A guy told me there is a special wax ....

[ra94131]

Basically, to further sum it up:
Its recognized that its not important, recognized (more or less) that there is no benefit, yet we will continuously argue with my opinion of being on the safe side, even though this would usually be universally correct, because a large amount of the people here are part of the "Tom worshippers". Excuse me for believing there is some biased opinion here .

Your point of being on the safe side is very well taken. That leaves people to judge the product based on their own experience and that of those whose opinion they respect. For many of us there is no evidence of any danger and both the benefit/lack of benefit is unproven so we see no harm in using the product and a potential upside, however minimal.

 

[Cowboy_Ken]

Oh, 1 more thing. I adopted a redfoot that has pyramiding...im going to start an experiment..im going to take pictures..start using vitashell...lets see what happens...YA?!?!?![/QUOTE]

For the experiment to be proper, one would need four.
One for the shell stuff and husbandry the same as before you got it.
One for the shell stuff and better husbandry.
One with no shell stuff and the same husbandry.
One with no shell stuff and better husbandry.
I us nothing on the shells other than water. If I had a hankering to use something, it would be on the line of fresh aloe gel.

 

[Jacqui]

Okay Yvonne had cleaned up this thread, deleting 25 posts she rules as unallowable. I am putting this thread back into debate, but please remember to debate the topic not each other. Let's not force us to do more of the evil delete, as we Mods hate to have to do them.

 

[yagyujubei]

Well, I learned my lesson. I will no longer post in the debate section.

 

[BowandWalter]

Huh, I'd wondered why it had disappeared!

 

[Madkins007]

Well, I learned my lesson. I will no longer post in the debate section.

Dennis- this cannot be new or surprising to you. Debate is allowed, encouraged, and fun... as long it stays civil. Heck- the mods here allow a LOT of garbage to go on that I would not if I ran the site.

---

I am SO happy to learn that some posts were deleted! I was seriously troubled at some of the stuff I was reading here.

1. It took over 100 posts for someone to challenge the comment "...it contains a petroleum-based wax, lanolin, has..." Lanolin comes from sheep's wool, for crying out loud. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lanolin)

2. I have yet to see anyone challenge the comment "They stopped using Vaseline on babys (sic) largely several years ago BECAUSE of the petroleum-based wax in it...Doesn't that tell you something?" And yet- 100% Vaseline Jelly for babies is sold in pretty much every store in the US and there does not seem to be much of an on-line outcry against it. (http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001ECQ4TO/?tag=exoticpetnetw-20 )

3. It took too many pages for anyone to finally point out that being porous is different than having biologically active pores, like sweat glands. There IS NO CLINICAL OR SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE THAT TORTOISE SHELLS BREATHE OR CAN ABSORB NUTRIENTS OF ANY KIND. Moisturizing the shell does not hydrate the tortoise, and you cannot 'deep condition' dead tissue- whether it is hair or keratin. Remember- one of the most basic definitions of a reptile is that it has WATERPROOF skin. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reptile, section 3.4 'Skin')

4. Compare the ingredients of Vitashell to any plain white cheap hand lotion- they are basically the same thing. Tell me how the heck something that humans- with our truly porous skin- slather all over ourselves and our babies is supposed to harm a shell that is basically fingernails, especially when I bet 80% of it rubs off in less than 4 hours?

5. It is one thing to claim an opinion ("I believe that Vitashell may be harmful/beneficial because..."), but if you are going to make a statement of fact ("Vitashell IS harmful/beneficial because...") then you need to prove it. And an article posted at an otherwise good site but one that does not offer citations or references simply does not count.



So, to answer the OP (who I bet stopped reading this a LONG time ago)- the stuff is called Vitashell, and it is basically hand lotion with the same basic benefits and risks. Some people really like it, some really hate it, but most of us just don't really bother with it too much. If you want to try it, save yourself some money and try either a very thin layer of olive oil or any plain, white hand lotion.

 

[Edna]

Peter,
When I reread your "wax, lanolin, and..." statement I did understand that you were including lanolin as a substance in a list of ingredients. On my first quick read, no such luck.
Research doesn't result in "proof." It results in evidence supporting or not supporting a hypothesis. It is not generally a bad thing to ask for evidence, and anyone making a claim should be prepared to provide it.

