How many tortoises get seriously ill or die as a result of eating "bad" weeds?

RosemaryDW

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I don't see this as a no-win situation. They got bad pet store advice that will harm or kill their tortoise, and we give them the right info that will help them and keep their tortoise alive and healthy. Is it frustrating, overwhelming or discouraging? Sure it is.

Yes, it is discouraging.

I wonder how many of them come, get overwhelmed, and don't come back. I know that will always be the case for some but I think I can decrease the number by telling brand new members "Hey, go fix your lights, humidity, and temps and get them stable. Until then, just stick to this <insert very very short> list of foods. Don't worry about finding dandelions in the dead of winter/next to the Love Canal/Brooklyn." :)

Man, I would have done anything to have a mentor like MarkW, YvonneG, Will, cdmay, or any of two dozen more of the members here on this forum. Holy cow! Type in a question and BOOM!

Things have certainly changed for the better. Here is the answer I got to my very first post about the tortoise I found, in the desert tortoise forum:

That is a russian tortoise.

BOOM! :)
 

RosemaryDW

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A newbie can come here and quickly get such a large list of good items to feed. All the variety they and their tortoise needs. As Tom mentions, it may come with a recommendation to spend some time learning to identify enough basic staples to be able to rotate maybe a dozen good choices.

But how can a dozen be okay when they eat HUNDREDS of foods in the wild?! LOL

I like things black and white, if that's not extremely obvious. One size fits all, except of course it doesn't. :)

Thank you for your feedback, I appreciate it.
 

Kapidolo Farms

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To me "overkill" is a "hysterical" tone. If someone asks, Hey I have several of these plants (image of oleander) and I know it's a desert plant, can me tortoises eat it.

I think the response would be That plant is oleander, if that is an image of the internet, you might want to confirm the type of plant, if that is from your backyard then I and other can conform it is indeed oleander. It is without any doubt not a food item for tortoises, oleander is very toxic, so toxic no herbivores can eat it. Even grasshoppers and most insects can not safely eat it.

Maybe something less black and white. On a Facebook leopard tortoise page.

Post one: Can I feed squash leaves, I've heard they can be toxic?
The Moderator: I don't know but I think they may be.
My response: (image of squash leaves in a supermarket for human consumption) and a link to the feedipedia.org data sheet http://www.feedipedia.org/node/44 .


The whole problem with my approach is something I ran up against when taking calls from the public while working at a zoo. People want to do what they want to do and just ask "experts" to confirm what they are doing or want to do, not what the "expert" suggests.

Caller: I have fed my baby iguana only romaine, he seems to be growing okay, is that an okay diet?
Me: Is your iguana always indoors?
Caller: Yeah but his cage is near a window.
Me: You'll have to offer a wider range of foods, more than just romaine, and you should consider getting a vitamin/mineral supplement, and or some kind of bulb or tube that emits UVA and UVB parts of the spectrum. I can offer some specific suggestions if you like?
Caller: Well that's what he's been eating for the past two months and he's fine, shows you what you know (hangs up).

I see it as the hoarse and water dealio, Can lead but can't make drink. Can put face in water (hysterics) but that just creates water aversion.

Having been that caller to the zoo when I was a pre-teen and had opportunity to talk with herpetologists I have walked both sides of the discussion. But I too loose patience at time. LOL.
 

stevenf625

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per the California Poison Control System rating system

Poison ivy = 1
virginia creeper = 2a, 2b

So its safer to eat Poison ivy than it is Virginia Creeper?
 

