IMPORTANT! Chance to amend the 4" law

TurtleBug

Active Member
10 Year Member!
Joined
Nov 3, 2008
Messages
106
Didn't see this posted here yet... This is our chance to have the 4" turtle law amended. Well written comments needed before the deadline.

Original text:

All,

The petition to amend the FDA's 4-inch turtle rule was posted on Regulations.gov on December 8th. You can go to: http://www.regulations.gov/#!docketDetail;D=FDA-2015-P-4664 to review the proposal and post comments. Be sure another d look at all 5-supporting documents and include comments relating to those documents by going to the "Comment Now!" button under Primary Document, Citizen Petition from Richard Fife.
Please be as specific as possible in your comments. The FDA will be looking for specific reasons why the two groups of turtles, which would be excluded from the 4-inch rule by this amendment, would not be attractive as pets for small children. If you believe the $75 exclusion is to high then include a smaller dollar amount and state why. Include your credentials such as industry leader, legal profession, academic, medical/veterinarian, professional organization, etc. Feel free to forward this email to as many people as possible or post on your Facebook page.

Thank you,
Richard Fife
 

TurtleBug

Active Member
10 Year Member!
Joined
Nov 3, 2008
Messages
106
Sorry, I see that I made an error in my copy and paste. Must have accidentally touched the iPad keyboard while doing it. :) Time window for post editing is closed, so here's the correct original text by R. Fife:

"All,

The petition to amend the FDA's 4-inch turtle rule was posted on ‪Regulations.gov‬ on December 8th. You can go to: ‪http://www.regulations.gov/#!docketDetail;D=FDA-2015-P-4664‬ to review the proposal and post comments. Be sure and look at all 5-supporting documents and include comments relating to those documents by going to the "Comment Now!" button under Primary Document, Citizen Petition from Richard Fife.

Please be as specific as possible in your comments. The FDA will be looking for specific reasons why the two groups of turtles, which would be excluded from the 4-inch rule by this amendment, would not be attractive as pets for small children. If you believe the $75 exclusion is to high then include a smaller dollar amount and state why. Include your credentials such as industry leader, legal profession, academic, medical/veterinarian, professional organization, etc. Feel free to forward this email to as many people as possible or post on your Facebook page.

Thank you,

Richard Fife"
 

TurtleBug

Active Member
10 Year Member!
Joined
Nov 3, 2008
Messages
106
As of now 12 comments have been posted in response to the 4" turtle law petition:

"Petitioner requests the FDA Commissioner to amend 21CFR Sec.1240.62 section (c) Exceptions by adding the following two exceptions: The sale and distribution of live turtles and viable turtle eggs, sold for $75 or more and which are listed by the International Union for Conservation of Nature and Natural Resources Red List as Extinct In Wild, Critically Endangered, Endangered, or Vulnerable."

You can read the petition, supporting documents, and submitted comments at

http://www.regulations.gov/#!docketDetail;D=FDA-2015-P-4664

Ps. The link in the 2nd post of this thread got corrupted and doesn't take you to the correct page. Also, if you are not familiar with the 4" turtle law, read the supporting document #1.
 

deadheadvet

Well-Known Member
10 Year Member!
Joined
Sep 5, 2011
Messages
813
Location (City and/or State)
Cary, NC
This was originally submitted by Rich Fife when Bush W was president. It was actually approved for change but the CDC refused to sign off so it is still in place. Ugh. Maybe we can get a better result.
 

dmmj

The member formerly known as captain awesome
10 Year Member!
Joined
Aug 15, 2008
Messages
19,698
Location (City and/or State)
CA
the original idea behind this law was a 4inch turtle cannot be put in a child's mouth. what they fail to grasp is children put their hands in their mouth after touching the turtles so it doesn't matter the size they should make a law saying children have to wash their hands after handling a turtle that would make more sense
 

dmmj

The member formerly known as captain awesome
10 Year Member!
Joined
Aug 15, 2008
Messages
19,698
Location (City and/or State)
CA
I'm sorry ignore the above post I was trying to use logic when dealing with politicians my bad
 

deadheadvet

Well-Known Member
10 Year Member!
Joined
Sep 5, 2011
Messages
813
Location (City and/or State)
Cary, NC
I attended a workshop in Wash. DC in 2014.
It was well attended to include USFWS and the CDC. I left incredibly frustrated with the archaic mind set about the rules of keeping, buying, selling turtles/tortoises to include the 4" rule, transport across state lines with all the red tape that goes with it. There was not even a budge of a possible switch from that mind set. It was difficult to hear as a keeper and collector of tortoises.
 

