sometimes i want to cry

I only hate people when they start out saying "you'll hate me for this" or some such LOL .

That's the new Mazuri no doubt. In science every atom has a name, and every molecule has a name based on nomenclature, for the atoms its made up from.

I think what the big animal food companies do is build a bridge between economical/inexpensive sources of things, and the matrix of the nutrients the animal ought to get. So the idea is find out what the good diet is, find the stuff we can get, and bridge those lists. I'ts not bad just because they use components that meet nutritional needs.

However I in no way shape or form agree with the simplistic stochiometric way that diets like that are made. There are too many nutrients that the FDA does not recognize, not many scientists to say "hey there' eat these and you'll be fine". There are many macro-nutrients not satisfied by that kind of mentality.

This is fully evidenced by the disparity in diet based diseases around the world and what people eat.

One additional problem, and this too has been well documented is that tons/acre yield does not equal nutrients per acre yield. More tons per acres yield about the same density of nutrients so you have to eat more just to be as nourished. And we select for sweetness over most any other criteria so what we buy in the grocery store is okay, but not great.

Good grist for the TFO mill here.

One thing I am often perplexed about..

Why do so many always advocate the tremendous value of offering foods and/or environmental conditions "like they have in the wild"?

In the wild, far less than one hatchling out of 100 will make it to become an adult tortoise. Many lost to predation, but most lost to bad climatic conditions at the wrong time, and far more to malnutrition and food scarcity in the areas they were born, the years they were born. Most of the foods they eat are often very poor nutritionally, most of the year, and they have to seek out as many sources as possible to survive. They resort to geophagy, coprophagia, and scavenging carcasses to get a more complete diet. And after all that, almost every one of them will die - not produce more eggs, more fertility, more clutches!

THAT makes me want to cry!

I'll veer a little bit from the crowd. While your listing of many vitamins and minerals as "chemicals" was false, and your view of people who use commercial diets was a bit naive, your heart may have been in the right place. Undoubtedly, one with enough passion, who is willing to spend the money and do the research, could come up with a better formula. Being that Mazuri, or any other brand, is a for-profit company, they absolutely do not use "great" quality staples in their diets. Obviously wheat, soy, and corn are among the cheapest. And further, I'd guess that the zoological company doesn't get the cream of the crop. That being said, these are what we've got and while they aren't "great", they have been especially helpful in providing vitamins and minerals to tortoises and keeping them at a consistent weight throughout winter.

If I'm going to analyze commercial diets, it seems only fair to analyze the supermarkets. As Will pointed out, the way we manage farm land aids in less nutrient dense foods. In addition to the density of fields, are the facts that we plant in monocultures, till the soil, fail to rebuild soil, have bred the "wildness" (including nutrient density) out of our crops, insist on planting annual crops, and use an incredible load of pesticides. Time will tell what GMOs do to our bodies, as there haven't been any long term (lifelong) studies. What we do know is that they haven't increased crop yields as they were promised to. Anyway, all of these things have created a less nutritious, less sustaining crop that cannot mimic what we or a tortoise might find in the wild. You might say that you feed solely weeds (bravo), but you would still have the issue of variety and knowledge of which plants should be fed to constitute a well balanced diet. We don't have the nutrient analysis of every weed, leaf, and flower. Even then, you'd be hard pressed to consistently collect the necessary plants and feed them in appropriate amounts.

So, in response to this lack of ideal choices, most of us use both. I use Mazuri a couple times a week. Not that we shouldn't still strive for variety, but even the best captive diets must be supplemented.

Look at the state of the world. People hardly care for themselves. How many people do you know who are comitted to a nutrient rich diet supplemented with the necessary remedies? It's ridiculous to expect people to feed a tortoise a perfect diet, when most can't be bothered to stop drinking soda.

Lastly, just because you haven't heard of it doesn't mean that it is unhealthy. A little annoying to read a lecture from someone who couldn't be bothered to look up what calcium carbonate is...

KevinGG said:

If I'm going to analyze commercial diets, it seems only fair to analyze the supermarkets. As Will pointed out, the way we manage farm land aids in less nutrient dense foods.

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And no one here has mentioned the food increase yield of raising for our own food, crickets. Putting down a soda? How about eating a morning bowl of super crunchy-super food, crickets?

Ingredients Timothy Hay (ok, go pick some fresh grass of the lawn - mission accomplished),

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Most lawn grasses are not selected for nutritional value. They are bred to make pretty lawns and parks, which means fine blades, good color, traffic resistance, poor soil tolerance, and more recently, drought tolerance.

Fiber content, digestibility, protein and a calcium levels are often a focus of pasture grass but are usually selected for the needs of mammals (horses, cattle, sheep). I peripherally listen to old farmers talk about pasture grasses and there are plenty of strong opinions on the best varieties. Tortoise needs are different but the upshot is not all grasses are created equal.

