Jacques' mystery ailment

Moozillion

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This is a condensed version (believe it or not!!! :p) of Jacques' most recent health problems.
Jacques, as many of you may know, is my 4 yr old, female eastern mud turtle. Prior to Dec 8 of 2017, Jacques was an active, curious very healthy turtle who was responsive to people approaching her and quick to beg!!!
On Dec 8, 2017, I found her under her basking platform, appearing to have gotten trapped in the plant roots and drowned. She was revived, but was very weak and began a lengthy medical journey, multiple hospitalizations at the exotic vet for aspiration pneumonia from the drowning, etc.
I will spare you all the details of her problems and treatments, except where it appears to be relevant to the current issue.
She was much less acitive, hiding a lot, and had not been eating very well for several months, but was eating a bite or 2 about twice a week.
On 2/16/2019 I found her in a clear area of her tank, in 5 inches of water, on her back with legs and head extended, appearing to be dead. But as soon as I picked her up, she immediately looked at me and moved easily. Her body was odd puffy: as if she was suddenly 2 sizes too big for her shell and her flesh was protruding wherever it could.
A frantic trip to the exotic vet revealed nothing other than her body was swollen. I had to leave her with them for a couple of days for her puffiness to go down so they could draw some blood. Her blood count was entirely normal (so no return of infection) and the swelling went down. They had no idea what happened with her, but said if it happened again for me to take her to the veterinary school to be seen by the reptile specialists there, and gave me the number to the vet school.
Although I never found her on her back again, the puffiness would come and go, never entirely going away. She remained less active and less responsive, and ate less and less. So I took her to LSU (Louisiana State University) Veterinary School on 3/19 to the reptile specialists. We spent 5 hours there, and she was seen by 2 of the reptile specialist docs, and a vet student. They drew blood and did an ultrasound of her front half (they tried to do an ultrasound of the organs in her back half, but she's too small for their ultrasound probe to fit in the gap by her back legs).

Discussion: None of them have ever seen anything like this before. They have been able to rule out a lot of possibilities.
It's NOT a bacterial infection: blood counts remain entirely normal, she does not appear to have any obvious infections. And over the past 1 and 1/2 years since the drowning, she has had 4 one-week long treatments with antibiotics at my exotics vet, anyway.
It's NOT a parasite infection: she's got no indication of it and my exotics vet treated her for parasites in the past several months "just in case."
It's NOT kidney failure: their blood tests showed entirely normal kidney function.
It's NOT liver failure: their blood tests showed entirely normal liver function.
It's NOT any vitamin deficiency.
Because of the significant personality change after the drowning, they feel confident that she has some degree of brain damage, but there's no reason to think that's causing the current problem.

The ultrasound DID show a "possible mass" up high between her lungs and her carapace. It could be a tumor, it could be thyroid (???) or it could just be scarred lung tissue from her pneumonia that has sort of stuck together and has nothing whatsoever to do with her current problems.

They offered me 3 approaches: Aggressive, Moderate and Conservative.
Aggressive Treatment: A CT scan of her body. It would be able to give more detail as to whether there are any masses developing in her body or not. It would NOT be able to tell us what those masses ARE: only surgery (ie drilling through her shell, etc) would tell us that. Even if there is a mass, it may be unrelated to her problem. The CT scan alone is $600, and that does not include the docs assessment of it.

Moderate Treatment: Give her "empiric treatment" for a fungal infection. "Empiric treatment" means "an educated guess in the absence of complete information." They see no signs of her having a fungal infection- it's just the only thing she hasn't been treated for. The fungal treatment can be one of 2 ways: oral meds or injected into a muscle. EVERY DAY FOR 30 DAYS. Trying to force oral meds on an animal that won't eat and actively resists. Or injections into a small, wiggly animal who is abnormally puffy so that it's hard to even TELL if you're into muscle tissue or just puffy fleshy tissue. AND all this with absolutely ZERO guarantee that this is even the problem at hand.

Conservative Treatment: Take her back home, offer food every couple of days but don't make a big deal of it. Weigh her weekly and bring her back if she loses 18-20 grams in 1 week or 35-40 grams in 2 weeks.