 

[Hustler]

Wow.....I just fell on this tread...... Thanks Madskins for that last post..... saved me 9 pages to read.
Ive seen a few people using olive oil with good result years later but the fact they put that much thought into the tortoises shell makes it impossible to say that was "proof" as they took better care of the tortoise than most people seem to and the shells would have stayed smooth anyways.

 

[mainey34]

Cowboyken, unfortunately i don't have that many torts to do a "scientific" experiment. I started "lathering" my Redfoot yesterday with vitashell. I took pics of before. And i will be keeping notes and pics and am following specific directions per vitashell ..

 

[Jacqui]

(From mod Yvonne: Any posts that are not on topic will be deleted, and that includes posts making explanations of other posts. If you have more to say OT, then take it to the PM. Your stance on lanolin was explained by Edna and needed no more explanation)

I can only say it was not me, so I can't give you the reason. However (and this is for anybody) if you have or see a thread which you thinks needs for a Mod to look at, by all means either report the thread or send the Mods a note. Believe it or not, we don't have time to constantly be checking all threads. We need help and feedback from the general membership when a problem starts happening.

 

[Zamric]

If the fact that it contains a petroleum-based wax, lanolin, has the potential to trap in harmful bacteria causing shell-rot or fungus, clogs the pores and could possibly interfere with thermoregulation isn't enough then....I don't know what else to tell you.

Sorry I missed this thread till now!
I am a BIG advocate of Vita-Shell and I have tried to read this thread all the way through so I don't sound dumb by repeating facts already brought forth.

This one I canot ignore!

Redfootsrule,

If your entire point of Vita-shell being bad because it has a Petroleum based wax called "Lanolin" then you can rest easy, Lanolin is derived from wool, not petroleum.

I will continue reading from this point, so if this fact was already brought up... I'll probably do it again before I finish the next 5 pages!

 

[Yvonne G]

Redfootsrule was only listing ingredients. Lanolin was not supposed to be in the petroleum category.

 

[Zamric]

Can you show me a tortoise that has has the product used weekly on it for years? Doubt it.

Meet WalkingRock. He's almost 13 years old now. He gets Vita-shell EVERYTIME he starts a Growth Cycle....ever since his hatching!

 

[RedfootsRule]

Zamric,
Lanolin is definitely derived from wool....Petroleum-based wax is the Emulsifying Wax NF (which is in the ingredients, if you've ever bothered to read them...) And no, that is not at all my only point.
But I'm sure this post will be deleted, as its explaining another one of my posts, and apparently there is a rule for that, even though it has not been posted in the forum guidelines, nor was it in the agreement we all put the check next to when we make an account.
I don't understand how so many people thought that they could use against me what they themselves could not understand...I suggest re-enrollment in high-school level grammar, as this is just getting old.
You may think what you posted of WalkingRock is evidence...But due to your posts, its obvious you are a major supporter of the product. You have no documented evidence that it WAS used as often as you describe. Your husbandry tactics would have to be picked apart, to examine and see if there was another reason. Just like Tom's "experiment", which I attribute to the humidity, as this has been shown to stop pyramiding. So, its invalid.
Am I accusing you of being a liar? Certainly not. But that is not evidence. It's an anecdote, and I find it highly unlikely that you JUST NOW decided to post all of this, as if you didn't see this thread before. Just about anyone could post a picture of a large sulcata and say "I've been slathering them daily since birth!"
But I digress,
If you wish to slather and smother your tortoise with a totally unnatural wax, while being completely oblivious and ignorant of any possible side-effect it may have (regardless of the likelihood of those side-effects occurring), with no possible benefit occurring, taking risk without reason, then go right ahead. I've been posting through this entire thread to try to make sure people cared for their tortoises properly; I did this on the premise that people actually cared what was best for their tortoise, not what was best to please them. Sadly, I appear to be mistaken. Risk should not be taken without benefit, absolutely regardless of the likelihood of those risks occurring. But surprisingly, that stance can be argued left, right, up, down, and wherever else we can lead it that ends up in an insult-hurling slap-fight. I was not aware the "be on the safe side" stance could be argued; I'm truly mistaken. The only reason I can think of for arguing....Is for the sake of arguing. We all love that, don't we now?
My opinion in a nut-shell. Take it, or leave it; do whats best for your tortoise, or slather them and do whats best for you. In the end, YOU are the care-taker. This is your decision. The point of MY posts was to try to lead owners to the right decision, or at least make them aware of the risk. If the risk is not a considerate for you, if you rather do whats best for YOU....Then perhaps you need to re-think your ability to care for an animal.

