A scammer of sulcata tortoise breeder

waterview

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In the middle of 2018, we imported the adult male of 100% het albino sulcata tortoises from Joe Imperatori. During the time, our females lbino sulcata tortoises were not mature for breeding. In around 2 years later, we bred them. That male is not 100% het albino at all.
We paid 20K USD for this lesson the biggest tortoises scammer we ever met.
Obviously, what he sold us is not 100% het albino sulcata tortoises and of course it cannot breed any albino babies. We trusted him (paid without any hesitation), he lied to us . He caused this problem, so he should solve it.
We requested one male for replacement or money fund. But he used many excuses to refuse our requirements
last year we ordered BB 50 hds albino sclcata tortoises from Joe Imperatori but he placed 8 hds split/ extra scutes in the shipment without notice. We paid the advanced money for flawless. In Asia, the customers won't pay the regular price to get split scutes.
PLEASE be aware of this guy if you try to make a deal with him.

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Yvonne G

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I don't really understand the 'het' or '100%' stuff, but I'm thinking there's really no way of knowing for sure if an animals is 100% or not. I'm thinking 'het' means the animal looks normal, not albino, but he will (maybe) produce albino offspring. I don't think there's any guarantee. I'm thinking it's a crap shoot, and that the seller couldn't possibly know for sure if the animal would produce albino offspring 100% of the time. Imperatori has a good reputation. I don't think he scammed you on purpose.
 

Blackdog1714

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I would think a blood test would be needed to be done to confirm. I would no go looks alone and for that much money I don’t understand why a blood test to confirm it wasn’t done.
 

Markw84

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I would think a blood test would be needed to be done to confirm. I would no go looks alone and for that much money I don’t understand why a blood test to confirm it wasn’t done.
There is no way to tell if the tortoise is heterozygos except by seeing what type offspring is can produce. No blood test can tell if that allele of albinism is present.

I don't really understand the 'het' or '100%' stuff, but I'm thinking there's really no way of knowing for sure if an animals is 100% or not. I'm thinking 'het' means the animal looks normal, not albino, but he will (maybe) produce albino offspring. I don't think there's any guarantee. I'm thinking it's a crap shoot, and that the seller couldn't possibly know for sure if the animal would produce albino offspring 100% of the time. Imperatori has a good reputation. I don't think he scammed you on purpose.

With albinism, the allele for it is not dominant, so the only way to know for sure if it is present by knowing the parents. If one of the parents was albino and the other normal, there is a 100% chance that ALL of the offspring will have that allele. They will all be het (heterozygos) for albino, but none will be albino.

IF they are breeding two sulcatas both het for albino, only 25% of the offspring will be albino. 50% will be het for albino, and 25% will be normal. In that case normal looking offspring SHOULD be sold as possible het for albino, since 1/3 of them will not have the albino allele at all.

The issue becomes even more complicated if there is any chance at all the female has had any contact with another male in the past few years. Strict care in which tortoises have any access to possible mates is very important. In the case of albinism, there is absolutely no way to tell a het from a normal except by seeing what offspring it produces

So in buying heterozygos animals, it is totally up to the quality of the breeding program and the honesty of the exact lineage of the animal.
 

bouaboua

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Educational~ Learn something today.
 

Toddrickfl1

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I don't really understand the 'het' or '100%' stuff, but I'm thinking there's really no way of knowing for sure if an animals is 100% or not. I'm thinking 'het' means the animal looks normal, not albino, but he will (maybe) produce albino offspring. I don't think there's any guarantee. I'm thinking it's a crap shoot, and that the seller couldn't possibly know for sure if the animal would produce albino offspring 100% of the time. Imperatori has a good reputation. I don't think he scammed you on purpose.
An animal that is sold as 100% het comes from two Het parents or an albino and a Het parent. Which makes all the babies that hatch that don't have the albino trait 100% het. You shouldn't sell an animal as 100% het unless your absolutely sure of the parents.
 

Blackdog1714

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There is no way to tell if the tortoise is heterozygos except by seeing what type offspring is can produce. No blood test can tell if that allele of albinism is present.



With albinism, the allele for it is not dominant, so the only way to know for sure if it is present by knowing the parents. If one of the parents was albino and the other normal, there is a 100% chance that ALL of the offspring will have that allele. They will all be het (heterozygos) for albino, but none will be albino.

IF they are breeding two sulcatas both het for albino, only 25% of the offspring will be albino. 50% will be het for albino, and 25% will be normal. In that case normal looking offspring SHOULD be sold as possible het for albino, since 1/3 of them will not have the albino allele at all.

