Yearling Testudo graeca ibera, "Ankara" locale

[MotherofDragons]

I've officially outted myself as not using a closed chamber. Here are my one year old Greek babies from Garden State Tortoise. They, and I, await your judgment! I've been anxious to do this for a while now. I'm afraid to be torn down, but I also feel I may have something to offer. I realize the group is only worth anything if people share, and my torts and I have benefitted so much from others sharing their experiences. So, here are my babies!!

I've been trying to decide if there are any signs of minor pyramiding, obsessively running my fingers over the scute seams, but it's really difficult with not having more experience. Not knowing what perfect growth looks like or feels like in person- is there no texture at all, or is there some texture regardless??? I've looked at all the up-close pictures I can. I sent pictures to Chris and he was very happy with them.

I want to hear your thoughts on the babies first, then I would be happy to share their setup, and care. They are a year old, and evaluating how they are doing is important to me. Please do not think I must not love them because I do things differently. I have another trio coming my way and have been obsessively researching to be sure these are doing well, if I should raise the next set the same, or if adjustments should be made. I'm open-minded to make needed adjustments, but please don't shoot us down just because we are rebels.

@wellington, what do you think? First two photos taken yesterday, soaking pictures from last month.

 

[zovick]

I've officially outted myself as not using a closed chamber. Here are my one year old Greek babies from Garden State Tortoise. They, and I, await your judgment! I've been anxious to do this for a while now. I'm afraid to be torn down, but I also feel I may have something to offer. I realize the group is only worth anything if people share, and my torts and I have benefitted so much from others sharing their experiences. So, here are my babies!!

I've been trying to decide if there are any signs of minor pyramiding, obsessively running my fingers over the scute seams, but it's really difficult with not having more experience. Not knowing what perfect growth looks like or feels like in person- is there no texture at all, or is there some texture regardless??? I've looked at all the up-close pictures I can. I sent pictures to Chris and he was very happy with them.

I want to hear your thoughts on the babies first, then I would be happy to share their setup, and care. They are a year old, and evaluating how they are doing is important to me. Please do not think I must not love them because I do things differently. I have another trio coming my way and have been obsessively researching to be sure these are doing well, if I should raise the next set the same, or if adjustments should be made. I'm open-minded to make needed adjustments, but please don't shoot us down just because we are rebels.

@wellington, what do you think? First two photos taken yesterday, soaking pictures from last month.


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It looks as though you may be getting the beginnings of pyramiding, especially on the tortoise at the right of the last photo. The vertebral scutes appear to be becoming slightly raised.

Maybe you could consider using the closed chamber technique for the new trio and compare the results a year from now.

 

[wellington]

They look great. I can't feel them but they do look like slight pyramiding, specially in the second picture. However, it could just be the angle and or lighting. Does it feel like the growth line is lower then the actual scute, with ridges going upto the top of scute?
At this point I would guess that it's more the angle or lighting.
Luckily, the Mediterranean species are harder to pyramid then most other species.
When you do share your care, be sure to mention where you live. Someone in say dry AZ needs to do things differently then say humid FL. Location can make a big difference in care and many people don't take that into account.

 

[wellington]

Just keep in mind. Once they do start to pyramid, it's harder to stop then to not let it begin.

 

[MotherofDragons]

It looks as though you may be getting the beginnings of pyramiding, especially on the tortoise at the right of the last photo. The vertebral scutes appear to be becoming slightly raised.

Maybe you could consider using the closed chamber technique for the new trio and compare the results a year from now.

That is Hera and I've noticed she has been developing slightly differently. I have suspected she might be getting the starts of pyramiding as well. It's one of those, all in the same conditions, but she is different. The one next to her/in the middle is Hades. He has almost inverted scutes, the opposite. She is the darkest in color and likes to hide more than the other two.

 

[MotherofDragons]

@zovick @wellington

I just double checked the after pictures of the close-up tortoise to see which "female" that is and it is actually Hera, the one all the way to the right soaking.

She confuddles me. She can appear smooth, but also like she has just the start of pyramiding.

 

[zovick]

@zovick @wellington

I just double checked the after pictures of the close-up tortoise to see which "female" that is and it is actually Hera, the one all the way to the right soaking.

