Creative ways of giving an apartment tortoise more roaming space?

[Mons]

Hi tortoise-loving folks,

I'm looking for advice. (Sorry in advance for the long post.)

I live in a one room apartment with my husband and cat and our Russian tortoise (he's cool with the cat, and she's cool with him; they both fall asleep on my lap occasionally with no trouble). His terrarium is the bare minimum recommended size (4'*2'*1.5' tall) for a Russian tortoise. (He's young and I'm trying to follow herp vet and exotic pet shop recommendations for cage sizing as he grows up. He's a little over 2 years old now.)

There is an empty lot next to my building that at some point (probably going to need to seriously work on this next year) I will try to use for an outdoor pen for him. For now, I'm trying to find other ways of giving him more space to roam safely indoors. I'm also trying to find other things to feed his curiosity.

I saw somewhere online a tortoise parent giving their tortoise a ball, which it pushed around and seemed to enjoy doing, as far as I could tell. There might have been treats in the ball, but I forget now.

I've also seen pics online where some people created a sort of railroad track / passage with shelves for cats that's kind of like something out of Pee-wee's playhouse. Ordinarily, I'd be a little skeptical of these things, but I previously raised a Schneider's skink (a sand-burrowing lizard) for 15 years until he passed, and one thing I came across online that wasn't in any reptile parenting book but which he ended up loving was a hamster wheel to run in. So I think there may be room for creative solutions to helping animals have a more fulfilling life indoors.

I have a long hallway, maybe 12'-18' long, as well as maybe 8' of space under a south facing window (fairly warm) that I could try to utilize as an extra space for him to roam around in.

My question is:
A lot of you have raised tortoises for years, even decades. Do you have any suggestions for other sorts of things one could do to give an apartment tortoise more room? (Maybe in line with the above or totally different?)

For some background:
My Russian tortoise is a little over 2 years old now. I purchased him from an exotic pet shop near me when he was a few months old. I think they're well regarded (the East Bay Vivarium in Berkeley, CA). I think that age is typically only allowed to sell to teachers, but I think they knew me a bit because of my pet lizard before. The shop seems to work closely with an exotic herp vet nearby and their former owner bred Russian tortoises in his Southern California home. My little dude came from this guy. I take him to the vet at least once a year.

Aside from a few mistakes I've made (trying to curb early signs of what I think is shell rot with betadine (doc's suggestion over email; got an actual appointment with the vet coming up)), he's been a pretty healthy happy and super curious and friendly little dude.

But he definitely wants more space, as he sometimes tries climbing the sides.

His habitat and food situation:
I have a thermostat set up to keep the cool side cool (daytime's usually at 80, evening is between 70 and 80) and the warm side warm (usually in the 90s), a ceramic heat emitter for a basking spot, and there's a bit of slate in there, two hides, a big ramekin with water, and he gets a varied diet and vitamins, and his substrate was cocosoft coco coir until that got harder to find, so that detail is still being worked out.

If you managed to read through my novel, that is amazing and thank you! Just wanted to try and preemptively address q's I see in other posts, so hopefully this overload of info is helpful.

Thanks for any suggestions you all have!

 

[Srmcclure]

Well, my solution to tortoise apartment living was I gave my torts the whole dining area. We dont eat there because my kid is a messy eater (even at 11 ?) and one of my dogs is a huge opportunist when it comes to food, so we eat in our kitchen lol.

Also, Both of mine have the ball. Its a plastic cat ball. They really don't do much with it but scratch their butt on it lol.

Also, their are some things that may need to be tweaked about his enclosure as well. A terra cotta saucer is a much better water bowl option. Ramekins are hard for torts to use and can sometimes kill them if your not careful... and for basking an incandescent flood bulb is what you want ? che is great for ambient temps, but for basking you want that actual light. I think flickers has a brand that works and I can look that up if your in Cali with the incandescent ban

 

[queen koopa]

Do you have any of the terrarium sides covered? Tortoises have great eye sight and glass terrariums, especially way too small terrariums stress them out in many ways. I would try a larger enclosure with sides he cannot see through. Since space is an issue, maybe a long tortoise table, or a 2 story tortoise table ?? Also taking them out of their enclosure frequently may cause them to pace and climb the perimeter of the enclosure. After a while they can get “used” to switching enclosures like outside and inside, just takes a bit.

 

[Mons]

Well, my solution to tortoise apartment living was I gave my torts the whole dining area.

Also, Both of mine have the ball. Its a plastic cat ball. They really don't do much with it but scratch their butt on it lol.

