I have heard for longest time...tortoises are to eat veggies and little fruit only, then recently I've heard they need meat in their diet to prevent leg paralysis. I have 3 beautiful russians and 2 gorgeous baby redfoots. The reds I have got to eat a little bit of protein very easily, the russians I have not tried yet. But....thanks to loads of research, it is hard to find the real answer on who eats meat and who does not. I have finally found an article that explained...tropical tortoises require some meat for protein, but Mediterranean tortoises should never have meat in their diet. I am so very relieved I have never given any to my russians. I have tried to do a search on here if russians can eat meat, but nothing. So I am hoping this helps a few of us out there to understand the differences a bit more. If anyone else has knowledge or input to this as well, please add. The more we learn about our little family members, the happier they will be.
To eat meat or not to eat meat, that is the question
- Thread starter barrabuss
- Start date
Rusky
Active Member
Russian tortoises should definitely not have veggies, fruit or protein as a major part of their diet. Animal matter is an absolute no-no, and veggies and fruit should be once a month at most. I actually didn't know about rfs eating meat, but I looked it up and you're right.
Many forest tortoise species, like your RF, are more omnivorous. Your russian however, is a broadleaf weed eater. It shouldn't be fed meat or fruit ever. If they eat an occasional insect or some fallen fruit outside once in a while it won't hurt anything, but leafy weeds are what they should be eating for that vast majority of their daily diet.
- Joined
- Nov 7, 2012
- Messages
- 5,173
- Location (City and/or State)
- South of Southern California, but not Mexico
In a recent off-line conversation with another tortoise person I told them I use a vegetarian organic layer mash (chicken food for laying hens) and the conversation quickly lead to some virtue of meat based protein over plant based. That does not reflect the situation well at all.
There are indeed essential amino acids well known for humans, and perhaps by extension to many other animals, but that is not a sure thing at all. However even if the exact same group are considered essential to tortoises where they come from is of no concern IF WE FED THE AMINO ACIDS BY THEMSELVES. But we don't do that, we feed whole food items that contain those amino acids. All the other stuff that goes along for the ride in that bite of food is also important. Meat based (as in more than just the amino acids) protein is not advised in tortoises as they have a multi chamber gut like function in their digestive system. This occurs in two ways.
One) the cecum holds a colony of microbes that aid in digestion and hold the microbes as a reserve source for the whole gut's colony of microbes in times of low food intake. Those microbes are small organisms that further break down molecules of food into more readily absorbed nutrients.
Two) tortoises use a substrate in the gut (indigestible fiber or seeds) to move the food from the large intestines back towards the mouth end of the GI track, so that the small intestines can have another go at getting the suite of nutrients absorbed there.
Carnivores have short GI tacks and food moves fast as rotting meat in the intestines causes bad things to happen. Tortoises with a longer intestinal track and a primitive multi-function gut are not meat eaters by evolutionary design. They for sure need the food value of meat if not present in sufficient quantities in other food items.
I do not intend to advocate not feeding meat to tortoises, but the quantity and quality need to be considered. Instead of playing the how much game I have opted to use a whole food source for chickens that lay eggs (high calcium and D3 needs). That it is vegetarian may be a marketing pitch to some people, that it is organic is ever more an apparent desirable quality.
I still use some dog/cat food with some species and snails with others. Limited amounts and well vetted brands of dog/cat food, with all organic meat sources of actual meat, not grain byproducts. Snails are little calcium bombs.
There are indeed essential amino acids well known for humans, and perhaps by extension to many other animals, but that is not a sure thing at all. However even if the exact same group are considered essential to tortoises where they come from is of no concern IF WE FED THE AMINO ACIDS BY THEMSELVES. But we don't do that, we feed whole food items that contain those amino acids. All the other stuff that goes along for the ride in that bite of food is also important. Meat based (as in more than just the amino acids) protein is not advised in tortoises as they have a multi chamber gut like function in their digestive system. This occurs in two ways.
One) the cecum holds a colony of microbes that aid in digestion and hold the microbes as a reserve source for the whole gut's colony of microbes in times of low food intake. Those microbes are small organisms that further break down molecules of food into more readily absorbed nutrients.
Two) tortoises use a substrate in the gut (indigestible fiber or seeds) to move the food from the large intestines back towards the mouth end of the GI track, so that the small intestines can have another go at getting the suite of nutrients absorbed there.
Carnivores have short GI tacks and food moves fast as rotting meat in the intestines causes bad things to happen. Tortoises with a longer intestinal track and a primitive multi-function gut are not meat eaters by evolutionary design. They for sure need the food value of meat if not present in sufficient quantities in other food items.
I do not intend to advocate not feeding meat to tortoises, but the quantity and quality need to be considered. Instead of playing the how much game I have opted to use a whole food source for chickens that lay eggs (high calcium and D3 needs). That it is vegetarian may be a marketing pitch to some people, that it is organic is ever more an apparent desirable quality.
I still use some dog/cat food with some species and snails with others. Limited amounts and well vetted brands of dog/cat food, with all organic meat sources of actual meat, not grain byproducts. Snails are little calcium bombs.
Curious what you think about the observation that wild sulcatas will opportunistically feast upon the carcasses of animals that retreat into their burrows to escape the hot African sun and die.
What species do you feed snails and and dog/cat food too and how regularly?
I also have chicken lay mash or crumbles on hand. How often and how much do you offer? How do you offer it? Soaked and mixed with other stuff?
Thanks for sharing this info!
- Joined
- Nov 7, 2012
- Messages
- 5,173
- Location (City and/or State)
- South of Southern California, but not Mexico
This one. At one time there was only Purina 'layena'. Now there are many to choose from. So far this one is a good choice.
