Did we do something wrong? (Now updated)

NSH

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I will try to shorten this as much as i can.
We acquire 3 baby leopards from really good breeder. Done research here as we already own a 6+ years old sulcata which we raise from 30g hatchling to now 25kg beauty. So all info is from here.
So i i picked up babys who are between 3-4 months old. As soon as we came home we slowly rised temps, and trip was 12h but in styrobox with heatpack and temp in transport was 26c.
We prepare cage week before. Uvb 10.0 in 22 cm height from babys, hot spot 35-36 C, in angle of 30 degree so it is nice big radius. Substrate is compressed coco earth so it is not soft. Lower temp in cage is 28c, night about 27-28. Humidity neber bellow 80%.
Food is all that we used before for sulcata from this forum. Foods rich in calcium wirh good cal-phos ratio plus mazuri. Cuttlefish bone in cage amd 2* a week calcium. Natural sunlight (sun) for a 20 min a day, not possible more because of winter temps here. Soaking 1* a day foor good 30 min.
So, i came home, give them 4hourst to slowly warm up. Soak them, one baby who was middle in size from 3 babys drink asap water like crazy and continue this for 5 days. They have water in cahe and this one drink at least 5-7 times a day. We woork at home so eyes are on them non stop. Weights were 26g for smallest, 28g for middle and 34 g for biggest. They all gain about 4-6 gramms in a 3 week, shell nice and firm but plastron soft from day one. Middle one start to show problems from day one, drinking a lot, eating only in morning and late afternoon and sleeping rest. Before 4 days she start to limp on first right leg, but eating as usuall, after that 2 days was ok, eating, limping gone but not lifting herself as should, day after that she was nit moving anymore or eating. We immediatley use baby carrot soaks for 4* a day but she died in night. So my queation is, what dis we miss? HFS? Kidney failure? Our guilt? Also 26-32g ratio for 3-4 months old babies are good or on low end?
 

JoesMum

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I am sorry to hear of your loss. Please read this thread by @Tom on Hatchling Failure Syndrome as I think it will help you. It is very likely that you have done nothing at all wrong and that this little one was never going to make it. It is very hard to accept the death of a pet, but please try not to blame yourself.


https://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/hatchling-failure-syndrome.23493/
 

NSH

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JoesMum, im im familiar with all artcle here, been here for 5-6 years but in some cases i must question myself and ask ones with more experiance than me and my wife in tortoise. Im in reptile hobby for 14years and we mainly concentrate on corallus gene animals and in past we breed chameleons with 100% hatch rate and 0 deaths, also some other spp of reptiles but never tortoises and in this area im allways open to hear more experianced than me. Thank you on kind words JoesMum
 

TortoiseRacket

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I will try to shorten this as much as i can.
We acquire 3 baby leopards from really good breeder. Done research here as we already own a 6+ years old sulcata which we raise from 30g hatchling to now 25kg beauty. So all info is from here.
So i i picked up babys who are between 3-4 months old. As soon as we came home we slowly rised temps, and trip was 12h but in styrobox with heatpack and temp in transport was 26c.
We prepare cage week before. Uvb 10.0 in 22 cm height from babys, hot spot 35-36 C, in angle of 30 degree so it is nice big radius. Substrate is compressed coco earth so it is not soft. Lower temp in cage is 28c, night about 27-28. Humidity neber bellow 80%.
Food is all that we used before for sulcata from this forum. Foods rich in calcium wirh good cal-phos ratio plus mazuri. Cuttlefish bone in cage amd 2* a week calcium. Natural sunlight (sun) for a 20 min a day, not possible more because of winter temps here. Soaking 1* a day foor good 30 min.
So, i came home, give them 4hourst to slowly warm up. Soak them, one baby who was middle in size from 3 babys drink asap water like crazy and continue this for 5 days. They have water in cahe and this one drink at least 5-7 times a day. We woork at home so eyes are on them non stop. Weights were 26g for smallest, 28g for middle and 34 g for biggest. They all gain about 4-6 gramms in a 3 week, shell nice and firm but plastron soft from day one. Middle one start to show problems from day one, drinking a lot, eating only in morning and late afternoon and sleeping rest. Before 4 days she start to limp on first right leg, but eating as usuall, after that 2 days was ok, eating, limping gone but not lifting herself as should, day after that she was nit moving anymore or eating. We immediatley use baby carrot soaks for 4* a day but she died in night. So my queation is, what dis we miss? HFS? Kidney failure? Our guilt? Also 26-32g ratio for 3-4 months old babies are good or on low end?
Please do not take it out on yourself! You did everything right! Sometimes you just have some weak babies and there really isn’t anything you can do about it. Do what you are doing now!
-Mickey :)
 

