What are long term consequences of cold nights on tortoises?

So in keeping with not letting my tort camp out at night in the winter, I'm wondering what exactly the long term consequences of cold nights are on a tortoise? As I said in a previous post, there are many people here in SoCal who never heat their tortoises, and they claim they are just fine. Since we can't seem to see any immediate effect of cold nights on them, what are the talking points in case I am able to convince those people that they are wrong? Is it digestive or?? And what do we consider a minimum nighttime temperature for those torts like mine who do like to "rough it" ?

This is just my guess. It's also from one night of my leopard getting cold, in a greenhouse that's in my basement so temp for the night was no lower then 65. One of the two got a runny nose and what I thought was going to be a uri. Luckily, because I'm not one of the owners that don't care enough to keep torts warm at night, I fixed the problem immediately on detection and cranked the heat higher then normal and all cleared up. The result if you would have been left to suffer those conditions on a nightly bases I'm sure would have been an uri and many hefty vet bills and/or death. Suffering for sure.
Careless animal care is animal abuse and neglect.
Now, if they endure those cold temps at night in their homeland then it would be fine, as long as they are provided the same materials needed that they may use in the wild. Burrow, thick bushes, etc.
My opinion with a little observation with cold and a leopard

yeah, what Wellington said. I would think it would cause upper respiratory infection, but what can you say if their tortoise hasn't gotten sick under these conditions.? All we can do is offer advice, but it isn't always welcome. And we can make sure we are taking care of our own torts.

@Ellie Mae,
Before I stumble into a response to your question, I have a question for you that is instrumental in a proper response. What specie of tortoise are you talkin about ?

If their tort gets parasites or any sickness that weakens their immune system then cold nights will quickly be an issue. Digestion issues can weaken their immune system if they're not getting the nutrients they need...they need heat to digest food but if it gets hot during the day that shouldn't be a big deal

I worry about that. I wonder if there is some kind of internal damage that we can't see and will have consequences years down the road. I've heard that dogs that live outdoors all the time don't live as long as indoor dogs, and dogs are better equipped to handle cold than tortoises.

Big Charlie said:

I've heard that dogs that live outdoors all the time don't live as long as indoor dogs, and dogs are better equipped to handle cold than tortoises.

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And dogs have that nifty internal heating system going on.

The biggest issue with a sulcata is if they cannot heat back up the next day to a temperature to allow metabolic functions to continue. They can be fairly cold tolerant overnight but that doesn’t mean it is at all optimal or desirable. With any food in the gut with metabolism stopped by cool temperature, you are setting up the conditions for enteritis to develop. The food will remain in the gut as metabolism cannot progress and movement through the tract is stopped. So the material will actually start to rot and develop infection. The cold temperatures also lower the immune system response making susceptibility to other diseases and respiratory problems a real possibility.

Many people who state their sulcata has no problem have often had others who did die. They end up with the most cold tolerant ones that survive. But that is no means an indication they are thriving. Putting an animal in sub optimal conditions when not necessary just because it can survive is not a valid justification in my mind. If it survives for 2, 10, or 20 years and then finally the odds catch up and it dies - does that meant they were just fine those previous years?

They do not hibernate/ brumate. They need core body temps in the mid 80’s to properly metabolize. Just because they have developed ways to survive short periods where their system get shut down does not mean it is good for them.

Oops, Cowboy Ken, am I not in the Sulcata forum?? If not I apologize, mine is a sulcata. I agree with Hutsie and Big Charlie that it must be something long term, as many tortoises live outside year round and are not getting immediate URI's. Even mine has spent more nights outside in the 2 years that I have had him with temps down to 50 than I should admit, but that is only when the days warm up to 70's and 80's. And he always seems fine. But this afternoon I shut the door to his "camp" and he reluctantly tromped into his heated apartment.

Mar

Markw84 said:

The biggest issue with a sulcata is if they cannot heat back up the next day to a temperature to allow metabolic functions to continue. They can be fairly cold tolerant overnight but that doesn’t mean it is at all optimal or desirable. With any food in the gut with metabolism stopped by cool temperature, you are setting up the conditions for enteritis to develop. The food will remain in the gut as metabolism cannot progress and movement through the tract is stopped. So the material will actually start to rot and develop infection. The cold temperatures also lower the immune system response making susceptibility to other diseases and respiratory problems a real possibility.

Many people who state their sulcata has no problem have often had others who did die. They end up with the most cold tolerant ones that survive. But that is no means an indication they are thriving. Putting an animal in sub optimal conditions when not necessary just because it can survive is not a valid justification in my mind. If it survives for 2, 10, or 20 years and then finally the odds catch up and it dies - does that meant they were just fine those previous years?

They do not hibernate/ brumate. They need core body temps in the mid 80’s to properly metabolize. Just because they have developed ways to survive short periods where their system get shut down does not mean it is good for them.

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I think you just posted while I was posting my reply. This is the explanation I was looking for, thank you for explaining it so thoroughly.

Unfortunately, I have experienced the effects of this first hand. Someone in my household turned off the tortoise's lamp every night so he could sleep. Bad idea. We keep our house at 68 degrees when we sleep, and my baby sulcata got upper respiratory. He, unfortunately, passed December 15, 2016. I just wanted you to know that you should never play around with not heating because it may cost you your tort's life.

Here in SoCal, for every one that I hear about that survives unnaturally cold temps, I hear about 10 that didn't. Sometimes its not an RI. Sometimes they just die for reasons unknown. I think the explanation from @Markw84 would explain most of these cases. If the people weren't willing to put up a heated shelter, they certainly aren't willing to pay for a necropsy to discover the specific COD.

