Ethical Dilemma Question

G-stars

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Hello to everyone,

I would like to know everyone’s opinion on this subject matter from breeder(seller) to owner(buyer). So let’s cut to the chase, here’s the dilema. I recently sold some tortoises about a month ago, before I sold them this particular person (not sure if he’s a member here or not) had the choice of which 3 tortoises he wanted out of 12. The 3 I sent pictures of to him were ready to ship, the other 9 I hadn’t deemed ready to ship yet. But regardless I sent him pictures of the other 9 as well if he wanted to wait a bit longer.

He decided he liked the 3 older ones. So all went well, I shipped them, they arrived well. Everything was okay and still is okay health wise. Today that person texts me and states that he doesn’t trust me and I didn’t take clear pictures. Apparently almost a month later and several pictures after he saw that one had extra scutes. He’s very upset about it and I apologized for not disclosing it. I quite honestly was not trying to sneak in a “B grade tortoise” as he calls it.

My question to y’all is, should I have disclosed it from the beginning or let the pictures do the talking? I mean he had 12 to choose from, only 2 had extra scutes out of the 12.

Here’s one of the pictures I sent that clearly shows that the top one has extra scutes.
5289BC0E-EDBE-4084-A34E-9BF9E253B879.jpeg


@Tom @Markw84 @Kapidolo Farms
 

Markw84

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Gus

Truly like you and enjoy the discussions we've had over the last few years. With that preamble, I do have to say the extra scutes are not clear in the picture and I had to zoom in and look for seams to finally see it in the right costals. I believe in this case I can see the buyers surprise and how it could certainly been missed originally.

I do believe it wise to always point out any possible situation with a tortoise I'm selling. I will point out when they pick - "this one is a little more bumpy than the others as we see some develop this a bit while other remain totally smooth", or " this one has an extra small scute by the 4th vertebral. Totally cosemetic, and some prefer aberrant scutes, and this one does have that extra scute" etc, etc. Certainly in selling sulcatas more so than the $$$ burmese, I find many folks buying a tortoise don't really have the overall knowledge to know what they are looking at when making their first purchase.

So, my answer to your question is yes, you should have disclosed it and made it clear. And in this case, I can see how it would have been totally unkown to the buyer. I would offer a replacement if it were me.
 

method89

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as a buyer, I think it should be disclosed. I've seen it disclosed in other ads and generally there is a small deduct in the price. That said, I actually like extra scute torts, makes them unique.
 

Yvonne G

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His loss. Aberrant scutes are a desired trait here!

I must admit, not being all that familiar with this species and with that wild and colorful pattern, I can't see the extra scute.
 

Maro2Bear

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I kind of agree with @Markw84 , but also, since you sent photos that are pretty clear, i see your point as well. What does the buyer want? A discount or a different tortoise? Either way, id make it right (fir the customer) and chalk it up to next time you will be more cautious.

Nice looking babies!
 

SPILL

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I'd be upset to receive a tortoise with any imperfections without knowing ahead of time but can't imagine waiting a month to bring it to the seller's attention. I do believe your offer of a replacement makes it right.
 

zovick

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Hello to everyone,

I would like to know everyone’s opinion on this subject matter from breeder(seller) to owner(buyer). So let’s cut to the chase, here’s the dilema. I recently sold some tortoises about a month ago, before I sold them this particular person (not sure if he’s a member here or not) had the choice of which 3 tortoises he wanted out of 12. The 3 I sent pictures of to him were ready to ship, the other 9 I hadn’t deemed ready to ship yet. But regardless I sent him pictures of the other 9 as well if he wanted to wait a bit longer.

He decided he liked the 3 older ones. So all went well, I shipped them, they arrived well. Everything was okay and still is okay health wise. Today that person texts me and states that he doesn’t trust me and I didn’t take clear pictures. Apparently almost a month later and several pictures after he saw that one had extra scutes. He’s very upset about it and I apologized for not disclosing it. I quite honestly was not trying to sneak in a “B grade tortoise” as he calls it.

My question to y’all is, should I have disclosed it from the beginning or let the pictures do the talking? I mean he had 12 to choose from, only 2 had extra scutes out of the 12.

Here’s one of the pictures I sent that clearly shows that the top one has extra scutes.
View attachment 297763


@Tom @Markw84 @Kapidolo Farms
Maybe it is because I am a health care provider and have to disclose all the potential problems with any surgical procedures with my patients before performing them, but I always made certain to point out to potential buyers those tortoises which had extra or split scutes (or any other abnormal conditions) anytime I sold a tortoise. Buyers are often excited and do not take the time to fully examine every millimeter of the photos of the animals in which they are interested. Not disclosing any abnormalities prevents the buyer from acting with "informed consent" which is legally required in many transactions today.

As an example, look at all the side effects of drugs which are duly (and very hastily and matter-of-factly) enumerated on all ads for drugs today. This is to prevent anyone who takes the drug from suing the drug company by saying they were not informed of a certain deleterious side effect before taking it. The disclaimers on cigarette packages regarding cancer are another example of providing "informed consent" to the smoker and getting the tobacco company off the hook in the event of a law suit from a smoker.

At any rate, it seems you have learned a hard lesson here. I heartily recommend just giving the buyer another tortoise (and don't charge for shipping it to him) AND letting him keep the other one. You want to come off looking like the good guy here, not a greedy person, so this buyer will have nothing about which to complain about you to other potential customers down the road.
 

Markw84

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Quick update. The buyer will be receiving a new hatchling and keeping the other one. Seems like he is happy about the resolution. I have learned my lesson.
Gus

I knew you were that type person and that is why I tried to word my response carefully.

I can add along the lines of Bill's reply, almost all the babies I now sell are by referral or previous buyers coming back. We are always stressing the importance of careful breeder selection in buying a tortoise, and reputation is vital and precious.

Nicely handled!
 

G-stars

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Thank you all for the responses. I was already leaning towards that decision before I posted on here. But it’s always good to hear the opinions/ thoughts of others. I immediately asked the buyer what I could do to make it right and he wanted to exchange the tortoise but shipping was a concern for both of us. The buyer never asked for a free or replacement tortoise. That was my offer to him in order to make it right. I just want to be clear that he was not trying to get a free tortoise out of this.
 

Maro2Bear

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Thank you all for the responses. I was already leaning towards that decision before I posted on here. But it’s always good to hear the opinions/ thoughts of others. I immediately asked the buyer what I could do to make it right and he wanted to exchange the tortoise but shipping was a concern for both of us. The buyer never asked for a free or replacement tortoise. That was my offer to him in order to make it right. I just want to be clear that he was not trying to get a free tortoise out of this.

Nice job & good for you. ?
 

Tom

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This exact thing happened to me when I bought my first platynota back in 2013. One of them had a subtle, hidden, scute abnormality and another had a divided scute. I also don't notice it for the first month or two. The breeder I purchased from was firm on his price and offered no discounts, even for volume purchase. I paid full top dollar, and I expected perfect specimens. When I brought this to his a attention he was annoyed with me and tried to make it seem like no big deal. He refunded me $50 on a $4000 dollar purchase. I wasn't happy, and am still not happy with that resolution, but I do have a nice group of healthy tortoises in the end, so I've let it lie.

I make it a point to disclose everything, and I offer as many pics as they want. I make it clear that once the tortoise leaves my facility, it cannot come back under any circumstances due to quarantine reasons. Having said that, I'm not sure I would have noticed any issue in the pics you sent. I might not have ever noticed that.

I think your resolution was very generous.
 
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