How difficult to get CBW Permit?

mrnewberry

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How hard is it to get the federal CBW permit? I saw that it was nearly impossible a couple of years ago. Is that still the case?
 

H2447INTX

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I'm in for this discussion, I have no facts to offer.

I will be applying in the next month or so simply because I want a permit myself, the ability to obtain outside of my state and possibly a breeding pair.

With that being said, I have asked and have been told "good luck" , and ballisticly if I do not have a adult age breeding pair of what ever species I put on the application, chances ar very low.

So I'm open for any more info on this as well.

Still plan on applying see what happens.
 

Tom

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It used to be relatively easy. Then, a few years ago, I was told they stopped giving them out to "regular" people. Bill Z corrected me and said they some people were still getting them, and the then the last thing I saw was that people were unable to get them again. Not sure what the status is now. The people Yvonne tagged will have the best and most current answer for you.
 

H2447INTX

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It used to be relatively easy. Then, a few years ago, I was told they stopped giving them out to "regular" people. Bill Z corrected me and said they some people were still getting them, and the then the last thing I saw was that people were unable to get them again. Not sure what the status is now. The people Yvonne tagged will have the best and most current answer for you.


Thanks, I have even sent emails to the federal wildlife and , got nothing.

I have a couple people with CBW on my application so maybe that will help.

Thanks
 

Sterant

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I fear that the situation is worse now than is was even with the prior Branch Chief. The current interpretation is that the CBW is meant for institutional users, and in rare cases, private individuals with institutional connections/collaborations.

I will assume you want to get a CBW for radiated tortoises.

I have read a couple recent denial letters, and the reasons for denial have become more advanced. They are now asking that someone has multiple, diverse bloodlines in their collection, involvement with the Species Survival Plan and Studbook, significant prior experience, and institutional affiliation. This certainly precludes those new to radiated tortoises from getting a permit, and really excludes all but the most experienced individuals with some significant background in turtle and tortoise captive breeding.

I have not done a FOIL request this year, but in 2016 and 2017 only a couple individual renewals were granted, and I only know of 1 new application that was approved (in 2016).

In 2018, I have not heard of a single new application being approved outside of institutional applicants, but I may have missed one. I have heard of multiple denials.

If you have the ability to get Radiated tortoises from within your state, or seek help from someone in your state with a permit, that would be your best (and maybe only) option.
 

mrnewberry

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I fear that the situation is worse now than is was even with the prior Branch Chief. The current interpretation is that the CBW is meant for institutional users, and in rare cases, private individuals with institutional connections/collaborations.

I will assume you want to get a CBW for radiated tortoises.

I have read a couple recent denial letters, and the reasons for denial have become more advanced. They are now asking that someone has multiple, diverse bloodlines in their collection, involvement with the Species Survival Plan and Studbook, significant prior experience, and institutional affiliation. This certainly precludes those new to radiated tortoises from getting a permit, and really excludes all but the most experienced individuals with some significant background in turtle and tortoise captive breeding.

I have not done a FOIL request this year, but in 2016 and 2017 only a couple individual renewals were granted, and I only know of 1 new application that was approved (in 2016).

In 2018, I have not heard of a single new application being approved outside of institutional applicants, but I may have missed one. I have heard of multiple denials.

If you have the ability to get Radiated tortoises from within your state, or seek help from someone in your state with a permit, that would be your best (and maybe only) option.

What state is Angleton in?

That stinks. No radiated keepers in Arkansas that I know of.
 

H2447INTX

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I fear that the situation is worse now than is was even with the prior Branch Chief. The current interpretation is that the CBW is meant for institutional users, and in rare cases, private individuals with institutional connections/collaborations.

I will assume you want to get a CBW for radiated tortoises.

I have read a couple recent denial letters, and the reasons for denial have become more advanced. They are now asking that someone has multiple, diverse bloodlines in their collection, involvement with the Species Survival Plan and Studbook, significant prior experience, and institutional affiliation. This certainly precludes those new to radiated tortoises from getting a permit, and really excludes all but the most experienced individuals with some significant background in turtle and tortoise captive breeding.

I have not done a FOIL request this year, but in 2016 and 2017 only a couple individual renewals were granted, and I only know of 1 new application that was approved (in 2016).

In 2018, I have not heard of a single new application being approved outside of institutional applicants, but I may have missed one. I have heard of multiple denials.

If you have the ability to get Radiated tortoises from within your state, or seek help from someone in your state with a permit, that would be your best (and maybe only) option.


Thanks for the detailed information be it a bit disheartening.

I currently have 4 rads all of diff bloodlines, but still the same bloodlines we have in TX.
One is SB registered and i have sent off info to get SB # assigned to to the others.

Most people will not have affiliation with zoos or tortoises propigation foundation, although some of us would like to get involved and have that connection that would make an impact/difference in the species.

