A lot of white feces

[tortoise-n00b]

I'm a new owner of four Sulcata tortoises--no experience with any reptiles.


I got them from a really run down pet shop and the guy had them in overturned a cardboard box lid with no light or heat. Maybe he took them in the sun once in a while I'm not sure. Anyway as soon as I got them I made sure to put them next to the window and they get direct sunlight the entire day. They all seem to eat well.

I have two questions:

1. The first is that suddenly someone (around 4 months old according to the shop) left a really large pile of white poo in the water dish. I have attached a picture. Its about 3/4" x 1/2".

From the pooing that I have seen it has been dark and brown, but suddenly this. Something tells me this is not normal.

2. The second is that they seem to only eat fresh vegetable leafs, not even the stalks. I tried some flower petals and carrots they avoided that too. Is this normal for babies?


Thanks

 

[Maro2Bear]

Greetings

Welcome to the Forum, make sure you read up here on how to take care of Sullys

- https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/how-to-raise-a-healthy-sulcata-or-leopard-version-2-0.79895/

The White matter

Tortoises also produce urine and urates. ... When the tortoise urinates, it will pass the liquid urine and the semi-solid urates at the same time. A tortoise may urinate and defecate at the same time, which may leave urate deposits on the fecal material. This will make the feces appear as if it is white or off-white.
- http://www.reptilesmagazine.com/Turtles-Tortoises/Turtle-Care/White-Tortoise-Feces/

 

[Tom]

Hello and welcome.

The white stuff is called urates. It is concentrated urine. This is usually seen when babies are kept too dry. Daily soaks will help taper it off over a week or two.

Here is all the sulcata info in one place for you. Most of what you read out there in the world is wrong.
https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/beginner-mistakes.45180/
https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/how-to-raise-a-healthy-sulcata-or-leopard-version-2-0.79895/
https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/for-those-who-have-a-young-sulcata.76744/

 

[Yvonne G]

I would like to direct you this this thread which is located in our FAQ section:

https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/what-is-this-white-stuff-my-tortoise-pooped-out.70277/

 

[Wolfpackin]

You should also be aware that necessary UVB does not pass through your glass window so they need some outside sun time or a UVB bulb.

 

[JoesMum]

I'm a new owner of four Sulcata tortoises--no experience with any reptiles.


I got them from a really run down pet shop and the guy had them in overturned a cardboard box lid with no light or heat. Maybe he took them in the sun once in a while I'm not sure. Anyway as soon as I got them I made sure to put them next to the window and they get direct sunlight the entire day. They all seem to eat well.

I have two questions:

1. The first is that suddenly someone (around 4 months old according to the shop) left a really large pile of white poo in the water dish. I have attached a picture. Its about 3/4" x 1/2".

From the pooing that I have seen it has been dark and brown, but suddenly this. Something tells me this is not normal.

2. The second is that they seem to only eat fresh vegetable leafs, not even the stalks. I tried some flower petals and carrots they avoided that too. Is this normal for babies?


Thanks

1. White stuff = urate = normal as explained by the others

2. Torts can be quite fixed in their opinion of what constitutes food. A diet of weedy and leafy greens is what a sulcata should be eating though so as long the leaves aren't just lettuce and you have a healthy variety there then don't worry

3. I am concerned about the enclosure your tort lives in. A cardboard box is not a suitable home. Your tort needs a large enclosure with an earthy type substrate like fine grade orchid bark that can be mixed with water so it is all damp to raise humidity.

Your tort must be able to bask at 95-100F/35-37C. Indoors this requires a proper basking lamp hung vertically above the substrate. UVB, essential for healthy bones and shell, does not pass through window glass and your tort will quickly get Metabolic Bone Disease without a UVB lamp.

Babies require a steady temperature and humidity day and night and to do this you will need to create a closed chamber. Temperatures in a window can vary from far too hot to far too cold in a few hours and you shouldn't put a tortoise enclosure in a window.

Unless you make changes quickly this baby will die. Post photos as you create your baby's new home and we can help you correct it.

I recommend you read the TFO care guides and compare them with your setup.

They're written by species experts working hard to correct the outdated information widely available on the internet and from pet stores and, sadly, from some breeders and vets too.

Beginner Mistakes
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/beginner-mistakes.45180/

How to raise a healthy Sulcata
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/how-to-raise-a-healthy-sulcata-or-leopard-version-2-0.79895/

For those that have a young Sulcata
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/for-those-who-have-a-young-sulcata.76744/

 

[tortoise-n00b]

I don't have them in a cardboard box

 

[tortoise-n00b]

1. White stuff = urate = normal as explained by the others

2. Torts can be quite fixed in their opinion of what constitutes food. A diet of weedy and leafy greens is what a sulcata should be eating though so as long the leaves aren't just lettuce and you have a healthy variety there then don't worry

3. I am concerned about the enclosure your tort lives in. A cardboard box is not a suitable home. Your tort needs a large enclosure with an earthy type substrate like fine grade orchid bark that can be mixed with water so it is all damp to raise humidity.

