12 year Russian Tortoise owner, recently moved with some questions

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icenine

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Hey everyone! Just made an account here as I've recently done some pretty drastic overhauling with my Russian Tortoise. I've got some general specific care questions so I'll tell you a bit about the situation and the tortoise :) Thanks in advance for anyone taking the time to read or chime in. Also if you don't want to read all of the text, I'll put a line where my questions come up so you can skip the context if you want to :)

I've had my Russian for 12 years, he was purchased from a pet store in San Diego. Out there, we built a brick-based outdoor pen in the side yard.

Since then we moved to the San Jose, CA area and the tortoise did fine with the move. Again we build a brick outdoor pen in the side yard (though in harder soil than previously).
We fed him almost exclusively Romaine lettuce (yes, I'm fully aware they SHOULD have diet variety and they need vitamin dusting etc. but we'll get to that). He also has never had a water dish and rarely had a heat lamp, but he's been a hardy creature. We put him in a shoebox in the garage around October/November when it starts to rain and he has every year hibernated from about November-February without any problems.

I left for college September 2011 and left him with my roommate's girlfriend (they had another Russian as well). They kept him in a glass tank with hamster bedding and a heat lamp, indoors. Despite the glass tank w/ hamster bedding being less than ideal, they took better care of him than I ever did to be honest, as we did little more than let him roam in his pen and just fed him washed lettuce every day or two.

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Finally, I moved back home for the summer, put him outdoors again, and then 4 months later (fast forward to 3 weeks ago) I moved back up to school (Davis, CA near Sacramento) and into an apartment. This is where my questions and overhauling come up.

I put him in a large 50-gallon black plastic bin with moist soft dirt substrate, a "forest floor" wood-chip substrate, and his hamster bedding. Not surprisingly to me, he can almost always be found in the soft dirt substrate (which I have another bag of) and it almost seems like he's taken to relieving himself almost always on the hamster bedding. Would be pretty cool if he potty trained automatically.

I was keeping him in the backyard outdoor patio but unfortunately it's covered and the only place it isn't, a huge tree casts shade. For the past 2 and a half weeks or so, he's had almost no light (I've been so busy with everything I only just realized it last night). It does get warm here during the day but I noticed he seemed more lethargic and had less of an appetite. This morning I moved him inside, put a frisbee with water and Romaine lettuce in his enclosure, and put a heat lamp on. Pretty quickly he went to the lamp (ignoring his food; he hasn't eaten in 2 or 3 days now but that isn't particularly abnormal for him). He spent literally 2 hours under the lamp and has since burrowed.

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My questions are as follows:
- How important is light - or more specifically, how does the lack of light affect the tortoise?
- He's always been very timid - he does open up over time, but any sort of movement and even shadows and he will exhale air and shoot into his shell. From time to time when we had him outside he did roam around very fast and he wouldn't flinch when we'd reach down to feed him. He also is capable of learning and relearning to eat from my hands with very little trouble. But overall, he's timid and skittish. I know this is atypical behavior for RT's, but is it bad/does it need to be corrected some way?
- How important is the water dish? He's never had one before and he's always been fine, never been sick or anything, we joke that it's like I have a pet rock because he's only awake 7 or 8 months of the year and when he is awake, he seems to survive any weather, a one-dimensional diet, indoor and outdoor living etc. so I'm not convinced that for him it's necessary, but what changes should I expect to see now that I've introduced the dish? (Which he basically ignores so far).
- How important is handling him?
- He has literally no nails on his front feet. I can't find an example online of what this looks like, he just has stubby feet on the front two. I can't even remember if he ever did, but I think the chances are that he shaved away whatever nails he did have by burrowing constantly outside. Has anyone else heard or seen of this? It doesn't seem to hurt him or anything, he's been that way as long as I can remember so I'm not concerned, just found it unusual that even online I can't find anyone whose Russian has no front nails.
- Finally, do RT's live well with other breeds? He has lived before with a male RT (my brother's which ran away) and a female RT (my brother's which pretty mysteriously died in only a few months). My RT would bob his head and try to bite the female which I understand is pretty normal, but he was never violent or anything like that. I'm not very seriously considering trying to care for other animals just yet because I'm only just now figuring out how to take care of the one I have in our new living arrangement, and school starts Thursday which will give me less time for another high-maintenance pet. But my question is, are there other similarly hardy, low-maintenance tortoises that the RT might get along with?

