs and functions of the tortoise. So for me, seeing how well their shell is developing gives me insight into how well the entire tortoise is being allowed to develop. Their entire structure and lifestyle has developed to preserve moisture. Until they are more fully formed, they must be much better about protecting themselves. Once their shell, and their organs and metabolism has grown to a more resistant level, they are much better equipped to be "out and about". I think this realization is helping us understand why we see so many baby tortoise simply "fail to thrive".

We can therefore raise the humidity in their enclosures. This helps keep the tortoise from desiccating. Not just the shell, but the entire tortoise. Same with daily soaking and humid hides or plenty of humid cover.

SO.. now to your question directly - Coconut oil may indeed help keep a tortoise's shell growing better as it does seem it should keep the new keratin from drying excessively and retain moisture. So in an effort to grow a pretty, perfect looking tortoise, it may have great added value. However, we must still be sure the inside of the tortoise is not drying excessively. So this could be a misleading "solution" if it ever is seen as a substitute for humidity. I don't want to just grow a nice looking tortoise. I want the whole tortoise allowed to grow properly during those early growing years. Coconut oil applied once or twice a week as a moisturizing agent for the shell would not interfere with and certainly should not replace the bath. Moisture is not absorbed through the shell. We are trying to keep the new growth seams from drying out and losing moisture. But we are also trying to allow the tortoise to drink and soak and absorb water through skin contact in the bath. The same with humidity in the enclosure. The shell, the skin, the eyes, the insides of the lungs as it breathes - everything needs moisture. Not just the shell.

My interest in pyramiding is not to grow a perfect looking tortoise. My interest in pyramiding is because the way the shell grows is our visible sign we can take note of on how the ENTIRE tortoise is growing - inside and out.
Great points! In reality I believe the goal should be to produce a healthy tortoise using the correct environmental conditions, as opposed to remedying the outward visible appearance using a topical substance like oils.
 

domalle

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What species are you referring to here, and what growth rates did you see during these indoor dry times? Did they do most of their growing in the more humid outdoor conditions?


The time outside in fresh air and natural sunlight compensated for the drier winter months. Growth was steady and even. Most occurred, or at least was most observed, during winter downtime 'rest' periods.

Here is a sample specimen, raised here on a majority fruit diet, no supplemental lighting, five month summer outdoors. No daily soaks, spray til they drip culture, or artificial closed chamber.
 

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domalle

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The "coconut oil theory" is not widely accepted by many it seems. But i am seeing more and more examples where it seems to have merit in HELPING.

The issue is keeping new keratin growth, especially in younger, actively growing tortoise, from desiccating and drying too quickly. When the type of keratin that forms tortoise scutes dries out, it becomes very stiff, water resistant and strong. That become a good protective shield for a tortoise. But while the keratin is still forming and thickening at new growth seams, if it dries too quickly, it becomes stiffer and hardens before the seam has fully formed. So we are becoming aware it is important to create an environment for young tortoises where that drying does not occur.

In nature, growth in wetter times and staying buried or covered in leaf litter and deep in grass clumps does this. Young tortoises are rarely ever seen in the wild and very hard to find. The nest the mother dug and the eggshell protected the keratin developing for the embryo tortoise. Once they hatch, most will stay in the moist nest chamber until rain and moisture from above stimulates them to dig up and emerge. But then, they must find cover immediately. Not only for protection from predators, but to protect their develping shells (and themselves) from drying out. They seem like perfect little fully formed tortoises, but in reality, they are still too fragile for the environment they can find themselves in.

I believe we are just learning the extent of this. In captivity, we therefore need to find ways to help them continue that early development and create environments that allow that to happen. This is not just an effort to grow a "perfect" looking tortoise. That is what we see on the outside. But the drying is doing more than pyramiding the shell. It is also effecting the formation of the organs and functions of the tortoise. So for me, seeing how well their shell is developing gives me insight into how well the entire tortoise is being allowed to develop. Their entire structure and lifestyle has developed to preserve moisture. Until they are more fully formed, they must be much better about protecting themselves. Once their shell, and their organs and metabolism has grown to a more resistant level, they are much better equipped to be "out and about". I think this realization is helping us understand why we see so many baby tortoise simply "fail to thrive".

