Substrate built up into my tortoises leg cavity

Franco F

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Hi All,

A while back I posted about weird behavior my tortoise was experiencing with his diet and pooping habits. He was barely eating for months and would rarely poop. I brought him to the vet because this behavior was really really starting to worry me that he was experiencing some sort of renal failure. It turns out, he had a large collection of dirt packed into his leg cavity that basically calcified into like a rock.

Honestly, I guess I never really thought to pull his legs back and check to see inside his leg cavity, but the vet said this was preventing him from pooping or wanting to eat because it was putting a stress on his organs. As soon as the vet cleaned it out, he instantly pooped out a log and became very hyper, like he used to be.

The vet is recommending that I get rid of substrate all together to prevent this from happening again, and using slate with different areas of sphagnum moss for burrowing. I was hoping to get some opinions on this. This whole thing has been really stressful and I’m afraid that if I leave the substrate, this could happen again.

He doesn’t have any permanent damage to his organs, but they were shifting to the other side of his body. The vet can’t give me any guarantee, but we hope that they will shift back into place over time.
 

Tom

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Hi All,

A while back I posted about weird behavior my tortoise was experiencing with his diet and pooping habits. He was barely eating for months and would rarely poop. I brought him to the vet because this behavior was really really starting to worry me that he was experiencing some sort of renal failure. It turns out, he had a large collection of dirt packed into his leg cavity that basically calcified into like a rock.

Honestly, I guess I never really thought to pull his legs back and check to see inside his leg cavity, but the vet said this was preventing him from pooping or wanting to eat because it was putting a stress on his organs. As soon as the vet cleaned it out, he instantly pooped out a log and became very hyper, like he used to be.

The vet is recommending that I get rid of substrate all together to prevent this from happening again, and using slate with different areas of sphagnum moss for burrowing. I was hoping to get some opinions on this. This whole thing has been really stressful and I’m afraid that if I leave the substrate, this could happen again.

He doesn’t have any permanent damage to his organs, but they were shifting to the other side of his body. The vet can’t give me any guarantee, but we hope that they will shift back into place over time.
What substrate were you using? How often did you soak your tortoise?

Moss will be eaten and can cause impaction. It has no place in a tortoise enclosure.

I've raised 1000's of tortoises, every single one of them with substrate, and never had this problem. Something else is going on. There is no need to remove the substrate, as long as you are using the right type, and doing the right things.
 

Franco F

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What substrate were you using? How often did you soak your tortoise?

Moss will be eaten and can cause impaction. It has no place in a tortoise enclosure.

I've raised 1000's of tortoises, every single one of them with substrate, and never had this problem. Something else is going on. There is no need to remove the substrate, as long as you are using the right type, and doing the right things.

I’ve only used coconut coir since he was a hatchling. I soak him minimum 5 times a week. Maybe I have to just really really pack the coconut coir down
 

Maggie3fan

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2 questions...how big is this tort? Do you not soak him or give him a place to soak? Meaning no disrespect, but ...
 

Franco F

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2 questions...how big is this tort? Do you not soak him or give him a place to soak? Meaning no disrespect, but ...
It’s okay I don’t feel disrespected. I soak him at least 5 times a week, as I’ve done since he hatched. He’s about 6 inches long. The dirt was so calcified and tucked under his keg cavity that soaking never cleared it out, and I didn’t recognize that
 

Tom

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It’s okay I don’t feel disrespected. I soak him at least 5 times a week, as I’ve done since he hatched. He’s about 6 inches long. The dirt was so calcified and tucked under his keg cavity that soaking never cleared it out, and I didn’t recognize that
First and foremost, I'm just really glad you discovered the problem and the tortoise is okay now. I have never seen or heard of this, so thank you for sharing this with the group. It might help someone else in the future.
 

Franco F

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First and foremost, I'm just really glad you discovered the problem and the tortoise is okay now. I have never seen or heard of this, so thank you for sharing this with the group. It might help someone else in the future.

I’m glad too. He’s basically my son. I love him to death. I’m just really disappointed I didn’t catch this sooner because he probably was in pain the whole time. And I hope his tissue in his leg cavity will regenerate over time with eating regularly
 

wellington

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This is really bizarre. I am so glad he is okay. No one would have ever guessed that.
I agree with no moss. I had it wrap around a hatchlings neck. Luckily I caught it right away. Also many want to eat it and that's never good.
Maybe make sure when you soak him, he is moving around so anyrhing gets in there will come out. If he would just lay there in the soak and then it would dry I guess I can see it happening, rare but obviously can happen.
I would pat the coir down tight and then maybe put some fine grade orchid bark over it or even some leaf litter.
 

