Why is my Leopard Tortoise so small at 15 years old?

beachylivin

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Hi all, attached are pictures of my 11-15 year old leopard tortoise.

Some background information; I am actually a former zookeeper and specialized in saltwater aquatics and reptiles. I've worked with many shelled friends, from sea turtles to baby desert tortoises.

For my husband and my 1 yr wedding anniversary (10 years ago, married 11), he got me our tortoise. He was from a local petstore; the owner was a reptile reptile keeper at a local world famous zoo, much of his store's collection were bred and raised by local reptile owners and friends, otherwise I would have never been okay with supporting this purchase. Anyways, they said he was around 5, and that he was a male (he's expressed his glands).

He has grown a LOT since we got him 10 years ago; he has tripled in size but is still SO small. His shell is 12 inches from end to end and he is a whopping 8.5 pounds lol. He lives full time outside, we used to bring him inside during the winter but he was a heated house with a thermostat and does well through our short southern california winters. He gets a mazuri LS diet, with daily clippings of grape leaves, rose petals, hibiscus leaves and flowers, grass clippings, romaine, spring mix and so much more.

He has a good diet, eats well, could use a larger pen, has access to fresh water in two places. Is there anything I am missing? Is this genetics? Improper care during incubation? He's otherwise healthy and fiery.
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wellington

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Part is due to extreme pyramiding. He was hatched and raised with no humidity and so he pyramided. That many years ago we didn't know much about the high humidity they need. I have one that is pyramided like yours and is smaller then the one I have that's not as bad.
 

beachylivin

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Part is due to extreme pyramiding. He was hatched and raised with no humidity and so he pyramided. That many years ago we didn't know much about the high humidity they need. I have one that is pyramided like yours and is smaller then the one I have that's not as bad.
Definitely- I spoke to another keeper about this and she mentioned the same thing. In my care he has been outside full time. I soak him, but could do it more frequently. He is pretty good about soaking himself. I also hose down his pen daily. We soaked our tortoises at work daily.

Even with the pyramiding though, his weight is still so low despite having a regular diet :( I'm going to try and attach a picture of when I first got him.
 

wellington

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Definitely- I spoke to another keeper about this and she mentioned the same thing. In my care he has been outside full time. I soak him, but could do it more frequently. He is pretty good about soaking himself. I also hose down his pen daily. We soaked our tortoises at work daily.

Even with the pyramiding though, his weight is still so low despite having a regular diet :( I'm going to try and attach a picture of when I first got him.
When they are hatched they need an 80% humidity for about 3 years or more in the whole enclosure and daily warm soaks. When adult they need a humid hide. The amount you mentioned was never going to stop the pyramiding. Once it starts it's very hard to get it too stop. Leopards specially are a species that seems harder to grow smooth and then to stop it once started.
I haven't weighed mine in a while but as long as mine is eating, drinking and acting normal, I don't worry about it. Mine is lighter then the other one but like I said, also smaller.
 

Tom

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Hi all, attached are pictures of my 11-15 year old leopard tortoise.

Some background information; I am actually a former zookeeper and specialized in saltwater aquatics and reptiles. I've worked with many shelled friends, from sea turtles to baby desert tortoises.

For my husband and my 1 yr wedding anniversary (10 years ago, married 11), he got me our tortoise. He was from a local petstore; the owner was a reptile reptile keeper at a local world famous zoo, much of his store's collection were bred and raised by local reptile owners and friends, otherwise I would have never been okay with supporting this purchase. Anyways, they said he was around 5, and that he was a male (he's expressed his glands).

He has grown a LOT since we got him 10 years ago; he has tripled in size but is still SO small. His shell is 12 inches from end to end and he is a whopping 8.5 pounds lol. He lives full time outside, we used to bring him inside during the winter but he was a heated house with a thermostat and does well through our short southern california winters. He gets a mazuri LS diet, with daily clippings of grape leaves, rose petals, hibiscus leaves and flowers, grass clippings, romaine, spring mix and so much more.

He has a good diet, eats well, could use a larger pen, has access to fresh water in two places. Is there anything I am missing? Is this genetics? Improper care during incubation? He's otherwise healthy and fiery.
View attachment 347044View attachment 347045
12 inches is normal size for a male leopard tortoise. He's not small.

