2 baby tortoises

[Corwin]

Hello,

i am a resident of arizona (mesa), and yesterday my parents brought home 2 baby (3 day old today) Desert Sonoran Tortoises without doing any prior research, and are now expecting me to care for them (they will pay for stuff they said). [i am 21 and living at home while going to school]. before anyone spews out stuff about legality, i did their research for them, and it *is* legal, we got them from a captive bred source(who should not have been breeding them, but whatever).

now i have kept fish, cats, dogs, birds, and even bugs (my room was dubbed a "zoo" by my dad), reptile wise however, i have only ever read stuff, and even then only about snakes and some lizards. i have never dabbled in tortoises much less read anything about them since yesterday.

right now we have them in a Rubbermaid container maybe 10" x 10". . . which way to small i know. the substrate us garden dirt and we have provided spinach and a shallow dish of water. i had an empty 10 gallon aquarium i have emptied of water where i can keep them temporarily. . . at least its bigger :/

now i have read a lot of info on these guys over the past night, but there seems to be a major lack on hatchling care.

here is what i couldn't find a sure answer on

1) can they be kept inside until spring? (so we can get a proper enclosure built during the winter months)
1a) if yes, what kind of supplies do we need? (lamps, heaters, caves, etc)

2) do we let them/make them hibernate their first winter? (some places say yes, others no), if yes, how do we do that, if no, how do we stop it?

3) what to feed them, they seem to ignore the spinach? do we need to feed any supplements?

4) what substrate is best for them? i read sand and small gravel is bad, all the petco/petmart sells is wood mulch type stuff or coconut fiber, i havent had a chance to go to the specialty reptile/fish store yet, we read "sterelized topsoil" is good, but where can we find that? or how can we sterilize our own?

5) how often and for how long should we take them outside (i know they need sun (UVB) to metabolize D3 and calcium properly)

6) i am pretty sure these guys dont need the be kept in a humid environment right, being desert tortoises?

i am sure i will think of many more questions, and any additional advice you have to give is greatly appreciated.

-ben

 

[Yvonne G]

Here is a copy of the care sheet I hand out when I adopt out the baby desert tortoises:

CAPTIVE CARE OF DESERT TORTOISE HATCHLINGS
(Researched from Ron Tremper’s article in Herp Review 9/78)
By Yvonne M. Gomez


