I Am Very Worried…

[Nicholas Mahoney]

My Russian tortoise has been concerning me lately. He hasn’t been eating very much at all - it has been said by vets that he’s a picky eater. He spends his days hiding in the back of his home, a wooden, open-faced structure, buried in bedding.

I continue to look things up to tell whether or not he has anything wrong with him or if he is unhappy. I’ve gotten him toys and enrichment to prevent that, but he’s still inactive.

In all honesty, this is causing a lot of stress, worry, and guilt. I’m starting to wonder if he should have a better home where he can be better taken care of.

How could I do that?

 

[TaraMaiden]

Indoors? Outdoors? How warm is it where you are right now? Do you bathe him daily? Hopefully @wellington or @Tom will look in... they're fab experts...

 

[Nicholas Mahoney]

Indoors? Outdoors? How warm is it where you are right now? Do you bathe him daily? Hopefully @wellington or @Tom will look in... they're fab experts...

I have been told that daily isn’t completely necessary. He is bathed at least once a week.

He lives indoors for his own safety and comfort. It’s summer outside, and it is also kept very warm in his home.

 

[wellington]

How old/big is he? Babies should be soaked in warm water daily. Adults don't need to be.
Tortoises don't need toys, they need a proper sized enclosure, proper heat, proper humidity, proper diet, proper hydration.
What are the temps, humidity, diet, and size enclosure, substrate, etc.

 

[Nicholas Mahoney]

How old/big is he? Babies should be soaked in warm water daily. Adults don't need to be.
Tortoises don't need toys, they need a proper sized enclosure, proper heat, proper humidity, proper diet, proper hydration.
What are the temps, humidity, diet, and size enclosure, substrate, etc.

His bedding is akin to wood chips and has proven to be better than the coconut bedding he used to have.

He’s small, around 6 inches long. That said, I highly doubt he’s all that young (for a tortoise).

Admittedly, he may possibly need a bigger enclosure, which is currently around 1.5 x 4 ft. It’s kept around in the 90s range in terms of temperature, and it’s not very humid, as the natural habitat isn’t.

I mentioned that he’s a picky eater. Because we started with him primarily eating Romain lettuce, he mostly only seems interested in that. He receives decent portions every day.

Here are some pictures of him.

 

[wellington]

You have found and listened to wrong outdated info. They do need some humidity, 50% for an adult.
The temp is to high. Only the basking area should be 95-100. The rest should be 75-80 and heat off at night as long as the temps don't go below 60. Will be hard in such a small enclosure to get the varied temps. He needs a minimum of a 4x8 foot enclosure. Should be outside during warm months with a hide he can be shut into at night or bring him in for nights.
Lettuce is mostly water. You have to get him to eat other better foods. A lot of torts are picky. You have to put the time in to get him to eat better items. Chop the lettuce and whatever better foods you can get, into tiny pieces and mix together. He will have to go thru the better stuff to get the lettuce. As he does this and will taste or even eat the better foods, then add less and less lettuce and more of the better foods. Do not feed fruit. It will be a slow process but it works.

 

[TaraMaiden]

@wellington, you're such a Champ!

 

[Nicholas Mahoney]

I looked into it a bit more. I think I overshot the temperatures, going off of a thermometer there, and they seem more appropriate. The lamps also go off at night.

I would let him outside, but I feel very cautious of him getting hurt, especially since there is a dog who probably doesn’t know he exists (good).

If he’s not interested in what he will eat, I don’t see him becoming interested in new foods.

 

[Tom]

My Russian tortoise has been concerning me lately. He hasn’t been eating very much at all - it has been said by vets that he’s a picky eater. He spends his days hiding in the back of his home, a wooden, open-faced structure, buried in bedding.

I continue to look things up to tell whether or not he has anything wrong with him or if he is unhappy. I’ve gotten him toys and enrichment to prevent that, but he’s still inactive.

In all honesty, this is causing a lot of stress, worry, and guilt. I’m starting to wonder if he should have a better home where he can be better taken care of.

How could I do that?