Haha! Your tortoises sound like they're living the good life. What kind of cat ball? I'm so curious what your setup looks like. Would you mind sharing a pic? Or if you've shared elsewhere in the forums, maybe a link?

A terra cotta saucer is a much better water bowl option. Ramekins are hard for torts to use and can sometimes kill them if your not careful...

I hadn't thought of that. Thanks for mentioning. That's easy enough to switch.

and for basking an incandescent flood bulb is what you want ? che is great for ambient temps, but for basking you want that actual light.

I forget now why we ended up going with the ceramic heat emitter. We have basking bulbs in our supply cabinet. I'll look into those.

Thank you for the tips!

 

[Srmcclure]

Haha! Your tortoises sound like they're living the good life. What kind of cat ball? I'm so curious what your setup looks like. Would you mind sharing a pic? Or if you've shared elsewhere in the forums, maybe a link?



I hadn't thought of that. Thanks for mentioning. That's easy enough to switch.



I forget now why we ended up going with the ceramic heat emitter. We have basking bulbs in our supply cabinet. I'll look into those.

Thank you for the tips!

Here are my setups! I have a SA Leopard and a redfoot

Ignore the temp in the redfoots ^. It dropped after I was doing clean up lol. You can also see her right behind that if you look close enough. She thinks she's sneaky


That one is harder to get a good full pic of, so here it is split in 2. And sorry about the mess in that one, I was cleaning this it and the leopard was getting a soak ? you can also see the cat ball there lol
Each are 3ft x 6ft. Both my setups have radiant heat panels instead of che's incase you wonder where those are lol.



And here is the best thing for basking =)

https://www.petsmart.com/reptile/environmental-control-and-lighting/bulbs-and-lamps/flukers-basking-bulb-5272870.html

Philips 65-Watt Incandescent BR30 Flood Light Bulb Soft White (2700K) (12-Pack) 248872 - The Home Depot

The Philips 65-Watt Incandescent Flood Light Bulb (12-Pack) is designed to fit a variety of home or business lighting needs. These 12 flood lights shine for up to 2000 hours and are dimmable, allowing

www.homedepot.com

I know that 2nd one is a pain to get in cali. Make sure what you have isn't a spot bulb. That hurts our babies eyes and can make pyramiding worse ?

And that heat emitter is perfect for you over all heat, just not basking, but thankfully its an easy fix!

 

[Srmcclure]

You could also make an enclosed chamber for your baby and turn it into a large entertainment center :

This is just a reference pic ?

 

[Mons]

Do you have any of the terrarium sides covered? Tortoises have great eye sight and glass terrariums, especially way too small terrariums stress them out in many ways. I would try a larger enclosure with sides he cannot see through.

We recently upgraded him to a 4'*2'*1.5' terrarium that is solid wood or wood-like material on three sides, and the front is sliding doors made of glass. He seems to enjoy looking out his window. He does it a lot, just kind of props himself up on his hind legs sometimes to see what's going on, or climbs on his log and then looks out his window. He doesn't seem to exhibit any signs of stress when he's doing that. Here's his cage now:



And here's his former cage (3'*2'*1.5'?) with him peeking out:



(Substrate in the pics is aspen shavings which I realize is not usually recommended but I'm currently aiming for softest possible substrate temporarily due to a little bit of shell rot I'm treating; vet advised iodine or betadine and nothing hard, poke-y or sharp until they can see him in person.)

I wonder if for the times when he's restless, if covering the windows would help. What do you think?

Since space is an issue, maybe a long tortoise table, or a 2 story tortoise table ??

A 2 story tortoise table sounds awesome! I look online periodically for tortoise tables or giant tortoise habitats but everything I find ready-made is usually pretty small. It seems like others on here are pretty handy and make their own. I'm guessing I'll need to be too at some point.

Could you share a pic or a link to one of these that you're talking about? Maybe I'm not looking in the right places. Or if you have tips on building, that would be helpful too.

Also taking them out of their enclosure frequently may cause them to pace and climb the perimeter of the enclosure. After a while they can get “used” to switching enclosures like outside and inside, just takes a bit.

I'm sorry, I don't understand what you mean here. Are you saying taking them out frequently is bad or good?

Thank you for all the input!

 

[Mons]

Wow your tortoises' homes are great!! There is so much in there and still so much space. I see your redfoot behind the thermometer. Sneaky indeed!

3'*6'. How tall are they?

Are radiant heat panels the same idea as heat mats, just at a larger scale? Just looked them up. I had no idea this existed! Do you get a certain wattage?

