Moral/Ethical Business Dilemma

Tom

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I've learned over the years that I sometimes see things differently than "the majority". This being the case, I thought I'd ask for a consensus from the group.

I've sold many tortoise babies over the years and everything has gone very well with no problems. Well the inevitable has happened. A baby has died. I think most of the people reading know the care that goes into my babies, but try to look at this from an unbiased point of view.

Babies were hatched 6-9 months prior. 50 in total. All are now 80-100+ grams and thriving. I've got 14 left and the others have been sold and shipped all over the country into a variety of environments and enclosure types. As far as I know, all are doing well and there have been no problems.

The baby in question was shipped on January 3rd. I shipped it with a heat pack and a thermometer that records highs and lows. Temp in the insulated shipping box was between 84 and 64. No delays or problems with shipping. Customer said appetite was a little low on the day of arrival, but then it was fine after that. Customer reports daily soaks, and that temps are good in the enclosure. On June 8th, customer inquired about the tortoises birthdate, so they could celebrate annually, and all seemed good.

I inquired by text on how the baby was doing on Jan 19th and the answer was: "Looks good. It eats and poop well and is also active" No further contact until this morning.

At 8:11am this morning I get a text saying that the baby has died. Customer reports the temperatures and equipment used and I see no obvious problem. Soaking water was a little too hot (30-40C), but shouldn't be fatal. All else seems fine.

Customer is requesting a half refund. Customer thinks: "...our responsibility is half half."

No warranty was discussed at any time. Customer never asked about a guarantee and I never offered one. I don't sell anything but perfect healthy babies. I'm just a small private hobby breeder and as such, all of my babies get tremendous individual care and attention. I handle, inspect and care for them all daily. If ever there was a problem, I'd know every detail.

What say you all? Should I refund half the money? All of it? None of it? Please feel free to be blunt and honest with me.
 

TammyJ

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It does not seem to me at all that this was your fault. You did everything right and after that, something went wrong.
As for the refund, what I would do is go ahead and refund half the money but with a clear conscience and a note to that effect, that this was unexpected and very very rare to have happened and you take no blame whatsoever, you are sending the half refund as a gesture of goodwill. You are in no way responsible but you are sympathetic.
 

Blackdog1714

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I feel the owner should provide photos of the setup to show they followed your instructions. If they did than half a refund would be fair. As a new owner I did my enclosure adjustments and dialing in well prior to getting my baby from Carol S. I followed the care sheet almost to the letter and have seen my baby thrive. Sadly I see too many folks even on here that want an interactive tortoise(think puppy) and over stress them in the process
 

DanB

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If no guarantee was given at time of purchase then you are under no obligation to refund any money. If you do so you will be setting a precedent that you will refund without a guarantee. I'm not saying these people are scammers but if I gave any money back Id ask for the tortoise back.
 

jsheffield

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I think you'd be perfectly justified not refunding any of their money, but since it's inside a month, I'd do 50% towards a replacement.

Assuming they can provide a pic of the satisfactory enclosure and the dead tort.

Jmho, ymmv.

Jamie
 

SPILL

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Today is four weeks to the day that you sent that tortoise out. Even when there is an expressed guarantee it is rarely that long. I'm a buyer only, and this is just my opinion, but I don't think you are responsible or owe anything. If you do feel morally obligated, and you believe the proper care was being given by the new owner, a partial credit towards a replacement would be more than adequate.
 

Toddrickfl1

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I've learned over the years that I sometimes see things differently than "the majority". This being the case, I thought I'd ask for a consensus from the group.

I've sold many tortoise babies over the years and everything has gone very well with no problems. Well the inevitable has happened. A baby has died. I think most of the people reading know the care that goes into my babies, but try to look at this from an unbiased point of view.

Babies were hatched 6-9 months prior. 50 in total. All are now 80-100+ grams and thriving. I've got 14 left and the others have been sold and shipped all over the country into a variety of environments and enclosure types. As far as I know, all are doing well and there have been no problems.

The baby in question was shipped on January 3rd. I shipped it with a heat pack and a thermometer that records highs and lows. Temp in the insulated shipping box was between 84 and 64. No delays or problems with shipping. Customer said appetite was a little low on the day of arrival, but then it was fine after that. Customer reports daily soaks, and that temps are good in the enclosure. On June 8th, customer inquired about the tortoises birthdate, so they could celebrate annually, and all seemed good.