Paschendale52

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Apr 23, 2015
Messages
237
I've always sort of wondered how this works. Most websites that sell turtles have hatchlings, yearlings, and others that are under 4". The rule doesn't actually make any sense, but this is to be expected from politicians making rules about things they have no understanding of. I'm just curious how business seems to go on perfectly well in the face of this rule, at least as far as online breeders.
 

dmmj

The member formerly known as captain awesome
10 Year Member!
Joined
Aug 15, 2008
Messages
19,698
Location (City and/or State)
CA
is largely not enforced on almost every level.
 

deadheadvet

Well-Known Member
10 Year Member!
Joined
Sep 5, 2011
Messages
813
Location (City and/or State)
Cary, NC
That is why sellers use the clause "not sold as pets, sold for the purpose of research or education.
 

Kapidolo Farms

Well-Known Member
10 Year Member!
Tortoise Club
Platinum Tortoise Club
Joined
Nov 7, 2012
Messages
5,172
Location (City and/or State)
South of Southern California, but not Mexico
The Reader's Digest version

First link, the petition and the comments generated by the public.

Second link, FDA saying they have not done their job to look at all the information within the scripted legal 180 days following the end of the public comment period.

Third link, USARK doing the thinking for the USDA that they have not done for themselves, essentially doing the review of facts relative to when the law was written and how it is acting today.

Conclusion: The USDA is in no hurry to do anything that could end up in the press as them not doing their job. Think about which headline will get picked up and sensationalized?

Headline one " citizens who breed tortoises are further troubled by the inaction of the USDA to properly fulfill their civic duty as employees of the citizenry"

Headline two " Child dies after buying a $75 turtles at a reptile swap meet in (city name) after USDA lifts 40 year ban on their sale."
 

TurtleBug

Active Member
10 Year Member!
Joined
Nov 3, 2008
Messages
106
Denial - 4” turtle law amendment petition

Denial letter with explanations 3/2019 (posted 5/2019):
https://www.regulations.gov/content...-4664-0041&attachmentNumber=1&contentType=pdf


Docket FDA-2015-P-4664 (FDA, HHS):
https://www.regulations.gov/docket?D=FDA-2015-P-4664
Petitioner requests the FDA Commissioner to amend 21CFR Sec.1240.62 section (c) Exceptions by adding the following two exceptions: The sale and distribution of live turtles and viable turtle eggs, sold for $75 or more and which are listed by the International Union for Conservation of Nature and Natural Resources Red List as Extinct In Wild, Critically Endangered, Endangered, or Vulnerable. CLOSED.
 

Stoneman

Active Member
Joined
Jan 12, 2018
Messages
354
Location (City and/or State)
Pacific Northwest, United States
This is such a bunch of bullshit. The FDA does not try to restrict poultry keepers, or dog or cat keepers from exposure to kids, and therefore highly regulating those industries. This is prejudice and we are small potatoes so they DGAF about us.

If they want a better survey I am sure we can figure something out. We need to stand together.
 

Stoneman

Active Member
Joined
Jan 12, 2018
Messages
354
Location (City and/or State)
Pacific Northwest, United States
This mostly unenforced law needs to be overturned. otherwise they are just going to keep picking and choosing who they go after. look what they have done to Richard Fife for trying to stand up to them!
 

Toddrickfl1

Well-Known Member
Tortoise Club
5 Year Member
Platinum Tortoise Club
Joined
Jan 7, 2018
Messages
7,103
Location (City and/or State)
Ga
This mostly unenforced law needs to be overturned. otherwise they are just going to keep picking and choosing who they go after. look what they have done to Richard Fife for trying to stand up to them!
They're currently after e-cigs because 6 deaths may have been linked to them. Don't worry though cigarettes are still ok, they only kill 500,000 people a year..........
 
Top