Actual poisonings of tortoises from food, no anecdotes.

Kapidolo Farms

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Acute Ramson (Allium ursinum) Toxicosis in Captive Tortoises
Tom Hellebuyck1, DVM, PhD, DEZCM (Herpetology), Jules Simard1, DVM, Norbert van de Velde1, DVM, Lise Geerinckx2, DVM

The present case report documents acute ramson (Allium ursinum) toxicosis in tortoises. A group of four captive tortoises, including one Aldabra giant tortoise (Aldabrachelys gigantea) and three African spurred tortoises (Centrochelys sulcata), was fed a large quantity of ramson foliage. Approximately 12 hr later, the giant tortoise and two spurred tortoises developed acute and pronounced lethargy, anorexia, and palor of the oral and conjunctival mucosae. The remaining spurred tortoise showed palor of the oral mucosa but did not display other clinical signs. At initial presentation, approximately 24 hr after being fed with ramson, one spurred tortoise had died, and supportive care as well as the administration of activated charcoal was initiated in the remaining tortoises. While the giant tortoise died 5 days following initial presentation, the other two tortoises recovered. Gross pathological, histopathological, blood biochemistry, and hematological findings largely supported what has been documented in other species with Allium sp. toxicosis. Heinz bodies, however, do not seem to be a consistent finding in the blood of tortoises fed with ramson. Although the development of toxicosis due to the ingestion of ramson in tortoises seems to be dose dependent based on the present report, clinical practitioners and reptile pet owners should be aware of the potential detrimental effects of feeding this herb to tortoises. To the authors' knowledge, this is the first report of toxicosis caused by an Allium sp. in reptiles.

Aldabrachelys gigantea, Allium ursinum, Centrochelys sulcata, hemolytic anemia, toxicosis, ramson
 

Tom

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So Will, are you saying that even though tortoises existed without our help for millions of years, they actually don't know what they should and shouldn't eat? :p
 

jsheffield

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I like the idea of this thread... there are a ton of fourth-hand anecdotal stories passed around online as fact about what can and cannot be fed to tortoises.

Jamie
 

wellington

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Personally I think it's quite disgusting they purposely poisoned tortoises! That's as low as testing everything else on animals, I dont believe in it. That's was lifers should be used for.
 

Kapidolo Farms

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You'all need some help with reading. It's a case report from veterinarians seeking to resolve a case from a keeper. They were not purposely fed with intent to poison. They were purposely fed the plants, most likely out of not knowing any better. My Manouria will pretty much eat anything I put on the feeding tiles, but are suspicious of any other greenery within their enclosure. They learn right from wrong, but it's not based on the same criteria we might use.
 

RosemaryDW

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Thank you Will; I wouldn’t mind having a sticky of *just* poisoning cases (no comments).

I wish I knew how “large” a quantity they were fed. I feed my Russian a couple of chives on occasion and rarely a small bit of green onion top. Wild alliums grow where she’s from. These are foods she’s never hesitated to eat, which tell me she’s familiar with something like them.

I wouldn’t feed her a handful of them but still. Maybe it’s a case where what’s poison to one tortoise is fine for another?

Either way, it’s good to have definitive information, not anecdotal.
 
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Kapidolo Farms

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I'd say without specific evidence, you are correct. Tortoises are very variable, and I imagine there are different toxin load capabilities among them.

I started this thread based on getting into a new resource of literature that I did not have before. All but this one account are regarding aquatic turtles environmental toxins disrupting them. There had been a psot on a FB group suggesting faster growth in tortoises would disrupt their endocrine system, again all I find are article regarding sex determination disruption of TSD and maturation. Tortoises do not get much attention. Perhaps they are not as vulnerable, or the cases are not definitive enough, or it's just not 'sexy' research.
Thank you Will; I wouldn’t mind having a sticky of *just* poisoning cases (no comments).

I wish I knew how “large” a quantity they were fed. I feed my Russian a couple of chives on occasion and rarely a small bit of green onion top. Wild alliums grow where she’s from. These are foods she’s never hesitated to eat, which tell me she’s familiar with something like them.

I wouldn’t feed her a handful of them but still. Maybe it’s a case where what’s poison to one tortoise is fine for another?

Either way, it’s good to have definitive information, not anecdotal.
 

Amelia.Walton

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I'd say without specific evidence, you are correct. Tortoises are very variable, and I imagine there are different toxin load capabilities among them.

I started this thread based on getting into a new resource of literature that I did not have before. All but this one account are regarding aquatic turtles environmental toxins disrupting them. There had been a psot on a FB group suggesting faster growth in tortoises would disrupt their endocrine system, again all I find are article regarding sex determination disruption of TSD and maturation. Tortoises do not get much attention. Perhaps they are not as vulnerable, or the cases are not definitive enough, or it's just not 'sexy' research.

Is there a list of what NOT to feed Sulcata? Starting my outdoor enclosure and want to make sure I don’t plant some tilting toxic to Sulcata. Thanks
 

domalle

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As Will said the tortoises were not intentionally fed large quantities of Allium sp. as part of a scientific investigation.
But I can see where someone might jump to that conclusion if they were not familiar with the format of a veterinary report.

It would never occur to me to feed chives or onions to tortoises even if endemic to their environment.
Tortoises sometimes experience toxicity to foodstuffs when there is no other source of food available in their enclosures.
So they sample what's there.
Toxicity does seem dose contingent.
 

Heckhaven

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I had to look it up - when they rely on you to feed your Torts, they will eat anything you give them.
um upload_2019-6-30_10-3-8.png

Species of plant

Allium ursinum, known as wild garlic, ramsons, buckrams, broad-leaved garlic, wood garlic, bear leek or bear's garlic, is a bulbous perennial flowering plant in the lily family Amaryllidaceae. en.wikipedia.org
 

RosemaryDW

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My Russian is a great eater but she absolutely will not eat everything I give her.

When I offer a plant I know plays a large part in her native diet, she does not hesitate at all. The wild Russian eats a ton of Ranunculus, in the form of buttercups, and also oriental poppies. These are both big “Do not feeds” but how can we state they are unsafe, where it forms such a large part of the diet?

They’ve adapted over millennia to the foods that are locally available to them. That’s not the same as knowing whether a food is “good” or “bad,” but it does mean they are able to eat safely eat foods toxic to some tortoises or that we think are toxic to all.

I’ll stop shoplifting Will’s thread now. :)
 

TammyJ

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I thought that maybe the reason some tortoises react badly to some plants and others seem quite OK with the same plant, may be due to what the tortoise had already eaten, and the mixture of one particular plant with another particular one within the digestive tract caused a problem for one of the torts.. Like how mixing some medication with another one is not recommended or advised against as the resulting mix is what is toxic. (???)
 

Kapidolo Farms

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Birds, not tortoises...
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1577644 . and
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1601714

On a Facebook page there was the gazillionth inquiry about if something was toxic. And one respondent fatigued with this kind of question said his DT had eaten oleander flowers with no ill effect. So, I've been try to find if oleander is indeed toxic to tortoises. Nothing in PubMed for 'oleander' and 'reptile'. I'll try a few more databases and see what pops up. I know when I have pruned it, it's long sleeve shirt work no matter how hot it is when doing the pruning.
 

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