A guy told me there is a special wax ....

[RedfootsRule]

I did NOT conclude either way.

Peter, I cannot find any rationalization for your CONTINUED arguments here or why you are skewing my comments and others to support your arguments (ie..saying that I concluded that Vitashell has no benefit). I and others have tried to share our reasons with you, but it is dismissed and returned with the same repeated, unsupported arguments over and over and over again. I do not consider speculation support, and you admit that is all you have. Then you start making disdainful and contentious comments, such as “clearly you can’t understand”, "Yet you argue with me", or something to the effect that I’ve already made up my mind so I will ignore any evidence to the contrary and wonder why I would take offense to that. That shows me that your arguments are weak and you are completely oblivious to your conduct here.

You seem like a halfway intelligent person. Based on some of your less contentious posts, I think you may be more than that actually, which is why I participated in the discussion as much as I did. But, I can no longer take you seriously. Maybe I’m wrong though. Maybe I’m the one who is being irrational and you are a rational person and your arguments might actually make sense to others. But, I am not the first person to express frustration with you, so I hope you give some thought to what I am saying. Again, I really think you have some knowledge that could benefit the community and that I would be interested in, but until you can show respect and a little more self-awareness I cannot read another post from you.

Neal....Here's the only point I feel like re-iterating. You, nor others, have been able to make any claims on whether or not it has benefit....Basically, it has been concluded here, there IS no benefit. Yet I can reason many ways it could cause harm...Why take risks without benefit? This is what I wish people to understand. Yet, you and Tom seem to wish to continually dispute that there are harms...Well, if you are going to take risks, there must be benefit. Yet, both of you refuse to try to reason why there could be benefit; Tom even stated there is no benefit. Why are we still having this debate?
I'm a very rational person. You are to. "Expressed frustration" is an irrelevant term....I find it interested how I am deemed irrational when I'm not the one "questioning credibility", wanting to know someones age, etc. What is your logic there?
Neal, yes, I did say you concluded it had no benefit, because you never said it did, nor did you ever say it had harm, nor did you ever state any possible use for the product...You just said you used it and saw no harm.

You can't find rationalism for MY argument? My argument is to be on the safe side, because there are risks and no benefit. Yours' and Tom's argument is continually disputing any possible risk or threat it may pose, yet you are both unable to make sense of any worth or benefit the product has...Your continued argument is useless. Find a way to speculate HOW it could have benefit, (as I've asked you to 10 times), don't sit around insulting me, questioning my credibility, etc. because you can find no possible benefit and because you don't want to believe in the harms...

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

not all literature can be accessed for free, but sometimes in the abstract you can get more than a good idea of some thought process or declared points.

Abstract
Alibardi, L. 2011. Observations on the ultrastructure and distribution of chromatophores in the skin of chelonians. —Acta Zoologica (Stockholm) 00:1–11.

The cytology and distribution of chromatophores responsible for skin pigmentation in chelonians is analyzed. Epidermal melanocytes are involved in the formation of dark spots or stripes in growing shelled and non-shelled skin. Melanocytes rest in the basal layer of the epidermis and transfer melanosomes into keratinocytes during epidermal growth. Dermal melanophores and other chromatophores instead remain in the dermis and form the gray background of the skin. When dermal melanophores condense, they give origin to the dense spots or stripes in areas where no epidermal melanocytes are present. In the latter case, the epidermis and the corneous layer are transparent and reveal the dermal distribution of melanophores and other chromatophores underneath. As a result of this basic process of distribution of pigment cells, the dark areas visible in scales can have a double origin (epidermal and dermal) or a single origin (epidermal or dermal). Xanthophores, lipophores, and a cell containing both pterinosomes and lipid droplets are sparse in the loose dermis while iridophores are rarely seen in the skin of chelonians analyzed in the present study. Xanthophores and lipophores contribute to form the pale, yellow or oranges hues present among the dark areas of the skin in turtles.

They call the shell dermis "skin".