Not to mentioned most lawn grasses are treated with pesticides, herbicides, and over-fertilized.

As a human. I an also consuming many chemicals as I cannot afford organic food. I don't have a choice

seanang168 said:

As a human. I am also consuming many chemicals as I cannot afford organic food. I don't have a choice

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I, too wish we were given more choices for our own foods. When you start going down the various rabbit holes in the food industry, it gets depressing and overwhelming real fast!

I have always thought of corn, soy and wheat as more of fillers for food. I know tortoises are very different from dogs and humans, but it just feels natural to me to avoid giving these things to my tort as well.

I started a thread of my own about this and Tom kindly directed me to this thread.

I've read of people using a sprinkling of centrum complete on a few meals a week. Is it possible to avoid feeding Mazuri while feeding a healthy variety of the recommended grasses/greens/flowers/weeds?

I wouldn't use a human multivitamin for tortoises, as the ratio of vitamins has been optimized for humans, not tortoises. You can buy tortoise-friendly multivitamins if you feel your diet is lacking.

Feeding Mazuri is 100% unnecessary.
It is used (by myself) as a go to food during times that either other foods or my time are in short supply.
I've been using it since 1987 to the best of my memory and have come to trust it.
However, if I stopped using it today I'm sure my tortoises would be just fine.
I have a huge variety of foods at my disposal very regularly.
Suplementing with Mazuri is a choice. Not a requirement.
I would also not feed human vitamins.

ZEROPILOT said:

Feeding Mazuri is 100% unnecessary.
It is used (by myself) as a go to food during times that either other foods or my time are in short supply.
I've been using it since 1987 to the best of my memory and have come to trust it.
However, if I stopped using it today I'm sure my tortoises would be just fine.
I have a huge variety of foods at my disposal very regularly.
Suplementing with Mazuri is a choice. Not a requirement.
I would also not feed human vitamins.

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Agreed on all counts.

I think it is a good supplemental food for many situations, but it is by no means "necessary".

ExtraSpicyKimchi said:

Is it possible to avoid feeding Mazuri while feeding a healthy variety of the recommended grasses/greens/flowers/weeds?

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I've thought about this often myself.

Certainly you can feed just the variety of plants; tortoises don't stumble into a bowl of Mazuri in the wild. But finding and feeding a good variety of foods all year long--especially for those in cold climates who don't hibernate their tortoises--is not that simple. What if they have a larger tortoise, like a leopard, or goodness, multiple tortoises!

Love the nutritional information on the banana up thread!

I am all for ensuring a healthy tort! Thanks for the feedback and for providing confidence in feeding Mazuri as another go-to option of sustenance to create more of a variety and when in a pinch during the slower growing seasons.

Unfortunately in Germany I can`t buy Mazuri. I would try to feed it to my torts as a complement to their normal diet.

Bee62 said:

Unfortunately in Germany I can`t buy Mazuri. I would try to feed it to my torts as a complement to their normal diet.

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In Europe the Mazuri brand cannot be used. However it is rebranded and sold under the Nutrazu brand Same exact thing just a European brand.

the Turtle Shepherd said:

everyone loves you , Tom, please... do not bite my head off

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I don't think there's any biting going on. And I might be wrong but I don't think Tom is worried if people like him or not.
I understand how you feel about natural versus man-made foods for your tortoise. I feel that way too. But I also realize that sometimes supplementing with the man-made tortoise diets can help fill in some gaps that you just can't make up on your own from your weeds and plants growing around your house. I grow weeds and plants for my tortoises year round, which includes setting up something in the house for the winter time. But I also grind up zoo med tortoise food and mazuri and sprinkle it on the greens A couple times a week or so. I try hard to provide a huge variety for my tortoises. And these products add to that.

The approach taken in the original post is a bit odd...

To the OP:

Firstly, your premise of "they wouldn't have it in the wild, so they shouldn't have it at all" is kinda faulty. Yes, its best to replicate their natural habitat, but do you wish for me to import fruit,grasses,vegetation from South America? And more importantly, there is no reason to think substitutions can not be made with equal results. All plants have the same basic composition, so odds are the animal very well could benefit from a foreign food item, not native to their natural habitat. Of course this takes trial and error in the beginning, but where is your proof that every non-natural/foreign foods are unhealthy? - I've heard this argument before, and its kinda annoying how little thought is really put into it.

Secondly. Any time you post a list of chemicals "found in food" its going to look scary for the common person, so I sense an agenda there too (especially since there was no analytical work done in the original post). Every food on this planet contains chemicals. The goal is to find out which ones are good and bad for the species. You kinda did neither...