Underweight rescue babies? Possible pyramiding.

susyc77 said:

Hi everyone!! I'm hoping for some help taking care of these beautiful babies. Long story short, I've always loved tortoises and have always wanted to adopt one. Well, a cousin of mine happened to have two that he "picked up at a flea market ". Why they were there, I'm not sure. He's notorious for not taking care of his pets and said he did not have time for these anymore. They were so sad in a little tiny tank (5 gallon I think), no water, wilted lettuce, no hiding place and coil heat lamp+ red night bulb. This was the sign that these were meant to come home with me.

I brought them home 2 days ago and am currently using a spare 20 gallon tank that I had on hand until I can build something bigger. I stopped by Petsmart and picked up the following supplies for now but I ordered some others from Amazon:

*Zoo med forest floor bedding (read it decreases the chance of impaction and distributes humidity)
* MVB 125watt bulb
*Terrarium moss for humid hide
* Half log to serve as a hide
*2 Thermometers/Hygrometers
*Zoo med natural tortoise food
*Calcium powder

On the way from Amazon:
* Ceramic heat bulb (to replace red bulb)
* Calcium block
*Terra cotta water tray

I covered the glass from the outside of the tank so they can't see through it. I'm mostly feeding them lettuce and yard grass.

My main concern is that these guys seem so small. The person he got these from said they hatched at the end of September making them a little over 5 months old. I took a picture side by side of Charlie (left) and Butters (right). Charlie's shell in smoother and not as high but Butters has a really round shell with what almost looks like pyramiding. Could that be possible at this age?

Charlie only weighs 45 grams as of today and Butters 55 grams.

I keep the following temps in their tank:

70-95% humidity overall
Cool side:79°f
Middle :82°f
Warm side:91°f
Basking temp: 98.5-100°f

I spray the substrate once a day and soak the babies for 15 minutes in warm water.

Do you think these guys are too underweight for going on 6 months?

If this is pyramiding, what can I do to help?

Thank you so so much in advance for the help and advice. I know these guys had a rough start but I want to do the best for them.
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Pure Tortoise Power said:

I'm glad to see someone like you who are so sympathetic towards animals.

Your humidity is great, but you may wanna up the cool side temp a bit as its not recommended for the enclosure too so below 80. I don't think moss is good for baby torts as they may cause impaction after they consume it. Try to feed less lettuce and more grass if you can. For all I know, lettuce has high-ish amount of oxalic acid. I'm not sure. Also, try to give them a more varied diet, so that it ensures they get adequate nutrients they require for growth.

I don't think their pyramidings are too severe, all you need to do is keep up with that nice humidity you are already offering them.

They... Don't look like they're 6 months old... They look like they are 1 month old only. The carapace on their shell gets wider the older they get.I'm not too sure about this part though so don't take my word.

One bad news for you, is that they cannot be kept in the same enclosure, as one of them will become the alpha and start bullying the weaker one. It will also try to force it out of its territory. And the other wouldn't be able to escape since its enclosed. That will cause stress on both of them. Also, they may also try to flip each other upside down, and if that happens, there could be casualties as a tort flipped upside down would have difficulty to breathe.

Also, an enclosure with size of 4x8 would be ideal for EACH of them

Here are some reference from a veteran :

https://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/for-those-who-have-a-young-sulcata.76744/

https://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/how-to-raise-a-healthy-sulcata-or-leopard-version-2-0.79895/

https://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/beginner-mistakes.45180/

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Yvonne G said:

I know you've spent lots of money on your supplies, and you'd like to get use out of them, however, a lot of what you have isn't what's needed by the tortoises. Please read the threads linked in the above post and make some changes.

Also, I don't know if those articles speak to it, but screen filters out quite a bit of the UVB rays your babies need, so a screen top isn't recommended.

I don't use anything larger than a 100 watt for young tortoises. My UVB light of choice is a tube type fluorescent, and for night time heat I use a 100 watt ceramic heat emitter, or a radiant heat panel.

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susyc77 said:

Thank you so much!! I removed the moss and installed the ceramic heat bulbs to raise the overall temp. I cut them some different grasses and approved sulcata weeds too, but mostly grasses lol. I'm looking to build a 6x6 enclosure for them so far, I'm planning as we speak.

I also thought they were really tiny for being 5 months and really doubted it. 1 month would make much more sense.

Also I read on this forum that having 2 together is bad but that 3 is ok as the bullying and territory issues are much more manageable. Do you think this would be ok?

Thank you again!

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susyc77 said:

Thank you so much!! I removed the moss and installed the ceramic heat bulbs to raise the overall temp. I cut them some different grasses and approved sulcata weeds too, but mostly grasses lol. I'm looking to build a 6x6 enclosure for them so far, I'm planning as we speak.