I am going with the Conservative Treatment. The last time she ate anything at all (a single bite of salmon) was 3/16; she has continued to refuse food as recently as yesterday. Her weight at the Vet School was 187.4 gm, and her weight today was 182 gm. So that's only a 5 gm loss in almost 2 whole MONTHS.

About 2 months ago I moved her into her new penthouse suite: 40 gallon breeder tank with her old cave and all the old plastic plants that she is used to. She has 2 basking platform options: a big piece of floating cork and a ramp that she's seen and used before. She does NOT appear to be in pain because she doesn't hide at all (the docs at the Vet School agreed with that assumption). She almost never moves at all: she floats, and is content to drift where the current in her tank takes her. She will occasionally push off from something and turn herself around, and seems to prefer being up front where she watches our comings and goings. Through all this, she is very bright and alert! She is quick to make eye contact and is clearly looking around. But doesn't want to move at all. Even this morning when i weighed her, she let me pick her up, weigh her and put her back in the water. She looked at me the whole time, but never budged. Back when she was healthier, I would have to corner her to pick her up, she would try to climb out of the bowl of her scale and always dived off to hide after I put her back in her tank.

So there you have it. Jacques' Mystery Ailment that has the Veterinary School reptile specialists stumped.

But at least one good thing came out of all this. Her tank is in our dining room, and I just knew it was going to be too depressing to sit there everyday, trying to not notice and wonder what's going on with her. So that's what pushed me to get another turtle, and I got NELSON, my adorable baby razor backed musk turtle who is an absolute delight! Both tanks are in my dining room: Nelson's is to my right as i type this, and Jacques' is to my left. I see and talk to Jacques daily and I also get to see Nelson, too.
Life is a funny old thing.
So here we are.
Jacques sends her love to all.
:):<3:

P.S. Since Jacques is "Miss September" in our 2019 TFO calendar, I bought 2 more calendars and sent them to the docs at the Vet School who worked with her. After all, how often do they get to treat an INTERNATIONAL Calendar Girl??!?!? ;) One of the docs was so happy that she phoned me to thank me in person. :D:<3:
 

LaLaP

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Wow that's quite an ordeal that you and Jacques have been through. For what it's worth, I would have chosen the same conservative approach and hope that she starts eating more.
So glad you have Nelson to lighten your spirits.
I'll be pulling for you guys. Keep us posted.
 

Moozillion

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Here are photos of Jacques in her Penthouse Suite!
She is the only occupant, though I'm considering adding a single Betta fish...
But at least she's no longer pestered by the Ghost Shrimp!!! :p

IMG_2821.JPG

IMG_2822.JPG
Wow that's quite an ordeal that you and Jacques have been through. For what it's worth, I would have chosen the same conservative approach and hope that she starts eating more.
So glad you have Nelson to lighten your spirits.
I'll be pulling for you guys. Keep us posted.
Thank you, LaLaP! :):<3:
 

Yvonne G

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Well, my gosh, Bea. You certainly have gone above and beyond with little Jacques. When she was first found upside down and all swollen, I would have just thought she had absorbed too much water during that ordeal. The brain damage idea might have merit. Oh, if only they could communicate!
 

Moozillion

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Well, my gosh, Bea. You certainly have gone above and beyond with little Jacques. When she was first found upside down and all swollen, I would have just thought she had absorbed too much water during that ordeal. The brain damage idea might have merit. Oh, if only they could communicate!
Actually, Yvonne, I wondered if your idea might not be closest to the actual situation. Because of my work in the medical field, I know that humans with brain damage can stay the same, slowly get better or slowly get worse.
If Jacques had significant brain damage from the original drowning in 2017, and was slowly getting worse, she might be moving less and less because of that. And if she doesn't move at all, then her body swells up as a normal reaction. Even when she's really puffy, the more you provoke her- like 2 different vets handling her and examining her- the more active she gets and the more the swelling GOES DOWN! They had to sedate her slightly to draw her blood at the vet school and she BIT the veterinary resident! The Resident just laughed and said, "Good girl!"
One of my sisters is an MD, and she said that humans with swelling of their body usually have either kidney problems or heart problems. We know Jacques' kidneys are fine, but i don't think there's any way to check her heart. :confused: And I'm not even sure I would want to pursue that avenue anyway.
 
