Yes, Virginia, there IS another pyramiding thread!

Yvonne G

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See? I can't build a wooden box closed chamber. My indoor tortoises have to live on my kitchen table. So I jury rig what I can to the best of my abilities.

I have plastic tubs that I close up with plastic film:

closed chamber 3-18-18-.jpg

This has worked just fine for the past couple years. . . that is, until this year.

I think the difference is that William, my tortoise partner, comes and gets the leopard babies within a week or two of them hatching. The box turtles and desert tortoises do very well in this type of "closed chamber" but the leopards? Not so well.

I have a leopard with aberrant scutes that hatched about a month ago and William isn't coming for a few more weeks. Moot point because I want to keep this one.

So he's in the tub on the kitchen table, all covered with plastic, and sitting in a swamp, with visible water showing through the substrate. He has a fluorescent UVB tube, BUT, and here's what I think is going wrong, I use a 60 watt black light for heat. Lately I've been turning the black light off during the day because enough heat comes off the tube to keep the inside of the tub warm enough, but I have it on all night. And this poor little month old baby is starting to pyramid!

leopard baby 3-18-18a.jpg leopard baby 3-18-18b.jpg leopard baby 3-18-18c.jpg

I have a small CHE (under 100 watts, but I can't remember the wattage) that I can substitute instead of the black light, but do you think that would be the same thing, far as causing pyramiding is concerned?
 

wellington

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Yes, it will probably do the same thing. You are talking my Samar problem and mine live in the same type enclosure. The difference is the light/heat. I use a mvb and Che's.
I think if you can sit that box inside another box and have all the heat going into the outer box and only the fluorescent uvb actually in the hatchling box it will work.
I'm hoping to not have any more eggs/hatchlings. However if I do, that is what I would try doing. I have only done the swamp closed high humidity enclosures for my few hatchlings and at least with leopards, it's not enough.
Oh, I also think a deep layer of damp leaf litter would help too. Them living more under it like in the wild. I added some to mine and they love hiding away.
 

Len B

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I stopped using incandescent bulbs and che's and started using what I call gentle heat, like heat pads and golden rods, which are low wattage.I use lamp dimmers to adjust how much wattage is needed to obtain the correct temperatures. You can place them anywhere you want,under on the sides or above.You can also use a lamp dimmer to adjust a incandescent bulb and a che down if you want.A while back I tried hanging a 12x12 ceramic below a che so the che would heat the tile which dispersed the heat instead of it directly heating the tortoise,it worked pretty good.A few years ago I started making heat pads using ceramic tiles, flex watt or self regulating heat tape to fit the situation I was setting up.Never had one fail.
 

Markw84

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Yes, there is a substantial difference between an incandescent night bulb and a CHE. I always advise people not use a black or red or blue night bulb for that reason. The incandescent style bulbs emit near-IR. A CHE emits mid-IR. It is the temperature of an object that defines the wavelength of the IR it emits. We, as warm blooded animals emit IR at our 98.6° it is a very far-IR. A CHE operates at about 400-600° and emits a mid-IR. An incandescent bulb's filament operates at about 4000° and emits near IR and some visible light. The shorter (Nearer) the wavelength, the more desiccating the IR.

Another issue is that the eye's lense can focus wavelenghts in the near-IR range even though they are a bit longer than we (or tortoises) can see. So these type night bulbs are also potentially dangerous as you can look at them and feel no need to look away as it seems to not be hurting your eye (retina). However, with the near-IR it is indeed focusing too much "light" (invisible IR) on the retina and can potentially burn the retina without you, or your tortoise feeling it.

A few thoughts about the pyramiding:

As we've discussed in other threads, I do feel as Barb mentions, leaf litter to bury in would be a help. I like how the overhanging fronds of pothos and boston Ivy that mine hide under whenever possible seems to help.

I also am thinking that maybe we keep our tortoises too clean!! With all the baths in nice clean water, we are constantly cleaning off the new keratin seams to maximize exposure to anything that could be desiccating. IN the wild, they are really pretty dirty most of the time. Especially young tortoises who are so constantly buried when possible. I'm not saying don't soak, I am becoming more and more intriqued with using coconut oil or "shell save" type applications to help protect the new keratin a bit more???????????????
 

wellington

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Yes, there is a substantial difference between an incandescent night bulb and a CHE. I always advise people not use a black or red or blue night bulb for that reason. The incandescent style bulbs emit near-IR. A CHE emits mid-IR. It is the temperature of an object that defines the wavelength of the IR it emits. We, as warm blooded animals emit IR at our 98.6° it is a very far-IR. A CHE operates at about 400-600° and emits a mid-IR. An incandescent bulb's filament operates at about 4000° and emits near IR and some visible light. The shorter (Nearer) the wavelength, the more desiccating the IR.