Tom

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I will try to shorten this as much as i can.
We acquire 3 baby leopards from really good breeder. Done research here as we already own a 6+ years old sulcata which we raise from 30g hatchling to now 25kg beauty. So all info is from here.
So i i picked up babys who are between 3-4 months old. As soon as we came home we slowly rised temps, and trip was 12h but in styrobox with heatpack and temp in transport was 26c.
We prepare cage week before. Uvb 10.0 in 22 cm height from babys, hot spot 35-36 C, in angle of 30 degree so it is nice big radius. Substrate is compressed coco earth so it is not soft. Lower temp in cage is 28c, night about 27-28. Humidity neber bellow 80%.
Food is all that we used before for sulcata from this forum. Foods rich in calcium wirh good cal-phos ratio plus mazuri. Cuttlefish bone in cage amd 2* a week calcium. Natural sunlight (sun) for a 20 min a day, not possible more because of winter temps here. Soaking 1* a day foor good 30 min.
So, i came home, give them 4hourst to slowly warm up. Soak them, one baby who was middle in size from 3 babys drink asap water like crazy and continue this for 5 days. They have water in cahe and this one drink at least 5-7 times a day. We woork at home so eyes are on them non stop. Weights were 26g for smallest, 28g for middle and 34 g for biggest. They all gain about 4-6 gramms in a 3 week, shell nice and firm but plastron soft from day one. Middle one start to show problems from day one, drinking a lot, eating only in morning and late afternoon and sleeping rest. Before 4 days she start to limp on first right leg, but eating as usuall, after that 2 days was ok, eating, limping gone but not lifting herself as should, day after that she was nit moving anymore or eating. We immediatley use baby carrot soaks for 4* a day but she died in night. So my queation is, what dis we miss? HFS? Kidney failure? Our guilt? Also 26-32g ratio for 3-4 months old babies are good or on low end?
Everything you did sounds spot on. This would make me turn my attention to the breeder. Where are you, and what was the source of these tortoises? How were they started in their first few days and weeks before you bought them. There is, and has been for decades, some HUGE misconceptions about how to start and raise babies of this species and other species too. For decades we were all taught to house them dry on dry substrate. We were incorrectly told that moisture and humidity would cause shell rot and respiratory infections. Sadly, most of the people breeding this and other species is still following that incorrect advice. If these babies were started on dry substrate and soaked once a week before you got them, which could result in internal organ damage and eventual failure, then nothing you did as a new owner could save them.

Its a hard concept to grasp. You see a seemingly okay, living, breathing animal, and you think if it is cared for correctly, it should thrive, but the insidious damage done by unnaturally dry conditions and the resultant chronic dehydration takes weeks or months to kill them.

The lack of weight gain is an indicator of what is going on there too. They should be gaining 5-10 grams EACH week. The 4-6 grams you saw over three weeks could be accounted for by your soaking and housing routine. They simply took on water and went from a dehydrated state to a better hydrated state in your good care.

Not the news you want to hear, but most of the "good" breeders out in the world are still doing it the old wrong way.

What foods were you feeding them? What was the outside ambient temperature during their 20 minute sunning sessions? What type of 10.0 UV bulb are you using?
 

NSH

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Everything you did sounds spot on. This would make me turn my attention to the breeder. Where are you, and what was the source of these tortoises? How were they started in their first few days and weeks before you bought them. There is, and has been for decades, some HUGE misconceptions about how to start and raise babies of this species and other species too. For decades we were all taught to house them dry on dry substrate. We were incorrectly told that moisture and humidity would cause shell rot and respiratory infections. Sadly, most of the people breeding this and other species is still following that incorrect advice. If these babies were started on dry substrate and soaked once a week before you got them, which could result in internal organ damage and eventual failure, then nothing you did as a new owner could save them.

Im in european union. And yes it were soked a 2 times a week, as he lives on coast and babys are keept outside. Breeder is informed about situation and this poor baby will be replaced.

Its a hard concept to grasp. You see a seemingly okay, living, breathing animal, and you think if it is cared for correctly, it should thrive, but the insidious damage done by unnaturally dry conditions and the resultant chronic dehydration takes weeks or months to kill them.

The lack of weight gain is an indicator of what is going on there too. They should be gaining 5-10 grams EACH week. The 4-6 grams you saw over three weeks could be accounted for by your soaking and housing routine. They simply took on water and went from a dehydrated state to a better hydrated state in your good care.

Not the news you want to hear, but most of the "good" breeders out in the world are still doing it the old wrong way.

What foods were you feeding them? What was the outside ambient temperature during their 20 minute sunning sessions? What type of 10.0 UV bulb are you using?