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Moozillion

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Oh, poor Jacques.

I am glad she still has enough fight to bite the vet... She’s probably fed up of blood being drawn and I don’t blame her.

Thanks, JoesMum!:):<3:
Yes, and it cracked me up that the vet who got bitten was GLAD to see Jacques was still spunky!!! :D
 

CarolM

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This is a condensed version (believe it or not!!! :p) of Jacques' most recent health problems.
Jacques, as many of you may know, is my 4 yr old, female eastern mud turtle. Prior to Dec 8 of 2017, Jacques was an active, curious very healthy turtle who was responsive to people approaching her and quick to beg!!!
On Dec 8, 2017, I found her under her basking platform, appearing to have gotten trapped in the plant roots and drowned. She was revived, but was very weak and began a lengthy medical journey, multiple hospitalizations at the exotic vet for aspiration pneumonia from the drowning, etc.
I will spare you all the details of her problems and treatments, except where it appears to be relevant to the current issue.
She was much less acitive, hiding a lot, and had not been eating very well for several months, but was eating a bite or 2 about twice a week.
On 2/16/2019 I found her in a clear area of her tank, in 5 inches of water, on her back with legs and head extended, appearing to be dead. But as soon as I picked her up, she immediately looked at me and moved easily. Her body was odd puffy: as if she was suddenly 2 sizes too big for her shell and her flesh was protruding wherever it could.
A frantic trip to the exotic vet revealed nothing other than her body was swollen. I had to leave her with them for a couple of days for her puffiness to go down so they could draw some blood. Her blood count was entirely normal (so no return of infection) and the swelling went down. They had no idea what happened with her, but said if it happened again for me to take her to the veterinary school to be seen by the reptile specialists there, and gave me the number to the vet school.
Although I never found her on her back again, the puffiness would come and go, never entirely going away. She remained less active and less responsive, and ate less and less. So I took her to LSU (Louisiana State University) Veterinary School on 3/19 to the reptile specialists. We spent 5 hours there, and she was seen by 2 of the reptile specialist docs, and a vet student. They drew blood and did an ultrasound of her front half (they tried to do an ultrasound of the organs in her back half, but she's too small for their ultrasound probe to fit in the gap by her back legs).

Discussion: None of them have ever seen anything like this before. They have been able to rule out a lot of possibilities.
It's NOT a bacterial infection: blood counts remain entirely normal, she does not appear to have any obvious infections. And over the past 1 and 1/2 years since the drowning, she has had 4 one-week long treatments with antibiotics at my exotics vet, anyway.
It's NOT a parasite infection: she's got no indication of it and my exotics vet treated her for parasites in the past several months "just in case."
It's NOT kidney failure: their blood tests showed entirely normal kidney function.
It's NOT liver failure: their blood tests showed entirely normal liver function.
It's NOT any vitamin deficiency.
Because of the significant personality change after the drowning, they feel confident that she has some degree of brain damage, but there's no reason to think that's causing the current problem.

The ultrasound DID show a "possible mass" up high between her lungs and her carapace. It could be a tumor, it could be thyroid (???) or it could just be scarred lung tissue from her pneumonia that has sort of stuck together and has nothing whatsoever to do with her current problems.

They offered me 3 approaches: Aggressive, Moderate and Conservative.
Aggressive Treatment: A CT scan of her body. It would be able to give more detail as to whether there are any masses developing in her body or not. It would NOT be able to tell us what those masses ARE: only surgery (ie drilling through her shell, etc) would tell us that. Even if there is a mass, it may be unrelated to her problem. The CT scan alone is $600, and that does not include the docs assessment of it.

Moderate Treatment: Give her "empiric treatment" for a fungal infection. "Empiric treatment" means "an educated guess in the absence of complete information." They see no signs of her having a fungal infection- it's just the only thing she hasn't been treated for. The fungal treatment can be one of 2 ways: oral meds or injected into a muscle. EVERY DAY FOR 30 DAYS. Trying to force oral meds on an animal that won't eat and actively resists. Or injections into a small, wiggly animal who is abnormally puffy so that it's hard to even TELL if you're into muscle tissue or just puffy fleshy tissue. AND all this with absolutely ZERO guarantee that this is even the problem at hand.

