Marbling.

Anyfoot

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I think I have my first ever marbling tortoise. :) He’s 16 month old. Both Brazilian parents have zero marbling. Parents are small and dark. Looks like this little feller is going to follow suit with size. Hope so anyway.
Be interesting to see how he develops.
3DEE883C-E82F-4A3B-BE91-37A9D2583CF8.jpeg FA6DD03C-90A4-49BB-91C7-430841FC7C27.jpeg 75ED59E3-148B-4A7E-A99D-CC3F3ED8E318.jpeg 5B9A17C9-10B5-43B0-AA8C-4B5B55E818CF.jpeg
 

Toddrickfl1

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My Tortoise Murphy just started marbling too about a month ago and he's a northern, totally unexpected.IMG_20180914_151528754.jpg IMG_20180914_151509873.jpg IMG_20180914_151451783_BURST001.jpg
 

Toddrickfl1

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Can someone please explain what marbling is? [emoji51]
Some Red foot tortoises, as they grow a little older their shells start to develop a white pattern . I don't think it's very common and it's usually only found in Cherryheads. I'm not sure what causes it? Here is an example of a marbled Redfoot.
2741074_orig.jpg
 

Toddrickfl1

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@Anyfoot Does the marbling stay forever or does it eventually go away as they grow older?
 

katieandiggy

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Some Red foot tortoises, as they grow a little older their shells start to develop a white pattern . I don't think it's very common and it's usually only found in Cherryheads. I'm not sure what causes it? Here is an example of a marbled Redfoot.
View attachment 251516

Thank you, makes sense now. I was thinking the white stuff was some kind of fungus. Learn something every day.
 

Anyfoot

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@Anyfoot Does the marbling stay forever or does it eventually go away as they grow older?
I’m no expert with marbling.
I was told they very rarely marble after the third yr. One of my females has some really old marbling that has tanned to be very dark in color.
 

Anyfoot

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Thank you, makes sense now. I was thinking the white stuff was some kind of fungus. Learn something every day.
Marbling always comes in with new growth. So the white marbling is at the scute seams. If white appears in old growth it’s not marbling, more likely to be fungus.
 

Anyfoot

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@Markw84

Do you have any words of wisdom on marbling.
Why do some species show it and some don’t.?
What is actually going on with marbling?

I was thinking that the Brazilian species of redfoot endures dryer climates at times, could this be a factor.

I’ve noticed within my herd the Brazilians grow smother easier than the northern redfoots which have a wetter climate.
Northerns are hard to grow smooth.
 

Anyfoot

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I know you don’t keep redfoots.
Just to make the above clear I’m of the opinion the Brazilian redfoots endure dryer climates than the the northern redfoots.
 

Markw84

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@Markw84

Do you have any words of wisdom on marbling.
Why do some species show it and some don’t.?
What is actually going on with marbling?

I was thinking that the Brazilian species of redfoot endures dryer climates at times, could this be a factor.

I’ve noticed within my herd the Brazilians grow smother easier than the northern redfoots which have a wetter climate.
Northerns are hard to grow smooth.

Marbling is when you get an area where pigment does not set in the new keratin and uncolored keratin grows. With stars, radiated, geometric, etc. the pigment sets in patterns that are set, and the unpigmented areas are left in specific areas creating rays. In leopards this grows in a very "unpatterned" way - so what stops or starts the laying down of pigment in an area seems totally random. Mabling seems to follow this random pattern, but to an extremely variable extent.

So what causes an area to grow without pigment? It is predetermined in stars and geometric. Less so in radiated. And random in leopards. IN tortoises that are 'normally' totally pigmented, we can get random areas of non-pigmented keratin. So in some, it is a genetic programming and the keratin at certain locations consistently do not have pigment. But where random, what triggers it to start or stop? Since this is all happening in the very fresh new growth seam keratin, it is much more effected by the environmental and the metabolic balance factors at this point as well.

I don't have answers, but I can start by giving us questions...

Fast growth seems to me to make it happen more. The most actively growing tortoises seem to have better odds of getting it. So while younger - in their first 3 years in particular. Does a faster growing tortoise possibly "outpace" pigment production in some new keratin?