And those last pics: I had to look that up too. Hydroponic grow tents? How does that work?

I read that there are a lot of different houseplants that Russian tortoises can eat. Are your plants in their homes real? Do they eat them?

How do you avoid bugs with such a setup?

Sorry for all the q's. I haven't seen a home like theirs before. Talk about creative! They're awesome.

Er, three more q's:

What purpose do the raised metal grill looking things serve?

What's the white cube on top of the one on the left side of the redfoot's home?

And my dumbest question: where did you get the opaque plastic hides?

This has given me so much to think about! Oh and thank you for the links to the bulbs. I think I might have that Fluker's one. If not, then pretty sure I've seen it at the local pet supply shop.

??

 

[Mons]

This looks neat too!

 

[Tom]

The solution is a popely sized indoor enclosure. 4x8 feet is the minimum. Loose on the floor is a recipe for disaster. It usually ends in sickness, injury or death for the tortoise.

How long have you had the tortoise and how do you know the age? What size was it when you got it? Either length or weight is what I'm asking.

I've never seen shell rot in a Russian. What substrate was he on? Was it wet? Do you have pics of that? Where is the rot? Plastron or carapace?

 

[Srmcclure]

Wow your tortoises' homes are great!! There is so much in there and still so much space. I see your redfoot behind the thermometer. Sneaky indeed!

3'*6'. How tall are they?

Are radiant heat panels the same idea as heat mats, just at a larger scale? Just looked them up. I had no idea this existed! Do you get a certain wattage?

And those last pics: I had to look that up too. Hydroponic grow tents? How does that work?

I read that there are a lot of different houseplants that Russian tortoises can eat. Are your plants in their homes real? Do they eat them?

How do you avoid bugs with such a setup?

Sorry for all the q's. I haven't seen a home like theirs before. Talk about creative! They're awesome.

Er, three more q's:

What purpose do the raised metal grill looking things serve?

What's the white cube on top of the one on the left side of the redfoot's home?

And my dumbest question: where did you get the opaque plastic hides?

This has given me so much to think about! Oh and thank you for the links to the bulbs. I think I might have that Fluker's one. If not, then pretty sure I've seen it at the local pet supply shop.

??

Thanks!! They are 3ft tall as well ?

Radient heat panels work like the che, but there is no major hot spot under it, and I don't burn myself! Win win! I have the 120watt just because all my stuff is on a thermostat and I didn't want to keep buying larger ones when I eventually have to upside. I love them so much more than che's.

With the grow tent. You just flip it on its side, tweak it a bit with liners, etc and it holds heat and humidity amazingly! And I only spend $90 on each one. Plus they come with bars to hang lights and things. Love them! Just have to make a few tweaks.

Some of my plants are real and others I got at hobby lobby when they have their 50% sale. I have pothos and monkey grass that's real and the rest are fake. I had a little tray i used to grow arugula in and they nibbled on that from time to time.

I do get a few gnats, but nothing major. Both those enclosures are bioactive as well. I have pull bugs and springtails in there to help keep messes down.

The raised white grids are for me to put their camera on, which is what that white box is. I can check on them any time I want ? its the wyze cam on amazon

And with the hides, I actually bought those at dollar tree as tubs and cut out the door ? its way cheaper and the plastic is thinner and easy to work with like that. I also get dish trays from Walmart and cut the door into it

And I'm glad!! It can be a pain trying to figure things out! I like to see all kinds of ideas so I can pic and choose what will work for my babies ?

Btw, you baby is so freaking cute!!


Here are my 2

 

[queen koopa]

We recently upgraded him to a 4'*2'*1.5' terrarium that is solid wood or wood-like material on three sides, and the front is sliding doors made of glass. He seems to enjoy looking out his window. He does it a lot, just kind of props himself up on his hind legs sometimes to see what's going on, or climbs on his log and then looks out his window. He doesn't seem to exhibit any signs of stress when he's doing that. Here's his cage now:

View attachment 310545

And here's his former cage (3'*2'*1.5'?) with him peeking out:

View attachment 310546

(Substrate in the pics is aspen shavings which I realize is not usually recommended but I'm currently aiming for softest possible substrate temporarily due to a little bit of shell rot I'm treating; vet advised iodine or betadine and nothing hard, poke-y or sharp until they can see him in person.)

I wonder if for the times when he's restless, if covering the windows would help. What do you think?



A 2 story tortoise table sounds awesome! I look online periodically for tortoise tables or giant tortoise habitats but everything I find ready-made is usually pretty small. It seems like others on here are pretty handy and make their own. I'm guessing I'll need to be too at some point.

