13 yr old leopard and 5 yr old hermann died within 10 days of each other?

[Darren1965]

If anyone could shed any light on what could have happened to my two torts please?
I’d had the Leopard from a youngster and although not a hibernating tort he would slow down during the dark winter months. In summer he lived mostly outside feeding on natural grasses. I found him dead on the 20th January. I was very upset and started to go over in minute detail anything I’d done or changed or should have noticed to explain his death but couldn’t pin point anything. Over the next few days I payed extra attention to any signs of illness in my remaining Herman tort. I double checked his diet hydration temperature of habitat etc. Just to be certain I had been doing everything correctly. Then 10 days after the Leopard had died I found the hermann had died overnight in his tort table. To be clear the two torts shared the same building/airspace but were housed completely separately from each other. The only point of contact for a possible contagion was me for example handling one tort then the other during their daily checks. I’m sure I don’t have to tell you how desperately upset our family is to lose two torts that had thrived for so long one after the other. If anyone has the slightest clue as to what could have happened please do comment. It’s too late to have post mortems as both torts are buried. I have disinfected everywhere and kept my other pets out of the building where the torts were housed in case of cross infection.
Thank you for taking the time to read this post. I’m so sorry it’s such a sad one x

 

[TechnoCheese]

Would you have happened to spray chemicals anywhere near an air vent, or the enclosures?
Could you give us a rundown of their care? Temps, humidity, symptoms they showed before, etc?

 

[Tom]

Were they both captive bred? This would reduce the likelihood of disease.

What were their four temps? Warm side, cool side, basking area and overnight low? For each one.

What heating and lighting equipment were you using to achieve and maintain these temps? UV? What type?

How often were you soaking?

What were you feeding them?


I hope we can help you figure out what happened...

 

[Darren1965]

Yes certainly.

Both tortoises had their separate habitats within an insulated and heated outbuilding which they’d been in for a long long time with no problems. Both torts had access to natural sun shine in the summer. The Leopard always enjoyed the run of the garden and the younger Herman had his out door run.
They were on delegate diets according to breed and did not come into direct contact with each other. I also have two cats, two dogs and a rabbit. None of these other pets have ever showed the slightest interest in the torts and other than having access to the outbuilding where the torts lived at night they too, didn’t have any direct contact. No chemicals are used in the garden or stored in the outbuilding. Thanks

 

[Darren1965]

Were they both captive bred? This would reduce the likelihood of disease.

What were their four temps? Warm side, cool side, basking area and overnight low? For each one.

What heating and lighting equipment were you using to achieve and maintain these temps? UV? What type?

How often were you soaking?

What were you feeding them?


I hope we can help you figure out what happened...

 

[Darren1965]

Both captive bred yes. Leopard 13 Herm, 5.
The temp would not go any lower than 18 degrees Celsius (temperature controlled building. During the day the temperature would increase according to the amount of sunlight. The hermann would soak approx every 5 to 7 days. The leopard would only eat and drink and bath etc in summer. In winter he would always slow down and not eat or drink.
Each was fed according to breed
The leopard ate grasses the Herman’s ate lettuce, cucumber, dandelion leaves, broccoli and sprout tops

 

[Darren1965]

Were they both captive bred? This would reduce the likelihood of disease.

What were their four temps? Warm side, cool side, basking area and overnight low? For each one.

What heating and lighting equipment were you using to achieve and maintain these temps? UV? What type?

How often were you soaking?

What were you feeding them?


I hope we can help you figure out what happened...

 

[Darren1965]

My apologies I neglected to mention any symptoms. In the case of the Lropatd tort I had noticed nothing unusual. In the case of the Herman’s whom I was watching extra closely following the death of the Leopard no obvious symptoms other than during his last soak he seemed to be having trouble holding his neck up or lifting his head out of the water. He seemed the same as ever other than that.

 

[Tom]

Both captive bred yes. Leopard 13 Herm, 5.
The temp would not go any lower than 18 degrees Celsius (temperature controlled building. During the day the temperature would increase according to the amount of sunlight. The hermann would soak approx every 5 to 7 days. The leopard would only eat and drink and bath etc in summer. In winter he would always slow down and not eat or drink.
Each was fed according to breed
The leopard ate grasses the Herman’s ate lettuce, cucumber, dandelion leaves, broccoli and sprout tops

You've told me the low, but not the other three temps. 18 over night is fine for the hermann, as long as he could warm up during the day, but much too cold for a leopard, especially in your climate. The lack of eating and drinking over winter is an indicator that you had a major problem.