I've seen so many die. I've literally watched grown men crying over this. So sad and so unnecessary.

Tom said:

Here in SoCal, for every one that I hear about that survives unnaturally cold temps, I hear about 10 that didn't. Sometimes its not an RI. Sometimes they just die for reasons unknown. I think the explanation from @Markw84 would explain most of these cases. If the people weren't willing to put up a heated shelter, they certainly aren't willing to pay for a necropsy to discover the specific COD.

I've seen so many die. I've literally watched grown men crying over this. So sad and so unnecessary.

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I coudn't agree more, it amazes me that people stubbornly wish to persist in insisting that heated shelters are unnecessary.

AudgePaudge said:

Unfortunately, I have experienced the effects of this first hand. Someone in my household turned off the tortoise's lamp every night so he could sleep. Bad idea. We keep our house at 68 degrees when we sleep, and my baby sulcata got upper respiratory. He, unfortunately, passed December 15, 2016. I just wanted you to know that you should never play around with not heating because it may cost you your tort's life.

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So sad. Mine is a large outdoor tortoise so temps not as critical but still he won't be camping out when temps dip.

Ellie Mae said:

Oops, Cowboy Ken, am I not in the Sulcata forum?? If not I apologize, mine is a sulcata.

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Howdy Ellie Mae,
The apology is all mine. I may have made a newbie to tortoises-type mistake as not bothering to read the full depth of your posts. You’re in that mysterious place of la-la-Land I’ve herd rumors of where the skies are always blue, and in the morning all is heard are the sweat chirping of song birds. Butterflies fill the air and there is nothing but great feelings of warmth in the air.
As a youngin growin’ up, I did most of it in the San Gabriel valley below Pasadena and we had a large, old local desert tortoise. Popeye was his name. He had made a real nice burrow all himself and since he was local, I’d not concerned myself with his care. Heckfire, I was in Jr.-SR. High School and there were plenty of girls for my attention. If, though I’d had a sulcata at the time, I’d made and insisted that it have a heated house. I’d have had the heat on a thermostat, but a heated house just the same.
Sulcata survive every year down in those parts without the luxury of a nice,dry and heated house. But for each of those that survive, unscientifically I’d figure out abouts 5 or so not making it and just written off as old age.
I’m in the Pacific Wonderland PNW (Pacific Northwest) now, the magical place of gray skies, almost daily rainfall, trees and moss, cold temperatures (for a sulcata) and the wonderful waking sound of rainfall. During this time I’ve had, and continue to have sulcata. Currently my charges are a 15ish sulcata and a 14 month old leopard tortoise. My current sulcata and all my past sulcatas have all lived outside year round once they were of proper size and age. Always a toasty, dry heated house. Mind ya, we don’t really have daily rain here; he took one lap around the house and went right back up the ramp to reheat! If at any time that tortoise had been under any danger of hyperthermia I would have intervened promptly. If snow is forecast, just leave em locked up temps proved to be just too cold this particular morning, even with all that sunshine.
Can they survive without a heated house in Southern California? Should they have to live without one? I think not.

All of that babbling of mine aside, you’ve received plenty of good, solid feedback from folks that are in the “know” and we are all lucky to still have them here to help us out.

A neighbor/ friend down the road has about 10 sulcatas. Once he found out that i was building a heated winter house and doing all this stuff he wondered why and questioned my tactics and this is why... He let's his sulcatas burrow and they retreat to the burrows during the winter months and during the hot months. (Temps here in az where i am have dropped to as low as 7 F, usually not below 20 though.) I mean these burrows are deep. He said sometimes he won't see them for months during the winter. Then when it warms up they come out. He's had them for about 15 years. Had a couple die from time to time I guess from burrows collapsing, fights, maybe the cold idk. He doesn't talk to much about the ones he has lost... Some people might get away with it from time to time but I won't risk it with our new family member/ son.

Hugo's Home said:

A neighbor/ friend down the road has about 10 sulcatas. Once he found out that i was building a heated winter house and doing all this stuff he wondered why and questioned my tactics and this is why... He let's his sulcatas burrow and they retreat to the burrows during the winter months and during the hot months. (Temps here in az where i am have dropped to as low as 7 F, usually not below 20 though.) I mean these burrows are deep. He said sometimes he won't see them for months during the winter. Then when it warms up they come out. He's had them for about 15 years. Had a couple die from time to time I guess from burrows collapsing, fights, maybe the cold idk. He doesn't talk to much about the ones he has lost... Some people might get away with it from time to time but I won't risk it with our new family member/ son.

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This story illustrates the point very well. I've said this many times. Your neighbor will tell you all about the ones that somehow survive for 15 years, but all the ones that died aren't really talked about much.

I don't think anyone would argue that some of them can survive the AZ winter in burrows, at least some of the time. What I will argue is whether or not this is good for them, and whether or not this is something they'd experience in their native range.

I can tell you what will happen to a old big tortoise that stays outside in the cold.
A very sad story:
https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/walkingrock-vs-the-grand-adventure.163720/#post-1571118

I was convinced some time ago that they need heat in winter, even in temperate climates, but I encounter people often that say "they're just fine, I just throw a blanket over them" so was looking for some talking points to enlighten them as to proper care. Heck, you could make me sleep outside every night to with just a blanket and I'd probably survive. But not well. But, I find most people believe what they want to believe. Kind of like evolution and climate change...