I also thought they were really tiny for being 5 months and really doubted it. 1 month would make much more sense.

Also I read on this forum that having 2 together is bad but that 3 is ok as the bullying and territory issues are much more manageable. Do you think this would be ok?

Thank you again!

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Pure Tortoise Power said:

I doubt 3 of them together would be more manageable. In my opinion, out of the 3,there will still be an alpha one, which would still be pretty much the same case as I mentioned, not able to force out /escape territory, meaning they will still be stressed

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susyc77 said:

Yeah that totally makes sense. So my sister decided to take one of the two babies so they can be separated and still be in loving homes. She has a bearded dragon and loves reptiles too. I bought a 50 gallon tub to use as an enclosure for now,is this ok to use??

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1. Separate them.
2. Get a large closed chamber for housing. Open topped tubs make it difficult to create and maintain the correct conditions.
3. Get rid of the moss.
4. Add a humid hide.
5. Not take advice or buy products form the pet store. They have no clue.
6. Get rid of the MVB. It will make the pyramiding worse. Read the thread for what to do instead, and feel free to ask questions.
7. Get digital thermometer/hygrometers from the hardware store.
8. Use another terra cotta saucer sunk into the substrate for the food.
9. You don't need to cover the glass, but it won't hurt anything if you want to leave it.
10. Get a thermostat to control the CHE. This will maintain your ambient temp where you want it day and night. https://www.lllreptile.com/products/13883-zilla-1000-watt-temperature-controller
11. Soak them for 45 minutes a day, and keep the water warm all the way through.
12. Read those threads. What you need to know is in them.
13. Vary the diet more.
14. Ask lots of questions. The best way to sort through conflicting info is to ask questions and have things that don't add up explained in more detail.

Tom said:

Hello and welcome.

The benefit of asking a group on a public forum is that you'll get lots of opinions, and sometimes a consensus. The problem with asking a group on a public forum is that you'll get lots of opinions and sometimes a consensus.

I don't want to overwhelm you with too much conflicting info, but I do want to answer some of your questions.

Pairs are a problem. Groups of three or more juveniles are usually not a problem, but to add one, you'd have to quarantine it for months, and it is likely to not grow at the same rate due to different starts.

Most breeders don't start these correctly and few of them receive the correct care in their new homes due to old, out-dated, incorrect care advice that has been passed down from keeper to keeper for 30+ years. Yours are very likely the age they are reported to be, but the lack of growth and pyramiding that has already started tells the tale. They don't grow much when they are kept incorrectly.

In your situation, I would:

1. Separate them.
2. Get a large closed chamber for housing. Open topped tubs make it difficult to create and maintain the correct conditions.
3. Get rid of the moss.
4. Add a humid hide.
5. Not take advice or buy products form the pet store. They have no clue.
6. Get rid of the MVB. It will make the pyramiding worse. Read the thread for what to do instead, and feel free to ask questions.
7. Get digital thermometer/hygrometers from the hardware store.
8. Use another terra cotta saucer sunk into the substrate for the food.
9. You don't need to cover the glass, but it won't hurt anything if you want to leave it.
10. Get a thermostat to control the CHE. This will maintain your ambient temp where you want it day and night. https://www.lllreptile.com/products/13883-zilla-1000-watt-temperature-controller
11. Soak them for 45 minutes a day, and keep the water warm all the way through.
12. Read those threads. What you need to know is in them.
13. Vary the diet more.
14. Ask lots of questions. The best way to sort through conflicting info is to ask questions and have things that don't add up explained in more detail.

Good luck!

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susyc77 said:

Thank you so much for the info! My sister has taken one of the little guys in so that we can give them each individual attention. I bought a 2'x4' tub and cut out holes in the lid for lighting and heat. The humidity is staying over 60% right now. So far got rid of the moss and added a humid hide. I also ordered the 65 watt incandescent bulbs to use with the che, plus have a strip uvb lighting. I also added the digital thermometer/hygrometers and new terra cotta saucer for food. I upped the soaking time and just need to order the thermostat for the che. I also downloaded the Tortoise Table app which is supposed to help identify safe grasses and weeds for my little one.

Does this sound about right now? I want little Charlie to be happy and i'm passing all this info to my sister who is pretty much following my lead to make sure Butters is happy too.

Thank you so so much for your help!

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Tom said:

Sounds much better. Humidity should be closer to 80%, but that will be difficult with an open topped tub with the lights outside.

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susyc77 said:

Yay, thank you! Little Charlie looks happier too! He gained 6 grams already!

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Big Charlie said:

That's great news! I have a giant Charlie. He's almost 20 years old. Hopefully, someday your little Charlie will be big like mine.

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