It has been found that a good temperature gradient cannot be attained by housing your baby tortoises in a glass aquarium. You can reach a good temperature variance from one end of the habitat to the other, by the use of a large plastic tub, such as an under-the-bed storage container or large Rubbermaid tote.
The whole key to any reptile’s survival is proper environment. Many reptiles fare better if exposed to a mild temperature drop from day to night.
It is best not to overcrowd your habitat. A group of four hatchlings or less, is preferred rather than a larger number, in one habitat. The habitat should be equipped with a clamp-on light socket and a 60 watt bulb. The light fixture should be mounted at one end of the habitat, so that the youngsters can move away from the heat source to cool down as needed.
If you keep your habitat in a room that reaches temperatures below 60 degrees, you should also provide a night-time clamp-on fixture that holds a black or red bulb. You want your habitat to experience no more than 25 degrees variance between day time and night time. It is best for the daytime temperature at the hot end of the habitat to be in the 80’s and the night time temperature to not get below 65 degrees. You may have to experiment with covering the enclosure to hold in the heat and keep out the cold draught from the room.
It has also been found that having the baby on a moist substrate helps keep his shell from pyramiding, which in the past was thought to occur from excessive growth. By “moist” I mean dry on the top layer, but slightly moist underneath. You can achieve this by using cypress mulch, orchid bark, or coconut coir. You can spray the substrate daily to keep it moist underneath. The heat from the light quickly dries out the top layer.
And if your top layer of substrate is drying out that quickly, you can assume that your baby tortoise is drying out quickly too. Hatchling desert tortoises should be soaked at least twice a week. Prepare a shallow pan or bowl with tepid water that will reach only up to the baby tortoise’s bridge. The bridge is the area at the side of the tortoise where the bottom shell (plastron) meets the top shell (carapace). Put your baby in the water and leave him there for about 15 minutes. You will notice that the baby voids whatever fluid he has been holding and empties his bowels. If you see a thick white substance in the urine, this is normal. It is called urates, and occurs because the tortoise has been holding in his urine, waiting for the next “rain storm.”
Swollen eyes or loose skin around the eyes may be the result of inadequate diet or the lack of Vitamin A. Your baby should be eating mostly dark leafy greens such as escarole, endive, turnip greens, carrot greens, kale, romaine, mustard, etc. It is perfectly alright to also feed (in addition to the greens, not to the exclusion of the greens) grated veggies such as carrots, zucchini, bell pepper, broccoli, crook-neck squash or any of the squashes. You should break the greens up into small pieces then place the grated veggies on top of the greens, then sprinkle *Salad style hay and *TNT over the top.
You may wonder why I don’t encourage you to use sand or dirt as your substrate, when in the wild, these animals live on sand, dirt or gravel. You may think you would be duplicating a natural situation in captivity, when in fact, the effort is very unnatural and detrimental to the captive. Tortoises feeding in the wild are not exposed to food items that are dropped on the ground while still moist as in captivity, nor are they ingesting large quantities of debris with their daily feedings. When a wild tortoise eats in his world, he is biting plant material off a stem or blade which is up off the ground. And his meal us usually dry, not wet on the outside. When a person places a hatchling on sand, this substrate sticks to the food and is consumed during feeding. This eventually causes the death of the baby due to impaction.
*TNT = Total Nutrition for Tortoises and
*Salad style hay both can be purchased from
www.carolinapetsupply.com

Good luck with your babies...and as soon as weather permits, get them outside in the sunshine.

Yvonne

 

[Corwin]

Here is a copy of the care sheet I hand out when I adopt out the baby desert tortoises:
-snip-

WOW, that answered so many questions, thanks!

I am curious as to how big a container i should get, it is not mentioned int your handout, the biggest tote style they have at the local walmart is about 3feet x 2feet and about 2 feet deep. i dont know about the under-the-bed style, will go look tonight

in one care handbook i found, spinach is listed as a food not to feed, should we stop feeding it, or does that fall under your 'dark leafy greens'

yay for solid information on substrates, i will see if the reptile shop carries any of those as for the food additives, is there anything i can get either locally or in a chain store to hold me until we receive those you listed?

you mention light, but no mention of the need for daylight or noother than your last comment, do you have additional info on the need for daylight/UVB?

thanks again!

-Ben

 

[Jentortmom]

I'm in AZ as well and yes people breed there captive DT's, that is how I acquired mine. You can use the big rubbermaid tote it will be big enough for right now. I keep mine in a wood box that is 5'x2' and they don't use more then half of it right now. At one end you need a heat lamp and a uvb lamp. You need to give them calcium to keep there shells hard. For hides I use half logs or a cheaper route I go to the dollar store and buy colored plastic rectangles and circle containers and cut a hole in them, then use the lids to feed them on. As for hibernating, I never hibernate a tort unless I have had it in my care for at least a year. I don't plan on hibernating my yearlings until they are 4 or 5 years old. When you plan your outdoor enclosure, make sure it is predator proof, and put in a spot in your yard that gets morning sun and afternoon shade and have lots of hides. This winter I am actually going to make new outdoor hides by making a man made burrow. But fake rocks with a hole cut in the side work great as hides and in the winter it helps keep it warmer in there as the sun beats on the rocks. To prevent them from hibernating once it gets to 65 degrees or so outside, bring them in and just take them outside on warm days. Another thing that is really important is natural sunlight, so this winter try and take them outside as much as possible, even if it is 5-10 minutes a day, but if it is cloudy and cold I would keep them in. I don't take mine out if it is below 60 degrees or if it is overcast. If your house gets cold at night you will need to put a red or blue heat bulb on at night so they can stay warm. Another important factor don't allow them by other types of torts as they can become sick. Good Luck!!

