A Hello from a Longtime Keeper...

[chris_m90731]

Hi all,

Somehow I just ran into this site -- I've been in the market for a Leopard Tortoise youngin' to rear. I've been blessed with an awesome Sulcata I've raised since 1996 (my old highschool days)...amazing it's been that long, God I'm getting old. Anyhow, I've been doing my research, would really like to get one the "high white," Leopards. I'm not exactly clear on the whole babcocki/paradalis thing...so if anyone can clarify that I'd appreciate.

Here's a few pics of Ulysses (25") taking a drink, grubbing on collard green during these hot days in SoCal.

Glad I found this site!

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[Jacqui]

Hi! Hey, your a long way from being old.

 

[wellington]

Hello and WELCOME the high whites are hard to come by. The pardalis leopards are larger then the babcocki. The two, your sulcata and the leopard will not be able to be housed together, even when the leopard is full grown. Check out the threads at the bottom of my post. They all are great for raising a smooth, healthy, happy leopard.

 

[chris_m90731]

Hi! Hey, your a long way from being old.

LOL. It's funny, ever since I got back from Iraq I felt like an old man (@25)...

 

[chris_m90731]

Hello and WELCOME the high whites are hard to come by. The pardalis leopards are larger then the babcocki. The two, your sulcata and the leopard will not be able to be housed together, even when the leopard is full grown. Check out the threads at the bottom of my post. They all are great for raising a smooth, healthy, happy leopard.

Thanks! Appreciate the info. I'm a bit surprised you think the sulcata and leopard can't be housed together when full grown (I know a few people in SoCal who do). But I'll definitely take that in consideration in the future -- luckily I've a big yard. And I'm assuming the "raising a smooth..." comment refers to Uly's slight pyramiding which I truly regret, and understand is unhealthy -- unfortunately I was shipped away for a few years and he wasn't given the best of food. He's been on Cacti/Collard Greens/Alfalfa for a good ten years now. The kid's got a great personality...runs to me, loves his head scratched...

 

[ALDABRAMAN]

Welcome!

 

[Yvonne G]

Hi Chris:

Welcome!

The comment about not housing them together alludes to the fact that quite a few of us here on the Forum don't believe you should mix species. Its not quite as important with species from the same continent, as sulcatas and leopards are, but in this case it would be the size difference that matters. Even if you were to find a full grown leopard tortoise, he would still be smaller than Ulysses. We've seen pictures of smaller tortoises' shells being broken open by a ramming sulcata. Not a pretty sight.

 

[Tom]

Hello and welcome Chris.

Your tortoises pyramiding was not caused by diet. It was caused by dry conditions as a hatchling. My adults were also hatched around that time and look similar to yours. A lot has changed and a lot has been learned in the last few years. You've got some catching up to do "old Man".

Diet wise, your sulcata really needs some more grass in his diet. Most of us use orchard grass hay or Bermuda grass hay for this. Makes it really cheap and easy. The other items you mentioned are still all smiled upon too.

The comment about not mixing them is due more to disease potential and behavioral differences. Best to keep different species separated for a variety of reasons, including those two. There are only a couple of breeders producing the "snow" or high white leopards and I dont think any of them are here on the forum. There are however several good breeders here producing the regular colored leopards.

The state of classification for leopards is a bit of a mess. Generally speaking there are two types available in the US. The more common subspecies is the babcocki. The problem is that for the last 20 or 30 years most people have just put any old leopard from any where in their huge range with any other leopard from anywhere else in their range. Their wild range is huge and encompasses most of the African continent from way down at the southern tip where I have personally seen wild ones to way up in Etheopia where the Fifes documented them. The most current scientific info I have seen recognizes 11 different types from throughout the range. So basically, most of the babcocki in the US are likely some mix of one or more of these different types.

The less common subspecies is the pardalis. There are only a few people producing these in the entire country, and I have been told that all of those originated from the same shipment back in 1990. Without knowing the importer and exactly when and where they came from, there is really no way to be sure that you have pure ones. You basically have to take someone's word for it and I know of at least a couple people who lie.

As far as the differences, well just do a forum search. There are lots of threads on it and many of us have argued extensively about it. Everyone's opinions are out there.

 

[chris_m90731]

Hi Chris:

Welcome!

The comment about not housing them together alludes to the fact that quite a few of us here on the Forum don't believe you should mix species. Its not quite as important with species from the same continent, as sulcatas and leopards are, but in this case it would be the size difference that matters. Even if you were to find a full grown leopard tortoise, he would still be smaller than Ulysses. We've seen pictures of smaller tortoises' shells being broken open by a ramming sulcata. Not a pretty sight.

I hear ya. Good points to consider. I'm currently planning a new massive outdoor enclosure. Going assure there's an option to section it off.

