THB hibernation

Erwanc

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Hi guys,

I have a male THB that I just got and I am wondering if he needs a proper hibernation this winter.
I live in Malta, a small Mediterranean island south of Sicily. He has a large soiled pen on my roof top where he can browse as he wishes.
Here the winter are rather mild in the sense that the temperatures rarely drop below 12°C or 55°F. However if you stand in full sun, the temperatures can go up to 15-16°C or 60°F. Therefore there is no way he would be able to get a proper hibernation, so I am a little bit confused as to what to do.
On the other hand, even though the climate is very dry, it can get quite humid in winter due to frequent showers.

He is about 6-7 yo but was kept in pretty bad conditions ie pyramiding, long nails due to the fact that he was living on a tiled terrace at his previous owner's, so I can't really ask the guy what he was doing in winters because that wouldn't help at all...

I know that THB are a bit more weather tolerant than THH but still.

I would appreciate if some of you could let me know whats the best plan of action for me.

Thanks a lot,
 

TechnoCheese

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Hibernation isn’t at all necessary, unless you plan to breed the tortoise :)
 

Erwanc

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Hibernation isn’t at all necessary, unless you plan to breed the tortoise :)
Since they do hibernate in their natural habitat I would have thought no hibernation would shorten their life span or something like that?!?
 

Marianna

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Hi I live in Crete. I don't have THB but 3 testudo's marginata. They hibernate every winter from November until March, regardless the weather, because that is what they do. They have done so from their first year. Climate here is somewhat simular I guess, probably more temperature change here though. We have temperatures in winter ranging from 20 degrees to about 5 with sometimes even some frost and snow and lots of rain and high humidity. Mine hibernate under a pile of dried leafs in a construction I made of bricks, covered with a large floor tile.
Maybe you could do something similar? Just make sure he has enough soil to dig himself in and don't expose the construction to full time sun. Good luck!
 

Iochroma

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I assume the climate on Malta, and that of Sicily are very similar; Hermann's live naturally on Sicily, and I'm sure they only hibernate briefly there. I would not worry about forcing a hibernation.
Let's tag @HermanniChris and hope he will give you some advice.
 

Boettgeri

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Hello, I live in Switzerland and I have 2 THB. It is very important for them to hibernate. If he can not hibernate it will reduce his life expanctancy. Some people use a special fridge to allow hibernation: they reduce gradually the temperature and open it often to let oxygen in. For a THB the temperature should be between 2°C and 8°C and also the humidity shoulb be 80% (very important). The hibernation should last at least 3 months. There is only a reason not to let them hibernate : if they are sick. Since he was kept in bad conditions, he is pyramiding and you have just got him...First thing I advise you is to take him to a vet to know if his health is good enough to hibernate.
 

Iochroma

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Hello, I live in Switzerland and I have 2 THB. It is very important for them to hibernate. If he can not hibernate it will reduce his life expanctancy. ...

Do you have any scientific studies that support that claim?
 

Boettgeri

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I have spoke to many breeders and professional of this specie. That is always what tortoise do in their natural environmnent and I have also seen many examples of tortoises pyramiding and dying young without hibernating... I have also read scientific revues but this is in french (english is not my native language).
Some informations here (it is a vet wrote it) : http://www.cliniquelingostiere.com/osteodystrophie-carapace-tortue_182.aspx?me=349

"Mauvaise conduite de l’hibernation
(tortue passant l’hiver à l’intérieur à 20°C sans UVB...)" are one of the reasons of pyramiding. It means that the tortoise do not hibernate and stay all Winter long awake in a terrarium.

Breeders wrote it : http://www.lerefugedestortues.fr/publications/CHELONIENS-Hibernation- juveniles.pdf

Basically, if the tortoise do not hibernate it will grow up to fast and will more likely end up pyramiding, pyramiding is very bad because of the bones, the organs and it sure reduces life expectancy. I only speak about european tortoise here that hibernate in their natural environment not the others who do not hibernate. Letting the tortoise hibernate is respecting their natural needs and if they do it in their natural environment it is for a reason.

I hope maybe somebody can explain better than me.
 
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I have spoke to many breeders and professional of this specie. That is always what tortoise do in their natural environmnent and I have also seen many examples of tortoises pyramiding and dying young without hibernating... I have also read scientific revues but this is in french (english is not my native language).
Some informations here (it is a vet wrote it) : http://www.cliniquelingostiere.com/osteodystrophie-carapace-tortue_182.aspx?me=349

"Mauvaise conduite de l’hibernation
(tortue passant l’hiver à l’intérieur à 20°C sans UVB...)" are one of the reasons of pyramiding. It means that the tortoise do not hibernate and stay all Winter long awake in a terrarium.