She confuddles me. She can appear smooth, but also like she has just the start of pyramiding.

It is pyramiding. Take it from an unbiased observer. It isn't that bad (as of yet), but it is there.

 

[MotherofDragons]

I understand why everyone here has strong feelings about Closed Chambers. I also believe that TFO sometimes collectively is unable to imagine anything else working and shuts people down. I have an incredible enclosure, and your comments @wellington that my pictures of my tortoises (whom you and Zovick both say just has just the very start of pyramiding in the slightest) are proof of failure or that it doesn't work is a bold statement I disagree with. I mean you said they looked great and then in another thread called the same photos "proof" what I do doesn't work. I agree I can make an adjustment, and had been considering one before I posted. I did more reading again on pyramiding. The TFO (and Tom) consensus is that it is generally cosmetic especially when minor and not harmful; Tom has stated he has raised healthy tortoises with pyramiding. So this slight start of pyramiding in the midst of a 100d summer in exchange for the extra vitality and health I feel my tortoises receive being raised more naturally is something I accept. I don't think they are less healthy for it.

What if I told you... I live in inland Southern California, in practically the desert and these are outdoor babies. I don't soak daily as Chris doesn't recommend it. I DO think that is the mistake in my care, and that is what I intend to change. I think if my babies received daily soaks they would not show any degree of pyramiding. This is something I have been considering before coming here, because even my "biased" eye was suspicious we had the start of pyramiding especially on Hera. Hades on the opposite end has none I can see. There are many anecdotes here of tortoises raised the same, with the same food, exhibiting individual growth characteristics and I've noticed this in my own.

The bottom line is I am not reinventing the wheel. I AM following guidelines for raising my species by other TFO recommended breeders- it is Chris Leone's care guide at the top of the Greek section, and I follow it extensively. I raise my babies according to how Testudo breeders raise them. Garden State Tortoise, Tortoise Supply, Arizona Tortoise Compound... TFO recommends these people to buy babies from and then discounts them like a grandparent who loves their grandkids, but is sure you aren't raising them right. I thought about just dropping this and not posting any further pictures because I am in the sensitive camp, but since I received a private message I will just post here. I know there must be someone who is interested in raising their babies outdoors who would be interested in a different perspective, the perspective that is always shushed here.

I specifically chose the hardiest species of Testudo graeca ibera that handle the highest highs, and lowest lows, to have a tortoise that would thrive in my climate. People have different views on doing things. Put me in the natural camp. I like to raise my animals naturally. I've read many interesting debates here about the use of words natural and wild, what they mean, how they apply and don't to captive raising. I'm not the average newbie, who just stubbornly doesn't want to see things your way. I don't speak in absolutes and I don't think there is one way to do anything. What works for you is great, but that doesn't mean I have to do it that way or I'm wrong.

I don't believe there is any substitute for the sun, for natural behaviors, for mental stimulation. Exercise that is more than climbing over each other, and actual spaces for them to explore. Just this week I sprayed down my tortoises mid-day and cannot describe to you the absolute joy and pleasure of watching them come out of hiding, my little Hades dipping his head down to drink from a dried up loquat leaf. Watching them interact with their space in natural ways is just incredible. Some closed chambers are the saddest, ugliest things I have ever seen. You can't convince me that tiny amount of pyramiding, which i hope will stop with daily soaks, is worth compromising what are other important facets of health and just as important their quality of life.

I may be new to tortoises, but I have long-held beliefs that humans in their arrogance try to improve on nature and often fail and make things worse (I'm thinking largely human healthcare here, but apply it to any facet of society or animal-keeping). The reptile industry, which I do not know well as many of you, has evidence of this also. We always think we are doing the best thing, to find we are not. It's only "right" until the next person makes a discovery in 10 years. I think raising outdoors helps mitigate some of this unknown.

In reading on TFO last night I found an old quote from a member that had said something about ideal: "An indoor tortoise is never in their ideal conditions." I believe this statement accurately describes how I prefer to raise my animals. I will choose outdoors when I can.

