3 of 3 leopard hatchlings dead - what went wrong?

[JBurer]

15 years ago the babies weren't bombarded with humidity. I bet they would've died if they had and you kept lower temp. sand is usually involved when impactions have occured...you got lucky? This forum is here to inform/nitpick to stop stoppable freak accidents like Tipping hazards such as ramps or steep water bowls, or 'bad' soil that may be ingested causing poisoning and impaction. Just because it's used in past with no problems doesn't mean it will always be so. Do you really want to spend so much time and money and affection on and animal that up and dies on you for something that is preventable? I've been using this forum strategies on my baby m.e.p.s with no issues. They've doubled in weight from 4.5 months when I got them til now 4 months later. I keep them at 90% humidity with a minumum of 75F(mine are meps which require milder temps). I soak them nightly in 85f water and feed them immediately after. They are voraciuos eaters. Temps in aftrica...did you take into account that wild tortoises burrow when it gets colder at night? I don't doubt that the daytime sun warms the soil deep enough that when they go under for the evening it's still warm in the am. They can't burrow in a box. I really feel that, alone, any one of the issues that have been brought up(low humidity, coil bulb, etc) wouldn't have resulted in a dead baby but maybe taking them all together was too much. These methods are working for us. You should devote yourself to trying it. You may find that it's really fun creating a closed chamber environement. I had a blast! Sorry for the loss of the babies. Good luck with the sick one. Enjoy your new ones.

Absolutely agree with you, Teresa. All of those items you mentioned are sub-optimal for a thriving Leopard tortoise.

In my case, I had 100% mortality and am trying to zero in on the cause.

 

[Tidgy's Dad]

I don't keep leopards, but yeah, the care sheets suggest basking temps of 100-105 and ambient temp in the enclosure between 80 - 90 with a minimum of 75.
But as I say, I have no personal experience of leopards, just chimed in for the ground temps v ambient temps in Africa, cos that I do know.

 

[JBurer]

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/leopard-tortoise-care-sheet.63792/ I believe it says 105 at hottest at basking. 90is on low side i would suspect. These temps with high humidity...ummm yum.
Ok that was a bit weird. LOL

Thanks again, Teresa.
The 105 temp must surely be a ground temp (?) and not ambient

I'm getting about 100 right under the light... and typically see the tortoises themselves holding between 90-95 degrees before they leave

 

[Yvonne G]

Teresa, I definitely don't doubt Tom's advice is good. I've read enough of his other posts to get that general sense.

That said, for this purpose I'm primarily focusing on what can cause 100% mortality in 3 months... and less on what is the optimum temp, humidity, etc.

I think I mentioned it in my response, but here it goes again: The light causes a painful condition on the eyeball similar to snow-blindness. This causes the baby to keep his eyes closed and pretty soon they become stuck shut. A baby with closed eyes stops eating and all the other problems that happened after that stem from him not eating - no calcium absorption (soft shell), lethargy, eventual death.

 

[Tom]

1. We've had the conversation about what happens in the wild (Or what we perceive happens based on data from 2 meter high weather monitoring stations placed who knows where...) vs. what actually, factually happens in captivity right in front of our eyes, many times. I spent months in Cape Town South Africa and saw lots of leopards. It was really fun. It was damn cold there day and night going into fall. Warm days and cool nights otherwise. Frankly, my living room and my ranch ain't Africa. Simulating our ideas of natural temps here in captivity does not yield good results. Keeping them at the temps that I recommend, has yielded nothing but consistent good results for me. Further still, I don't let my adults that live outside get cold either. They have heated night boxes available 24/7. I keep night temps 75-80 in summer with our hot days, and I keep ambient box temps 84-86 all winter long since some days don't get very warm. See the boxes here and here:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/another-night-box-thread.88966/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/my-best-night-box-design-yet.66867/

Having said all of that. I agree that slightly low night temps is not your issue.