Regular leopards will eat some grass sometimes, but that is not enough to sustain them. They need an assortment of broadleaf weeds and succulents. The dandelions for your hemanni were a good start, but the rest of what you were offering lacks what they need. They need primarily broad leaf weeds. Weeds have a much higher calcium level, calcium to phosphorous ratio and fiber levels.

It also appears that you were not soaking them. Hydration is a key element to a captive tortoises survival. Allowing them to decide on their own sometimes leads to their demise.

What substrate were they on? Was it damp or dry?

Pardon the inquisition, but to figure this out, we need to look at all the possibilities. It seems like you want to figure this out, so bear with me, and I'll give you my best guesses.

 

[TechnoCheese]

Try comparing your care with this-
How To Raise A Healthy Sulcata Or Leopard, Version 2.0
https://tortoiseforum.org/index.php...ealthy-Sulcata-Or-Leopard,-Version-2.0.79895/
Sticky: HERMANN'S TORTOISE CARE SHEET *UPDATED
https://tortoiseforum.org/index.php?threads/Sticky:-HERMANN'S-TORTOISE-CARE-SHEET-*UPDATED.101410/

 

[Markw84]

This sounds like gastro enteritis. It is unfortunately much more common than most people realize, because it often shows no symptoms first because the tortoise's metabolism has been slowed down so much.

Tortoises can survive conditions often for years, even though they are in conditions that CAN kill them. A leopard with a winter "slow down" is not good. A Herman's that was not properly prepared to hibernate is also in trouble. If you had an unusually cold spell, or longer cool spell with the conditions you described, the tortoises will have food in their gut that actually will start to rot and lead to infection when temperatures go down and they can not longer metabolize the stuff and get it through the gut. No visible outside signs as the infection builds inside. Tortoises have to be able to get their body temps to at least 28° and higher to metabolise. if there is no way to do that for several days in a row, you are always risking enteritis to begin.

 

[Darren1965]

You've told me the low, but not the other three temps. 18 over night is fine for the hermann, as long as he could warm up during the day, but much too cold for a leopard, especially in your climate. The lack of eating and drinking over winter is an indicator that you had a major problem.

Regular leopards will eat some grass sometimes, but that is not enough to sustain them. They need an assortment of broadleaf weeds and succulents. The dandelions for your hemanni were a good start, but the rest of what you were offering lacks what they need. They need primarily broad leaf weeds. Weeds have a much higher calcium level, calcium to phosphorous ratio and fiber levels.

It also appears that you were not soaking them. Hydration is a key element to a captive tortoises survival. Allowing them to decide on their own sometimes leads to their demise.

What substrate were they on? Was it damp or dry?

Pardon the inquisition, but to figure this out, we need to look at all the possibilities. It seems like you want to figure this out, so bear with me, and I'll give you my best guesses.

No problem answering questions but please do understand that their conditions and feed had been the same for as long as I’d had them -13 years the leopard and 5 years the hermann. You would be perfectly right in asking if they had ideal conditions throughout their lives and the honest answer had to be that they did not. However each had managed well prior to their deaths within 10 days of each other. I’m certainly not an expert and took the information for their separate diet and habitats from books I purchased at the garden centre. Iuntil this happened I hadn’t used a forum for advice as both tortoises seemed well and active in the years I had them. To be fair as a result of searching for answers I do now see that there is a lot more to get wrong than I ever knew.
So in terms of diet the leipardvwould way whatever was available to him in the garden supplemented with occasional leafy greens when it was to cold to be outside. The Herman’s would also eat dark leafy greens - I had been told that commercial tortoise pellets/granules were a bad idea so they never had them. The daytime temperature in their building was around 22 degrees Celsius. The substrate used for the Herman’s was either wood shavings or a commercially bought sand/soil mixture.
And the leopard had straw. Soaking was done st leafy ever week for the little one and the big one would have regular baths in summer and a dish of water available in winter. The leopard tended to sleep a lot during winter and would rarely feed or drink. However this had been normal for them and knowing what I have learnt on various websites I can see that bathing the leopard in warm water during December/January as well would have been beneficial. To be honest I’ve been dreadfully upset over what has happened and I’ve lain awake at night crucifying myself that there was so much to tortoise care that I hadn’t known. The dreadful thing is feeling that a lack of proper care on my part had caused them to suffer. It still seems really weird that they died so close together? Perhaps I want to think that a virus or bacteria took them as to think I’ve not looked after them properly is unbearable.