 

[Eweezyfosheezy]

Welcome to the forum! Ditto with everything stated in the above comments. Its usually not wise to mix species. Especially with a huge adult male sulcata that will likely mate with any other female tort or kill any other male tort.

 

[Neal]

This thread can help you distinguish young babcocki and pardalis leopards from each other.

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-S-p-pardalis-and-S-p-babcocki#axzz23TJrWzcO

 

[chris_m90731]

Hello and welcome Chris.

Your tortoises pyramiding was not caused by diet. It was caused by dry conditions as a hatchling. My adults were also hatched around that time and look similar to yours. A lot has changed and a lot has been learned in the last few years. You've got some catching up to do "old Man".

Diet wise, your sulcata really needs some more grass in his diet. Most of us use orchard grass hay or Bermuda grass hay for this. Makes it really cheap and easy. The other items you mentioned are still all smiled upon too.

The comment about not mixing them is due more to disease potential and behavioral differences. Best to keep different species separated for a variety of reasons, including those two. There are only a couple of breeders producing the "snow" or high white leopards and I dont think any of them are here on the forum. There are however several good breeders here producing the regular colored leopards.

The state of classification for leopards is a bit of a mess. Generally speaking there are two types available in the US. The more common subspecies is the babcocki. The problem is that for the last 20 or 30 years most people have just put any old leopard from any where in their huge range with any other leopard from anywhere else in their range. Their wild range is huge and encompasses most of the African continent from way down at the southern tip where I have personally seen wild ones to way up in Etheopia where the Fifes documented them. The most current scientific info I have seen recognizes 11 different types from throughout the range. So basically, most of the babcocki in the US are likely some mix of one or more of these different types.

The less common subspecies is the pardalis. There are only a few people producing these in the entire country, and I have been told that all of those originated from the same shipment back in 1990. Without knowing the importer and exactly when and where they came from, there is really no way to be sure that you have pure ones. You basically have to take someone's word for it and I know of at least a couple people who lie.

As far as the differences, well just do a forum search. There are lots of threads on it and many of us have argued extensively about it. Everyone's opinions are out there.

Very helpful stuff, Tom. Things sure have changed since the 90s. I'd always thought (and been told) pyramiding was due to high protein in the diet/improper diet. I'm lucky in that I've a large supply of spineless cacti -- which, from research, is a prime food source for Sulcatas. And every few months I buy a bale of alfalfa hay (he goes through it like a beast). Try to stay away from the wet food, ie Romaine and other lettuces. Thoughts on spineless optuna and alfalfa hay?

---

This thread can help you distinguish young babcocki and pardalis leopards from each other.

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-S-p-pardalis-and-S-p-babcocki#axzz23TJrWzcO

Perfect!

 

[ascott]

Welcome to the Forum and and your guy is beautiful....I personally think the little minor points on his shell simply give him the string rugged guy look..... Certainly does not take from his handsomeness....

While I do believe we all agree to some degree or another that humidity plays a viable role...diet, sun and exercise all also play into affects on a tortoise health as well as a smooth shell.....some folks raise near smooth torts 100% captive however, in my opinion, a "wild smooth" shell has yet to become common place in a fully captive environment....anyways...welcome and again, your tort is beautiful.....

 

[pam]

Welcome

 

[chris_m90731]

Welcome to the Forum and and your guy is beautiful....I personally think the little minor points on his shell simply give him the string rugged guy look..... Certainly does not take from his handsomeness....

While I do believe we all agree to some degree or another that humidity plays a viable role...diet, sun and exercise all also play into affects on a tortoise health as well as a smooth shell.....some folks raise near smooth torts 100% captive however, in my opinion, a "wild smooth" shell has yet to become common place in a fully captive environment....anyways...welcome and again, your tort is beautiful.....

Thank you!

 

[Tom]

Spineless opuntia is a good food for them as part of a balanced and varied diet. I feed it to mine once or twice a week usually.

Alfalfa is debateable. I think it is fine once in a while, but not as a staple. It's too rich and too high on protein for every day consumption. While we now know that protein does not cause pyramiding, a diet too high in protein all the time can cause all sorts problems with their internal organs, especially if they don't drink lots of water regularly. Instead of alfalfa, I would use Bermuda grass hay or orchard grass hay, or both. And of course make sure to always have drinking water available in a shallow tub of some sort. I grow my own alfalfa and feed it to them once a week or so.

Other good food sources are mulberry leaves, grape leaves, hibiscus leaves and flowers and all sorts of weeds. Overall though grass or grass hay and weeds should make up the bulk of the diet for an adult sulcata. All the other stuff is really just "gravy". On rare occasion, mine also get leftover salad mixes, pumpkin, watermelon rinds in the summer and lots of other things in small quantities and infrequently. Most days they eat mostly grass, grass hay and weeds.

 

[TORTOISEMAN1]

Very cool pics!