Need help regarding gravid Indian Star tortoise

JoesMum

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Not me! I received the following as a Private Message from @Rony khade, but feel it would be better as a thread... partly because I have no experience whatsoever with gravid torts!

Over to you experts
Hey,
Guys hello to everyone on the forum I actually need help regarding my indian star tortoises it's been about 2 months since they mate and female happens to be gravid the eggs are felt by palpation
I actually wanted to know how would it take for her to lay eggs..??
She dug a test hole for about 30 min with her fore limbs 2 days back but didn't repeated that behaviour again
She is healthy and has shell length of 9 inches and basking under a UVB lamp in a appropriate nesting box
But
There isn't any facility for an X-ray here please help should go for an oxytocin injection or wait for some few days more
 

Markw84

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@Rony khade
a female will normally take about 4-5 weeks to completely form an egg ready to lay. It can then certainly go a month or more waiting for the right conditions to actually nest. So you are not out of the normal range of egg retention. I use two types of clues to determine if a female is ready to lay. Behavioral and palpitation. Behavioral is the biggest clue. The female will become much more active than normal, constantly pacing her enclosure and testing spots for suitability to lay. She will often dig test holes, but I refer to holes where she is actually digging the nest chamber with her HIND legs as a test hole. She will scratch at the surface with her front legs and look like she is smelling the ground. She is testing for temperature and humidity to find a spot to her liking. Only if satisfied will she start digging with her hind legs. It sounds like your female is not finding a suitable nesting site to her liking.

Palpitation will tell me for sure if the female is carrying fully formed eggs. If you can actually feel the eggs with your finger in the opening in front of the hind legs, you do know she has eggs. Since you can feel eggs, an X-ray would only confirm the number and how low in the tract they are sitting.

At this point I would do everything I could to offer a good choice of nesting sites. I would not induce laying yet at this stage. Focus on giving her a good nesting site. Perhaps a picture of your enclosure and the areas she has in which she could nest would be helpful in giving suggestions to you on how to improve that.

She will look for soil that is moist enough to hold its shape while digging, yet not too wet. The like to pick spots close to, or even under the overhang of a bush or plant. A slight slope sometimes helps going up to a bush.

@Neal @kingsley or others with breeding indian stars: any insights on how your indian stars choose nest sites and laying times?
 

Neal

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I don't have much to add to what Mark said, other than to emphasize that it is very unusual for a female to use forelimbs to a significant extent while nesting, so I am not sure that your observations indicate nesting behavior.

The restless behavior is the biggest cue I notice that they are ready to lay. Pacing back and forth and generally being more active than normal are what you should be on the lookout for. I try and soak the females for long periods of time when I suspect that they are preparing to nest, as they tend to expel a lot of fluids to help make the nest. In a lot of cases, I have seen females begin digging nests shortly after a long soak.

Take a good long look at your enclosure to make sure you have suitable nesting locations. They tend to like to back up against something, like a rock or a log, and they seem to prefer bare ground vs. rocky, heavily planted, or grassy areas.
 

PA2019

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This is great information! Thank you both for going into greater detail.
 

Rony khade

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@Rony khade
a female will normally take about 4-5 weeks to completely form an egg ready to lay. It can then certainly go a month or more waiting for the right conditions to actually nest. So you are not out of the normal range of egg retention. I use two types of clues to determine if a female is ready to lay. Behavioral and palpitation. Behavioral is the biggest clue. The female will become much more active than normal, constantly pacing her enclosure and testing spots for suitability to lay. She will often dig test holes, but I refer to holes where she is actually digging the nest chamber with her HIND legs as a test hole. She will scratch at the surface with her front legs and look like she is smelling the ground. She is testing for temperature and humidity to find a spot to her liking. Only if satisfied will she start digging with her hind legs. It sounds like your female is not finding a suitable nesting site to her liking.

Palpitation will tell me for sure if the female is carrying fully formed eggs. If you can actually feel the eggs with your finger in the opening in front of the hind legs, you do know she has eggs. Since you can feel eggs, an X-ray would only confirm the number and how low in the tract they are sitting.

At this point I would do everything I could to offer a good choice of nesting sites. I would not induce laying yet at this stage. Focus on giving her a good nesting site. Perhaps a picture of your enclosure and the areas she has in which she could nest would be helpful in giving suggestions to you on how to improve that.

She will look for soil that is moist enough to hold its shape while digging, yet not too wet. The like to pick spots close to, or even under the overhang of a bush or plant. A slight slope sometimes helps going up to a bush.

@Neal @kingsley or others with breeding indian stars: any insights on how your indian stars choose nest sites and laying times?
she was scratching the area just behind her where the soil is moist than the other spots in the box as the warmth of the lamp is comparitivily less there
its a cardboard box of 2ft X 4ft with some grass planted on one side but she is most comfortable with this sight and keeps scratching around that area
it's a bit slopy there
So guys is she egg bound or not..??

1512280580323935377333.jpg
 

Rony khade

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In this picture you Could see the slope there where she's being around from last 5 days

1512281162755-237867464.jpg
 

Rony khade

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She basks and just lies around there for the whole day n sniffing around the place in the picture
what do you guys say is it normal..??
There is a behavioural change in her as you guys said just like that
should I wait for some more days or go for oxytocin as I am worried about whether she is egg bound or not and there is no facility of x-ray in here
its been nearly 2 months
 

chin_lee

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I know you say the soil is moist but is it moist enough to hold the shape of the hole she digs? its looks a little dry in the pic but that could just be the surface.
its also a really small box for one of them..... not to mention for the two of them.
Is the male still trying to mate with the female? if so, i would remove the male and put into another box.
How deep is the soil? Then try to find a bigger box that can hold at least 8-10 of dirt for the female to dig down.
 