Another issue is that the eye's lense can focus wavelenghts in the near-IR range even though they are a bit longer than we (or tortoises) can see. So these type night bulbs are also potentially dangerous as you can look at them and feel no need to look away as it seems to not be hurting your eye (retina). However, with the near-IR it is indeed focusing too much "light" (invisible IR) on the retina and can potentially burn the retina without you, or your tortoise feeling it.

A few thoughts about the pyramiding:

As we've discussed in other threads, I do feel as Barb mentions, leaf litter to bury in would be a help. I like how the overhanging fronds of pothos and boston Ivy that mine hide under whenever possible seems to help.

I also am thinking that maybe we keep our tortoises too clean!! With all the baths in nice clean water, we are constantly cleaning off the new keratin seams to maximize exposure to anything that could be desiccating. IN the wild, they are really pretty dirty most of the time. Especially young tortoises who are so constantly buried when possible. I'm not saying don't soak, I am becoming more and more intriqued with using coconut oil or "shell save" type applications to help protect the new keratin a bit more???????????????
Maybe the use of dirt instead of the coir, wood chips, etc would be better too. Giving the mud covering on their shells. Then kept in a swamp like situation like Yvonne and I do and drinking water available, maybe we should only soaking every 2nd to 3rd day, instead of daily. With the hanging over plants you use or the wet leaf litter im now using, and the high humidity, they can't possibly need a daily soak. In our normal enclosures, coir and little to no plants or leaf litter, I'd say daily soaks are needed more. The indirect heat I think would help wonders too.
 

Yvonne G

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I stopped using incandescent bulbs and che's and started using what I call gentle heat, like heat pads and golden rods, which are low wattage.I use lamp dimmers to adjust how much wattage is needed to obtain the correct temperatures. You can place them anywhere you want,under on the sides or above.You can also use a lamp dimmer to adjust a incandescent bulb and a che down if you want.A while back I tried hanging a 12x12 ceramic below a che so the che would heat the tile which dispersed the heat instead of it directly heating the tortoise,it worked pretty good.A few years ago I started making heat pads using ceramic tiles, flex watt or self regulating heat tape to fit the situation I was setting up.Never had one fail.
So do you think that tile you sent me would do the job of heating the plastic tub? Should I stand it up against a wall, or lay it flat?
 

Yvonne G

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Well, I have plenty of leaves right now. I'll add some, and either change to the CHE or try the heated tile Len made for me.
 

Len B

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So do you think that tile you sent me would do the job of heating the plastic tub? Should I stand it up against a wall, or lay it flat?
No it wont heat a large area. I would lay it flat. It uses 16 watts and the maximum temp I could get out of it was 107F with no controller. If needed the temp can be reduced using the lamp dimmer and turning the wattage down.I used that tile under a sulcata hatchlings hide (Alex) to keep it warm at night with high humidity. She was taken outside daily and spent the day in a 9 square foot enclosure of tall grass and weeds that I could mist down to keep moisture up. She was brought back in each night. It worked out pretty good she had her first clutch of eggs before her 4th year and she made the TFO 2018 calendar.
 

Robber

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I have used a plastic covered setup with a dark bulb (75 or 100 watt even) at night and a MVB during day that sounds nowhere near as damp as yours and have had very little pyramiding with the three I raised in it. They have an inverted dishpan hide and big saucer dish, no moss, cypress that is never wet down - they just get a light mist in the morning. Only difference might be that the sides of my enclosure are much higher(2 ft), so maybe that's making a big difference.
 

MichaelS

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Along with the above suggested lighting and heatings strategies, I would like to add sufficient calcium to the equation. Don't forget that when raising hatchlings in a hot humid environment we are simulating the monsoon season in their native range which typically lasts only a few month. This coupled with high quality and abundant food given daily, we are seeing rapid growth all year long in many/most of these hot/humid hatchlings. I don't see any problem with this as these hatchlings are thriving at a much greater rate then the old hot dry method.

So in your case, maybe try increasing the calcium intake of your little guy. I've seen studies on calcium supplementation but they were not done using a hot/humid closed chamber environment so I don't think we really know what the optimum Ca levels are.

My formula for raising smooth leos is:

- hot humid closed chamber
- proper day/ night temps
- an hour or two of outside time daily for exercise and natural UVB
- varied diet
- calcium carbonate supplement 3-4 times per week added to their food (along with a cuttlebone available at all times)
 

bouaboua

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Great thread. Learn a lot again. Just LOVE this forum.
 
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