This will be my last post...Insult me, discredit me, slander and berate me. Delete it, if you wish, regardless of the fact it violates no rules. It is my opinion.

 

[Zamric]

Neal,
You have missed it before...I said that about (8?) times.
Hopefully we can find some evidence for harm, benefit, etc., eventually. If you breed leopards, you should try what I said. Assuming you follow the humid theory, then raise one in a low humidity setting and use vita-shell...See what happens.

I am a big fan of Vita_shell just for this reason! Walkingrock (did I mention him yet?) was NOT raised in a "High Heat, High humidity" enviroment... he was raise by children in a classrom. Vita-Shell was the only treatment he had for his shell and till he got to big to cover his whole shell (not cost effective) he got a weekly treatment of Vita-shell! You might notice, he has very little pyramiding for a tortoise the weighs a little over 110 lbs.
I am Currently raising 2 Leopards under the "High Heat, High Humidity" system and they also get Vita-shell weekly. They are a year old and show 0% signs of pyamiding.

---

I likewise would like to see proof it actually has a benefit, other then what we "think" it can do . Neither one of these things, however, can be provided....So why don't we be on the safe side?

Benefits? It helps keep the scute "cuticles" conditiond, just like human nails.when there is not enough humidity in the air they dry out. Vita-shell conditions the cuticle and the scute grows true.

Is that a "Real" benefit? I would say "YES"! is it done for purely "Cosmetic" reasons? "HELL YES"! I want my tortoises as smooth as possable.... it just looks good!

...OK, Page 7, 2 more pages to go and I'll be current!

 

[ra94131]

I think in a thread that contains very little, Zamric has provided the closest thing to "proof" yet. Obviously it is primarily anecdotal and an isolated example, but it is far above any other evidence provided. (I know Tom had similarly limited proof showing that it caused no harm, but had no noticeable benefit during a short trial.) As I stated earlier, Walking Rock is the only tortoise to have been raised to adulthood with a regular regimen of VitaShell and he is demonstrably very healthy.

(Throw in the fact that I believe he is mere miles from me, therefore in a very similar environment, and that is a definite mark in the "Pros" column for VitaShell.)

 

[Zamric]

Zamric,
Lanolin is definitely derived from wool....Petroleum-based wax is the Emulsifying Wax NF (which is in the ingredients, if you've ever bothered to read them...) And no, that is not at all my only point.
But I'm sure this post will be deleted, as its explaining another one of my posts, and apparently there is a rule for that, even though it has not been posted in the forum guidelines, nor was it in the agreement we all put the check next to when we make an account.
I don't understand how so many people thought that they could use against me what they themselves could not understand...I suggest re-enrollment in high-school level grammar, as this is just getting old.
You may think what you posted of WalkingRock is evidence...But due to your posts, its obvious you are a major supporter of the product. You have no documented evidence that it WAS used as often as you describe. Your husbandry tactics would have to be picked apart, to examine and see if there was another reason. Just like Tom's "experiment", which I attribute to the humidity, as this has been shown to stop pyramiding. So, its invalid.
Am I accusing you of being a liar? Certainly not. But that is not evidence. It's an anecdote, and I find it highly unlikely that you JUST NOW decided to post all of this, as if you didn't see this thread before. Just about anyone could post a picture of a large sulcata and say "I've been slathering them daily since birth!"
But I digress,
If you wish to slather and smother your tortoise with a totally unnatural wax, while being completely oblivious and ignorant of any possible side-effect it may have (regardless of the likelihood of those side-effects occurring), with no possible benefit occurring, taking risk without reason, then go right ahead. I've been posting through this entire thread to try to make sure people cared for their tortoises properly; I did this on the premise that people actually cared what was best for their tortoise, not what was best to please them. Sadly, I appear to be mistaken. Risk should not be taken without benefit, absolutely regardless of the likelihood of those risks occurring. But surprisingly, that stance can be argued left, right, up, down, and wherever else we can lead it that ends up in an insult-hurling slap-fight. I was not aware the "be on the safe side" stance could be argued; I'm truly mistaken. The only reason I can think of for arguing....Is for the sake of arguing. We all love that, don't we now?
My opinion in a nut-shell. Take it, or leave it; do whats best for your tortoise, or slather them and do whats best for you. In the end, YOU are the care-taker. This is your decision. The point of MY posts was to try to lead owners to the right decision, or at least make them aware of the risk. If the risk is not a considerate for you, if you rather do whats best for YOU....Then perhaps you need to re-think your ability to care for an animal.