ZEROPILOT

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A large female that was out of the pen for maintenance ate several "Easter Lilies" that the previous owner of my house had planted over 20 year ago.
I waited. Then went to the vet. NOTHING.
They still pop up every spring. I no longer worry about them. But don't let my animals eat them if I can.
I've dug up a few with a shovel, but there are so many. There are dozens. Maybe hundreds that line my back yard walk way and the back of the house.
 

daniellenc

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I know as a new owner who previously had no knowledge of local weeds it has been hard. On one hand especially in the spring and summer months you want to feed as much variety as possible. Researching whats what at the grocery store is easy because we've been shopping our entire life, but researching your back yard isn't as cut and dry. Sure I knew what plantain and dandelion looked like, but I have a yard full of weird green stuff. I can't look it up by name because I don't know what it is. So the only thing I can do is post it here, or check my States website on weeds. When trying to find a picture of what I'm looking at that can even be tricky because many plants look very similar. So far I feed hosta leaves and flowers, rose of sharon leaves and flowers, white clover, broadleaf plantain, and dandelion weeds and flowers with store greens like chard, collard, mustard, and spring mix. I'm currently growing my own so I know exactly what they're getting but it is a large learning curve being able to identify safe wild plants to provide variety.

As far as wondering how many tortoises die because of eating toxic plants I am sure it is more than we imagine especially wild species. In captivity it is far easier to control what they consume provided researching before feeding, and not allowing browsing behavior outdoors unless in their own planted enclosure. I am actually enjoying familiarizing myself more with the plants here but it is intimidating at times.
 

Markw84

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per the California Poison Control System rating system

Poison ivy = 1
virginia creeper = 2a, 2b

So its safer to eat Poison ivy than it is Virginia Creeper?

Totally different issues. One is a dermal issue caused by the oil in poison ivy/poison Oak (Urushiol oil) That can irritate the skin with rashes and blisters. However, deer fed readily on poison oak.

2a and 2b is about oxalates and how the digestive system handles those. 2a is concern for oxalate crystals that can irritate the mouth, tongue, lips - in particular in mammals. 2b is concern that higher levels of oxalate crystals can lodge in the kidneys and create problems. However, that again is not a known issue as to how exactly that would apply to chelonians, since their kidneys and whole "urinary system" works so differently.
 

MichaelaW

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Totally different issues. One is a dermal issue caused by the oil in poison ivy/poison Oak (Urushiol oil) That can irritate the skin with rashes and blisters. However, deer fed readily on poison oak.

2a and 2b is about oxalates and how the digestive system handles those. 2a is concern for oxalate crystals that can irritate the mouth, tongue, lips - in particular in mammals. 2b is concern that higher levels of oxalate crystals can lodge in the kidneys and create problems. However, that again is not a known issue as to how exactly that would apply to chelonians, since their kidneys and whole "urinary system" works so differently.
This is interesting in regards to Manouria as their wild diet has been shown to consist of 70% colocasia. Apparently, the irritation to the mouth of animals as well as humans is caused by the high levels of oxalate crystals, but it does not seem to affect Manouria; however, it is toxic to other species.
 

Tom

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I know as a new owner who previously had no knowledge of local weeds it has been hard. On one hand especially in the spring and summer months you want to feed as much variety as possible. Researching whats what at the grocery store is easy because we've been shopping our entire life, but researching your back yard isn't as cut and dry. Sure I knew what plantain and dandelion looked like, but I have a yard full of weird green stuff. I can't look it up by name because I don't know what it is. So the only thing I can do is post it here, or check my States website on weeds. When trying to find a picture of what I'm looking at that can even be tricky because many plants look very similar. So far I feed hosta leaves and flowers, rose of sharon leaves and flowers, white clover, broadleaf plantain, and dandelion weeds and flowers with store greens like chard, collard, mustard, and spring mix. I'm currently growing my own so I know exactly what they're getting but it is a large learning curve being able to identify safe wild plants to provide variety.

As far as wondering how many tortoises die because of eating toxic plants I am sure it is more than we imagine especially wild species. In captivity it is far easier to control what they consume provided researching before feeding, and not allowing browsing behavior outdoors unless in their own planted enclosure. I am actually enjoying familiarizing myself more with the plants here but it is intimidating at times.

