A western, maybe Tuscan?

HermanniChris

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Will,

It has a number of insular traits. This means it more than likely derived from Sicily, Sardinia or Corsica. The rounded second vertebral scute, the elongate trapezoidal shape and the indicative “gular mustache” which is 1-2 black stripes/blotches on the inner sides of the gular scutes are the main traits I’m seeing here which are associated with insular forms and not usually Continental forms. The animal also has some random spotting along the plastron and under sides of the marginal scutes. This is sometimes seen on insular animals as well but is also not a common trait on any form.

My best educated guess is an insular form with a probable locality of Corisca or Sardinia as Sicilian specimens are usually cleaner looking. Will post some reference pics shortly...
 
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HermanniChris

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In this first image, a Corsican animal (insular) on the right is compared to a Varoise animal (continental) on the left. The shape of the second vertebral scute is highlighted in blue. IMG_9036.jpg


In this second photo, the trapezoidal shape of a Corsican (insular) male is shown.
IMG_9002.jpg

In this third photo, the "gular mustache" is shown on a Coriscan (insular) animal.
IMG_9030_edited-1.jpg

In this fourth photo, the gular mustache is absent in this Varoise (continental) animal.
IMG_8992_edited-1.jpg

In this fifth image, a Tuscan (continental) male is shown. You can see a few traits like the straight edged suture between the first and second vertebral scute, the high contrast and orange hue to the ground color as well as a wider, almost rounder look.
IMG_4572.jpg

And lastly, the plastron of an Apulian (also continental) male is shown.
IMG_4538.jpg

I do also want to point out the presence of some grey areas and spots on the animal in question here. Now, I cannot be sure without seeing genetic results, but these grey regions on the shell are associated with known hybrids. For example, this animal here revealed that it carried allele 73 for GAL136 which is only found in Hermann's tortoises from Croatia. That makes this tortoise a hybrid between the western Hermann's (Testudo hermanni hermanni) and the Dalmatian variant of the eastern Hermann's tortoise (Testudo hermanni "hercegovinensis" currently considered boettgeri).
IMG_8270.JPG
 

Kapidolo Farms

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Wow, Chris, it's almost like you have an obsessive encyclopedic knowledge of this group of tortoises. Hmmm, so I guess we will figure this is no less than an intergrade between mainland and insular forms of the western, and maybe even intergrade with the mid range hercegovinensis or the eastern, it does seem to have some of those gray patches.

This individual was sold to my friend Jan O. by Larry Gaugler as a 'Tuscan' local from Chris leone stock in 2015. So we might consider that Larry made an error...

I have two other's from Jan, that she bought directly from Chris, and I will PIT tag them and let Chris know those PIT tag numbers. They are for sure Tuscan local Hermann's. PIT tags and value added should hold some interest for all you all that care about such.

FWIW, I will PIT tag that integrade as well, so when sold it will be reasonable to keep in check no further local breeding from it. Any offers on that tortoise in the first post here can be tendered to will at [email protected], All Tortoise - All the Time.
 

brugaugler

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Here are some comments on Will's post above, from me, Larry Gaugler:

1. I made three separate sales of Tuscan babies in 2015 and 2016. None was directly to anyone names Jan O.

2. All babies that I sold came from the 1.2 Tuscan adults pictured as part of this reply. On 4/27/14 I obtained SB #1004 (male) and SB #1014 (female) from Zovickian, who had previously gotten them from Leone. On 12/7/14, I obtained SB #1005 (female) directly from Leone (that's the one on the right in the pic).

3. While "we" may consider that Larry made an error, that would be an error! :)

Before writing the above, the best course of action would have been to contact me for the details.
 

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Kapidolo Farms

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Here are some comments on Will's post above, from me, Larry Gaugler:

1. I made three separate sales of Tuscan babies in 2015 and 2016. None was directly to anyone names Jan O.

2. All babies that I sold came from the 1.2 Tuscan adults pictured as part of this reply. On 4/27/14 I obtained SB #1004 (male) and SB #1014 (female) from Zovickian, who had previously gotten them from Leone. On 12/7/14, I obtained SB #1005 (female) directly from Leone (that's the one on the right in the pic).