Conservative Treatment: Take her back home, offer food every couple of days but don't make a big deal of it. Weigh her weekly and bring her back if she loses 18-20 grams in 1 week or 35-40 grams in 2 weeks.

I am going with the Conservative Treatment. The last time she ate anything at all (a single bite of salmon) was 3/16; she has continued to refuse food as recently as yesterday. Her weight at the Vet School was 187.4 gm, and her weight today was 182 gm. So that's only a 5 gm loss in almost 2 whole MONTHS.

About 2 months ago I moved her into her new penthouse suite: 40 gallon breeder tank with her old cave and all the old plastic plants that she is used to. She has 2 basking platform options: a big piece of floating cork and a ramp that she's seen and used before. She does NOT appear to be in pain because she doesn't hide at all (the docs at the Vet School agreed with that assumption). She almost never moves at all: she floats, and is content to drift where the current in her tank takes her. She will occasionally push off from something and turn herself around, and seems to prefer being up front where she watches our comings and goings. Through all this, she is very bright and alert! She is quick to make eye contact and is clearly looking around. But doesn't want to move at all. Even this morning when i weighed her, she let me pick her up, weigh her and put her back in the water. She looked at me the whole time, but never budged. Back when she was healthier, I would have to corner her to pick her up, she would try to climb out of the bowl of her scale and always dived off to hide after I put her back in her tank.

So there you have it. Jacques' Mystery Ailment that has the Veterinary School reptile specialists stumped.

But at least one good thing came out of all this. Her tank is in our dining room, and I just knew it was going to be too depressing to sit there everyday, trying to not notice and wonder what's going on with her. So that's what pushed me to get another turtle, and I got NELSON, my adorable baby razor backed musk turtle who is an absolute delight! Both tanks are in my dining room: Nelson's is to my right as i type this, and Jacques' is to my left. I see and talk to Jacques daily and I also get to see Nelson, too.
Life is a funny old thing.
So here we are.
Jacques sends her love to all.
:):<3:

P.S. Since Jacques is "Miss September" in our 2019 TFO calendar, I bought 2 more calendars and sent them to the docs at the Vet School who worked with her. After all, how often do they get to treat an INTERNATIONAL Calendar Girl??!?!? ;) One of the docs was so happy that she phoned me to thank me in person. :D:<3:
Poor Jacques. I really hope that the new plan of action works.
 

Pastel Tortie

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This is a condensed version (believe it or not!!! :p) of Jacques' most recent health problems.
Jacques, as many of you may know, is my 4 yr old, female eastern mud turtle. Prior to Dec 8 of 2017, Jacques was an active, curious very healthy turtle who was responsive to people approaching her and quick to beg!!!
On Dec 8, 2017, I found her under her basking platform, appearing to have gotten trapped in the plant roots and drowned. She was revived, but was very weak and began a lengthy medical journey, multiple hospitalizations at the exotic vet for aspiration pneumonia from the drowning, etc.
I will spare you all the details of her problems and treatments, except where it appears to be relevant to the current issue.
She was much less acitive, hiding a lot, and had not been eating very well for several months, but was eating a bite or 2 about twice a week.
On 2/16/2019 I found her in a clear area of her tank, in 5 inches of water, on her back with legs and head extended, appearing to be dead. But as soon as I picked her up, she immediately looked at me and moved easily. Her body was odd puffy: as if she was suddenly 2 sizes too big for her shell and her flesh was protruding wherever it could.
A frantic trip to the exotic vet revealed nothing other than her body was swollen. I had to leave her with them for a couple of days for her puffiness to go down so they could draw some blood. Her blood count was entirely normal (so no return of infection) and the swelling went down. They had no idea what happened with her, but said if it happened again for me to take her to the veterinary school to be seen by the reptile specialists there, and gave me the number to the vet school.
Although I never found her on her back again, the puffiness would come and go, never entirely going away. She remained less active and less responsive, and ate less and less. So I took her to LSU (Louisiana State University) Veterinary School on 3/19 to the reptile specialists. We spent 5 hours there, and she was seen by 2 of the reptile specialist docs, and a vet student. They drew blood and did an ultrasound of her front half (they tried to do an ultrasound of the organs in her back half, but she's too small for their ultrasound probe to fit in the gap by her back legs).