Franco F

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This is really bizarre. I am so glad he is okay. No one would have ever guessed that.
I agree with no moss. I had it wrap around a hatchlings neck. Luckily I caught it right away. Also many want to eat it and that's never good.
Maybe make sure when you soak him, he is moving around so anyrhing gets in there will come out. If he would just lay there in the soak and then it would dry I guess I can see it happening, rare but obviously can happen.
I would pat the coir down tight and then maybe put some fine grade orchid bark over it or even some leaf litter.
Thank you. I wish I could put the bark down but he has a habit of eating small chips and rocks. He’s cute but he’s not the brightest. His X-ray showed he has some small rocks in his belly too, which will probably pass through his stool
 

Tom

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Thank you. I wish I could put the bark down but he has a habit of eating small chips and rocks. He’s cute but he’s not the brightest. His X-ray showed he has some small rocks in his belly too, which will probably pass through his stool
This is a different but more common issue. This is typically seen in torts that are fed mostly grocery store greens. Without some significant amending, grocery store greens don't meet their nutritional needs. They are often low in fiber and mineral imbalance is common. They eat rocks and substrate to try to compensate for the low fiber and/or mineral imbalance. Many people assume the rock eating is due to low calcium and begin supplementing with more calcium more often. This usually makes things worse instead of better.

The solution is to feed to correct weedy leafy high fiber foods, or add fiber and variety to the grocery store fare, and "MinerAll" by Sticky Tongue Farms will usually stop the rock eating.

Most of my hatchlings of all species each year will nibble and sample the substrate when they first encounter it. I combat this problem by placing all sorts of foods that they are familiar with all over the enclosure. Every step they take in their first day or two walks them right in their food. This reduces the propensity to nibble the new and novel substrate. After a couple of days they just eat the food and leave the substrate alone. None have ever been impacted.

Your tortoise should be on substrate. Fine grade orchid bark is best. A couple of weeks of doing the above mentioned stuff should make it safe.
 

MenagerieGrl

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I would second what @wellington had mentioned. I would think if during the soak, the tort was activly trying to get out any thing that might have got lodged in the leg cavity would work it's way out....
 

Franco F

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This is a different but more common issue. This is typically seen in torts that are fed mostly grocery store greens. Without some significant amending, grocery store greens don't meet their nutritional needs. They are often low in fiber and mineral imbalance is common. They eat rocks and substrate to try to compensate for the low fiber and/or mineral imbalance. Many people assume the rock eating is due to low calcium and begin supplementing with more calcium more often. This usually makes things worse instead of better.

The solution is to feed to correct weedy leafy high fiber foods, or add fiber and variety to the grocery store fare, and "MinerAll" by Sticky Tongue Farms will usually stop the rock eating.

Most of my hatchlings of all species each year will nibble and sample the substrate when they first encounter it. I combat this problem by placing all sorts of foods that they are familiar with all over the enclosure. Every step they take in their first day or two walks them right in their food. This reduces the propensity to nibble the new and novel substrate. After a couple of days they just eat the food and leave the substrate alone. None have ever been impacted.

Your tortoise should be on substrate. Fine grade orchid bark is best. A couple of weeks of doing the above mentioned stuff should make it safe.
I will keep him on the substrate but I’ll closely monitor his behavior and will just have to be extra careful to make sure he doesn’t have any substrate building up in his shell cavities. I ordered the Minerall last night so hopefully that does the trick with the rock eating. And I’m working on returning him to a full natural diet, like he once was. Thank you for the help
 

Franco F

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Wondering if maybe the water should be a bit deeper during the soaks? I usually swish the water around a bit too
I usually make it deep enough so that basically his neck is sticking out of the water. I don’t know for how long, just seems like a total freak thing that the dirt would be lodged in there like that and starting affecting his bladder function. It could have been like that for a while
 

TammyJ

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I usually make it deep enough so that basically his neck is sticking out of the water. I don’t know for how long, just seems like a total freak thing that the dirt would be lodged in there like that and starting affecting his bladder function. It could have been like that for a while
You took any pictures throughout all this happening? I surely would have. Anyway, can you post some pictures of him and his setup in case anything more might occur to us to help him?
 

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