Breeders wrote it : http://www.lerefugedestortues.fr/publications/CHELONIENS-Hibernation- juveniles.pdf

Basically, if the tortoise do not hibernate it will grow up to fast and will more likely end up pyramiding, pyramiding is very bad because of the bones, the organs and it sure reduces life expectancy. I only speak about european tortoise here that hibernate in their natural environment not the others who do not hibernate. Letting the tortoise hibernate is respecting their natural needs and if they do it in their natural environment it is for a reason.

I hope maybe somebody can explain better than me.

Hmm, perhaps the lack of humidity is the cause of the pyramiding in the tortoises that weren't hibernated.

80% humidity for the winter would be difficult to maintain unless buried under moist soil, or in a controlled environment indoors by watchful keepers.
 

Marianna

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As I wrote before, let him hibernate because that is what he wants anyway. It is in their nature and who are we to stop that? Just provide him with the right environment as he lives in captivity with you and can't take care of it himself.
Humidity in my winterhide under the dried leaves on the soil is always around 90 percent at the lowest because of the damp nights you must have too. Perfect to minimize pyramiding.
Mine have hibernated successfully from hatchling on.
This year we have enlarged their enclosure to 500 m2 of natural habitat and I am already curious whether they will go in the man made hide OR find a better spot themselves.
 

Boettgeri

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I think humidity is also important. My tortoises hibernate in a hibernation chamber in the garage. I have a hygrometer and I don't let the humidity go down. My tortoises don't live in a terrarium but people I know that have a terrarium have also a hygrometer and their tortoises are still pyramiding. Maybe it is caused by many factors and not just humidity ?
 

Marianna

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I don't know why people make such a fuzz about pyramiding. Just last week at our vet I saw a beautiful adult testudo of about 30 cm. that was rescued from the road and was recovering from surgery on his neck. Smooth as a baby bottom!! And you know how arid summers are here in the southern mediterranian. They do know how to take care of themselves for millions of years already.
I could go on about keeping them in captivity not providing the proper environment and space, but better not....
 

Boettgeri

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I don't know why people make such a fuzz about pyramiding. Just last week at our vet I saw a beautiful adult testudo of about 30 cm. that was rescued from the road and was recovering from surgery on his neck. Smooth as a baby bottom!! And you know how arid summers are here in the southern mediterranian. They do know how to take care of themselves for millions of years already.
I could go on about keeping them in captivity not providing the proper environment and space, but better not....

I agree. I think tortoises should live in conditions most similar to their natural environment but infortunately I see many tortoises pyramiding when they live in a terrarium, do not hibernate etc. In their natural environment, wild tortoises are not pyramiding.
Mine are smooth and I think it is because they live outside in the garden, they have enough natural Sun, natural humidity, eat what they eat in their natural environment and hibernate since they are born (I just use a hibernation chamber in Winter to control temperature and humidity, here the climate changes quickly and I don't want to take that risk but it changes nothing for my tortoises they still hibernate, I know some people here whose tortoises died because of the weather changes and I know some die in their natural environment because of it too).
 

Marianna

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I have a friend near Berliin in Germany.
She has a greek tortoise that lives in her garden and hibernates outside. It digs himself a deep hole in the soil. Deep enough for the frosts not to reach.
He turned 8 this year!
 

Erwanc

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First of I'd like to thank you all for your answers. Just to be more specific I'm not against hibernation/brumation but rather in favour because as Boettgeri said I always heard that brumation was a way to keep the natural lifespan of your torts. Having said that I couldn't find scientific studies as such but I would imagine that since they do in their natural habitats why shouldn't we try to replicate their natural behaviors to the best of our abilities.

Having said that, eventhough Malta is only 50 miles south of Sicily where THH are found the climate is quiet different and the winters are milder this is why I was concerned about the temperatures to be too high for a proper hibernation considering the fact that THB's range have much colder winters.

I took this tort to a vet to give me the peace of mind I needed about this little guy and eventhough he didn't receive optimum care at his previous owner's he seems in perfect condition.

So I guess what I will do is to provide him a water tight hidding box with dried leaves and dry soil in order for him to get the possibility to dig himself if he feels he needs to and it'll probably do it.

Thanks guys,
 
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