I guess its a question of do I still want to try, knowing basically it's a 200 dollar donation when its all said and done.


Worst case I buy more over time , raise them and begin breading see how things change over the yrs
 

Sterant

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Thanks for the detailed information be it a bit disheartening.

I currently have 4 rads all of diff bloodlines, but still the same bloodlines we have in TX.
One is SB registered and i have sent off info to get SB # assigned to to the others.

Most people will not have affiliation with zoos or tortoises propigation foundation, although some of us would like to get involved and have that connection that would make an impact/difference in the species.

I guess its a question of do I still want to try, knowing basically it's a 200 dollar donation when its all said and done.


Worst case I buy more over time , raise them and begin breading see how things change over the yrs
If you live in Texas, you have many options to buy Radiated tortoises in-state - if it were me, I would just do that. Jay Russo and Tom Motlow are both breeders in TX.
 

H2447INTX

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If you live in Texas, you have many options to buy Radiated tortoises in-state - if it were me, I would just do that. Jay Russo and Tom Motlow are both breeders in TX.

Yes sir those are the two I know and have bought from.

You know of any others in TX?
 

Sterant

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Yes sir those are the two I know and have bought from.

You know of any others in TX?
I will look in the studbook and see what I find. Also remember, you can trade a radiata from TX for one from another state as long as it is a rad for rad trade and its 1 for 1. Meaning you can trade 1 baby for 1 baby, but you can't trade, for instance, 5 babies for an adult. Stupid, but thats the way the law reads, and you don't need a CBW to do that.
 

H2447INTX

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I will look in the studbook and see what I find. Also remember, you can trade a radiata from TX for one from another state as long as it is a rad for rad trade and its 1 for 1. Meaning you can trade 1 baby for 1 baby, but you can't trade, for instance, 5 babies for an adult. Stupid, but thats the way the law reads, and you don't need a CBW to do that.

Yes I have read a bit of the legal txt.

Also for breading purposes, loan for stud purposes correct?

What about Gifting, no transfer er of leagal tender ? Just give one to other breeders/collector?

Thanks again.
 

Sterant

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Yes I have read a bit of the legal txt.

Also for breading purposes, loan for stud purposes correct?

What about Gifting, no transfer er of leagal tender ? Just give one to other breeders/collector?

Thanks again.
Yes, breeding loans are fine (no CBW needed). Gifts are also fine.
 

Kapidolo Farms

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In a lament about this situation, Russ Gurley ( the guy behind or maybe in front of TTPG) suggested that maybe people could just give a few away from time to time. Sounds crazy, like who would give away a radiated tortoise, right?

Kapidolo Farms has several, none have laid eggs yet, so pretty much an idea for the future...

I'll will offer free radiated tortoises if/when. You'd have to apply with your rejected CBW permit app, and after several have been collected, I figured myself and few others could review those apps and just give that person a young radiated tortoise. States with low populations would also be skewed to find a person to get one.

I still have to sort out how someone may twist the rest of the idea as wrong, but I'd want the recipient to donate some $$ to the conservation organization that is chelonian oriented. Money would move, in relation to the transfer of a tortoise, but it's not a quid pro quo so not a sale or exchange.

Any $hit-house lawyers or real attorneys care to comment?
 

mrnewberry

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In a lament about this situation, Russ Gurley ( the guy behind or maybe in front of TTPG) suggested that maybe people could just give a few away from time to time. Sounds crazy, like who would give away a radiated tortoise, right?

Kapidolo Farms has several, none have laid eggs yet, so pretty much an idea for the future...

I'll will offer free radiated tortoises if/when. You'd have to apply with your rejected CBW permit app, and after several have been collected, I figured myself and few others could review those apps and just give that person a young radiated tortoise. States with low populations would also be skewed to find a person to get one.

I still have to sort out how someone may twist the rest of the idea as wrong, but I'd want the recipient to donate some $$ to the conservation organization that is chelonian oriented. Money would move, in relation to the transfer of a tortoise, but it's not a quid pro quo so not a sale or exchange.

Any $hit-house lawyers or real attorneys care to comment?

Sounds like a cool idea to me. I would think that so long as you weren’t somehow personally benefitting from the donation to the organization it would work. (Not that I have any legal expertise.) You would definitely want to make sure you dotted your i’s and crossed your t’s. But, it would definitely help to spread the tortoises to more collections in states like mine where there aren’t many options.
 

Sterant

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In a lament about this situation, Russ Gurley ( the guy behind or maybe in front of TTPG) suggested that maybe people could just give a few away from time to time. Sounds crazy, like who would give away a radiated tortoise, right?

Kapidolo Farms has several, none have laid eggs yet, so pretty much an idea for the future...

I'll will offer free radiated tortoises if/when. You'd have to apply with your rejected CBW permit app, and after several have been collected, I figured myself and few others could review those apps and just give that person a young radiated tortoise. States with low populations would also be skewed to find a person to get one.

