That was the first thing I thought - although having a damp layer underneath helps a little with the humidity, especially at ground level, I can't imagine it's more than 25% in the open area . Also, speaking of open, there isn't nearly enough cover for them to hide under either aside from the closed part. That will not only help them feel more secure but also help create more small areas of humidity.
3 of 3 leopard hatchlings dead - what went wrong?
- Thread starter JBurer
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That was the first thing I thought - although having a damp layer underneath helps a little with the humidity, especially at ground level, I can't imagine it's more than 25% in the open area . Also, speaking of open, there isn't nearly enough cover for them to hide under either aside from the closed part. That will not only help them feel more secure but also help create more small areas of humidity.
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I have 22 leopards for 15 yrs and I agree with the above . And really with get the temp above 70's the low should be above 80 .
Your feeling are understandable, but leopard babies are no more fragile than any other babies. The problem is that they are almost universally started too dry and kept chronically dehydrated in their first few critical days and weeks. Most people (breeders) don't house them or keep them heated correctly either. Many breeders also fail to use a brooder box too and this is another complication. I have never lost or had any problem with any leopard tortoise that I hatched and started my way. Not one single issue ever. That is not coincidence.
Terribly sorry to hear about your losses.
It's time now to make changes and look to the future for the others.(Which is exactly why you're here of course).
Really hoping you can save the others.
Good luck.
It's time now to make changes and look to the future for the others.(Which is exactly why you're here of course).
Really hoping you can save the others.
Good luck.
I agree 100% with your way! The two torts I have are smooth and growing amazing. The one I lost was from a breeder recommended on this site, He starts them wet, warm and humid. I have no good explanation for why it died, it didn't eat well and I couldn't get it to take calcium at all. @Tom
I agree that this enclosure needs some adjustments.
I agree that this enclosure needs some adjustments.
It just kills me to see person after person and baby tortoise after baby tortoise go through what you went through and JBurer is now going through. It is so preventable with a little added water and warmth.
I'm glad to hear you are having success now!
I've only hatched about 2 dozen leopards, but raised over 100 hatchlings. I've hatched several hundred sulcatas though and the same result. I've also used these techniques, with minor variations, for Russians and CDT hatchlings. Last, but certainly not least, I have 10 healthy and thriving Burmese stars that are also benefitting from this same care.
Hi Tom,
Not brutal at all and thanks for the detailed reply. I asked for honesty to help me prevent this from happening with future tortoises, not for a shoulder to cry on. So thank you for that.
1. Ok, that is interesting to know regarding Fife's temps. That is an easy adjustment going forward... but, that said, what I'm trying to determine is what caused catastrophic failure, not a slightly sub-optimal temperature that produces mildly poorer results. Respiratory problems would be the manifestation of temps too cold and I don't have that. Further, when I look at the Leopard Tortoises natural geographic range I note that, in the 4 regions I have data for (Dodoma, Tanzania; Serowe, Botswana; Cape Town, South Africa and Windhoek, Namibia), there is not a single month where the low temp *exceeds* 70 degrees. In fact, a majority of the months are in the 50's and 60s.
I don't disagree that a higher night time temp might be more optimal and lead to better development, but it's highly unlikely keeping them at 73 degrees caused them all to die in 3 months.
As a footnote to this point, on the breeder's own care sheet mailed with the animals it quotes:
"Night heat is not required as a night time temperature drop to upper 60's - lower 70's is beneficial in preparing the tortoise for what it will experience living outside".
2. I think you are right here. Thinking back over past conversations with the breeder, he has stated the sticky eyes issue is normal and that you address it by deep, regular and long soakings. He personally uses and recommends to his customers this Exo Terra 10.0 desert bulb (it's in his care sheet....). I believe he's not seeing catastrophic losses for several reasons - bulbs may be further away, he may have them outside more than I did, may sell the hatchlings before it becomes too much of an issue, etc.
3. I have a sensor to read humidity and it reads 48-52% in the general enclosure when I have the coir moist. Drops to 20% if I let it dry out. I haven't measured the hide, but I can tell from feel that the upside down tub, which is sitting in the dark and in wet coir at all times, is very high humidity.
I'd love to have a separate conversation about which enclosure more closely duplicates their natural environment, but want to stay focused for now on the reason for catastrophic failure. If the tortoises had the opportunity to get water at all times, to hide out in a highly humid area of the cage and that the rest of the enclosure was about 50% humidity at all times would you agree with me that we're talking about a variation from "good to OK" in the choice of enclosure versus 100% mortality?