 

[Corwin]

100$ later



here is the new 'terarium' it has a peat moss substrate (the guy at the store said it was much less dusty than coconut grounds and would be less likely to cause respiratory dis-orders, this is the one store i trust, they are amazing with their fish)

i am currently using a plate for the water dish/bathing dish, it has maybe a 1/4" of water in it, and when i soaked the little buggers earlier their nose ridge definitely rose above the water line by about 1/4" too so it should be safe right?




i got a large lamp, and 2 bulbs, the red heat bulb for night, and the UVB/UVA heat bulb (apparently combo) for day-time (i will be switching them daily). i have a thermometer that is going to sit under the hotlamp all night so i see what temperatures i am getting there.



i still have to figure out how i am going to cover the thing so the cats don't think they have a new litter box :/ lol (any ideas? we have window screen, but it is really stiff and mostly non-see through)

as for hidey spots, being a potter/ceramicist by trade/majoring, it shall be easy for me just to make some. the ones in the picture are 3 or 4 year old ones that were in a fish tank, they used to look alot nicer ;p

i am trying to grow alfalfa (ive only ever grown the sprouts before) grass for the little buggers in another container too!

 

[Jentortmom]

www.turtlecafe.com sells a special blend of seed just for desert tortoises, you might want to try that. My baby DT's don't eat a lot of grass and I don't give alfalfa to any of my torts do to high protein. Turtlecafe also sells optunia cactus and fruit.

 

[Yvonne G]

Spinach is not good to feed as a staple. Spinach binds the calcium to it and the calcium is excreted with the waste. The occasional feeding of spinach...say, once a week...is ok.

Alfalfa also is not good to feed tortoises. It contains too much protein and is hard on their kidneys.

An easy way to provide dark, leafy greens is to buy the packaged greens at the grocery store. I buy Spring Mix. This is a mixture of baby greens and is well-accepted by tortoises. You can also feed them Mullberry leaves and grape leaves.

The container you bought is fine. I'm not so sure of the substrate, though. It seems to me that this would be too acidic. The way to keep the coconut husk from being too dusty is to mix it 50/50 with either top soil or play sand. And keeping it sprayed with water also keeps it from being dusty.

Yvonne

 

[Corwin]

thanks again guys:

ok we will refrain from any more spinach, and i wont bother with the alfalfa. we grow mallow bush in our yard, i know that is a native food of thiers in the wild would that be good for them?

i will buy some proper leafy greens tonight or tomorow for them.

about the substrate, i have no idea as to its acidity, but the store i got them at keep all their reptiles in this stuff with no issues, the also spray it down daily. but i will switch it if you all think it is better to use.

just as an aside i use peat-moss myself in the aquarium for diferent reasons, but it honestly does not lower the Ph much, i used maybe 4 gallons of it, as a planted substrate for my 55 gallon, and the ph is only .2 lower than my other tanks. to really use peat moss to lower Ph, one must filter water through it constantly and then change every 2 weeks, that usually lowers the ph by .7~1 unit. the biggest advantage of peat-moss is to get a blackwater look, which creates a rather dark murky tank with no bad side effects to the fish, though that requires much more peat-moss than what i used.

 

[Yvonne G]

I don't have any personal experience in using the peat moss, so if it works for you, go for it. Mallow is supposed to be a pretty good food for tortoises. But the key to a healthy diet is variety. Don't get stuck on feeding the same thing over and over.

Yvonne

 

[Maggie Cummings]

thanks again guys:

ok we will refrain from any more spinach, and i wont bother with the alfalfa. we grow mallow bush in our yard, i know that is a native food of thiers in the wild would that be good for them?

i will buy some proper leafy greens tonight or tomorow for them.

about the substrate, i have no idea as to its acidity, but the store i got them at keep all their reptiles in this stuff with no issues, the also spray it down daily. but i will switch it if you all think it is better to use.

just as an aside i use peat-moss myself in the aquarium for diferent reasons, but it honestly does not lower the Ph much, i used maybe 4 gallons of it, as a planted substrate for my 55 gallon, and the ph is only .2 lower than my other tanks. to really use peat moss to lower Ph, one must filter water through it constantly and then change every 2 weeks, that usually lowers the ph by .7~1 unit. the biggest advantage of peat-moss is to get a blackwater look, which creates a rather dark murky tank with no bad side effects to the fish, though that requires much more peat-moss than what i used.