Could you share a pic or a link to one of these that you're talking about? Maybe I'm not looking in the right places. Or if you have tips on building, that would be helpful too.



I'm sorry, I don't understand what you mean here. Are you saying taking them out frequently is bad or good?

Thank you for all the input!

I like Srmcclure’s tents.

I do not have any experience with Russian torts sorry to say so no first hand experience with indoor enclosures but I feel a 2 level enclosure is going to have to be custom to your home. Again I don’t know if Russians require closed chamber as adults? Wish you could just add on to your existing terrarium. 1 glass side is not bad, and yeah you could cover it if he’s going wild scratching at it. pinterest seemed to come up with quite a few ideas.
With respects to taking them frequently from their enclosure, they are smart and remember that there is another world outside their enclosure and they try to get to it! Some keepers have 2 enclosures, and outside and an inside, eventually the tort will get used to the change.

 

[Blackdog1714]

Elevate your bed and use the space underneath for the enclosure

 

[queen koopa]

Elevate your bed and use the space underneath for the enclosure

Oww good idea

 

[Srmcclure]

Elevate your bed and use the space underneath for the enclosure

I've seen a few of those! Pretty cool!

 

[Mons]

The solution is a properly sized indoor enclosure. 4x8 feet is the minimum.

Okay.

Loose on the floor is a recipe for disaster. It usually ends in sickness, injury or death for the tortoise.

We don't let him loose on the floor. He stays in our lap or walks on the couch as we watch him. If he is outside his cage, we are right there keeping a close eye.

Just so I understand, loose on the floor is a recipe for disaster because of what he might eat off the floor? Or risk of being stepped on? Or other pets? I tried putting him on our rug once which he loved walking around on but he also wanted to eat the rug (I could see that being dangerous, so no more of that). The couch is some smooth fabric, like fake leather I think. He doesn't try to eat that. That and our laps seems safe enough. And I think my husband might also let him walk on our bed sometimes. I don't do that myself but I would think the danger there is Shelly falling off but my husband is right there making sure that doesn't happen which in that case seems okay. Is it not?

When I said, "I'm trying to find other ways of giving him more space to roam safely indoors," this is ideally in some kind of additional set up utilizing what space I can find in our apartment, hence asking for ideas from the community and input on what others do.

How long have you had the tortoise and how do you know the age?

We bought him in July of 2018. They told us he was born a few months before at the home of their former shop owner in southern California. We took him to the herpetology specialist vet for a baseline checkup and more advice on how to properly raise him. I think he confirmed the tortoise's age during that checkup. Gender reveal came later. Heh

What size was it when you got it? Either length or weight is what I'm asking.

I forget the specifics. 3 or 4 inches long, and I think his weight was 40 grams... Here are pics from 2018 of him at the pet store:

I've never seen shell rot in a Russian. What substrate was he on? Was it wet? Do you have pics of that? Where is the rot? Plastron or carapace?

Dry substrate. Plastron. Sure, I can share the pics I sent to the vet.




The vet (when we first got Shelly) advised specifically CocoSoft coco coir medium coarse chips. Succeeded in finding that online (Carib Sea brand) for most of these first two years. Then they stopped selling it. Been trying to find similar, asked for advice here too, have since had him on orchid bark, reptibark (first time dealing with mites, baking the substrate helped), and right now he is on aspen shavings.

Until recently, I would soak him for thirty minutes a day every day. Now it's every other day or every three days.

Since his possible shell rot, a different vet advised once a week soaks while I treat his spots with betadine until my appointment in December (vets over here are booked really far out right now).

I found an old post on here from October 2018 mentioning these same spots, but I never got a response from the community. He goes to the vet at least once a year though, so his original vet would have seen them but I don't remember any conversation about that... so maybe they are not shell rot. Current vet was guessing based on pics I sent her over email and what I told her. It'll be good to confirm one way or the other when we see her.

Post from 2018 has pics: https://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/question-about-plastron-peeling.170475/

 

[Blackdog1714]

Okay.



We don't let him loose on the floor. He stays in our lap or walks on the couch as we watch him. If he is outside his cage, we are right there keeping a close eye.