Diet. Could something be missing or less optimal in the diet that helps in pigment production?

Heat. Since dark pigment is "used" by animals to help their shells better absorb heat while basking, is there a way a more constant, stable heat, starts to trigger less pigment production in a young animal?

Artificial light. bioactive UV triggers melanin production in human skin (tanning). Perhaps a lower level of UV reduces the production proclivity of the keratin and is shows in random areas.

Maybe it just happens! Leftover patterns like the leopards exhibit, but much less common as they are "further" down the 'species adaptation' line towards genetically developing a true black carapace? As they move towards more shade/forest cover, the need for grassland coloration is not as beneficial as a black shell. Better camouflage in deeper shade, and better at quickly absorbing heat and limiting exposed basking time???

As far as your Brazilian vs. Northern -

As noted, I am not a redfoot person. My GUESS would be that the ones from a wetter area perhaps have developed a pattern of habits that leave them less "concerned" about finding moist hiding spots. Tortoises are great at sensing moisture and temperature levels. In a consistently wetter climate there would be less need to seek out cover to find that. IN a drier area, survival would be much more dependent upon the habits of seeking cover for proper health and growth as a young tortoise. Have you noticed a difference in the way your tortoises dig in or find cover - Brazilian vs Northern? Are the Brazilian more prone to seek cover more? This can be hard to judge in captivity as they get so used to "the food god" and quickly develop very different patterns than a wild tortoise!
 

Anyfoot

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Marbling is when you get an area where pigment does not set in the new keratin and uncolored keratin grows. With stars, radiated, geometric, etc. the pigment sets in patterns that are set, and the unpigmented areas are left in specific areas creating rays. In leopards this grows in a very "unpatterned" way - so what stops or starts the laying down of pigment in an area seems totally random. Mabling seems to follow this random pattern, but to an extremely variable extent.

So what causes an area to grow without pigment? It is predetermined in stars and geometric. Less so in radiated. And random in leopards. IN tortoises that are 'normally' totally pigmented, we can get random areas of non-pigmented keratin. So in some, it is a genetic programming and the keratin at certain locations consistently do not have pigment. But where random, what triggers it to start or stop? Since this is all happening in the very fresh new growth seam keratin, it is much more effected by the environmental and the metabolic balance factors at this point as well.

I don't have answers, but I can start by giving us questions...

Fast growth seems to me to make it happen more. The most actively growing tortoises seem to have better odds of getting it. So while younger - in their first 3 years in particular. Does a faster growing tortoise possibly "outpace" pigment production in some new keratin?

Diet. Could something be missing or less optimal in the diet that helps in pigment production?

Heat. Since dark pigment is "used" by animals to help their shells better absorb heat while basking, is there a way a more constant, stable heat, starts to trigger less pigment production in a young animal?

Artificial light. bioactive UV triggers melanin production in human skin (tanning). Perhaps a lower level of UV reduces the production proclivity of the keratin and is shows in random areas.

Maybe it just happens! Leftover patterns like the leopards exhibit, but much less common as they are "further" down the 'species adaptation' line towards genetically developing a true black carapace? As they move towards more shade/forest cover, the need for grassland coloration is not as beneficial as a black shell. Better camouflage in deeper shade, and better at quickly absorbing heat and limiting exposed basking time???

As far as your Brazilian vs. Northern -

As noted, I am not a redfoot person. My GUESS would be that the ones from a wetter area perhaps have developed a pattern of habits that leave them less "concerned" about finding moist hiding spots. Tortoises are great at sensing moisture and temperature levels. In a consistently wetter climate there would be less need to seek out cover to find that. IN a drier area, survival would be much more dependent upon the habits of seeking cover for proper health and growth as a young tortoise. Have you noticed a difference in the way your tortoises dig in or find cover - Brazilian vs Northern? Are the Brazilian more prone to seek cover more? This can be hard to judge in captivity as they get so used to "the food god" and quickly develop very different patterns than a wild tortoise!
Thanks Mark. Much to ponder over there.
I can’t say I see any difference in habits between northern vs Brazilian. But like you say, their habits change in captivity.
 
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