Activity/food search as a component of good care

Kapidolo Farms

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Lots of tortoises breeders tell me give them (tortoises) food as much as they need/want. Lots of breeder live in apartments and give them indoor enclosure as I do. If they have enough food they won't have activity. Even outdoor garden enclosure should give food till full? I don't think people feed dog 'till very full.

@RedFire and I exchange text and this question struck me as a really good one, deserving a wider range of response than I would give.

This is split between two matters,1) might be excercise, and 2) might be the enrichment associated with food quests.

I see the occasional posts that have drilled down on these matters. but as single POV. Do we deny our tortoises some sort of self actualization by keeping them well fed?

I have my own ideas, they are not well articulated to respond yet. I think this is an interesting thing to ponder and there well may not be a good or best answer. But now RedFire has me thinking about this.

@bouaboua can you put this on the "Chinese TFO"?
 

RedFire

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Will, thank you for concerning this. It's very agree with this feed way and most Chinese breeder did in China.
 

Tom

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I think I'm understanding the question…

My answer would involve the comparison animal that @RedFire gave, the dog. No we don't feed our dogs until they are full. Dogs are carnivores. Arguably omnivores. Dogs will gain weight and become obese with too much food. So will most other carnivorous and omnivorous mammals. I'm reminded of a group of raccoons that I used to train. And my baboon. Of course a cat of any species, my hawk, even rats. But these animals are all very different, digestively speaking, than an ectothermic herbivorous reptile.

I would never advocate that anyone free feed any of the above animals. But a tortoise is a different matter. Most strict herbivores would be a different matter. I knew a guy that tried to work a deer through food drive once. He was a pretty stupid guy all around, but I mention it because it didn't go well. Same with rabbits. Food drive (for training purposes…) doesn't really work on them the way it does with other animals. If we feed my camel too much alfalfa, we can get her to gain weight, but if we reduce the ratio and bump it up the level of grass hay instead, she'll lose weight or hold steady.

My recommendation for tortoises has always come with certain qualifications: Tortoises should be housed correctly and free fed as much of the right foods as they want.
 

Grandpa Turtle 144

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I agree with Tom ! But I keep all my torts outside if possible. And in the summer it can get 117 degrees or more and the Or some will stop eating . Witch means the are living on their resources if I've feed them plenty of food . And then I got to feed them all they will cause soon it's winter and they will stop eating and live on their resources again .
That's why I don't understand how you get obeast torts cause if you think it's getting fat let it hibnate !
 

RedFire

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Thank your concerning,Tom. I agree with your animal comparison say, tortoises are different to mammals, especially on the digestively. I think tortoises have less digestively than these mammals, right? So, tortoises need control eating food cause of their slow digestively.
If they have full whey they have activity? In nature, tortoises have activity because they were hungry, it is a major reason usually. So, I think I can use their nature let them have more activity every day.
I made plans for them:1.give them 60-90% full once a day depends on that day. 2.40-50% full twice a day,in the morning and afternoon.
 

bouaboua

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Oh, &Tom, you haven't said why give tortoises full feed, just not mammal?

红火你好:
I do believe Tom already give you the key "criteria" or so call the "reason" you are looking for why he feed his tortoise daily till full?

At the very last part of Tom's reply, he said: [My recommendation for tortoises has always come with certain qualifications: Tortoises should be housed correctly and free fed as much of the right foods as they want.]

So, I will be looking at my tortoise enclosure first, no matter it is a indoor or outdoor one. If your sulcata hatchling are housed in a 60CM X 120 CM (or smaller) aquarium type of enclosure, without visual/sight barrier or proper setup, and the sulcata are fed daily till full, a "obese" animal, in tortoise style, are obvious. Majority of our enclosure are considerably "smaller" compared with those tortoise enthusiasts oversea, so in my opinion, a controlled feeding schedule are necessary.

@Will Yes. I will do so.
 

RedFire

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Thank you all very much who care of. @bouaboua I know @Tom in the last part, I mean just have correct space and not mammals they should have full?
Important:I am not here for against someone, but looking for the deeply truth with very sincerity for a breeder who have very interesting in tortoises. (^_^)
In the last, I appreciate all above you,especially @Will post this thread.
 

