Decomposed Granite indoors with a Russian

Rusky

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What do the folks have to say about using decomposed granite or some type of mixture with a Russian indoors?

I know plenty of people use it in outdoor enclosures and Chris Leone (I can't figure out how to tag on mobile) does in a mixture for his Egyptians.

I've been using a mixture of cypress mulch and coco coir for over a year now, but it's so messy. I would otherwise use orchid bark, but now I want to go for a more realistic, naturalistic look.

I'm also not too concerned about impaction because my Russian has been very stable and I haven't noticed any behavior that might lead to that. He eats from a large rock.
 

HermanniChris

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I use it only with adult tortoises now and it's heavily mixed into a substrate otherwise comprised of top soil, sand and peat moss. I also only use it indoors for arid species like T. graeca marokkensis, T. g. nabeulensis and T. g. terrestris.
 

Rusky

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I use it only with adult tortoises now and it's heavily mixed into a substrate otherwise comprised of top soil, sand and peat moss. I also only use it indoors for arid species like T. graeca marokkensis, T. g. nabeulensis and T. g. terrestris.
Do you foresee any issues in using a mixture of topsoil and DG? He's an adult Russian
 

Cheryl Hills

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Russian torts like to dig to help moderate there temps. I don’t see where he would be able to dig is rock.
 

Rusky

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Russian torts like to dig to help moderate there temps. I don’t see where he would be able to dig is rock.
DG is a substrate that can be packed hard if moistened and loose if dry. It's often used in landscaping. I feel like it is very similar to what Russians would have in their natural environment.
 

Rusky

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In this video you can see it used at the turtle conservancy - I'm unsure if just for the burrow or for the entire enclosure. Skip to 9:50

 

Cheryl Hills

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DG is a substrate that can be packed hard if moistened and loose if dry. It's often used in landscaping. I feel like it is very similar to what Russians would have in their natural environment.
Russians need looser soil. There soil should also be moist. They use this to thermoregulate there body temps. If it is packed hard, they will not be able to do this. Please read our caresheets on Russian torts. These were written by species experts with plenty of first hand knowledge and many years of raising them.
Rock just is not a good substrate.
 

Tom

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I wouldn't use it. Huge impaction risk. I wouldn't use any sand either.

The Turtle Conservancy is not a leader in tortoise husbandry either. They produce a lot of pyramided babies and they are still using the same old outdated info that has been in use for decades.

Coco coir is good for baby Russians, but as you've seen, its too messy for adults. Orchid bark is the way to go.
 

Rusky

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I wouldn't use it. Huge impaction risk. I wouldn't use any sand either.

The Turtle Conservancy is not a leader in tortoise husbandry either. They produce a lot of pyramided babies and they are still using the same old outdated info that has been in use for decades.

Coco coir is good for baby Russians, but as you've seen, its too messy for adults. Orchid bark is the way to go.
I understand, and I want to make sure it will be safe before making any decisions. One question: I often see that for outdoor enclosures, the native ground or just topsoil is recommended. However, when topsoil is discussed in relation to indoor enclosures, it's usually dismissed as an impaction risk. What's the reasoning behind this?
Sometimes I just feel like the way we talk about tortoises on the forum they wouldn't last two minutes in the wild. [emoji3]
 

HermanniChris

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Unfortunately you're going to get the back and forth no matter where you go with these kinds of things. Think natural. You're right, it is very naturalistic for them to have a substrate like this (not solely but a mix is good) and loose soil absolutely is not. These tortoises have thick limbs, extremely powerful muscles and strong nails. They are built like this for a reason. They don't bounce around on fluffy clouds all day. They are living, breathing dinosaurs and they're still round for a reason.
When Kenan was filming here, we discussed substrate a bit and the mixes I make for various species indoors (outdoors we don't need to here because we live on the coast and our natural sandy ground is perfect for tortoises) but I don't think that info made it into the episodes he aired. Our tortoises have to work for it just like they would in nature. No one is expert, in fact you'll never, ever find one in this community because they don't exist. We can only share what has worked over, and over, and over, and over again or what has not. The truth is, anything can cause impaction. It's all in how you set the animal(s) up and how you maintain the environment. In addition to this, look at how many people use coco coir exclusively....the amount of baby tortoises we've come across with clogged nares and respiratory issues from it is staggering. Yet, because people are so scared of impaction, they use it. If you'd like to have a more in depth conversation about these things, get me through my site HermanniHaven.com. I can share A LOT, I just don't have the time to stay on here for prolonged periods unfortunately, especially while I'm trying to update the Greek tortoise care sheet.
 

