Penelope is pyramiding and I don't know why!

Nursemomzie · Apr 3, 2019

Tom said:
Something is causing the carapace to be too dry. Here are some possibilities:

Too much time outside.

Lights on the outside of a closed chamber.

Basking temp is hotter than you think it is.

Wrong type of basking bulbs.

Any or all of these could be contributing factors.

Thank you!

Tom · Apr 3, 2019

William Lee Kohler said:
Not the wild ones I've seen pictures of. They're nice and smooth. Havn't seen a single captive one on this site that was halfway normal looking.

Many wild ones walking around out there do show some pyramiding.

There are hundreds of pictures on this site of smooth leopard tortoises. You haven't been looking.

jso · Apr 3, 2019

I'm curious. Why would lights on the outside of a closed chamber be a possible contributary factor? (And where else could/should the lights go if not on the outside?)

Yvonne G · Apr 3, 2019

jso said:
I'm curious. Why would lights on the outside of a closed chamber be a possible contributary factor? (And where else could/should the lights go if not on the outside?)

I think Tom explains it thusly: The hole you cut for the light to shine through acts as a chimney for the hot air to rush up and out. Your closed chamber needs to be tall enough that you can put the lights inside. Here's what mine looks like:

The light is hanging from a closet rod and the radiant heat panel is the roof of the cave.

Markw84 · Apr 3, 2019

jso said:
I'm curious. Why would lights on the outside of a closed chamber be a possible contributary factor? (And where else could/should the lights go if not on the outside?)

Incandescent bulbs put out a great deal of heat. All bulbs put out some heat. If you look at the domes used, there are holes at the top of the dome next to the base of the bulb. This is for cooling the bulb. A bulb will burn out quickly if it gets too hot. In a dome, it will get too hot if there is no way for the hot air around the bulb to get out. This hot air creates a convection current - the drafting the same as a fireplace chimney. So these holes are there to create this current of air and keep the bulb from overheating. So even if you seal around the dome carefully, the design of the dome will create this drafting. The warmest air - around the bulb - will rise and draw cooler air from your chamber up to replace it. It becomes and extremely effecting drafting that constantly draws the warm, humid air out of the enclosure. If you plug the holes, you will burn out bulb and create a situation where it gets much hotter than designed - which is not safe.

The only solution, is to put the whole fixture inside the enclosure. There will still be drafting to cool the bulb, but it will be recirculating air back into the enclosure and keeping it within the enclosure.

puffinboots · Apr 4, 2019

Nursemomzie said:
My Leopard tortoise is 11 months old and weighs 321 gm. She looks like she's pyramiding to me! I don't understand why. Her enclosure is closed chamber and the humidity is always between 80 and 90%. When she goes into her hide at night, it is closed chamber as well with humidity 95-100% every night. Temps are warm enough at 95-98 and at night are about 83. UVB is good. I have 2 10.0 UVB lamps at 8" high. I have 4 digital temp/hygrometers and 5 digital thermometers. I soak her every single night for 30-45 minutes. It's been cool here so I haven't been able to put her outside yet this year. She eats a variety of clover, radish leaves, dandelions, collard greens, and mazuri. She drinks well and has a hearty appetite. I tried to do everything right! I don't know what else to do. Please help! View attachment 268766 View attachment 268767

puffinboots · Apr 4, 2019

Nursemomzie said:
Here are my pictures ya'll requested. By the way, I really appreciate all of y'all for trying to help!View attachment 268857 View attachment 268858 View attachment 268859 View attachment 268860 View attachment 268861 View attachment 268862

Hard to do

puffinboots · Apr 4, 2019

You are doing everything right , to stop the pyramiding, only one thing to do which can be hard. Just cut down on the feeding. No matter what other people say , that’s the only way to stop it. I have 28 tortoises , of various ages all related & had them for 20 years . The ones reared with benign neglect are smooth, the younger spoiled ones are showing signs of slight pyramiding. Must harden my heart , difficult, because they will graze all day given half a chance. Good Luck.

PA2019 · Apr 4, 2019

puffinboots said:
You are doing everything right , to stop the pyramiding, only one thing to do which can be hard. Just cut down on the feeding. No matter what other people say , that’s the only way to stop it. I have 28 tortoises , of various ages all related & had them for 20 years . The ones reared with benign neglect are smooth, the younger spoiled ones are showing signs of slight pyramiding. Must harden my heart , difficult, because they will graze all day given half a chance. Good Luck.

Sigh...

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink...

puffinboots · Apr 5, 2019

PA2019 said:
Sigh...

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink...

Hahaha I can only speak as I find. Sorry can’t follow the pack

TammyJ · Apr 5, 2019

Maybe he needs to be able to burrow deep down into warm but damp substrate and stay there, like they do in the wild. How deep is the substrate? And what is it?