Your tort must be able to bask at 95-100F/35-37C. Indoors this requires a proper basking lamp hung vertically above the substrate. UVB, essential for healthy bones and shell, does not pass through window glass and your tort will quickly get Metabolic Bone Disease without a UVB lamp.

Babies require a steady temperature and humidity day and night and to do this you will need to create a closed chamber. Temperatures in a window can vary from far too hot to far too cold in a few hours and you shouldn't put a tortoise enclosure in a window.

Unless you make changes quickly this baby will die. Post photos as you create your baby's new home and we can help you correct it.

I recommend you read the TFO care guides and compare them with your setup.

They're written by species experts working hard to correct the outdated information widely available on the internet and from pet stores and, sadly, from some breeders and vets too.

Beginner Mistakes
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/beginner-mistakes.45180/

How to raise a healthy Sulcata
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/how-to-raise-a-healthy-sulcata-or-leopard-version-2-0.79895/

For those that have a young Sulcata
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/for-those-who-have-a-young-sulcata.76744/

Thanks for your concern but I do not have my tortoises in a cardboard box. They are in a sweater box with organic soil at the bottom and shaved coconut husk on top. I made a hiding spot for them. I have a heat lamp at night, but during the day the sunlight from the window keeps them warm. I live in a desert climate area and the enclosure isn't "in the window" (I don't know how that's possible). My humidifier keeps my entire house at 65% humidity. Each day I let them bask and roam around few hours.

 

[Minority2]

Thanks for your concern but I do not have my tortoises in a cardboard box. They are in a sweater box with organic soil at the bottom and shaved coconut husk on top. I made a hiding spot for them. I have a heat lamp at night, but during the day the sunlight from the window keeps them warm. I live in a desert climate area and the enclosure isn't "in the window" (I don't know how that's possible). My humidifier keeps my entire house at 65% humidity. Each day I let them bask and roam around few hours.

1. What are the dimensions of the sweater box and are all four Sulcatas (hatchlings?) housed in a single box?

Young Sulcatas require a lot of space; more than the average small species tortoise because of how fast they can grow.

2. How are you supplying UV(B) for these tortoises?

A closed window will physically block all UV(B) rays from entering.

3. What type of heat lamp are you using for night time heating?

Do not use red bulbs. They can be confusing and disorienting to tortoises.

4. What daytime lighting and heating fixtures are you using?

100F basking spot, 80F ambient day and night enclosure temperature, and 80% and above day and night humidity level is highly recommended for young Sulcatas.

 

[tortoise-n00b]

1. What are the dimensions of the sweater box and are all four Sulcatas (hatchlings?) housed in a single box?

Its about 22" x 18". They are 2 months old now. Will enlarge the space as needed

2. How are you supplying UV(B) for these tortoises?

A closed window will physically block all UV(B) rays from entering.

As stated above, by letting them outside for several hours a day.

3. What type of heat lamp are you using for night time heating?

A ceramic lamp:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B017RCQ4JO/?tag=exoticpetnetw-20

4. What daytime lighting and heating fixtures are you using?

I just use the sun (I live in a desert climate) for heating. I see them go into the sun and then retreat back into the shade/hiding spot so it seems to be adequate for warmth.

Just a question. Why is it necessary to have above 80% humidity? Aren't sulcatas from the dry and arid plains of Africa?

 

[Minority2]

1. What are the dimensions of the sweater box and are all four Sulcatas (hatchlings?) housed in a single box?

Its about 22" x 18". They are 2 months old now. Will enlarge the space as needed

2. How are you supplying UV(B) for these tortoises?

A closed window will physically block all UV(B) rays from entering.

As stated above, by letting them outside for several hours a day.

3. What type of heat lamp are you using for night time heating?

A ceramic lamp:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B017RCQ4JO/?tag=exoticpetnetw-20

4. What daytime lighting and heating fixtures are you using?

I just use the sun (I live in a desert climate) for heating. I see them go into the sun and then retreat back into the shade/hiding spot so it seems to be adequate for warmth.

Just a question. Why is it necessary to have above 80% humidity? Aren't sulcatas from the dry and arid plains of Africa?

22" x 18" box is too small for a single hatchling of any tortoise species, let alone 4 Sulcatas. Space is very important for tortoises, especially when housed in groups. Competition will always occur when space is limited. A 4' x 2' ft enclosure is the minimum I would suggest to house a single hatchling Sulcata tortoise. An 8' x 4' ft enclosure for a group and even then it would only be enough space for 1-2 years tops.

