A question on pyramiding...

[tortugatamer]

When we bought Rufus from the breeder he told us that he had been kept in a humid environment he even showed me several photos of how they were kept. The pictures depicted a classic rubber maid tub with cococoir, water and feed dishes. He even had a few of the parents that were pyramided but he consoled me that he had them before reading the R.Fife book on raising leopards. He told me he soaked them once every two days for thirty minutes. So i thought we were off to a good enough start! I brought him home to his current enclosure that has humidity of 70-80 all day and temps of 80-95 and a basking spot of 100 his humid hide is around 85° and about 90% humidity. But he is pyramiding! I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong. I'm also not sure if it is getting better. He gets outdoor time and a wide assortment of foods. He has a water dish he is in about 4 or so times a day drinking or just hanging out. When I look at the photos of when I first got him his scutes do look a bit raised, but at the time I thought that is just what they were supposed to look like. I have tried to do my own research, but it seems to not be enough. I would love some feed back on this. Could improper hatchling care carry over this long or do I need to rethink my setup?

August

January

February

March

April

May

June

July
I know these are not the best photos but they are some of the ones I have snapped of him as he has grown.


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[mikeh]

Great post! It will be very interesting to hear from experts.

Questions I have, and very curious as to,

1) How often do you wet his shell. How much time in 24hour period is his shell wet/moist?

2) How much calcium does he get?

3) Does he utilize his hide for sleeping and is the 85F his night time temp in the hide?





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[tortugatamer]

Re: RE: A question on pyramiding...

1) How often do you wet his shell. How much time in 24hour period is his shell wet/moist?

I soak him every day, and heavily mist him in the am and pm during the week. Then on the weekend I mist him almost every time I see him. Well after I noticed he was pyramiding. So 5 months of misty weekends.

2) How much calcium does he get?

I follow the directions on the canister 1tsp for every 142g per week every Sunday at his current weight I put two liberal tsps in a shot glass top of his enclosure and make sure to use it by the next Saturday. I mostly mix it into his zoomed grassland tortoise food and alfalfa. Kind of like a calcium mash up.

3) Does he utilize his hide for sleeping and is the 85F his night time temp in the hide?

He spends 60-80% of his life in his hide including the nights. Yes. It is under a che so it is a constant 85.



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[wellington]

From what you said from the way he was raised before you got him, he was not really kept in the hot and humid conditions. Coconut coir and water dish does not make a humid environment. He was started dry with a water dish available. That's my opinion.

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BTW, your tortoise looks great. Keep raising him the hot and humid way. The pyramiding is from before you got him, in my opinion and when he is older, you probably won't hardly be able to tell

 

[tortugatamer]

Thanks! I just want to provide the best environment for him. If he was kept dry when hatched would that still be causing him to pyramid now? I know that it takes some time to stop the progression but he is nearly 10m old. I just don't want to screw up a creature.

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[mikeh]

Re: RE: A question on pyramiding...

From what you said from the way he was raised before you got him, he was not really kept in the hot and humid conditions. Coconut coir and water dish does not make a humid environment. He was started dry with a water dish available. That's my opinion.

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BTW, your tortoise looks great. Keep raising him the hot and humid way. The pyramiding is from before you got him, in my opinion and when he is older, you probably won't hardly be able to tell

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I disagre. New growth is pyramiding for months now. I have a 4 month old who came very similar to yours and new growth after two months is super smooth.

His wet time shell seems ok so does calcium.

Since he spends most of his time in the hide, think that's where you may start looking. Is this a closed chamber? Can we see some pics of the set up. Are you sure you are getting 90% humidity in the hide with CHE above? CHE will dry out the air. I don't think he needs 85F in the hide 80F is recommended for healthy individual.

As a comparison, here is a pic of 2 month old at the time of shipping, also raised with humid hide soaked twice a week, no substrate, no controlled humidity by the breeder. You can see start of pyramiding.


Here he is two months and 6 days later

.

There is no further pyramiding in new growth. Hasn't grown much, due to only food him getting right now is whatever he finds grazing or weeds, clover and grass when indoors.



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[tortugatamer]

I have a ceramic bonsai dish to spread the heat over a plastic box with a hole cut into it for an entrance. I wet the substrate every two or three days in his enclosure. I might try dropping the temp for the humid hide. But I don't want it to get too cold and have him develop an upper respiratory infection.
Its mostly closed and hold humidity well.

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[Tom]

The first few weeks of a hatchlings life are critical, and set the pattern of growth for months or years to come. Your breeder sounds better than most, but the Fife book only goes so far. They recommend warm temps and a humid hide, but they allow for the rest of the enclosure to be dry. If your breeder had an open top, the humidity might have been a little higher than what was in the room, but not high enough.

Your baby was already slightly pyramiding when you got it. The pattern was not nearly as bad as some, but it was there none the less. Stopping pyramiding in progress is MUCH harder than preventing it in the first place.

I wouldn't worry about this too much. Your baby looks healthy. The color is pretty neat too. You are offering great care and it will begin to smooth out more and more over time.

 

[tortugatamer]

Thanks. I'll just have to keep on keepin' on I guess. I will stick with trying new things a hopefully by the time he is a year he will start to smooth out. :/
Do you think the pyramidimg is coming from his fast growth? I got him in January at 2m and 46g and now at 10m he is 402g that's 356g in 8 months.