Cheryl Hills · Apr 5, 2019

Feeding has nothing to do with pyramiding! Pyramiding is caused by being to dry in some way or another, maybe even genetics but not feeding. Tortoises graze all day in the wild.

ascott · Apr 5, 2019

Diet is just as important for the overall growth/well being of the tortoise as all other pieces of the pie. Any living creature requires balance, food being one of those elements. I also do not care what others say....the statement that diet plays no part in pyramiding is false. Also, if you have a species of tortoise that is designed to brumate, then they should be encouraged and supported in eating when and how ever much they desire...if you have a species of tortoise that does not brumate then there is absolutely no physical reason to allow gorging at will....slow and steady (not starved)....is healthier. You will need to work with your specific tortoise to see what the appropriate amount is.

Oh, just a side note. I was freaking out while reading the new "popular" instructions to completely enclose light fixtures within a wet enclosure space....if the fixtures are not designed to be in a wet environment--you are asking for problems. That is an electrical fire or sever shock hazard in the making. Please use fixtures as they are designed and not modify as being described here....spend the extra money, go to a grow shop and or aquaponics shop and spend the money to obtain the correct fixtures for what is being suggested here. In a former life I was a licensed Fire and Casualty Agent....I have seen lots...so just a safety suggestion....and yeah I know, there will be folks that tell you "all hell, I have done it for years and never had a problem" good for them.

Tom · Apr 5, 2019

puffinboots said:
Hahaha I can only speak as I find. Sorry can’t follow the pack

And what do you say to the pack members that also tried the starvation method of slow growth to reduce pyramiding and failed, but now grow smooth tortoises all day long due to humidity and hydration? What do you say to the people who feed the wrong foods in huge quantities, but still produce a smooth tortoise due to their humid rainy warm climate?

It doesn't matter how much or how little you feed them, or what you feed them as far as pyramiding is concerned. If its too dry, they will pyramid as they grow. Less food just means they grow and pyramid slower.

Tom · Apr 5, 2019

ascott said:
Diet is just as important for the overall growth/well being of the tortoise as all other pieces of the pie. Any living creature requires balance, food being one of those elements. I also do not care what others say....the statement that diet plays no part in pyramiding is false. Also, if you have a species of tortoise that is designed to brumate, then they should be encouraged and supported in eating when and how ever much they desire...if you have a species of tortoise that does not brumate then there is absolutely no physical reason to allow gorging at will....slow and steady (not starved)....is healthier. You will need to work with your specific tortoise to see what the appropriate amount is.

Oh, just a side note. I was freaking out while reading the new "popular" instructions to completely enclose light fixtures within a wet enclosure space....if the fixtures are not designed to be in a wet environment--you are asking for problems. That is an electrical fire or sever shock hazard in the making. Please use fixtures as they are designed and not modify as being described here....spend the extra money, go to a grow shop and or aquaponics shop and spend the money to obtain the correct fixtures for what is being suggested here. In a former life I was a licensed Fire and Casualty Agent....I have seen lots...so just a safety suggestion....and yeah I know, there will be folks that tell you "all hell, I have done it for years and never had a problem" good for them.

These are strong assertions and contrary to the experiments that people like me and Mark have been undertaking for decades. Please explain to the group how you reached these conclusions. How many groups of leopard and sulcata babies did you raise side by side in varying conditions to reach these conclusions.

And closed chambers are not "wet environments". Its quite dry in mine. Its just more humid inside them. No different than someone using this same equipment anywhere in the South Eastern US. How many closed chambers have you tried to reach your conclusions about them?

Reptilony · Apr 6, 2019

puffinboots said:
Hahaha I can only speak as I find. Sorry can’t follow the pack

Please don't forget every person in this *pack has it's own brain and can judge from themselves. I see spoiled, All you can eat, even tons of mazuri feast tortoises on this forum from people all round the world, all the time on tfo, with no pyramiding, smooth as can be, im always open for ideas that can improve tortoises health but first I do not want to starve my tortoises, second, I see no evidences that the starving method is working and I, have seen countless ones from the humid method. It's not a bad thing to immitate what's been proven to work.

puffinboots · Apr 6, 2019

Tom said:
And what do you say to the pack members that also tried the starvation method of slow growth to reduce pyramiding and failed, but now grow smooth tortoises all day long due to humidity and hydration? What do you say to the people who feed the wrong foods in huge quantities, but still produce a smooth tortoise due to their humid rainy warm climate?

It doesn't matter how much or how little you feed them, or what you feed them as far as pyramiding is concerned. If its too dry, they will pyramid as they grow. Less food just means they grow and pyramid slower.

puffinboots · Apr 6, 2019

Not starvation , just give less food. Mine come out as soon as the sun gets warmer in the morning & they see me coming. In the wild desert tortoises don’t have much to eat or drink but they thrive.

puffinboots · Apr 6, 2019

PA2019 said:
Sigh...

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink...

puffinboots · Apr 6, 2019

puffinboots said:

Penelope is pyramiding and I don't know why!

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