A Critique of the Redfoot Care Sheet

cdmay

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Here we go @Yvonne G ....

Read that as “Yvonne, shut these people up for me.”
Classic Terry Kilgore... Make insulting innuendo of others, pseudoscientific claims, and then when confronted about such, run whining to the moderators to protect you by quieting your critics.

As for those who have demanded a Care Sheet from myself or others, I was never asked to do so. And even if I had been, I don’t know that I would. Co-write maybe, but that’s all.
Here’s why—I’m not sure I’m qualified to do so. That’s right, I don’t think I’m qualified.
Although I have kept the species for over four decades and have made them an object of study for that entire time, my experiences have all been in south Florida where I can maintain them outdoors for almost the whole year. True, I’ve raised tons of hatchlings to a few inches entirely inside my house, but otherwise I keep my animals outside.
So when in comes to keeping these tortoises indoors for longer than a year or so, that’s just not what I’ve done.

This is no way is an admission that I don’t understand their physical needs, their natural history and intimate details of their life cycle. I just am not experienced in the indoor keeping of outdoor tortoises.
There are those of you who are very successful at keeping tropical tortoises in the northern latitudes and to you I tip my hat. Really, it’s an art. But as I have limited experience in this sort of thing I won’t pretend that I do.
 

Redstrike

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In response to cdmay:

I will do my best to compile things that have worked for raising redfoots in Northeast North America, but it will rely heavily on the ideas, methods, and experiences of others. Furthermore, I will admit what I don’t know and what is anecdotal. This should be stark contrast to the currently written sheet for this reason alone. Humility and reverence for others success is more valuable to me than convicted, narrow-minded opinion that feeds ego and fails logic.

Many of these publications I linked on in the previous thread where this all began.
 

Redstrike

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In response to cdmay:

I will do my best to compile things that have worked for raising redfoots in Northeast North America, but it will rely heavily on the ideas, methods, and experiences of others. Furthermore, I will admit what I don’t know and what is anecdotal. This should be stark contrast to the currently written sheet for this reason alone. Humility and reverence for others success is more valuable to me than convicted, narrow-minded opinion that feeds ego and fails logic.

Many of these publications I linked on in the previous thread where this all began.

Further, this is well beyond my comfort level as I was never asked to do so via a moderator, nor was i seeking such a responsibility. No objection to anyone contesting my creation of a care sheet and I’m fully willing to concede to someone else.
 

Redfoot NERD

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You will get to consider all these new caresheets .

Yes.. thank you Carl for being objective. [ BTW.. why would I be threatened by another after the same purpose of caring for redfoots ? Will there be something different than balancing the 4 basic parameters.. other than mode ? ]

It brings on a new meaning to have to keep them inside almost as much as outside.. as do many here. PLUS virtually all of my writings are based on "hands-on" experience backed by the verification's of other keepers - ranging from New England / Canada and the UK.
There is one of the original 3 in the breeding program of Randall Curtis.. still making babies since 2005. She had a rough first 5 years here.. then the "Balanced Parameters" after that.
 

Yvonne G

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Further, this is well beyond my comfort level as I was never asked to do so via a moderator, nor was i seeking such a responsibility. No objection to anyone contesting my creation of a care sheet and I’m fully willing to concede to someone else.
Way back at the beginning of this thread I told anyone who would listen, if you don't like our care sheet write your own and I'll sticky it so people can choose. Just because it didn't have your personal name on it doesn't mean it wasn't intended for you or anyone else reading the post. In fact, without looking back ( too lazy) I believe I made that comment directly after one of your posts.
 

cdmay

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Further, this is well beyond my comfort level as I was never asked to do so via a moderator, nor was i seeking such a responsibility. No objection to anyone contesting my creation of a care sheet and I’m fully willing to concede to someone else.

You know something Redstrike—-and NERD....You may not believe that this is coming from me, but NERDs Care Sheet does have some good ideas. His recommendations about daily feeding and the variation in diet are pretty darn good. As I pointed out in the critique, I disagree about the amounts of food he recommends and why he feels that food should be removed after one sitting. I also completely disagree about his thoughts when it comes to lighting, but then his ideas about humid hides, the concept of NOT putting a burning heat lamp or light right over small tortoises are quite sound.
My idea would be to use NERD’s Care Sheet as a template, but correct much of the science that he injects into why he does what he does.
The Care Sheet as it currently stands needs some heavy editing and cleaning up as I think I made pretty clear. But if the baloney and erroneous scientific claims were removed it could be a very useful item.

This would of course require that Mr. Kilgore approve any corrections, editing...and the occasional slap upside his head.
I don’t know, maybe I’m crazy for even suggesting it.
What do you think?
 

Redfoot NERD

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Of course Carl - I did not do much.. if any.. 'editing' [ to ensure no misunderstandings ] before submitting. [ it's really 'stripped and simple' ]. Your opinion on scientific facts and my baloney and/or how they should be implemented indoors during winter is definitely one example.. and is your opinion. I've always maintained - as long as the "4 Parameters " are balanced.. that's what counts.
I've never been challenged by your opinion .. nor should you be challenged by mine - or should we inject any ego / emotion into the mix!