Just so I understand, loose on the floor is a recipe for disaster because of what he might eat off the floor? Or risk of being stepped on? Or other pets? I tried putting him on our rug once which he loved walking around on but he also wanted to eat the rug (I could see that being dangerous, so no more of that). The couch is some smooth fabric, like fake leather I think. He doesn't try to eat that. That and our laps seems safe enough. And I think my husband might also let him walk on our bed sometimes. I don't do that myself but I would think the danger there is Shelly falling off but my husband is right there making sure that doesn't happen which in that case seems okay. Is it not?

When I said, "I'm trying to find other ways of giving him more space to roam safely indoors," this is ideally in some kind of additional set up utilizing what space I can find in our apartment, hence asking for ideas from the community and input on what others do.



We bought him in July of 2018. They told us he was born a few months before at the home of their former shop owner in southern California. We took him to the herpetology specialist vet for a baseline checkup and more advice on how to properly raise him. I think he confirmed the tortoise's age during that checkup. Gender reveal came later. Heh



I forget the specifics. 3 or 4 inches long, and I think his weight was 40 grams... Here are pics from 2018 of him at the pet store:

View attachment 310653
View attachment 310654
View attachment 310655



Dry substrate. Plastron. Sure, I can share the pics I sent to the vet.

View attachment 310657
View attachment 310658
View attachment 310659
The vet (when we first got Shelly) advised specifically CocoSoft coco coir medium coarse chips. Succeeded in finding that online (Carib Sea brand) for most of these first two years. Then they stopped selling it. Been trying to find similar, asked for advice here too, have since had him on orchid bark, reptibark (first time dealing with mites, baking the substrate helped), and right now he is on aspen shavings.

Until recently, I would soak him for thirty minutes a day every day. Now it's every other day or every three days.

Since his possible shell rot, a different vet advised once a week soaks while I treat his spots with betadine until my appointment in December (vets over here are booked really far out right now).

I found an old post on here from October 2018 mentioning these same spots, but I never got a response from the community. He goes to the vet at least once a year though, so his original vet would have seen them but I don't remember any conversation about that... so maybe they are not shell rot. Current vet was guessing based on pics I sent her over email and what I told her. It'll be good to confirm one way or the other when we see her.

Post from 2018 has pics: https://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/question-about-plastron-peeling.170475/

Cypress mulch is a good substrate with fine fir bark being the best. Aspen shavings are no good. To treat the rot apply athletes foot cream- store brands are fine. Be careful of the vet visits since many are not knowledgeable enough or are working off old info. Vitamin shots are unnecessary and can damage the area injected. Shell rot does not require a vet visit especially a minor case that yours may be. It also cod be from climbing over something rough which Russians love to do. Either way $2 worth of cream won’t hurt. Best of luck

 

[Mons]

View attachment 310567View attachment 310569
Here are my 2

By the way, your tortoises are beautiful!!! Such cute faces! How old are they?

 

[Srmcclure]

By the way, your tortoises are beautiful!!! Such cute faces! How old are they?

Oh thank you so much!! Ghido the leopard is 10 months now and chi chi the redfoot is about 2 ? she was adopted so I'm not 100% sure

 

[Mons]

Cypress mulch is a good substrate with fine fir bark being the best. Aspen shavings are no good.

Thank you for the suggestions! Yeah, I know pine and aspen shavings are no good. Just needed something super soft and not moist until the vet sees him.

Be careful of the vet visits since many are not knowledgeable enough or are working off old info. Vitamin shots are unnecessary and can damage the area injected.

The guy I took him to for the first year and a half is an expert reptile vet, has written for Reptiles magazine, and I think is president of the local Bay Area Herpetological Society club over here. He's been ill all year though so the other reptile expert is a younger vet who has done a lot of research and treatment of tortoises. I think they're my best and maybe only options in the bay area.

He recommended coco soft coco coir and she recommended (under normal situations) orchid bark as an alternative. The shavings are definitely very temporary.

I don't think I mentioned vitamin shots... I do dust his food (very) lightly with repashy "calcium plus" vitamin powder occasionally and the rest of the time put a teeny bit of liquid calcium in his water dish since he tends to not eat when there's vitamin powder on his food.

To treat the rot apply athletes foot cream- store brands are fine. Shell rot does not require a vet visit especially a minor case that yours may be. It also cod be from climbing over something rough which Russians love to do. Either way $2 worth of cream won’t hurt. Best of luck

I'd be worried I'd mess that up somehow... Definitely feel more comfortable spending extra bucks on a vet visit even if it doesn't end up being necessary just to be on the safe side.

I do think it is the result of him climbing over something rough in his cage. Removed all possible culprits for the time being.

But I am really glad this forum exists for the interim and just getting to read all of the experience and ideas everyone has in here. It's fascinating.