The fact that the pet shop uses that substrate is reason enough not to use it (I don't like pet shops)
I would use bed a beast mixed with sand or orchid bark. You would keep it moist...hence no dust. Yvonne gave you the best advice available, except that I think you need to cut the spring mix to baby mouth sizes. I have hatchlings regularly and I always cut the grocery greens up small. I also go out and collect dandelions, and grape leafs and mulberry leafs and various blossoms like Hibiscus and mix all that with the grocery store greens. I call it my tortoises salad. Then over all that I sprinkle chopped up hay. Locally grown grass hay is what I use. I cut it so it's almost dust (sorta) and sprinkle it over the food. I sprinkle more and make bigger pieces as they grow. I have 6 hatchlings right now and today I just fed them some clover and cut grass and grape leafs. There's nothing left in their habitat now. I love to see that. I love it when all 6 eat and I'm not sweating a sick hatchling.
Congrats...(I think) on your parents animals.<g>
You really will have so much fun with them. Hatchlings of any species are fun...Desert torts are especially cute...I'll attach a picture of one I used to have,
the cutest butt ever!!!

 

[Corwin]

wow guys, thanks for the quick replies,

the torts apparently moved Alot today, my mom said one fo the two was moving in circles under the heat/UVB lamp when she left for work the other moved while we were away. and apparently the heat made them hungry, they ate 4 leaves of spinach between this morning and now when i came home (sorry at the time i was not aware of the fact that spinach was not too good)

foodwise it is going to have to be mallow until the weekend likely i might be able to grab some tomorow depeding on circumstances :/ , i leave for work before the sun rises and get home from school after the sun sets on all days. unless basil, mint, parsley and other such herbs do the trick (i grow them) my mom has some hibiscus too. . . actually i just planted 2 more for her on sunday, so i can get some of those leaves?

we dotn have any dandelions in our grass, but i know where to get some this weekend if they are alive this late in the year

grass hay we an make ourselves we have a nice patch of grass we cute every couple weeks, i usually add the grass to the compost, but i can make hay out of it too. we don't use any chemicals (except di-hydrogen monoxide [water lol]) in our yard either so it should be safe?

the food additives will be ordered this weekend most likely (when i can sit with the folks and explain all this stuff to them)

i will keep the peat moss for now, maggie i know you dont like pet stores, but this one in my experience is really good, they would not sell some fish (piranahs) to a gentleman because he only had a 10 gallon among many other things (the quarantine sick fish and wont sell them, they dont stock incompatible species in the same tanks, their tanks are properly maintained with daily 50% water changes, etc etc) fishwise these guys are the bomb, and the only other thing than fish they do is reptiles, which is half the store almost, so i shall assume they use the moss for a good reason. but just in case, what signs should i be looking for if it is bad for the turtles and/or too acidic?

@maggie's apparent confusion . . . the torts are my mom's, but i am caring for them. . . as for the congrats, i don't mind taking care for them (otherwise they would die and i can't stand that) as long as my mom is footing all the bills cause i cant afford these buggers! and though they do make life that much busier . .. what with 5 aquariums running and 2 four year old cats that still act like twerp kittens lol, going to school full time and workign part-time. . . tis busy busy time, i am glad i gave my lovebirds to a good home and that we do not have a dog at the moment, though my dad *really* wants one ><"! they are still really cute and cool critters.

cool pics to all of you who posted btw

 