 

[MotherofDragons]

This is a hydroponic tub with holes drilled in it for drainage. It is filled with topsoil to allow burrowing 4-6"+ depending on area, can't quite remember if I added sand. My babies skipped their first brumation, spending roughly late Oct- late April indoors. Other than that they've spent all their time outside in this enclosure. The plants are native weeds, overgrown beautifully in summer to provide a dense canopy. The tortoises spend their time beneath, and also climb IN the foliage. They also climb and bask on the cork cave. There is a terracotta water dish beneath the canopy in front of their cave. The entire perimeter has a walking path, and there is a path that cuts across from the water dish to their cave, which is open on both ends. I simulate rain daily morning or night (depending on the substrate moisture) in this heat with a hose spray down that saturates the top layers of topsoil and greatly increases the humidity in their canopy. Mid-Day I like to go out with my 1gal weed-type sprayer with water to spray a strong mist on the tortoises and iguanas. At this point they all come out in response to the water and resume eating for a stint. The babies burrow themselves down in the moist substrate to sleep, most adorably and very well. It can be a challenge to find them.

They can get away from each other, they have visual barriers, they can graze, they have obstacles to increase their muscle strength and stimulate them. They are nowhere near dry and their substrate is never allowed to dry out more than the top 1/2" this time of year. I don't believe I have seen anything quite like this on TFO. The plastic sides warm up the soil, provide shade, and aid in keeping moisture inside the enclosure.



The canopy is dense, but there is still spaces to walk beneath, perimeter path shown here disappearing into canopy.


A well-hidden burrow dug by one of my girls under Purslane on the Eastern side of tub. As the sun rises she slowly unburies herself, turns around and pokes her head out. As the day progresses she comes out to eat in morning. This is also the last place the sun touches as it goes down. One of mine prefers to burrow under the cave.



How many tortoises do you see? Straight ahead of the obvious tort is a butt in the forest.


The canopy is reduced occasionally to keep it overhead the water dish, for increased humidity, and a walkway available. You can see the tortoises take full advantage of their forest in the heat of the day. When I spray it it's even nicer in there for them.



A tortoise level view.



Lower leaves have been chomped, This is a well-used corner though. The tortoises will climb under/over the branches and hide down here. I feel like it gives them great exercise. Everyone can find their own humid corner because 2/3 of the enclosure essentially is a living humid hide.



A plant on the dry side that offers some shade near their eating stone. Look closely. Hera is in the base of that plant. Hades is on his way to make a left turn to go under/behind the corkbark cave.


Hera, I still see you.

 

[wellington]

Your tortoises do look great but I also said some pyramiding looked to be starting. Tortoises can look great even if they have pyramiding. I think my tortoises look great and they are badly pyramided.
I didn't get to join this forum after the pyramiding was figured out. At my time, there was no closed chamber and the mvb was the best lighting ever made.
Before joining this forum, all that was seen were pyramided tortoises. Hell, I thought that's how they were suppose to be.
Now that it's been figured out, at least one way, why not. After all, unless you own a native to your area species, your outside is really not natural!
Also what you may have forgotten is your area compared to the area of the people you are listening too. Doesn't mean you have to go closed chamber if you really don't want too. But it does mean you have to make changes to what info you are following.
Upping the humidity more and offering a humid hide might stop the pyramiding. Keep in mind though, the few that likes to keep their young ones outside in very humid FL still get pyramiding.
Fingers crossed that you can make it work.
The difference may be your doing it outside and not inside on an open table. Time will tell.

 

[MotherofDragons]

Your tortoises do look great but I also said some pyramiding looked to be starting. Tortoises can look great even if they have pyramiding. I think my tortoises look great and they are badly pyramided.
I didn't get to join this forum after the pyramiding was figured out. At my time, there was no closed chamber and the mvb was the best lighting ever made.
Before joining this forum, all that was seen were pyramided tortoises. Hell, I thought that's how they were suppose to be.
Now that it's been figured out, at least one way, why not. After all, unless you own a native to your area species, your outside is really not natural!
Also what you may have forgotten is your area compared to the area of the people you are listening too. Doesn't mean you have to go closed chamber if you really don't want too. But it does mean you have to make changes to what info you are following.
Upping the humidity more and offering a humid hide might stop the pyramiding. Keep in mind though, the few that likes to keep their young ones outside in very humid FL still get pyramiding.
Fingers crossed that you can make it work.
The difference may be your doing it outside and not inside on an open table. Time will tell.