First realize that vets and the internet are not good sources of tortoise care info. Neither are pet stores, and even most breeders do it wrong. Most of what you find will be wrong. There is no semester on tortoise care in vet school, and no multi-year program to get "certified" in tortoise care. Experience has taught me/us, that vets are only human, and like most humans, they simply can't know everything about everything. They get their tortoise info from the same wrong sources that you, me, and everyone else gets their tortoise info. We are/were all taught the same wrong stuff. This forum has been leading a revolution to correct the tortoise keeping mistakes of the past and get the correct info out to the world.

Are the wood chips "orchid bark", aka: "Repti-bark"? If yes, then that is the best.

To measure the temp under your basking lamp place something like this...

...directly under the basking lamp and let it bake for a good hour. Lay the thermometer on its back and rest it on a brick or something to get it to tortoise shell height. Adjust the height of the fixture, or the wattage of the bulb as needed to get a basking temperature around 95-100 directly under the bulb. Best if there is a flat rock, pice of sandstone or slate directly under the bulb.

What bulbs are you using for heat, light and UV? Most people get told and sold the wrong stuff. There are four elements to heating and lighting:

1. Basking bulb. I use 65 watt incandescent floods from the hardware store. Some people will need bigger, or smaller wattage bulbs. Let your thermometer be your guide. I run them on a timer for about 12 hours and adjust the height to get the correct basking temp under them. I also like to use a flat rock of some sort directly under the bulb. You need to check the temp with a thermometer directly under the bulb and get it to around 95-100F (36-37C).
2. Ambient heat maintenance. I use ceramic heating elements or radiant heat panels set on thermostats to maintain ambient above 80 degrees day and night for tropical species. In most cases you'd only need day heat for a temperate species like Testudo or DT, as long as your house stays above 60F (15-16C) at night. Some people in colder climates or with larger enclosures will need multiple CHEs or RHPs to spread out enough heat.
3. Ambient light. I use LEDs for this purpose. Something in the 5000-6500K color range will look the best. Most bulbs at the store are in the 2500K range and they look yellowish. Strip or screw-in LED bulb types are both fine.
4. UV. If you can get your tortoise outside for an hour 2 or 3 times a week, you won't need indoor UV. In colder climates, get one of the newer HO type fluorescent tubes. Which type will depend on mounting height. 5.0 bulbs make almost no UV. I like the 12% HO bulbs from Arcadia. You need a meter to check this: https://www.solarmeter.com/model65.html A good UV bulb only needs to run for 2-3 hours mid day. You need the basking bulb and the ambient lighting to be on at least 12 hours a day.

Enclosure size: Your enclosure would be okay for a tiny new hatchling, but it is way too small for an adult. When you keep them in a small enclosure it causes all sorts of problems. Loss of muscle tone and lack of movement can cause constipation. Like horses, tortoises rely on lots of locomotion to help move things through the GI tract. When they are cramped in a small enclosure they don't tend to move around enough. You need at least 4x8 feet.

An open table is fine for an adult Russian. Keep the substrate damp and offer a humid hide, and don't worry too much about humidity. Whatever it is will be fine. Soak the tortoise two or three times a week and that will ensure good hydration. Leave the tortoise in the soaking water for 30-40 minutes. If he scrambles to get out, all the better. We call that the tortoise treadmill and the exercise will do him good.

To put the tortoise outside, you need a safe secure enclosure. There should be open sunning areas, and also lots of deep shade and plants to hide under. There should be a fence or a sturdy lid with welded wire to keep the dog at bay. The dog will destroy your tortoise given half a chance. NEVER allow this. Do not make the common mistake of thinking your dog isn't interested, or that a sweet loving gentle dog won't harm your tortoise. It will!

Wellington's food suggestions are spot on. Imagine if you sprinkled some pepper on to the lettuce... There would be no way for your tortoise to avoid the little flecks as it ate, right? Do that with all the new foods. Chop up the romaine and wet it. Then finely mince up a tiny portion of the new stuff and thoroughly mix it in with the chopped lettuce as it if were a tiny pinch of pepper. Do this every day. It will take weeks, but over time start using more of the new stuff and less lettuce. It will work but it takes weeks or months. Don't give up. Correct diet is important and they can be stubborn. A hungry tortoise is not a picky tortoise.

Your tortoises environment must be large enough, lit correctly, and kept at the correct temps for your tortoise to have a good appetite. Good appetite is essential to introducing new and better foods. All of the above works together.