I confess in years past there has been an unfounded display of passion ( not ego ) about my beliefs.. to the point of being misunderstood about my compassion.
 

mark1

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there are obviously some very intelligent folks on this forum , actually lots of them . personally if I read someone dismiss sunlights importance to turtles and tortoises , i'm pretty much done with any advice they may have , unless they can bring some factual info I've not seen …………. I've yet to see any of these animals that do not do better outside in a proper climate , most do better outside in a marginally acceptable climate ….. the only difference being natural light cycles and sunlight . we try to reproduce optimal temps , diets , and humidity , yet someone can actually thinks light is not as important ? I also believe the ebb and flow of daylight is important to reptiles psychologically and physiologically ……… folks say if you see a turtle on the road to put him off to the side he was headed , cause if you don't they'll just cross again , I believe the reasoning is probably because they can detect electromagnetic fields , I think ultraviolet is electromagnetic radiation ? manmade electromagnetic radiation is known to disrupt bird migration , so animals can obviously sense UV , I believe some can see it ……..
 

Redstrike

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there are obviously some very intelligent folks on this forum , actually lots of them . personally if I read someone dismiss sunlights importance to turtles and tortoises , i'm pretty much done with any advice they may have , unless they can bring some factual info I've not seen …………. I've yet to see any of these animals that do not do better outside in a proper climate , most do better outside in a marginally acceptable climate ….. the only difference being natural light cycles and sunlight . we try to reproduce optimal temps , diets , and humidity , yet someone can actually thinks light is not as important ? I also believe the ebb and flow of daylight is important to reptiles psychologically and physiologically ……… folks say if you see a turtle on the road to put him off to the side he was headed , cause if you don't they'll just cross again , I believe the reasoning is probably because they can detect electromagnetic fields , I think ultraviolet is electromagnetic radiation ? manmade electromagnetic radiation is known to disrupt bird migration , so animals can obviously sense UV , I believe some can see it ……..

There are many animals that see in the ultraviolet spectrum - loads of insects and American kestrels are some that come to mind.
 

Redstrike

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You know something Redstrike—-and NERD....You may not believe that this is coming from me, but NERDs Care Sheet does have some good ideas. His recommendations about daily feeding and the variation in diet are pretty darn good. As I pointed out in the critique, I disagree about the amounts of food he recommends and why he feels that food should be removed after one sitting. I also completely disagree about his thoughts when it comes to lighting, but then his ideas about humid hides, the concept of NOT putting a burning heat lamp or light right over small tortoises are quite sound.
My idea would be to use NERD’s Care Sheet as a template, but correct much of the science that he injects into why he does what he does.
The Care Sheet as it currently stands needs some heavy editing and cleaning up as I think I made pretty clear. But if the baloney and erroneous scientific claims were removed it could be a very useful item.

This would of course require that Mr. Kilgore approve any corrections, editing...and the occasional slap upside his head.
I don’t know, maybe I’m crazy for even suggesting it.
What do you think?

I’d prefer a group effort to me writing my own. Peer-review and constructive criticism are powerful tools. Further, the group could more efficiently produce a good sheet that would be way more powerful than anyone alone (myself included) could produce.

I’d be happy to provide additional edits and writing.
 

Redfoot NERD

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Carl... sounds like you've let your 'preconceived notions' about any 'scientific-facts' statement's on my part [ within the caresheet ] to compromise the solid points of the caresheet .. that I didn't care if got published in the first place -- to the point that the others' think it's important to "build" a bigger and better one backed by "scientific-facts" alone.
Interesting because that one [ I've used for the past .. almost 15 years ].. has raised some nice looking / healthy redfoot tortoises.
 

TechnoCheese

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Alright, I decided to take the plunge and convert mine(which took three hours lol), even if to just have a more convenient way of sharing it because apparently the pictures don’t show up when I share it directly from the place it came from. I would be grateful for some criticism, even if it’s just fixing grammar! I don’t think mine would be good enough to sticky, though, seeing as I don’t keep redfoots.
https://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/redfoot-care-sheet-draft-please-critique.172510/
 

Redfoot NERD

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@cdmay -- remember sending me these ( note date ) ?



And how they looked 3 years later -- ( based on that incorrect caresheet ).

 

Madkins007

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Huh. I created a whole website to try to offer care ideas gleaned from dozens of documented sources, including scholarly journals. I know that the TortoiseLibrary.Com has struggled under new management (when I turned it over many years ago), and I often think about finding a new way to do it. I'm pretty sure I've posted 'one sheet' care sheets in the past, but I get frustrated at things like that because when you care for a redfoot or similar animal, you need to manage the entire environment for it and that usually takes some work and information.

I also wrote a review of NERDs stuff back in 2010, echoing many of CDMay's thoughts. I guess history repeats itself.

Tell you what. If someone can help take care of the tech side of it (domain name, hosting ideas, formating, etc.) I would be willing to do an updated version of the Library, even including helpful info from other people.
 

Yvonne G

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The Library's fine, Mark. It's just that we wanted something stickied, or pinned at the top of our section on RF tortoises. That's where most people look first for care info.
 
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