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I understand, and I want to make sure it will be safe before making any decisions. One question: I often see that for outdoor enclosures, the native ground or just topsoil is recommended. However, when topsoil is discussed in relation to indoor enclosures, it's usually dismissed as an impaction risk. What's the reasoning behind this?
Sometimes I just feel like the way we talk about tortoises on the forum they wouldn't last two minutes in the wild. [emoji3]
To your last point: Most of them, the vast majority, don't survive in the wild. I've seen studies demonstrating that somewhere between 300 and 1000 hatchlings die for every one that makes it to maturity. Obviously, this is for a wide variety of reasons. My recent foray into the world of falconry has taught me more about how animals barely survive in the wild than anything I've studied before, but I digress...

To your question: My tortoises are on the dirt on the ground here when they are outside. Tiny babies are sunned and exercised in tubs with substrate, but once they hit around 3-4 inches, they are in pens on the ground with the native soil.

I don't think topsoil is an impaction risk. I have three primary complaints about any bought-in-a-bag soil. 1. Its messy. It turns to mud and sticks to the tortoise and everything else. This will vary wildly depending on the soil composition. 2. Most soil comes with all sorts of additives like perlite, fertilizers and "wetting agents". These additives are bad for tortoises, and new tortoise keepers might not understand the implications, even if they do take the time to read the ingredients list on the bag. When someone with a lot of experience says to use soil, I think some percentage of new keepers are going to end up with the wrong stuff. Conversely, if I tell people to use "fine grade orchid bark", there can't be any mistakes of judgement or knowledge. 3. You can't know what composted yard waste that local bought-in-a-bag soil is made of. Maybe its harmless weeds from a vacant lot. On the other hand, maybe its trimmings from an oleander bush, or grass trimmings from someone's chemically treated lawn. I once bought a bag of soil for a 4x8' outdoor planter that was to double as a sunning enclosure for babies. Some of the organic matter in this mix hadn't quite fully composted yet and there was obvious partially composted jacaranda leaves present. Had one of my babies decided to eat those leaves, it very well could have been fatal. I don't have this problem on coco coir, orchid bark or cypress mulch.

Hope this helps to explain my point of view. Questions and conversation are welcome.
 

Rusky

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To your last point: Most of them, the vast majority, don't survive in the wild. I've seen studies demonstrating that somewhere between 300 and 1000 hatchlings die for every one that makes it to maturity. Obviously, this is for a wide variety of reasons. My recent foray into the world of falconry has taught me more about how animals barely survive in the wild than anything I've studied before, but I digress...

To your question: My tortoises are on the dirt on the ground here when they are outside. Tiny babies are sunned and exercised in tubs with substrate, but once they hit around 3-4 inches, they are in pens on the ground with the native soil.

I don't think topsoil is an impaction risk. I have three primary complaints about any bought-in-a-bag soil. 1. Its messy. It turns to mud and sticks to the tortoise and everything else. This will vary wildly depending on the soil composition. 2. Most soil comes with all sorts of additives like perlite, fertilizers and "wetting agents". These additives are bad for tortoises, and new tortoise keepers might not understand the implications, even if they do take the time to read the ingredients list on the bag. When someone with a lot of experience says to use soil, I think some percentage of new keepers are going to end up with the wrong stuff. Conversely, if I tell people to use "fine grade orchid bark", there can't be any mistakes of judgement or knowledge. 3. You can't know what composted yard waste that local bought-in-a-bag soil is made of. Maybe its harmless weeds from a vacant lot. On the other hand, maybe its trimmings from an oleander bush, or grass trimmings from someone's chemically treated lawn. I once bought a bag of soil for a 4x8' outdoor planter that was to double as a sunning enclosure for babies. Some of the organic matter in this mix hadn't quite fully composted yet and there was obvious partially composted jacaranda leaves present. Had one of my babies decided to eat those leaves, it very well could have been fatal. I don't have this problem on coco coir, orchid bark or cypress mulch.

Hope this helps to explain my point of view. Questions and conversation are welcome.
- Wow that's a huge number I'd be interested in seeing those studies

- So is topsoil digestible?

- That makes a lot of sense about the risk of the wrong composted material

Seems like nearly every substrate is a compromise to some level!

I'm a very particular person and aesthetics and realistic/naturalistic appearances really appeal to me, so I'm just never fully satisfied when I see my happy healthy tortoise clambering around over pulverized coconut shell and wood chips.