Discussion: None of them have ever seen anything like this before. They have been able to rule out a lot of possibilities.
It's NOT a bacterial infection: blood counts remain entirely normal, she does not appear to have any obvious infections. And over the past 1 and 1/2 years since the drowning, she has had 4 one-week long treatments with antibiotics at my exotics vet, anyway.
It's NOT a parasite infection: she's got no indication of it and my exotics vet treated her for parasites in the past several months "just in case."
It's NOT kidney failure: their blood tests showed entirely normal kidney function.
It's NOT liver failure: their blood tests showed entirely normal liver function.
It's NOT any vitamin deficiency.
Because of the significant personality change after the drowning, they feel confident that she has some degree of brain damage, but there's no reason to think that's causing the current problem.

The ultrasound DID show a "possible mass" up high between her lungs and her carapace. It could be a tumor, it could be thyroid (???) or it could just be scarred lung tissue from her pneumonia that has sort of stuck together and has nothing whatsoever to do with her current problems.

They offered me 3 approaches: Aggressive, Moderate and Conservative.
Aggressive Treatment: A CT scan of her body. It would be able to give more detail as to whether there are any masses developing in her body or not. It would NOT be able to tell us what those masses ARE: only surgery (ie drilling through her shell, etc) would tell us that. Even if there is a mass, it may be unrelated to her problem. The CT scan alone is $600, and that does not include the docs assessment of it.

Moderate Treatment: Give her "empiric treatment" for a fungal infection. "Empiric treatment" means "an educated guess in the absence of complete information." They see no signs of her having a fungal infection- it's just the only thing she hasn't been treated for. The fungal treatment can be one of 2 ways: oral meds or injected into a muscle. EVERY DAY FOR 30 DAYS. Trying to force oral meds on an animal that won't eat and actively resists. Or injections into a small, wiggly animal who is abnormally puffy so that it's hard to even TELL if you're into muscle tissue or just puffy fleshy tissue. AND all this with absolutely ZERO guarantee that this is even the problem at hand.

Conservative Treatment: Take her back home, offer food every couple of days but don't make a big deal of it. Weigh her weekly and bring her back if she loses 18-20 grams in 1 week or 35-40 grams in 2 weeks.

I am going with the Conservative Treatment. The last time she ate anything at all (a single bite of salmon) was 3/16; she has continued to refuse food as recently as yesterday. Her weight at the Vet School was 187.4 gm, and her weight today was 182 gm. So that's only a 5 gm loss in almost 2 whole MONTHS.

About 2 months ago I moved her into her new penthouse suite: 40 gallon breeder tank with her old cave and all the old plastic plants that she is used to. She has 2 basking platform options: a big piece of floating cork and a ramp that she's seen and used before. She does NOT appear to be in pain because she doesn't hide at all (the docs at the Vet School agreed with that assumption). She almost never moves at all: she floats, and is content to drift where the current in her tank takes her. She will occasionally push off from something and turn herself around, and seems to prefer being up front where she watches our comings and goings. Through all this, she is very bright and alert! She is quick to make eye contact and is clearly looking around. But doesn't want to move at all. Even this morning when i weighed her, she let me pick her up, weigh her and put her back in the water. She looked at me the whole time, but never budged. Back when she was healthier, I would have to corner her to pick her up, she would try to climb out of the bowl of her scale and always dived off to hide after I put her back in her tank.

So there you have it. Jacques' Mystery Ailment that has the Veterinary School reptile specialists stumped.

But at least one good thing came out of all this. Her tank is in our dining room, and I just knew it was going to be too depressing to sit there everyday, trying to not notice and wonder what's going on with her. So that's what pushed me to get another turtle, and I got NELSON, my adorable baby razor backed musk turtle who is an absolute delight! Both tanks are in my dining room: Nelson's is to my right as i type this, and Jacques' is to my left. I see and talk to Jacques daily and I also get to see Nelson, too.
Life is a funny old thing.
So here we are.
Jacques sends her love to all.
:):<3:

P.S. Since Jacques is "Miss September" in our 2019 TFO calendar, I bought 2 more calendars and sent them to the docs at the Vet School who worked with her. After all, how often do they get to treat an INTERNATIONAL Calendar Girl??!?!? ;) One of the docs was so happy that she phoned me to thank me in person. :D:<3:
Bea, thanks for the detailed update and discussion. I hope Jacques gets to feeling better and back to her old spunky personality.