I inquired by text on how the baby was doing on Jan 19th and the answer was: "Looks good. It eats and poop well and is also active" No further contact until this morning.

At 8:11am this morning I get a text saying that the baby has died. Customer reports the temperatures and equipment used and I see no obvious problem. Soaking water was a little too hot (30-40C), but shouldn't be fatal. All else seems fine.

Customer is requesting a half refund. Customer thinks: "...our responsibility is half half."

No warranty was discussed at any time. Customer never asked about a guarantee and I never offered one. I don't sell anything but perfect healthy babies. I'm just a small private hobby breeder and as such, all of my babies get tremendous individual care and attention. I handle, inspect and care for them all daily. If ever there was a problem, I'd know every detail.

What say you all? Should I refund half the money? All of it? None of it? Please feel free to be blunt and honest with me.
I think if the baby has been with the customer over 3 weeks now and the customer reported that the baby was eating and pooping it's definitely not your fault, or any thing you did to cause it. That being said if you've been selling them years and this is the first occurrence of this if it were me I would refund half the money or offer a second tortoise at half the cost and just take the loss. Maybe in the future give a disclaimer upfront like 2 week guarantee maybe. Use this as a learning experience should something like this ever happen again. I would definitely ask for pictures of enclosure and tortoise first though to make sure customer didn't cause it. Just my two cents, that's all I got right now payday isn't for another week :D
 

Tim Carlisle

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I agree with the others here. From a legal and moral standpoint, you should not be held responsible. From a strictly business standpoint, you could certainly offer a discount on another tortoise or product just to keep in good faith with the customer. This might ensure repeat business as well as prevent any negative comments posted about you on the web. If such negative comments appear after the fact, then you can say that you honestly tried to appease the customer.
 

Redfool

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A “one time” 50% off another tort, if you want to risk another tort, not including shipping would be fair. Stress that your torts are not “money back guaranteed”, that this discount is just out of courtesy. Keeping a list of referrals should show an impeccable record. You are an extremely experienced hobbyist not a business. Once it’s shipped it’s out of your control. Let them know you only offer quality torts and the rarity of the situation. Good luck and thanks for showing a good conscience.
 
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Len B

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I may be the only one that thinks this way, I would send them a replacement tortoise and let them pay for the cost of shipping. The cause of death will never be known so that should not be a factor in how you handle this. You shouldn't accept any responsibility for what happened because that will never be known. Financially your loss will be minimal and when you do a good deed your rewards are usually greater than the expense you put out. I am speaking as a hobbyist not as a business owner. I've been buying, selling, trading,receiving free, and giving away reptiles for over 50 years and seen many unexplained deaths and different people handle the situation in different ways. Good Luck with your decision, what ever it is it wont be wrong.
 

Maro2Bear

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I think i agree with things stated by @Toddrickfl1 above, basically - refund half the money or offer a second tortoise at half the cost and just take the loss. Maybe in the future give a disclaimer upfront like 2 or 3 weeks.
  • You guaranteed and provided a well-started healthy tortoise. Once the new owner took possession you no longer can trust and verify the conditions.
Good luck.
 

motero

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How willing are they to prove their husbandry? I have run into similar situation. But it was a year later, friend of a friend. Sulcata died, they wanted to buy another one at a discount. They were completely unwilling to discuss the tortoises care with me, said over and over that they had read everything about them on the Internet. But would not tell me about their setup or routine. Just claimed they did everything right. I had to tell them they should get another one from someone else. Left it at that. Best of luck. Lots of good ideas from those who have already posted.
 

Levi the Leopard

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I would send them a replacement tortoise and let them pay for the cost of shipping.

The cause of death will never be known so that should not be a factor in how you handle this. You shouldn't accept any responsibility for what happened because that will never be known.

Financially your loss will be minimal and when you do a good deed your rewards are usually greater than the expense you put out.
Good Luck with your decision, what ever it is it wont be wrong.

You said exactly what I was going to say..
 

TammyJ

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How could their sending pictures prove anything anyway? Anyone can set up a beautiful habitat/enclosure, take pictures and send, and say that's it. Take pics of any sleeping tortoise and say it's dead. You don't know, but we know people are capable of this type of deceit, unfortunately.
I still say, do the "good will" and "nice" thing and pay back half the cost with a letter disclaiming any responsibility.
 