I still have to sort out how someone may twist the rest of the idea as wrong, but I'd want the recipient to donate some $$ to the conservation organization that is chelonian oriented. Money would move, in relation to the transfer of a tortoise, but it's not a quid pro quo so not a sale or exchange.

Any $hit-house lawyers or real attorneys care to comment?
I like this idea a lot Will. We could setup a small group of radiata breeders across the country, each one committing to donate 1 tortoise a year. People would apply with a denied CBW AND proof of the appropriate state permit if required. They could then make a donation to the organization of our choice, arrange for shipping and packaging, and we would send a tortoise of our choosing. This would also allow breeders to donate a tortoise that might not be of the highest value - like minimal color or split scutes, etc...

Interesting....
 

H2447INTX

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I like this idea a lot Will. We could setup a small group of radiata breeders across the country, each one committing to donate 1 tortoise a year. People would apply with a denied CBW AND proof of the appropriate state permit if required. They could then make a donation to the organization of our choice, arrange for shipping and packaging, and we would send a tortoise of our choosing. This would also allow breeders to donate a tortoise that might not be of the highest value - like minimal color or split scutes, etc...

Interesting....

So you are asking people to file for CBW every year or a past denial would work?
 

Kapidolo Farms

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So you are asking people to file for CBW every year or a past denial would work?

I'm not doing it yet, so the continuation of what I think I would do, is to ask for the most recent app, be it a few years old or current.

If someone moved from Florida (and indicated they would have a large outdoor space) to Minnesota, that could have a bearing if their app was many years old. I suppose the age of the rejected app would have some bearing.

Also by going with states that have the fewest CBW holders, I would step on fewer toes of breeders, I would hope.
 

Stoneman

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In a lament about this situation, Russ Gurley ( the guy behind or maybe in front of TTPG) suggested that maybe people could just give a few away from time to time. Sounds crazy, like who would give away a radiated tortoise, right?

Kapidolo Farms has several, none have laid eggs yet, so pretty much an idea for the future...

I'll will offer free radiated tortoises if/when. You'd have to apply with your rejected CBW permit app, and after several have been collected, I figured myself and few others could review those apps and just give that person a young radiated tortoise. States with low populations would also be skewed to find a person to get one.

I still have to sort out how someone may twist the rest of the idea as wrong, but I'd want the recipient to donate some $$ to the conservation organization that is chelonian oriented. Money would move, in relation to the transfer of a tortoise, but it's not a quid pro quo so not a sale or exchange.

Any $hit-house lawyers or real attorneys care to comment?

I have a little bit of experience in law and the tortoise industry so I might be able to provide better info than others on here. I went to business school, so I have a grip of hours studying the law. So I am more experienced than most, but less experienced than a $hit house lawyer. So, take it for what it's worth. I knew nothing of most of the regulations that have been brought up in this thread, prior to reading this thread, so I know nothing of the permitted practice of donating a radiata to someone in another state, or the practice of trading one for another in another state for the intent to diversify bloodlines, without the CBW permit. If those practices are legal, then yes providing a gifted tortoise to someone who donates to a conservation organization should be okay.

However, the are some concerns. It would be difficult to separate the quid pro quo transaction, especially in the fact that you would have to directly communicate that information. I have seen examples where there are quid pro quo tangible goods provided directly after x amount is donated, being written explicitly. However none of those things valuable goods required any special permits to transfer the item.

Another concern, the tortoises being transferred would likely have to be property of the cheonan conservation organization. Organized that way legally. So registered with state, local, and federal organizations as that type of entity. The incoming donation would likely have to used for business as usual for the operation. A direct payout to the primary owner could be considered suspicious. It would be best if the money was kept in the business or used for entity related purchases.

There is a legal term called piercing the veil, which is where a entity does not sue an LLC or the corporation, but instead sues a member of that organization, which is supposed to have immunity behind the Corp, acting only on behalf of the Corp. If you engage in these types of transactions on behalf of entity, it is much easier for the veil to he pierced if there is only one acting member of the Corp, so the primary share holder is also the director, etc. Because it is much easier to intertwine the lives, interactions, and intentions when there is not a collective group making the decisions. If you are going to engage in this, make sure that you at least make sure that you have everything processed correctly so that Kapidolo and yourself are distinct and separate entities. IE separate bank accounts, etc. Legal zoom should have all the right forms for you to fill out and you are looking at spending about $100. If you want to be squeaky clean, you could have a law firm do this. This is the route I was planning on going and the lowest price I got quoted to separate myself from the hatchery was about 5k. So it can get pricy.

If the law is written where the things previously stated make this type of transaction legitimate, you should be fine. However in case things turn sour, I recommend at a minimum getting the forms processed and kept current well in advance of anything that could go wrong.

-Stone
Weekend Pretend $hit house Lawyer
 

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