concave scutes?

My little 3-toe Rorg seems to be getting more reverse-pyramided as time goes on.



I noticed today that some of the edges seemed to be starting to de-laminate a bit.
He is pushing 4 years old now. My other 3tbt Felter, older, who is kept under the same conditions, does not have this.
Am i doing something wrong? Or is this just a genetic idiosyncrasy?
Someone on another thread called this "reverse pyramiding" and indeed, that seems like a good description.
(Note that shell is dull-colored from mineral deposits from all the soaking.)

Oddly, this phenomenon seems to wax and wane. Sometimes his shell seems pretty normal.

i don't know why, but it looks like a problem for sure. I hope someone here knows what is happening.

I know you're an experienced keeper. But have you checked your UVB source and calcium/phosphorus/magnesium levels in the diet? Sure looks like lack of proper bone growth to me.

He gets lots of natural sunlight. Even in winter, on warm days i put my turts out to bask/soak like you see in the pic. That's sunlight.
The only thing possibly askew about his minerals is that the turtles have phosphorus-rich mealworms/darkling beetles in their totes, which they hunt and munch some. Back in '16 i fed them some darkling beetles for a while and a few got loose and bred. I've been sort of meaning to clean up their totes and replace the substrate.
They also have pillbugs, which are good. And i feed them vegs, and an occasional bit of fruit. They have not been much into vegs lately but that's probably seasonal.
Oh yeah, i feed them superworms sometimes, raised on superfoods with a bit of calcium added. Superworms have a lot of P. But he hasn't even had any of those in 6 weeks.

The mealworms/beetles only became noticeable last fall, though, whereas Rorg has had this shell thing longer than that.

Next time he's out soaking, i'll replace his substrate. Try to keep any pillbugs i can...
but somehow i doubt his P levels are so high as to cause this. He does have cuttlebone which he nibbles on some.

Oh jeez. i bet it's the mealworms. Their Calcium to Phosphorus ratio is not good for turtles. here is a piece of this article.-http://www.boxturtlefacts.org/Feeding_North_American_Box_Turtles.pdf

Earthworms are quite different from mealworms,

supermealies, and waxworms. The latter three invertebrates are insect larvae, not true worms. (Mealworms and supermealies become beetles; waxworms become moths). Unlike earthworms, which are annelids, nearly all insects have low calcium content and an inverse calcium to phosphorus ratio. In small amounts they are fine to offer as treats – most box turtles love them – but a steady diet will interfere with calcium absorption and cause calcium to be removed from a turtle’s bones, possibly leading to Metabolic Bone Disease. This can happen especially quickly in young growing turtles with high calcium requirements. If you feed commercially raised insects (e.g., mealworms, supermealies, waxworms, house crickets) dust them with calcium powder (Rep-Cal,

ZooMed) immediately before serving. The calcium should have Vit D3 additive if your turtles live indoors.

OK, i changed his substrate; we'll see if that helps. I'll do Felter's tote tomorrow.
Funny thing, i raked thru the old stuff and noticed no bugs except a few moths and a couple dried-up pillbugs.
Yet a few days ago i saw Rorg eating darkling beetles after i lifted something in his tote, exposing them. Maybe he's been eating more than i realize.
I read that mealworms are a garden pest, so i put the old substrate soaking in a closed bucket. I hope a few weeks of wet will kill any eggs. I hate to waste any bit of mulch, here on this barren hilltop.
Might not get any more freezing weather.

I've seen this is tortoises many times. I don't think it's anything to worry about. Make sure his enclosure is humid and moist, not wet. Box turtles need a lot of humidity. In the wild, there are days that they will experience less humidity in the air, and they will dig down in leaf litter. In captivity, they don't have this option, so you need to spray their enclosure. I've seen this with a Cherry head I used to have.

terryo said:

I've seen this is tortoises many times. I don't think it's anything to worry about. Make sure his enclosure is humid and moist, not wet. Box turtles need a lot of humidity. In the wild, there are days that they will experience less humidity in the air, and they will dig down in leaf litter. In captivity, they don't have this option, so you need to spray their enclosure. I've seen this with a Cherry head I used to have.