Ultrastructural and immunohistochemical observations on the process of horny growth in chelonian shells
Lorenzo Alibardi,
Department of Biology, University of Bologna, via Selmi 3, 40126 Bologna, Italy
http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.acthis.2006.02.003, How to Cite or Link Using DOI

Summary
The process of growth of horny scutes of the carapace and plastron in chelonians is poorly understood. In order to address this problem, the shell of the terrestrial tortoise Testudo hermanni, the freshwater turtle Chrysemys picta, and the soft shelled turtle Trionix spiniferus were studied. The study was carried out using immunohistochemistry, electron microscopy and autoradiography following injection of tritiated histidine. The species used in the present study illustrate three different types of shell growth that occur in chelonians. In scutes of Testudo and Chrysemys, growth mainly occurs in the hinge regions by the production of cells that accumulate beta-keratin and incorporate tritiated histidine. Newly produced bundles of alpha- and beta-keratin incorporate most of the histidine. No keratohyalin is observed in the epidermis of any of the species studied here. In Testudo, newly generated corneocytes containing beta-keratin form a corneous layer to form the growing rings of scutes. In Chrysemys, newly generated corneocytes containing beta-keratin form the new, expanded corneous layer. In the latter species, at the end of the growing season (autumn/fall), thin corneocytes containing little beta-keratin are produced underneath the corneous layer, and gradually form a scission layer. In the following growing season (spring-summer) the shedding layer matures and determines the loss of the outer corneous layer. In this way, scutes expand their surface at any new molt. In Trionix, no distinct scutes and hinge regions are present and during the growing season, new corneocytes are mainly produced along the perimeter of the shell. Corneocytes of Trionix contain little beta-keratin and form a thick corneous layer in which cells resemble the alpha-layer of the softer epidermis of the limbs, tail and neck. Neither keratohyalin nor specific histidine incorporation was observed in these cells. Corneocytes are gradually lost from the epidermal surface. Dermal scutes are absent in Trionix, but the dermis is organized in 6–10 layers of plywood-patterned collagen bundles. The stratified layers gradually disappear toward the growing border of the shell. The mode of growth of horny scutes in these different species of chelonians is discussed.

Blah blah blah

So pores vs porous. A pore is a specific structure, whereas porous is a property. I do not see pores, I see porousness.

There is no such thing as an average Joe, science is not mumbo jumbo (implying metaphysical explanations in the absence of cogent reasoning and evidence.) Having no understanding is not a stand-in for understanding. You can acknowledge that you don't know something, but that (knowing you don't know something) does not replace the knowledge you don't have.

Many aquatic chelonians get shell disease, via the permeability of there shell, I have seen this in tortoises, or rather smelled it, there was no apparent problem visible with the eye. But the odor told me it was there, and that zoo vet believed me and dealt with the issue.

And all this - is all of no value in terms of conversation/debate etc. if we don't know why someone wants to apply the vita shell or whatever in the first place. What are you seeking to accomplish? If you achieve your goal, then all else does not matter.

As an aside, it will be interesting to see if the compromised scutes of those free ranging ynips cause some problem down the road.

Will

 

[tyrs4u]

Vita Shell once a week or month depending on what outcome you want. Most just brush away things with a toothbrush and mix warm water with baby oil and go at the crevices with it..

 

[Neal]

And all this - is all of no value in terms of conversation/debate etc. if we don't know why someone wants to apply the vita shell or whatever in the first place. What are you seeking to accomplish? If you achieve your goal, then all else does not matter.

For me, raising box turtles in the AZ desert was difficult. Shells and skin would dry and crack. Even in areas where there was elevated humidity inside the enclosure, I still observed it. A friend who also raised box turtles and lived in the same area suggested Vitashell. So I tried it, and was pleased. I had observed the same thing with tortoises initially (this was when humidity was still the devil).

Sure there are other methods of obtaining the results (let's not go down that path ), and I'm sure my reasons do not make sense, but this is what I chose to do, and have no issues to report. As it stands now, this thread has given me cause to consider "why" I CONTINUE to do such a thing. Funny how routines can turn out like that. Moving forward, I intend on focusing on the "why" part.

 

[Mccrackin]

I have currently have a greek tortoise and he has a very smooth shell without the vitashell! This shows it can be kept nice looking with out using unnatural substances. Sure it may not look like all patterns come out but who needs that? I honestly think it should not be used because like many has said it clogs the pores! And some say this topic goes 50/50 but why even take the risk?