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[Tom]

In the pics you show of the other leopard there is just one raised scute, and I'm not ready to call that a pattern of pyramiding yet. Your tort had several and was clearly already on that road.

Every tortoise is different and we do not have all the detail worked out yet. You can raise a bunch of them in the same enclosure and some will always pyramid more than others. We don't know why yet. Behavior differences are one possible explanation. When I raise a group of sulcatas or leopards, some individuals will choose to spend more time in the humid hide than others. Those individuals always grow smoother and faster. My Daisy was far worse than your was at the time I got her. She showed no improvement for almost two years. I was very frustrated and ready to give up, but in time things did improve and now all her growth is smooth except for the little nubs in the middle of each scute that she had when I got her.

I would not cool your humid hide. I would make it more humid. 90% in the hide is not all that high. I keep mine at 99-100%.

 

[mikeh]

Tom is right, your tort looks great and is healthy, pyramiding is not a disease.

On that note, I would still take some steps like moving the che next to the hide rather then above having warm air work itself into the hide rather then shell receiving radiant heat from the bonsai ceramic dish. Ceramic emits high amount of radiant heat. In nature at night, tortoises shell doesnt receive any radiant heat from above. If anything the warmth comes from the ground.

You can also mist his shell once he is a sleep. Spray the hide lightly as well.

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[TigsMom]

Is he getting sunshine? or proper UVA & UVB or both to help him with absorbing the calcium supplement you're giving? He's absolutely beautiful and it sure looks like you've done your homework. The only other thing I can think of is tweaking his diet, but I am far from knowing what items you might switch.

My Desert Tortoises resuces, didn't show major pyramiding improvement for about 3 years. But they grow at a much slower rate than yours. They're pyramiding was due to neglect, improper diet and no light (no sun, no uva, no uvb).

 

[tortugatamer]

OK I'll get more moss for the hide and try to boost up the humidity more! Can fast growth cause pyramiding? He has shot from 42g to 402g. Too much protein? Or too much calcium?

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He gets approximately 2 hours per week outside. And he has a mvb. I am feeling more hopeful though. Maybe all he needs is time.

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Tom is right, your tort looks great and is healthy, pyramiding is not a disease.

On that note, I would still take some steps like moving the che next to the hide rather then above having warm air work itself into the hide rather then shell receiving radiant heat from the bonsai ceramic dish. Ceramic emits high amount of radiant heat. In nature at night, tortoises shell doesnt receive any radiant heat from above. If anything the warmth comes from the ground.

You can also mist his shell once he is a sleep. Spray the hide lightly as well.

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I mist the hide in the am and pm. But I'll try moving it to the side of the che this weekend and see if it lowers the temps too much.

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[Tom]

Is he getting sunshine? or proper UVA & UVB or both to help him with absorbing the calcium supplement you're giving? He's absolutely beautiful and it sure looks like you've done your homework. The only other thing I can think of is tweaking his diet, but I am far from knowing what items you might switch.

My Desert Tortoises resuces, didn't show major pyramiding improvement for about 3 years. But they grow at a much slower rate than yours. They're pyramiding was due to neglect, improper diet and no light (no sun, no uva, no uvb).

Their pyramiding is due to growth in conditions that were too dry. You can feed them a poor diet and give them no sun and they can still grow smooth. Conversely, you can give them a great diet and lots of sunshine, and they will still pyramid if its too dry.

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OK I'll get more moss for the hide and try to boost up the humidity more! Can fast growth cause pyramiding? He has shot from 42g to 402g. Too much protein? Or too much calcium?

What do you feed him? Higher protein levels CAN cause faster growth, but if conditions are right it will not cause pyramiding.

Too much calcium will not cause pyramiding, but it can interfere with the absorption of other important minerals and trace elements. An excess of calcium will simply be peed out.

 

[Levi the Leopard]

That is some beautiful light coloring!! Boy how badly I want one light Leopard like that.


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[tortugatamer]

Re: RE: A question on pyramiding...

Is he getting sunshine? or proper UVA & UVB or both to help him with absorbing the calcium supplement you're giving? He's absolutely beautiful and it sure looks like you've done your homework. The only other thing I can think of is tweaking his diet, but I am far from knowing what items you might switch.

My Desert Tortoises resuces, didn't show major pyramiding improvement for about 3 years. But they grow at a much slower rate than yours. They're pyramiding was due to neglect, improper diet and no light (no sun, no uva, no uvb).

Their pyramiding is due to growth in conditions that were too dry. You can feed them a poor diet and give them no sun and they can still grow smooth. Conversely, you can give them a great diet and lots of sunshine, and they will still pyramid if its too dry.

---

OK I'll get more moss for the hide and try to boost up the humidity more! Can fast growth cause pyramiding? He has shot from 42g to 402g. Too much protein? Or too much calcium?

What do you feed him? Higher protein levels CAN cause faster growth, but if conditions are right it will not cause pyramiding.

Too much calcium will not cause pyramiding, but it can interfere with the absorption of other important minerals and trace elements. An excess of calcium will simply be peed out.

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The food I'm worried about is the alfalfa hay. I feed it maybe 3 times per week and about a Tbsp each time.


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