Im offering opuntia pads, dandelions, huge variety of grases and alowed succulents as we love them and have them in greenhouse. Also some home grown vegetables again all from this forum that can we use as staple and some that we use in moderation.
Uvb is tube from exo terra 60 cm long, and when i provide real sun im away from open door near our fireplace so temp on babys is never below 28c, im watching with tempgun. Also when here is no sun i soak them in warm water under hid lamp.
I must say that today was first day that both eat like there is no tomorrow, they eat at least 6*. Will update how this will go on. If i need something to correct please let me know. Also i will edit later for names of plants in english, need pc for that
 

Tom

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Im in european union. And yes it were soked a 2 times a week, as he lives on coast and babys are keept outside. Breeder is informed about situation and this poor baby will be replaced.



Im offering opuntia pads, dandelions, huge variety of grases and alowed succulents as we love them and have them in greenhouse. Also some home grown vegetables again all from this forum that can we use as staple and some that we use in moderation.
Uvb is tube from exo terra 60 cm long, and when i provide real sun im away from open door near our fireplace so temp on babys is never below 28c, im watching with tempgun. Also when here is no sun i soak them in warm water under hid lamp.
I must say that today was first day that both eat like there is no tomorrow, they eat at least 6*. Will update how this will go on. If i need something to correct please let me know. Also i will edit later for names of plants in english, need pc for that
Soaking babies twice a week is not enough. Outside all day is not good for babies in any climate or weather.

The EU is a big place with a lot of different climates. I don't need your address, but it would be helpful to know what part of the world you are in as this would give us some idea of the climate you are working with.
 

NSH

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Tom im in croatia, breeder in mediterranian part of europe (portugal or spain)
Yes i know for soaks, it was strange to me and i did right way anyway
 

Tom

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Tom im in croatia, breeder in mediterranian part of europe (portugal or spain)
Yes i know for soaks, it was strange to me and i did right way anyway
That is similar to my weather here. I think we've discovered the issue. If the breeder was keeping the babies outside all day and only soaking twice a week, the babies were chronically dehydrated. The excessive drinking would also point to this.
 

NSH

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As for plants names in latin or english:
Plantago
Young dandelion leaves
4 different kind of grases
Lambs lettuce
chichorum (2-3 a week)
Smooth Sow thistle
Prickly Sow thistle
Frisee (2x a week)
Opuntia pads
house leek
some allowed sedums
also some graptopetalum (we call here this plant stone flowe, think that english name is mother of pearl)
and few other plants now and then
 

NSH

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That is similar to my weather here. I think we've discovered the issue. If the breeder was keeping the babies outside all day and only soaking twice a week, the babies were chronically dehydrated. The excessive drinking would also point to this.

So my and wife guts were right, i just want to hear that! They look really sunken in when come to us, hind legs kinda thin and heavy wrinkled,after some days they look better, and today nice puffy like they should. I would keep fighting and do as i was until now, this forum is pure gold!
 

Tom

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As for plants names in latin or english:
Plantago
Young dandelion leaves
4 different kind of grases
Lambs lettuce
chichorum (2-3 a week)
Smooth Sow thistle
Prickly Sow thistle
Frisee (2x a week)
Opuntia pads
house leek
some allowed sedums
also some graptopetalum (we call here this plant stone flowe, think that english name is mother of pearl)
and few other plants now and then
Sounds like a great variety of plants.
 

NSH

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Thank you all on your answers and support
 

NSH

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After one month here are results, smaller one is up to 32g, bigger one 44g. They eats like pigs but those damn gramms are so slow in going up. Shell is nice and hard, plastron still soft (like plastic lid not musshy). Eating grasses, endive, succulents, opuntia pads, plantain end some weeds.
Pictures

IMG_20190127_172315.jpg IMG_20190127_172311.jpg
 

Yvonne G

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They look great! Growth will be kind of slow because of their dry start. But once they get going, the growth will take off.
 
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wellington

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Keep up the good work. Hopefully these two will keep thriving.
Try to convince the breeder to change his hatchling care. There has to be a lot more out there not making it.
 

TechnoCheese

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I hate to be the one to say it, but now that you have a pair, they need to be separated. While tortoises often do fine in groups because the stress is spread out and they are able to establish a pecking order, in pairs, there is always a dominant and a subordinate, and neither can escape. One is constantly being bullied, and the other can’t get the intruder out of it’s territory.

You could possibly add more in more tortoises to fix it, but they would all have to be separated during the quarantine period, and they would all have to be similar sizes.
 

NSH

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Keep up the good work. Hopefully these two will keep thriving.
Try to convince the breeder to change his hatchling care. There has to be a lot more out there not making it.

Yes, that is my plan. It crushes me when i see how many tortoises is mistreated and how many dies from simple things like humidity and diet....
 

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