I am still mulling over everything you've mentioned here, so more may occur to me later.

I am tentatively assuming that the veterinary school at LSU is in contact with other vet schools and specialists. I know my feline vet (different one from my reptile vet) confers with others online for additional thoughts and feedback... when one of my cats has a condition or situation that stumps her.

I read through everything they managed to rule out so far, and that about the only thing Jacques hasn't been treated for so far is fungal...but... What about viral?
 

mark1

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have they ever given her vitamins , ade , b complex ? she's eaten so poorly for so long ......…. an injection of B complex may kick start her appetite ...…….. the evidence might be anecdotal , but I've seen it work many times on turtles that wouldn't eat , some hadn't eaten for 6-8 months , they ate within days of getting it , it was a heck of a coincidence , 4-5 times I can remember ……..
 

Moozillion

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Bea, thanks for the detailed update and discussion. I hope Jacques gets to feeling better and back to her old spunky personality.

I am still mulling over everything you've mentioned here, so more may occur to me later.

I am tentatively assuming that the veterinary school at LSU is in contact with other vet schools and specialists. I know my feline vet (different one from my reptile vet) confers with others online for additional thoughts and feedback... when one of my cats has a condition or situation that stumps her.

I read through everything they managed to rule out so far, and that about the only thing Jacques hasn't been treated for so far is fungal...but... What about viral?

Thanks, Pastel Tortie- It looks like I accidentally left that out: she has no symptoms of any known viral infection.

When I made Jacques' appointment to go to the vet school, I decided that they would be my last stop: I would accept what they said and what they recommended.
These people aren't just regular veterinarians and they're not even exotic animal veterinarians: these are the faculty at the state veterinary school. They TEACH the exotics vets. They do the reptile research. They write the books and papers. They are in touch with international reptile specialists all the time. I don't see how I could do better than that.

Since I work in a medical field myself, I know all too well that there are sometimes cases that you never figure out; that's just how life goes.
I don't have the physical, financial or emotional energy to pursue this to the ends of the earth: the buck has to stop somewhere, and for me the buck stops with the veterinary school. Both my exotics vet and the vet school told me I've gone above and beyond what most people would have done for Jacques. I can find comfort in that.

I haven't totally given up hope, but I'm not expecting miracles.
I plan to follow the current plan and keep her as comfortable and happy as possible.
If she needs to go back to the vet school again, it will be her last trip. Because she is a patient with them, although I would have to pay for euthanasia, they would do the necropsy for free, so that they can learn from her illness and maybe help other turtles with what they learn.

I'm a little sad, but not terribly so- she's been through so much more than I've even shared here. She'll probably go on for a good while yet.
Although she can no longer pull her limbs in the way she used to because of the puffiness, she seems comfortable and content for now, so that's good enough for me.

I really appreciate your love and concern. :):<3:
 

Moozillion

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have they ever given her vitamins , ade , b complex ? she's eaten so poorly for so long ......…. an injection of B complex may kick start her appetite ...…….. the evidence might be anecdotal , but I've seen it work many times on turtles that wouldn't eat , some hadn't eaten for 6-8 months , they ate within days of getting it , it was a heck of a coincidence , 4-5 times I can remember ……..

I appreciate your concern and your suggestions, mark1, I truly do. But her appetite is not the big problem. It's the swelling of her body that's the problem. When they did the ultrasound, in addition to the thing between her lung and carapace, they saw lots of extra fluid inside all her body spaces: the swelling is clearly her entire body, inside and out. THAT is the problem. With all that fluid pressing on all her organs and pushing her flesh out the openings in her shell, I'm not at all sure she would even be ABLE to eat or digest her food: there's not much room in there any more.
I took the photo below just a few days ago, when her swelling was really LOW. You'll notice that she still can't pull her elbow inside her shell because there's still some swelling inside, so the best she can do it just hold it close to her side.

