Penelope is pyramiding and I don't know why!

puffinboots

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I am lucky in the climate we have here which is what desert tortoises need to thrive. Plenty of heat & sunlight. They originated from either Jordan or Syria as babies , then have been successfully breeding ever since. 28 all told. Started with 4 babies . 2 in 1992 & another 2 the year after. No pyramiding at all in the older ones, only slight bumps in the 4 years olds with red markings on their backs, they are even bigger than older ones. ( my fault for spoiling them) . Dunno about other species but for these chaps, this is the only thing that could possibly affect their pyramiding, & growth spurts. . Sorry !
 

Ciri

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She would only be outside about 30 minutes 2 or 3 times a week. Do you think she wasn't out there enough? She's been indoors all winter and it's still pretty cool outside here. I'll get some pics up this evening.
It's always difficult to create an indoor environment that's as good as what they can get outdoors. The lights we can use still don't provide all of the benefits that sunlight and fresh air naturally provide. I would suggest lots of time outdoors when it's warm enough, and plenty of opportunities to graze on plants which are as close as possible to their native foods. Areas with well-watered plants will provide good humidity. See this care sheet from the San Diego turtle and tortoise Society to get a list of foods. Best wishes with the little one!

https://www.sdturtle.org/care-sheets
 

Tom

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Not starvation , just give less food. Mine come out as soon as the sun gets warmer in the morning & they see me coming. In the wild desert tortoises don’t have much to eat or drink but they thrive.
This isn't a conversation about desert tortoises. This is a conversation about leopard tortoises who most certainly do have a wide variety of foods to choose from every day. They graze as much as they want.
 

Tom

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It's always difficult to create an indoor environment that's as good as what they can get outdoors. The lights we can use still don't provide all of the benefits that sunlight and fresh air naturally provide. I would suggest lots of time outdoors when it's warm enough, and plenty of opportunities to graze on plants which are as close as possible to their native foods. Areas with well-watered plants will provide good humidity. See this care sheet from the San Diego turtle and tortoise Society to get a list of foods. Best wishes with the little one!

https://www.sdturtle.org/care-sheets
These care sheets are the usual mix of some good tid bits of info mixed with old, outdated, incorrect info that will literally kill or maim a tortoise. Why do you persist in sharing this dangerous information here on a site dedicated to refuting this sort of bad info?
 

Sue Ann

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Maybe he needs to be able to burrow deep down into warm but damp substrate and stay there, like they do in the wild. How deep is the substrate? And what is it?
I recently changed my Sulcatas substrate to fine orchid bark about 3 in deep. Also added new zealand spaghnam moss to add more moisture. That little guy just made a huge burrow under his log and seems really very happy.
 

Ray--Opo

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Great learning thread for me. @Tom I have my money on you to figure out pyramiding.
Thanks all for your input.
 

Tom

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I recently changed my Sulcatas substrate to fine orchid bark about 3 in deep. Also added new zealand spaghnam moss to add more moisture. That little guy just made a huge burrow under his log and seems really very happy.
The New Zealand sphagnum moss can cause shell rot. I've recently seen a case of some young SA leopard tortoises that demonstrated this. Prior to this, I'd never seen a leopard tortoise with shell rot under any circumstances. It should not be used for tortoise substrate.
 

Pure Tortoise Power

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The New Zealand sphagnum moss can cause shell rot. I've recently seen a case of some young SA leopard tortoises that demonstrated this. Prior to this, I'd never seen a leopard tortoise with shell rot under any circumstances. It should not be used for tortoise substrate.
Interesting. What would be the reason behind this?
 

Cindyberm

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Please don't forget every person in this *pack has it's own brain and can judge from themselves. I see spoiled, All you can eat, even tons of mazuri feast tortoises on this forum from people all round the world, all the time on tfo, with no pyramiding, smooth as can be, im always open for ideas that can improve tortoises health but first I do not want to starve my tortoises, second, I see no evidences that the starving method is working and I, have seen countless ones from the humid method. It's not a bad thing to immitate what's been proven to work.
My 3.5-yr-old Sulcata, Zippy, has had notable pyramiding since he was a wee bairn. I got him when we lived in CA, thinking we would live there forever but after a year we ended up moving to southwest WA state. At first I thought I should leave him there but eventually decided my commitment to him would overcome all obstacles. We’ve been here for a year and a half now, Zippy is 20 lbs, almost 14” long, eats like there’s no tomorrow. Last fall I realized (from this forum) that humidity was what he needed and started running a humidifier in his big house (former tool shed) and this Spring his pyramiding is half what it was 6 months ago! I know it just means his shell is growing up around the bumps but to me it proves how important atmospheric hydration is to his species. The weather is warming here and he’s been coming out for a couple hours a day and is starting to mow down the lush lawn I’ve carefully prepared for him (by not mowing) which is good training for his ultimate career as Lawn Mower. Just wanted to offer my experience to this forum on this topic. Zippy is benefitting.
Please don't forget every person in this *pack has it's own brain and can judge from themselves. I see spoiled, All you can eat, even tons of mazuri feast tortoises on this forum from people all round the world, all the time on tfo, with no pyramiding, smooth as can be, im always open for ideas that can improve tortoises health but first I do not want to starve my tortoises, second, I see no evidences that the starving method is working and I, have seen countless ones from the humid method. It's not a bad thing to immitate what's been proven to work.
 