We can therefore raise the humidity in their enclosures. This helps keep the tortoise from desiccating. Not just the shell, but the entire tortoise. Same with daily soaking and humid hides or plenty of humid cover.

SO.. now to your question directly - Coconut oil may indeed help keep a tortoise's shell growing better as it does seem it should keep the new keratin from drying excessively and retain moisture. So in an effort to grow a pretty, perfect looking tortoise, it may have great added value. However, we must still be sure the inside of the tortoise is not drying excessively. So this could be a misleading "solution" if it ever is seen as a substitute for humidity. I don't want to just grow a nice looking tortoise. I want the whole tortoise allowed to grow properly during those early growing years. Coconut oil applied once or twice a week as a moisturizing agent for the shell would not interfere with and certainly should not replace the bath. Moisture is not absorbed through the shell. We are trying to keep the new growth seams from drying out and losing moisture. But we are also trying to allow the tortoise to drink and soak and absorb water through skin contact in the bath. The same with humidity in the enclosure. The shell, the skin, the eyes, the insides of the lungs as it breathes - everything needs moisture. Not just the shell.

My interest in pyramiding is not to grow a perfect looking tortoise. My interest in pyramiding is because the way the shell grows is our visible sign we can take note of on how the ENTIRE tortoise is growing - inside and out.


The reclusive nature and cryptic behavior of tortoise babies during their most vulnerable phase has been long recognized. Utilization of humid microclimates by burrowing into soil level litter, grass tussocks and leaf debris as a strategy to avoid predation and dessication has likewise been well documented.

Not my point that we should not aspire to produce healthy, well-formed animals and provide optimal conditions during early stages of development. Of course we should. Every keeper has an obligation to provide the best care and optimum state of overall health for the animals they steward.

A well-formed shell is a reliable indicator of good culture and overall health, of which hydration is an integral part.

Your work and thought on the molecular underpinnings and effect of hydration on shell formation are impressive. But dismissing all other possible contributing factors suggests the matter settled, declares the subject closed, and cuts off further investigation, discussion and dialogue. (If that were even possible, given pyramiding as a topic seems never ending).

I much admire my friend @Anyfoot for his earnest and methodical search for answers to his many questions. But I do not like to see him driven to distraction in the process and hope he will be able to relax and sit back, enjoy and appreciate his great many successes to date.
 

Anyfoot

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Any idea why redfoots seem to grow off the areola with super smoothness before the obvious growth rings kick in?
Do sears and sullies grow the same?

@mtdavis254817 I stole your photo. Hope you don’t mind. He’s a perfect example.
EBC79CB2-CA97-477A-9DB4-67F4DB158483.jpeg
 

Markw84

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@Anyfoot Craig:

From my observations, it seems to me that ridges are created by STOPS in growth. When I have nice consistent growth, I then see the smoothest and less defined ridges forming. When I see a bigger ridge formed, I can look back at the records and see a tortoise that went through a slow/no growth period. That can be seasonal, sickness, parasite load, period of higher stress (change in enclosure) etc, etc. When I have rapid, consistent growth, I will see a smooth section of keratin laid down.

My thinking is that as the bone grows, the keratin fills in the gaps. The keratin growth that has been stimulated continues as it thickens the scute to it's "normal" thickness over a short time. That keratin production is concentrated at the expanding seam, but is also thickening the new keratin behind. When bone growth stops while that is in process, the keratin growth seems to continue as the thickening is still occurring. However, with no new seam expansion, the very edge of that seam, seems to then thicken. When bone growth later continues, there is a ridge left behind. You can even see the results of this process in the underlying bone as these thickened edges also leave corresponding grooves in the bone.

That first growth period of a hatchling does not have that ridge as it is the stopping of previous growth that seems to create ridges. Whenever I have a hatchling that undergoes a nice consistant growth period from the very start, I see the smooth scute you are showing in the picture above.

I believe that is why tortoise that live in areas with a "feast or famine" type of climate/environment and have to go through hibernation / aestivation in lean times, yet have times where food is plentiful, are the tortoises we see with the most defined annual ridges.
 