Here is more correct care info:

The Best Way To Raise Any Temperate Species Of Tortoise

I chose the title of this care sheet very carefully. Are there other ways to raise babies and care for adults? Yes. Yes there are, but those ways are not as good. What follows is the BEST way, according to 30 years of research and experimentation with hundreds of babies of many species. What is...

tortoiseforum.org

Questions are welcome.

 

[Nicholas Mahoney]

First realize that vets and the internet are not good sources of tortoise care info. Neither are pet stores, and even most breeders do it wrong. Most of what you find will be wrong. There is no semester on tortoise care in vet school, and no multi-year program to get "certified" in tortoise care. Experience has taught me/us, that vets are only human, and like most humans, they simply can't know everything about everything. They get their tortoise info from the same wrong sources that you, me, and everyone else gets their tortoise info. We are/were all taught the same wrong stuff. This forum has been leading a revolution to correct the tortoise keeping mistakes of the past and get the correct info out to the world.

Are the wood chips "orchid bark", aka: "Repti-bark"? If yes, then that is the best.

To measure the temp under your basking lamp place something like this...
View attachment 346590
...directly under the basking lamp and let it bake for a good hour. Lay the thermometer on its back and rest it on a brick or something to get it to tortoise shell height. Adjust the height of the fixture, or the wattage of the bulb as needed to get a basking temperature around 95-100 directly under the bulb. Best if there is a flat rock, pice of sandstone or slate directly under the bulb.

What bulbs are you using for heat, light and UV? Most people get told and sold the wrong stuff. There are four elements to heating and lighting:

1. Basking bulb. I use 65 watt incandescent floods from the hardware store. Some people will need bigger, or smaller wattage bulbs. Let your thermometer be your guide. I run them on a timer for about 12 hours and adjust the height to get the correct basking temp under them. I also like to use a flat rock of some sort directly under the bulb. You need to check the temp with a thermometer directly under the bulb and get it to around 95-100F (36-37C).
2. Ambient heat maintenance. I use ceramic heating elements or radiant heat panels set on thermostats to maintain ambient above 80 degrees day and night for tropical species. In most cases you'd only need day heat for a temperate species like Testudo or DT, as long as your house stays above 60F (15-16C) at night. Some people in colder climates or with larger enclosures will need multiple CHEs or RHPs to spread out enough heat.
3. Ambient light. I use LEDs for this purpose. Something in the 5000-6500K color range will look the best. Most bulbs at the store are in the 2500K range and they look yellowish. Strip or screw-in LED bulb types are both fine.
4. UV. If you can get your tortoise outside for an hour 2 or 3 times a week, you won't need indoor UV. In colder climates, get one of the newer HO type fluorescent tubes. Which type will depend on mounting height. 5.0 bulbs make almost no UV. I like the 12% HO bulbs from Arcadia. You need a meter to check this: https://www.solarmeter.com/model65.html A good UV bulb only needs to run for 2-3 hours mid day. You need the basking bulb and the ambient lighting to be on at least 12 hours a day.

Enclosure size: Your enclosure would be okay for a tiny new hatchling, but it is way too small for an adult. When you keep them in a small enclosure it causes all sorts of problems. Loss of muscle tone and lack of movement can cause constipation. Like horses, tortoises rely on lots of locomotion to help move things through the GI tract. When they are cramped in a small enclosure they don't tend to move around enough. You need at least 4x8 feet.

An open table is fine for an adult Russian. Keep the substrate damp and offer a humid hide, and don't worry too much about humidity. Whatever it is will be fine. Soak the tortoise two or three times a week and that will ensure good hydration. Leave the tortoise in the soaking water for 30-40 minutes. If he scrambles to get out, all the better. We call that the tortoise treadmill and the exercise will do him good.

To put the tortoise outside, you need a safe secure enclosure. There should be open sunning areas, and also lots of deep shade and plants to hide under. There should be a fence or a sturdy lid with welded wire to keep the dog at bay. The dog will destroy your tortoise given half a chance. NEVER allow this. Do not make the common mistake of thinking your dog isn't interested, or that a sweet loving gentle dog won't harm your tortoise. It will!