 

[RedfootsRule]

I have currently have a greek tortoise and he has a very smooth shell without the vitashell! This shows it can be kept nice looking with out using unnatural substances. Sure it may not look like all patterns come out but who needs that? I honestly think it should not be used because like many has said it clogs the pores! And some say this topic goes 50/50 but why even take the risk?

Precisely...With proper husbandry, its easy to achieve the same "results" (a.k.a shiny shell) NATURALLY....

 

[JoesMum]

I have an unpolished Greek too. The effect achieved after decades of natural wear and tear in the garden is matt rather than gloss, but it's smooth, natural and looks gorgeous.

Joe only shines in the rain and after a soak... living in the UK achieves the 'wet look' regularly

 

[Mccrackin]

Precisely...With proper husbandry, its easy to achieve the same "results" (a.k.a shiny shell) NATURALLY....

Thank you for agreeing, and a turtles would rather have not have a shiny shell covered in wax than being comfortable an have a shell that can breath.

 

[Alles uber schildkroten]

Do you guys actually have stats to prove it harms the tortoise?? If so I would like to see those tests and how they were performed.. So link it.. If not its just a bunch you speculating..

 

[RedfootsRule]

Do you guys actually have stats to prove it harms the tortoise?? If so I would like to see those tests and how they were performed.. So link it.. If not its just a bunch you speculating..

Association, buddy...How long did we use lead paint? Likewise, with tortoises, those things that could go wrong may not be seen, or they may not be associated to the usage of the product. I can give you a list of ways it COULD harm them. Probability? Couldn't tell you. Has it ever harmed them? Possibly, but it doesn't seem to have been seen.
However, can you tell me any way it can possibly have benefit? No. Shiny....Pleases their owners' eye. Thats it. "Locks in moisture" is basically crap.
I've said about twelve times, I AM speculating. I've never personally seen damage; but I'll still maintain, it can hurt them, there ARE risks, and there is NO benefit. So why use the product? Waste of money and possibility of harm....

 

[Alles uber schildkroten]

Association, buddy...How long did we use lead paint? Likewise, with tortoises, those things that could go wrong may not be seen, or they may not be associated to the usage of the product. I can give you a list of ways it COULD harm them. Probability? Couldn't tell you. Has it ever harmed them? Possibly, but it doesn't seem to have been seen.
However, can you tell me any way it can possibly have benefit? No. Shiny....Pleases their owners' eye. Thats it. "Locks in moisture" is basically crap.
I've said about twelve times, I AM speculating. I've never personally seen damage; but I'll still maintain, it can hurt them, there ARE risks, and there is NO benefit. So why use the product? Waste of money and possibility of harm....

I don't personally use it, I'm just saying I would like to see some proof it does harm.. Not just what you "think" it may or may not do...

 

[RedfootsRule]

I likewise would like to see proof it actually has a benefit, other then what we "think" it can do . Neither one of these things, however, can be provided....So why don't we be on the safe side?

 

[BowandWalter]

Walter came with a tin of Vitashell from his original owner, I touched it out of curiosity and had a raging allergic reaction. My views on it are fairly sinister because of that. I have put Ecrinal Repair Serum on his shell though, it made a noticeable difference when he was growing, all his new growth was nice and smooth, which kinda made all the crazy pyramiding look worse. He's also still beautiful and shiny under his customary mud layer almost 4 months later, it could be attributed to eating healthy organic greens instead of a hearty diet of fruit loops, or it could be that the Ecrinal did him some good, or possibly mud is a new beauty secret and we should all spend 80% of our time wallowing around whilst staring hatefully at anyone who comes near.

Without proper tests it's hard to honestly know if we should be for or against something.

 

[MrJorgensen]

Redfoots,

Your signature includes, "I recommend you do the research and make your own decision."

Allow others to do this without criticism. No one has proof, but users and nonusers have both done their own research and are making their own decisions. I don't use the product, but others have researched and decided they will. No one has to be right. Husbandry opinions are so variable that experiences will always sway tort owners. Yes, preventative care is important. Education is important. But, personal experience will trump claims that lack proof. Both sides lack proof, so experiences will win for each owner.