Did you post this before or after I put up pictures? I am aware that differences in climate require adjustments. Care guides are a starting point, not end all be all. I will be soaking daily from now on.

Tortoise Supply is located in Nevada which is arguably the closest anyone can get to my climate. They have raised babies outdoors also, though they also do indoors open tubs. Unfortunately Tyler has not written guides to be able to truly piece together how he raises his babies. I think he gave up trying to argue with people here, but that's just speculation. I do know that he doesn't use or advocate closed chambers for Testudo, it's posted on their website:

"We don't use the "closed chamber" method (keeping airflow very restricted to increase humidity to the point that clouds form in the enclosure). It is very risky if/when temperatures get below about 80, and mold, shell rot, and respiratory problems become a lot more common in those conditions. We keep them open top in the warm area, and enclosed, warm and humid within the hide (like they would be in the wild). They are free to choose the conditions, temperatures, and humidity levels they want within that setup."

In an old post Tyler says:

"Some of the best looking, strongest babies I've ever had were the ones that hatched in their outdoor enclosures that I didn't find for a few months. They look absolutely perfect, and we are obviously in a hot, dry climate with essentially no humidity (less natural rainfall than almost any other city in the US). They don't die two months later from 'chronic dehydration.'"

It's not all about the location of the people I am listening to. Let's not forget the importance of what species the people I am listening to are actually breeding and rearing. I will defer to the Testudo breeders who overwhelmingly appear to have their own consensus that while humidity is important, a closed chamber is not the proper way to house this species.

 

[Yvonne G]

In my opinion things I read on the net are to be taken as suggestions, not DO-THIS-OR-DIE! (or your animal will die)

I'll try something if it sounds reasonable and if it works I keep it. I used open topped enclosures for years and I raised some pretty badly pyramided tortoises.

When the "closed chamber" notion started making the rounds I was willing to try it, but being poor, and not able to afford buying an expensive enclosure I started experimenting with covering my open topped, already in use, enclosures.

Bit by bit I started seeing that it was much easier to maintain warmth and humidity in a covered enclosure. So this is one tip I took to heart.

I've never had greeks, but I've raised some absolutely smooth russians in the closed enclosure. But I didn't put my fresh-out-of-the-egg baby russians in a closed enclosure because I was told to. I actually didn't believe this species required it. No, I set them up that way because it's just the easiest way to maintain the correct temperature for babies. And I don't keep their enclosure nearly as humid as I do for, for instance, my leopard babies.

Bottom line - Make your own decision. Accept it or don't.

 

[MotherofDragons]

In my opinion things I read on the net are to be taken as suggestions, not DO-THIS-OR-DIE! (or your animal will die)

Unfortunately sometimes this is the exact thing people are implying. Do it this way, or your tortoise is doomed and you're a terrible person.

Look at the other thread again, I said I do things differently than Tom. Before @wellington even asked how I raised my tortoises he said, "If it's wrong why wouldn't you change or improve it?" The assumption here is that if I do not do it the way Tom feels is best, I am automatically wrong and a sub-par owner. They are not the only one here who push this view. It literally reinforced the point the OP made in that thread, Tom is not the only expert.

 

[wellington]

Unfortunately sometimes this is the exact thing people are implying. Do it this way, or your tortoise is doomed and you're a terrible person.

Look at the other thread again, I said I do things differently than Tom. Before @wellington even asked how I raised my tortoises he said, "If it's wrong why wouldn't you change or improve it?" The assumption here is that if I do not do it the way Tom feels is best, I am automatically wrong and a sub-par owner. They are not the only one here who push this view. It literally reinforced the point the OP made in that thread, Tom is not the only expert.

No, she Wellington, not he!

 

[wellington]

No, she Wellington, not he!

Just be sure to keep us posted on how your way goes. Most people either stop sharing how things are going or don't share all that needs to be shared in order for anyone to do the same and then some just can't see that they are wrong, well they usually disappear instead of admitting it.

 

[wellington]

Unfortunately sometimes this is the exact thing people are implying. Do it this way, or your tortoise is doomed and you're a terrible person.

