Abused tortoises in the news

[Tom]

I'm leaning toward calling this MORE government abuse and theft, BUT I do not think we are getting the whole story AND there is a lot of inconsistency from one article to the next.

There are a lot of details that I would need to hear before I made up my mind on this one.

How big were the enclosures?
Were these temporary while he was building something else? He hadn't lived there for long and they obviously could not live outside over winter. The man must have had SOMETHING planned and in the works.
The fiberglass patches don't bother me. Open wounds with no visible sign of vet treatment WOULD bother me.
The guy has kept them alive for 15 years. He must be doing something right. No tortoise will survive 15 years with the type of bad care insinuated by these articles. Makes me reconsider all the other "facts" they are reporting too. Like the greatly fluctuating weights. They are clearly just making up a weight that sounds good to them. What else are they making up?

Yeah. This one definitely sounds fishy if you really look at it...

If you come to my ranch after a rain, you will find puddles like that one and worse. And that "moaning sound is very familiar around my place too. I could also take pics showing parts of my enclosures that would give the appearance of them being too small, when in fact, they are quite large.

9 times out of 10 the "authorities" are not our friends. Is this the one time, or one of the 9 times? I can't make that call without much more info and much more believable/reliable info.

 

[ascott]

There is no way that anyone can convince me that the removal was an error. The fluctuating weight of the largest one is clearly a typo on the part of the reporter....

Clearly look at the face of the largest one, sunken in eyes, no girth to it...I mean seriously...and two of the smaller ones in the sunken in "enclosure" clearly have damage to the top of their shell....really?

Even the smaller one being held by the Park staff, looks terrible...just look at the tortoise...and try to put out of your head that the enforcement agencies are out to get this guy.

He was given since the end of August to two days ago to make corrections and get them vet checked....both of which he failed to do....IN ADDITION to the fact that he should well of hell had the proper permits that the state he moved to required, really a conspiracy on the part of the neighbor and the SPCA...with this reasoning I am sure the neighbor was paid a finders fee, seriously?

So this guy buys them 15 years ago in California, then moved sometime to North wherever then moved to NJ...wow, that is alot of moving for someone that has these big guys...how did he ever expect to make an appropriate habitat for them? seriously?

I personally am grateful for there being a variety of organizations in business to look out for these along with a multitude of other species that have suffered in the thousands at the hands of "well intentioned" at best, people....

How many times has it been said on here, if you can not provide the correct care, then it is responsible to take the well being of the tortoise/turtle into consideration over our own wants by keeping a tortoise/turtle in the incorrect, less desirable way?

Many tortoise have survived many years before bad things surface...someone who owns a tortoise for 12 years then suddenly their shell goes soft, tortoise stops eating, stops moving..."suddenly dies" after 12 long years.....well, hello....tortoise are designed to live sooooo many years....12 or even 15 are but a drop in time for them....so, yes, a tortoise certainly could have survived easily for 15 years in the care of someone not doing it for the best of the tortoise....

Yes, some folks do set up their garages, sheds, boxes, entire bedrooms, etc. for their tortoise for the winter...but these are planned spaces (we have seem awesome planning here) and this guys response was said to have been, I can put them in the garage...not, I have a set up in the garage to care for them during the winter months--would you like to inspect that ???? seriously?

This man likely had ALL THE BEST INTENTIONS, but as we all know, intentions don't pay the bills.....

I am seriously shocked by the replies here cheering on the continued ill care simply because the big bad animal groups came as a result of a complaint of concern...from that point if the officials that showed up thought that all was cool...they would have done nothing so extensive to have moved/seized these guys....come on now....

 

[fbsmith3]

I just hope the zoo can give them the life they truly deserve. Maybe they can be moved South, far south, maybe to Florida.