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Yeah, sometimes i have been letting the substrate dry up. I figure since he often soaks for hours, and in the wild turtles are exposed to dry conditions oftentimes, it can't be a big deal.
I do pour some water in there occasionally. Also ambient humidity is usually at least 40% in my cabin.

I've seen this happen with yellowfoot and gulf coast box turtles (Both high humidity species). I believe it' a humidity issue. It' the first time I've seen it with a 3 toed.

He's not a hatchling and he does get soaked a lot. He also gets a long warm soak at least once a week, more often if it's too cold outside. And much of the time his substrate has been moist as well, so it seems hard to believe he needs more humidity.
i am amazed sometimes at the healthy-looking wild 3tbts here who wander around through long hot dry spells with apparent impunity.

I cover my enclosures so I don't lose my humidity out the top.

Loohan said:

He's not a hatchling and he does get soaked a lot. He also gets a long warm soak at least once a week, more often if it's too cold outside. And much of the time his substrate has been moist as well, so it seems hard to believe he needs more humidity.
i am amazed sometimes at the healthy-looking wild 3tbts here who wander around through long hot dry spells with apparent impunity.

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During these dry spells, they will dig under near a pond where the ground is moist. Even though I live on an island, we will have some dry days, so I provide a spot with a lot of moist leaf litter for them to dig into. Lots of bugs and worms in there too. Anyway..
Just a though, and what I do. Nothing's written in stone.

terryo said:

During these dry spells, they will dig under near a pond where the ground is moist. Even though I live on an island, we will have some dry days, so I provide a spot with a lot of moist leaf litter for them to dig into. Lots of bugs and worms in there too. Anyway..
Just a though, and what I do. Nothing's written in stone.

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Last summer during a longish dry spell i did see a few walking around on my forested property.
In years past i have seen them in the road (even crossing hot asphalt in full sun!) when it's 95 out and dry.
That said, i'm sure it's preferable for them to have moist leaves available!

just my opinion based on what I'm reading, you mention soaking which is great for hydration, but humidity is good for shell growth or by my understanding it is. I know your other Box turtle is kept under the same conditions but the added diet and lack of humidity is the cause of the shell issue.

just comments from the peanut gallery

Rover15 said:

just my opinion based on what I'm reading, you mention soaking which is great for hydration, but humidity is good for shell growth or by my understanding it is. I know your other Box turtle is kept under the same conditions but the added diet and lack of humidity is the cause of the shell issue.

just comments from the peanut gallery

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Maybe so, thanks. I'll try to keep the substrate moist.

Loohan said:

Maybe so, thanks. I'll try to keep the substrate moist.

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what do your enclosures look like if you don't mind me asking?

https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B01HZHPO7Y/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

is what I use to keep an eye on my humidity cheapest i could find but its really good. my wife buys a lot online so she has amazon prime showed up within 2 days

Rover15 said:

what do your enclosures look like if you don't mind me asking?

https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B01HZHPO7Y/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

is what I use to keep an eye on my humidity cheapest i could find but its really good. my wife buys a lot online so she has amazon prime showed up within 2 days

Click to expand...

I have them in those black plastic Home Depot totes. I think Rorg's is 27 gal. and Felter's is 55 or so. No covers. I have a room humidifier as of a couple months ago and keep it around 40% humidity.

That linked item certainly seems affordable and useful. They don't ship here from Canada though. The only source i found in US is
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00PUC199E/?tag=exoticpetnetw-20
"Currently unavailable.
We don't know when or if this item will be back in stock."
and that has a different brand stamped on it though it may be the same item.

Loohan said:

I have them in those black plastic Home Depot totes. I think Rorg's is 27 gal. and Felter's is 55 or so. No covers. I have a room humidifier as of a couple months ago and keep it around 40% humidity.

That linked item certainly seems affordable and useful. They don't ship here from Canada though. The only source i found in US is
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00PUC199E/?tag=exoticpetnetw-20
"Currently unavailable.
We don't know when or if this item will be back in stock."
and that has a different brand stamped on it though it may be the same item.

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40% humidity is too low for box turtles. If you can get it to 60% or more that would be better.

lisa127 said:

40% humidity is too low for box turtles. If you can get it to 60% or more that would be better.

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I'm talking about air humidity, not substrate...

Loohan said:

I'm talking about air humidity, not substrate...

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Yes, I know. I believe higher humidity is best for them. JMO.