Grandpa Turtle 144

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I feel this was a good talk and I hope the people that say feed every other day , read it also ! Thank you !
 

mark1

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I would say it depends what they're eating , the caloric and nutrient density of it .......... something grazing on nutrient sparse foods i'd imagine needs a lot of it , and would spend most of it's day eating , or looking for food ...... something eating nutrient and calorically dense food will need much less of it , they maybe wired to eat all day , but to eat this nutrient calorically dense food would be unnatural and unhealthy ..... I've seen turtles and tortoises so fat they couldn't withdraw into their shells ........ dogs have evolved to gorge themselves , their stomachs can hold an enormous amount of food relative to their size , in captivity we feed them nutrient and calorically dense food/kibble , if they eat that stuff until full it'd be natural but pretty unhealthy for them ...... I do believe foraging for food is psychologically good for animals and I think it prevents neurotic behavior ............
 

Markw84

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The way I see it, the biggest difference to consider is that tortoises / turtles do not gain fat as mammals do. When people refer to gaining fat stores for winter - that is a mammalian issue. Mammals do live off fat reserves when hibernating and need them to carry them through periods of little food availability. Chelonians normally rely on glycogen stores in blood and tissues to provide the little energy they need during times of hibernation/brumation/aestivation. That is why a mammal will get obese when its body store too much fat in preparation for possible hard times. Mammals loose considerable weight, then during a long winter hibernation. Chelonians do not do that. The little weight loss they may have is water loss, not fat loss, as they are using up available glycogen stores, not consuming fat. The added glycogen, and even slightly lower water content, also adds value as a bit of an "antifreeze" as well protecting them from freezing!

So the body and metabolism of chelonians is quite different than mammals in regard to its design, ability, and need to store fat. They just aren't built that way!
 

Tom

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Oh, &Tom, you haven't said why give tortoises full feed, just not mammal?

Mammal and carnivore diets work on quality. Tortoise, elephant and horse diets work on quantity. The foods these last three animals eat are low in nutrient density and/or difficult to digest. Where a house cat or hawk can swallow a mouse and get a lot of good usable energy from that relatively small sized meal, a similarly sized tortoise would have to eat 10 times or more that volume of grasses and weeds to get them same energy value. These types of herbivorous animals need to ingest massive volumes of food to be able to extract enough nutrition to function and grow.

And what @Markw84 said too...
 

Pearly

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Very interesting read here Guys! I'm learning so much from you! Thank you for that! Have really nothing to contribute here, at least nothing of any scientific value, but can tell you what many middle aged women-animal lovers-keepers do in keeping their pets: WE FEED!!!! Yes! We feed our families and our animals. It's a part of an inherent intuitive need to nurture that unless we've done some work to suppress, is a big part of who we are. I am NOT speaking for ALL women, just some-many. We feed our children, our husbands, our ailing elderly grandparents and parents and we feed our animals. We love to FEED:) but seriously, in my own limited to only pet keeping experience, I have never limited amount of food in my house. My dog/cats have always had bowl with dry food ad lib next to their water fountain or bowl, my brief encounter with small aquatics (fish/inverts) always very well fed which in my case may have helped with tank aggression (never had any aggression problems), and now my pet grand-tortoises (which I'm fostering for my 12 yr old daughter for probably the rest of my life, and she then gets them back in my will:)). My juvy torts always get more food than they can consume. If between feedings they clean up their "slate" (feeding tile) I increase their portions. They are still growing. I was going to separate them in their first year after finding this forum, but they are still together and no signs of aggression as of yet. Most of my animal keeping has been with cats which I know doesn't come even close to Tom's knowledge and expertise with mammals but here is what I have done/seen over the past 24 yrs. in multiple cat household, where they all have access to food 24/7 there has been one fat cat (out of 5) who btw was the cutest and sweetest ever, always jovial and happy. I keep pets probably in a very simplistic way. I keep them because they make me happy, I do all I can to learn how to properly care for them and take caring for them very seriously because they depend on me doing the right thing for them and my mistakes may cost them their health or even life so I spare no time/resources to make sure they have what they need. I know one may argue that overfeeding equals "loving them to their death" but I have yet to have bad outcomes, and I think that when animals are gradually getting used to food being provided for them and feel secure about it, where their hunger is just that - HUNGER and not FAMIN when every cell of their body desires nothing more than food, they don't typically overeat. They eat enough to satisfy their needs and walk away knowing there will be more later. Actually I don't know enough about animals to tell if they make conscious decisions based on prior experience. I think they do, but I always tend to see my animals as much greater beings because I love them so much. Anyway, thank you for the topic. Very interesting. Great to learn what everyone thinks:)
 

mark1

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@mark1 you said the unhealthy food, is that pellets food?