Reptile stores, zoos, vets, breeders, the internet... Almost everyone has the old wrong info on how to start and raise baby tortoises. His pyramiding tells the tale. This guy was started and housed all wrong as a baby and somehow managed to survive. Many don't.

It sounds like your diet is excellent, so I don't know why his weight would be low. Dehydration is a major issue for captive tortoises, and regular warm soaks work as a "cure all" for all sorts of maladies. I would recommend soaking this guy in warm water in a tall sided opaque tub for 30-45 minutes every other day for a couple of weeks, then cut it down to once or twice a week if you want. There would be no harm in soaking for 2 hours every day, but I don't think that much is "necessary".

Here is a thought: There are a lot of succulents in Africa. Much more than here. Succulents are a large portion of the set over there. Do you feed him spineless opuntia? Jade plant or elephant bush?

Also... Looking at your user name, if you live near the coast with cold clammy weather and May Gray and June Gloom, that's not such a great environment for a leopard. Keep that night box good and warm year round. I'd set it to 80 and offer a basking bulb for cold winter days.
 

beachylivin

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12 inches is normal size for a male leopard tortoise. He's not small.

Reptile stores, zoos, vets, breeders, the internet... Almost everyone has the old wrong info on how to start and raise baby tortoises. His pyramiding tells the tale. This guy was started and housed all wrong as a baby and somehow managed to survive. Many don't.

It sounds like your diet is excellent, so I don't know why his weight would be low. Dehydration is a major issue for captive tortoises, and regular warm soaks work as a "cure all" for all sorts of maladies. I would recommend soaking this guy in warm water in a tall sided opaque tub for 30-45 minutes every other day for a couple of weeks, then cut it down to once or twice a week if you want. There would be no harm in soaking for 2 hours every day, but I don't think that much is "necessary".

Here is a thought: There are a lot of succulents in Africa. Much more than here. Succulents are a large portion of the set over there. Do you feed him spineless opuntia? Jade plant or elephant bush?

Also... Looking at your user name, if you live near the coast with cold clammy weather and May Gray and June Gloom, that's not such a great environment for a leopard. Keep that night box good and warm year round. I'd set it to 80 and offer a basking bulb for cold winter days.
Thanks Tom! I was actually just googling if he can eat Jade. He has ton of Jade growing in his enclosure but has never shown interest. I will clip some to offer. I did not mention succulents but we do offer him succulents. I have tons of succulents growing on my property, and can definitely offer them more! We used to soak my tortoises at work, for 20 minutes daily. I do not soak my tortoise often, but definitely will change that; he's also very good about soaking himself, but I need to be proactive about it.

It's funny you say his size is good, because in researching on this forum I have see a ton of tortoise that are growing at abnormal rates and was shocked. Tortoises also fast in the wild just due to elements and seasonal changes! Sea turtles typically hit sexual maturity at 20-25 years old in the wild, but the sea turtles I worked with, and others in captivity, hit maturity around 6-8 due to steady diet and temps and no natural fasting. It's wild how the conditions can create so much variation in growth.
 

wellington

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Thanks Tom! I was actually just googling if he can eat Jade. He has ton of Jade growing in his enclosure but has never shown interest. I will clip some to offer. I did not mention succulents but we do offer him succulents. I have tons of succulents growing on my property, and can definitely offer them more! We used to soak my tortoises at work, for 20 minutes daily. I do not soak my tortoise often, but definitely will change that; he's also very good about soaking himself, but I need to be proactive about it.

It's funny you say his size is good, because in researching on this forum I have see a ton of tortoise that are growing at abnormal rates and was shocked. Tortoises also fast in the wild just due to elements and seasonal changes! Sea turtles typically hit sexual maturity at 20-25 years old in the wild, but the sea turtles I worked with, and others in captivity, hit maturity around 6-8 due to steady diet and temps and no natural fasting. It's wild how the conditions can create so much variation in growth.
I'm shocked he said the size was normal. Most I have seen at the age of mine are bigger. Even my one other one that was a rescue and was stunted until I got him is bigger. I do know the males are smaller then females but most males i have seen and smoother then yours and mine are bigger. I am still sure and convinced a lot has to do with ours growing up with the pyramiding instead of out like the smoother ones. Makes sense.
 