[Maggie Cummings]

wow guys, thanks for the quick replies,

the torts apparently moved Alot today, my mom said one fo the two was moving in circles under the heat/UVB lamp when she left for work the other moved while we were away. and apparently the heat made them hungry, they ate 4 leaves of spinach between this morning and now when i came home (sorry at the time i was not aware of the fact that spinach was not too good)

foodwise it is going to have to be mallow until the weekend likely i might be able to grab some tomorow depeding on circumstances :/ , i leave for work before the sun rises and get home from school after the sun sets on all days. unless basil, mint, parsley and other such herbs do the trick (i grow them) my mom has some hibiscus too. . . actually i just planted 2 more for her on sunday, so i can get some of those leaves?

we dotn have any dandelions in our grass, but i know where to get some this weekend if they are alive this late in the year

grass hay we an make ourselves we have a nice patch of grass we cute every couple weeks, i usually add the grass to the compost, but i can make hay out of it too. we don't use any chemicals (except di-hydrogen monoxide [water lol]) in our yard either so it should be safe?

the food additives will be ordered this weekend most likely (when i can sit with the folks and explain all this stuff to them)

i will keep the peat moss for now, maggie i know you dont like pet stores, but this one in my experience is really good, they would not sell some fish (piranahs) to a gentleman because he only had a 10 gallon among many other things (the quarantine sick fish and wont sell them, they dont stock incompatible species in the same tanks, their tanks are properly maintained with daily 50% water changes, etc etc) fishwise these guys are the bomb, and the only other thing than fish they do is reptiles, which is half the store almost, so i shall assume they use the moss for a good reason. but just in case, what signs should i be looking for if it is bad for the turtles and/or too acidic?

@maggie's apparent confusion . . . the torts are my mom's, but i am caring for them. . . as for the congrats, i don't mind taking care for them (otherwise they would die and i can't stand that) as long as my mom is footing all the bills cause i cant afford these buggers! and though they do make life that much busier . .. what with 5 aquariums running and 2 four year old cats that still act like twerp kittens lol, going to school full time and workign part-time. . . tis busy busy time, i am glad i gave my lovebirds to a good home and that we do not have a dog at the moment, though my dad *really* wants one ><"! they are still really cute and cool critters.

cool pics to all of you who posted btw

I'm not confused about anything...I said "congrats on your parents animals...
I'm sorry...

 

[Corwin]

ah, my apologies then, i took the "i think" you added after the congrats as confusion. . . this is why the internets suck sometimes, some things just dont come across or come across badly.

 

[Maggie Cummings]

I so totally agree with that!!! No apology necessary.

 

[Corwin]

ty for understanding maggie

i got the spring mix today, and chopped some up along some mallow and a lone dandelion i found in our grass (w00t for flashlights). .

they moved during the day, is it normal for them to try and burrow in the substrate? one is burrowed under one of the caves, only the shell is showing, another is burrowed near the light, again, only the shell showing?

they didnt seem to like the mallow i put in last night, but most of the escarole was gone, only one tuft in the cold side of the habitat was left un-touched.

the heat from the light evaporates the water quickly i filled up this morn and it was gone when i got home. . should i move the container to the 'cold side' so the water wont evaporate? (the torts seem to stick to the warm side only)

i wish they would move more often i get so scared thinking they died, though this morn one of the buggers was uber active, neck stretched out of its shell all the way, trying to climb the enclosure walls! it was standing tall and everything. usually the just bundle all appendages close to them, stay real low to the ground and rarely let their necks stretch. . . is this normal?

---

sorry for the double post, i am past the diting limit

if i get the TNT and the salad style hay, will i need to get any other supplements (calcium or vitamin) or will those 2 cover it all? if i need to get others, which ones?

thanks again!

-Ben

 

[Corwin]

oh sheesh triple post, when i get the TNT do i get it with or without the "probiotics"?