As I mentioned in my first post, I successfully raised Leopard Tortoise hatchlings 15 years ago on play sand, in a ventilated lizard lounge aquarium inside with no real monitoring.... and they thrived.
4. I've come to this conclusion, as well... though I believe the problem is limited to the bulb used. He regularly soaks and uses moist coconut coir to achieve high humidity.
5. Agree
Much appreciate the back and forth on this. If I'm wrong on any of my counter-points, please don't be shy in telling me. Discussion is the best way for that new guy starting out to not have a bad outcome.
Best,
John
Thanks Abrams, I think you may be right there. Seems like early errors stick with these guys like little ticking time bombs. I recall this being a similar situation with Panther Chameleons I used to raise.
Teresa, I definitely don't doubt Tom's advice is good. I've read enough of his other posts to get that general sense.
That said, for this purpose I'm primarily focusing on what can cause 100% mortality in 3 months... and less on what is the optimum temp, humidity, etc.
One thing I do know is this.
If your ambient temperature is 70 degrees, then take a reading on the ground.
It will be much hotter.
If your ambient temperature is 70 degrees, then take a reading on the ground.
It will be much hotter.
Yvonne - I had to mull over it a bit, but I think you're absolutely correct. I've ditched the bulb and generally have the tortoises in a safe enclosure outside now.
As I try to raise these next guys in more optimal conditions, I'll look at higher temps and humidity for when they're indoors.
In this case I'm taking readings with a permanent wire probe and an infrared temp gun. Ground temps are low 70's at night, 75 in the hide during the day and a gradient up to about 100 in the basking spot.
Thanks Grandpa T.
I'm hearing from many that same recommendation as I discuss causes for mortality. How do you reconcile the different temp data out of Africa and their general success surviving there?
Since I've quoted it previously, I'll add the data here for discussion.
What I mean is what you have just posted.
Those books are ambient air temperature.
The ground temperature will be much hotter.
Those books are ambient air temperature.
The ground temperature will be much hotter.
15 years ago the babies weren't bombarded with humidity. I bet they would've died if they had and you kept lower temp. sand is usually involved when impactions have occured...you got lucky? This forum is here to inform/nitpick to stop stoppable freak accidents like Tipping hazards such as ramps or steep water bowls, or 'bad' soil that may be ingested causing poisoning and impaction. Just because it's used in past with no problems doesn't mean it will always be so. Do you really want to spend so much time and money and affection on and animal that up and dies on you for something that is preventable? I've been using this forum strategies on my baby m.e.p.s with no issues. They've doubled in weight from 4.5 months when I got them til now 4 months later. I keep them at 90% humidity with a minumum of 75F(mine are meps which require milder temps). I soak them nightly in 85f water and feed them immediately after. They are voraciuos eaters. Temps in aftrica...did you take into account that wild tortoises burrow when it gets colder at night? I don't doubt that the daytime sun warms the soil deep enough that when they go under for the evening it's still warm in the am. They can't burrow in a box. I really feel that, alone, any one of the issues that have been brought up(low humidity, coil bulb, etc) wouldn't have resulted in a dead baby but maybe taking them all together was too much. These methods are working for us. You should devote yourself to trying it. You may find that it's really fun creating a closed chamber environement. I had a blast! Sorry for the loss of the babies. Good luck with the sick one. Enjoy your new ones.
Temps in aftrica...did you take into account that wild tortoises burrow when it gets colder at night? I don't doubt that the daytime sun warms the soil deep enough that when they go under for the evening it's still warm in the am. They can't burrow in a box. I really feel that, alone, any one of the issues that have been brought up(low humidity, coil bulb, etc) wouldn't have resulted in a dead baby but maybe taking them all together was too much. These methods are working for us. You should devote yourself to trying it. You may find that it's really fun creating a closed chamber environement. I had a blast! Sorry for the loss of the babies. Good luck with the sick one. Enjoy your new ones.Thanks Tidgy, I missed that.
So if I temp test the tortoise and he's 90 degrees while basking, is that sufficient?
Nope, according to the data in the care sheets basking temp is supposed to be higher? Right?
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/leopard-tortoise-care-sheet.63792/ I believe it says 105 at hottest at basking. 90is on low side i would suspect. These temps with high humidity...ummm yum.
Ok that was a bit weird. LOL
Ok that was a bit weird. LOL