2. This coil bulb issue is a long term discussion here too. One issue: Not all of the bulbs are bad. Some of them are fine and seem to do no harm. They aren't very effective for UV, but they do no harm. No one can tell if the bulb sitting on the shelf is one of the few bad ones, or one of the harmless ones. Because of this, they are best avoided. Even with out this eye-burning issue, they are not effective UV sources anyway, so says my Solarmeter 6.5.

3. In many of these cases (if this is in fact one of "these" cases...) it is not about what the current keeper did or does. It is about what the breeder did or didn't do in the days and weeks right after hatching. Did he soak daily? Every other? Once a week? Did they live on rabbit pellets or something damp? Kept warm at night or room temp? DId he use a brooder box or leave them in the incubator for a week while they absorbed their yolk sacs? Did he incubate them on vermiculite or perlite? Did they have access to a suitable (suitable to the tortoises) water bowl? Etc...

All things considered here, I think Yvonne has nailed it again. I think that bulb might be the main source of your problem.

 

[Tom]

@JBurer , Do you still have the bulb? Hang on to it. We are trying to get one tested so we can see exactly what the issue is. We see the result of the issue, but to this day no one can say exactly what the issue is. A strong suspect is UVC leakage due to micro cracks in the phosphor coating that happen during shipping.

@zenoandthetortoise Can you jump in here? Do you still have the testing machinery available? I'll pay for shipping if need be.

 

[teresaf]

I don't know if it would help but a necropsy by a tortoise vet may be your only option to narrow down a specific reason of death but even then they may just give data like kidney failure, calcium deficiency, etc... but what caused these things may have to still be guessed at. If the frailty of hatchlings worries you in future might i suggest buying slightly older ones? From a source here on the forum maybe? You would have plenty of reviews (good or bad) from members when you choose a seller. @Yvonne G I totally agree. I think the bulb was the start of it. One little bulb.

 

[JBurer]

Thanks for all the advice everyone - I greatly appreciate it.

There may be a small glimmer of hope here. The last of the 3 tortoises, which I assumed would die as of today, thus the title of this thread, appears to be turning around a bit. I've had him off the Exo Terra light for about 3 days now (part of a complete change up on the husbandry to align better with the breeder near me I acquired the other 2 tortoises from locally) and he's eating, moving around a bit more and seems to be keeping his eyes open more. He's still half as alert and mobile as the new hatchlings, but it's a marked improvement.

I have two other questions I wanted to ask of the brain trust here:

1. I went back to old skool with a UV fluorescent hood lamp, the same as the ones I used to use in the 90s. It's a Zilla Slimline Desert Fixture. My intention is for the tortoises to be outside regularly, sufficient for their sun needs 99% of the time - but I want to have something as a backup. Does anyone see a problem with this (picture attached)?

2. The breeder has told me in conversations that his hatchlings regularly have eye issues and that deep soaking is the answer, allowing them to open up and eat. Based on comments made here, am I correct to conclude that this is NOT typical, and that needing water for their eyes to open is a signal that something is wrong?

Tom - yes, I do have the bulb (pic attached with model number) and will hang onto it for as long as need be. Happy to send it out on my dime - I'd just like to be kept in the loop on any results.

Thanks Zeno. Despite sticking to the factual side on what's gone down, I've been pretty heartbroken over it all... I got these tortoises to share the joy of reptiles I had as a child with my children. One for each, named them, etc.
Best,
John

 

[Grandpa Turtle 144]

1. We've had the conversation about what happens in the wild (Or what we perceive happens based on data from 2 meter high weather monitoring stations placed who knows where...) vs. what actually, factually happens in captivity right in front of our eyes, many times. I spent months in Cape Town South Africa and saw lots of leopards. It was really fun. It was damn cold there day and night going into fall. Warm days and cool nights otherwise. Frankly, my living room and my ranch ain't Africa. Simulating our ideas of natural temps here in captivity does not yield good results. Keeping them at the temps that I recommend, has yielded nothing but consistent good results for me. Further still, I don't let my adults that live outside get cold either. They have heated night boxes available 24/7. I keep night temps 75-80 in summer with our hot days, and I keep ambient box temps 84-86 all winter long since some days don't get very warm. See the boxes here and here:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/another-night-box-thread.88966/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/my-best-night-box-design-yet.66867/

Having said all of that. I agree that slightly low night temps is not your issue.