 

[dmmj]

I can only speak for myself and the big bad animal groups, thanks to my neighbor I have had many visits from the humane society, different group I know, but all of my visits over the years I have had many complimentary and 1 or 2 negative all the same enclosures, I have been on the good and bad sides and most animal control officers while nice,seem to be sadly misinformed most of the times. Personally I would like to see the entire enclosures and not what look like to me obviously cropped photos, these could be temporary while bigger enclosures are built, and If i had bought that many aldabs and decided to move I sure as heck (edited for family viewing) would have taken them with me. I am not an expert on aldab so I can't say one way or the other if they are healthy besides the watery eyes they look well taken care of.
To the OP sorry for going OT.

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Not to cheer lead tom and begrudge ascott but I have seen lots of govermnt abuse in california personally with regards to reptiles. Anyone who has had reptiles in general for long periods of time has seen or at least known people who have had animals wrongfully taken and then either returned sickly or died while in "protective custody"

 

[ascott]

"Not to cheer lead tom and begrudge ascott but I have seen lots of govermnt abuse in california personally with regards to reptiles. Anyone who has had reptiles in general for long periods of time has seen or at least known people who have had animals wrongfully taken and then either returned sickly or died while in "protective custody"

Captain, I am not expressing my opinions/observations here in hope for a cheerleading section, truly I am not. If you have an extra set of pom poms I would gladly cheer Tom on with you---for many positive atributes. However, my prior comments are in response to the posts entered here under this thread

I have had tons of positive experiences with government animal law enforcement/protective leagues...while I agree 100% that there are going to be bad seeds in every aspect of life, I also know---all seeds are not bad.

While I am not an avid advocate for government in a variety of areas. I do know that there are real people that work for the government as well as agencies designed to look out for the well being of animals and reptiles --- that genuinely do care about what they do....

Captain, I have respect for you and enjoy the fun that I have as a member of this forum and look forward to more....so I suppose when sides are called and lines drawn...cheerleading is apparently necessary for some

 

[dmmj]

I am glad you have had many good experiences with goverment animal forces but like I said most of mine besides the complimentary visits have been mostly bad for me. I know we have at least one animal control person here and there is one in my CTTC chapter and he has heard my tales of my visits, and he even visited my house and said my enclosures were more than adequate. I only mentioned the cheer leading because I did not want you to think I was taking tom's side because I happen to like him and I like you but I did not want any hurt feelings for my comments, even though on this topic we happen to disagree, I would like more pictures and facts before declaring him guilty of " animal abuse" I always try to believe in innocent until proven guilty.

 

[ascott]

No hurt feelings Captain I am a big girl, subjects like this can ignite great passion on ones beliefs..... I agree to disagree

 

[jaizei]

As for the weight fluctuations, really? That is most likely the result of the reporters/writers giving the same information in their own words. I've seen "over 500 pounds", "500 pounds", "600 pounds", between 500 and 600 pounds" and then "575 pounds". Let's not argue semantics; maybe they should have just said 573.8495 pounds, would that be better? I'm surprised that no one pointed out that the name changes as well in different articles.

The pictures seem to support the narrative; sure tricky angles, etc can make a big space seem small but until there's proof of that there's no reason to believe that's the case.

How big were the enclosures?

4' x 15' then widened to 10' x 15'

...IN ADDITION to the fact that he should well of hell had the proper permits that the state he moved to required, really a conspiracy on the part of the neighbor and the SPCA...with this reasoning I am sure the neighbor was paid a finders fee, seriously?

So this guy buys them 15 years ago in California, then moved sometime to North wherever then moved to NJ...wow, that is alot of moving for someone that has these big guys...how did he ever expect to make an appropriate habitat for them? seriously?

I personally am grateful for there being a variety of organizations in business to look out for these along with a multitude of other species that have suffered in the thousands at the hands of "well intentioned" at best, people....

How many times has it been said on here, if you can not provide the correct care, then it is responsible to take the well being of the tortoise/turtle into consideration over our own wants by keeping a tortoise/turtle in the incorrect, less desirable way?