 

[Maggie Cummings]

ty for understanding maggie

i got the spring mix today, and chopped some up along some mallow and a lone dandelion i found in our grass (w00t for flashlights). .

they moved during the day, is it normal for them to try and burrow in the substrate? one is burrowed under one of the caves, only the shell is showing, another is burrowed near the light, again, only the shell showing?

they didnt seem to like the mallow i put in last night, but most of the escarole was gone, only one tuft in the cold side of the habitat was left un-touched.

the heat from the light evaporates the water quickly i filled up this morn and it was gone when i got home. . should i move the container to the 'cold side' so the water wont evaporate? (the torts seem to stick to the warm side only)

i wish they would move more often i get so scared thinking they died, though this morn one of the buggers was uber active, neck stretched out of its shell all the way, trying to climb the enclosure walls! it was standing tall and everything. usually the just bundle all appendages close to them, stay real low to the ground and rarely let their necks stretch. . . is this normal?

---

sorry for the double post, i am past the diting limit

if i get the TNT and the salad style hay, will i need to get any other supplements (calcium or vitamin) or will those 2 cover it all? if i need to get others, which ones?

thanks again!

-Ben

---

Mallow is one of the things they should eat, so continue offering it. This is what I do...I wake the babies up at the same time every morning trying to establish a routine with them. I put them in for a warm soak that lasts about 10 to 15 minutes. That hydrates them and wakes them up. Then I place them right in front of the food with their faces in it kinda. Then I stand back where they can't see me and I make sure they are eating. If one just walks away I put them back in the food. If I have one that's not eating I take a piece of radiccio and sort of fan it's face with it. If they are trying to walk away I fan some more. Radiccio is red and they usually will jump on something red. I put the wandering one back in front of the food several times before I give up. We will deal with a tort not eating later if you have that problem.
I feed my hatchlings in the morning and in the evening and I soak them every morning.
I sprinkle TNT (I think TNT IS the probiotics) over the food 3 times a week. I keep a cuttlebone in the tank at all times. Some people scrap off the backing but I don't and I've not ever had a tort get cut.
They are most active in the morning and evening that's why I feed the way I do.
Yes, they burrow and they are used to spending the day in the burrow that's why yours are not active during the day...mostly.
I think now I have answered all your questions and I hope I have helped you some. I am very proud to see you trying so hard to do good by these torts, Great job!

 

[Corwin]

thanks for the quick answers yet again!

i will try out your technique ritual for the morning, my evening ritual fits with yours however . this way i will be able to tell for sure if they are eating or not. . . well i know at least one is eating as food disappears daily/nightly. cuttle bone will be easy to get ill get it this weekend most likely and i have radicchio in the spring mix i bought

good to know that the burying habit is natural! that reassures some! same with the fact they are not moving too much after the morning.

one more question for now:

you say TNT *is* the probiotics, but on the website offered by Yvonne i have an option between TNT with and without probiotics. from your response can i assume i should order the stuff with the probiotics?

 

[Corwin]

after some careful observation today, i noticed that the one who does not move around as much barely uses her/his back left leg, and it is almost always sticking out at the same angle (angle looks natural other than the fact that the leg rarely moves), he/she will move it now and then but very little! the tort keeps its other leg at the same angle but that one is used when walking and moves much more frequently does this make sense? i know the day my mom went to pick them up they were being handled by two young 7 year olds (namely my sibling and her friend) having been told at the time by the owners it was perfectly ok, so it could have been hurt then, or it could be a birth defect?

will this heal itself naturally (i would hope that it does which i would prefer. . . haven't been to see a doctor in 6 years now)

 

[longbeachskunk]

after some careful observation today, i noticed that the one who does not move around as much barely uses her/his back left leg, and it is almost always sticking out at the same angle (angle looks natural other than the fact that the leg rarely moves), he/she will move it now and then but very little! the tort keeps its other leg at the same angle but that one is used when walking and moves much more frequently does this make sense? i know the day my mom went to pick them up they were being handled by two young 7 year olds (namely my sibling and her friend) having been told at the time by the owners it was perfectly ok, so it could have been hurt then, or it could be a birth defect?

will this heal itself naturally (i would hope that it does which i would prefer. . . haven't been to see a doctor in 6 years now)

I'm not sure what it would be, but your post reminded me of this post from the other day:

click here

The tortoise might have been mishandled and injured.