This will be my last post...Insult me, discredit me, slander and berate me. Delete it, if you wish, regardless of the fact it violates no rules. It is my opinion.

WOW! REALLY? Documentatation? I am not a scientist! My wife is a Pre_school Teacher (the one who raised Walkingrock in her classroom). Why would we document the raising of a pet? (I have however documented my 2 leopards). I am not a Breeder! I don't have the numbers or the time to carry out such experiment. Tom did, but he only did it on hatchlings and he only did it for 8 months. and he did document it. Walkingrock (if you chose to belive it or not) is the best example of the proof you wanted about the long tem benefits of Vita-shell.

am I convinced that its a good product? BET THAT! but then again, I have witnessed 1st hand the benefits of longterm usage.

and for your information, I did just see this thread! I wouldn't miss out on a good debate about Vita-shell! Ask anyone here.... On this subject I am HIGHLY outspoken!



We are not looking to dis-credit you, slander you or berate you. you make bold statements of speculation and present them as fact. This crowd is just a little bit brighter than that and require ANYTHING presented as "fact" be provable. You side stepped that by taking the "Be on the safe side" stand.

You don't need to be "On the safe side" with Vita-shell. it will not harm or disfigure your tortoise and till you PROVE that it has happened AT LEAST ONCE, I'm sure that is the stand that most here will take.... May or May not be helpful, but it is not Harmful (which is what you are implying)

 

[Neal]

As I stated earlier, Walking Rock is the only tortoise to have been raised to adulthood with a regular regimen of VitaShell and he is demonstrably very healthy.

Post #36 contains another one.

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You don't need to be "On the safe side" with Vita-shell. it will not harm or disfigure your tortoise and till you PROVE that it has happened AT LEAST ONCE, I'm sure that is the stand that most here will take.... May or May not be helpful, but it is not Harmful (which is what you are implying)

Thanks for posting Zamaric. As I've stated, I agree with you that it is not harmful...whether or not it does or does not do any good is all speculation. But I think our examples are evidence that the product does not do any harm. Probably not enough to convince a scientific community, but it's still something actually tangible that shouldn't be disregarded in this debate.

 

[Zamric]

As I stated earlier, Walking Rock is the only tortoise to have been raised to adulthood with a regular regimen of VitaShell and he is demonstrably very healthy.

Post #36 contains another one.

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You don't need to be "On the safe side" with Vita-shell. it will not harm or disfigure your tortoise and till you PROVE that it has happened AT LEAST ONCE, I'm sure that is the stand that most here will take.... May or May not be helpful, but it is not Harmful (which is what you are implying)

Thanks for chiming in Zamaric. As I've stated, I agree with you that it is not harmful...whether or not it does or does not do any good is all speculation. But I think our examples are evidence that the product does not do any harm. Probably not enough to convince a scientific community, but it's still something actually tangible that shouldn't be disregarded in this debate.

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It should not! I will admit that I am only a Keeper but the overall results of 100% (2 adults of differant species raised with a regulare regement of Vita-shell succefully-VS- those raised un-succefully) must prove somthing!

BTW, sorry it took so long to chime in.... I've been going crazy in the real world!

 

[Baoh]

There is a Nobel Prize waiting for the person who can show a conversion from Kingdom to Kingdom as has been explicitly purported in this thread. This will probably be deleted. lol

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I like WalkingRock's result, by the way. Very good looking tortoise.