Many tortoise have survived many years before bad things surface...someone who owns a tortoise for 12 years then suddenly their shell goes soft, tortoise stops eating, stops moving..."suddenly dies" after 12 long years.....well, hello....tortoise are designed to live sooooo many years....12 or even 15 are but a drop in time for them....so, yes, a tortoise certainly could have survived easily for 15 years in the care of someone not doing it for the best of the tortoise....

Yes, some folks do set up their garages, sheds, boxes, entire bedrooms, etc. for their tortoise for the winter...but these are planned spaces (we have seem awesome planning here) and this guys response was said to have been, I can put them in the garage...not, I have a set up in the garage to care for them during the winter months--would you like to inspect that ???? seriously?

This man likely had ALL THE BEST INTENTIONS, but as we all know, intentions don't pay the bills.....

I am seriously shocked by the replies here cheering on the continued ill care simply because the big bad animal groups came as a result of a complaint of concern...from that point if the officials that showed up thought that all was cool...they would have done nothing so extensive to have moved/seized these guys....come on now....

GO Angela

 

[Tom]

Angela, your points are well taken and valid. Here is my problem: You and jaezei are basing your opinions on what the media reports have shown you. Personally, after all these years and many FIRST hand experiences, I have learned NOT to trust the media and their spin. Also, like the Captain, I have seen A LOT of inappropriate conduct, abuse, theft and lies committed by "the authorities". I have been dealing with animals on a professional level since 1986 in my first pet store job. What these people do is literally criminal sometimes. Its not that they don't have the occasional good officer who does the right thing, its that they usually don't. One of my mentors and long time friends is an ACO and he tells some horrific stories of stupidity and misconduct that ends up killing peoples well cared for beloved pets. Sometimes they do it out of ignorance and sometimes out of meanness or a desire to be in control and force their will. They abuse their power, in other words.

I am not saying that is what happened here. I am saying that this MIGHT be what happened here. I don't think any of us has enough reliable info to make the call in either direction.

... and thank you for the positive remarks and giving me the benefit of the doubt again.

 

[dbsneed69]

I can not take sides. I don't think there are enough facts either way.

I do know that here in Memphis, the humane society is incredibly corrupt. They had officers confiscating pit bulls and then selling them for fighting purposes. The old facility had cameras and they captured horrific abuse. When they constructed the new facility, they said there would be no cameras because it was an "invasion of privacy" for the workers. I can't speak for other organizations but I would never trust the ones here.

 

[byerssusan]

There is no way that anyone can convince me that the removal was an error. The fluctuating weight of the largest one is clearly a typo on the part of the reporter....

Clearly look at the face of the largest one, sunken in eyes, no girth to it...I mean seriously...and two of the smaller ones in the sunken in "enclosure" clearly have damage to the top of their shell....really?

Even the smaller one being held by the Park staff, looks terrible...just look at the tortoise...and try to put out of your head that the enforcement agencies are out to get this guy.

He was given since the end of August to two days ago to make corrections and get them vet checked....both of which he failed to do....IN ADDITION to the fact that he should well of hell had the proper permits that the state he moved to required, really a conspiracy on the part of the neighbor and the SPCA...with this reasoning I am sure the neighbor was paid a finders fee, seriously?

So this guy buys them 15 years ago in California, then moved sometime to North wherever then moved to NJ...wow, that is alot of moving for someone that has these big guys...how did he ever expect to make an appropriate habitat for them? seriously?

I personally am grateful for there being a variety of organizations in business to look out for these along with a multitude of other species that have suffered in the thousands at the hands of "well intentioned" at best, people....

How many times has it been said on here, if you can not provide the correct care, then it is responsible to take the well being of the tortoise/turtle into consideration over our own wants by keeping a tortoise/turtle in the incorrect, less desirable way?

Many tortoise have survived many years before bad things surface...someone who owns a tortoise for 12 years then suddenly their shell goes soft, tortoise stops eating, stops moving..."suddenly dies" after 12 long years.....well, hello....tortoise are designed to live sooooo many years....12 or even 15 are but a drop in time for them....so, yes, a tortoise certainly could have survived easily for 15 years in the care of someone not doing it for the best of the tortoise....