2. This coil bulb issue is a long term discussion here too. One issue: Not all of the bulbs are bad. Some of them are fine and seem to do no harm. They aren't very effective for UV, but they do no harm. No one can tell if the bulb sitting on the shelf is one of the few bad ones, or one of the harmless ones. Because of this, they are best avoided. Even with out this eye-burning issue, they are not effective UV sources anyway, so says my Solarmeter 6.5.

3. In many of these cases (if this is in fact one of "these" cases...) it is not about what the current keeper did or does. It is about what the breeder did or didn't do in the days and weeks right after hatching. Did he soak daily? Every other? Once a week? Did they live on rabbit pellets or something damp? Kept warm at night or room temp? DId he use a brooder box or leave them in the incubator for a week while they absorbed their yolk sacs? Did he incubate them on vermiculite or perlite? Did they have access to a suitable (suitable to the tortoises) water bowl? Etc...

All things considered here, I think Yvonne has nailed it again. I think that bulb might be the main source of your problem.

Of course Yvonne is right she is always right . She's great !

 

[teresaf]

2. The breeder has told me in conversations that his hatchlings regularly have eye issues and that deep soaking is the answer, allowing them to open up and eat. Based on comments made here, am I correct to conclude that this is NOT typical, and that needing water for their eyes to open is a signal that something is wrong?

EXACTLY

 

[Tom]

I can definitely test it, but I can tell you with reasonable certainty right now what I'll find:

Ugly spikes around 550-650nm in the visible (hence the glare), and UV right at the transition from UVC -UVB, around 280nm. This equates to a1000x more damaging exposure than the 315 typical of the MVB and long tubes.

I can put all of this in one thread if helpful, buts it's going to read like a nerd manifesto.

@JBurer Very sorry for your loss.

How do you know this? So do we have definitive evidence of exactly what is going on with these bulbs now?

 

[Tom]

I have two other questions I wanted to ask of the brain trust here:

1. I went back to old skool with a UV fluorescent hood lamp, the same as the ones I used to use in the 90s. It's a Zilla Slimline Desert Fixture. My intention is for the tortoises to be outside regularly, sufficient for their sun needs 99% of the time - but I want to have something as a backup. Does anyone see a problem with this (picture attached)?

2. The breeder has told me in conversations that his hatchlings regularly have eye issues and that deep soaking is the answer, allowing them to open up and eat. Based on comments made here, am I correct to conclude that this is NOT typical, and that needing water for their eyes to open is a signal that something is wrong?

1. I use the long florescent tubes and have had no issues with them, nor have I seen anyone else have issues with them. Be aware that even the 10.0 models do not produce much usable UVB and they need to be 10-12" away for the tortoise to get any UVB benefit from them. Real sunshine a few times a week is still the best bet, but mercury vapor bulbs and the new "HO" UV bulbs give the most UVB.

2. Yes. You are correct. This is the sort of insanity that drives me crazy. The dude (or Dudette...) KNOWS he has a problem, but continues to do the same wrong thing. I'll bet big money that if I told the guy what the issue was, he would argue with me. As I said before I've hatched two dozen leopards and raised over 100 hatchlings and not a single one has ever had eye problems of any kind. I hope this breeder will listen to reason when you explain what you've learned here. Good luck.

John, its been a pleasure discussing this issue with you. You've been great to interact with. I'm so very sorry that it is under these circumstances, and I feel awful for you and your kids. Hoping for better days for you and yours in the future. The very near future.

 

[JBurer]

You know after re-reading, this could be clearer and I never finished posting all the data. I'll put together a summary of findings for the collective review.