Donna Albu

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Not starvation , just give less food. Mine come out as soon as the sun gets warmer in the morning & they see me coming. In the wild desert tortoises don’t have much to eat or drink but they thrive.
Here, in the Phoenix metropolitan area, there is plenty to eat, and as a by product, to drink. Even during drought (currently not in effect), there is a good amount of moisture in the cacti and succulents. The plants that dry up after the spring blossoming are still edible. The desert in the southwest do not look like the Sahara. My torts love to hang out in the rain as long as it is warm enough. And they love those mud puddles!
 

JBurer

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What type of basking lamp are you using? What is the temperature directly under it? Lay a small pice of 2x4 under it and then place a digital thermometer on top of the wood directly under the lamp and let it cook for an hour. This will tell you the basking temp at tortoise height.

I've often let my temperatures range in the basking spot, as the tortoises are kept outside and in winter daytime temps can fluctuate significantly here.
They likely see anywhere from 100 to 120 directly under the bulb... and take turns sitting under the light.

Assuming they can bask, heat up, and move - does that maximum temperature really matter?
Best,
John
 

Tom

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I've often let my temperatures range in the basking spot, as the tortoises are kept outside and in winter daytime temps can fluctuate significantly here.
They likely see anywhere from 100 to 120 directly under the bulb... and take turns sitting under the light.

Assuming they can bask, heat up, and move - does that maximum temperature really matter?
Best,
John
It matters tremendously. The hotter the basking bulb, the more IR-A, and the more desiccation of the carapace you get, which leads to more and more severe pyramiding. I use the minimum wattage bulbs possible, and just enough to get the job of making a basking area done. I try to set my basking areas at no hotter than 95 at tortoise shell height. You don't need any more than that, and it keeps the effects of desiccation to a minimum.
 

puffinboots

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This isn't a conversation about desert tortoises. This is a conversation about leopard tortoises who most certainly do have a wide variety of foods to choose from every day. They graze as much as they want.
Terribly sorry . Thought it was generally about pyramiding.‍♀️
 

puffinboots

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I'm seeing 20+ tortoises and 12 scraps of nutritionally-neutral (at best) romaine lettuce.

Keep on galloping you rebel......
Yes well I snapped after they had scoffed the lot. They get carrots , cabbage , & various species of weeds & tree leaves if I have them. Rinds of water melons too ( never had problems with beaks). Loads of cuttle fish , straight from the sea shore , still a bit salty I suspect, (never licked them)
Fruit flies have been proved to live twice as long when their diets are restricted. Same for humans too. So why not for tortoises?
 

Tom

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Yes well I snapped after they had scoffed the lot. They get carrots , cabbage , & various species of weeds & tree leaves if I have them. Rinds of water melons too ( never had problems with beaks). Loads of cuttle fish , straight from the sea shore , still a bit salty I suspect, (never licked them)
Fruit flies have been proved to live twice as long when their diets are restricted. Same for humans too. So why not for tortoises?
Because fruit flies and humans don't eat high fiber, low nutrition diets, and because insects and mammals are not herbivorous reptiles.

Carrots, cabbage and watermelon rinds? You are not doing your tortoises any favors there.

A lot of us went a long and did things the way we did them fo years. A lot of thought to ourselves that since its all working "fine", why change anything? Learning more and improving has always been a goal of mine. I can't make anyone else take that on as their goal, but I hope to encourage it. Here is a starter list of things you could be feeding your tortoises that would be much better for them than what you are currently offering. I hope you'll consider some of these:
Mulberry leaves
Grape vine leaves
Hibiscus leaves
African hibiscus leaves
Blue hibiscus leaves
Rose of Sharon leaves
Rose leaves
Geraniums
Gazanias
Lavatera
Pansies
Petunias
Hostas
Honeysuckle
Cape honeysuckle
Leaves and blooms from any squash plant, like pumpkin, cucumber, summer squash, etc...
Young spineless opuntia cactus pads

Weeds:
There are soooooooo many...
Dandelion
Mallow
Filaree
Smooth Sow thistle
Prickly Sow thistle
Milk thistle
Goat head weed
Cats ear
Nettles
Trefoil
Wild onion
Wild mustard
Wild Garlic
Clovers
Broadleaf plantain
Narrow leaf plantain
Chick weed
Hawksbit
Hensbit
Hawksbeard

Other good stuff:
"Testudo Seed Mix" from http://www.tortoisesupply.com/SeedMixes
Pasture mixes or other seeds from http://www.groworganic.com/seeds.html
Homegrown alfalfa
Mazuri Tortoise Chow
ZooMed Grassland Tortoise Food
 

Nursemomzie

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You are doing everything right , to stop the pyramiding, only one thing to do which can be hard. Just cut down on the feeding. No matter what other people say , that’s the only way to stop it. I have 28 tortoises , of various ages all related & had them for 20 years . The ones reared with benign neglect are smooth, the younger spoiled ones are showing signs of slight pyramiding. Must harden my heart , difficult, because they will graze all day given half a chance. Good Luck.
I am just at a loss because all of my digital hygrometers say humidity is 83-90% at as all times. She's also soaked daily for 30-45 minutes.The only thing I could think of was the fast rate in which she's growing. She's 11 months old and 338 gm. She's a big girl (or boy!) for her age I think.
 

speckles&spud

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Hi all,
While I own a Speke's Hingeback, I think everyone here would find the paper I'm about to reference interesting/relevant. My reptile vet gave it to me a few months back when we were discussing temps in my Speke's enclosure. I made a comment about my temps and she recommended reading this paper as it refutes some of the common knowledge. This study used Leopard and Sulcatas. This may give the OP some insight into adjustments they may need to make for their juvie.
Be sure to read the entire paper (it's short) and not just the abstract.

https://www.academia.edu/32659497/E...N_GROWTH_RATE_AND_CARAPACIAL_SCUTE_PYRAMIDING
 

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