Wellington's food suggestions are spot on. Imagine if you sprinkled some pepper on to the lettuce... There would be no way for your tortoise to avoid the little flecks as it ate, right? Do that with all the new foods. Chop up the romaine and wet it. Then finely mince up a tiny portion of the new stuff and thoroughly mix it in with the chopped lettuce as it if were a tiny pinch of pepper. Do this every day. It will take weeks, but over time start using more of the new stuff and less lettuce. It will work but it takes weeks or months. Don't give up. Correct diet is important and they can be stubborn. A hungry tortoise is not a picky tortoise.

Your tortoises environment must be large enough, lit correctly, and kept at the correct temps for your tortoise to have a good appetite. Good appetite is essential to introducing new and better foods. All of the above works together.

Here is more correct care info:

The Best Way To Raise Any Temperate Species Of Tortoise

I chose the title of this care sheet very carefully. Are there other ways to raise babies and care for adults? Yes. Yes there are, but those ways are not as good. What follows is the BEST way, according to 30 years of research and experimentation with hundreds of babies of many species. What is...

tortoiseforum.org

Questions are welcome.

He has good UVs. I recently ordered a new thermometer for more accurate measurements.

Earlier, I was told grown tortoises don’t find soaks essential. He does receive them at least once a week, however, currently.

I might note that he does move around. He simply chooses to be hidden.

I could look into better foods, but I’ve done so before.

I’m still unsure about being outside.

 

[Nicholas Mahoney]

He has good UVs. I recently ordered a new thermometer for more accurate measurements.

Earlier, I was told grown tortoises don’t find soaks essential. He does receive them at least once a week, however, currently.

I might note that he does move around. He simply chooses to be hidden.

I could look into better foods, but I’ve done so before.

I’m still unsure about being outside.

 

[TammyJ]

Do you really want to help and keep this tortoise? Our experts here have gone too lots of effort and time to help you with the best advice. There is not better help anywhere else if you are interested in keeping him healthy.

 

[Nicholas Mahoney]

Do you really want to help and keep this tortoise? Our experts here have gone too lots of effort and time to help you with the best advice. There is not better help anywhere else if you are interested in keeping him healthy.

I don't mean to come across as ungrateful. I really do want him to be healthy and happy.

 

[wellington]

I don't mean to come across as ungrateful. I really do want him to be healthy and happy.

Then you need to do what has been said.
As for the diet, it has to be done. It has to be done until he eats a good healthy varied diet.
A tortoise living outside is happier, gets more exercise and is more natural.

 

[Sarah2020]

There is a lot to take in and your tort looks lovely. It is really worth making some adjustments to give him a comfortable home. Re outside it is worth making an enclosure as big as possible that is safe, secure and escape proof with shade and sun spots. On a suitable day you can put him out to roam, graze and bask.

 

[Tom]

He has good UVs. I recently ordered a new thermometer for more accurate measurements.

Many people get told the wrong info and sold the wrong products about UV. When you say it is "good" that doesn't tell me what you are using. What type of UV bulb are you using? Not the brand but the type? Is it a CFL, or an HO tube, or a all-in-one-mercury vapor bulb? How close to the tortoise and how long is it on each day?

Earlier, I was told grown tortoises don’t find soaks essential. He does receive them at least once a week, however, currently.

In the right circumstances, in some cases, this is true. Your circumstances are different. Even in those right circumstances, while I will agree that soaks are not "essential", I will argue that soaks are always beneficial.

I might note that he does move around. He simply chooses to be hidden.

This might be because of the wrong lighting, wrong temps, small enclosure, or some other factor. Something isn't right, and I would like to try to help you figure it out.

I could look into better foods, but I’ve done so before.

Tortoises can be stubborn. It won't happen if you just put the new food down. He won't eat it. He would probably go a week or more without eating a pile of some new and unfamiliar food. That is why Barb and I both took the time to explain how to do it. It any of that explanation isn't clear, please ask us. We want to help you and your tortoise.

I’m still unsure about being outside.

What are you unsure of? Let us help. You are now part of a whole community of people who want to see you happy and see your tortoise thriving.

 

[Nicholas Mahoney]

Many people get told the wrong info and sold the wrong products about UV. When you say it is "good" that doesn't tell me what you are using. What type of UV bulb are you using? Not the brand but the type? Is it a CFL, or an HO tube, or a all-in-one-mercury vapor bulb? How close to the tortoise and how long is it on each day?