Yvonne G

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Hi all, attached are pictures of my 11-15 year old leopard tortoise.

Some background information; I am actually a former zookeeper and specialized in saltwater aquatics and reptiles. I've worked with many shelled friends, from sea turtles to baby desert tortoises.

For my husband and my 1 yr wedding anniversary (10 years ago, married 11), he got me our tortoise. He was from a local petstore; the owner was a reptile reptile keeper at a local world famous zoo, much of his store's collection were bred and raised by local reptile owners and friends, otherwise I would have never been okay with supporting this purchase. Anyways, they said he was around 5, and that he was a male (he's expressed his glands).

He has grown a LOT since we got him 10 years ago; he has tripled in size but is still SO small. His shell is 12 inches from end to end and he is a whopping 8.5 pounds lol. He lives full time outside, we used to bring him inside during the winter but he was a heated house with a thermostat and does well through our short southern california winters. He gets a mazuri LS diet, with daily clippings of grape leaves, rose petals, hibiscus leaves and flowers, grass clippings, romaine, spring mix and so much more.

He has a good diet, eats well, could use a larger pen, has access to fresh water in two places. Is there anything I am missing? Is this genetics? Improper care during incubation? He's otherwise healthy and fiery.
View attachment 347044View attachment 347045
I have one like that too, and since I raised him from an egg I know exactly why he's so small.

My male leopard, appx ten years old (appx. because I'm not at my computer where my records are kept) is small like yours. He's the first leopard I ever hatched and he hatched during my keep-'em-hot-dry-under-harsh-lights period. He was kept in a large open table with alfalfa pellet substrate, no water and few soaks. Like yours he's pyramided and stunted.

I have since seen the error of my ways, but I'm afraid the damage has been done. He's small and very apt to stay that way. But he's very outgoing and otherwise quite healthy.
 

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Tom

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I'm shocked he said the size was normal. Most I have seen at the age of mine are bigger. Even my one other one that was a rescue and was stunted until I got him is bigger. I do know the males are smaller then females but most males i have seen and smoother then yours and mine are bigger. I am still sure and convinced a lot has to do with ours growing up with the pyramiding instead of out like the smoother ones. Makes sense.
Some are larger due to the South African genetics that are so prevalent in American leopards that have been mixing with all localities since the 60's.

12 inch males are within normal for some populations in the wild.
 

Tom

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Thanks Tom! I was actually just googling if he can eat Jade. He has ton of Jade growing in his enclosure but has never shown interest. I will clip some to offer. I did not mention succulents but we do offer him succulents. I have tons of succulents growing on my property, and can definitely offer them more! We used to soak my tortoises at work, for 20 minutes daily. I do not soak my tortoise often, but definitely will change that; he's also very good about soaking himself, but I need to be proactive about it.

It's funny you say his size is good, because in researching on this forum I have see a ton of tortoise that are growing at abnormal rates and was shocked. Tortoises also fast in the wild just due to elements and seasonal changes! Sea turtles typically hit sexual maturity at 20-25 years old in the wild, but the sea turtles I worked with, and others in captivity, hit maturity around 6-8 due to steady diet and temps and no natural fasting. It's wild how the conditions can create so much variation in growth.
Not all succulents are safe to eat. Verify each one before offering.

It is my opinion that the tortoises you refer to as having "abnormal" growth rates are, in fact, normal growth rates, and the slower growth that you are used to seeing and are referencing is due to the sub-optimal care that is so common.

We've been caring for tortoises all wrong for decades, and only in the last decade have we figured it out. Most of the tortoise keeping community has no idea that some of us have figured out what was wrong, why it was wrong, and how to do it much better.

With your animal background, you know that mere survival in the wild can be exceedingly difficult, and the slightest little problem can be a death sentence. I don't want my animals to merely survive, I want them to thrive. I want to provide optimal conditions, the best of the elements they would encounter in the wild, and protect them from the negative elements of the wild like predation, disease, parasites, starvation and dehydration. Yes they do fast in the wild when its too hot to function, too cold to function, or when there is just no food, but I see no point in allowing that to happen to them in our captive conditions.

My adult animals live outside and experience four seasons, but I help them through the rough spots with temperature management and provide food when it is seasonally scarce.

Babies raised in optimal conditions with good food and hydration do grow much faster than their wild counterparts that are barely surviving, or not surviving in most cases, and I don't think that is a bad thing, or unnatural.
 