Rony khade

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I know you say the soil is moist but is it moist enough to hold the shape of the hole she digs? its looks a little dry in the pic but that could just be the surface.
its also a really small box for one of them..... not to mention for the two of them.
Is the male still trying to mate with the female? if so, i would remove the male and put into another box.
How deep is the soil? Then try to find a bigger box that can hold at least 8-10 of dirt for the female to dig down.
Yes the male is still trying to mate her but I have separated them it was a min or so they were together
the soil is 6 inches in depth and the soil moist throughout its depth and holds the shape when squeezed but it's not too wet and mulky
 

kingsley

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I would mound up some dirt in a corner Just 4 inches higher than the grade and pad it down . Remove the male for the time being and continue the water baths. She would use the base of the mound or the top of the mound to nest usually. Also if you notice her walking around and sniffing the ground on a regular basis , is a sign she is gravid. I have had first time females take a few weeks to nest, and the ova are very elongated the first couple of years. I would highly recommend a radiograph to make sure she is not egg bound. Oxytocin is another option.
 

Rony khade

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Thanks
I would mound up some dirt in a corner Just 4 inches higher than the grade and pad it down . Remove the male for the time being and continue the water baths. She would use the base of the mound or the top of the mound to nest usually. Also if you notice her walking around and sniffing the ground on a regular basis , is a sign she is gravid. I have had first time females take a few weeks to nest, and the ova are very elongated the first couple of years. I would highly recommend a radiograph to make sure she is not egg bound. Oxytocin is another option.
@kingsley I am going to surely try this out but I would like to mention this ad @Neal said to soak her for long I did the same yesterday and immediately after that she refused to eat and become very active n restless started sniffing the areas the whole day but since today she is just lieing under the lamp with her hind limbs stretched n basking
 

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kingsley

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Does your basking lamp any uv light or is it infrared ? If you do not have any UV in the the lighting , make sure you give her some direct sunlight. This goes for the male too, it is imperative they get UVB .
 

Rony khade

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Does your basking lamp any uv light or is it infrared ? If you do not have any UV in the the lighting , make sure you give her some direct sunlight. This goes for the male too, it is imperative they get UVB .
Yes yes it's an UVB lamp and she is basking really well thanks @kingsley for advice
 

Rony khade

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Thank you so much @JoesMum @kingsley @Neal @Markw84 @chin_lee guys all your suggestions helped me a lot and finally we had our first ever clutch of 4 egg
1 came out broken or broke after coming out
1 she broke while setting it up in soil
2 we removed from the nest
and I guess there are two more felt by palpation
so would she digg another nest to lay those ones again..???
 

Markw84

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@kingsley @Neal @Markw84 @chin_lee @JoesMum
Guys I've made incubator but what should be temperature n humidity for star tortoise eggs to hatch and how long is the incubation period..??
how to know they are fertile please help guys
Incubation should be at 30°-31° humidity 80% Probably about 90-100 days to hatch at that temperature. Read this through for more help'

https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/how-to-incubate-eggs-and-start-hatchlings.124266/

A second clutch of eggs is often laid about 4-5 weeks after the previous clutch. She should have laid all properly calcified eggs with the clutch. If you can still feel a solid, calcified egg(s) in her immediately after she laid, that could be a retention problem. @zovick ????
 

Neal

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I incubate at the temperatures and humidity Mark mentioned. You could candle them with a small flashlight. I usually notice them "chalking" after about a week. The eggs begin to appear opaque when candled. Veins will start to develop shortly thereafter in fertile eggs that are developing.
 

zovick

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Incubation should be at 30°-31° humidity 80% Probably about 90-100 days to hatch at that temperature. Read this through for more help'

https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/how-to-incubate-eggs-and-start-hatchlings.124266/

A second clutch of eggs is often laid about 4-5 weeks after the previous clutch. She should have laid all properly calcified eggs with the clutch. If you can still feel a solid, calcified egg(s) in her immediately after she laid, that could be a retention problem. @zovick ????

If eggs are still palpable and are not laid in the next day or so, it might be a good idea to give the tortoise some oxytocin to get them out before she becomes eggbound. Probably the availability of oxytocin to a tortoise owner in India is questionable, though I am not sure of that.

Can you get any oxytocin? You would need to give her (by injection) about 3-4 cc. of the normal strength solution which is 20 USP units per ml. Normally eggs will be laid in an hour or two. You must watch the female after giving it, as she will not dig a nest to lay the eggs, she will simply pass them out on the ground surface.

You can also use lutalyse, but that may not be available in India.
 

Rony khade

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@zovick I gave her 2 injections of the same dose but she didn't passed out any eggs ,
And they are palpable
 

zovick

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@zovick I gave her 2 injections of the same dose but she didn't passed out any eggs ,
And they are palpable

Are you sure that you are feeling eggs? You could possibly be feeling hard feces in the intestines. Has she been eating and defecating normally? You really need to radiograph the tortoise to know what to do.
 
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