Look at the other thread again, I said I do things differently than Tom. Before @wellington even asked how I raised my tortoises he said, "If it's wrong why wouldn't you change or improve it?" The assumption here is that if I do not do it the way Tom feels is best, I am automatically wrong and a sub-par owner. They are not the only one here who push this view. It literally reinforced the point the OP made in that thread, Tom is not the only expert.

I wasn't assuming you were doing it wrong. However, you are not well into owning tortoises, the many threads on how closed enclosures work and open top doesn't yet and that the proof is in many threads, why wouldn't anyone follow what they know works compared to what is being just told to you? What proof did they share with you? I'd love to see it.
Even with confirmed pyramiding and you still standing by their/your way.

 

[Yvonne G]

I wasn't assuming you were doing it wrong. However, you are not well into owning tortoises, the many threads on how closed enclosures work and open top doesn't yet and that the proof is in many threads, why wouldn't anyone follow what they know works compared to what is being just told to you? What proof did they share with you? I'd love to see it.
Even with confirmed pyramiding and you still standing by their/your way.

To answer your question, because everyone has free will. Even with God and the 10 commandments - we have free will and it's up to us to try something new or not. It really needs to be stressed that what we say here is suggestions. Yes, Tom and others have shown that their way works, but still, we suggest you give it a try, but it's up to you whether you do or not. And WE WILL NOT COME DOWN ON YOU OR BERATE YOU OR SAY "I TOLD YOU SO!" if you don't go our way and it doesn't work for you.

We, the whole Forum as a group, need to change OUR mind set. We can offer suggestions, show our proof on whether or not it works, but everyone who reads our posts is free to try it or not and we have to just bite our collective tongues and let it alone.

 

[wellington]

To answer your question, because everyone has free will. Even with God and the 10 commandments - we have free will and it's up to us to try something new or not. It really needs to be stressed that what we say here is suggestions. Yes, Tom and others have shown that their way works, but still, we suggest you give it a try, but it's up to you whether you do or not. And WE WILL NOT COME DOWN ON YOU OR BERATE YOU OR SAY "I TOLD YOU SO!" if you don't go our way and it doesn't work for you.

We, the whole Forum as a group, need to change OUR mind set. We can offer suggestions, show our proof on whether or not it works, but everyone who reads our posts is free to try it or not and we have to just bite our collective tongues and let it alone.

And for the most part it usually does go that way after a few posts have pasted. If they ask or post pics to brag and things are wrong, it should be the responsibility of this forum to educate, not just blow smoke up their you know what. This person said it, so have the ****s to show it. Then be able to handle the truth! In this case, it's not working! Can things be changed to improve and not closed chamber being the only fix no. But at least admit it's not working.

 

[MotherofDragons]

And for the most part it usually does go that way after a few posts have pasted. If they ask or post pics to brag and things are wrong, it should be the responsibility of this forum to educate, not just blow smoke up their you know what. This person said it, so have the ****s to show it. Then be able to handle the truth! In this case, it's not working! Can things be changed to improve and not closed chamber being the only fix no. But at least admit it's not working.

I said an adjustment should be made, said where I felt I made a mistake AND what I planned to do to change it.

You just seem to want to argue. I posted my pictures. You keep carrying on about minor pyramiding that has "just started" and which I intend fully to address. Maybe go look again close up on those tortoises before you keep proclaiming this absolutely doesn't work. Definitely re-read what I said. I soak my tortoises 1x a week, not even always that.

Truth is a matter of perspective, and you can't see past yours.

The truth is, you won't be satisfied unless I say that open-tops/outdoor rearing don't work, or have pictures years from now proving they did not get ugly pyramided. If my daily soaking doesn't make a difference, I will re-evaluate and reconsider whether this is a fail. I'm trying to provide the best for my tortoises, not prove a point to a stranger. Still the over-emphasis and tunnel-vision in regards to pyramiding in the face of other arguably equally important parts of care is mind-boggling. There is no interest in the fact that this *could* work, with daily soaking. How truly sad.