Make sure to have an outdoor enclosure prepared for your tortoises. Sulcatas will always attempt to escape if the opportunity present itself. Their outdoor enclosure should have shade, hides, and water dishes available at all times. I do not typically recommend too much outdoor time for young tortoises because temperature and humidity levels may fluctuate far too often in some regions for them to thrive in.

Sulcatas in the wild are bred during hot and humid rainy reasons. Wild Sulcatas will also burrow underground and create their own humid environments by voiding their systems. Raising tortoises dry is an old and inaccurate method that has been found to be quite unsafe for a tortoise's developing organs.

Several studies conducted in recent years have also shown high humidity levels to be main contributing factor to preventing pyramiding in tortoises.

 

[tortoise-n00b]

And the studies say 80% air humidity? How would I achieve this?

 

[JoesMum]

And the studies say 80% air humidity? How would I achieve this?

This is for youngsters. Older animals can take it lower.

You achieve it by having a closed chamber - an enclosure with a lid, a vivarium, a plant tent over the enclosure or similar.

Inside the substrate must be damp, all of it, top to bottom and right into the corners. The combination of heat from the basking lamp, damp substrate and the closed chamber allows the humidity to rise

 

[tortoise-n00b]

It seems like 80% is unnatural, and having a closed lid wouldn't allow heat to escape properly basically negating their "cooling off" area.

 

[Yvonne G]

It seems like 80% is unnatural, and having a closed lid wouldn't allow heat to escape properly basically negating their "cooling off" area.

With baby tortoises you shouldn't have a cooling off area. My baby enclosures are 80-85F all over the whole enclosure with only a very slight drop at night. The whole enclosure is upwards of 80% humidity, simulating the monsoon conditions baby sulcatas hatch out into in the "real world."

You need to get rid of all the old, outdated info on raising baby tortoises that you have stored in your head, and read the threads at the top of the sulcata section with an open mind. We have new and better ways to keep baby tortoises now-a-days.

 

[tortoise-n00b]

I don't have anything stored in my head. It just seems that if you look at their native habitats, humidity never ever gets that high and temperatures do drop well below 80 at night.

Are we saying that we have figured out a way better than what is natural?

 

[Yvonne G]

No, we're saying that we've moved beyond keeping them in a desert - like setting to a more natural way. Baby sulcatas hatch during the monsoon season when it's wet, hot and humid. The temperature where they are is always in the 80s.

 

[Yvonne G]

@Tom can explain it better than I. He is in contact with Tomas Diagne (spelling???) who lives in Africa and is working with sulcatas in the wild.

 

[Markw84]

I don't have anything stored in my head. It just seems that if you look at their native habitats, humidity never ever gets that high and temperatures do drop well below 80 at night.

Are we saying that we have figured out a way better than what is natural?

We have simply learned far more about how tortoises actually live and are able to survive in an area that seems so inhospitable. The temperatures in their native range rarely drops below 75° at night. (I added a temp graph below from the heart of sulcata country) In the "coldest" part of the year it also warms quickly to above 90° the next morning. The ground temperature is most important as tortoises are designed to take advantage of the thermal mass of the ground with their flat bottoms and staying dug in under bushes. The ground temperature in their native range never drops below 80°. Ground temps average very close to the average daily temp. You can see from the graph below that would never be below 85°. Older sulcatas dig burrows to provide a shelter that remains around 90° year round and deep underground retains high humidity. Younger sulcatas never use burrows. They would easily be eaten by the monitors that are extremely common in tortoise burrows. The instead dig into moist soil under large clumps of grass. There the humidity remains at close to 100% even when the temp and humidity right above them is 100° and single digit humidity! Most people that give advice about how to keep them have never even bothered to check such things as it is easy to simply assume it is the southern fringes of the Sahara! It must be dry. But that climate would kill them if they had not adapted ways to overcome it! I have done many experiments and lots of research on this. I put data loggers in the favorite hides my tortoises choose in my habitats I have here to see differences. For example last week the daytime highs averaged 84° and the humidity then was in the low 20% range. Under their favorite grass clump the temp never got above 71° and the humidity never dropped below 98%.

A young tortoise cannot go from the protection of an egg, where it can only grow and form floating in fluid, to suddenly hatch and be subjected to drying conditions. It takes a few years to develop to that point, and the tortoises that stay hidden and can find those humid moist hides that provide both food and temperature and humidity they need, will be the ones that survive.

Creating that environment in captivity will allow your tortoise to grow in the most healthy way.

 

[Yvonne G]

Thank you, Mark.