In addition to the resources you mentioned, most nurseries have a local "weed" expert. If you take in cuttings, these "plant nerds" can help you ID your local weeds and possibly tell you about their toxicity levels too.
 

Iochroma

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We are very strict about telling new owners to avoid feeding absolutely anything they don't know is safe. Is that overkill?

I know tortoises absolutely suffer as the result of poor diets (like all iceburg or tomatoes!) but how many weed or yard plant poisoning cases have we seen? I know there is one thread on a sulcata getting a bad reaction from eating a load of tulip bulbs but are there others? Has there been a case of death by oxalis, for example?

The safe weeds list we provide new owners is a great place to get them started but it is limited. We direct new owners to the Tortoise Table but in my opinion, its logic often doesn't make sense and it's overly conservative. I don't rely on it.

After reading our advice, many owners are terrified to feed the wrong weed but are the dangers well documented? Maybe for sulcatas but what about other types? Would it really be so bad for owners to let their tortoises take a nibble of something unknown while they get used to identifying what's around them? Would that be better or worse than having them stick with a bag of spring mix for extended periods of time?
 

Kapidolo Farms

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Someone liked a post of mine here which brought me back to this thread. I am preparing a talk on diet items and in that preparation I have learned better how to clarify my earlier attempts at what should be simple things, but are not.

All plants produce some kind 'secondary' compound(s). These are chemicals that are always present as well as others that are seasonally present. The purpose is to dissuade consumption by herbivores. It is an evolutionary response, the plant may get stuck in a dead end for producing different compounds, or some herbivores co-evolve a mechanism to deal with the compound that discourages consumption.

Most plants we find in the grocery store have been cultivated so as to reduce those secondary compounds relative to out tastes, palatability, and later on for marketability.

Tortoises would seem to have different co-adaptations depending on their range of origen. So European Testudo might not do so well with toxins present in plants that are commonly eaten by Indian Star tortoises, as an example. I think there may well be compound that they can all tolerate well, but we don't know it. This simple matter has lead to much confusion over what is a safe feed or not.

Looking at other posts here I see the Virginia Creeper is possibly considered not a good food item, yet I know of some keepers that feed it often and it is planted in enclosures for desert tortoises, Indian and Burmese Star tortoises, many testudo and I forget what other species. Some will run over to eat it in preference to Mulberry (say it isn't so!).
 

Iochroma

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A large female that was out of the pen for maintenance ate several "Easter Lilies" that the previous owner of my house had planted over 20 year ago.
I waited. Then went to the vet. NOTHING.
They still pop up every spring. I no longer worry about them. But don't let my animals eat them if I can.
I've dug up a few with a shovel, but there are so many. There are dozens. Maybe hundreds that line my back yard walk way and the back of the house.

True lilies, like easter lily, are not toxic, in fact they are eaten as a vegetable. For some strange reason they are very toxic to cats.
 

ZEROPILOT

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True lilies, like easter lily, are not toxic, in fact they are eaten as a vegetable. For some strange reason they are very toxic to cats.
Time to make my feral cats a salad.o_O
That makes a lot of sense. Because they've eaten a lot of it over the years.(the tortoises)
 

Kapidolo Farms

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Kapidolo Farms

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My belief on this is in the wild some tortoises eat poisonous items and they die. They do not pass on those preferences or proclivity. Other tortoises do not have a "taste for" that item and they live. They pass on that trait. Can't imagine they have any intelligence or reasoning to eat a small portion and know if that item got them sick or not!

I also like this reference from the California Poison Control System that I use and have the shortcut on my desktop. It gives me a better idea of why a particular plant is bad. Also seems to be the most comprehensive database I have found.

It still leaves us with the question of "does that apply to tortoises?' but that's the stuff for ongoing discussion, observation and research. As we do... I agree - err on the side of caution!