Thanks so much for bearing with me, I could really use the help here because this is the only time in 12 years I've been confused as to how I should approach living and care with my tortoise.
 

Yvonne G

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Welcome to the Forum, icenine!

Wow! Your info is a testament to just how hardy little steppe tortoises are. Almost everything you have described is the wrong way to care for him. He's very lucky you have come to your senses and joined our forum.

Am I to understand that there is no place where you live now to set the tortoise up outside? Then get the largest container you possible can fit into the space you have available. Steppe tortoises require a lot of room to roam around. I'm thinking your little guy's toenails are telling you that he needed more room and he was continuously trying to dig out of wherever he was living.

A nice, deep substrate of forest floor mulch, orchid bark, coco coir, or even dirt would be better than hamster bedding. Deep enough for him to bury himself.

You can buy a nice variety of different greens that a steppe tortoise might eat. The produce section of any store would have turnip greens, mustard greens, endive, escarole, dandelion greens, etc. In the packaged lettuces section you can find one called Spring Mix. You may have to ween him off the romaine by gradually decreasing it and increasing the other.

Steppe tortoises usually don't appreciate water dishes. I keep one in my steppe habitat, but I've never seen any of them in it or even drink from it. But, I'll bet your little guy would drink if you were to do a forced soak...place him in a little tub he can't climb out of in some warm water and just leave him in there for about 15 minutes.

Can't think of anything else right off the top of my head, except to say, good for you to think more of your tortoise than your ego and ask for help here. It makes this mom very proud!!
 

icenine

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Thanks for the info emy,
In the apartment we have, he's in the biggest container I could pretty much reasonably do. I could put him outside in a far bigger container but we'd have the light problem again.
Your hypothesis on the toenails could be true, but he had a TON of space in the outdoor pen. At circle at least 8 feet in diameter I'd say. I feel like the hard soil out there might be what did it... but as I said I don't even really remember if he ever had front nails.

Forest floor mulch made of coco coir is in there but he doesn't seem to care for it as I've never seen him in it. Right now he's under his half-log in his very burrow-able dirt substrate which is probably about 5 or 6 inches deep right now, and I still have an unopened bag of it left if you think maybe I ought to ditch the bedding and fill more of his space with the soft dirt he prefers.

I'll definitely consider doing the spring mix, and next time I'm by petco I'll remember to get some sort of calcium powder stuff for him.

Ultimately I do agree - my care for him is nothing but a testament to how hardy these guys are. Like I said he's never been ill and never seemed lethargic for more than very brief periods. We've always been aware we could take better care of him, but we've been so long caring for him in the way we did that we figured if he been totally fine, why change anything? But the move has forced me to make the changes so as you said I've decided I should get some advice because I may as well do better. Just because he would probably survive 20 more years in a bathroom cabinet doesn't mean I ought to put him in one :p
 

icenine

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Here are pictures of him and his new space.

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taytay3391

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Most people won't think that's enough space. But I think it looks good. So does your tort! Do you have heat for him at all?
 

icenine

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taytay3391 said:
Most people won't think that's enough space. But I think it looks good. So does your tort! Do you have heat for him at all?

Thanks! :) I would love to give him a huge enclosure but a 2nd year college student gotta do what he gotta do.

The heat is coming from the lamp clamped right now to the middle but I think I'm gonna add the rest of the dirt substrate and move the lamp to a corner so the heat is easier to escape when he's done with it. It pretty noticeably heats up and he does bask under it.
 

icenine

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Also he just ate a bunch of the lettuce a little bit ago, which is good because I was a little concerned he wasn't eating. Had to move the lettuce out of the frisbee for him to bother
 

TortoiseBoy1999

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taytay3391 said:
Most people won't think that's enough space. But I think it looks good. So does your tort! Do you have heat for him at all?