I think good quality commercial foods have a lot of science behind them and should be a part of your animals diet , at least any I've had .......... I think turtles and tortoises store fat like most wild animals , turtles carry a higher percent of body fat than tortoises , I would guess diet would account for that , diet having evolved to suit the environment they live in .... I don't know of any northern species of turtle that doesn't eat meat as a substantial part of their diet ...... turtles carry more fat than a deer , they carry the most fat in august , the least in the spring after hibernating , they absolutely need much less stored fat than a hibernating mammal , as their metabolism in winter is like 10x(I don't remember exactly , but it's enormously less) slower than a mammals ....... they are a chemical wonder in their ability to metabolize fat in anaerobic environments and not become acidic ... I've read of gopher tortoises carrying 13% fat ,i'd be interested at the time of year , i'd also wonder what is the fat content of a northern hermans tortoise , compared to species living on the equator , although estivating may require even larger fat stores , which i'd imagine would be tough to get eating grass , I don't know , just a thought ...... sea turtles carry enormous amounts of fat ......... obese reptiles die from the effects of fatty liver , and I believe fat kills many by causing kidney failure also .......... not that I think free feeding for a tortoise will lead to an obese tortoise , I think like tom said , their food is not that nutritious ..... but I do know some turtles would eat to an unhealthy degree ......
 

Big Charlie

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Very interesting read here Guys! I'm learning so much from you! Thank you for that! Have really nothing to contribute here, at least nothing of any scientific value, but can tell you what many middle aged women-animal lovers-keepers do in keeping their pets: WE FEED!!!! Yes! We feed our families and our animals. It's a part of an inherent intuitive need to nurture that unless we've done some work to suppress, is a big part of who we are. I am NOT speaking for ALL women, just some-many. We feed our children, our husbands, our ailing elderly grandparents and parents and we feed our animals. We love to FEED:) but seriously, in my own limited to only pet keeping experience, I have never limited amount of food in my house. My dog/cats have always had bowl with dry food ad lib next to their water fountain or bowl, my brief encounter with small aquatics (fish/inverts) always very well fed which in my case may have helped with tank aggression (never had any aggression problems), and now my pet grand-tortoises (which I'm fostering for my 12 yr old daughter for probably the rest of my life, and she then gets them back in my will:)). My juvy torts always get more food than they can consume. If between feedings they clean up their "slate" (feeding tile) I increase their portions. They are still growing. I was going to separate them in their first year after finding this forum, but they are still together and no signs of aggression as of yet. Most of my animal keeping has been with cats which I know doesn't come even close to Tom's knowledge and expertise with mammals but here is what I have done/seen over the past 24 yrs. in multiple cat household, where they all have access to food 24/7 there has been one fat cat (out of 5) who btw was the cutest and sweetest ever, always jovial and happy. I keep pets probably in a very simplistic way. I keep them because they make me happy, I do all I can to learn how to properly care for them and take caring for them very seriously because they depend on me doing the right thing for them and my mistakes may cost them their health or even life so I spare no time/resources to make sure they have what they need. I know one may argue that overfeeding equals "loving them to their death" but I have yet to have bad outcomes, and I think that when animals are gradually getting used to food being provided for them and feel secure about it, where their hunger is just that - HUNGER and not FAMIN when every cell of their body desires nothing more than food, they don't typically overeat. They eat enough to satisfy their needs and walk away knowing there will be more later. Actually I don't know enough about animals to tell if they make conscious decisions based on prior experience. I think they do, but I always tend to see my animals as much greater beings because I love them so much. Anyway, thank you for the topic. Very interesting. Great to learn what everyone thinks:)
Most people "free feed" themselves and only a percentage end up obese. I would imagine the same is true with your pets.

My tortoise gets a lot of exercise on his own, and not because he is searching for food. He spends a lot of time pacing in an area where nothing grows, while there is plenty to eat in the rest of the yard. My dog was less likely to exercise on his own. He needed something to stimulate him, like a cat to chase, or someone to play with.
 

mark1

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I don't believe an animal expends energy without a purpose , exercise not being one of these purposes .... i'd think evolution has gotten rid of the ones who waste energy ...............pacing is a common behavior in captive animals , you won't see it in nature ........ I've found hunger leads to diet diversity ........ again not saying a tortoise that is eating a natural diet should not have unlimited access to food , I don't believe their natural diet is very nutritious or high in calories ..... I've seen obese snapping turtles , blanding's turtles , eastern box turtles , mud and musk turtles , the only obese tortoise I've seen was a horsefield , being a cold weather tortoise perhaps they are more prone to store fat ?
 

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