Yes, some folks do set up their garages, sheds, boxes, entire bedrooms, etc. for their tortoise for the winter...but these are planned spaces (we have seem awesome planning here) and this guys response was said to have been, I can put them in the garage...not, I have a set up in the garage to care for them during the winter months--would you like to inspect that ???? seriously?

This man likely had ALL THE BEST INTENTIONS, but as we all know, intentions don't pay the bills.....

I am seriously shocked by the replies here cheering on the continued ill care simply because the big bad animal groups came as a result of a complaint of concern...from that point if the officials that showed up thought that all was cool...they would have done nothing so extensive to have moved/seized these guys....come on now....

I have to agree 100% And recently we were on the subject of neglected , intentionally or not intentionally subject everyone here was oh yeah..someone has to do something about these tortoises being abused..Well un like alot of other people these people actually took there words and put them into action and helped these beautiful creatures.You know I am new to keeping tortoises but I even know better than to keep such a huge tort in such a small enclosure. Just my two cents.

---

I don't think the conditions were all that horrible. It takes time to build the correct type habitats and these people hadn't lived there very long. My aldabs would sit in their mud puddle day and night if I'd let them. They LOVE sitting in the mud. And they DO make noise, but its during breeding. I suppose an ignorant neighbor might construe this sound as a pitiful moaning, but its not.

In my opinion, the officials took the neighbor's word for something without doing their own homework and research and without giving the tortoise owners enough time to rectify what was considered to be a bad situation.

from my understanding they were given notice in august to get there enclosures fixed properly.

 

[drgnfly2265]

It's interesting reading both side of who agrees with who and I can understand where both are coming from. And I love how we can all discuss this and get each others point of view.

I wish I knew the whole story, but I'm sure we never will. There are too many things about this story that make me think that they shouldn't have taken the torts. I literally did a *facepalm* when I read the part about how they shouldn't have water and thought those are the people determining how the tortoises should be living? And the pictures didn't show the whole pen area. If it was as small as they said they could have got a shot of the "whole" thing.

I know that there are some organizations that really do try to help animals and get them out of horrible situations. And I am really happy that they exist. But then again there are others out there that well.....just abuse the power.

And like ascott said, I guess this is the part where I will have to agree to disagree

 

[froghaven5]

I am gonna argue the point on the SPCA I thimk they have to much power most of the time and are just bullies. I think this was a way for the "zoo" to get some aldabs for their exhibits. Like I said I would have put up a fight and of course gotten permits.

Haven't dealt with the SPCA here, but I can comment about the zoo. It is a wonderful zoo that cares very much for their animals that are mostly rescues. In no way do I believe that they just wanted an aldabra for their exhibit. They do have several sulcata and several other tortoise as well. I can't say I know anything about this story except for what I have read. It does seem that the area these aldbra were being kept in was too small. NJ does have crazy rules and permits are necessary. Here in NJ ignorance is no excuse. They expect everyone to know the laws and as annoying as it is to have to get a permit it is simple to do and not very costly. $10/year for as many reptiles that you have.
Again I can't make any comments on how these aldabra were being kept now or prior to them coming to NJ as I only know what was in the article. I think if I have the need to call Dr. Bergmann about 1 of my animals I will ask him about these tortoise.

 

[fbsmith3]

I'm glad someone knows the zoo and they will be treated well.

 

[GeoTerraTestudo]

Hmm ... looks to me like the authorities are in the wrong. These Aldabra tortoises appear to be in fine condition. The lack of a permit does appear to be a problem for these owners, but that should be fixable. Other than that, I'd say the New Jersey authorities are barking up the wrong tree here.

 

[Doritoinmontucky]

I think they should have seperated the smaller ones from the huge ones but they looked health in the pics...