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When a tortoises entire scute lifts off. How does it manage to grow back?
I don't know. I have only seen this a few times where I saw a progression of growth. Both times, a new layer of bone/epithelial layer/keratin grew back UNDER the exposed bone!! Eventually the old bone dries and breaks away. With just a very small area of injury the keratin grows at the edges and fills in. Interestingly, with aquatic turtles, a new layer of keratin grows back over the exposed bone. Not as pretty as the original scute, but it does form a new scute. But, keep in mind, aquatic turtles keratin grows differently in that it grows under the entire scute as opposed to tortoises where almost all keratin growth is only at growth seams.
 

Anyfoot

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Do you think that it’s possible for the same species to have different thicknesses of keratin?

If so could this be playing a role in smoothness variation between a group, even when clutch mates.
So for example, We keep a group at 80% and all the torts with the thinnest keratin grow smooth and all the torts with thicker keratin grow bumpy because 80% doesn’t quite cut it for thicker keratin. But if we’d had them at 99% all torts may have grown smooth.
 

itty06

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Can you cure a leopard tortoise who is 7 months old if it's showing signs of pyramiding?
 

wellington

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Can you cure a leopard tortoise who is 7 months old if it's showing signs of pyramiding?
I believe I answered your thread about this. You can stop it from getting worse. Yes, a 7 month old can be helped. Raise it in a closed chamber until it's at least 2 years with the high humidity and you will stop it from getting worse. As it ages the pyramiding will start too appear less.
 

Salspi

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@Anyfoot Craig:

From my observations, it seems to me that ridges are created by STOPS in growth. When I have nice consistent growth, I then see the smoothest and less defined ridges forming. When I see a bigger ridge formed, I can look back at the records and see a tortoise that went through a slow/no growth period. That can be seasonal, sickness, parasite load, period of higher stress (change in enclosure) etc, etc. When I have rapid, consistent growth, I will see a smooth section of keratin laid down.

My thinking is that as the bone grows, the keratin fills in the gaps. The keratin growth that has been stimulated continues as it thickens the scute to it's "normal" thickness over a short time. That keratin production is concentrated at the expanding seam, but is also thickening the new keratin behind. When bone growth stops while that is in process, the keratin growth seems to continue as the thickening is still occurring. However, with no new seam expansion, the very edge of that seam, seems to then thicken. When bone growth later continues, there is a ridge left behind. You can even see the results of this process in the underlying bone as these thickened edges also leave corresponding grooves in the bone.

That first growth period of a hatchling does not have that ridge as it is the stopping of previous growth that seems to create ridges. Whenever I have a hatchling that undergoes a nice consistant growth period from the very start, I see the smooth scute you are showing in the picture above.

I believe that is why tortoise that live in areas with a "feast or famine" type of climate/environment and have to go through hibernation / aestivation in lean times, yet have times where food is plentiful, are the tortoises we see with the most defined annual ridges.

Excellent info Mark... Thank you very much!
 

Anyfoot

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Hello Mark.

The one thing that is puzzling me about this external hydration theory is, Why does soaking having such a good impact?
When soaking we are not hydrating the carapace, So it’s more like an internal hydration method. I know some breeders that don’t care about humidity, they don’t even have a water dish in the enclosure, but they religiously soak daily and produce smooth tortoises.
 

Markw84

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Hi, Craig. Been a while since we exchanged ideas! Hope things are going well. I follow your radiateds' progress with great interest.

My belief is that it is the hydroscopic properties of keratin that make soaking a beneficial step in reducing pyramiding. Although the tortoise is not fully immersed, I can't imagine anyone soaking their tortoise where they don't also wet the entire tortoise and clean it a few times during the soak. That would be enough to allow the keratin to absorb enough water molecules to swell a bit and stay more pliable. Drying out that moisture would take more than the simple drying you would see as the shell dries off and appears "dry". I believe it is a more involved process to bake the keratin to where it looses too much moisture and stiffens prematurely. That is where too intense IR could come into play and dry this too quickly. So if we have a daily bath where the keratin can rehydrate, and lighting and heat (and hides) where the tortoise is not "baked" that should make a huge difference. That also goes back to the value of misting the carapace regularly, Which also would make a difference.