3. While "we" may consider that Larry made an error, that would be an error! :)

Before writing the above, the best course of action would have been to contact me for the details.


I'm eagerly awaiting Jan O.'s response. Thanks much for the follow-up Larry. @baseballturtle48
 

baseballturtle48

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I bought him as a juvie male Tuscany locale, not a baby. He's now an adult and Will has him. I think Will noticed some characteristics that didn't quite fit with the Tuscan locale and asked Chris for some expert opinion. It's been very interesting, if not a little disappointing, to follow the comparisons here. Thank you!
 

Kapidolo Farms

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@brugaugler is it possible than Jan O. did indeed buy this tortoise from you? I assumed the care and sale of much of her collection, and ALL the other sources that she claimed checked out. Maybe some confusion over the size/maturity when the sale was transacted? Hatchling versus juvenile versus young adult?

Chris Leone was kind enough to offer insight based on morphology. He directly sold other Hermann's to Jan O. and and they have been confirmed by Chris. But when the animals are three steps removed from him, I can agree it is not acceptable to assure that fourth owner of the tortoises' appellation. I'm an advocate of PIT tagging, and as those others from Jan O. that are in the studbook will go onto a fourth owner, I will PIT tag them when sold, so there will be a lifelong tie-in back to the source specimens from Chris.

Maybe you too can PIT tag your sold tortoises to reduce seller/buyer confusion. I've strongly encouraged Chris to do the same.

And if indeed you did sell the male Hermann's to Jan O. and you seem to indicate that you did not, by your accounting of babies sold, then the chance that other errors in record keeping and collection management has indeed occurred. No worries on that - I kept a studbook for the AZA and there are many errors in zoo records even with many zoos having full time dedicated staff for that purpose.

The whole goal is to keep the animal's history alive through all those buys and sells. If you or anyone else finds me in error, I fully expect help and insight to correct the matter.

Buy the way Larry, I see you are rare contributor to TFO, welcome and please offer your husbandry knowledge etc. to everyone. Often most helpful are images of enclosures, as they fulfill that notion of a picture = 1,000 words.
 
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brugaugler

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Since you are placing a lot of confidence in "Jan O.'s" info, ask "Jan O." specifically when the transfer took place. I don't know what you are talking about.
 

Kapidolo Farms

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Since you are placing a lot of confidence in "Jan O.'s" info, ask "Jan O." specifically when the transfer took place. I don't know what you are talking about.
You just did yourself. @baseballturtle48 is Jan O. as indicated in her post in this thread.
 

baseballturtle48

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I bought the tortoise from @brugaugler on 6/30/2015 as a Tuscany W. Hermanns from Chris Leone stock. It was NOT a baby, he was a juvie already obviously male, which was why I bought him. At this point, he is what he is and there's nothing I can do about it. Will has been trying to figure out what the tortoise really is, given the confusing characteristics. That's all this was about. Thanks for everybody's input.
 

brugaugler

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What do you mean "Chris Leone Stock?" I know that babies that I produced from adults that originated with Leone did not go to you. I know that I did not sell you a baby that I had gotten from Chris Leone. There is a chance that I sold you a subadult that I had gotten from another source, not Leone. I obtained a group of Tuscans in that manner and they were listed in the 2015 SB Thh. If I sold one of those to you, what SB number did I provide?
 

Kapidolo Farms

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Well if nothing else we are all learning the value in keeping records of what we buy and sell. I got to admit I don't have records of all the hundreds of leopards that I have sold. I did PIT tag all the Manouria, as they are from studbook founders. If I sell animals of mixed appellation I don't keep record, but the studbooked animals I do and/or PIT tag them.

My PIT tag registry is here on TFO. https://www.tortoiseforum.org/threa...egistry-not-a-discussion.151577/#post-1449004

It comes up faster in a Google search than any of the other registries.
 

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