 

[Darren1965]

This sounds like gastro enteritis. It is unfortunately much more common than most people realize, because it often shows no symptoms first because the tortoise's metabolism has been slowed down so much.

Tortoises can survive conditions often for years, even though they are in conditions that CAN kill them. A leopard with a winter "slow down" is not good. A Herman's that was not properly prepared to hibernate is also in trouble. If you had an unusually cold spell, or longer cool spell with the conditions you described, the tortoises will have food in their gut that actually will start to rot and lead to infection when temperatures go down and they can not longer metabolize the stuff and get it through the gut. No visible outside signs as the infection builds inside. Tortoises have to be able to get their body temps to at least 28° and higher to metabolise. if there is no way to do that for several days in a row, you are always risking enteritis to begin.

Thank you for your reply. I did not hibernate the Herman’s as I was told by our reptile centre it wasn’t necessary. He stayed awake all year

 

[TechnoCheese]

Did you have heat source for either?

 

[Darren1965]

Did you have heat source for either?

Yes, both had heat mats

 

[Tom]

Yes, both had heat mats

There are some "imperfections" in your care it seems, but I cannot explain how they survived like this for all these years and then both suddenly died within 10 days of each other with no explanation. I could see how the leopard died, but the temps are okay for a hermanni. No reason why both would die so close together.

Mark's idea would explain it, but why hasn't this happened in all the previous years?

My best guess is some sort of acute poisoning. Either the food or something in the air? Perhaps cleaning products? Perhaps a neighbor sprayed something nearby and the fumes got in? Possibly even foul play? Anyone mad at you?

 

[Darren1965]

There are some "imperfections" in your care it seems, but I cannot explain how they survived like this for all these years and then both suddenly died within 10 days of each other with no explanation. I could see how the leopard died, but the temps are okay for a hermanni. No reason why both would die so close together.

Mark's idea would explain it, but why hasn't this happened in all the previous years?

My best guess is some sort of acute poisoning. Either the food or something in the air? Perhaps cleaning products? Perhaps a neighbor sprayed something nearby and the fumes got in? Possibly even foul play? Anyone mad at you?

Gosh I hope no-ones that mad at me to hurt the torts! basically they’d have to be mad full stop to do that. Yes they’d survived and thrived year on year - the leopard was huge. He always slowed down in winter even when he had his lamp and heat mat on - in fact he’d rarely choose to sit under his lamp preferring his cooler area. I take note of all the up to date advice and thank everyone for their contribution. If we ever decide to have another we will make certain we follow all care advice to the letter.

 

[Yvonne G]

No, please don't think that. All the questions are just to try to figure out what happened. No one is mad at you or pointing fingers at your care. It's terrible to lose two tortoises and I'm so very sorry this happened.

 

[Markw84]

There are some "imperfections" in your care it seems, but I cannot explain how they survived like this for all these years and then both suddenly died within 10 days of each other with no explanation. I could see how the leopard died, but the temps are okay for a hermanni. No reason why both would die so close together.

Mark's idea would explain it, but why hasn't this happened in all the previous years?

My best guess is some sort of acute poisoning. Either the food or something in the air? Perhaps cleaning products? Perhaps a neighbor sprayed something nearby and the fumes got in? Possibly even foul play? Anyone mad at you?

I've seen plenty of examples of tortoises surviving for years in similar situations. We don't realize they are on the edge many times, but pull through. Just enough warmth comes along before it's too late, or it cooled down slow enough that they did not have too much food in the gut. This can happen for years. Then, one year, there is a warm spell and they eat a bit more than usual. followed by an extended cold spell where the sun doesn't even come out for 2 weeks or more and they never get a chance to warm up. A bulb in their night box goes out and its a few more days before it's realized. Food in the gut and extended cold with no chance to warm up is a recipe for this to happen.

Same thing will happen to a hibernating species if they don't prepare for hibernation properly. They are certainly capable of hibernating, but here, they are not hibernating, yet allowed to eat, stay awake, yet not provided enough heat to properly metabolize. So both leopard and hermans are in the same state.

 

[wellington]

So sorry to read about your loss. Please, if you do decide to get more tortoises, stick to the info on this forum for their care. I'm afraid your books led you wrong. My leopards living here in cold snowy Chicago slow a bit in winter on the amount of time they are awake and wandering but they still eat and drink daily. Also during winter they are still kept in 80 degrees and warmer.
Sure wish you had found us sooner. Not sure if our help would have been enough to keep them alive, but at least it would have been correct.
Again, very sorry. Stick around and read all the care info and maybe you will want to get a couple more.