With my sulcatas, I certainly noticed a substantial difference over the years when I would program the sprinklers to wet everything down in their enclosure a few times a day. Combined with ample plant cover to rest beneath, I saw this as the biggest improvement I saw in pyramiding in the years prior to my stumbling upon Tom's pyramiding experiment and humidity.
 

Anyfoot

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Hi, Craig. Been a while since we exchanged ideas! Hope things are going well. I follow your radiateds' progress with great interest.

My belief is that it is the hydroscopic properties of keratin that make soaking a beneficial step in reducing pyramiding. Although the tortoise is not fully immersed, I can't imagine anyone soaking their tortoise where they don't also wet the entire tortoise and clean it a few times during the soak. That would be enough to allow the keratin to absorb enough water molecules to swell a bit and stay more pliable. Drying out that moisture would take more than the simple drying you would see as the shell dries off and appears "dry". I believe it is a more involved process to bake the keratin to where it looses too much moisture and stiffens prematurely. That is where too intense IR could come into play and dry this too quickly. So if we have a daily bath where the keratin can rehydrate, and lighting and heat (and hides) where the tortoise is not "baked" that should make a huge difference. That also goes back to the value of misting the carapace regularly, Which also would make a difference.

With my sulcatas, I certainly noticed a substantial difference over the years when I would program the sprinklers to wet everything down in their enclosure a few times a day. Combined with ample plant cover to rest beneath, I saw this as the biggest improvement I saw in pyramiding in the years prior to my stumbling upon Tom's pyramiding experiment and humidity.

My next question you have just touched on.

Spraying the carapace.

If you kept a tort in a dry climate, no soaks and had a basking spot, but sprayed a few times a day, would it help smooth growth.
I don’t think it would.
To get our finger nails to go supple in water they have to be submerged for some time. Putting your fingernails in water for 30 seconds does nothing. Soak them for 15mins and they become supple. (I’m assuming water temp plays a role too).
So there must be a balance between hydration and basking.

Thoughts.
 

Markw84

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My next question you have just touched on.

Spraying the carapace.

If you kept a tort in a dry climate, no soaks and had a basking spot, but sprayed a few times a day, would it help smooth growth.
I don’t think it would.
To get our finger nails to go supple in water they have to be submerged for some time. Putting your fingernails in water for 30 seconds does nothing. Soak them for 15mins and they become supple. (I’m assuming water temp plays a role too).
So there must be a balance between hydration and basking.

Thoughts.
A few thoughts...

I think it would help. would it be enough?? Don't know but probably not! - depending upon the lighting/heating/hides provided.

We are talking about NEW keratin, not fully formed keratin. The hydroscopic properties of the keratin changes dramatically as it matures. Your fingernails are mature keratin. The new keratin is beneath the cuticles and protected! That is part of the issue I saw in my original quandaries. Most all keratin structure in nature develop protected, except tortoises. Hair follicles beneath the skin, fingernails by cuticle, feathers by a protective sheath, horns forming beneath the skin before emerging, etc, etc. All richly hydrated by surrounding tissue and blood supply as it forms and then hardens. But once a tortoise hatches, the new keratin forming as the shell grows is directly exposed to the environment. New keratin needs moisture and needs to stay hydrated long enough, in that new stage - allowing it to swell and develop its thickness before hardening and becoming more resistant. Young tortoises hide and stay buried in mud, puddles, wet dirt, roots of plants, etc. - not just to hide from predators, but to keep in an environment to allow this growth. They can't just go from egg to the harsh environment. There needs a transitional stage. That's what drives me crazy when people talk about emulating the climate from which they "naturally come". They themselves are expert at avoiding that climate!!

Absolutely a balance. My guess is that a young growing tortoise spends very little time actually basking. They thrive and grow in times of the year where ground temps and daily temps are high enough for maintaining proper metabolic body temps. I bet their UV exposure is indirect mostly. Cryptic basking in partial shade edges. Learning how to balance hydration and lighting/basking/proper artificial heat is key.
 