In the right circumstances, in some cases, this is true. Your circumstances are different. Even in those right circumstances, while I will agree that soaks are not "essential", I will argue that soaks are always beneficial.


This might be because of the wrong lighting, wrong temps, small enclosure, or some other factor. Something isn't right, and I would like to try to help you figure it out.


Tortoises can be stubborn. It won't happen if you just put the new food down. He won't eat it. He would probably go a week or more without eating a pile of some new and unfamiliar food. That is why Barb and I both took the time to explain how to do it. It any of that explanation isn't clear, please ask us. We want to help you and your tortoise.

What are you unsure of? Let us help. You are now part of a whole community of people who want to see you happy and see your tortoise thriving.

I believe they are mercury bulbs. They’re both at the front of the enclosure, shining down.

I try to keep the general light cast over it. The heat lamp focuses down on a structure on which he climbs and rests.

He also did generally keep to himself. It just seems to be more frequent.

His diet and capability of being outside feel like the biggest problems. If I’m reading this right, mixing new and old food in one is a solution?

Having him outside seems as though he would need something entirely different to spend time in. He can’t just walk around. Even with that, I don’t know if this would take the dog out of the equation.

 

[Tom]

I believe they are mercury bulbs. They’re both at the front of the enclosure, shining down.

I try to keep the general light cast over it. The heat lamp focuses down on a structure on which he climbs and rests.

He also did generally keep to himself. It just seems to be more frequent.

His diet and capability of being outside feel like the biggest problems. If I’m reading this right, mixing new and old food in one is a solution?

Having him outside seems as though he would need something entirely different to spend time in. He can’t just walk around. Even with that, I don’t know if this would take the dog out of the equation.

Lets try something different: You should not be using mercury vapor bulbs. They are unreliable and not a good way to go. If the bulbs are more than three months old, he might not be getting any UVB at all. Only a meter can tell us. Here is what you should be doing:
There are four elements to heating and lighting:

1. Basking bulb. I use 65 watt incandescent floods from the hardware store. Some people will need bigger, or smaller wattage bulbs. Let your thermometer be your guide. I run them on a timer for about 12 hours and adjust the height to get the correct basking temp under them. I also like to use a flat rock of some sort directly under the bulb. You need to check the temp with a thermometer directly under the bulb and get it to around 95-100F (36-37C).
2. Ambient heat maintenance. I use ceramic heating elements or radiant heat panels set on thermostats to maintain ambient above 80 degrees day and night for tropical species. In most cases you'd only need day heat for a temperate species like Testudo or DT, as long as your house stays above 60F (15-16C) at night. Some people in colder climates or with larger enclosures will need multiple CHEs or RHPs to spread out enough heat.
3. Ambient light. I use LEDs for this purpose. Something in the 5000-6500K color range will look the best. Most bulbs at the store are in the 2500K range and they look yellowish. Strip or screw-in LED bulb types are both fine.
4. UV. If you can get your tortoise outside for an hour 2 or 3 times a week, you won't need indoor UV. In colder climates, get one of the newer HO type fluorescent tubes. Which type will depend on mounting height. 5.0 bulbs make almost no UV. I like the 12% HO bulbs from Arcadia. You need a meter to check this: https://www.solarmeter.com/model65.html A good UV bulb only needs to run for 2-3 hours mid day. You need the basking bulb and the ambient lighting to be on at least 12 hours a day.

The tortoise should never be roaming free outside. You will lose him. You need to build a safe enclosure out of wood, cinderblocks, corrugated plastic roofing sheets, or something similar. Either build it behind a fence where the dog can't get to it, or build it in such a way that you can keep a sturdy lid on it. Here is one simple example:

This one is 4x8 feet and I use it for babies. Try to go bigger. You could buy 4 8x12s and screw the ends together to make 8x8 feet, and then make two 4x8 foot lids like this one that hinge in the middle. You could put the lids on cinderblocks instead of 2x12s. You could skip the lids if the enclosure is in an area the dog can't get to. This pic was taken in winter, so I wanted maximum sun for the cool ground and cooler air temps. For hot weather in summer, you'd need more shade. Perhaps a sturdy backyard umbrella mounted in such a way as to shade half the enclosure, and not blow over. I sometimes sit tie dead palm fronds to enclosures for added shade. There are many ways to do it. You could buy a large stock tank for horses. They make them 8-10 feet around. Put a few inches of the native dirt on the bottom, or some orchid bark, and put it in an area that the dog can't get to, or make a lid.