The issue becomes even more complicated if there is any chance at all the female has had any contact with another male in the past few years. Strict care in which tortoises have any access to possible mates is very important. In the case of albinism, there is absolutely no way to tell a het from a normal except by seeing what offspring it produces

So in buying heterozygos animals, it is totally up to the quality of the breeding program and the honesty of the exact lineage of the animal.
Well damn! Looks like buying a baby is risky business! I figured th technology would be available to do that now! Thanks for education!
 

Yvonne G

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An animal that is sold as 100% het comes from two Het parents or an albino and a Het parent. Which makes all the babies that hatch that don't have the albino trait 100% het. You shouldn't sell an animal as 100% het unless your absolutely sure of the parents.
Yes, but if I understood the OP correctly he expected to get all albino babies out of his het when bred to his albino females. One can't SEE het traits in babies.
 

Toddrickfl1

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Yes, but if I understood the OP correctly he expected to get all albino babies out of his het when bred to his albino females. One can't SEE het traits in babies.
True, I don't know if it's possible that all the offspring were all het and none were albino?
 

Flanman

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True, I don't know if it's possible that all the offspring were all het and none were albino?

2 Homozygous individuals can only produce homozygous babies. A homozygous recessive paired with a heterozygous dominant has a 50/50 chance. Anything paired with a homozygous dominant will always result in either a het or homo dominant child.
 
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Maro2Bear

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There is no way to tell if the tortoise is heterozygos except by seeing what type offspring is can produce. No blood test can tell if that allele of albinism is present.



With albinism, the allele for it is not dominant, so the only way to know for sure if it is present by knowing the parents. If one of the parents was albino and the other normal, there is a 100% chance that ALL of the offspring will have that allele. They will all be het (heterozygos) for albino, but none will be albino.

IF they are breeding two sulcatas both het for albino, only 25% of the offspring will be albino. 50% will be het for albino, and 25% will be normal. In that case normal looking offspring SHOULD be sold as possible het for albino, since 1/3 of them will not have the albino allele at all.

The issue becomes even more complicated if there is any chance at all the female has had any contact with another male in the past few years. Strict care in which tortoises have any access to possible mates is very important. In the case of albinism, there is absolutely no way to tell a het from a normal except by seeing what offspring it produces

So in buying heterozygos animals, it is totally up to the quality of the breeding program and the honesty of the exact lineage of the animal.

Aaagh - love it. Back to my generics class in undergrad biology. I understood & followed everything, perfect?
 

jaizei

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Yes, but if I understood the OP correctly he expected to get all albino babies out of his het when bred to his albino females. One can't SEE het traits in babies.

No, he's saying he's gotten 0 albinos, so he now knows it wasn't a het. Assuming he's gotten at least a few dozen to hatch, it's unlikely that they are all het without a single albino.
 

Yvonne G

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No, he's saying he's gotten 0 albinos, so he now knows it wasn't a het. Assuming he's gotten at least a few dozen to hatch, it's unlikely that they are all het without a single albino.
OK, got it!
 

Markw84

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An animal that is sold as 100% het comes from two Het parents or an albino and a Het parent. Which makes all the babies that hatch that don't have the albino trait 100% het. You shouldn't sell an animal as 100% het unless your absolutely sure of the parents.
The only way you can be 100% sure of a het is if the female (dam) was albino or if you are positive the only possible male (sirewas albino.

albino to albino = all albino babies
Albino to het = 1/2 albino and 1/2 het
Het to het = 1/4 albino, 1/2 het and 1/4 normal

if the OP bred the tortoise he bought as a het with an albino - 50% of the babies would be albino. That way proves the tortoise was indeed het. If none are albino you know it is absolutely not a het

that is how you find out if you were lucky with a properly labeled possible het. Breed it with an albino and see if you get any albinos. If none then the possible het is proven to be normal
 

Toddrickfl1

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The only way you can be 100% sure of a het is if the female (dam) was albino or if you are positive the only possible male (sirewas albino.

albino to albino = all albino babies
Albino to het = 1/2 albino and 1/2 het
Het to het = 1/4 albino, 1/2 het and 1/4 normal

if the OP bred the tortoise he bought as a het with an albino - 50% of the babies would be albino. That way proves the tortoise was indeed het. If none are albino you know it is absolutely not a het

that is how you find out if you were lucky with a properly labeled possible het. Breed it with an albino and see if you get any albinos. If none then the possible het is proven to be normal
Ahh I gotcha. So a Het to Het doesn't guarantee more Hets.
 
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