 

[Gijoux]

View attachment 348729

View attachment 348730

This is a hydroponic tub with holes drilled in it for drainage. It is filled with topsoil to allow burrowing 4-6"+ depending on area, can't quite remember if I added sand. My babies skipped their first brumation, spending roughly late Oct- late April indoors. Other than that they've spent all their time outside in this enclosure. The plants are native weeds, overgrown beautifully in summer to provide a dense canopy. The tortoises spend their time beneath, and also climb IN the foliage. They also climb and bask on the cork cave. There is a terracotta water dish beneath the canopy in front of their cave. The entire perimeter has a walking path, and there is a path that cuts across from the water dish to their cave, which is open on both ends. I simulate rain daily morning or night (depending on the substrate moisture) in this heat with a hose spray down that saturates the top layers of topsoil and greatly increases the humidity in their canopy. Mid-Day I like to go out with my 1gal weed-type sprayer with water to spray a strong mist on the tortoises and iguanas. At this point they all come out in response to the water and resume eating for a stint. The babies burrow themselves down in the moist substrate to sleep, most adorably and very well. It can be a challenge to find them.

They can get away from each other, they have visual barriers, they can graze, they have obstacles to increase their muscle strength and stimulate them. They are nowhere near dry and their substrate is never allowed to dry out more than the top 1/2" this time of year. I don't believe I have seen anything quite like this on TFO. The plastic sides warm up the soil, provide shade, and aid in keeping moisture inside the enclosure.

View attachment 348731

The canopy is dense, but there is still spaces to walk beneath, perimeter path shown here disappearing into canopy.
View attachment 348737

A well-hidden burrow dug by one of my girls under Purslane on the Eastern side of tub. As the sun rises she slowly unburies herself, turns around and pokes her head out. As the day progresses she comes out to eat in morning. This is also the last place the sun touches as it goes down. One of mine prefers to burrow under the cave.

View attachment 348736

How many tortoises do you see? Straight ahead of the obvious tort is a butt in the forest.
View attachment 348734

The canopy is reduced occasionally to keep it overhead the water dish, for increased humidity, and a walkway available. You can see the tortoises take full advantage of their forest in the heat of the day. When I spray it it's even nicer in there for them.

View attachment 348735

A tortoise level view.

View attachment 348741

Lower leaves have been chomped, This is a well-used corner though. The tortoises will climb under/over the branches and hide down here. I feel like it gives them great exercise. Everyone can find their own humid corner because 2/3 of the enclosure essentially is a living humid hide.

View attachment 348738

A plant on the dry side that offers some shade near their eating stone. Look closely. Hera is in the base of that plant. Hades is on his way to make a left turn to go under/behind the corkbark cave.
View attachment 348739

Hera, I still see you.
View attachment 348740

I love your set up. It is providing another beautiful way to provide a great environment for these tortoises. Doing things differently doesn't always mean it is wrong. When it is really wrong it should be changed. I can't speak for @Tom, but I hope he gets an opportunity to give you his thoughts about your set up. I also live in Southern California on the way to Palm Springs, so I understand the local temperatures. Not everybody is lucky enough to be living in a part of the country with such nice temperatures. This beautiful set up would not work in Alaska or Boulder Colorado for a good part of the year. When Tom is giving recommendations, we must remember that he is taking into account that people reading his posts will live in all different types of weather conditions, so he is going to suggest what will work for everybody no matter where they live. I admit I don't know anything about raising this type of tortoise, but I am wondering how do you keep the temperature warm enough on cooler days and nights (<75-80℉), especially when they were hatchlings? How big is that Hydroponic tub? Will they need more room to roam when they are adults or is this a type of tortoise that will always be able to stay in this tub? I would like to know where you got your topsoil? I have done a deep dive into studying "topsoils" and don't trust any commercial sources. How often, or do you have to replant your tub? Are they primarily eating everything growing in the tub? I'm just curious, but have you used a solar meter to check what UV is coming through the wire top? It looks like it should be OK. What is the humidity/temp down at the level of where your tortoises stay? Your tortoises look beautiful and even Tom has stated that he has seen some tortoises, that despite having every parameter set perfectly, will still have some pyramiding. Our experience has been that most pyramiding happens as a result of improper heating, lighting & humidity of the tortoise during the first few months of life. We have to admit that in the wild, hatchlings will stay primarily underground living in environments much like you have created, were they will be safe. If you can keep those parameters in your particular set up, then even Tom would say you have nothing to worry about. Many of us thought tortoises were just supposed to be pyramided. Most of us learned from Tom that pyramiding wasn't natural. Thank you for sharing your babies and your set up.