Cathie G

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Not all succulents are safe to eat. Verify each one before offering.

It is my opinion that the tortoises you refer to as having "abnormal" growth rates are, in fact, normal growth rates, and the slower growth that you are used to seeing and are referencing is due to the sub-optimal care that is so common.

We've been caring for tortoises all wrong for decades, and only in the last decade have we figured it out. Most of the tortoise keeping community has no idea that some of us have figured out what was wrong, why it was wrong, and how to do it much better.

With your animal background, you know that mere survival in the wild can be exceedingly difficult, and the slightest little problem can be a death sentence. I don't want my animals to merely survive, I want them to thrive. I want to provide optimal conditions, the best of the elements they would encounter in the wild, and protect them from the negative elements of the wild like predation, disease, parasites, starvation and dehydration. Yes they do fast in the wild when its too hot to function, too cold to function, or when there is just no food, but I see no point in allowing that to happen to them in our captive conditions.

My adult animals live outside and experience four seasons, but I help them through the rough spots with temperature management and provide food when it is seasonally scarce.

Babies raised in optimal conditions with good food and hydration do grow much faster than their wild counterparts that are barely surviving, or not surviving in most cases, and I don't think that is a bad thing, or unnatural.
Amen.
 

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I've regularly seen leopard tortoises in areas in Africa with few to no succulents.
Here is a thought: There are a lot of succulents in Africa. Much more than here. Succulents are a large portion of the set over there. Do you feed him spineless opuntia? Jade plant or elephant bush?
 

Tom

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I've regularly seen leopard tortoises in areas in Africa with few to no succulents.
I believe you. We had a presentation at the TTPG conference one year about Chersina. The speaker had been to Africa and studied torts in the wild there extensively. He was also interested in botany and noted that here in Southern CA we have about 3000 plant species, while over there in Southern Africa, just one part of the enormous range of the leopard tortoise, there were 22,000+ plant species. He noted that a large percentage of those were succulents, and that there are surprisingly no native cactus specie over there.

The diet studies I've seen on wild leopards indicate that succulents make up a decent percentage of their diet in the wild, along with forbs, grasses, and mammal feces. Was there mammal feces where you saw leopard tortoises in Africa? There was mammal feces and succulents where I saw leopards in Africa.
 

SanctuaryHills

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Hi there! Seems like our professionals have already pitched in with some excellent advise. One thing I'd like to add is "watering" your Tortoise. And I don't just mean soakings, but something that simulates rain. In my case I use one of those mobile sprinklers that sit on a tripod.

Every day I turn the sprinkler on for about an hour during the hottest part of the day (around 2pm) and they just get SUPER active. They walk all around the enclosure, climb on things, they go in their pond, and it helps keeps the soil in their enclosure moist which they seem to enjoy.

But best of all, they start devouring whatever greens I've set out for them, and drink more water. I'm sure there is a scientific explanation of why this type of stimulation encourages such behavior... I've seen a lot of other tortoise owners (with different breeds) that do the same thing with the same results.

Does anyone else "water" their tortoises? How often are you doing it? What type of behavior are you seeing?
 

beachylivin

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Not all succulents are safe to eat. Verify each one before offering.

It is my opinion that the tortoises you refer to as having "abnormal" growth rates are, in fact, normal growth rates, and the slower growth that you are used to seeing and are referencing is due to the sub-optimal care that is so common.

We've been caring for tortoises all wrong for decades, and only in the last decade have we figured it out. Most of the tortoise keeping community has no idea that some of us have figured out what was wrong, why it was wrong, and how to do it much better.

With your animal background, you know that mere survival in the wild can be exceedingly difficult, and the slightest little problem can be a death sentence. I don't want my animals to merely survive, I want them to thrive. I want to provide optimal conditions, the best of the elements they would encounter in the wild, and protect them from the negative elements of the wild like predation, disease, parasites, starvation and dehydration. Yes they do fast in the wild when its too hot to function, too cold to function, or when there is just no food, but I see no point in allowing that to happen to them in our captive conditions.

My adult animals live outside and experience four seasons, but I help them through the rough spots with temperature management and provide food when it is seasonally scarce.