Anyfoot

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A few thoughts...

I think it would help. would it be enough?? Don't know but probably not! - depending upon the lighting/heating/hides provided.

We are talking about NEW keratin, not fully formed keratin. The hydroscopic properties of the keratin changes dramatically as it matures. Your fingernails are mature keratin. The new keratin is beneath the cuticles and protected! That is part of the issue I saw in my original quandaries. Most all keratin structure in nature develop protected, except tortoises. Hair follicles beneath the skin, fingernails by cuticle, feathers by a protective sheath, horns forming beneath the skin before emerging, etc, etc. All richly hydrated by surrounding tissue and blood supply as it forms and then hardens. But once a tortoise hatches, the new keratin forming as the shell grows is directly exposed to the environment. New keratin needs moisture and needs to stay hydrated long enough, in that new stage - allowing it to swell and develop its thickness before hardening and becoming more resistant. Young tortoises hide and stay buried in mud, puddles, wet dirt, roots of plants, etc. - not just to hide from predators, but to keep in an environment to allow this growth. They can't just go from egg to the harsh environment. There needs a transitional stage. That's what drives me crazy when people talk about emulating the climate from which they "naturally come". They themselves are expert at avoiding that climate!!

Absolutely a balance. My guess is that a young growing tortoise spends very little time actually basking. They thrive and grow in times of the year where ground temps and daily temps are high enough for maintaining proper metabolic body temps. I bet their UV exposure is indirect mostly. Cryptic basking in partial shade edges. Learning how to balance hydration and lighting/basking/proper artificial heat is key.
Thanks Mark.
I forgot I was comparing mature fingernail keratin to immature keratin of the carapace. Should have realised because if you push two scutes hard enough towards each other you can see the new white keratin flex at the scute borders.
That puts that thought process to bed.

I agree with everything else you said, I raise my babies on that very principle, no basking and plenty of hydration.
 

Markw84

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Thanks Mark.
I forgot I was comparing mature fingernail keratin to immature keratin of the carapace. Should have realised because if you push two scutes hard enough towards each other you can see the new white keratin flex at the scute borders.
That puts that thought process to bed.

I agree with everything else you said, I raise my babies on that very principle, no basking and plenty of hydration.
I do not believe "no basking" can be made as a blanket statement for all species. I know sulcatas and leopards in particular, seem to "need" basking to get them going. Not sure if it is just thermo-regulation related. It may well be a photo stimulus to them. I've seem them want to bask when I know their body temps are very high. So - balance - is the key not just 'no basking'. I've not seen this as much with my stars. They don't seem to need to bask like the suclatas and leopards, although they still will, just not as much and sometimes they don't at all.
 

Anyfoot

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I do not believe "no basking" can be made as a blanket statement for all species. I know sulcatas and leopards in particular, seem to "need" basking to get them going. Not sure if it is just thermo-regulation related. It may well be a photo stimulus to them. I've seem them want to bask when I know their body temps are very high. So - balance - is the key not just 'no basking'. I've not seen this as much with my stars. They don't seem to need to bask like the suclatas and leopards, although they still will, just not as much and sometimes they don't at all.
Not saying your wrong and some species may bask as babies. But I’m not convinced yet.

My redfoots always try and bask. Remember I accidentally created a basking spot through the window. I soaked them daily, sprayed them twice a day and the humidity is always above 80%, they have pyramiding. They used to pile up trying to get to the small basking area. I’ll never know how long per day they basked because I was at work, I’ll bet it was all day.
I forget the exact readings(it’s on here somewhere). But they were something like 40c and 30% in that small basking area that the window created. Not good for babies. But yet they seeked that area out.
I think it’s instinct for all species of torts to bask, but nature keeps them at bay as babies. The ones that bask risk death. They will learn that and be weary of going out in the open when a near death experience happens. Maybe they have to risk it for minimal time to get vitamin D.
In captivity there is no fear, they learn and lay out in the open with nothing to worry about. Mine are all tame now. They come to me with no fear, imagine doing that with an animal in the wild.

Totally of topic but related to everything we talk about. Have you ever read in depth about D2? What’s your knowledge on this vitamin.
 

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