IMG_2822.JPG
 

dmmj

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I doubt there are very many examples of brain damage in turtles or tortoises. But I imagine that would be the result little reaction to stimuli and lethargy. (Not an expert). As for the bloating that is usually result of kidney or heart problems. With no kidney problems detected, the heart is what I would be looking at. I'm surprised they did not offer a suggestion of a feeding tube. It seems like you wait to see if he can recover and then judge his quality of life
 

KarenSoCal

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I'm so glad you have given us this detailed update! I've been wondering about Jacques lately.

I am sad about the lack of improvement, but I agree totally with this conservative approach. You have done everything you can for her...now she will either get better or not.

Be thankful that she is not in pain, and surely recognizes and knows you. I believe she feels safe and comfortable...it's her body that won't cooperate.

I wonder if raising her water temp a few degrees might help her?

Treasure the time you have with her, and remind her that she has been a joy to many of us.

Love and hugs to you, Bea.
[emoji847][emoji847][emoji847][emoji178][emoji174][emoji175]
 

mark1

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you very well may be past that point ...…. the reason I mention it , it is a cheap and real primary or secondary possibility in many cases ...….it has appeared to me long term nutritional deficiencies can be the primary cause behind symptoms attributed to many different secondary causes ……. you certainly went way above and beyond …….. I too would disregard the mass in his chest as there is nothing to be done about that if it's the problem ….. long term deficiencies can cause breakdowns in just about every body system ……..personally I , and for the most part my vet , tend to guess what's wrong with my animals when their ill , the choices being bacterial infection ,nutritional deficiency or parasite infection , most anything else I think is secondary and or logically untreatable , at least from my perspective.... those come down to where you are with Jacques , they either persist and get better or not …their environment can be a factor in some cases , but in my case , and from what I've seen yours , that is pretty much a non-factor ….. lots of folks used to treat their newly acquired animals for these problems as a precaution , regardless of their apparent health ...…..

Vitamins That Can Help With Swelling in the Legs

https://www.livestrong.com/article/532338-vitamins-that-can-help-with-swelling-in-the-legs/

"Lack of vitamin B-1, for instance, can cause fluid increases around the heart, leading to the heart's inability to pump correctly and causing leg swelling"
 

Pastel Tortie

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Tortoise Club
Platinum Tortoise Club
Joined
Jul 31, 2018
Messages
4,264
Location (City and/or State)
North Florida
Bold and Pinstripe send all their best, most positive thoughts to Jacques. Bold said that Jacques is still her(?) idol and inspiration. I think it was Pinstripe who said that Jacques truly is one of "The Greats" and always will be, no matter what. And I'm rather fond of Jacques, myself! ;)
 

CarolM

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 30, 2017
Messages
19,492
Location (City and/or State)
South Africa - Cape Town
Thanks, Pastel Tortie- It looks like I accidentally left that out: she has no symptoms of any known viral infection.

When I made Jacques' appointment to go to the vet school, I decided that they would be my last stop: I would accept what they said and what they recommended.
These people aren't just regular veterinarians and they're not even exotic animal veterinarians: these are the faculty at the state veterinary school. They TEACH the exotics vets. They do the reptile research. They write the books and papers. They are in touch with international reptile specialists all the time. I don't see how I could do better than that.

Since I work in a medical field myself, I know all too well that there are sometimes cases that you never figure out; that's just how life goes.
I don't have the physical, financial or emotional energy to pursue this to the ends of the earth: the buck has to stop somewhere, and for me the buck stops with the veterinary school. Both my exotics vet and the vet school told me I've gone above and beyond what most people would have done for Jacques. I can find comfort in that.

I haven't totally given up hope, but I'm not expecting miracles.
I plan to follow the current plan and keep her as comfortable and happy as possible.
If she needs to go back to the vet school again, it will be her last trip. Because she is a patient with them, although I would have to pay for euthanasia, they would do the necropsy for free, so that they can learn from her illness and maybe help other turtles with what they learn.

I'm a little sad, but not terribly so- she's been through so much more than I've even shared here. She'll probably go on for a good while yet.
Although she can no longer pull her limbs in the way she used to because of the puffiness, she seems comfortable and content for now, so that's good enough for me.

I really appreciate your love and concern. :):<3:
Oh Bea. I am really so very sorry. I do hope that a miracle occurs and all the love and care you have been giving her will miraculously heal her.
 

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