Markw84

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I don't ever recall seeing any live animal guarantees over 7 days. 4 weeks is extreme, especially since there was contact at 3 weeks and everything was reported fine. I would be tempted out of goodwill to simply refund or replace. However, the problem is setting a precedent that later could become an issue. More importantly, there was an admitted issue that I believe gives a very good probable cause:

I do not agree that a 40° soaking temperature can be assumed as not lethal. Many reports I recall show a critical thermal max of 40°-41° for many tortoise species. Especially a young tortoise under 100g soaking in 40° water would reach a core body temp of that 40° in a few minutes. If they're saying up to 40° could it have been 41°? At that temperature every degree would make a huge difference. I would freak out if I found I had put a tortoise in 40° water. With a quick death and everything reported fine a week ago, this seems a very likely cause.

Regardless, there is so much that can be done wrong with a young tortoise, all I feel we can do is guarantee a healthy animal upon arrival. I would even consider refund or replacement if they reported something wrong wiithin perhaps 2 weeks out of goodwill.
 

Kapidolo Farms

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@ALDABRAMAN created a thread on this topic, much to see on it. Some offer a 1 year warranty.

To answer your question @Tom , I'd offer a break on price if they buy from you again, confined to some time period (i.e. within the next month, year etc.) and offer nothing else. There are a bazillion factors that could have played a role in the death, none that trace back to anything more than an accidental consumption of a lightening bug, a flower with pesticide, a drop by someone (not the owner) etc. that happened a few days ago.

But there are no doubt more details in the situation that could weigh in on what you do. But for the narrative as you wrote it, that's what I would do.
 

ALDABRAMAN

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I've learned over the years that I sometimes see things differently than "the majority". This being the case, I thought I'd ask for a consensus from the group.

I've sold many tortoise babies over the years and everything has gone very well with no problems. Well the inevitable has happened. A baby has died. I think most of the people reading know the care that goes into my babies, but try to look at this from an unbiased point of view.

Babies were hatched 6-9 months prior. 50 in total. All are now 80-100+ grams and thriving. I've got 14 left and the others have been sold and shipped all over the country into a variety of environments and enclosure types. As far as I know, all are doing well and there have been no problems.

The baby in question was shipped on January 3rd. I shipped it with a heat pack and a thermometer that records highs and lows. Temp in the insulated shipping box was between 84 and 64. No delays or problems with shipping. Customer said appetite was a little low on the day of arrival, but then it was fine after that. Customer reports daily soaks, and that temps are good in the enclosure. On June 8th, customer inquired about the tortoises birthdate, so they could celebrate annually, and all seemed good.

I inquired by text on how the baby was doing on Jan 19th and the answer was: "Looks good. It eats and poop well and is also active" No further contact until this morning.

At 8:11am this morning I get a text saying that the baby has died. Customer reports the temperatures and equipment used and I see no obvious problem. Soaking water was a little too hot (30-40C), but shouldn't be fatal. All else seems fine.

Customer is requesting a half refund. Customer thinks: "...our responsibility is half half."

No warranty was discussed at any time. Customer never asked about a guarantee and I never offered one. I don't sell anything but perfect healthy babies. I'm just a small private hobby breeder and as such, all of my babies get tremendous individual care and attention. I handle, inspect and care for them all daily. If ever there was a problem, I'd know every detail.

What say you all? Should I refund half the money? All of it? None of it? Please feel free to be blunt and honest with me.

~ No, once the hatchlings leaves your custody, care and control in optimal health there is no further obligation on your part to refund anything. Fortunately, we have not had this ever happen, however it is always a concern. One thing i stress prior to delivery is that once the hatchlings leaves our program, we are not responsible for further health, growth or development. I always make sure the customer has my direct phone number for direct unconditional support.
 

ALDABRAMAN

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There are a bazillion factors that could have played a role in the death, none that trace back to anything more than an accidental consumption of a lightening bug, a flower with pesticide, a drop by someone (not the owner) etc. that happened a few days ago.

~ Yes, so many possibilities........
 

wellington

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Sorry it happened Tom. I think you should consider your reputation maybe more then anything. A million good tortoise sales won't drown out the one bad one if these people want too sing. You probably should demand the body back unless you know these people can be trusted. Then refund the half along with the understand you are doing this out of kindness not obligation or wrong doing.
 

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