Babies raised in optimal conditions with good food and hydration do grow much faster than their wild counterparts that are barely surviving, or not surviving in most cases, and I don't think that is a bad thing, or unnatural.
This was shared amongst a professional zookeeper page. I do think slower growth is healthier than fast growth. This goes for most animals.
 

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beachylivin

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Hi there! Seems like our professionals have already pitched in with some excellent advise. One thing I'd like to add is "watering" your Tortoise. And I don't just mean soakings, but something that simulates rain. In my case I use one of those mobile sprinklers that sit on a tripod.

Every day I turn the sprinkler on for about an hour during the hottest part of the day (around 2pm) and they just get SUPER active. They walk all around the enclosure, climb on things, they go in their pond, and it helps keeps the soil in their enclosure moist which they seem to enjoy.

But best of all, they start devouring whatever greens I've set out for them, and drink more water. I'm sure there is a scientific explanation of why this type of stimulation encourages such behavior... I've seen a lot of other tortoise owners (with different breeds) that do the same thing with the same results.

Does anyone else "water" their tortoises? How often are you doing it? What type of behavior are you seeing?
I spray his enclosure daily but will look into a sort of misting system. Thanks for the input!!
 

Cathie G

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Hi there! Seems like our professionals have already pitched in with some excellent advise. One thing I'd like to add is "watering" your Tortoise. And I don't just mean soakings, but something that simulates rain. In my case I use one of those mobile sprinklers that sit on a tripod.

Every day I turn the sprinkler on for about an hour during the hottest part of the day (around 2pm) and they just get SUPER active. They walk all around the enclosure, climb on things, they go in their pond, and it helps keeps the soil in their enclosure moist which they seem to enjoy.

But best of all, they start devouring whatever greens I've set out for them, and drink more water. I'm sure there is a scientific explanation of why this type of stimulation encourages such behavior... I've seen a lot of other tortoise owners (with different breeds) that do the same thing with the same results.

Does anyone else "water" their tortoises? How often are you doing it? What type of behavior are you seeing?
Sapphire sometimes stays out in the rain and must enjoy it. He knows exactly where his hide is and goes to it if he isn't in the mood for that rain. But he'll stay out for those specific types of rain that he enjoys. I give him a little buffing up with a towel and a tiny bit of coconut oil another buffing and back to his indoor enclosure. There are dry days that could really use a misting in the wild to cool it all off that don't get one. But his outdoor enclosure does 🤗
 

SasquatchTortoise

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Hi there! Seems like our professionals have already pitched in with some excellent advise. One thing I'd like to add is "watering" your Tortoise. And I don't just mean soakings, but something that simulates rain. In my case I use one of those mobile sprinklers that sit on a tripod.

Every day I turn the sprinkler on for about an hour during the hottest part of the day (around 2pm) and they just get SUPER active. They walk all around the enclosure, climb on things, they go in their pond, and it helps keeps the soil in their enclosure moist which they seem to enjoy.

But best of all, they start devouring whatever greens I've set out for them, and drink more water. I'm sure there is a scientific explanation of why this type of stimulation encourages such behavior... I've seen a lot of other tortoise owners (with different breeds) that do the same thing with the same results.

Does anyone else "water" their tortoises? How often are you doing it? What type of behavior are you seeing?
Whenever I water, I try to get the enclosure and the tortoise wet. I don’t know if she enjoys it, but it couldn’t hurt I suppose
 

Tom

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Hi there! Seems like our professionals have already pitched in with some excellent advise. One thing I'd like to add is "watering" your Tortoise. And I don't just mean soakings, but something that simulates rain. In my case I use one of those mobile sprinklers that sit on a tripod.

Every day I turn the sprinkler on for about an hour during the hottest part of the day (around 2pm) and they just get SUPER active. They walk all around the enclosure, climb on things, they go in their pond, and it helps keeps the soil in their enclosure moist which they seem to enjoy.

But best of all, they start devouring whatever greens I've set out for them, and drink more water. I'm sure there is a scientific explanation of why this type of stimulation encourages such behavior... I've seen a lot of other tortoise owners (with different breeds) that do the same thing with the same results.

Does anyone else "water" their tortoises? How often are you doing it? What type of behavior are you seeing?
This is common among many species. For smaller growing tortoises, shell spraying helps them to grow smoother in our captive environments.
 
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