That's because it isn't enough space. Maybe you can find a bigger tub? And I don't see any UVB. And no water.
 

taytay3391

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icenine said:
Thanks! :) I would love to give him a huge enclosure but a 2nd year college student gotta do what he gotta do.

The heat is coming from the lamp clamped right now to the middle but I think I'm gonna add the rest of the dirt substrate and move the lamp to a corner so the heat is easier to escape when he's done with it. It pretty noticeably heats up and he does bask under it.

An I thought the lamp was a UVB lol. And yea I'm a third year so I know what cha mean.
 

LuckysGirl007

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From what I have read and my own experience you want to ditch the clamp. Try to find a way to hang the light from something or maybe get something metal you can sit it on. It's better for it to shine straight down and also the clamps fail a LOT and fall into the enclosure. Mine fell, luckily I was right there to grab it! He looks really cute!
 

taytay3391

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LuckysGirl007 said:
From what I have read and my own experience you want to ditch the clamp. Try to find a way to hang the light from something or maybe get something metal you can sit it on. It's better for it to shine straight down and also the clamps fail a LOT and fall into the enclosure. Mine fell, luckily I was right there to grab it! He looks really cute!

I have been using two clamp lamps. I just zip tied them so they don't move.
 

LuckysGirl007

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Also, I'm not an expert on RT's but I'm pretty sure they do not do well together. Definitely not with another species. I also am pretty sure that tortoises need heat to digest there food. I know Sulcata's need to be able to get their body temp above 80* to digest. Maybe that's why he wasn't eating??? Again, not an expert on ANYTHING. Just new to the tort world myself and I have a completely different species. I just noticed you still had a few questions not answered yet so I thought I would put out there what I have read in my own quest of being a good tort mom. I'm sure if you go to he RT section of the forum and go to the "stickies" you will find much better information and care sheets for your little guy!
 

BowandWalter

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MVBs last longer when positioned facing directly down, according to the foggy memory I have of my pamphlet, they'll even replace properly housed bulbs for free. Which is great if your on a budget.
 

LuckysGirl007

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BowandWalter said:
MVBs last longer when positioned facing directly down, according to the foggy memory I have of my pamphlet, they'll even replace properly housed bulbs for free. Which is great if your on a budget.

Wow! Never heard about that FREE part before! Maybe I will be getting one of those after all!
 

BowandWalter

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LuckysGirl007 said:
Wow! Never heard about that FREE part before! Maybe I will be getting one of those after all!

Only if you keep it in a hanging fixture, and I think it's only if the bulb burns out before one year passes. I don't have the pamphlet with me, but it's an ExoTerra bulb. Mine has lasted very well :)
 

lynnedit

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MVB bulbs should face straight down for optimum function.
If you fill out the warranty card, and the bulb blows, then it will be replaced within that period (6 to 12 months, depending on the bulb).

Icenine, what kind of bulb are you using? What is the brand? It sounds as if your tort won't get much sun, so you will need to provide UV, not just light and heat. Something like a Powersun 100w MVB would work. And you are right, place it on one end so that there is also a cool end.

Right under the basking light should be about 95 to 100F, the cool side 65 to 70F. If your tort gets too hot he will burrow. If he gets too cold, he will burrow. You don't need heat at night. Keep the light/heat on for about 12 hours.