 

[Neal]

Redfoots,

Your signature includes, "I recommend you do the research and make your own decision."

Allow others to do this without criticism. No one has proof, but users and nonusers have both done their own research and are making their own decisions. I don't use the product, but others have researched and decided they will. No one has to be right. Husbandry opinions are so variable that experiences will always sway tort owners. Yes, preventative care is important. Education is important. But, personal experience will trump claims that lack proof. Both sides lack proof, so experiences will win for each owner.

Hands down the most prudent and level headed post on this thread.

Thank you Mr. Jorgensen

 

[jaizei]

This sure makes it look like you are calling lanolin a petroleum based wax:

If the fact that it contains a petroleum-based wax, lanolin, has the potential to trap in harmful bacteria causing shell-rot or fungus, clogs the pores and could possibly interfere with thermoregulation isn't enough then....I don't know what else to tell you.

Petroleum-based wax being the emulsifying wax. Lanolin being lanolin. I won't be responsible when you are unable to understand my posts.

If you wish to be understood, write in a clear, concise manner. I know what lanolin is. Those that don't would be thinking it is petroleum based after reading the above quote.

 

[ra94131]

To sum up this whole thread:

Proof that VitaShell works: Anecdotal
Proof that VitaShell does not work: Limited experimentation
Proof that VitaShell is harmful: None
Proof that VitaShell is not harmful: Anecdotal
Idle speculation in all directions: Rampant

I've used it, but I don't think it is really that important. I'll probably stop once Rasputin is 100% outside. I know Zamric endorses it and Walking Rock is one of the best looking adult Sulcatas I've seen and lives in the same climate/area I do.

 

[Levi the Leopard]

To sum up this whole thread:

Proof that VitaShell works: Anecdotal
Proof that VitaShell does not work: Limited experimentation
Proof that VitaShell is harmful: None
Proof that VitaShell is not harmful: Anecdotal
Idle speculation in all directions: Rampant
.

I have followed this thread from the start.
What you summed up is exactly what i have noticed.

Thanks for laying it out.

 

[bigred]

To sum up this whole thread:

Proof that VitaShell works: Anecdotal
Proof that VitaShell does not work: Limited experimentation
Proof that VitaShell is harmful: None
Proof that VitaShell is not harmful: Anecdotal
Idle speculation in all directions: Rampant

I've used it, but I don't think it is really that important. I'll probably stop once Rasputin is 100% outside. I know Zamric endorses it and Walking Rock is one of the best looking adult Sulcatas I've seen and lives in the same climate/area I do.

THANK YOU, Your right its not that important

 

[mainey34]

Wow...what a debate!..... well, I'm going to put my 2 cent's worth in. First off i would not want to be putting that argon oil on my torts. Then put them under a heat lamp..what would that do?!.....
Next..anyone who has never used vitashell really doesn't have a leg to stand on, the only thing you are going on is mearley the ingredients. Wow..is that all you got?
I have been using vitashell on my sulcata since i got her back in april. When i got her she had some pyramiding. I started applying vitashell weekly, along with daily soaks and proper humidity and temps. Eventually after 3 months i applied 1 time a month. I noticed a big change with her pyramiding. I believe that vitashell had a hand in this.
Now im not promoting vitashell, but i am using this product and i do not see any problems with it. Their shells are somewhat like our fingernails. Put some on your fingernails, see what happens. (OH, AND I DONT SLATHER IT ON...I PUT A LIGHT COAT ON AND WIPE EXCESS OFF WITH A CLEAN DRY CLOTH! )
As far as newbies go, they can judge which route they will go, there are so many different opinions anyway..
I dont understand why it is everyone always is quick to jump at Tom. Is it because he has more knowledge? He has done his homework? Or are you just plain jealous? My opinion, he is a pretty smart guy. I dont know him, but i read everything he posts. The things he posts makes sense..
Oh, 1 more thing. I adopted a redfoot that has pyramiding...im going to start an experiment..im going to take pictures..start using vitashell...lets see what happens...YA?!?!?!