I posted a link to the care sheet for you at the end of post number 9. The food thing is explained in detail there. All you have to do is read it and do it.

 

[TaraMaiden]

<SNIP>
...In all honesty, this is causing a lot of stress, worry, and guilt. I’m starting to wonder if he should have a better home where he can be better taken care of.

How could I do that?

You see, what I'm seeing is you, on the one hand, being extremely concerned for your pet, and wanting to do what's right; but on the other hand, it seems as if you're resistant to help, because you're rejecting or resisting what others are telling you.
Take it from a complete tortoise greenhorn; you couldn't ever hope to find a better place, to get help in making your pet's life idyllic and perfect. Rather than explain what you're doing, just be prepared to go that extra mile, and foloow counsel. You won't be sorry.
We all want the best for you and your tort. Believe us when we say that.

 

[Nicholas Mahoney]

Lets try something different: You should not be using mercury vapor bulbs. They are unreliable and not a good way to go. If the bulbs are more than three months old, he might not be getting any UVB at all. Only a meter can tell us. Here is what you should be doing:
There are four elements to heating and lighting:

1. Basking bulb. I use 65 watt incandescent floods from the hardware store. Some people will need bigger, or smaller wattage bulbs. Let your thermometer be your guide. I run them on a timer for about 12 hours and adjust the height to get the correct basking temp under them. I also like to use a flat rock of some sort directly under the bulb. You need to check the temp with a thermometer directly under the bulb and get it to around 95-100F (36-37C).
2. Ambient heat maintenance. I use ceramic heating elements or radiant heat panels set on thermostats to maintain ambient above 80 degrees day and night for tropical species. In most cases you'd only need day heat for a temperate species like Testudo or DT, as long as your house stays above 60F (15-16C) at night. Some people in colder climates or with larger enclosures will need multiple CHEs or RHPs to spread out enough heat.
3. Ambient light. I use LEDs for this purpose. Something in the 5000-6500K color range will look the best. Most bulbs at the store are in the 2500K range and they look yellowish. Strip or screw-in LED bulb types are both fine.
4. UV. If you can get your tortoise outside for an hour 2 or 3 times a week, you won't need indoor UV. In colder climates, get one of the newer HO type fluorescent tubes. Which type will depend on mounting height. 5.0 bulbs make almost no UV. I like the 12% HO bulbs from Arcadia. You need a meter to check this: https://www.solarmeter.com/model65.html A good UV bulb only needs to run for 2-3 hours mid day. You need the basking bulb and the ambient lighting to be on at least 12 hours a day.

The tortoise should never be roaming free outside. You will lose him. You need to build a safe enclosure out of wood, cinderblocks, corrugated plastic roofing sheets, or something similar. Either build it behind a fence where the dog can't get to it, or build it in such a way that you can keep a sturdy lid on it. Here is one simple example:
View attachment 346612
This one is 4x8 feet and I use it for babies. Try to go bigger. You could buy 4 8x12s and screw the ends together to make 8x8 feet, and then make two 4x8 foot lids like this one that hinge in the middle. You could put the lids on cinderblocks instead of 2x12s. You could skip the lids if the enclosure is in an area the dog can't get to. This pic was taken in winter, so I wanted maximum sun for the cool ground and cooler air temps. For hot weather in summer, you'd need more shade. Perhaps a sturdy backyard umbrella mounted in such a way as to shade half the enclosure, and not blow over. I sometimes sit tie dead palm fronds to enclosures for added shade. There are many ways to do it. You could buy a large stock tank for horses. They make them 8-10 feet around. Put a few inches of the native dirt on the bottom, or some orchid bark, and put it in an area that the dog can't get to, or make a lid.

I posted a link to the care sheet for you at the end of post number 9. The food thing is explained in detail there. All you have to do is read it and do it.

Why is there a barrier in the middle?