Can you imagine they become fixated on a food item? The corollary is they do learn to avoid some things, based on internal feedback. It does not have to be 'conscious learning.' But they do also have conscious learning, to what extent as as it relates to food choices I don't know. But the 'feedback is not so gestalt as live by not eating the bad stuff and die by eating it. Otherwise there would be no adaptive effect of all the secondary compounds in plants and all the animals that can tolerate them.

Like the salamanders in oregon that are deadly toxic to people, but the garter snakes there can eat them. The salamander becomes more toxic, and the snake becomes more tolerant. i'ts co-adaptation system, some call it evolutionary warfare, but those dramatic pulp magazine writers.
 

Markw84

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Can you imagine they become fixated on a food item? The corollary is they do learn to avoid some things, based on internal feedback. It does not have to be 'conscious learning.' But they do also have conscious learning, to what extent as as it relates to food choices I don't know. But the 'feedback is not so gestalt as live by not eating the bad stuff and die by eating it. Otherwise there would be no adaptive effect of all the secondary compounds in plants and all the animals that can tolerate them.

Like the salamanders in oregon that are deadly toxic to people, but the garter snakes there can eat them. The salamander becomes more toxic, and the snake becomes more tolerant. i'ts co-adaptation system, some call it evolutionary warfare, but those dramatic pulp magazine writers.
Totally agree! And we do know that tortoises have pretty good memory of where food is and develop set routes to prime food sources in their territories. So returning to a plant that does not kill them or make them ill would be happening. Perhaps if marginally toxic, the more resistant of the tortoises survive or at least do better - to pass that on to future generations.
 

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My Sulcata pen is completely surrounded by Tree of Heaven trees. This tree is an invasive species and is a real pain to eradicate, cut one down and 12 spring up. After he was in the pen he would eat any leaves that fell off the trees. I found out later that it is listed as extremely toxic. I would not have made his enclosure there if I knew beforehand. He has been eating these leaves for the past couple of years so it looks like it is not toxic to him. I do not know if the leaves loose their toxicity when they fall off the tree it is just that mine eats it regularly and has never had a problem. After a rain and wind storm his enclosure is covered with them and he just goes to town on them. The only reason I rake them up is I don't want them to smother the grass.
 

Kapidolo Farms

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This is all very interesting but I still have no answer to my original question! :)
Your original post . . .
"We are very strict about telling new owners to avoid feeding absolutely anything they don't know is safe. Is that overkill?
I know tortoises absolutely suffer as the result of poor diets (like all iceburg or tomatoes!) but how many weed or yard plant poisoning cases have we seen? I know there is one thread on a sulcata getting a bad reaction from eating a load of tulip bulbs but are there others? Has there been a case of death by oxalis, for example?

The safe weeds list we provide new owners is a great place to get them started but it is limited. We direct new owners to the Tortoise Table but in my opinion, its logic often doesn't make sense and it's overly conservative. I don't rely on it.

After reading our advice, many owners are terrified to feed the wrong weed but are the dangers well documented? Maybe for sulcatas but what about other types? Would it really be so bad for owners to let their tortoises take a nibble of something unknown while they get used to identifying what's around them? Would that be better or worse than having them stick with a bag of spring mix for extended periods of time?"

My take on this in short is 'better to err on the side of caution'. If someone is truly "terrified" by others offering caution then they need to engage in a less dramatic (I'm figuring the terrified state of mind) hobby. I suggest often that oxalates are not a thing for tortoises, and that protein is good (when balanced with much water) and I get the idea people think I'm being eccentric. Even after I explain in detail what the specifics are.

So to suggest something 'MAY be toxic or hazardous' is not the same as 'the tortoise will be dead before it swallows a second bite', but if that's what someone reads from 'MAY be toxic or hazardous', then they may not be a suitable tortoise owner, maybe they should have a pet where the food is out of a can they buy at the grocery store, and that's okay too.

As for specific toxic reactions, I don't have any to report.
 

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