The other image is old type Mazuri soaked in hibiscus water. The red seems to really stand out to tortoises' eyes.
- Joined
- Nov 7, 2012
- Messages
- 5,173
- Location (City and/or State)
- South of Southern California, but not Mexico
Sulcata use of animals in their burrow is opportunistic, be hungry or eat the animal. Do they do this in times of abundant plant sources of food or other times of the year? Are many known to do this or is it an aberrant individual? I will guess these are some what rhetorical questions based on the limited published data?
I feed snails to Knixiys spekii. I fed some to some Forseten's tortoises, but one died shortly thereafter, and my crude necropsy indicated that maybe there was a jam up of shell material in the intestine/stomach. With the K. spekii I will only feed two or three at a time as I come across them in the yard.
I feed organic dog/cat food offered from Costco, the main ingredients are actual meat and vegetables, not much grain at all. This is for Knixys erosa.
What I do with the chicken food is evolving. I used to mix it in dry, and much would fall off the other salad bits and pieces. Then I would use a small piece of banana and mix that into the greens first (or opuntia or aloe) and then the crumbles would stick better. Now I soak it in the left over water from re-wetting dehydrated hibiscus flowers and it doesn't matter if it falls off of the greens they will pick each and every little piece that falls onto the tile I use for plates, or actual paper plates I use.
How much, you'll love this answer, two scoops into about three dish pans worth of chopped greens. That is about 1/3-1/2 cup. I use the layer mash three or four times a week, Vionate at least once a week, just calcium once a week, and no supplements at least one day a week. The chicken food has D3 so I no longer use calcium with D3 for the most part. On calcium days I may use cuttle bone or some pure Calcium carbonate powder.
Thank you for the details Will. I'm interested in giving it a try. How long have you been doing this, and have you seen tangible results yet? More clutches, more eggs per clutch, better egg shells, higher hatch rates, higher hatchling weights, etc…?
- Joined
- Nov 7, 2012
- Messages
- 5,173
- Location (City and/or State)
- South of Southern California, but not Mexico
More eggs for sure. The Manouria being a great example as well as the male now with an active growth seam despite his leg dislocation.
I've used chicken layer crumbles off and on since the late 1980's.
Here is an image of them colored with hibiscus water. That also includes banana, yellow zucchini, sweet potato, and kale & opuntia for the adult Manouria.
I've used chicken layer crumbles off and on since the late 1980's.
Here is an image of them colored with hibiscus water. That also includes banana, yellow zucchini, sweet potato, and kale & opuntia for the adult Manouria.
@Will do you feed the layer mash to all your tortoises?
It is really nice of you to take time and post this. I have forest species and mine are definitely very omnivorous and The care sheets on this forum specify that very clearly but many new keepers of the grazing species seem to be confused about dietary needs of their torts so reminders are always great. Thank you.
- Joined
- Nov 7, 2012
- Messages
- 5,173
- Location (City and/or State)
- South of Southern California, but not Mexico
What I do with the chicken food is evolving. I used to mix it in dry, and much would fall off the other salad bits and pieces. Then I would use a small piece of banana and mix that into the greens first (or opuntia or aloe) and then the crumbles would stick better. Now I soak it in the left over water from re-wetting dehydrated hibiscus flowers and it doesn't matter if it falls off of the greens they will pick each and every little piece that falls onto the tile I use for plates, or actual paper plates I use.
How much, you'll love this answer, two scoops into about three dish pans worth of chopped greens. That is about 1/3-1/2 cup. I use the layer mash three or four times a week, Vionate at least once a week, just calcium once a week, and no supplements at least one day a week. The chicken food has D3 so I no longer use calcium with D3 for the most part. On calcium days I may use cuttle bone or some pure Calcium carbonate powder.
For all tortoises. Adults and juveniles.
Curious, Will...
The ingredients and nutritional analysis looks extremely close to Mazuri. What do you see as value in using this over just using Mazuri in this type application?
Where does one purchase hibiscus water?
My Hermanns eat much more meat than I'm comfortable with. Worms, insects, slugs,... Especially slugs, but I guess that can't be helped since I try to keep the enclosure moist. Well, the tortoises seem to thrive anyway. 
It's probably easier to make it yourself (as explained in post #12), but you can purchase dried hibiscus flowers.
- Joined
- Nov 7, 2012
- Messages
- 5,173
- Location (City and/or State)
- South of Southern California, but not Mexico
$$, and the Layer mash USDA certified organic. Layer is $28 for a 40 pound sack.
- Joined
- Nov 7, 2012
- Messages
- 5,173
- Location (City and/or State)
- South of Southern California, but not Mexico
I make it by soaking hibiscus blossoms in water overnight in my refrigerator. I chop up the blossoms and ad them to the diet for variety and color enhancement. I use USDA certified organic blossoms. I'll bring a free sample up (Tortoise wife privilege), next time I am there.
Whole blossoms for big guys like the Manuoria, partially chopped for medium size guys like K. erosa and I. fostenii, and very fine for little guys. See my ad in the for sale section of TFO.
Otherwise with any purchase of anything at Kapidolo Farms, you can request a free sample of any of the diet items.
https://www.facebook.com/KapidoloFarms/
- Joined
- Nov 7, 2012
- Messages
- 5,173
- Location (City and/or State)
- South of Southern California, but not Mexico
I think it must taste different as well. And there are nutrients in the hibiscus that include many things good.
Not all layer kibbles are good to feed tortoises. You have to read the ingredients and make sure there are no medicines, etc. in it.