Zeno, if you do would you please loop me in on that?
I sent the breeder your old link and would like to update him with the new info

 

[Levi the Leopard]

Reading this thread from a few years back, it suggests tortoises can survive an incident, look fine and grow but ultimately die regardless of the care. Is that still general consensus?

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/hatchling-failure-syndrome.23493/

I did not read your entire post...yet. But once I saw your repeated question in bold I wanted to respond.

I've had 10 hatchlings from a clutch come through my care. 9 died and 1 lived. They were all the "hatching failure syndrome" as described in that quoted thread.
The 1 that did survive took a looooong time to finally get growing and has just recently hit a mere 200grams at 2 years old. My properly started leopard was 4lbs at 2 years old for comparison.

So IMO and in my experience I say YES, this is still the general consensus. Some do make the hurdle over the chronic dehydration hurdle from the early days of life....many don't.
We generally refer to them as ticking time bombs. It's very unfortunate and most breeders don't like to admit that their initial care could be such a "make it or break it" case. I personally think in many cases, the good care provided in the new home, prolongs the inevitable death.

I'll keep reading your post to see if you explain how these 3 babies were cared for after hatching and before you got them.

I'm sorry you had to go through this. Too many do.

 

[Levi the Leopard]

The breeder explaining away the eye issues is just awful..... Geez.

 

[JBurer]

Just as a brief update - I spent a fair amount of time this evening speaking to the breeder.

I think he is one of the "good one's", at least seems to have a fair number of positive reviews on this forum, and was shocked to hear the bulb he was recommending on his care sheet could be a problem. He said he personally only used the Exo Terra 10.0 long lights in his operation, and recommended the compact fluorescents only to help his customers keep costs down and only after basing that decision on the uvguide.co.uk study. He said he'd look at the information I sent to him from this forum and revise the sheet immediately.

I recall us having conversations about tortoises with eyes closed and his familiarity with that, but must have assumed - since they are on the care sheet - he was using these bulbs himself. He emphatically stated no, he did not.

For full disclosure, he found some items he felt contributed to the tortoises demise in multiple emails he and I exchanged as I was trying to fit my practices to his care recommendations. These had primarily to do with my use of a reflective housing for the UVB bulb for the first 2 weeks (prior to knowing it's magnification effect on the light), my initial calcium supplement schedule (1x a week rather than every other day.. and with a Calcium jar that was a few months expired. My wife, a medical professional, continues to assure me it is completely fine, but I seriously regret that decision, even for the small amount of doubt that remains) and my soaking routine (5x a week, but with water 1/3 the shell height rather than the 1/2, "nearly drowning", level that forces them to extend their necks upward).

The soaking procedure still seems awkward to me, and I'm not convinced that or the less frequent calcium supplementation could cause this in as short as 2.5 months... but allowing the unpainted surface to magnify that bulb for the first 2 weeks was likely harmful. A lesson learned.

 

[JBurer]

The breeder explaining away the eye issues is just awful..... Geez.

I honestly don't know what to make of that. I recall our conversations fairly well and him commenting on stuck eyes being the result of not soaking the tortoises in sufficiently deep water. No link to the UVB bulb was made.

When I specifically questioned on that topic, he mentioned eye issues with freshly arrived tortoises... and it being the result of contact with the napkins he includes with the tortoise in the little enclosures they are shipped in. Tied back in a calcium deficiency being the cause for tortoises past that first day or two after arrival.

 

[Tom]

Just for the purposes of discussion: I frequently forget to use any calcium supplementation at all with hatchlings. Sometimes I'll go a week or two before remembering. This is not an issue. A good diet (grass, weeds, leaves, cactus pads, Mazuri, etc...) and regular sunshine insures adequate calcium and D3 levels in the bloodstream. I seriously doubt that your calcium supplementation routine had anything to do with this problem.

Further, I had lots of tortoises and other reptiles shipped with paper towels, shredded newspaper, and a whole host of other stuff. No eyes issues from shipping in any kind of paper based product. On the other hand, eye issues are common with dry started babies and with babies under cfl bulbs.