Check this out for diet ideas:

http://russiantortoise.net/ Look under the 'diet' and 'care sheet' sections.
 

kanalomele

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Hi and welcome to the Sacramento Valley. I am a long time RT lover myself and only about 30 min from you in elk grove. Unless the nails are looking raw at all don't worry about it. Your tort is telling you he wants to move around and burrow. You may notice some growth on them now that he is inside. Lighting is very important, I usually recommend a MVB. It usually provides enough light and heat if they are kept inside here. If you need more heat, I use a che. Get a temp gun and check his temps regularly. It is coming into brumating season here for mine. If you are interested in that and need some help let me know. We usually get cold enough here in the winter that it is pretty easy. If he is having any trouble adjusting you may not want to this year. My adults are kept outside, but the inside guys are on a substrate of 50/50 coir and organic topsoil. Or dirt from the yard and sphagnum.
Give him as much space as you can. With regular exercise romps through the apt, he will be fine. However it will frustrate him to no end to have his world shrunk down to nothing and also have no exercise.
At least once a week soak him!! Did you notice the exclamation points... A small saucer of water will suffice in the enclosure, but in such tight quarters I might opt for the floor space. If so ditch the saucer and soak him twice a week.
At his age his behavior is probably pretty set. Some of them are just more shy. It's him, accept him as he is.
My rt's live relatively well together, but they have a very large area. In general, they are solitary torts. He does not need any companion other than you. If you want him to come and greet you, just know the quickest way to do this is to always, always have a treat. Go for a walk and find some dandylion! A varied diet will help him to adjust. Keep him interested in what you will bring next. Umm, can't think of anything else... Oh and welcome to TFO!
Davis is a great school, take some.time and visit the Mondavi center as well.
A-mazing!
 

icenine

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Thanks for all of the answers! I read everything but can't address everything with a quote, but I'll try my best to cover my bases in responding.

First off, excuse my ignorance - MVB light?? It's true he likely won't get much sunlight possibly for the next 3 years, so if fancy UV things are in order I'll put it on my list and remember to get them next time I'm out. The bulb that was in before was dead, so I replaced it with a bulb from a lamp at least for something temporary so he can get light and heat inside. That said it's probably something like a 40 or 60 watt phillips brand light bulb. Something you'd use for your bedroom. But it really was only temporary til I could get a new bulb.

He lived indoors on bedding for 9 months last year while I was in the dorms, they let him romp around the house but his nails didn't grow back at all. Still stubby as ever. They don't look raw, peeling, red or anything. They look more like hooves, it's possible that they calloused over for lack of a better way to describe it.

To everyone crying it isn't enough space, I know, trust me, I'd love to put him somewhere bigger. He grew up in an outdoor pen that was probably like 50 square feet give or take. I live in an apartment and I have no outlets on the patio so I'll let you guys decide which is more important, leave him loose in the patio with no light or put him in the enclosure with regular light and attention. Can't have both, it's an apartment and it's enough that the bin is half the size of our couch in the living room right now. :p However I'm not at all adversed to the suggestions of taking him outside from time to time to let him romp. As for indoors it'd mean I have to clean the bottom of his shell regularly, watch him while he romps and clean up after him so he doesnt pee all over our floors and give us salmonella. Just in case anyone was thinking it, my response to "if you weren't gonna put all the time into it why did you get one" you gotta keep in mind I was 7 when I got him and I do what time permits, which often times isn't much once classes start. We knew they live for days and we were told they're low maintenance and hardy pets that I'd be able to keep even if I got busy or moved in the future. So far it's proven true, but of course it never hurts to strive to do better.

After basking under the lamp today he nommed up the lettuce with fervor, it does seem that light/heat might have been affecting his digestion and therefore his appetite.

There is water in the frisbee where the lettuce is in the pictures (I moved the lettuce out after taking the pictures, he seemed completely uninterested in anything the frisbee had to offer).

I'll definitely do some lukewarm water soaks with him. I've never really done much of that but I don't think it should be too hard. :)
 

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It's always hard to tell from a picture, but to me, your guys eyes look a little sunken in, this is usually a sign of dehydration. I too would recommend soaks at least once a week. It not only gives him an opportunity to drink, theres evidence they can absorb water through the thin skin on the neck and through the cloaca.
 

taytay3391

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I actually soak my Russian everyday for about 20mins. This way she defecates and pees in the water and there is no clean up! Also she tends to love the warm water.
 
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