I'm assuming you have personal experience with impaction. Is there any thread you can link to where those stories are mentioned?
 

Tom

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- Wow that's a huge number I'd be interested in seeing those studies

- So is topsoil digestible?

- That makes a lot of sense about the risk of the wrong composted material

Seems like nearly every substrate is a compromise to some level!

I'm a very particular person and aesthetics and realistic/naturalistic appearances really appeal to me, so I'm just never fully satisfied when I see my happy healthy tortoise clambering around over pulverized coconut shell and wood chips.

I'm assuming you have personal experience with impaction. Is there any thread you can link to where those stories are mentioned?
Is top soil digestible? After some thought, I'd have to say no. Not really. Topsoil is comprised of many components. Some components might have some ability to be digested, but not all of the components. Other elements that are not digestible might be able to pass through the GI tract, but a high sand content increases the chances of impaction.

I've tried every substrate there is. I've kept tortoises of various species and sizes on everything over the years. After all that time, trial and error, I only use orchid bark for most cases in indoor enclosures. I'll use coco coir for Testudo or DT babies, but that would be the only exception. Outdoors, they are on the dirt in their enclosure.

I work with animals for a living, and so did my wife for almost 30 years. She was a vet tech for 13 years, then, upon finishing her master's degree in microbiology, she went to work as a veterinary consultant for another 15 years before retiring from that job. I started working in pet shops in the mid 80's, and still work with a wide variety of exotic animals daily. We know a lot of vets and are fortunate to call many of them personal friends. My vet friends all know of my tortoise affliction, so they call me for consults and to share all their tortoise case stories. This has shown me a greater cross section of what happens out in the world in a HUGE variety of housing and husbandry situations. More than any individual tortoise keeper could ever experience. I don't have any first hand impaction stories with my own animals. Not even from the years when I was using all the "wrong" substrates. My words of wisdom come from all the cases my vets have shown me, and the few times I've walked into a vet clinic in time to see an impaction surgery and case history first hand. I think that once a person witnesses a single tortoise impaction surgery, the desire to use questionable substrates will evaporate.

"Knowledge is learning from your own mistakes. Wisdom is learning from the mistakes of others."
-Quoted from the book "Accipitrine Behavioral Problems. Diagnosis and Treatment", by Michael McDermott
 

Rusky

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Is top soil digestible? After some thought, I'd have to say no. Not really. Topsoil is comprised of many components. Some components might have some ability to be digested, but not all of the components. Other elements that are not digestible might be able to pass through the GI tract, but a high sand content increases the chances of impaction.

I've tried every substrate there is. I've kept tortoises of various species and sizes on everything over the years. After all that time, trial and error, I only use orchid bark for most cases in indoor enclosures. I'll use coco coir for Testudo or DT babies, but that would be the only exception. Outdoors, they are on the dirt in their enclosure.

I work with animals for a living, and so did my wife for almost 30 years. She was a vet tech for 13 years, then, upon finishing her master's degree in microbiology, she went to work as a veterinary consultant for another 15 years before retiring from that job. I started working in pet shops in the mid 80's, and still work with a wide variety of exotic animals daily. We know a lot of vets and are fortunate to call many of them personal friends. My vet friends all know of my tortoise affliction, so they call me for consults and to share all their tortoise case stories. This has shown me a greater cross section of what happens out in the world in a HUGE variety of housing and husbandry situations. More than any individual tortoise keeper could ever experience. I don't have any first hand impaction stories with my own animals. Not even from the years when I was using all the "wrong" substrates. My words of wisdom come from all the cases my vets have shown me, and the few times I've walked into a vet clinic in time to see an impaction surgery and case history first hand. I think that once a person witnesses a single tortoise impaction surgery, the desire to use questionable substrates will evaporate.

"Knowledge is learning from your own mistakes. Wisdom is learning from the mistakes of others."
-Quoted from the book "Accipitrine Behavioral Problems. Diagnosis and Treatment", by Michael McDermott
Massive respect, great to have a platform like this where people of all different backgrounds like this can interact.

Do you think that the majority of those impaction cases were tortoises with "average" inexperienced owners?

E.g. as a result of incorrect diet and the tortoise ingested substrate to fulfill a craving.

Or a substrate like playsand was used.

Or food was served directly on substrate.

Or a red bulb encouraged the tortoise to eat the attractive red substrate.

Chris has never had a case of impaction and neither have you, and I've heard the same from many people who use questionable substrates but with otherwise great husbandry.

I hope I don't sound like I'm arguing, this is my way of learning.
 

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